^^^ That is the most perfect breakdown of Janes character! I had forgotten how she used and manipulated Troy... shes dangerous! Very very dangerous, because you cant see what shes doing, until too late
I don't understand it either. I've gone back and played the episodes since Jane's debut, and it's disturbing to see just how wrong I was abo… moreut her. She truly doesn't seem to care about anyone's feelings but her own. And I'm not sorry for this, but when she has that creepy smile on her face before she shoots Troy in the dick, that just screams "sick in the head" to me. Also, Jane's and Troy's interactions suggest she was extremely manipulative with him prior to escaping, and yes Troy was an asshole, but I can't be the only one who is weirded out by how easily she threw him to the walkers.(she didn't even kill him, she shot him in the frickin dick!) Or how nonchalant she acts about getting rid of Rebecca's baby, I understand that the baby is a liability, but to talk about such a touchy subject that is already weighing heavily on Rebecca's mind so casually is not ok. The only times when she seems to show true emotion, as in actually caring about… [view original content]
Reading the comments on this thread shows how people can see the facts differently from a same reality.
First of all, I'l say that though I'm not a Kenny hater, I never really thought his character to be that interesting in Season 1. More than often was he at the beginning of dissension in the group, arguing with everyone not agreeing with him, Lee included.
And I thought that reintroducing him in Season 2 wasn't a good idea...until this last epsiode.
This discussion is interesting except for one point. he thread goes on one main point : "The Good Guy Kenny was made killed by the Bad Girl Jane" leaving you with two option : agree or disagrée (and by disagreeing, be ready to face some harsh comments) whenactually, it's more complicated thant that.
Here's my point of view reacting on what I read :
1) the "Jane wanted to kill Kenny" opinion : that one comes all along the 5 pages of comments. As I see it, I'd say no, she didn't plan to kill him. But yes, she wanted to put Kenny in rage to prove her point that Kenny is becoming more unstable. if she just wanted to kill him, why put her knife down? just because she wanted to fight Kenny, and probably get killed by him? All the episodes with in season 2 shows she'll never trie to put her life in danger for no reason.
And if she wanted to kill him, why did she save him from the Russian guy? I ould have been way much easier to let the russian guy kill Kenny then joining Clem' and the group...
2) "Kenny's attacking Jane because he thinks she killed the baby" : Again, what I felt isn't the same fact as this line. Actually, Kenny's attacking Jane because he held her responsible for the loss of the baby, no matter what circumstances led to that loss. My point of view is that if it was Clementine who came in that store, telling she lost the baby, you would have the same reaction of Kenny without Clementine having a chance to explian how she lost the baby (and though I'm pretty sure he won't kill her, he would beat her VERY badly).
Finally, all this season shows a normal guy going downhill following the hard situations he lived. each time Kenny loses someone of his "family", he loses a bit of his humanity. First, it was his son and wife and that's pretty strong to endure. then he met Sarita and gained a bit of sunshine:then lost her and he fell deeper then AJ shows up, a bit and his loss is what detonates the Kenny bomb. And if you look well, Kenny always reacted like that : Direct judgment, direct sentences and we'll see later for the circumstances (and many times, later, he feels guilty realizing he was wrong. Remember how he was ready to abandon Ben because he held him responsible for Duck and Katja's deaths and finally redeemed himself by trying to save him later when he understoods Ben lived harsh situations too).
3) "Kenny always acts for the group/tries to protect his "family" : On that point, I will partially agree. He's an action man and when things turn wrong, you can count on him to react instinctly. The thing is that out of action, he acts in despotic ways : "My path, my lead!"..."My boat, My choice of people in it!"..."My car repaired, My direction!"...And most of all, during the end of season 2, you could see Kenny's going down the Carver's way. the beating of Arvo (well, actually, the torturing) was the first step of Kenny becoming a new Carver. And the way he looked angry at Clementine when she glared at him afraid after he beat bad Arvo in the house (because he thought Arvo tried to kill on the ice lake) and saying to her harshly :"What? Don't like it anymore?" (I guess this line's only said if you watched Kenny beating Carver to death).
And that's the main reason I killed Kenny in my first playthrough, because he was slowly becoming another Carver :Protective with his people as long as they follow his directives even if these are morally undenfendable..And remeber that from their point of view, every tyrant did bad things for good reasons.
And even Kenny, feels it. if not killed by clem, when finding the baby, he tries to convince himself Jane was unstable tnen finally agrees (with one answer of clem) that himself is dangerous, that something broke into himself...and if you kill him, he said to clem "you did the right thing". A part of it is to ease Clem a bit. But mostly, he said that because he understood how mad and dangerous he was becoming and that on one point, this will end his sufferings (though after that, he sayd he's afraid to die...but who wouldn't)
4) "Jane is selfish and unstable" : here too, i'll partially agree. In majority, she thinks of her own safety first. And I guess this selfishness comes from one case : she doesn't want any form of responsibility on other's life and most of all, she doesn't want to suffer emotionally for the loss of new friends/relatives. However, if she was so selfish, why did she join back the group on the road? Why did she save Clem from the lake? just only to have a new "sister"....that's way way too simple.
On the unstable fact, i'll agree. We can never know how she will react confronted to a situation. But if we have to pardon Kenny for his bad reactions due to the hard situations he lived, maybe should we look too on Jane's past : A girl in her early twenties, maybe less, who lost her family too, who was member of groups that turned bad.disbanded/got killed by zombies, who probably got raped by Troy (and maybe others from Carver's group or former meetings on her road), etc...if your'e ready to pardon Kenny for being unstable, you can't blame Jane for being it too
Some said she could have put an end to the fight by telling the baby was alive. Do these really think Kenny would have passed the brush on Jane having put the baby in danger?
As a conclusion, I'd say that there are no good or bad choice at the end of this episode. Side with Kenny and you're on with a new Carver in the future; side with Jane and be exposed to be left alone someday...or side with no one and it's you with a baby vs the Zombie world
XD XD XD XD XD Why!? ROFL!!! This is the funniest comment I've read so far lol! But seriously Kenny had nothing to do with Luke's death. So why would you want him dead because of Luke's death?
i played no going back four days ago and the percentage for killing kenny was 43% and it changed one day later. the game showed 70% for killing kenny and it hasn't changed for 2 days.it still shows 30% for that.
I don't think it's suspicious. Not too many people are going to notice the things that make Jane questionable and I doubt those who blindly follow Kenny are as numerous as they seem on the forums.
i played no going back four days ago and the percentage for killing kenny was 43% and it changed one day later. the game showed 70% for killing kenny and it hasn't changed for 2 days.it still shows 30% for that.
it's suspicious!!!!!
Jane revealed Kenny's true nature, that he would kill any of them for disagreeing with him or making a mistake. To be honest I didn't need convincing, he was a mad dog out of control and needed to be put down.
No she put it away to make herself not so obvious. If she was too obvious that she wanted to kill him, Clem wouldn't forgive her or side with her or at least not so easily. She even later stabs him, so just because she puts it away doesn't mean she isn't going to use it again. That's BS. If she threw it on the ground so neither could get it, that'd be different. If she didn't want to have any fight at all, like I said if Clem takes him off her, Jane should have either backed off more or ran, not try to beat Kenny when he's down. If she was all "stop stop please don't hurt me" or something like that, then yeah she would be trying to stop it more not taunting him instead, thus provoking the fight. There's no getting around it, Jane wanted that fight 100%.
lol you wouldn't feel threatened if someone pulls a knife on you if you attacked first? I don't care if you have a gun instead of your fists, you're going to feel threatened when someone has a weapon, period. Don't be unrealistic. Jane didn't do anything to stop the fight, she egged it on. She wanted it. If Jane instead covered herself or ran and said "stop stop stop, please don't hurt me!" Then yes, it'd be more reasonable to react that hey maybe I'm getting too violent here and freaking people out. But that didn't happen and instead she added fuel to the flames, since this was everything she was working for.
Yeah Jane saved them at that point but she still followed them without the group knowing about it. If she didn't reveal herself then, who's to say Jane wouldn't have tried to steal the car or even Clem when no one was looking?
I wouldn't feel threatened if it was in obvious fear or defense of me. That'd be a realization that I shouldn't be freaking people out like,… more more so in front of Clem. You're just nitpicking with the knife pulling to provoke part. i don't condone what she did with the baby or Kenny, but he was the physical aggressor in that. She saved them so unsure what you mean by following them
I really don't get how someone can murder Kenny after the 2 seasons that they have been with him. Kenny is like a father to Clementine how c… moreould you kill someone like that, who loves you and would do anything to protect you. Not to mention he was Lees best friend and devoted to raising AJ right!
Jane was repeatedly encouraging Clem to let people die. She did it with Sarah, she did it with Luke, and had she been around for more deaths she would've probably kept saying "It's too late, give up." Oh yeah I want my Clem to be with her.
Sorry but I just couldn't watch Kenny just kill Jane like that. Plus he made it perfectly clear multiple times that he was ready to die. The man was suffering so I felt that I was doing him a favor. That's my excuse.
I can't see why so many people are siding with Jane in that moment. At least not if you are trying to really play as Clem (and not as the pl… moreayer yourself).
Kenny: A very good friend of yours, since the beginning of the ZA + the last person who also knew Lee (and was his friend if you played that way). Even if Kenny was a bit hostile to Lee in your playthrough, he was always nice to Clementine. Another thing was, that Clem knew Kenny as a good person and felt kind of responsible for him too, since everyone was telling her that she is the only one who can "controll" him.
A.J. : You saw that Clem saw him as a little brother and would do anything for him.
Jane: Clem knew her for a relativly short time and liked her. She helped Clem in surviving and wanted to teach her how to become a better survivour. I am pretty sure that Clem liked her a lot too but more as a cool person and friend.
The scenario how I saw it through Clem's eyes: First, both… [view original content]
I agree that was more of a breaking point instead of true nature. All the man was trying to do was keep Clem and the baby safe. Trying to do that with a group of people that don't trust you while in a zombie apocalypse is more than enough to drive anyone over the edge.
That wasn't Kenny's "true nature" it was his breaking point! After which he returns to his normal self and shows how much he really cares about Clementine and AJ when he begs and cries for Wellington to take them in while he leaves on his own.
Yeah I'm one those who didn't catch on to what made Jane questionable. Would you mind sharing why she was questionable to you? I'm legit asking out of curiosity. I did question Jane's reason for coming back but I assumed that she started to view Clem as another little sister. She had already abandoned one and I figured she couldn't handle abandoning another.
I don't think it's suspicious. Not too many people are going to notice the things that make Jane questionable and I doubt those who blindly follow Kenny are as numerous as they seem on the forums.
She stated that she didn't want to kill Kenny, she talked about how her plan was only to show what Kenny was capable of so that Clementine knew that she wouldn't be safe with Kenny. She stabs him out of self-defence, he was charging at her, also, Kenny uses the same knife to stab her in the leg and try to kill her with it. You can't actually prove that she wanted the fight, just because there is evidence doesn't mean that she actually intended to do so, do you forget that Kenny provokes Jane first? He talks about how Jane is a bad influence, how Jane is a bad person and insults her behind her back, he talks about how she was nothing, how she cares for no one and that no one cared for her, if anything, Kenny is the one that caused the fight with Jane.
No she put it away to make herself not so obvious. If she was too obvious that she wanted to kill him, Clem wouldn't forgive her or side wit… moreh her or at least not so easily. She even later stabs him, so just because she puts it away doesn't mean she isn't going to use it again. That's BS. If she threw it on the ground so neither could get it, that'd be different. If she didn't want to have any fight at all, like I said if Clem takes him off her, Jane should have either backed off more or ran, not try to beat Kenny when he's down. If she was all "stop stop please don't hurt me" or something like that, then yeah she would be trying to stop it more not taunting him instead, thus provoking the fight. There's no getting around it, Jane wanted that fight 100%.
I knew she didn't kill it, I paid as much attention as I could to her character and I knew what her intentions were as soon as she made it to the pit stop.
Kenny has many flaws, and I acknowledge that. I'm not a Kenny fan, I don't really even like him, but it was because I thought the baby was a… morectually dead. Given Jane's shady background, and how hard it would be for her to accidentally lose the baby, as you can't just drop it, and the walkers were frozen, I thought she killed it. I was so pissed at Jane, I wanted to shoot her myself.
I figured out that she didn't kill it near the end, but I saw how she was trying to manipulate Clementine. I just couldn't kill Kenny, even if I didn't like him that much.
I knew she didn't kill it, I paid as much attention as I could to her character and I knew what her intentions were as soon as she made it to the pit stop.
I figured out that she didn't kill it near the end, but I saw how she was trying to manipulate Clementine. I just couldn't kill Kenny, even if I didn't like him that much.
Even if Jane and Kenny survived in Season 3 and this time she lost the baby to the walkers while running away in some big trap saying the baby got bit by the walkers by accident not on purpose, it wasn't Jane's fault now.. It would've ended up the same fate. I'd rather take a lone she-wolf than raging asshole anyday.
Because you never did understand her. I didn't once believed she killed AJ or even lost him in an accident. I knew something was up and she was trying to pull something, and that AJ's alive somewhere.
Jane is many things, but seeing her interactions with Clem and even the group I knew killing AJ is not what she can do. I was rather upset at her at the end but chose to forgave her anyway because I believe she truly did that for Clem's benefit, even if the method wasn't the best and even backfired, and also because she returned to the group for Clem.
She told him it was an accident and he tried to murder her.
Well no duh she was lying. We all had seen how she acted in the past and… more how she was ALWAYS only caring for herself. The first chance she disappears without someone watching her and she happens to have the baby and she comes back immediately without the baby. It was so evident she wanted that baby gone before the fight happened it was ridiculous. On my first playthrough I had a sickening kind of feeling that she had just left it out in the snow so she could run faster or killed it in general. Luckily she just hid him but still. Kenny got the same feeling I got.
She could have stopped the fucking fight by saying "Kenny, Kenny, the baby's alright", Kenny would have put his Floridian O-O face and went … more"Wha--?" and then she explains what the fuck was the trying to prove. She didn't, she wanted to kill him.
Why the fuck did she start bashing Kenny while driving?!
NOT EVEN in a non-apocalypse you can you around joking with a baby's death, what the fuck! She was looking for a fight to the death. She got it (in my game).
1) I don't think she planned to kill him, but it definitely wasn't out of the question for her at all. She didn't put down her knife, all she did was sheathe it. As you can see when Kenny pins her to the wall she is trying to unsheathe her knife, sheathing it to begin with seemed like a mock surrender to make herself look the better of the two in front of Clem. The whole point of that charade was to force Clem to see Kenny the way she did, in order to do that she had to look like the "rational good guy", and make Kenny look like the "irrational bad guy". If she truly wasn't looking for a fight to the death, she would have thrown her knife out of reach. Or even better, she would have told Kenny the truth, instead of lying to him when she is aware of how close to the edge he is. I don't think Jane killed the Russian to save Kenny specifically, she came back for Clem, and the Russian was part of the group that was a threat to Clem's safety.
2)I don't understand why everyone seems to think that because Kenny has beaten up several adults, that he will do the same to children. If it were true that Kenny would beat a child for wronging him, he would have done it when he blamed Clem for Sarita's death. Kenny verbally berated her, but he didn't hit her, nor would he ever hit her. The situations would not be the same at all if Clem was in Jane's place, because for one, Kenny actually cares about Clem, and he trusts her. If Clem told him it was an accident, I'm sure he would flip out, because an innocent baby that he vowed to protect is dead and he's failed again. But beat her to near death? Kenny would never do that, yell at her yes, but never hit her. I beg to differ, every time Kenny loses someone he becomes just that much more human. His wife killed herself right in front of him, he has to watch his only son get put down, his girlfriend is bit and even though there was nothing he could do about it, he still feels immensely guilty, and along with that is extremely angry at what this world has done to him and his family. Kenny is in an exponential amount of pain, and the only way he can deal with it is converting it all into anger, and to take it out on people who cross him, because that is how he copes. Many humans cope like this, it's only logical that this coping mechanism would be amplified to an extreme degree given the new circumstances that arise with the apocalypse.
3) I don't see why it's a problem that after fixing the truck without any help except for Clem's,that he decides where it goes. Minus Clem, all the people in the group he's known for less than a few days, he doesn't trust them, they haven't earned his trust, they don't have a right to a decision on something they had no involvement in at all. Lets say you spend all day gathering the ingredients to bake bread, and the people whom you asked to help you sat back and did nothing, wouldn't it piss you off that after you've finished the bread without any help, they all show up and say they're entitled to some of that bread, and it's not your decision? It'd piss me off, and I'd tell them to back the fuck up, because it's my bread, I put the time into making it without any help, and I decide who gets some. I don't think Kenny was right in beating up Arvo, but his anger is understandable. Arvo told them the only way across is over the ice, so the whole group listened to him and allow him to lead them. As he's leading them walkers begin to follow them, and all of a sudden Arvo just bolts, leaving the group on ice that's beginning to break, along with walkers. They lose Luke, and Clem falls into the ice water, she might die now. Kenny gets pissed, and takes it out on the guy who brought them on to the ice in the first place, on the guy who ambushed them with a group who intended to kill them. Carver beat people over missing walkie talkies, he killed people over not finishing trimming berries in a certain time. You can't compare the two. Kenny said that to Clem mostly to comfort her, he didn't want Clem to feel bad and have his last words to her being negative and harsh. But I suppose this is open to interpretation, but imo he didn't mean what he said.
4) Jane was unstable, she intentionally pushed someone to their limits, and played with their emotions to prove a point to a third party. She lied about a baby being dead, so she could have Clem to herself. She tried previous times to get Clem to leave the group, that didn't work so she forces Clem to leave with her. There is no justification for her playing such a sick game; manipulating both Kenny and Clem. Jane being raped by Troy and/or Carver's group is all speculation on your part, there is no indication that anything of that nature ever happened. If anything it seems that Jane got involved with Troy on her own free will to manipulate him into letting her go free, or at least getting out of the "pen". The difference between Kenny's instability and Jane's is that Kenny always confronts the person he has a problem with, he tells them exactly why he doesn't like/trust them, and if that escalates to a physical fight, then that's what happens. Jane plays mind games with the people she dislikes, she acts like she's on their side but then she throws them under the bus in a way that makes it look like she had no choice on first glance, but if you look again you see just how much control she had over the situation, and she manipulates people like they're tools, and not people. Jane doesn't tell Kenny that the baby is in the car, because that will reflect badly on her in Clem's eyes. There would be no point to her elaborate scheme if it didn't make her look like the better guardian for Clem. It's less likely that Kenny would have killed her if she told him that AJ was in the car, but by telling him she would also be risking her rouse being discovered and Clem seeing how far she is willing to go to get what she wants at any cost, including Kenny and AJ's lives. Jane's a liar, unlike Kenny, which is why I blame her. Kenny is honest with you, even in his ugliest moments. I can't trust Jane not to twist things in her favor, to not lie and manipulate for her own agenda.
If you side with Kenny, you'll see that the Kenny=Carver bullshit is debunked. Carver cares only for himself, he would never sacrifice his own life for the sake of two children's lives. He would throw them under the bus and save himself. Kenny begging Edith to leave him, but to take AJ and Clem is incredibly selfless. Especially seeing as Kenny can't survive on his own, because he needs to have someone to protect to keep him going, to give him a purpose. Carver is a selfish person, Kenny has proven not to be.
Reading the comments on this thread shows how people can see the facts differently from a same reality.
First of all, I'l say that though… more I'm not a Kenny hater, I never really thought his character to be that interesting in Season 1. More than often was he at the beginning of dissension in the group, arguing with everyone not agreeing with him, Lee included.
And I thought that reintroducing him in Season 2 wasn't a good idea...until this last epsiode.
This discussion is interesting except for one point. he thread goes on one main point : "The Good Guy Kenny was made killed by the Bad Girl Jane" leaving you with two option : agree or disagrée (and by disagreeing, be ready to face some harsh comments) whenactually, it's more complicated thant that.
Here's my point of view reacting on what I read :
1) the "Jane wanted to kill Kenny" opinion : that one comes all along the 5 pages of comments. As I see it, I'd say no, she didn't plan … [view original content]
i mean it must increase or decrease at least 0.1% but it's stuck at 30.3% and the game is released just 4 days ago .it just means the game is played just for two days.
I don't think it's suspicious. Not too many people are going to notice the things that make Jane questionable and I doubt those who blindly follow Kenny are as numerous as they seem on the forums.
It's basically what you mentioned but a step further. I felt that Jane was coming back to replace her sister for her sake and not out of concern for Clem. She gave me a creepy possessive vibe throughout the entire episode that made me weary. I wasn't really sure until the scene in the truck when I was sure Jane was up to something. It really just comes down to perspective.
Yeah I'm one those who didn't catch on to what made Jane questionable. Would you mind sharing why she was questionable to you? I'm legit ask… moreing out of curiosity. I did question Jane's reason for coming back but I assumed that she started to view Clem as another little sister. She had already abandoned one and I figured she couldn't handle abandoning another.
1) She keeps her hand on the knife because Kenny's a threat to her. Actually, she's in a pretty bad position at the beginning of the fight. Kenny holding her hand so she can't use her knife and choking her with his arm. Actually, what saves Jane is the intervention of Clem hitting Kenny in the knee or holding his arm.
2) Arvo is no adult. He's a teenager, about Sarah's age, maybe 1 year older. The beating of Carver had a sense where the one of Arvo was totally gratuitous. some will say since Arvo shot Clementine later, its shows that Kenny gave the right treatment to Arvo. When actually, Arvo reacted as a teenager, mentally disturbed after having lost his "family" and being badly beat, by shooting the person he held responsible for what happened to him.
The beating of Arvo is one of the frist steps down to Carver's path. That's why Mike and Bonnie tried to flee, why Jane wanted to leave the group at first because they all recognized what's going on.
3) In a group, everybody has its own attributes. some can repair things, some can cook anything with nearly nothing, some are eagle-eyed shooters, some are good scavengers,etc... and in "democratic" groups, everybody works for the group and the the group decide commonly how to dal with the situation. If I follow your idea, if I'm the only one one being able to repair a car, I've the right to decide where we go...but rmaybe i won't have bread or meal because the one who made it thinks I'm not the first entitled to receive it...with that kind of group, you won't go very far.
And so the sharing of capacities is needed to survive and then, there are two ways to function : the democratic one or the despotic one..
Following Kenny's behavior, you're more on the despotic side.
the main difference at that time between Kenny and Carver is that Kenny won't force anybody to come with him to Wellington...except for AJ (because the only time he accepted to let AJ go is after having killed Jane and confessed he's dangerous for Clementine and AJ)..
4) I agree that Troy raping Jane is a pure speculation. However, signs tend to prove this.
Troy was a brute, relatively free of his acts as long as he played as one of Carver's weaponed hand. And Carver won't do nothing to prevent a rape if it helps reinforcing his grasp on rebellious people. And why does Jane shot him in the genitals? There were other targets possible that'll still make him living food for zombies and no threat for the group. And the end of episode 5 shows that Jane always acts for her own personal reason.
I agree too to your point that Kenny 's not a manipultaive man except by using his "My work/my decision" manners where Jane is ([Mysoginy mode=on]and after all, that's normal, she's a girl! [Mysoginy mode=off]) and I agree that she played a bad trick in hiding AJ and pretending he was dead. Anyway, it truly shows Kenny's instability.
Finally, you say that Carver is selfish when i don't think so. If he was so selfish, why does he care for Rebecca. I can understand he chases the group for Carlos doctor's ability but why bothers for clementine. Another mouth to feed maybe a useless one. Why does he lead a camp when as a band leader, he could scavenge everybody on the road. Understand me well : he's a real tyrant but from his point of view, he's acting for the greater goods even if it means doing sometimes bad things like killing gratuitously those who didn't their work as asked.
In some way, he's a true Darwinian.
At "no going back" time, Kenny's not Carver yet. He's just followiing the path that will lead to a same state of ruling by violence. One great difference between Kenny and Carver is that Carver finally accepted his condition where Kenny's not ready to accept it. The answers he gave to clementine after having killed Jane ("something's broken in me") and the way he really pleads at Wellington's gate shows he understands what he's becoming. This plea is an act of redemption towards Clementine and all those he ever harmed of hurt before (because when you say Kenny's not selfish isn't true as in season 1, in my first playthrough, he let Lee down when he asked for help to get Clementine's back because at 1 or 2 occasions, Lee didn't agree with him).
And even, I think he'll seek death before becoming a full Carver (this too is shown in "No going back", after having killed Jane and while Clementine aims her gun at him, he orders "Do it"...because he himself sees what path he's following)
1) I don't think she planned to kill him, but it definitely wasn't out of the question for her at all. She didn't put down her knife, all sh… moree did was sheathe it. As you can see when Kenny pins her to the wall she is trying to unsheathe her knife, sheathing it to begin with seemed like a mock surrender to make herself look the better of the two in front of Clem. The whole point of that charade was to force Clem to see Kenny the way she did, in order to do that she had to look like the "rational good guy", and make Kenny look like the "irrational bad guy". If she truly wasn't looking for a fight to the death, she would have thrown her knife out of reach. Or even better, she would have told Kenny the truth, instead of lying to him when she is aware of how close to the edge he is. I don't think Jane killed the Russian to save Kenny specifically, she came back for Clem, and the Russian was part of the group that was a threat to Clem's safety.
2… [view original content]
Even if Jane and Kenny survived in Season 3 and this time she lost the baby to the walkers while running away in some big trap saying the ba… moreby got bit by the walkers by accident not on purpose, it wasn't Jane's fault now.. It would've ended up the same fate. I'd rather take a lone she-wolf than raging asshole anyday.
The thing is, if the roles were reversed and it was Kenny doing what Jane did in order to get rid of her, every single one of you who condon… moree Jane would be calling for Kenny's head right there. Don't even try to deny it. Double standards.
Anyone who does something like that should never be trusted again, EVER. She didn't deserve to die, but considering you had to choose one and she was the one who caused the situation....
Not to mention that if it was Kenny coming up with that plan, everyone would conclude, me included, that that was the ultimate proof of Kenny's insanity. So what does that tell you about Jane?
Jane's followers( more mature than calling them Kenny's haters) will try to find ANY little thing to go against Kenny so it's no surprise th… moreat they are easily manipulated into condoning Jane's actions. They're sheeple and "weak of will" as put in Carver's words.
There was no TEAMJANE in episode 4 so that tells a lot on how desperate they are to jump into the hate bandwagon.
I understand exactly what you're saying. It does make sense that she came back for her sake and not Clem's. After I read your comment I immediately thought of the moment when Clem and Jane crashed the truck when the zombies showed up. The first thing Jane did was take the baby and hopped out the truck. She looked back at Clem, said get out of there and left. She didn't seem too concerned. Now I'm actualy kinda glad I stuck with Jane. I can't wait to see what type of twisted character she might end up becoming in season 3.
It's basically what you mentioned but a step further. I felt that Jane was coming back to replace her sister for her sake and not out of con… morecern for Clem. She gave me a creepy possessive vibe throughout the entire episode that made me weary. I wasn't really sure until the scene in the truck when I was sure Jane was up to something. It really just comes down to perspective.
1) And Jane's a threat to Kenny because she has a knife. They were both a threat to each other, but the reason why Jane is more at fault is because she wanted this to happen, she knew that Kenny would lose it if she implied the baby was dead. She even goes as far as to tell Clem to stay out of it so she can "see what Kenny really is", if Jane already knew what level it was capable of escalating to(fight to the death) then she actively wanted Kenny dead before the whole "AJ is dead ruse", which is when Kenny began to want her dead. After she slashes him with the knife, she refuses to back off if Clem asks her to, saying "she's going to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery." She didn't just want to get Clem away from him, she wanted to get rid of him permanently. And tbh, if I was under the impression that she killed a baby like Kenny was, I'd want her worse than dead, I'd want her to suffer. Kenny didn't like Jane, but I'm pretty damn sure he wouldn't go to such lengths to get rid of her, that she did to him. And she ends up kicking Kenny in the groin if you don't do anything when she's pinned against the wall, so she wasn't necessarily in need of saving.
2)Again, that's speculation. I have yet to see any confirmations for Arvo's age(I'm guessing he's a little older than Ben), but it's still not the same situation. He isn't a child, Clem is. So you're justifying Arvo shooting Clem, even when she hands her gun over? Clem wasn't a threat, are you saying that Arvo wanted revenge, and because he blamed Clem it's ok what he did? If Bonnie and Mike truly thought Kenny was becoming Carver, why would they leave Clem and the baby in his care? If one were to say your speculation is true, that makes Bonnie and Mike look like even bigger selfish assholes, and that's saying something.
3)Nobody in the group even thought Kenny was going to get the truck running, Jane said it was stupid, Bonnie just sits there smoking a cigarette, and Mike's too preoccupied with Arvo to care about anything else. I can understand why Jane couldn't help, she was watching AJ, but she didn't even think he could do fix the truck. Bonnie could have easily gotten up and helped, but she ends up stalking off into the woods, and Mike seems to have developed weird feelings for Arvo(I can't be the only one who thinks Mike got way too attached to Arvo too quickly for it to just be concern, it was creeping me out tbh), whom he just met a few hours ago while his group was trying to kill Mike's. so It's true that everybody has different skills, and can contribute in different ways, but I wouldn't care much for said groups' opinion if they spent the whole time not helping me, or actively telling me what I was doing was stupid, or pointless. And keep in mind, Kenny has only known these people for 3, maybe 4 days tops. He doesn't know what these people's agendas are, or even if they care about him. Obviously, his wariness was justified, because Bonnie and Mike were planning to rob him of all their supplies and steal the truck he fixed without the whole group's input. Jane tried to coerce Clem into leaving him when he went out to look for gas, and when that doesn't work, she puts a baby's life in danger to prove a point/get rid of Kenny without Clem's input on the matter. Yeah, some democratic group. Kenny is so protective over AJ, because he's been a father before. Nobody objects to him taking care of AJ, because he has the experience, nobody else does.
4) Just because Troy is an asshole doesn't mean he's capable of rape. He has never said anything about forcing himself on Jane, or anyone else. In fact he doesn't get flirty with Jane until she got flirty with him, which she was only doing to manipulate him. Jane was in complete control of the situation she created with Troy. Because Jane is nuts. Did you not see that unnervingly creepy smile she had on her face right before she shot him? It's that instance that contributes to the argument that Jane has been mentally unsound for quite some time. It truly shows her instability, the fact that she would intentionally push another human being to their breaking point, even if she honestly believed she was doing it for Clem's benefit, that's just sick.
He cares for Rebecca, only because she's carrying his child. That is the only reason he went after the cabin group in the first place, to bring back Carlos to deliver the baby, and Rebecca because the baby's inside of her. It's the baby he wants, not Rebecca. Carver doesn't accept his condition, he never says that he's crazy and he's ok with that etc. He genuinely believes he's doing what is right because he's a psychopath, that doesn't mean he's aware of his condition though. There are several people who are psychotic who don't even know it. Yes. it is an act of redemption, which is exactly why he is selfless. You are right, he was selfish in season 1(though Kenny went with my Lee to find Clem, they were family at that point), but not anymore. His character development reaches leaps and bounds at the end of season 2.
1) She keeps her hand on the knife because Kenny's a threat to her. Actually, she's in a pretty bad position at the beginning of the fight. … moreKenny holding her hand so she can't use her knife and choking her with his arm. Actually, what saves Jane is the intervention of Clem hitting Kenny in the knee or holding his arm.
2) Arvo is no adult. He's a teenager, about Sarah's age, maybe 1 year older. The beating of Carver had a sense where the one of Arvo was totally gratuitous. some will say since Arvo shot Clementine later, its shows that Kenny gave the right treatment to Arvo. When actually, Arvo reacted as a teenager, mentally disturbed after having lost his "family" and being badly beat, by shooting the person he held responsible for what happened to him.
The beating of Arvo is one of the frist steps down to Carver's path. That's why Mike and Bonnie tried to flee, why Jane wanted to leave the group at first because they all recognized what'… [view original content]
She could have stopped the fucking fight by saying "Kenny, Kenny, the baby's alright", Kenny would have put his Floridian O-O face and went … more"Wha--?" and then she explains what the fuck was the trying to prove. She didn't, she wanted to kill him.
Why the fuck did she start bashing Kenny while driving?!
NOT EVEN in a non-apocalypse you can you around joking with a baby's death, what the fuck! She was looking for a fight to the death. She got it (in my game).
Comments
^^^ That is the most perfect breakdown of Janes character! I had forgotten how she used and manipulated Troy... shes dangerous! Very very dangerous, because you cant see what shes doing, until too late
Reading the comments on this thread shows how people can see the facts differently from a same reality.
First of all, I'l say that though I'm not a Kenny hater, I never really thought his character to be that interesting in Season 1. More than often was he at the beginning of dissension in the group, arguing with everyone not agreeing with him, Lee included.
And I thought that reintroducing him in Season 2 wasn't a good idea...until this last epsiode.
This discussion is interesting except for one point. he thread goes on one main point : "The Good Guy Kenny was made killed by the Bad Girl Jane" leaving you with two option : agree or disagrée (and by disagreeing, be ready to face some harsh comments) whenactually, it's more complicated thant that.
Here's my point of view reacting on what I read :
1) the "Jane wanted to kill Kenny" opinion : that one comes all along the 5 pages of comments. As I see it, I'd say no, she didn't plan to kill him. But yes, she wanted to put Kenny in rage to prove her point that Kenny is becoming more unstable. if she just wanted to kill him, why put her knife down? just because she wanted to fight Kenny, and probably get killed by him? All the episodes with in season 2 shows she'll never trie to put her life in danger for no reason.
And if she wanted to kill him, why did she save him from the Russian guy? I ould have been way much easier to let the russian guy kill Kenny then joining Clem' and the group...
2) "Kenny's attacking Jane because he thinks she killed the baby" : Again, what I felt isn't the same fact as this line. Actually, Kenny's attacking Jane because he held her responsible for the loss of the baby, no matter what circumstances led to that loss. My point of view is that if it was Clementine who came in that store, telling she lost the baby, you would have the same reaction of Kenny without Clementine having a chance to explian how she lost the baby (and though I'm pretty sure he won't kill her, he would beat her VERY badly).
Finally, all this season shows a normal guy going downhill following the hard situations he lived. each time Kenny loses someone of his "family", he loses a bit of his humanity. First, it was his son and wife and that's pretty strong to endure. then he met Sarita and gained a bit of sunshine:then lost her and he fell deeper then AJ shows up, a bit and his loss is what detonates the Kenny bomb. And if you look well, Kenny always reacted like that : Direct judgment, direct sentences and we'll see later for the circumstances (and many times, later, he feels guilty realizing he was wrong. Remember how he was ready to abandon Ben because he held him responsible for Duck and Katja's deaths and finally redeemed himself by trying to save him later when he understoods Ben lived harsh situations too).
3) "Kenny always acts for the group/tries to protect his "family" : On that point, I will partially agree. He's an action man and when things turn wrong, you can count on him to react instinctly. The thing is that out of action, he acts in despotic ways : "My path, my lead!"..."My boat, My choice of people in it!"..."My car repaired, My direction!"...And most of all, during the end of season 2, you could see Kenny's going down the Carver's way. the beating of Arvo (well, actually, the torturing) was the first step of Kenny becoming a new Carver. And the way he looked angry at Clementine when she glared at him afraid after he beat bad Arvo in the house (because he thought Arvo tried to kill on the ice lake) and saying to her harshly :"What? Don't like it anymore?" (I guess this line's only said if you watched Kenny beating Carver to death).
And that's the main reason I killed Kenny in my first playthrough, because he was slowly becoming another Carver :Protective with his people as long as they follow his directives even if these are morally undenfendable..And remeber that from their point of view, every tyrant did bad things for good reasons.
And even Kenny, feels it. if not killed by clem, when finding the baby, he tries to convince himself Jane was unstable tnen finally agrees (with one answer of clem) that himself is dangerous, that something broke into himself...and if you kill him, he said to clem "you did the right thing". A part of it is to ease Clem a bit. But mostly, he said that because he understood how mad and dangerous he was becoming and that on one point, this will end his sufferings (though after that, he sayd he's afraid to die...but who wouldn't)
4) "Jane is selfish and unstable" : here too, i'll partially agree. In majority, she thinks of her own safety first. And I guess this selfishness comes from one case : she doesn't want any form of responsibility on other's life and most of all, she doesn't want to suffer emotionally for the loss of new friends/relatives. However, if she was so selfish, why did she join back the group on the road? Why did she save Clem from the lake? just only to have a new "sister"....that's way way too simple.
On the unstable fact, i'll agree. We can never know how she will react confronted to a situation. But if we have to pardon Kenny for his bad reactions due to the hard situations he lived, maybe should we look too on Jane's past : A girl in her early twenties, maybe less, who lost her family too, who was member of groups that turned bad.disbanded/got killed by zombies, who probably got raped by Troy (and maybe others from Carver's group or former meetings on her road), etc...if your'e ready to pardon Kenny for being unstable, you can't blame Jane for being it too
Some said she could have put an end to the fight by telling the baby was alive. Do these really think Kenny would have passed the brush on Jane having put the baby in danger?
As a conclusion, I'd say that there are no good or bad choice at the end of this episode. Side with Kenny and you're on with a new Carver in the future; side with Jane and be exposed to be left alone someday...or side with no one and it's you with a baby vs the Zombie world
XD XD XD XD XD Why!? ROFL!!! This is the funniest comment I've read so far lol! But seriously Kenny had nothing to do with Luke's death. So why would you want him dead because of Luke's death?
i played no going back four days ago and the percentage for killing kenny was 43% and it changed one day later. the game showed 70% for killing kenny and it hasn't changed for 2 days.it still shows 30% for that.
it's suspicious!!!!!
I don't think it's suspicious. Not too many people are going to notice the things that make Jane questionable and I doubt those who blindly follow Kenny are as numerous as they seem on the forums.
cool..i like how you say it's about exposing kenny and not worrying about AJ...
No she put it away to make herself not so obvious. If she was too obvious that she wanted to kill him, Clem wouldn't forgive her or side with her or at least not so easily. She even later stabs him, so just because she puts it away doesn't mean she isn't going to use it again. That's BS. If she threw it on the ground so neither could get it, that'd be different. If she didn't want to have any fight at all, like I said if Clem takes him off her, Jane should have either backed off more or ran, not try to beat Kenny when he's down. If she was all "stop stop please don't hurt me" or something like that, then yeah she would be trying to stop it more not taunting him instead, thus provoking the fight. There's no getting around it, Jane wanted that fight 100%.
lol you wouldn't feel threatened if someone pulls a knife on you if you attacked first? I don't care if you have a gun instead of your fists, you're going to feel threatened when someone has a weapon, period. Don't be unrealistic. Jane didn't do anything to stop the fight, she egged it on. She wanted it. If Jane instead covered herself or ran and said "stop stop stop, please don't hurt me!" Then yes, it'd be more reasonable to react that hey maybe I'm getting too violent here and freaking people out. But that didn't happen and instead she added fuel to the flames, since this was everything she was working for.
Yeah Jane saved them at that point but she still followed them without the group knowing about it. If she didn't reveal herself then, who's to say Jane wouldn't have tried to steal the car or even Clem when no one was looking?
Kenny a father to Clementine? Are you kidding? Clementine became Kenny's personal guardian. Lol
Exactly. Jane was serious poison and wasn't going to stop until it was just her and Clem like it was just her and her sister.
Sorry but I just couldn't watch Kenny just kill Jane like that. Plus he made it perfectly clear multiple times that he was ready to die. The man was suffering so I felt that I was doing him a favor. That's my excuse.
I agree that was more of a breaking point instead of true nature. All the man was trying to do was keep Clem and the baby safe. Trying to do that with a group of people that don't trust you while in a zombie apocalypse is more than enough to drive anyone over the edge.
Yeah I'm one those who didn't catch on to what made Jane questionable. Would you mind sharing why she was questionable to you? I'm legit asking out of curiosity. I did question Jane's reason for coming back but I assumed that she started to view Clem as another little sister. She had already abandoned one and I figured she couldn't handle abandoning another.
She stated that she didn't want to kill Kenny, she talked about how her plan was only to show what Kenny was capable of so that Clementine knew that she wouldn't be safe with Kenny. She stabs him out of self-defence, he was charging at her, also, Kenny uses the same knife to stab her in the leg and try to kill her with it. You can't actually prove that she wanted the fight, just because there is evidence doesn't mean that she actually intended to do so, do you forget that Kenny provokes Jane first? He talks about how Jane is a bad influence, how Jane is a bad person and insults her behind her back, he talks about how she was nothing, how she cares for no one and that no one cared for her, if anything, Kenny is the one that caused the fight with Jane.
I knew she didn't kill it, I paid as much attention as I could to her character and I knew what her intentions were as soon as she made it to the pit stop.
(nevermind)
I figured out that she didn't kill it near the end, but I saw how she was trying to manipulate Clementine. I just couldn't kill Kenny, even if I didn't like him that much.
I know the feeling, I just couldn't let Kenny kill someone, I don't think he would've gotten better if he killed someone else.
Anyone who uses a baby and puts it in danger just to try and prove a point is sick..and so I prefer Kenny to kill off Jane
Making that happen isn't difficult, you just have to disagree with one of his decisions he already turns into a little bitch.
I'm with Jane...I never liked Kenny, so I felt no remorse killing him.
Even if Jane and Kenny survived in Season 3 and this time she lost the baby to the walkers while running away in some big trap saying the baby got bit by the walkers by accident not on purpose, it wasn't Jane's fault now.. It would've ended up the same fate. I'd rather take a lone she-wolf than raging asshole anyday.
Because you never did understand her. I didn't once believed she killed AJ or even lost him in an accident. I knew something was up and she was trying to pull something, and that AJ's alive somewhere.
Jane is many things, but seeing her interactions with Clem and even the group I knew killing AJ is not what she can do. I was rather upset at her at the end but chose to forgave her anyway because I believe she truly did that for Clem's benefit, even if the method wasn't the best and even backfired, and also because she returned to the group for Clem.
i disagree i think he would of tied her up or something. I don't think he would of been like okay well lets go get him then
1) I don't think she planned to kill him, but it definitely wasn't out of the question for her at all. She didn't put down her knife, all she did was sheathe it. As you can see when Kenny pins her to the wall she is trying to unsheathe her knife, sheathing it to begin with seemed like a mock surrender to make herself look the better of the two in front of Clem. The whole point of that charade was to force Clem to see Kenny the way she did, in order to do that she had to look like the "rational good guy", and make Kenny look like the "irrational bad guy". If she truly wasn't looking for a fight to the death, she would have thrown her knife out of reach. Or even better, she would have told Kenny the truth, instead of lying to him when she is aware of how close to the edge he is. I don't think Jane killed the Russian to save Kenny specifically, she came back for Clem, and the Russian was part of the group that was a threat to Clem's safety.
2)I don't understand why everyone seems to think that because Kenny has beaten up several adults, that he will do the same to children. If it were true that Kenny would beat a child for wronging him, he would have done it when he blamed Clem for Sarita's death. Kenny verbally berated her, but he didn't hit her, nor would he ever hit her. The situations would not be the same at all if Clem was in Jane's place, because for one, Kenny actually cares about Clem, and he trusts her. If Clem told him it was an accident, I'm sure he would flip out, because an innocent baby that he vowed to protect is dead and he's failed again. But beat her to near death? Kenny would never do that, yell at her yes, but never hit her. I beg to differ, every time Kenny loses someone he becomes just that much more human. His wife killed herself right in front of him, he has to watch his only son get put down, his girlfriend is bit and even though there was nothing he could do about it, he still feels immensely guilty, and along with that is extremely angry at what this world has done to him and his family. Kenny is in an exponential amount of pain, and the only way he can deal with it is converting it all into anger, and to take it out on people who cross him, because that is how he copes. Many humans cope like this, it's only logical that this coping mechanism would be amplified to an extreme degree given the new circumstances that arise with the apocalypse.
3) I don't see why it's a problem that after fixing the truck without any help except for Clem's,that he decides where it goes. Minus Clem, all the people in the group he's known for less than a few days, he doesn't trust them, they haven't earned his trust, they don't have a right to a decision on something they had no involvement in at all. Lets say you spend all day gathering the ingredients to bake bread, and the people whom you asked to help you sat back and did nothing, wouldn't it piss you off that after you've finished the bread without any help, they all show up and say they're entitled to some of that bread, and it's not your decision? It'd piss me off, and I'd tell them to back the fuck up, because it's my bread, I put the time into making it without any help, and I decide who gets some. I don't think Kenny was right in beating up Arvo, but his anger is understandable. Arvo told them the only way across is over the ice, so the whole group listened to him and allow him to lead them. As he's leading them walkers begin to follow them, and all of a sudden Arvo just bolts, leaving the group on ice that's beginning to break, along with walkers. They lose Luke, and Clem falls into the ice water, she might die now. Kenny gets pissed, and takes it out on the guy who brought them on to the ice in the first place, on the guy who ambushed them with a group who intended to kill them. Carver beat people over missing walkie talkies, he killed people over not finishing trimming berries in a certain time. You can't compare the two. Kenny said that to Clem mostly to comfort her, he didn't want Clem to feel bad and have his last words to her being negative and harsh. But I suppose this is open to interpretation, but imo he didn't mean what he said.
4) Jane was unstable, she intentionally pushed someone to their limits, and played with their emotions to prove a point to a third party. She lied about a baby being dead, so she could have Clem to herself. She tried previous times to get Clem to leave the group, that didn't work so she forces Clem to leave with her. There is no justification for her playing such a sick game; manipulating both Kenny and Clem. Jane being raped by Troy and/or Carver's group is all speculation on your part, there is no indication that anything of that nature ever happened. If anything it seems that Jane got involved with Troy on her own free will to manipulate him into letting her go free, or at least getting out of the "pen". The difference between Kenny's instability and Jane's is that Kenny always confronts the person he has a problem with, he tells them exactly why he doesn't like/trust them, and if that escalates to a physical fight, then that's what happens. Jane plays mind games with the people she dislikes, she acts like she's on their side but then she throws them under the bus in a way that makes it look like she had no choice on first glance, but if you look again you see just how much control she had over the situation, and she manipulates people like they're tools, and not people. Jane doesn't tell Kenny that the baby is in the car, because that will reflect badly on her in Clem's eyes. There would be no point to her elaborate scheme if it didn't make her look like the better guardian for Clem. It's less likely that Kenny would have killed her if she told him that AJ was in the car, but by telling him she would also be risking her rouse being discovered and Clem seeing how far she is willing to go to get what she wants at any cost, including Kenny and AJ's lives. Jane's a liar, unlike Kenny, which is why I blame her. Kenny is honest with you, even in his ugliest moments. I can't trust Jane not to twist things in her favor, to not lie and manipulate for her own agenda.
If you side with Kenny, you'll see that the Kenny=Carver bullshit is debunked. Carver cares only for himself, he would never sacrifice his own life for the sake of two children's lives. He would throw them under the bus and save himself. Kenny begging Edith to leave him, but to take AJ and Clem is incredibly selfless. Especially seeing as Kenny can't survive on his own, because he needs to have someone to protect to keep him going, to give him a purpose. Carver is a selfish person, Kenny has proven not to be.
i mean it must increase or decrease at least 0.1% but it's stuck at 30.3% and the game is released just 4 days ago .it just means the game is played just for two days.
It's basically what you mentioned but a step further. I felt that Jane was coming back to replace her sister for her sake and not out of concern for Clem. She gave me a creepy possessive vibe throughout the entire episode that made me weary. I wasn't really sure until the scene in the truck when I was sure Jane was up to something. It really just comes down to perspective.
1) She keeps her hand on the knife because Kenny's a threat to her. Actually, she's in a pretty bad position at the beginning of the fight. Kenny holding her hand so she can't use her knife and choking her with his arm. Actually, what saves Jane is the intervention of Clem hitting Kenny in the knee or holding his arm.
2) Arvo is no adult. He's a teenager, about Sarah's age, maybe 1 year older. The beating of Carver had a sense where the one of Arvo was totally gratuitous. some will say since Arvo shot Clementine later, its shows that Kenny gave the right treatment to Arvo. When actually, Arvo reacted as a teenager, mentally disturbed after having lost his "family" and being badly beat, by shooting the person he held responsible for what happened to him.
The beating of Arvo is one of the frist steps down to Carver's path. That's why Mike and Bonnie tried to flee, why Jane wanted to leave the group at first because they all recognized what's going on.
3) In a group, everybody has its own attributes. some can repair things, some can cook anything with nearly nothing, some are eagle-eyed shooters, some are good scavengers,etc... and in "democratic" groups, everybody works for the group and the the group decide commonly how to dal with the situation. If I follow your idea, if I'm the only one one being able to repair a car, I've the right to decide where we go...but rmaybe i won't have bread or meal because the one who made it thinks I'm not the first entitled to receive it...with that kind of group, you won't go very far.
And so the sharing of capacities is needed to survive and then, there are two ways to function : the democratic one or the despotic one..
Following Kenny's behavior, you're more on the despotic side.
the main difference at that time between Kenny and Carver is that Kenny won't force anybody to come with him to Wellington...except for AJ (because the only time he accepted to let AJ go is after having killed Jane and confessed he's dangerous for Clementine and AJ)..
4) I agree that Troy raping Jane is a pure speculation. However, signs tend to prove this.
Troy was a brute, relatively free of his acts as long as he played as one of Carver's weaponed hand. And Carver won't do nothing to prevent a rape if it helps reinforcing his grasp on rebellious people. And why does Jane shot him in the genitals? There were other targets possible that'll still make him living food for zombies and no threat for the group. And the end of episode 5 shows that Jane always acts for her own personal reason.
I agree too to your point that Kenny 's not a manipultaive man except by using his "My work/my decision" manners where Jane is ([Mysoginy mode=on]and after all, that's normal, she's a girl! [Mysoginy mode=off]) and I agree that she played a bad trick in hiding AJ and pretending he was dead. Anyway, it truly shows Kenny's instability.
Finally, you say that Carver is selfish when i don't think so. If he was so selfish, why does he care for Rebecca. I can understand he chases the group for Carlos doctor's ability but why bothers for clementine. Another mouth to feed maybe a useless one. Why does he lead a camp when as a band leader, he could scavenge everybody on the road. Understand me well : he's a real tyrant but from his point of view, he's acting for the greater goods even if it means doing sometimes bad things like killing gratuitously those who didn't their work as asked.
In some way, he's a true Darwinian.
At "no going back" time, Kenny's not Carver yet. He's just followiing the path that will lead to a same state of ruling by violence. One great difference between Kenny and Carver is that Carver finally accepted his condition where Kenny's not ready to accept it. The answers he gave to clementine after having killed Jane ("something's broken in me") and the way he really pleads at Wellington's gate shows he understands what he's becoming. This plea is an act of redemption towards Clementine and all those he ever harmed of hurt before (because when you say Kenny's not selfish isn't true as in season 1, in my first playthrough, he let Lee down when he asked for help to get Clementine's back because at 1 or 2 occasions, Lee didn't agree with him).
And even, I think he'll seek death before becoming a full Carver (this too is shown in "No going back", after having killed Jane and while Clementine aims her gun at him, he orders "Do it"...because he himself sees what path he's following)
hell yeah brother !! thumbs up to you
dang lol.
This picture contradicts itself with Kenny in it.
Well, If Kenny appeared as some badass lone wolf instead of a raging asshole that breaks apart groups, then yes, I would shoot Jane.
It's TEAM SOMEONE RATHER THAN KENNY.
Basically. Dude's a raging asshole. Breaks apart group and his inflated ego gets hurt every-time someone disagrees with him.
CLEM, WHY U GOTTA EMBARRASS ME LIEK DAT? I TRUSTED U!!!
TEAMLUKE was replaced by TEAMJANE
I understand exactly what you're saying. It does make sense that she came back for her sake and not Clem's. After I read your comment I immediately thought of the moment when Clem and Jane crashed the truck when the zombies showed up. The first thing Jane did was take the baby and hopped out the truck. She looked back at Clem, said get out of there and left. She didn't seem too concerned. Now I'm actualy kinda glad I stuck with Jane. I can't wait to see what type of twisted character she might end up becoming in season 3.
1) And Jane's a threat to Kenny because she has a knife. They were both a threat to each other, but the reason why Jane is more at fault is because she wanted this to happen, she knew that Kenny would lose it if she implied the baby was dead. She even goes as far as to tell Clem to stay out of it so she can "see what Kenny really is", if Jane already knew what level it was capable of escalating to(fight to the death) then she actively wanted Kenny dead before the whole "AJ is dead ruse", which is when Kenny began to want her dead. After she slashes him with the knife, she refuses to back off if Clem asks her to, saying "she's going to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery." She didn't just want to get Clem away from him, she wanted to get rid of him permanently. And tbh, if I was under the impression that she killed a baby like Kenny was, I'd want her worse than dead, I'd want her to suffer. Kenny didn't like Jane, but I'm pretty damn sure he wouldn't go to such lengths to get rid of her, that she did to him. And she ends up kicking Kenny in the groin if you don't do anything when she's pinned against the wall, so she wasn't necessarily in need of saving.
2)Again, that's speculation. I have yet to see any confirmations for Arvo's age(I'm guessing he's a little older than Ben), but it's still not the same situation. He isn't a child, Clem is. So you're justifying Arvo shooting Clem, even when she hands her gun over? Clem wasn't a threat, are you saying that Arvo wanted revenge, and because he blamed Clem it's ok what he did? If Bonnie and Mike truly thought Kenny was becoming Carver, why would they leave Clem and the baby in his care? If one were to say your speculation is true, that makes Bonnie and Mike look like even bigger selfish assholes, and that's saying something.
3)Nobody in the group even thought Kenny was going to get the truck running, Jane said it was stupid, Bonnie just sits there smoking a cigarette, and Mike's too preoccupied with Arvo to care about anything else. I can understand why Jane couldn't help, she was watching AJ, but she didn't even think he could do fix the truck. Bonnie could have easily gotten up and helped, but she ends up stalking off into the woods, and Mike seems to have developed weird feelings for Arvo(I can't be the only one who thinks Mike got way too attached to Arvo too quickly for it to just be concern, it was creeping me out tbh), whom he just met a few hours ago while his group was trying to kill Mike's. so It's true that everybody has different skills, and can contribute in different ways, but I wouldn't care much for said groups' opinion if they spent the whole time not helping me, or actively telling me what I was doing was stupid, or pointless. And keep in mind, Kenny has only known these people for 3, maybe 4 days tops. He doesn't know what these people's agendas are, or even if they care about him. Obviously, his wariness was justified, because Bonnie and Mike were planning to rob him of all their supplies and steal the truck he fixed without the whole group's input. Jane tried to coerce Clem into leaving him when he went out to look for gas, and when that doesn't work, she puts a baby's life in danger to prove a point/get rid of Kenny without Clem's input on the matter. Yeah, some democratic group. Kenny is so protective over AJ, because he's been a father before. Nobody objects to him taking care of AJ, because he has the experience, nobody else does.
4) Just because Troy is an asshole doesn't mean he's capable of rape. He has never said anything about forcing himself on Jane, or anyone else. In fact he doesn't get flirty with Jane until she got flirty with him, which she was only doing to manipulate him. Jane was in complete control of the situation she created with Troy. Because Jane is nuts. Did you not see that unnervingly creepy smile she had on her face right before she shot him? It's that instance that contributes to the argument that Jane has been mentally unsound for quite some time. It truly shows her instability, the fact that she would intentionally push another human being to their breaking point, even if she honestly believed she was doing it for Clem's benefit, that's just sick.
He cares for Rebecca, only because she's carrying his child. That is the only reason he went after the cabin group in the first place, to bring back Carlos to deliver the baby, and Rebecca because the baby's inside of her. It's the baby he wants, not Rebecca. Carver doesn't accept his condition, he never says that he's crazy and he's ok with that etc. He genuinely believes he's doing what is right because he's a psychopath, that doesn't mean he's aware of his condition though. There are several people who are psychotic who don't even know it. Yes. it is an act of redemption, which is exactly why he is selfless. You are right, he was selfish in season 1(though Kenny went with my Lee to find Clem, they were family at that point), but not anymore. His character development reaches leaps and bounds at the end of season 2.
I love this :,)
"I didn't kill him!" ~Jane
i think it's the best ending