I keep looking for the translation because I don't own the game, therefore can't go digging in the files, but I haven't found it yet. Arvo spit and his tone was sneering, so it was most likely an insult to Kenny.
To give you a reason would be justifying it--you can't justify shooting anyone. All I said was that I understood, I didn't say that he was in the right.
I doubt I can ever forgive Arvo for shooting my Clem while she was peacefully handing Mike her gun, and after she'd spent the entire Episode sticking up for him. Fuck Arvo. The shootout, the death glares, the running across the ice, I stood with him through it all. And he repaid my kindness with a bullet.
For the last time; I'm not trying to make people feel sympathy, forgiveness or /anything/ for Arvo--he shot a person; age or gender or condition doesn't matter, a person is a person and that is fucking horrible. What I'm trying to do is to get people to /understand/ Arvo. He had his reasons just like anyone else did--it's just putting things into perspective. Again, this isn't a sympathy plea, this is an in-depth look at the emotional and logical process behind his actions, so we can understand why he made the shitty decision to shoot an eleven year old.
I doubt I can ever forgive Arvo for shooting my Clem while she was peacefully handing Mike her gun, and after she'd spent the entire Episode… more sticking up for him. Fuck Arvo. The shootout, the death glares, the running across the ice, I stood with him through it all. And he repaid my kindness with a bullet.
Fuck. That.
To give you a reason would be justifying it--you can't justify shooting anyone. All I said was that I understood, I didn't say that he was in the right.
I want people to understand that Arvo made the wrong and bad decision and frankly, shouldn't be given any sympathy or pity. People should understand this, when Clem killed his sister, he wanted her and Kenny dead.
At this point in the apocalypse, hardly anyone can be considered a 'good guy'--it all boils down to perspective. Also, this whole thing isn'… moret to make people think he is a good person, or to give him sympathy. It's so people understand that Arvo--like pretty much everyone else--has made shitty decisions. It's out of understanding, not pity or symapthy.
I have to say, I appreciate your efforts for trying to get people to understand Arvo's point of view. Everything is so black and white, when you're considering the person on the opposite side, the "enemy". I dont like what Arvo did to Clem. My Clem was trying to help him the whole way. But I do understand that people go to extremes when they're pushed and he is barely older than her himself. Its a wonder anyone in the zombie apocalypse can survive all the horrors without cracking.
For the last time; I'm not trying to make people feel sympathy, forgiveness or /anything/ for Arvo--he shot a person; age or gender or condi… moretion doesn't matter, a person is a person and that is fucking horrible. What I'm trying to do is to get people to /understand/ Arvo. He had his reasons just like anyone else did--it's just putting things into perspective. Again, this isn't a sympathy plea, this is an in-depth look at the emotional and logical process behind his actions, so we can understand why he made the shitty decision to shoot an eleven year old.
I'm not sure and I haven't checked, but I think someone said it was that he 'wasn't afraid to shoot a little girl', or something along the lines of that. Like I say, that's not definite, just what I heard...
I discussed the lake scenario in my original post--please have a look at it again. Also, it depends on the choice you make. I forget what option it is, but when Clementine expresses worry, Kenny says "The fastest why between two things is a straight line" meaning, he was for it as well.
So just a question, are you assuming that the house was on an island in the middle of that lake? Cause it obviously wasn't considering the t… moreruck and the fact that they drove away in said truck meaning that there was another way across that didn't involve walking on a frozen lake. And Arvo had lived in that house so he knew about this. When the others are discussing another way around, he absolutely insisted they go across the lake. Then after everything goes to hell, he gives Clementine a look that lends more proof that he was hoping to kill her or that he was glad her friend was dead. I think he really planned for a happy accident to happen there and as you said, he was more familiar with the area so he had confidence he could cross it. And honestly, would you rather be the person in the front or the back of the line? By the time everyone else has trampled on that ice, it's gonna be a lot less sturdy.
And I appreciate this! I mean, all I'm trying to is get people to see the other side and a good chunk are just yelling and calling me an idiot. I can't help it if it's the way I was brought up---I used to have a best friend who was exactly like Mike, no matter what they did to him, he always said to 'treat them better than they treated you. Don't let them drag you down.'
I'm barely 18 myself, and I snap over the littlest things. I sure as well wouldn't have been as sikeubmissive to being constantly abused mentally and from a racist standpoint, beaten multiple times (it's determinant, but if you don't send Kenny to the fire during the first night, he beats Arvo when he screams at Mike), and then tied up like a prisoner.
I have to say, I appreciate your efforts for trying to get people to understand Arvo's point of view. Everything is so black and white, when… more you're considering the person on the opposite side, the "enemy". I dont like what Arvo did to Clem. My Clem was trying to help him the whole way. But I do understand that people go to extremes when they're pushed and he is barely older than her himself. Its a wonder anyone in the zombie apocalypse can survive all the horrors without cracking.
I didnt see that part. I really didnt like that Kenny was treating Arvo like a punching bag. I feel like it had less to do with what Arvo's group did to them and more to do with Kenny just having someone to vent his rage on. I was getting tired of all the times I kept having someone step in and try to calm him down.
And I appreciate this! I mean, all I'm trying to is get people to see the other side and a good chunk are just yelling and calling me an idi… moreot. I can't help it if it's the way I was brought up---I used to have a best friend who was exactly like Mike, no matter what they did to him, he always said to 'treat them better than they treated you. Don't let them drag you down.'
I'm barely 18 myself, and I snap over the littlest things. I sure as well wouldn't have been as sikeubmissive to being constantly abused mentally and from a racist standpoint, beaten multiple times (it's determinant, but if you don't send Kenny to the fire during the first night, he beats Arvo when he screams at Mike), and then tied up like a prisoner.
I'm sure the Stranger wasn't a bad person either--he was just a dad who coached Little League who, regardless of your choice, gets his life ruined when Lee's group raids the car.
I guess Carver wasnt a bad person either? I mean sure he made some "bad decisions" but he did it because -insert bullshit excuse that tries to justify trying to kill someone-
I want people to understand that Arvo made the wrong and bad decision and frankly, shouldn't be given any sympathy or pity. People should understand this, when Clem killed his sister, he wanted her and Kenny dead.
Maybe to get more sympathy? I know I didnt rob him cuz when he said "sick sister" I imagined a little kid.
Also, the Russian translation … moreapparently says that they were yelling at us to give back their medicine, even if we didnt take it, so obviously he was hiding it from them and then blamed it on us when they noticed it was missing. Considering he was the only one who spoke English it was a perfect plan since we couldnt tell them the truth. And it makes NO SENSE to leave something as valuable as medical supplies unattended just cuz you dont want to carry an extra bag.
I take issue with you labeling shooting people as a "bad decision".
I also don't believe that he was in any way irrational from grief or whatever, since he didn't try to attack Mike and Bonnie. He was going to calmly leave with them. Shooting Clem at that point was not "heat of the moment". It was intent. And he had 2 days to come to the conclusion that his sister couldn't have resuscitated herself (you do CPR because the heart has stopped) and that the only way she would have been moving is if she had died and come back as a zombie. The kid tried to murder a little girl because he blames her for something that is his own fault. There is nothing more to understand here.
I'm sure the Stranger wasn't a bad person either--he was just a dad who coached Little League who, regardless of your choice, gets his life ruined when Lee's group raids the car.
Okay I see your point, it's not for pity. Its to understand his character and his mistakes.
All I'm saying is that I can't accept or understand why he did what he did.
I dont think the Stranger even was a bad person. He wasnt mentally there. He couldnt handle the hardships he went through, thanks to our group unfortunately, and he cracked.
You just said, in the post right above mine, that the Stranger wasn't a bad person either?? The title of your post was literally " Arvo:Emotional Bad Decisions Does Not A Bad Person Make".
(Hmm, maybe we misunderstood each other cuz I used the past tense when referring to Carver. I used it cuz he is dead and not as in "I guess Carver wasnt a bad person before the ZA either?")
You just said, in the post right above mine, that the Stranger wasn't a bad person either?? The title of your post was literally " Arvo:Emot… moreional Bad Decisions Does Not A Bad Person Make".
(Hmm, maybe we misunderstood each other cuz I used the past tense when referring to Carver. I used it cuz he is dead and not as in "I guess Carver wasnt a bad person before the ZA either?")
Those are all really well thought out and consistent points defending a very unpopular opinion. It seems to be a problem on this board of people being unable to see things from more than one point of view. I was disappointed that there wasn't an extended conversation moment with him, especially considering the kind of impact he had on the group. But then again, that might have been a deliberate intention.
At the risk of starting yet another flame war, I would also like to add that Kenny's treatment of him so soon after the incident with the other Russians (and subsequently, his sister) also might have contributed to his colored opinion of Clem and the rest of the group, and contributed to what is likely a myriad list of reasons why he (probably out of fear) pulled the trigger in the end.
That is a vast oversimplification of what are likely a bunch of different factors (some of them we can't even begin to know) for why they wanted to leave.
Was it the right choice? Or even a good one? That's a debatable opinion. But I can at the very least see where they are coming from even if I don't necessarily agree with it.
I don't think the writers tried to paint him as a villain really at all, and that is merely the reaction a bunch of people have because they only want to focus on his "shoot Clem" deed. If you ask me, he was painted as a victim the entire time. From his desperate (if futile) attempts to stop the aforementioned standoff, to his constant treatment at Kenny's hands even though he was tied up and cooperating, to being savagely beaten based on paranoid assumptions.
Really, beyond maybe being the catalyst for the standoff in the first place (an really, that was probably more Jane's fault for taking his gun upon the first meeting), what has he really done that paints him as a villain before the standoff with Clem?
I don't think he knew that, though. Approaching the end of episode four, Arvo notably became more and more hysteric. I can barely speak Russ… moreian myself, but the translations say he was all but begging both sides 'Put your guns down! Please! I don't want to die! I don't want to die!' and then when his sister got shot... that was it, I think he sort of just shut down mentally. When a person reaches that level of a mental breakdown, they very rarely look at things logically because they are driven purely by emotions. He most likely /thought/ that he could save her, hence why he didn't abandon her in fear of his own safety, and why he wrestled to get back to her after Kenny held him hostage. Maybe by her re-animating.. he thought it had worked? She was crawling, as if trying to escape and get her strength back so... maybe. But by Clementine shooting her, he twisted it around in his head that it was /her/ fault. That much I can see.
I thought th… [view original content]
Did everyone forget that Arvo blamed the entire group for the actions of Jane? Also, Jane took his weapon but Clementine chose to not take anything from the bag. He could have lightened the situation by explaining to his group that all Jane took was his weapon and that Clementine returned his meds. Also, while everyones also on the Arvo pity wagon, I can turn the discussion around. Why didn't Arno feel some sympathy for Clementine as well? I mean we are in a world where normally good folks are forced to do bad things, what about Arno giving a little of that understanding out when he explained how he lost his weapon to his group. All the negativity between Kenny and Arno stems from the groups clashing at the end of episode 4.
At the end of the day, it comes down to the decisions a person makes whether it be Rick, Lee or Clementine or Arvo. A decision, good or bad, is still a choice and responsibility must be taken.
"But I can at the very least see where they are coming from even if I don't necessarily agree with it."
Thank you. That's the only thing I was trying to accomplish with this. A lot of people on this thread are just disregarding that, and either flat out saying I'm an idiot, or abusing me in some other way.
That is a vast oversimplification of what are likely a bunch of different factors (some of them we can't even begin to know) for why they wa… morented to leave.
Was it the right choice? Or even a good one? That's a debatable opinion. But I can at the very least see where they are coming from even if I don't necessarily agree with it.
i do sympathise with avro but he shot a little girl who was kind to him from the start when she meets him told off her friend who wanted to steal from him and said how sorry she was for his sister and stood up to a raging grown man to protect him and was willing to leave with his group and take the baby together that's my clementine she shot kenny and left with g i jane i'll bet we will see them at the howes later and if they'll sorry my clementine will forgive them but she won't forget just like with jane
Thank you. Regardless if people agree or not, I appreciate it when people appreciate the effort and thought into this. Yet, a lot of people are refusing to completely read what I wrote and are accusing me of trying to force pity on him and are insulting me and all this other needless abuse.
Those are all really well thought out and consistent points defending a very unpopular opinion. It seems to be a problem on this board of pe… moreople being unable to see things from more than one point of view. I was disappointed that there wasn't an extended conversation moment with him, especially considering the kind of impact he had on the group. But then again, that might have been a deliberate intention.
At the risk of starting yet another flame war, I would also like to add that Kenny's treatment of him so soon after the incident with the other Russians (and subsequently, his sister) also might have contributed to his colored opinion of Clem and the rest of the group, and contributed to what is likely a myriad list of reasons why he (probably out of fear) pulled the trigger in the end.
I never said that he isn't responsible, nor should he be pitied.
For. The. Last. Time. This entire discussion (it's even written in the original post, if you'd /read/ it) is not to make people pity or sympathize with someone who, ultimately, shot an unarmed person. It's to get people to understand his reasoning and see that there are two sides to everything. Pity him or don't, I don't care.
Did everyone forget that Arvo blamed the entire group for the actions of Jane? Also, Jane took his weapon but Clementine chose to not take … moreanything from the bag. He could have lightened the situation by explaining to his group that all Jane took was his weapon and that Clementine returned his meds. Also, while everyones also on the Arvo pity wagon, I can turn the discussion around. Why didn't Arno feel some sympathy for Clementine as well? I mean we are in a world where normally good folks are forced to do bad things, what about Arno giving a little of that understanding out when he explained how he lost his weapon to his group. All the negativity between Kenny and Arno stems from the groups clashing at the end of episode 4.
At the end of the day, it comes down to the decisions a person makes whether it be Rick, Lee or Clementine or Arvo. A decision, good or bad, is still a choice and responsibility must be taken.
And I respect what you are trying to accomplish. There needs to be more people who can see a situation and not automatically demonize those involved. I'm sure for all the evil things Carver did, and I do believe killing him was a necessary evil, we can still afford some levity to see how things got the way they did for him mentally.
But this is the internet dude. You can't take it personally when there are those who berate you for taking what is an unpopular stance. They merely show their own ignorance and should just be ignored, if of course you don't want to try to continue refuting them, which can be fun in its own right. =P
"But I can at the very least see where they are coming from even if I don't necessarily agree with it."
Thank you. That's the only thing … moreI was trying to accomplish with this. A lot of people on this thread are just disregarding that, and either flat out saying I'm an idiot, or abusing me in some other way.
Comments
I keep looking for the translation because I don't own the game, therefore can't go digging in the files, but I haven't found it yet. Arvo spit and his tone was sneering, so it was most likely an insult to Kenny.
To give you a reason would be justifying it--you can't justify shooting anyone. All I said was that I understood, I didn't say that he was in the right.
I doubt I can ever forgive Arvo for shooting my Clem while she was peacefully handing Mike her gun, and after she'd spent the entire Episode sticking up for him. Fuck Arvo. The shootout, the death glares, the running across the ice, I stood with him through it all. And he repaid my kindness with a bullet.
Fuck. That.
For the last time; I'm not trying to make people feel sympathy, forgiveness or /anything/ for Arvo--he shot a person; age or gender or condition doesn't matter, a person is a person and that is fucking horrible. What I'm trying to do is to get people to /understand/ Arvo. He had his reasons just like anyone else did--it's just putting things into perspective. Again, this isn't a sympathy plea, this is an in-depth look at the emotional and logical process behind his actions, so we can understand why he made the shitty decision to shoot an eleven year old.
But you said there was a reason behind it, if so then what?
Read my original post again, why don't you.
I want people to understand that Arvo made the wrong and bad decision and frankly, shouldn't be given any sympathy or pity. People should understand this, when Clem killed his sister, he wanted her and Kenny dead.
I have to say, I appreciate your efforts for trying to get people to understand Arvo's point of view. Everything is so black and white, when you're considering the person on the opposite side, the "enemy". I dont like what Arvo did to Clem. My Clem was trying to help him the whole way. But I do understand that people go to extremes when they're pushed and he is barely older than her himself. Its a wonder anyone in the zombie apocalypse can survive all the horrors without cracking.
I'm not sure and I haven't checked, but I think someone said it was that he 'wasn't afraid to shoot a little girl', or something along the lines of that. Like I say, that's not definite, just what I heard...
I discussed the lake scenario in my original post--please have a look at it again. Also, it depends on the choice you make. I forget what option it is, but when Clementine expresses worry, Kenny says "The fastest why between two things is a straight line" meaning, he was for it as well.
I would but I just find lots of it wrong, in my personal perspective.
And I appreciate this! I mean, all I'm trying to is get people to see the other side and a good chunk are just yelling and calling me an idiot. I can't help it if it's the way I was brought up---I used to have a best friend who was exactly like Mike, no matter what they did to him, he always said to 'treat them better than they treated you. Don't let them drag you down.'
I'm barely 18 myself, and I snap over the littlest things. I sure as well wouldn't have been as sikeubmissive to being constantly abused mentally and from a racist standpoint, beaten multiple times (it's determinant, but if you don't send Kenny to the fire during the first night, he beats Arvo when he screams at Mike), and then tied up like a prisoner.
I didnt see that part. I really didnt like that Kenny was treating Arvo like a punching bag. I feel like it had less to do with what Arvo's group did to them and more to do with Kenny just having someone to vent his rage on. I was getting tired of all the times I kept having someone step in and try to calm him down.
I'm sure the Stranger wasn't a bad person either--he was just a dad who coached Little League who, regardless of your choice, gets his life ruined when Lee's group raids the car.
Read my article again. This whole thing isn't to make people feel pity, so stop with that.
For the last time, stop with the 'I'm pitying him' bull you keep pushing on me.
I take issue with you labeling shooting people as a "bad decision".
I also don't believe that he was in any way irrational from grief or whatever, since he didn't try to attack Mike and Bonnie. He was going to calmly leave with them. Shooting Clem at that point was not "heat of the moment". It was intent. And he had 2 days to come to the conclusion that his sister couldn't have resuscitated herself (you do CPR because the heart has stopped) and that the only way she would have been moving is if she had died and come back as a zombie. The kid tried to murder a little girl because he blames her for something that is his own fault. There is nothing more to understand here.
When Kenny is mentioned Arvo spits and says that Kenny's an evil man.
He became a bad person when he decided to kill Lee. Just like Lilly became a bad person when she decided to kill Carley.
Did I say that Arvo and The Stranger weren't bad people? No, I didn't. I am aware that those bad choices were what changed how we look at them.
I appreciate your effort
but Arvo is an asshole and the only thing I'm trying to understand is why we weren't given the option to kill him
Okay I see your point, it's not for pity. Its to understand his character and his mistakes.
All I'm saying is that I can't accept or understand why he did what he did.
I tried my best. I'd just appreciate the influx of people who are calling me an idiot or yelling to stop for trying to understand both people.
I dont think the Stranger even was a bad person. He wasnt mentally there. He couldnt handle the hardships he went through, thanks to our group unfortunately, and he cracked.
You dont have any sympathy for the way Kenny was treating him? Beating him while he was already tied up and defenseless?
I'm not calling you an idiot. Hell, I respect you trying to defend a character, its not easy to do.
I'm just saying my opinion on Arvo...
No, no, no, not you specifically--just a general statement.
For. The. Last. Time. This isn't a post to try and make people feel sympathy for him.
You just said, in the post right above mine, that the Stranger wasn't a bad person either?? The title of your post was literally " Arvo:Emotional Bad Decisions Does Not A Bad Person Make".
(Hmm, maybe we misunderstood each other cuz I used the past tense when referring to Carver. I used it cuz he is dead and not as in "I guess Carver wasnt a bad person before the ZA either?")
The Stranger /wasn't/ a bad person /before/ he had his car raided. That's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.
Those are all really well thought out and consistent points defending a very unpopular opinion. It seems to be a problem on this board of people being unable to see things from more than one point of view. I was disappointed that there wasn't an extended conversation moment with him, especially considering the kind of impact he had on the group. But then again, that might have been a deliberate intention.
At the risk of starting yet another flame war, I would also like to add that Kenny's treatment of him so soon after the incident with the other Russians (and subsequently, his sister) also might have contributed to his colored opinion of Clem and the rest of the group, and contributed to what is likely a myriad list of reasons why he (probably out of fear) pulled the trigger in the end.
That is a vast oversimplification of what are likely a bunch of different factors (some of them we can't even begin to know) for why they wanted to leave.
Was it the right choice? Or even a good one? That's a debatable opinion. But I can at the very least see where they are coming from even if I don't necessarily agree with it.
Okay okay, sorry. I just think that abuse factored into how he ended up reacting later.
I don't think the writers tried to paint him as a villain really at all, and that is merely the reaction a bunch of people have because they only want to focus on his "shoot Clem" deed. If you ask me, he was painted as a victim the entire time. From his desperate (if futile) attempts to stop the aforementioned standoff, to his constant treatment at Kenny's hands even though he was tied up and cooperating, to being savagely beaten based on paranoid assumptions.
Really, beyond maybe being the catalyst for the standoff in the first place (an really, that was probably more Jane's fault for taking his gun upon the first meeting), what has he really done that paints him as a villain before the standoff with Clem?
Did everyone forget that Arvo blamed the entire group for the actions of Jane? Also, Jane took his weapon but Clementine chose to not take anything from the bag. He could have lightened the situation by explaining to his group that all Jane took was his weapon and that Clementine returned his meds. Also, while everyones also on the Arvo pity wagon, I can turn the discussion around. Why didn't Arno feel some sympathy for Clementine as well? I mean we are in a world where normally good folks are forced to do bad things, what about Arno giving a little of that understanding out when he explained how he lost his weapon to his group. All the negativity between Kenny and Arno stems from the groups clashing at the end of episode 4.
At the end of the day, it comes down to the decisions a person makes whether it be Rick, Lee or Clementine or Arvo. A decision, good or bad, is still a choice and responsibility must be taken.
"But I can at the very least see where they are coming from even if I don't necessarily agree with it."
Thank you. That's the only thing I was trying to accomplish with this. A lot of people on this thread are just disregarding that, and either flat out saying I'm an idiot, or abusing me in some other way.
i do sympathise with avro but he shot a little girl who was kind to him from the start when she meets him told off her friend who wanted to steal from him and said how sorry she was for his sister and stood up to a raging grown man to protect him and was willing to leave with his group and take the baby together that's my clementine she shot kenny and left with g i jane i'll bet we will see them at the howes later and if they'll sorry my clementine will forgive them but she won't forget just like with jane
Thank you. Regardless if people agree or not, I appreciate it when people appreciate the effort and thought into this. Yet, a lot of people are refusing to completely read what I wrote and are accusing me of trying to force pity on him and are insulting me and all this other needless abuse.
I never said that he isn't responsible, nor should he be pitied.
For. The. Last. Time. This entire discussion (it's even written in the original post, if you'd /read/ it) is not to make people pity or sympathize with someone who, ultimately, shot an unarmed person. It's to get people to understand his reasoning and see that there are two sides to everything. Pity him or don't, I don't care.
And I respect what you are trying to accomplish. There needs to be more people who can see a situation and not automatically demonize those involved. I'm sure for all the evil things Carver did, and I do believe killing him was a necessary evil, we can still afford some levity to see how things got the way they did for him mentally.
But this is the internet dude. You can't take it personally when there are those who berate you for taking what is an unpopular stance. They merely show their own ignorance and should just be ignored, if of course you don't want to try to continue refuting them, which can be fun in its own right. =P