Yes - if Jane had reacted like every other person that Kenny has bullied, things would've turned out differently.
But Jane doesn't. She pulls out her knife, gets the fight to die down a bit.
Then she puts the knife away and tells Kenny that she isn't going to back down - if he comes at her, she won't back down, she will fight him.
lol you wouldn't feel threatened if someone pulls a knife on you if you attacked first? I don't care if you have a gun instead of your fists… more, you're going to feel threatened when someone has a weapon, period. Don't be unrealistic. Jane didn't do anything to stop the fight, she egged it on. She wanted it. If Jane instead covered herself or ran and said "stop stop stop, please don't hurt me!" Then yes, it'd be more reasonable to react that hey maybe I'm getting too violent here and freaking people out. But that didn't happen and instead she added fuel to the flames, since this was everything she was working for.
Yeah Jane saved them at that point but she still followed them without the group knowing about it. If she didn't reveal herself then, who's to say Jane wouldn't have tried to steal the car or even Clem when no one was looking?
Barring the fact that if it had been Lee instead of Kenny things never would have progressed to this state (on account of Lee not being a stubborn, violent bully), then no I don't think Lee would've acted similarly at all.
Lee's first thought would be to see if perhaps the baby could still be saved. If you dropped him on accident, then he's still out there. We can still save him.
Lee did what was necessary, but he never relished the violence, he didn't become more and more uncontrollably violent. He could dish out the hurt, but only when it was necessary. The worst thing Lee would've done to Jane was to abandon her, like he abandoned Lilly.
I choose to forgive her as well. I think that's the moment when Jane comes full circle, and has returned to a more normal state, one where she can bond with people and slowly trust them, instead of being stuck in her loner mentality because of her sister.
Because you never did understand her. I didn't once believed she killed AJ or even lost him in an accident. I knew something was up and she … morewas trying to pull something, and that AJ's alive somewhere.
Jane is many things, but seeing her interactions with Clem and even the group I knew killing AJ is not what she can do. I was rather upset at her at the end but chose to forgave her anyway because I believe she truly did that for Clem's benefit, even if the method wasn't the best and even backfired, and also because she returned to the group for Clem.
Yes because when someone threatens me with a knife and says pretty much "I can take you bring it on" that must mean I should calm down and not attack in defense before she has a chance to throw that knife or whatever else, this lady is up to, whom I believe just killed a kid on purpose or without trying hard enough to save, who prior to this was pissing me off every second she could even though I've clearly been on edge because I'm seriously upset about being helpless to save all the people either dying around me or betraying me. I'd think blind rage and at least a fist fight seems pretty normal behavior in that case but hey maybe that's just me.
Yes - if Jane had reacted like every other person that Kenny has bullied, things would've turned out differently.
But Jane doesn't. She p… moreulls out her knife, gets the fight to die down a bit.
Then she puts the knife away and tells Kenny that she isn't going to back down - if he comes at her, she won't back down, she will fight him.
At which point Kenny hurls himself at her.
What people seem to fail to realise, is that Jane has an arc to her character.
We meet her in the compound, and she's a loner - she doesn't want to bond, because she's been scarred and believes it'll make her weak.
Slowly she is forced to interact with the group, and she begins to warm up to others again. It helps that Clem reminds her of her sister.
However - all this bonding and sharing (and especially the hanky panky with Luke) scares the shit out of her. In her mind it'll only lead to heartbreak and sorrow down the line, which is why she leaves at the platform.
Her character has, however, already progressed to far. She has bonded with people in the group - whether she wants to or not - so she finds herself coming back to them (perhaps prompted by the realisation that the group was in danger).
At this point it's unfair and downright mean spirited to continue to claim that Jane always just looks out for number one. Her actions clearly shift during the season and she is slowly redeemed.
To me Jane isn't just the most likeable character in season 2, she's also the most interesting - as she's pretty much the only one with a character arc and the only one who has anywhere positive to progress towards at the end (unless you allowed Kenny to murder her).
What I got from that line is that Jane wanted to leave with Clementine AND AJ at that moment, because if they waited for Kenny he wouldn't let AJ go with Clementine and Jane.
She feels bad about killing the Russian because he hasn't done her any harm. It's a new feeling for her, she's basically killed someone without knowing precisely why.
Troy - it's quite clear he has done some bad shit, including to Jane. Choosing the dick to shoot, probably gives a hint as to what Troy might have done...
I've never killed someone who hasn't wrong me in some way. Yes, she did say that. I'm aware. That's not to say she was upset about saving th… moree group though. That obviously meant she didn't enjoy harming people unless she was provoked. I take it as a good thing. It's good to feel remorse for hurting people, even if that's hard in the ZA.
Besides, never killed a real person? Troy. That's a technicality though, and that is a huge difference, even if it doesn't seem like it. I'll use batman as an example (stay with me here, it's relevant xD) Batman doesn't kill people, but in an episode when a train is about to crash the bad guy looks his way, smirks and says "You can't kill me." Batmans reply is simply "No, but I don't have to save you either." That's all Jane did. She didn't save Troy, and that's easier on the conscience than truly being the way to drain someone's life. Truly killing someone is very hard, walking away from someone can make yo… [view original content]
As for the conversation before in the car, we don't get the WHOLE conversation. Clem was knocked out. That's just what we hear first and have no idea who started talking about what first and how that conversation got started or how long it was going.
okay here's what happens after the initial stuff, Clem pulls Kenny off Jane. Then while he's covering himself and not being all that aggressive imo (he could try using his feet or roll to get out of this pretty easily. Kenny seems like the guy experienced in brawls enough) Clem pulls Jane off. It looks like he's about to grab her or punch her not sure which and then Jane stabs him. She STABS him. It's not going to be a brawl or fist fight anymore. This is about kill or be killed. It's done. If she punched him in the gut it's different, rolled, ran, ANYTHING but STAB him, then you'd could have more justification saying it's self defense but it's hardcore aggressive attempt at murder. When you stab someone you intend to kill. Jane show intentions of killing FIRST. If she didn't want this then she, like she said should have taken him without the weapon but she doesn't.
As for what she says after the fight did you maybe think that she was just flat out lying to Clem? And if we don't base things off of evidence what DO we base them on?
She stated that she didn't want to kill Kenny, she talked about how her plan was only to show what Kenny was capable of so that Clementine k… morenew that she wouldn't be safe with Kenny. She stabs him out of self-defence, he was charging at her, also, Kenny uses the same knife to stab her in the leg and try to kill her with it. You can't actually prove that she wanted the fight, just because there is evidence doesn't mean that she actually intended to do so, do you forget that Kenny provokes Jane first? He talks about how Jane is a bad influence, how Jane is a bad person and insults her behind her back, he talks about how she was nothing, how she cares for no one and that no one cared for her, if anything, Kenny is the one that caused the fight with Jane.
Yes because when someone threatens me with a knife and says pretty much "I can take you bring it on" that must mean I should calm down and not attack in defense before she has a chance to throw that knife or whatever else, this lady is up to,
She didn't say "I can take you bring it on", she said "I won't back down" - a huge difference!
And she said it right after she put the knife away!
It's not an invitation to fight, it's a message of: "If you choose to fight me right now, then know that I will not back down from you, and it will be to the end" - that was the choice she gave to Kenny, and when Kenny subsequently attacked, discussion time was over.
Yes because when someone threatens me with a knife and says pretty much "I can take you bring it on" that must mean I should calm down and n… moreot attack in defense before she has a chance to throw that knife or whatever else, this lady is up to, whom I believe just killed a kid on purpose or without trying hard enough to save, who prior to this was pissing me off every second she could even though I've clearly been on edge because I'm seriously upset about being helpless to save all the people either dying around me or betraying me. I'd think blind rage and at least a fist fight seems pretty normal behavior in that case but hey maybe that's just me.
Kenny attacked first and he could've killed Jane if she wasn't good at fighting, she slashed Kenny with a knife for self defence, don't think Kenny wouldn't have done the same if he had the knife, in which he stabbed Jane with, I would call it murder, when two people are both trying to kill each other. Kenny actually shows intentions of killing first by choking Jane and attacking first, not to mention he is the one who can ultimately end Jane's life with a knife, in which he didn't actually have to. Do you really think Jane wouldn't have taken the advantage? Kenny would've too.
Obviously Kenny was trying to convince Clementine to forgive him, did you ever think that maybe she ISN'T lying to Clementine? Evidence is not always true, we can base everything on the evidence that someone attempted to kill someone and end up finding out that someone completely different caused it. You can't base things on evidence we don't truly have, so what if Jane reacted? Kenny reacted first. You can tell by Jane's dialogue that her plan to show Clementine what Kenny was capable of didn't work out at that point.
As for the conversation before in the car, we don't get the WHOLE conversation. Clem was knocked out. That's just what we hear first and hav… moree no idea who started talking about what first and how that conversation got started or how long it was going.
okay here's what happens after the initial stuff, Clem pulls Kenny off Jane. Then while he's covering himself and not being all that aggressive imo (he could try using his feet or roll to get out of this pretty easily. Kenny seems like the guy experienced in brawls enough) Clem pulls Jane off. It looks like he's about to grab her or punch her not sure which and then Jane stabs him. She STABS him. It's not going to be a brawl or fist fight anymore. This is about kill or be killed. It's done. If she punched him in the gut it's different, rolled, ran, ANYTHING but STAB him, then you'd could have more justification saying it's self defense but it's hardcore aggressive attempt at murder. When you … [view original content]
Alright I looked at a youtube video to check this.
Jane says with knife out "I won't back down from you Kenny. I'm warning you" Clem has a chance to say something and I think Kenny's reply is determinate to hers not sure exactly. In the video I watched it was "let her talk" and "I'm done talking". Then Jane says "Clem stay back." And when they show Kenny's face it appears as though he's threatened and even more pissed off by this. Then she says "Don't you come near me you son of a bitch." Kenny charges.
Why he charges could be he's trying to take the knife away from her. However what I find more important is this: WHILE they are struggling she's trying to take the knife out again. There's no going around the fact Jane intends to stab Kenny right from the start whether she is tricking either Clem that she's doing it self defense or trying to trick Kenny into the idea she's not going to use it on him.
Even if she would have backed down if Kenny didn't charge her at the start, either way if he was going to fight her she was very much intending to kill him, which imo is too over the top and aggressive. It's one thing to brawl and fight, it's another to murder. It's clear Jane wants to KILL Kenny, regardless of what she says after. Her actions are different than her words. People lie all the time. How can you trust her so readily when you don't even know her all that well even if you don't give a flip for Kenny?
Yes because when someone threatens me with a knife and says pretty much "I can take you bring it on" that must mean I should calm down and n… moreot attack in defense before she has a chance to throw that knife or whatever else, this lady is up to,
She didn't say "I can take you bring it on", she said "I won't back down" - a huge difference!
And she said it right after she put the knife away!
It's not an invitation to fight, it's a message of: "If you choose to fight me right now, then know that I will not back down from you, and it will be to the end" - that was the choice she gave to Kenny, and when Kenny subsequently attacked, discussion time was over.
No she put it away to make herself not so obvious. If she was too obvious that she wanted to kill him, Clem wouldn't forgive her or side wit… moreh her or at least not so easily. She even later stabs him, so just because she puts it away doesn't mean she isn't going to use it again. That's BS. If she threw it on the ground so neither could get it, that'd be different. If she didn't want to have any fight at all, like I said if Clem takes him off her, Jane should have either backed off more or ran, not try to beat Kenny when he's down. If she was all "stop stop please don't hurt me" or something like that, then yeah she would be trying to stop it more not taunting him instead, thus provoking the fight. There's no getting around it, Jane wanted that fight 100%.
I dunno about you but if someone pulls a knife on me, there's no way in hell I'm going to trust them and am going to feel threatened no matt… moreer what. She also followed the group without them knowing so killing her is going to be the only way they'd be safe, since she could follow them and sneak up on them later. And because after she said she could take him even without the knife as she puts it away, only means she took the knife out to provoke a violent reaction. Her actions are clearly manipulative. She wanted to fight; she wanted to kill him and find a way to do it to justify it to Clem and make it look like self defense when it wasn't.
lol you wouldn't feel threatened if someone pulls a knife on you if you attacked first? I don't care if you have a gun instead of your fists… more, you're going to feel threatened when someone has a weapon, period. Don't be unrealistic. Jane didn't do anything to stop the fight, she egged it on. She wanted it. If Jane instead covered herself or ran and said "stop stop stop, please don't hurt me!" Then yes, it'd be more reasonable to react that hey maybe I'm getting too violent here and freaking people out. But that didn't happen and instead she added fuel to the flames, since this was everything she was working for.
Yeah Jane saved them at that point but she still followed them without the group knowing about it. If she didn't reveal herself then, who's to say Jane wouldn't have tried to steal the car or even Clem when no one was looking?
Yes because when someone threatens me with a knife and says pretty much "I can take you bring it on" that must mean I should calm down and n… moreot attack in defense before she has a chance to throw that knife or whatever else, this lady is up to,
She didn't say "I can take you bring it on", she said "I won't back down" - a huge difference!
And she said it right after she put the knife away!
It's not an invitation to fight, it's a message of: "If you choose to fight me right now, then know that I will not back down from you, and it will be to the end" - that was the choice she gave to Kenny, and when Kenny subsequently attacked, discussion time was over.
Oh so now if someone has a knife which they stab you with you won't try to take it away and turn it on them? He doesn't choke her, he pins her with his arm. It appears they're struggling over the knife at that point. I don't know Kenny's intentions 100%, but if I were in that situation I know for damn sure I'd try to take that knife away from her, whether I was going to fight her or not. And yes he did have to kill her. As soon as she slashed him with the knife it was over. One of them had to die in order for the other to be safe. C'mon you'd think they'd just let the other walk away? People kill each other in the zombie apocalypse just for simply knowing someone's base location, this is worse. You can't expect to stab someone and not have them try to kill you in ANY situation. If she really expected him to back off and not fight her, when she put the knife away like you said, then she didn't think he was actually going to kill her and thus she shouldn't be so utterly threatened for her life that she'd STAB him and instead use her fists or I don't know not be aggressive and RUN.
You could think of it this way. They were both too aggressive, whether you chose to interfere with their fight at the end when you knew there was nothing you could do to stop them from killing one another, is on your/Clem's conscious. Let's say that was true. Let them hash it out with each other then. Kenny wins that way and there is also nothing wrong in what you do since they both wanted it and they're right about Clem needing to stay out of it. But you in the end decide it's fair for you to judge and kill someone in the heat of the moment. It's a mistake.
We can argue about the rest all day long, I don't think we're going to convince the other so I suppose that's that.
Kenny attacked first and he could've killed Jane if she wasn't good at fighting, she slashed Kenny with a knife for self defence, don't thin… morek Kenny wouldn't have done the same if he had the knife, in which he stabbed Jane with, I would call it murder, when two people are both trying to kill each other. Kenny actually shows intentions of killing first by choking Jane and attacking first, not to mention he is the one who can ultimately end Jane's life with a knife, in which he didn't actually have to. Do you really think Jane wouldn't have taken the advantage? Kenny would've too.
Obviously Kenny was trying to convince Clementine to forgive him, did you ever think that maybe she ISN'T lying to Clementine? Evidence is not always true, we can base everything on the evidence that someone attempted to kill someone and end up finding out that someone completely different caused it. You can't base things on evidence we don't truly have, so what if … [view original content]
My god... I wish you could see what you sound like to me.
How dare she do anything to defend herself. The only rational thing Jane could've done here to satisfy you people is to slit her own throat with her knife. Then MAYBE you'd accept her actions.
Alright I looked at a youtube video to check this.
Jane says with knife out "I won't back down from you Kenny. I'm warning you" Clem has a … morechance to say something and I think Kenny's reply is determinate to hers not sure exactly. In the video I watched it was "let her talk" and "I'm done talking". Then Jane says "Clem stay back." And when they show Kenny's face it appears as though he's threatened and even more pissed off by this. Then she says "Don't you come near me you son of a bitch." Kenny charges.
Why he charges could be he's trying to take the knife away from her. However what I find more important is this: WHILE they are struggling she's trying to take the knife out again. There's no going around the fact Jane intends to stab Kenny right from the start whether she is tricking either Clem that she's doing it self defense or trying to trick Kenny into the idea she's not going to use it on him.
Even if she would have backed down i… [view original content]
I 100% believe that nothing short of her death would've satisfied Kenny. In fact its pretty obvious with his body language and his actions from the very start of the fight. If she had made any attempt at saying the baby was alive I doubt Kenny would even believe her if he even bothered to hear. What I'm getting from the Kenny apologists is that Jane should have just taken the attack like a good little girl because any attempt at defending herself is clearly threatening poor defenseless Kenny.
I've said it before and I'll say it again...Do you really think that if she said that the baby was fine Kenny would have believed her? When … morethey got to the house he randomly started beating on Arvo because he assumed there weren't any supplies in the house, even though there were; then, when Jane says that the baby died and says it's an accident, he starts beating on her because he assumes she killed AJ.
I think we've sort of agreed on the events that happened, and we just happen to view them differently. I won't regurgitate some of my earlier arguments. It has at least been informative
I will touch upon this bit:
How can you trust her so readily when you don't even know her all that well even if you don't give a flip for Kenny?
I would say I trust Jane, because I've seen her develop from loner into slowly bonding girl. She sees the group and Clem as a chance for redemption and her coming back to save the group was the pivotal point for her character.
After that she saves Clem from drowning, she starts to care for the baby, and she hasn't lied to me at any point. Not even at the end - she told me to trust her, and I did (and to my mind was proven right in doing so).
Alright I looked at a youtube video to check this.
Jane says with knife out "I won't back down from you Kenny. I'm warning you" Clem has a … morechance to say something and I think Kenny's reply is determinate to hers not sure exactly. In the video I watched it was "let her talk" and "I'm done talking". Then Jane says "Clem stay back." And when they show Kenny's face it appears as though he's threatened and even more pissed off by this. Then she says "Don't you come near me you son of a bitch." Kenny charges.
Why he charges could be he's trying to take the knife away from her. However what I find more important is this: WHILE they are struggling she's trying to take the knife out again. There's no going around the fact Jane intends to stab Kenny right from the start whether she is tricking either Clem that she's doing it self defense or trying to trick Kenny into the idea she's not going to use it on him.
Even if she would have backed down i… [view original content]
It was SOOOOOOOOOOOOO not that simple. You Kenny fans are acting like this is a simple black and white matter. I shot Kenny because I felt whatever Jane did didn't mean she deserved to die for it. In my playthrough I picked every option that BEGGED Kenny to hear her out. He says "i'm done talking" and he even shoves Clem aside showing he refused to even try to hear Jane out. I hated doing it because Kenny was my friend. But he forced my hand. I couldn't sit there and let him kill someone over a mistake! I just couldn't.
So I didn't do it to get rid of Kenny. And I didn't do it because I liked Jane more. I did it because Kenny was too far gone. So I asked him "why did you make me do this?" and he says "I let you down. Thank you for stopping me" He found the peace he desperately needed
I've said it before and I'll say it again...Do you really think that if she said that the baby was fine Kenny would have believed her?
… more
At that point Jane leads him to the car and says "Here's the baby." He'd still have been pissed that she even TRIED to do what she did. What she did was f*cking ridiculous by all standards. Anyone who sided with Jane in my opinion only did so cuz they were tired of listening to Kenny bitch.
Really convoluted set up she had there. Manipulate a bigger person into fighting her just so she can kill him and make it look like she was the good guy? Either she had a death wish all of a sudden or she underestimated just how violent Kenny really was.
The irony here is that she proves herself right... More than even she realized and the Kenny apologists go "its all her fault" showing that they have blinders on when it comes to Kenny. Kenny doesn't deserve to die for lashing out at everyone and turning increasingly violent yet Jane deserves to die for "manipulating" him into becoming violent.
Gosh could you imagine if Kenny was rational in that moment? She'd have no legs to stand on if he came back and asked her what happened and didn't lay a finger on her.
I mean gosh the Kenny lovers act like thats what he did anyway!
I really doubt that Jane was planning for Kenny to die. If that had been her intention from the start, surely it would've been much easier a… morend safer to just slit his throat when Clem wasn't looking, and then throw the corpse to the walkers to hide the evidence?
Mad guy who I seriously mentally hurt won't attack me if I put my weapon down!!
/sarcasm
I didn't hate Jane, but the amount of people who likes manipulative people is laughable.
Yeah, Clem telling her to run away and she pushed her away instead. No, she didn't want a fight.
/sarcasm
I didn't hate Jane either until this episode...
Nope. She's not Kenny. She doesn't get to be absolved of responsibility. If Kenny had done what she'd done you'd be calling him a saint for showing her true colors.
Here's what I've noticed this passed week during this whole debate.
Those who sided with Jane "I hated doing it but I couldn't sit back and watch him kill her. She made a mistake but that doesn't mean she deserved to die. So stopped Kenny from becoming a murderer and his last dying breath to me was thank you for stopping him.... I hated doing it but he left me no choice"
Those who sided with Kenny "Fuck that bitch Jane all she wanted was an excuse to kill Kenny and win Clem's favor (ignoring that he's bigger than her and she could've just slit his throat in his sleep) my only regret is that I couldn't have killed her myself for what she did"
I have yet to see a Pro Jane person say what she did was right. But Boyo I have lost count of the "Kenny did no wrong" mentality.
Edit: OOPS my bad. I see I'm responding to one of those pro Kenny peeps.
You can say the same the same about Kenny haters thinking it's fine to put a baby and themselves in danger just to prove a point and trying to create a villain out of someone.
"Just goes on trying to brainwash Clem into believing he's some evil person."
We all know that Kenny was evil person.
He wanted to kill Ben, didnt help Shawn, wanted to leave girl to experience horrible death instead of putting her out of misery, wanted to leave Lilly, Omid and Arvo behind, tries to kill Clems friend (Jane), proposes that they steal the supplies, which eventually cause the death of Lee, the stranger and his family and Ben. Plus he causes the death of Walter, is willing to let Alvin die, beats arvo hard in 2 different scenes for nothing. Thats some of the shit Kenny has pulled in last 2 seasons, and people still treat him as saint.
Comments
Yes - if Jane had reacted like every other person that Kenny has bullied, things would've turned out differently.
But Jane doesn't. She pulls out her knife, gets the fight to die down a bit.
Then she puts the knife away and tells Kenny that she isn't going to back down - if he comes at her, she won't back down, she will fight him.
At which point Kenny hurls himself at her.
So the Jane haters condone what Kenny did?
Barring the fact that if it had been Lee instead of Kenny things never would have progressed to this state (on account of Lee not being a stubborn, violent bully), then no I don't think Lee would've acted similarly at all.
Lee's first thought would be to see if perhaps the baby could still be saved. If you dropped him on accident, then he's still out there. We can still save him.
Lee did what was necessary, but he never relished the violence, he didn't become more and more uncontrollably violent. He could dish out the hurt, but only when it was necessary. The worst thing Lee would've done to Jane was to abandon her, like he abandoned Lilly.
This is probably just my version of Lee of course
I choose to forgive her as well. I think that's the moment when Jane comes full circle, and has returned to a more normal state, one where she can bond with people and slowly trust them, instead of being stuck in her loner mentality because of her sister.
Yes because when someone threatens me with a knife and says pretty much "I can take you bring it on" that must mean I should calm down and not attack in defense before she has a chance to throw that knife or whatever else, this lady is up to, whom I believe just killed a kid on purpose or without trying hard enough to save, who prior to this was pissing me off every second she could even though I've clearly been on edge because I'm seriously upset about being helpless to save all the people either dying around me or betraying me. I'd think blind rage and at least a fist fight seems pretty normal behavior in that case but hey maybe that's just me.
This is spot on!
What people seem to fail to realise, is that Jane has an arc to her character.
We meet her in the compound, and she's a loner - she doesn't want to bond, because she's been scarred and believes it'll make her weak.
Slowly she is forced to interact with the group, and she begins to warm up to others again. It helps that Clem reminds her of her sister.
However - all this bonding and sharing (and especially the hanky panky with Luke) scares the shit out of her. In her mind it'll only lead to heartbreak and sorrow down the line, which is why she leaves at the platform.
Her character has, however, already progressed to far. She has bonded with people in the group - whether she wants to or not - so she finds herself coming back to them (perhaps prompted by the realisation that the group was in danger).
At this point it's unfair and downright mean spirited to continue to claim that Jane always just looks out for number one. Her actions clearly shift during the season and she is slowly redeemed.
To me Jane isn't just the most likeable character in season 2, she's also the most interesting - as she's pretty much the only one with a character arc and the only one who has anywhere positive to progress towards at the end (unless you allowed Kenny to murder her).
What she means is that Kenny will never let them leave civilly - as in "Kenny, we are leaving. Let's split the supplies".
He'll demand to keep the baby on his wild goose chase up north, even though they'll be heading back towards baby formula and safety.
Precisely!
There's no conflict present here.
She feels bad about killing the Russian because he hasn't done her any harm. It's a new feeling for her, she's basically killed someone without knowing precisely why.
Troy - it's quite clear he has done some bad shit, including to Jane. Choosing the dick to shoot, probably gives a hint as to what Troy might have done...
Yeah, I don't know about using this quote in connection with Kenny since it was about Clem arguing against him to keep from leaving Ben behind.
As for the conversation before in the car, we don't get the WHOLE conversation. Clem was knocked out. That's just what we hear first and have no idea who started talking about what first and how that conversation got started or how long it was going.
okay here's what happens after the initial stuff, Clem pulls Kenny off Jane. Then while he's covering himself and not being all that aggressive imo (he could try using his feet or roll to get out of this pretty easily. Kenny seems like the guy experienced in brawls enough) Clem pulls Jane off. It looks like he's about to grab her or punch her not sure which and then Jane stabs him. She STABS him. It's not going to be a brawl or fist fight anymore. This is about kill or be killed. It's done. If she punched him in the gut it's different, rolled, ran, ANYTHING but STAB him, then you'd could have more justification saying it's self defense but it's hardcore aggressive attempt at murder. When you stab someone you intend to kill. Jane show intentions of killing FIRST. If she didn't want this then she, like she said should have taken him without the weapon but she doesn't.
As for what she says after the fight did you maybe think that she was just flat out lying to Clem? And if we don't base things off of evidence what DO we base them on?
She didn't say "I can take you bring it on", she said "I won't back down" - a huge difference!
And she said it right after she put the knife away!
It's not an invitation to fight, it's a message of: "If you choose to fight me right now, then know that I will not back down from you, and it will be to the end" - that was the choice she gave to Kenny, and when Kenny subsequently attacked, discussion time was over.
it was her fault to push kenny in that situation,both jane and clem knew him,especially clem after 2 seasons!!!!!
the reality is that for kenny lovers it's hard to shoot and for jane lovers it's hard to let her die.
our clems are different because our thoughts are different
some guys love kenney or jane ,it's their choice and there was no going back!!!!!!
Kenny attacked first and he could've killed Jane if she wasn't good at fighting, she slashed Kenny with a knife for self defence, don't think Kenny wouldn't have done the same if he had the knife, in which he stabbed Jane with, I would call it murder, when two people are both trying to kill each other. Kenny actually shows intentions of killing first by choking Jane and attacking first, not to mention he is the one who can ultimately end Jane's life with a knife, in which he didn't actually have to. Do you really think Jane wouldn't have taken the advantage? Kenny would've too.
Obviously Kenny was trying to convince Clementine to forgive him, did you ever think that maybe she ISN'T lying to Clementine? Evidence is not always true, we can base everything on the evidence that someone attempted to kill someone and end up finding out that someone completely different caused it. You can't base things on evidence we don't truly have, so what if Jane reacted? Kenny reacted first. You can tell by Jane's dialogue that her plan to show Clementine what Kenny was capable of didn't work out at that point.
Alright I looked at a youtube video to check this.
Jane says with knife out "I won't back down from you Kenny. I'm warning you" Clem has a chance to say something and I think Kenny's reply is determinate to hers not sure exactly. In the video I watched it was "let her talk" and "I'm done talking". Then Jane says "Clem stay back." And when they show Kenny's face it appears as though he's threatened and even more pissed off by this. Then she says "Don't you come near me you son of a bitch." Kenny charges.
Why he charges could be he's trying to take the knife away from her. However what I find more important is this: WHILE they are struggling she's trying to take the knife out again. There's no going around the fact Jane intends to stab Kenny right from the start whether she is tricking either Clem that she's doing it self defense or trying to trick Kenny into the idea she's not going to use it on him.
Even if she would have backed down if Kenny didn't charge her at the start, either way if he was going to fight her she was very much intending to kill him, which imo is too over the top and aggressive. It's one thing to brawl and fight, it's another to murder. It's clear Jane wants to KILL Kenny, regardless of what she says after. Her actions are different than her words. People lie all the time. How can you trust her so readily when you don't even know her all that well even if you don't give a flip for Kenny?
Condone? No... Understand yes... Agree? Not at all.
Not a "Kenny hater" either but I'm also not a big fan of murder. So I'm kind of strange like that.
Yes and in the real world we blame murder victims for pushing those who killed them into it.
I wonder how many bodies Kenny is allowed before she's proven right.
Trick question. Its Kenny he's allowed as many bodies as he wants.
LMAO I cant even take this seriously anymore.
Its too bad she's not Kenny.
She wouldn't have to do anything to justify it.
If I attacked first maybe I deserved a knife?
Just a weird thought. But then again I'm not Kenny so......
Like Kenny was hearing a word she was saying anyway.
Kind of like his fans.
Oh so now if someone has a knife which they stab you with you won't try to take it away and turn it on them? He doesn't choke her, he pins her with his arm. It appears they're struggling over the knife at that point. I don't know Kenny's intentions 100%, but if I were in that situation I know for damn sure I'd try to take that knife away from her, whether I was going to fight her or not. And yes he did have to kill her. As soon as she slashed him with the knife it was over. One of them had to die in order for the other to be safe. C'mon you'd think they'd just let the other walk away? People kill each other in the zombie apocalypse just for simply knowing someone's base location, this is worse. You can't expect to stab someone and not have them try to kill you in ANY situation. If she really expected him to back off and not fight her, when she put the knife away like you said, then she didn't think he was actually going to kill her and thus she shouldn't be so utterly threatened for her life that she'd STAB him and instead use her fists or I don't know not be aggressive and RUN.
You could think of it this way. They were both too aggressive, whether you chose to interfere with their fight at the end when you knew there was nothing you could do to stop them from killing one another, is on your/Clem's conscious. Let's say that was true. Let them hash it out with each other then. Kenny wins that way and there is also nothing wrong in what you do since they both wanted it and they're right about Clem needing to stay out of it. But you in the end decide it's fair for you to judge and kill someone in the heat of the moment. It's a mistake.
We can argue about the rest all day long, I don't think we're going to convince the other so I suppose that's that.
My god... I wish you could see what you sound like to me.
How dare she do anything to defend herself. The only rational thing Jane could've done here to satisfy you people is to slit her own throat with her knife. Then MAYBE you'd accept her actions.
Jane would have no reason to. Because Lee would never give her a reason to!
I 100% believe that nothing short of her death would've satisfied Kenny. In fact its pretty obvious with his body language and his actions from the very start of the fight. If she had made any attempt at saying the baby was alive I doubt Kenny would even believe her if he even bothered to hear. What I'm getting from the Kenny apologists is that Jane should have just taken the attack like a good little girl because any attempt at defending herself is clearly threatening poor defenseless Kenny.
I think we've sort of agreed on the events that happened, and we just happen to view them differently. I won't regurgitate some of my earlier arguments. It has at least been informative
I will touch upon this bit:
I would say I trust Jane, because I've seen her develop from loner into slowly bonding girl. She sees the group and Clem as a chance for redemption and her coming back to save the group was the pivotal point for her character.
After that she saves Clem from drowning, she starts to care for the baby, and she hasn't lied to me at any point. Not even at the end - she told me to trust her, and I did (and to my mind was proven right in doing so).
It was SOOOOOOOOOOOOO not that simple. You Kenny fans are acting like this is a simple black and white matter. I shot Kenny because I felt whatever Jane did didn't mean she deserved to die for it. In my playthrough I picked every option that BEGGED Kenny to hear her out. He says "i'm done talking" and he even shoves Clem aside showing he refused to even try to hear Jane out. I hated doing it because Kenny was my friend. But he forced my hand. I couldn't sit there and let him kill someone over a mistake! I just couldn't.
So I didn't do it to get rid of Kenny. And I didn't do it because I liked Jane more. I did it because Kenny was too far gone. So I asked him "why did you make me do this?" and he says "I let you down. Thank you for stopping me" He found the peace he desperately needed
Really convoluted set up she had there. Manipulate a bigger person into fighting her just so she can kill him and make it look like she was the good guy? Either she had a death wish all of a sudden or she underestimated just how violent Kenny really was.
The irony here is that she proves herself right... More than even she realized and the Kenny apologists go "its all her fault" showing that they have blinders on when it comes to Kenny. Kenny doesn't deserve to die for lashing out at everyone and turning increasingly violent yet Jane deserves to die for "manipulating" him into becoming violent.
Gosh could you imagine if Kenny was rational in that moment? She'd have no legs to stand on if he came back and asked her what happened and didn't lay a finger on her.
I mean gosh the Kenny lovers act like thats what he did anyway!
I don't see anyone saying what Jane did was right.
I do see a lot of people saying Kenny was completely within is rights to kill her though.
Interesting. It seems both push Clem away. Because in my game I begged Kenny to stop and he shoves Clem away.
Larry, Ben, Arvo
No those don't count. Kenny's a fluffy puppy who never hurts anyone.
Yes... That makes perfect sense. Piss off a man bigger than her and a good 80 pounds heavier than her so she can kill him.
Why didn't she just slit his throat in his sleep and say walkers go him?
Nope. She's not Kenny. She doesn't get to be absolved of responsibility. If Kenny had done what she'd done you'd be calling him a saint for showing her true colors.
i think you didn't play the game!!!!!!!
it was Apocalypse then you talk about the real world!!!!!?????
Here's what I've noticed this passed week during this whole debate.
Those who sided with Jane "I hated doing it but I couldn't sit back and watch him kill her. She made a mistake but that doesn't mean she deserved to die. So stopped Kenny from becoming a murderer and his last dying breath to me was thank you for stopping him.... I hated doing it but he left me no choice"
Those who sided with Kenny "Fuck that bitch Jane all she wanted was an excuse to kill Kenny and win Clem's favor (ignoring that he's bigger than her and she could've just slit his throat in his sleep) my only regret is that I couldn't have killed her myself for what she did"
I have yet to see a Pro Jane person say what she did was right. But Boyo I have lost count of the "Kenny did no wrong" mentality.
Edit: OOPS my bad. I see I'm responding to one of those pro Kenny peeps.
Pretend I didn't say anything.
do you blame killing zombies?????
"Just goes on trying to brainwash Clem into believing he's some evil person."
We all know that Kenny was evil person.
He wanted to kill Ben, didnt help Shawn, wanted to leave girl to experience horrible death instead of putting her out of misery, wanted to leave Lilly, Omid and Arvo behind, tries to kill Clems friend (Jane), proposes that they steal the supplies, which eventually cause the death of Lee, the stranger and his family and Ben. Plus he causes the death of Walter, is willing to let Alvin die, beats arvo hard in 2 different scenes for nothing. Thats some of the shit Kenny has pulled in last 2 seasons, and people still treat him as saint.
Yeah, we dont leave friends behind, we just stab them and leave them to turn into walkers.
That's Ok though! Because its Kenny!