*Civil* Character Discussion for Kenny/Jane choice: The Megathread - Discussion only goes here now
Blind Sniper
Moderator
Walking Dead Episode 205: No Going Back
Official Megathread for civil Character Discussion
Pizza/Ice Cream discussion only goes here now, and old threads will be locked (and will not be merged unless they are already civil). Please report other threads using the Flag button so we can close them.
The other moderators and I have noticed that - as of lately - the forums are being placed into a heated, passionate debate about the choice you made in Episode 205. Initially, we chose not to intervene when people got upset at insults against fictional characters as they are just that - fictional. However, upon looking over the state of the forums as of lately, it appears things could be better.
Because of that, I'm creating a central thread where people can discuss the "Pizza/Ice Cream" choice players made in Episode 205 in a thread that will have less toleration of character insults made to provoke forum drama. Normally, I would choose to merge all the currently existing threads into this one large thread. However, the currently existing threads are filled with drama over users disagreeing with how they view other characters, and this new thread is intended to purge the forums of the drama while still allowing you to discuss the choice. I'm choosing to add new rules to this particular thread to prevent forum drama from spreading further. Because I cannot apply new rules to retroactive posts, I'm instead choosing to make this thread a new start for the Pizza/Ice Cream choice discussion.
If you see a post breaking one of these guidelines for maintaining civil discussion about the choice in this particular thread, report it using the Flag button at the upper righthand corner of a post. Since this megathread is being made, new threads discussing the character aspect of the choice will be locked, so please report new threads as well.
Maintaining Civil Discussion:
- Criticism of characters is allowed, but insults and exaggerations of characters are not as they prevent civil discussion. If you criticize a character, back it up with why you believe that criticism is valid.
- Refrain from posts that refer to an ending objectively being better over another ending - or posts that insinuate an ending is "wrong" or "right."
- Memes, Gifs, Images, etc of Character deaths that are posted mockingly do not allow for civil discussion. Refrain from posting them.
- In addition to the rules specifically for this thread, the forum guidelines still apply here as well. Please conduct respectful and civil discussion.
Comments
Thread: To whomever it may concern (so probably most forum members)
I believe in people having a right to express their opinion on a subject and since just about everyone else had already added their input I figured it was the time for me to add my part.
I have seen both sides of the argument, read MANY people's opinions and in the end this helped me create my own (you should always have your own opinion BUT be open to what others think and accept fair and constructive criticism)
It is clear to me that some people can not and will not change their mind about this particular subject but I have this to say first:
Jane manipulated Clementine (and a whole lot of players for that matter) into killing Kenny.
You cannot deny this by saying that you didn't shoot him, because it doesn't change anything about the fact that most people did it anyway.
Now the moral implications of doing either of those are presented:
Do you let Kenny, someone who obviously is capable of going to extreme lengths to protect Clementine and AJ, kill Jane?
Or do you shoot Kenny? To save Jane from a fight she started, could probably end before it escalated further by saying AJ is okay and specifically told you to stay out of.
The decision is as always up to you, but I would be lying if I said that I didn't have to rewind my first "canon" playthrough simply because I just couldn't live with what I had done. I even have this as my desktop background to remind me of it every time I look at it.
Now feel free to disagree with me on this, but in my honest opinion, ALL things considered, you shouldn't shoot Kenny, even though it means letting him kill Jane. There are many things to consider when doing this such as: Is Wellington safe? Can you stay with Kenny and be sure it will work? Is going alone with AJ really a good option? Would going back with Jane to Hove's turn out to be a good idea? Can you trust that family enough to let them stay with you? Or did turning this family away mean they are going to want revenge?
The problem here is simple, we just don't know and as Lee mentioned sometimes there just isn't a right answer, it is only up to you to decide what is right for YOUR Clementine.
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Who should be the protagonist for Season 3?
I feel the need to address this issue as well, now I get it some people want to play as someone other than Clementine for different reasons, the biggest problem being that there are 5 endings (actually 7, the alone ending has 3 variations) and Telltale would have to somehow tie it all together without making our choices seem pointless. One idea was to have an alternate beginning to S3 EP1 based on your ending and then having them join together at a certain point into one storyline.
A different idea was based on having a DLC before Season 3 is released, that resolves this by having Clementine eventually arrive at the same place (perhaps a town, settlement or just a landmark or whatever) but having a different journey there based on your ending.
Nevertheless I think that Clementine's story shouldn't end just yet, there is still so much potential for her character and not continuing her story would feel like a waste to me honestly.
I also want you to realise that the majority of people want to have Clementine as the protagonist for Season 3, that is based on this poll and this questionnaire . Even though Telltale are probably going to do what they want, it is pretty likely that they will gravitate towards what the majority wants when deciding.
TL:DR version: People are entitled to their own opinion, but I believe that you shouldn't kill Kenny and that Clementine should be the Season 3 protagonist.
" TL:DR version: People are entitled to their own opinion, but I believe that you shouldn't kill Kenny and that Clementine should be the Season 3 protagonist. "
I agree with the first half of that I love Kenny and also think he is the right choice, but not so sure about the second half.I have nothing against and will still buy it if Clementine is the protagonist, but I would prefer a new protagonist. Like you said just my opinion though. :P
That is actually a very well explained opinion, but i still have to disagree with it. What Jane did was wrong, and as much as i love Kenny i couldnt let him kill an innocent person, so in my mind, killing Kenny stopped him from becoming a murderer, he even tells you that you made the Right choice if you kill him, but thats just My opinion
My Clem would've shot Kenny in a heartbeat. My Lee never got along with Kenny at all. Kenny was nothing but a jerk to my Lee from the start because he tried to save Hershel's son instead of Kenny's brat (a 20-something man is far more useful in the apocalypse then a mentally limited schoolboy..) My Lee also wasn't a d-bag, so he didn't kill Larry, he didn't abandon Lilly, and he didn't drop Ben to his death. So, Kenny refused to help my Lee search for Clem, after some BS about being a Christian man, blah, blah.
Anyway, my Clem therefore had no reason to like Kenny at all. She didn't hug him, she didn't sit with him, she never took his side, and she never said she trusted him or believed him about anything. Oh, and she definitely never forgave him for being such an a-hole about the whole Sarita thing. Basically, Kenny's resurrection ruined Season 2 for me. The game never really acknowledged any of my choices except for some bit where Kenny whines about me not sitting with him or siding with him, when he apologizes for what a jackass he was over Sarita (and my Clem would've told him to eff off).
Now, I get it that many other people were really attached to Kenny. I don't have any problem if that's how they played their Lee and their Clem. But, if TT is going to give you the option to develop a certain type of relationship with someone, then it should mean something. When it doesn't, and they keep trying to force it in a certain direction, it just turns me off to the whole game.
So, my only issue with the shooting decision is that my Clem would shoot Kenny in the head for sure. Not only to make sure he doesn't turn, but to make sure he can't get "lucky, real lucky" ever again. Sorry, but I just had to vent and your thread happened to be there for me.
seriously? again?
Not judging you, but i just cant understand why anyone whould wanna pick an adult over a child, even if the adult is more helpful
I didn't even think Jane was trying to manipulate me, as soon as Kenny left and she told me not to get involved I thought, oh the baby is alive, and I shot Kenny anyway.
you know what? that actually might be true...manipulating you to kill kenny...
It doesn't really matter to my point why I did it, because regardless I was given the choice and that's the choice I made, along with all the others, that meant my Lee never got along with Kenny. But, to answer your question, in the moment, I thought that Hershel's son was in greater danger. I figured the annoying kid could just hop off the tractor like any normal kid would do if a zombie was coming for it. In short, I figured the kid would make it either way but Hershel's son definitely wouldn't unless I helped him. It's the same basic reason I later tried to pull Omid into the train instead of Christa, because he was limping and she wasn't, so I figured he needed the help more.
But again, my point isn't whether the decision was right or wrong (everyone has the right to their own game decisions, as far as I'm concerned, if given the choice). My point is that these were the decisions that I made, and that's the relationship that my Lee (and my Clem) should've had with Kenny. If TT didn't want it that way, then it shouldn't have been an option.
Well you see the problem here is that Kenny says that you have made the right choice even if you decide to leave him after he kills Jane, you even have the option to kill Kenny AFTER he kills Jane and if you do that all he says is "Do it. Just... just do it". In the end Kenny basically agrees with anything YOUR Clementine decides to do. Also one could say that Kenny technically already is a murderer, he kills Larry without even trying to revive him and he also implies that Lee should drop Ben at the bell tower.
yeah i know, but the other times, him agreeing with Clem just feels... misplaced, letting Clem go with the baby seems like something Kenny would never do, atleast not without a very heated discussion, and the "just do it" shooting in the head, was probably just because he couldnt do it himself, which he already stated back in s1 ep5. The killing Larry thing was a dick move, but he did it with good intentions, he should have waited a little longer, but there was no one, who could know if he would survive or die. The implying to let Ben die, was an asshole move, But if he had killed my wife and child, i think i would be kinda pissed too. Theres a big difference between those two things, and killing an (arguably) okay person, of what Kenny (at the time) knew was an accident, im not saying what Jane did was right, that was a physcho move, but getting killed for it is not right, so even though i love Kenny a LOT!!! more than i like Jane, i chose to shoot him, if it had been Jane i would have shot her too, so its nothing about me liking her more (i left without her), it was simply out of humanity. this is just my opinion, so please dont feel offended
Thread: Analysis: Kenny and Jane fight.
SPOILERS Edit: Added Jane's dialogue after the fight and my thoughts on them 9-2-14
Edit: Added a "Other thoughts" section 9-7-14, which I might update again at some time.
Ok, so I want to give my analysis on the choice that has caused so much debate in episode 5. Whether to kill Kenny or look away and let Kenny kill Jane.
I want to approach this on a morally objective viewpoint. So my choice will not be based upon an emotional bias of liking/disliking Kenny/Jane over the other. My analysis will be limited to just the fight scene and the scene with AJ in the car shortly after the fight ends. So let's begin...
When Jane comes back without the baby it becomes clear to both Kenny and Clementine that something has happened to the baby. Kenny is in denial that the baby is dead so he leaves to find the baby. It's at this point that Jane says something that is vital to our final decision.
Jane: No matter what happens, stay out of it.
A red flag immediately arises when she says to stay out of "it". Obviously, she intends to get into a fight with Kenny. But to what extent and for what purpose is unknown just yet. Now no matter which choice you make at this point Jane responds the same way.
Jane: You have to trust me. You’re gonna see what he really is.
Now, for me at least, this revealed to me that Jane was lying to Clem and Kenny about the baby. And the reason for this was clear: she wanted to show Clem Kenny’s irrational anger and violence to its breaking point. This made me realize that this was Jane's responsibility and that whatever happens next was her doing, her manipulation of events. And hence, Jane was right, Clem should stay out of this, as she wished her to.
At this point you have a choice to make, which really does nothing to stop the inevitable fight. Either choice, you are pushed away by Kenny and he throws a punch at Jane, which she evades and takes out her knife. The dialogue, of course reveals Kenny's thoughts and Jane's "justification" over the baby's supposed death.
Kenny: How could you kill a child.
Jane: I didn’t kill him. It was an ACCIDENT, Kenny.
Kenny: Bullsh---
Jane: I won’t back down from you, Kenny...I’m warning you.
Kenny believes Jane has killed the child, yet Jane claims that the baby's death is an accident. Now, I as a player don’t know whether to believe her, seeing as Jane has shown in the past her reluctance to accept AJ or even care about AJ. She even showed “concern” over Clem getting too close to AJ. But whatever the case, Jane has made it clear she will not back down and takes out her knife just to provoke Kenny to attack her. Now, you are given a few choices at this point. All of which reveals that both Kenny and Jane will not listen to Clem’s plea to reason, Kenny will not let Jane explain herself, and Jane views Kenny as "crazy". But both nonetheless will not back down and each of them tell Clem to "stay back" and "stay out of it".
Jane then slowly puts her knife back into the holster. This of course shows me that Jane wants Clem to see Kenny attack her with her knife shiethed as she has planned all along.
I should note at this point that Clem DOES NOT HAVE TO INTERFERE IN THE FIGHT, at least not physically anyways. And of course you can stay silent all the way through.
At this point Kenny and Jane begin to struggle, and then it leads to Jane slashing Kenny's stomach almost to the point of being fatal, which makes Kenny retreat outside. Now, if this was all Jane's scheme to prove to Clem that Kenny is too irrational and violent to be with, then it would seem reasonable to stop the fight here and tell the truth, but Jane goes on the offensive to kill Kenny as she screams "THIS IS ALL YOUR F-ing FAULT".
I would agree with Jane that it was Kenny’s fault for overreacting and attacking her, but again, this whole event was Jane's own doing because she knew very well that this is what would happen, and thus she's also at fault here.
As Kenny goes on the defensive and Jane goes on the offensive with her knife, Jane calls Kenny a "psycho", but Kenny retorts "THIS IS ON YOU". It is true that Kenny has increasingly become violent and irrationally stubborn, but again this whole situation is still Jane's fault, as she manipulates Kenny into losing control of his senses over AJ's supposed death. A few choices appear before us at this point.
Clementine can either ask Kenny for everyone to sit down and talk, to which Kenny replies, "Words ain't gonna fix this".
Or Clementine can tell Jane to back off, to which Jane completely abandons her plan and reveals her intent to kill Kenny by saying "No, Clem. It's time to put this crusty piece of shiz out of his misery".
Or she can reason with both, pointing out that they’re going to kill each other, to which both of them ignore her.
Or she can get between both Kenny and Jane and she can either hold Jane back and tell her to run, to which she refuses and pushes her down to the ground. Or she can hold Kenny back and tell him to stop, to which he refuses and pushes her down to the ground.
It becomes clear at this point that nothing you say will stop them from fighting as both of them have bloodlust in their eyes. Jane strikes at Kenny, but he flips her over and both fall to the ground. Jane quickly grabs Kenny's injured eye and begins stabbing her fingers into it. Kenny gets her off either by biting Jane's thumb or by Clem's help and quickly grabs the knife and stabs Jane on her leg, pushing Clem back onto the ground and reopening her bullet wound.
Now the moment of truth arrives. You can either honor both Jane's and Kenny's wish to not get involved by not picking up the gun and letting whatever happens happen. Or you can pick up the gun. Of course, by doing this Jane takes notice and asks for your help.
Jane: Clem...help! (It should be noted that she never says this if you don’t pick up the gun.)
Now obviously, this whole situation is made by Jane to look like Kenny is the one who started the fight and that she is the victim in all this, but if you were rightly suspicious of Jane, you would clearly know that Jane played on Kenny’s emotions and pushed the situation too far that now they were at the point of wanting to killing each other. What's worse, now that Jane is asking for Clem’s help at this critical point against her previous wish for Clem to "stay out of it", Clem is essentially being asked to kill her old friend over something that Jane got herself into in the first place.
The choice is clear. Jane was ultimately responsible for all of this, it was her scheme to provoke Kenny, it was her manipulation of Kenny’s already unstable emotions, it was her doing to get Kenny past the breaking point, and this is exactly what she wanted to happen, especially now that she wanted to kill Kenny against her original plan to just reveal Kenny's violent self. Therefore, both Jane and Kenny should be the one to deal with the consequences, not Clementine. Hence, either you don't pick up the gun, or you look away.
Now let's move on to Kenny's justification for killing Jane after realizing that AJ was alive all along.
When Clem tells Kenny that he didn’t have to kill Jane, he responds by saying "It was me or her, Clem. She was trying to kill me too. If she hadn't lied about Alvin here, it wouldn't have gone that far."
Kenny makes two valid point. That Jane was certainly intending to kill Kenny at the end, though not at first. And that if Jane hadn't lied, this whole drama would not have happened, and she wouldn't have died.
When Clem says that she thought Jane had killed AJ, Kenny says, "I was thinking the same thing, Clem. It’s why I was so fired up. She never wanted the baby around. She made that clear."
In this dialogue, Kenny admits that he did lose his senses because he believed Jane had killed AJ. As for his second point, he's right that Jane never wanted the baby around. If Clem had not have had such a close relationship with AJ, Jane would not have cared at all about the baby, especially since she kept referring to AJ as "it".
When Clem asks why Jane would lie about the baby, Kenny replies "She was nut’s Clem. A disturbed person that had her own agenda and was looking out for herself".
I can agree with Kenny that Jane was not thinking straight when she planned this. And she certainly had her own agenda. However, Jane wasn’t entirely looking out for herself, as she did do this for Clem, admittedly against Clem’s wishes, and therefore, serving Jane’s own selfish desire to keep Clem to herself. And I did have this feeling that Jane's attraction to Clem was more of a sister-complex rather than a real sisterly love. Jane was disturbed in that she saw in Clem everything that her sister Jaime wasn't, and therefore, became overly protective of Clem in that she went so far as to get Kenny out of the way.
Kenny goes on to explain, "Hey listen I didn’t want that to happen either. I thought she killed Alvie, Clem. And at any point she could have stopped what was happening by saying he was fine. She wanted a fight. I'd never, ever hurt you. You understand! I was protecting you. You believe me right? Just imagining what she did to Alvie, everything just went black. By the time I got my head straight. It was to late."
Kenny is right, Jane had every opportunity to stop the fight and tell the truth, especially since she proved her point and should have let Clem decide there and then whether to stay with Kenny or leave him. But it became clear that she wanted not only a fight, but Kenny’s death. Again, Kenny admits that he lost his marbles when he believed Jane had killed AJ. And it was his constant thought of what Jane might have done to AJ that fueled him to kill her, something which Jane herself could have stopped if she told the truth “at any point” of the fight, to use Kenny's words.
Next, when Clem points out that Kenny is dangerous, Kenny responds, "You're right Clem. But I'm trying to change. I'm workin' on it. Something broke inside me a long time ago and I've just been trying to hold it together. But I'm doing my best. I really am."
There's a saying "Crazy people don’t know they're crazy". In Kenny’s case, he knew that his violent and arrogant behavior was "crazy", but he himself was not a psychotic person; he still realized his mistakes and even promised to not be so violent. Hence, his statement "I'm trying to change. I'm workin' on it."
And when it came to Clem, he never physically abused her, or lied to her. He even apologized for yelling at her over Sarita's death, recognizing that he went too far and that Clem did her best to help Sarita. Despite his flaws, he nevertheless loved Clem as if she was his own daughter and was loyal to her to the point of getting beat up by Carver to protect her. And though he may have been verbally controlling at times, he nonetheless respected Clem’s choices.
Kenny has gone through so much and tried his best to hold on to his sanity, and for Jane to ruin all his progress just to have Clem for herself is just immoral on so many levels.
As Clem said to Kenny, "You were right about her. She was unstable. Always just looking out for herself."
Now let's examine Jane's justification after realizing that AJ is alive. But before I do, I want to give my reasons for why a player would want to choose to shoot Kenny.
One, the player might have been innocently clueless about Jane's scheme, and therefore, when Kenny was about to kill Jane the player thought that it was morally necessary to stop Kenny, hoping that by shooting Kenny he would not actually die.
Two, the player knew of Jane's scheme and did not approve of it, but nonetheless, thought it pragmatically necessary to stop Kenny whom they saw as a threat.
I can understand players doing it for the first reason, but not for the second. I think those who did it for the second reason were not doing it out of pragmatic necessity, but rather out of fear of what might happen down the road. Essentially, it's not based on practical concerns, but rather irrational theoretical concerns. "Kenny is unstable, so what if Kenny does this or that". It's the kind of mindset that sees the worst in every situation and never gives a chance to anyone because of their distrust of everyone. This is what Jane was thinking, as I will show in my examination of her justification. We begin with Jane’s first dialogue:
Jane: I understand if you're upset. AJ was never in any danger. I was just...going to try to talk you into coming with me. I just thought if you saw Kenny like that you'd know we would have to leave him. Look Clem, I'm sorry. I didn't think Kenny would go that far. But it's over now, we're safe. We're going to be ok.
Right from the beginning many red flags appear.
First, Jane says that AJ was never in any danger. I beg to differ. The moment she left AJ alone in the car in the middle of a snowstorm in order to enact her scheme against Kenny she put AJ in danger. Many things could have gone wrong if her scheme had not worked. For example, Walkers have been known to have the mental capacity to open unlocked doors in both the comic series and the TV series, therefore, putting AJ in danger of being attacked by a nearby walker. Also, one should realize that if the baby had not cried and Jane died without revealing the truth about AJ being alive, then Kenny and Clem would have left without knowing that AJ was in a nearby car, and thus, AJ would really be in danger (Walkers, starvation, freeze to death, etc).
The next point Jane makes is that she was just "going to talk" to Clem into going with her. Yet, Jane never did such a thing. She failed once in the truck, but she never tried to talk to Clem in the building, Rather, she told her to "stay out of it".
Third, Jane had proved her point about Kenny being dangerous by showing Clem Kenny's violent reaction. But Jane didn't stop to tell Clem, "See, I told you he was crazy. Leave him Clem". Jane never gave Clem the choice to "leave him". Rather, she wanted Kenny dead as soon as he attacked her. She became just as irrationally violent as Kenny was.
Fourth, she claims that she "didn't think that Kenny would go that far". But that's a blatant lie. She knew very well that Kenny would go that far. In fact, she wanted it to go that far. Remember when Kenny had Jane pinned down with the knife in his hand,before he was about to kill her Kenny said "I'll kill you", to which Jane responded, "I knew you would". By Jane’s own words, she knew Kenny would try to kill her and wanted it to happen, hoping of course that she would kill him first.
Let's move to the next dialogue.
Clementine: Upset, you’re f---ing crazy. How could you do this?
Jane: I had to do it, Clem. You saw how he reacted. I had to show you what he was capable of.
Clementine: So you put AJ in danger, and got my friend killed...just to prove a point.
Jane: It was a stupid plan. I should have never lied to you. But I thought it was the only way you would see.
Clem easily saw through Jane's scheme. Yet, Jane defends herself by saying that she "had to do it". But that's not true. She didn't have to do it at all. In fact, earlier on in the truck she was going to apologize and reconcile with Kenny. She said "Kenny, I’m...", but she was immediately interrupted by Kenny's practical concern for diesel as the truck was close to being empty. As soon as Kenny left, she was consumed by her hate for him and irrationally convinced herself there and then that she had to get rid of Kenny, that she "had to do it". Now some might say that Kenny would not accept her apology anyways or was too unstable to be reconciled with. Yet, that also is not true, as we have seen Kenny apologize and reconcile with Clem, as well as feeling sorry for what happened to AJ’s father, Alvin, and thinking highly of him. He even felt remorse over beating up Arvo. Point is: Kenny is able to be reconciled with. Jane however, saw the worst in Kenny, and therefore, didn’t want to reconcile with him.
Second, Jane recognizes that her plan was foolish and that she shouldn't have lied to Clem. Here, she admits that this was her responsibility, and she feels sorry that Clem was forced to kill Kenny because of her deception.
Third, Jane also admits that she was wrong in thinking that this was the only way for Clem to realize that Kenny was too violent to be around.
Let's move to the next dialogue.
Clem: I don’t understand.
Jane: Kenny, was dangerous, and I needed you to see that. One way or another.
In this dialogue, as opposed to the first, Jane shows no remorse over what she did, but is instead emphatic in her belief that Kenny was too dangerous and needed to be put down. But of course, we know from the first dialogue that this is not true. If Kenny was dangerous, then Jane too is dangerous to be around as she herself has been shown to be anti-social, trusts no one, abandons the group (who returns only for her affection of Clem), and is manipulative in order to achieve what she wants to the detriment of others. But I must point out that she has been shown to be redeemable of these flaws. The reason why I bring up these flaws is that Kenny would never scheme to get rid of Jane because of her flaws. Therefore, Jane also should never have schemed against Kenny because of his flaws. Let's move to the next dialogue.
Clementine: Oh my God! Kenny!
Jane: You have to forgive me, please. We can just leave all this behind us. Please, I did it for you Clem. For us. We're free now.
Clementine: I'm not going anywhere with you.
Jane: Clem, please. I did this for you....I can’t do this alone. Ok?! Is that what you want to here?
In this dialogue, Jane says she did this for Clem, but as I have already pointed out a few times already, she did this for herself. She did this for her selfish desire to have Clem.
Jane also claims that she and Clem are "free now". While Kenny had a "It’s my way or the highway" attitude, never once did he force others to follow him and he also was open to follow other people's direction if that is what the group wanted (few examples: whether to let Rebecca rest awhile or leave in the morning, or when the group decided to go to Arvo's place). Jane on the other hand, has been trying to make Clem see the world from a hopeless, untrusting, everyone for themselves, lone wolf perspective. Jane’s false charge that Clem was not "free" with Kenny is groundless.
Finally, Jane reveals her selfish nature when she says, "I can't do this alone. Ok?! Is that what you want to here?". Apparently, she never really meant it that she "can't do this alone" because she asked Clem if that's what she wanted to hear. Jane would say anything to get Clem on her side. But at this point it's too late, Clem leaves Jane, knowing that she can't be trusted.
But now let's look at what Clem says if you forgive Jane.
Clementine: You were right about Kenny...all along...you knew what he was going to do.
Clem has apparently contradicted Jane when she says, "you knew what he was going to do". Jane earlier had said that she "didn't think Kenny would go that far". A blatant lie, of course, as I have already shown above. But in Clem's dialogue, she believed that Jane "knew what he was going to do", contradicting Jane's lie.
Though I can't help but feel that this dialogue seems out of place. I imagine that those players who forgave Jane didn't want Clem to also agree with Jane’s logic by saying this. This should have been a separate choice.
One last thing, I know some will charge me as a Kenny fanboy, but I'm not (though I guess my avatar isn't helping me, LOL. I don't know how to import my own pic
Uh, yeah no. You are clearly a Kenny fan, my friend. If you really wanted this to have no bias you wouldn't have sided with one or the other at all in this post, but you couldn't even wait to defend Kenny before you got to the end of your post. I noticed also how you took into account all the dialogue that Kenny said after the fight, but none of the dialogue that Jane said. This isn't an analysis; it's a defense of Kenny's actions in the fight. When considering Kenny's dialogue when you're at the car, you're mostly looking at Kenny's explanation of what Jane did, not an unbiased explanation of what Jane did.
Update: Thank you for including Jane's dialogue. However you're still not being unbiased as you're not looking at it from Jane's perspective. You interpret her lines always assuming the worst from her, and that's not fair. See my longer post below.
If you actually read my analysis, i never once sided with Kenny because he was a likable character nor that I disliked Jane's character. In fact, I liked them both and saw them both as redeemable. I really wished I could have saved them both. I judged my decision solely on Kenny's and Jane's actions and motivations and went on to Kenny's justification in order to reinforce what i had already suspected about the fight. And yes, I did see Jane's justification and it wasn't substantive enough to include it because she didn't say anything new that i hadn't already covered in my analysis.
However, in order to be more fair, I'll include Jane's dialogue and my thoughts about it later on tonight. For now I got to sleep. Thanks for your comment
I'm sorry if Jane's plan was not executed and thought out better, but I do think she's justified with her concern over Kenny and how he'll be around Clem. That alone I understand.
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You are a very angry little person. I recommend you calm down shortly or you will soon be asked to leave this site.
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Dude All Kenny ever does is making problems, he caused the group to break up which led to Arvo shooting Clem which could've been FATAL. Luke was super glue that keeps the group together and Kenny is just the hot water that washes all the glue away. Jane is a guardian angel that watches out for the group and for Clem. You Kenny fans are so blinded by the fact that Kenny is a dumb hypocrite blinded man who thinks he knows everything wtf kenny Im glad I shot you.
Arvo shot Clem because he hated her for shooting his sister (which he never saw turning, so he thought that Clem shot her while she was still alive.)
Maybe they would've gotten a chance to tell him his sisters dead if Kenny would stop beating him up. Also Kenny is the reason why Mike and Bonnie ran away so if they didn't run away, Arvo wouldnt have a gun and he wouldnt have shot Clem.
The whole fight itself was unrealistic.
Kenny has got to be around 165lbs-200lbs.
And he's shown himself to be a strong guy.
He helped lift a door off of Lee, who was pinned underneath; back at the drugstore, a door that had at least 2 walkers on top of it, back in Season 1/Episode 3.
He busted open that armoury door; that was locked up tight, back at Crawford.
And he pinned Mike against a wall back at Carver's.
Mike couldn't even move!
Jane was maybe only 125lbs at best.
And though she may have been strong in her own right, just by size alone, she was no match for Kenny.
What really made me hate Jane, was how she berated and antagonized Kenny in the truck.
Questioning him as a husband and father; saying that he terrorized his late family.
Criticizing him for being unable to protect Sarita, and what not.
And saying even Clementine thought Kenny was a monster.
That was so out of line!
She didn't know what she was talking about.
She didn't get to see the kind of husband/father he was.
Nor how he would do anything to protect his family and friends.
All she got see was a poor man who was in a deep state of grief after losing almost everyone he cared for, and who was probably suffering from post-traumatic-stress-disorder as a result.
I wish we could just skip all this and just get to season 3 to answer everyones questions so we can move on from all this debate
^^ this is perfect^^
She popped both of his eyes, he should be blind now. Plus she slashed his belly, his intestine and stomach should fall out of his belly. I'm pretty sure Jane should've won.
Kenny started with his bullshit " Kenny: Your just some fucking loner who cares about no one but herself, nobody cares about you. " " Jane: Stop the car im leaving " " Kenny: Oooh so your running from your problems again. "
Kenny didn't get to see Jane before they met her. She dragged her sister across 4 states. She cared about her sister more than anyone. All he got to see was her being alone and trying to not to get attached to anyone because she doesn't want to lose another loved person.
Thanks.
When Jane knocked Kenny to the ground, when he pinned her against the wall, I thought to myself: "Oh please!
Give me a break, she couldn't do that, not with her size. She'd have to be Mike's size at least to be able to do that."
And the fact that Kenny got his belly slashed open, and didn't need to be medical attention afterward, like he did with his eye, that was also like: "Oh c'mon."
You do realise Jane said that after Kenny insulted her and called her 'Nothin and that she doesn't care for anyone and only for herself.
She was provoked.
I just updated my analysis. It now contains Jane's dialogue after the fight and my thoughts on them.
Ok. I've been meaning to respond for a while; will get around to it a little later after reading your updates. And for the record I read everything in a thread and OP before commenting (including your post.)
The argument started when Kenny said he couldn't see the damned road (cuz her foot was on the dash) and Jane said I bet there's alot you can't/don't see. That's when the you're nothing and you care about no one but yourself stuff started. And then like a minute later she tells Kenny to pull over so she can get out...thus proving what she cared for.
That was one big thing that always stood out for me, that always confused me about Jane's actions at the end. It was her possessiveness with Clementine that she felt she had to manipulate her to that level, even if it meant killing someone, never mind killing a friend. I know Jane's side of the argument was that Jane didn't think it would get that bad, and that she underestimated Kenny...but I also noticed that if Clem picks up the gun, Jane does indeed ask for help. (Can't fault her for this since a knife in the chest is quite lethal, but it does blow the "Jane didn't try to trick Clem into killing Kenny theory" out of the water, since she asked her to "just stay out of it")
Honestly after reading this, I feel kinda bad for Jane now when I told her off. She wanted something better then what she had with her sister Jaime and it makes total sense that she was willing to do everything possible to achieve this. In contrast to Kenny who despite his brutal and unstable behavior would rather give Clem and AJ up if it meant they were safe, even from himself.
I guess Luke was right in the end....nothing more important then "family" even in the ZA.
She got what she deserved isn't exactly morally objective. Its ok to kill as long as you are killing the person that induced you to it?
There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so. -- William Shakespeare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arJ62OIrcI8
"they see me trollin' they hatin'
A very well-made analysis, good read.
She didn't trick Clementine. She sadly underestimated Kenny.
YAYYY LUKE!!
You're joking right?
Who pulled Clem out of the ice?
Who saved Kenny during the firefight?
She even said at the start of the episode Clem is 90% of the reason she came back.
So it's a bit silly to say she doesn't care about Clementine.
And like I said in the previous comment, KENNY made it personal first.
IN REAL GAME I SIDED WITH KEN BUT THIS ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFICULT FOR ME
My Clem didn't fall through the ice! It doesn't have to happen in everyone's story. I didn't say she never cared but giving up and running away was her MO up until then. and like I said she proves that by saying she wants to get out. I never said who was right just saying how the fight started.
Why does everyone assume someone is saying they are wrong. Just helping you with how the fight started since you said Kenny was the one being a dick first...Not true no matter how much you want it to be. Kenny was crazy, Jane acted like she was also crazy/losing it like Clems says. By the end Clem has lost a bit of her sanity after having watched one of them die so horribly.