Yes, which is why I specifically said maybe he was stealing for his own use (due to his leg) and maybe he said sick sister to get more sympathy and/or to not appear weak in front of strangers.
Sorry, I personally cannot see the thought process behind stealing ALL the food and only working car, thereby leaving a little girl and a baby (who they have gotten to know and seem to feel some kind of affection for) to essentially DIE, while at the same time caring enough about Arvo being beaten that you take him along. Wanting to leave? Sure. Being angry at how Arvo is treated? Yes. Sneaking away cuz they are scared of Kenny? Eh, ok. But I dont see how you can "understand" leaving everyone else to die while caring enough to save Arvo. That just does not seem logical to me so I personally cannot see where they are coming from.
That is a vast oversimplification of what are likely a bunch of different factors (some of them we can't even begin to know) for why they wa… morented to leave.
Was it the right choice? Or even a good one? That's a debatable opinion. But I can at the very least see where they are coming from even if I don't necessarily agree with it.
Sorry, I personally cannot see the thought process behind stealing ALL the food and only working car, thereby leaving a little girl and a ba… moreby (who they have gotten to know and seem to feel some kind of affection for) to essentially DIE, while at the same time caring enough about Arvo being beaten that you take him along. Wanting to leave? Sure. Being angry at how Arvo is treated? Yes. Sneaking away cuz they are scared of Kenny? Eh, ok. But I dont see how you can "understand" leaving everyone else to die while caring enough to save Arvo. That just does not seem logical to me so I personally cannot see where they are coming from.
This is a good thread. It doesn't excuse his actions but it really does a good job of coming up with an explanation for what he did. People … moredon't have to sympathize with him, and I understand completely why they wouldn't. (Even though I don't feel the same, I like his character, always have since his first appearance...)
After finding the translation video, if it is correct, then it pretty much confirms that during the shootout, Arvo didn't know his sister had turned and therefore when Clementine shot her, he assumed it to be murder. I used to think that Arvo knew she turned and hated Clementine still, and I thought it was very dumb of him to hate her so much, especially if she had been nice to him most of the time. But now things make a lot more sense. I wish Telltale had some sort of translation subtitle for him.
I was very annoyed that they didn't do more with Arvo. Not being given the chance to have a discussion with him and explain… [view original content]
Did you even read my whole post? No, you obviously didn't because I state /multiple times/ that the only purpose of this is to get people to see that people make shitty choices--you don't have forgive them or sympathize with them for their shitty choices, but make an effort to understand what led them to come to their shitty choices.
Seriously, why do you even protect Arvo?
I robbed him and I think that was deserved.
I hope Mike/Bonnie killed him or that he ended up being devoured by walkers, he didn't make that long with his leg.
Did you even read my whole post? No, you obviously didn't because I state /multiple times/ that the only purpose of this is to get people to… more see that people make shitty choices--you don't have forgive them or sympathize with them for their shitty choices, but make an effort to understand what led them to come to their shitty choices.
I believe Arvo hated Clem more than he does for Kenny. Arvo isnt a brave person but he is brave for his sister. It shows that somehow, his sister has a higher priority than he does in his mind. That's why he shot Clem who killed his sister instead of Kenny and/or Jane who attacked him.
And yes, I'm glad he stood up against Kenny's abuses. It felt as though the group should have reacted more strongly against it but they didn't...
That's something that has been hammered into our heads since Episode 1, where bandits are willing to shoot Clem in the face and a group of s… morecared people were willing to leave her to die rather than help her. It doesn't at all justify their mistreatment of her, just as Carver and Troy and Arvo were wrong to hurt Clementine, but her actions have proven her to be a lot more capable and potentially dangerous than adults would give her credit for.
And the same goes for Arvo. A lot of people hated him purely because he was associated with a scary-looking group of foreigners who tried to rob Clem in revenge for Jane's treatment of him, and the hatred is a lot stronger now that he defied Kenny and hurt Clem. At the same time, I admire Arvo for not putting up with Kenny's shit and insulting him while knowing full well it would get him hurt.
The only thing he did wrong, as far as I'm concerned, was shooting Clem instead of Kenny and Jane while… [view original content]
Actually, its not. While your general thread may be about Arvo, I was specifically responding to IcepickEvans and their comment regarding Mike and Bonnie.
Buricko decided to rob us only after Arvo lied and told him we stole his medicine. Buricko also only shot at our group after we fired the first shot and before that kept trying to get Arvo to make us put our guns down when they could just as easily killed us as we were walking down the road. Dont put all the blame on Buricko when it was Arvo who lied and started the whole mess. Its his own fault his sister got shot.
Kenny mocks you for trying to save Arvo if you stayed to watch Carver, but ultimately there is no comparison between the two.
Carver was … morean irredeemable monster who was directly responsible for his numerous crimes. Arvo was a scared boy who, like Clementine, had no say over his group's actions (it was Buricko who decided to rob, then shoot at Clem's group despite Arvo's attempts to calm things down), and had ceased to be a threat as soon as his entire family was dead.
That wasnt Janes fault. He pointed the gun at a little girl and he is obviously twitchy as hell. He is also a complete stranger who wandered too close to our group and the pregnant lady about to give birth. Who in their right mind would give him the gun back?
But I dont see why he has to be painted as one or the other. I thought he was a "villain" when he lied and got us into this mess in the first place, but I also saw him as a victim when Kenny was beating him.
I don't think the writers tried to paint him as a villain really at all, and that is merely the reaction a bunch of people have because they… more only want to focus on his "shoot Clem" deed. If you ask me, he was painted as a victim the entire time. From his desperate (if futile) attempts to stop the aforementioned standoff, to his constant treatment at Kenny's hands even though he was tied up and cooperating, to being savagely beaten based on paranoid assumptions.
Really, beyond maybe being the catalyst for the standoff in the first place (an really, that was probably more Jane's fault for taking his gun upon the first meeting), what has he really done that paints him as a villain before the standoff with Clem?
I don't recall him being defiant. Not answering Kenny immediately in English whenever Kenny demanded an answer is not being defiant. It's closer to being in shock and not paying attention to what is happening around you, and not caring. And he's only leading them to the house because he really doesn't want to die, and that's the only thing he can do to not die.
That Kenny sees it as being defiant just shows how racist Kenny is, that he still thinks calling someone a Commie makes sense. Anything Arvo did would have been taken in the worst possible light by Kenny. From leading them to the exact place he told them he was leading them, to running away when walkers show up.
My point was that with all Arvo has been through, he should be barely functioning, not defiant. It's too soon for him to be defiant. What gi… moreves him the spark to even stand up to the world after what he's been through? Nothing. That's why he doesn't make sense.
It's not about whether he's justified; it's about whether he's acting like someone who had survived for a couple years in the zombie apocalypse, somehow hanging onto his sister, only to lose everything in a few minutes.
Maybe he makes sense but I don't think so. If Kenny's girlfriend dying was enough to break him, then how much worse should it be for Arvo?
Arvo never sees Natasha turn, from his point of view she had regained consciousness and Clem shot her in cold blood. That's why he hates Clem so much. Plus Clem only gets one opportunity to talk to Arvo in the whole episode and none of the dialogue options allow her to explain what she did.
Well we don't know now, do we? Arvo's backstory isn't explained at all. For all we know he just stepped foot off a dang boat circling the Arctic. It's as valid an interpretation as any and makes sense narratively speaking for him to have not ever seen anyone come back from anything except walker bites. Otherwise, he has no motivation to shoot Clem and it's just plain lazy writing (which it is, but still it's obvious he believed his sister was still alive and not a zombie.)
And I wasn't saying his reason for shooting Clem was her association with Kenny. Sorry I didn't fully write out my thoughts clearly. I just remembered how annoyed I was playing the game that every character lumped Clem in as being super close with Kenny for no discernible reason. I mentioned it here to mean that Arvo could possibly have been afraid of and hated Clem because of her association with Kenny, enough to color his perception of Clem no matter how you play her the same way it colors other characters' perception of Clem and Kenny's relationship, PLUS her shooting his sister.
The writing for Arvo was just plain bad. I mean, there's not even any difference in the dialogue between stealing or not stealing from him. But still, I doubt Telltale meant for him to be evil for the sake of being evil, which is apparently your reasoning as to why he shot Clem.
Its been like 2 years since the outbreak. I highly doubt no one died of anything but walker bites in all that time. And like I said, since h… moree was doing CPR, he must have know her heart stopped (There is -no- point to him doing CPR otherwise. If her heart and breathing were fine he would have been putting pressure on her wound). You live in a world of zombies, where the dead come back to life, if someone starts moving after being shot and having their heart stop then your first thought should not be "oh, she must have magically resuscitated herself while I wasnt looking".
So you are saying he shot her cuz of her association with Kenny? Thats even a worse reason then if he blamed her for killing his sister. And I really dont see why he would assume Clem has strong association with Kenny if she spends the whole time arguing with him and defending Arvo?
I kinda thought Arvo was stashing supplies to run away with his sister, because stuffing supplies in a trash can a day's+ walk from camp seems like an odd thing to do. But that doesn't actually make much sense. Because if he was stealing from his own group, what benefit would it be to Arvo to confess to having stolen the supplies originally to have them then be stolen from him?
If he was stealing, he'd have to confess to being the thief first before he could even begin pointing fingers. And the other Russians didn't treat Arvo like a thief. So I think whatever it was he was doing, it wasn't stealing from his own.
We obviously don't know for sure, but I kinda think Arvo was screwing both groups. I think he tried to steal supplies from his own group, go… moret caught by Clem and Jane and went away with no gun (with or without supplies). He got back to his group and they wanted to know where his gun was or/and supplies. Even if you did nothing wrong, he blames Clems group of stealing them which resulted in the Russians going after Clem's group.
You're trolling right? Arvo doesn't even have a gun when the Russians show up. AJ and Arvo are literally the only unarmed characters in the entire standoff xD At best, he'd be an accessory to the crime since he was translating the Russians' demands. Anyway, armed robbery or even murder doesn't come with a "beating to death" sentence. How Kenny treated him was wrong and cruel, plain and simple. Kenny didn't even try to cause Carver, a guy who personally killed Kenny's friends, as much pain and suffering as he did Arvo.
Wow, so many points to easily dismiss!
Kenny had every right to try to escape his imprisonment, he did Carver no wrong, he drew the walke… morers to the store because of this. Everything Carver got he deserved and then some.
Whatever Carver's reasons, there is no doubt, killing Kenny's friend who had done no wrong, then imprisoning Kenny, is wrong in every regard.
And what crimes did Arvo commit? Attempted armed robbery with clear intent to kill isnt a crime anymore? If you went to court with that case, baring any sort of deal for Arvo to testify against the others, hed be going away a long time. Kenny's slurs are excusable because hes RIGHTFULLY angry at him for bringing armed gunmen to come and KILL HIM. How do you not see this? Hes treating Arvo FAR better than Arvo had treated him, its a very easy comparison. Ive explained how Arvo is cowardly and remorseless, he doesnt care that he brought said armed gunmen to kill a bunch of people w… [view original content]
That doesn't make sense. If he stole those supplies from his own group, what possible reason could he have to confess and tell the other Russians he was then robbed of the stolen supplies, because he'd have to confess to being a thief and having stolen the supplies in the first place before he could even begin pointing fingers. It did not appear to me that the others treated him like a thief. We don't know why he was out, but it's almost certainly not because of that.
I've got little sympathy for him. He stole supplies from his own group (why else was he out?), got caught by Clem and Jane and despite not s… moretealing from him, he said we did to his group to cover his own back. Then was happy to see Clem's group fall apart.
Arvo never sees Natasha turn, from his point of view she had regained consciousness and Clem shot her in cold blood. That's why he hates Cle… morem so much. Plus Clem only gets one opportunity to talk to Arvo in the whole episode and none of the dialogue options allow her to explain what she did.
It's just... too dangerous to let one thought over you... like Lilly in S1E3, the Stranger in S1, Nick in S2E2, Kenny in S2 after Sarita was dead/bitten, etc.
What's worse, the thought can be a good one... Lilly was trying to protect the group from those she thought were dangerous ones, and she became the dangerous one...Nick just wanted to do something for his group after Pete was dead, and he shot an innocent, good guy...Kenny in the last two esipodes just wanted to protect AJ, but Jesus, he really didn't need to do that shit to Arvo and Jane.
"Little girl" or not, it is common sense to train a weapon on those you are not familiar with, and especially those who sneak up behind you (and since Jane ended up ambushing him, he was right in his initial distrust). He just wanted to leave peacefully (though who really knows why he came in the first place). I will point out also that Arvo is limping in the scene before you even interact with him, so he was injured at some point, though it was probably recent given his skittish behavior (I can think of a couple possibilities). He also never outright lies to you, telling you the meds are for his sister (nothing we can prove, though we do see he actually has a sister) and he even tells you he has many "friends" (though he could be using the word loosely, his English comes off as second hand).
Even if you don't take his meds, you (specifically Jane, but its all the same to him and his group) still took his gun. While we can argue about the sensibility of that action, the point is he had to return sans weapon, and that could easily tick off his group. Now, how that interaction went down is anybody's guess. Based on the groups hostility, mine is that he wasn't about to lie about where his weapon went off to, probably only agreed to the groups plan reluctantly, and even protests the standoff during the exchange. He doesn't want shooting or anybody getting physically hurt.
The way he is presented is as being part of a hostile group but not actually bad guy himself, which makes his later treatment all the more sympathetic. Which is why I say he was handled as a character to be more of a victim than a villain, like the topic creator mentioned. And then he shot Clem, and everybody automatically jumps on his case instead of thinking about what led him down that road. Does it excuse or justify his actions? I will say no, but I also will say that it wasn't outright malice and villainous intent. If we ever encounter him again, I think my Clem can forgive him this lapse in judgement.
That wasnt Janes fault. He pointed the gun at a little girl and he is obviously twitchy as hell. He is also a complete stranger who wandered… more too close to our group and the pregnant lady about to give birth. Who in their right mind would give him the gun back?
But I dont see why he has to be painted as one or the other. I thought he was a "villain" when he lied and got us into this mess in the first place, but I also saw him as a victim when Kenny was beating him.
Do I need to make a comment to say that I completely agree with everything that you typed? No. It adds nothing to the discussion. But I will anyway. =P
It also seemed to me that telltale just dropped the ball with the whole situation (even though I still really like the episode, and season 2 in general). Every interaction you have with Arvo is hostile, and especially upon reflection, it just seems that a bunch of characterization all around got railroaded in order to have conflict.
This is a good thread. It doesn't excuse his actions but it really does a good job of coming up with an explanation for what he did. People … moredon't have to sympathize with him, and I understand completely why they wouldn't. (Even though I don't feel the same, I like his character, always have since his first appearance...)
After finding the translation video, if it is correct, then it pretty much confirms that during the shootout, Arvo didn't know his sister had turned and therefore when Clementine shot her, he assumed it to be murder. I used to think that Arvo knew she turned and hated Clementine still, and I thought it was very dumb of him to hate her so much, especially if she had been nice to him most of the time. But now things make a lot more sense. I wish Telltale had some sort of translation subtitle for him.
I was very annoyed that they didn't do more with Arvo. Not being given the chance to have a discussion with him and explain… [view original content]
With a few days of reflection, Mike and Bonnie's actions seem a bit more OOC than they are outright stupid, especially given that Bonnie has a handful of positive personal interactions with Clementine. It wouldn't take much for 3 adults to subdue Kenny (if it came to that) and head off back to Howe's, or even just outright split the loot honestly and go their separate ways. It now seems to me that Telltale merely wanted to force a conflict mostly to make Kenny flip out even more and bring a bigger dynamic to the final choice. It does seem rather odd they reacted the way they did so suddenly just because of the actions of a man with slipping sanity.
That and I also still stand by my view that there are most likely a bunch of mitigating factors to the whole ordeal than the outright "betrayal" everyone is screaming, trying to demonize them rather then think.
Sorry, I personally cannot see the thought process behind stealing ALL the food and only working car, thereby leaving a little girl and a ba… moreby (who they have gotten to know and seem to feel some kind of affection for) to essentially DIE, while at the same time caring enough about Arvo being beaten that you take him along. Wanting to leave? Sure. Being angry at how Arvo is treated? Yes. Sneaking away cuz they are scared of Kenny? Eh, ok. But I dont see how you can "understand" leaving everyone else to die while caring enough to save Arvo. That just does not seem logical to me so I personally cannot see where they are coming from.
He returns to his group, even if you don't take the medicine, without his weapon, which is a huge commodity in the zombie apocalypse. They likely inquired about what happened. Was he about to lie to his group just because Clem convinced Jane to let him go? Most likely they forced him to lead them to Clementine, act as a distraction for the ambush, and to translate their demands. They are likely a bunch of thugs and he was merely along for the ride because of complicated relationships that we aren't given a chance to be privy to. He then loses his sister right in front of his eyes and ends up being taken prisoner. And then derided and hounded and savagely beaten (even though he was defenseless and fully cooperating).
So, as was posited to you already, what were his crimes again? Shooting Clem? The whole point of this post is to set aside your emotions and prejudices to try and see things from a different perspective, rather than just hate on a guy based on flimsy (at best) reasoning.
Wow, so many points to easily dismiss!
Kenny had every right to try to escape his imprisonment, he did Carver no wrong, he drew the walke… morers to the store because of this. Everything Carver got he deserved and then some.
Whatever Carver's reasons, there is no doubt, killing Kenny's friend who had done no wrong, then imprisoning Kenny, is wrong in every regard.
And what crimes did Arvo commit? Attempted armed robbery with clear intent to kill isnt a crime anymore? If you went to court with that case, baring any sort of deal for Arvo to testify against the others, hed be going away a long time. Kenny's slurs are excusable because hes RIGHTFULLY angry at him for bringing armed gunmen to come and KILL HIM. How do you not see this? Hes treating Arvo FAR better than Arvo had treated him, its a very easy comparison. Ive explained how Arvo is cowardly and remorseless, he doesnt care that he brought said armed gunmen to kill a bunch of people w… [view original content]
You compare this to the Lilly situation? I compare this more to the Vernon situation. You can be nothing but nice to him and his group but he still winds up stealing your boat and wounding Ken or Ben.
I never hated Arvo, I truly did felt sympathy for him when he was chained up alone in the cold whistle everyone else was sitting by the fire, but I take in the fact how he yells at Clem and Mike when both are just trying to be nice. I was nothing but nice to the guy and even if you surrender your gun he still shoots you, now that isn't a good guy.
Well, first off, he has no reason to believe that Jane isn't a part of your group, so has no reason to make that distinction. You can even bring the distinction up while conversing during the ambush, and he is confused that she isn't with you, considering it a trap.
Second, as has been said, we know nothing of his backstory and how he and his sister got involved with this group. I don't think its that he doesn't have sympathy for Clem but that he likely was forced into the situation of leading his group to Clem's and acting as a distraction and translator for the ambush. Later, after seeing his sister be shot by Clem, and her association with Kenny, perhaps whatever sympathy he might have had was dashed.
It does come down to the actions we take, but those actions are, surprise, fueled by actual human emotion, and emotions are anything but rational. I say, at the end of the day, its about knowing that humans are flawed and people's actions, no matter how seemingly heinous, aren't black and white, and it is ultimately context that matters most.
Did everyone forget that Arvo blamed the entire group for the actions of Jane? Also, Jane took his weapon but Clementine chose to not take … moreanything from the bag. He could have lightened the situation by explaining to his group that all Jane took was his weapon and that Clementine returned his meds. Also, while everyones also on the Arvo pity wagon, I can turn the discussion around. Why didn't Arno feel some sympathy for Clementine as well? I mean we are in a world where normally good folks are forced to do bad things, what about Arno giving a little of that understanding out when he explained how he lost his weapon to his group. All the negativity between Kenny and Arno stems from the groups clashing at the end of episode 4.
At the end of the day, it comes down to the decisions a person makes whether it be Rick, Lee or Clementine or Arvo. A decision, good or bad, is still a choice and responsibility must be taken.
Well, a couple of things. They wouldn't necessarily kill him or abandon him on the spot for stealing from them. He could have sold out Clem and her group to save his own skin when he got discovered, and got used as a guide, a distraction, and a translator of the demands.
Another possibility is that he took them from some alternate group. When we first see him with the meds, he is limping and obviously skittish, so he might have recently been in a scuffle where he got injured.
I kinda thought Arvo was stashing supplies to run away with his sister, because stuffing supplies in a trash can a day's+ walk from camp see… morems like an odd thing to do. But that doesn't actually make much sense. Because if he was stealing from his own group, what benefit would it be to Arvo to confess to having stolen the supplies originally to have them then be stolen from him?
If he was stealing, he'd have to confess to being the thief first before he could even begin pointing fingers. And the other Russians didn't treat Arvo like a thief. So I think whatever it was he was doing, it wasn't stealing from his own.
I didn't say they would kill or abandon Arvo for stealing, but they obviously still trust him and Arvo doesn't really seem scared of them, and most importantly they don't mention him being a thief amongst their dialogue, which if Arvo was a thief is what should have happened. Comparing the thieves (Clem's group and Arvo) would be an easy line to give the backstory if that was intended. How would Arvo get discovered so quickly anyway if he didn't pointlessly confess?
As to the other possibility, sure Arvo's group could have been thieves in general (but then so is Lee and Clem's groups). But in some of the translations I've seen (which I'm honestly not sure are unused lines, made up or what, but assuming they're true canon) they seem surprised and frustrated by Clem's group not putting down their arms, I think they even say 'they're not surrendering because they're stubborn Americans.' They're obviously shitty shots too, at least when shooting at living people. Which would imply the Russians aren't experienced at armed robbery.
Arvo's handling of his gun very poorly in his first appearance, looking so sad and remorseful when the other Russians ambush Clem's group, freaking the hell out at the possibility of a firefight and coming into it unarmed proves Arvo's definitely not an experienced armed robber, or even an experienced translator for his fellows hypothetical armed robbery attempts.
Also I think Arvo's limping because, in case you didn't notice, he has a leg brace. xD Those limit your leg movement ya know. And he's skittish because he's alone and was startled. I like Arvo and he obviously has some moments of bravery, but still I somehow doubt he'd steal from another group all by himself. Sure, he could have, or his group could have stole the meds and he was in charge of hiding them temporarily, but let's be honest that's all speculation with nothing in the canon to back it up.
Why do you so want to believe Arvo's a thief, anyway?
Well, a couple of things. They wouldn't necessarily kill him or abandon him on the spot for stealing from them. He could have sold out Clem … moreand her group to save his own skin when he got discovered, and got used as a guide, a distraction, and a translator of the demands.
Another possibility is that he took them from some alternate group. When we first see him with the meds, he is limping and obviously skittish, so he might have recently been in a scuffle where he got injured.
You know, after seeing the translation of what he said...
I hate him even more... frankly, if Clem was nice to him he would not have shot… more here, if he was so good, this here proves that he's just pure evil for shooting an 11 year old girl. Full Stop.
You people need to stop with this 'Arvo is pure evil' bull, because he clearly isn't. He might not show compassion to Clementine or her group but he does to his sister--enough so that he feels compelled to exact revenge against the person he believed to have killed her. YES, he made an incredibly shitty decision and NO, you don't have to take pity on him or forgive him--because I, for the last time, d o n o t take any sort of pity on him--you just have to understand that he's a human being just like everyone else and has his own personal weaknesses and faults.
I agree that their actions were very OOC and blame TellTale for their bad writing. Which is also why I don't believe that there were any mitigating factors. This is a game, not real life, and I don't believe the writers created these "mitigating" factors that they then didn't bother showing anyone or even hinting at.
I also cannot, for the life of me, think of any logical, off screen factors that would make their actions make sense. I'm curious if you have any in mind?
With a few days of reflection, Mike and Bonnie's actions seem a bit more OOC than they are outright stupid, especially given that Bonnie has… more a handful of positive personal interactions with Clementine. It wouldn't take much for 3 adults to subdue Kenny (if it came to that) and head off back to Howe's, or even just outright split the loot honestly and go their separate ways. It now seems to me that Telltale merely wanted to force a conflict mostly to make Kenny flip out even more and bring a bigger dynamic to the final choice. It does seem rather odd they reacted the way they did so suddenly just because of the actions of a man with slipping sanity.
That and I also still stand by my view that there are most likely a bunch of mitigating factors to the whole ordeal than the outright "betrayal" everyone is screaming, trying to demonize them rather then think.
Comments
Yes, which is why I specifically said maybe he was stealing for his own use (due to his leg) and maybe he said sick sister to get more sympathy and/or to not appear weak in front of strangers.
Really, Arvo killed everyone. He caused Lukes death from the shoot out, and that caused the group to break down from his death.
Sorry, I personally cannot see the thought process behind stealing ALL the food and only working car, thereby leaving a little girl and a baby (who they have gotten to know and seem to feel some kind of affection for) to essentially DIE, while at the same time caring enough about Arvo being beaten that you take him along. Wanting to leave? Sure. Being angry at how Arvo is treated? Yes. Sneaking away cuz they are scared of Kenny? Eh, ok. But I dont see how you can "understand" leaving everyone else to die while caring enough to save Arvo. That just does not seem logical to me so I personally cannot see where they are coming from.
Um? This is about Arvo, not Mike and Bonnie.
I don't, but a friend of mine does. He wanted to share so I said go nuts with it. It would reach a lot more people on Tumblr, anyway.
Did you even read my whole post? No, you obviously didn't because I state /multiple times/ that the only purpose of this is to get people to see that people make shitty choices--you don't have forgive them or sympathize with them for their shitty choices, but make an effort to understand what led them to come to their shitty choices.
I read the entire post, however I still think all his choices aren't justified.
FUCK ARVO
The group broke down because of Kenny, but Luke's death was also bad for it.
I believe Arvo hated Clem more than he does for Kenny. Arvo isnt a brave person but he is brave for his sister. It shows that somehow, his sister has a higher priority than he does in his mind. That's why he shot Clem who killed his sister instead of Kenny and/or Jane who attacked him.
And yes, I'm glad he stood up against Kenny's abuses. It felt as though the group should have reacted more strongly against it but they didn't...
Actually, its not. While your general thread may be about Arvo, I was specifically responding to IcepickEvans and their comment regarding Mike and Bonnie.
Buricko decided to rob us only after Arvo lied and told him we stole his medicine. Buricko also only shot at our group after we fired the first shot and before that kept trying to get Arvo to make us put our guns down when they could just as easily killed us as we were walking down the road. Dont put all the blame on Buricko when it was Arvo who lied and started the whole mess. Its his own fault his sister got shot.
I don't hate Arvo, but don't expect me not to return the favour if we every see him again.
That wasnt Janes fault. He pointed the gun at a little girl and he is obviously twitchy as hell. He is also a complete stranger who wandered too close to our group and the pregnant lady about to give birth. Who in their right mind would give him the gun back?
But I dont see why he has to be painted as one or the other. I thought he was a "villain" when he lied and got us into this mess in the first place, but I also saw him as a victim when Kenny was beating him.
I don't recall him being defiant. Not answering Kenny immediately in English whenever Kenny demanded an answer is not being defiant. It's closer to being in shock and not paying attention to what is happening around you, and not caring. And he's only leading them to the house because he really doesn't want to die, and that's the only thing he can do to not die.
That Kenny sees it as being defiant just shows how racist Kenny is, that he still thinks calling someone a Commie makes sense. Anything Arvo did would have been taken in the worst possible light by Kenny. From leading them to the exact place he told them he was leading them, to running away when walkers show up.
Arvo never sees Natasha turn, from his point of view she had regained consciousness and Clem shot her in cold blood. That's why he hates Clem so much. Plus Clem only gets one opportunity to talk to Arvo in the whole episode and none of the dialogue options allow her to explain what she did.
You could always return the bullet though.
Well we don't know now, do we? Arvo's backstory isn't explained at all. For all we know he just stepped foot off a dang boat circling the Arctic. It's as valid an interpretation as any and makes sense narratively speaking for him to have not ever seen anyone come back from anything except walker bites. Otherwise, he has no motivation to shoot Clem and it's just plain lazy writing (which it is, but still it's obvious he believed his sister was still alive and not a zombie.)
And I wasn't saying his reason for shooting Clem was her association with Kenny. Sorry I didn't fully write out my thoughts clearly. I just remembered how annoyed I was playing the game that every character lumped Clem in as being super close with Kenny for no discernible reason. I mentioned it here to mean that Arvo could possibly have been afraid of and hated Clem because of her association with Kenny, enough to color his perception of Clem no matter how you play her the same way it colors other characters' perception of Clem and Kenny's relationship, PLUS her shooting his sister.
The writing for Arvo was just plain bad. I mean, there's not even any difference in the dialogue between stealing or not stealing from him. But still, I doubt Telltale meant for him to be evil for the sake of being evil, which is apparently your reasoning as to why he shot Clem.
I kinda thought Arvo was stashing supplies to run away with his sister, because stuffing supplies in a trash can a day's+ walk from camp seems like an odd thing to do. But that doesn't actually make much sense. Because if he was stealing from his own group, what benefit would it be to Arvo to confess to having stolen the supplies originally to have them then be stolen from him?
If he was stealing, he'd have to confess to being the thief first before he could even begin pointing fingers. And the other Russians didn't treat Arvo like a thief. So I think whatever it was he was doing, it wasn't stealing from his own.
You're trolling right? Arvo doesn't even have a gun when the Russians show up. AJ and Arvo are literally the only unarmed characters in the entire standoff xD At best, he'd be an accessory to the crime since he was translating the Russians' demands. Anyway, armed robbery or even murder doesn't come with a "beating to death" sentence. How Kenny treated him was wrong and cruel, plain and simple. Kenny didn't even try to cause Carver, a guy who personally killed Kenny's friends, as much pain and suffering as he did Arvo.
That doesn't make sense. If he stole those supplies from his own group, what possible reason could he have to confess and tell the other Russians he was then robbed of the stolen supplies, because he'd have to confess to being a thief and having stolen the supplies in the first place before he could even begin pointing fingers. It did not appear to me that the others treated him like a thief. We don't know why he was out, but it's almost certainly not because of that.
true.
It's just... too dangerous to let one thought over you... like Lilly in S1E3, the Stranger in S1, Nick in S2E2, Kenny in S2 after Sarita was dead/bitten, etc.
What's worse, the thought can be a good one... Lilly was trying to protect the group from those she thought were dangerous ones, and she became the dangerous one...Nick just wanted to do something for his group after Pete was dead, and he shot an innocent, good guy...Kenny in the last two esipodes just wanted to protect AJ, but Jesus, he really didn't need to do that shit to Arvo and Jane.
This is the Zombie apocalypse, he shot Clem for no reason, so if I ever see this little sh*t again and have the chance, I will take him out.
f*ck Arvo.
The translation actually confirms that Arvo had no idea she was dead.
'Please, let me go! I need to see if she's alright!
Yeah, at first I was a bit sympathetic towards him but after he ambushed us and said I robbed him when I didn't, I stopped caring. Fuck that guy.
Thats a stretch, blaming everything on Arvo.
"Little girl" or not, it is common sense to train a weapon on those you are not familiar with, and especially those who sneak up behind you (and since Jane ended up ambushing him, he was right in his initial distrust). He just wanted to leave peacefully (though who really knows why he came in the first place). I will point out also that Arvo is limping in the scene before you even interact with him, so he was injured at some point, though it was probably recent given his skittish behavior (I can think of a couple possibilities). He also never outright lies to you, telling you the meds are for his sister (nothing we can prove, though we do see he actually has a sister) and he even tells you he has many "friends" (though he could be using the word loosely, his English comes off as second hand).
Even if you don't take his meds, you (specifically Jane, but its all the same to him and his group) still took his gun. While we can argue about the sensibility of that action, the point is he had to return sans weapon, and that could easily tick off his group. Now, how that interaction went down is anybody's guess. Based on the groups hostility, mine is that he wasn't about to lie about where his weapon went off to, probably only agreed to the groups plan reluctantly, and even protests the standoff during the exchange. He doesn't want shooting or anybody getting physically hurt.
The way he is presented is as being part of a hostile group but not actually bad guy himself, which makes his later treatment all the more sympathetic. Which is why I say he was handled as a character to be more of a victim than a villain, like the topic creator mentioned. And then he shot Clem, and everybody automatically jumps on his case instead of thinking about what led him down that road. Does it excuse or justify his actions? I will say no, but I also will say that it wasn't outright malice and villainous intent. If we ever encounter him again, I think my Clem can forgive him this lapse in judgement.
Do I need to make a comment to say that I completely agree with everything that you typed? No. It adds nothing to the discussion. But I will anyway. =P
It also seemed to me that telltale just dropped the ball with the whole situation (even though I still really like the episode, and season 2 in general). Every interaction you have with Arvo is hostile, and especially upon reflection, it just seems that a bunch of characterization all around got railroaded in order to have conflict.
With a few days of reflection, Mike and Bonnie's actions seem a bit more OOC than they are outright stupid, especially given that Bonnie has a handful of positive personal interactions with Clementine. It wouldn't take much for 3 adults to subdue Kenny (if it came to that) and head off back to Howe's, or even just outright split the loot honestly and go their separate ways. It now seems to me that Telltale merely wanted to force a conflict mostly to make Kenny flip out even more and bring a bigger dynamic to the final choice. It does seem rather odd they reacted the way they did so suddenly just because of the actions of a man with slipping sanity.
That and I also still stand by my view that there are most likely a bunch of mitigating factors to the whole ordeal than the outright "betrayal" everyone is screaming, trying to demonize them rather then think.
He returns to his group, even if you don't take the medicine, without his weapon, which is a huge commodity in the zombie apocalypse. They likely inquired about what happened. Was he about to lie to his group just because Clem convinced Jane to let him go? Most likely they forced him to lead them to Clementine, act as a distraction for the ambush, and to translate their demands. They are likely a bunch of thugs and he was merely along for the ride because of complicated relationships that we aren't given a chance to be privy to. He then loses his sister right in front of his eyes and ends up being taken prisoner. And then derided and hounded and savagely beaten (even though he was defenseless and fully cooperating).
So, as was posited to you already, what were his crimes again? Shooting Clem? The whole point of this post is to set aside your emotions and prejudices to try and see things from a different perspective, rather than just hate on a guy based on flimsy (at best) reasoning.
You compare this to the Lilly situation? I compare this more to the Vernon situation. You can be nothing but nice to him and his group but he still winds up stealing your boat and wounding Ken or Ben.
I never hated Arvo, I truly did felt sympathy for him when he was chained up alone in the cold whistle everyone else was sitting by the fire, but I take in the fact how he yells at Clem and Mike when both are just trying to be nice. I was nothing but nice to the guy and even if you surrender your gun he still shoots you, now that isn't a good guy.
Well, first off, he has no reason to believe that Jane isn't a part of your group, so has no reason to make that distinction. You can even bring the distinction up while conversing during the ambush, and he is confused that she isn't with you, considering it a trap.
Second, as has been said, we know nothing of his backstory and how he and his sister got involved with this group. I don't think its that he doesn't have sympathy for Clem but that he likely was forced into the situation of leading his group to Clem's and acting as a distraction and translator for the ambush. Later, after seeing his sister be shot by Clem, and her association with Kenny, perhaps whatever sympathy he might have had was dashed.
It does come down to the actions we take, but those actions are, surprise, fueled by actual human emotion, and emotions are anything but rational. I say, at the end of the day, its about knowing that humans are flawed and people's actions, no matter how seemingly heinous, aren't black and white, and it is ultimately context that matters most.
I was nothing but nice to Arvo, and he does tat, so......yeah f him
Well, a couple of things. They wouldn't necessarily kill him or abandon him on the spot for stealing from them. He could have sold out Clem and her group to save his own skin when he got discovered, and got used as a guide, a distraction, and a translator of the demands.
Another possibility is that he took them from some alternate group. When we first see him with the meds, he is limping and obviously skittish, so he might have recently been in a scuffle where he got injured.
But right, fuck the ruskie
I didn't say they would kill or abandon Arvo for stealing, but they obviously still trust him and Arvo doesn't really seem scared of them, and most importantly they don't mention him being a thief amongst their dialogue, which if Arvo was a thief is what should have happened. Comparing the thieves (Clem's group and Arvo) would be an easy line to give the backstory if that was intended. How would Arvo get discovered so quickly anyway if he didn't pointlessly confess?
As to the other possibility, sure Arvo's group could have been thieves in general (but then so is Lee and Clem's groups). But in some of the translations I've seen (which I'm honestly not sure are unused lines, made up or what, but assuming they're true canon) they seem surprised and frustrated by Clem's group not putting down their arms, I think they even say 'they're not surrendering because they're stubborn Americans.' They're obviously shitty shots too, at least when shooting at living people. Which would imply the Russians aren't experienced at armed robbery.
Arvo's handling of his gun very poorly in his first appearance, looking so sad and remorseful when the other Russians ambush Clem's group, freaking the hell out at the possibility of a firefight and coming into it unarmed proves Arvo's definitely not an experienced armed robber, or even an experienced translator for his fellows hypothetical armed robbery attempts.
Also I think Arvo's limping because, in case you didn't notice, he has a leg brace. xD Those limit your leg movement ya know. And he's skittish because he's alone and was startled. I like Arvo and he obviously has some moments of bravery, but still I somehow doubt he'd steal from another group all by himself. Sure, he could have, or his group could have stole the meds and he was in charge of hiding them temporarily, but let's be honest that's all speculation with nothing in the canon to back it up.
Why do you so want to believe Arvo's a thief, anyway?
What translation did you see?
You people need to stop with this 'Arvo is pure evil' bull, because he clearly isn't. He might not show compassion to Clementine or her group but he does to his sister--enough so that he feels compelled to exact revenge against the person he believed to have killed her. YES, he made an incredibly shitty decision and NO, you don't have to take pity on him or forgive him--because I, for the last time, d o n o t take any sort of pity on him--you just have to understand that he's a human being just like everyone else and has his own personal weaknesses and faults.
End line--he's no Hitler.
I agree that their actions were very OOC and blame TellTale for their bad writing. Which is also why I don't believe that there were any mitigating factors. This is a game, not real life, and I don't believe the writers created these "mitigating" factors that they then didn't bother showing anyone or even hinting at.
I also cannot, for the life of me, think of any logical, off screen factors that would make their actions make sense. I'm curious if you have any in mind?