Your criticisms of season two
Before I say anything, I want to make it very clear that I absolutely love this series. TWD 1 and 2 are as good as games get. It is the most emotionally invested I have ever been to a story, across all art mediums! A perfect blend of interactivity with amazing, believable characters. I've never been so sympathetic or emotional towards people who aren't even real. I felt a connection with Clementine in season two that I didn't feel with Lee... and he was a really, REALLY great character!
But, I must admit that there are things I think season two could have differently. This might sound ridiculous coming from the same guy who wrote the paragraph above this one, but I do think it has the potential to be even better. I think it was this close to perfection, you know?
Here are a list of my criticisms of season two. Maybe criticism isn't the right word for me to use, but whatever. I'm sure others will feel more strongly about these points as well as others.
- Treatment of Luke's death - A truly shocking moment in S2 E5. He died in the most painful way possible, which made it particularly emotionally impactful. I couldn't believe what I saw. However my problem is actually with regards to the aftermath of his death. Kenny got pissed off, no surprises there, but Clementine and the others brushed off the death pretty quickly. Once they lit the fire for Clementine, I remember her smiling. Of course I hated seeing her upset but I don't think her emotions were realistic in this scene. I think the characters should have spent a lot more time mourning his death. I have similar thoughts with regards to Sarah's death too.
- Cliché moments - I'm reluctant to use the word "cliché" to describe what I mean but I don't know how else to say it. Just because people are crossing a bridge, a frozen lake or whatever doesn't mean someone has to die. When someone did die though it always managed to catch me off guard; only in hindsight do I feel this way about some of the deaths.
- Determinant characters - This would be a very, very difficult point for Telltale to address, but I know it's one of the most common criticisms of TWD. When the player manages to save someone's life, they always get killed off later. In a way, it is basically a way of announcing that they're no longer important in the story. They often become background characters until then because the story has to make sense (and have enough character development) if they didn't survive. Again I appreciate the difficulty, from a narrative perspective, to improve upon this for the next season.
- Treatment of the Wellington ending - Likely the most obscure point on this list, and might not even make sense to a lot of you. I went for the ending whereby Kenny walks off without Clem and AJ. My point is that I didn't want feel it was right for my Clem to cry for him, especially after I had told him in the previous scene that he was a very dangerous man (implying she was scared of him). It just seemed a little off-character to me. Now do I wish that she could have cried if players felt that was "right" for her? Absolutely. But choosing to cry or not doesn't make any sense, so I think that it could have worked like this. After Clem finds out they have no room for Kenny, dialogue choices could have popped up. One of them could have said "thank you for everything, Kenny" (the non-crying response) and the other could have said "I love you, Kenny" (the crying response).
These are my main points. Completely overshadowed by what the season did well, which was basically everything else for me. Maybe some things could have gone in a different direction, such as the character of Carver, but I'd be lying if I said I had any more criticisms than the four above. What are your criticisms of season two? Be constructive and maybe we can help make season three the best season yet!!
Comments
Ouch! Sounds like you didn't like much about season two. I respect your opinion though
Luke's death.
Telltale's horrible treatment of Nick and Sarah, Carver being a lame and uninteresting villain, Sarita being a plot device, Rebecca's 180 of a character in episode 2, Carlos's stupidity and 180 of a character in episode 2, Kenny's "I got lucky" line and the fact nothing new or interesting is done with his character except in episode 5, not very strong character interaction or development, short episodes, Arvo being a plot device, 400 days characters being wasted to stupid cameos, illusion of choice being non existent, most deaths not having any real strong impact, etc. I kind of wish Telltale would go back and remake Season 2, all of these issues could have been avoided easily if Telltale didn't bite off more than they could chew with working on other games and took their time with the story and characters, but I highly doubt they'll do that, at least for now.
Too many characters felt like walking plot devices you could see coming a mile away.
Rebecca pregnant? Yeah, you could see a mile off Clem was going to get loaded with the kid.
Nick as Ben 2.0. A screwup just because the plot demands somebody screws up.
Carlos was dead the minute we knew Sarah was sheltered. He was going to die just so she could inevitably go off the deep end.
Carver being wasted potential. It started off sounding like there was some more grey morality to things. Given how ambigious the Cabin group's escape was I anticipated some surprise where they were pretty bad themselves... instead The Carvernor is a generic tyrant. Oh, and he went out too early. All the biild up for nothing.
Speaking of wasted potential, interesting characters such as Pete, Matthew and Walter died in their first episodes. It felt like Telltale introduced these interesting personalities who were likeable just for the sake of killing them off, whilst more bland or unlikeable characters lasted longer as a sort of 'build up' but just left the others feeling wasted. There's "anyone can die" and then there's "killing off for the sake of being dark".
The story remake, Im pretty sure Eddie was suppose to be in ep 4 but I dont know why the hell they changed it. Oh well...
I do agree a twist with Carver not being as bad as he initially seemed would have been interesting.
It's still enjoyable, the writing is a mess though.
One character too many I think. I think we might see him return
The whole idea of a baby character. While he seems sweet, babies and pregnant women rarely add anything of value to a zombie series. We played as Lee with the focus of keeping Clementine safe, but I don't really want to replay that dynamic with her.
As others have said, Sarah's wasted potential. It made everything done with her during the season seem very meaningless. There would have been nothing wrong with her at least going off with another group or member of their own group, but I didn't think there was a need for her to be killed off so horribly. And that was combined with the annoying "choose to save a certain person but they end up dying later anyway" scenario. (Even worse with this example because it happened in the same episode).
@Arbitrator and J-Master
Finally I agree. Brecon sucks. Don't let him ruin 3rd season, TTG.
Breckon isn't too bad, I liked his writing for the most part, I thought the finale was good.
Forced relationship with Kenny, unlike s1.
I want larger "hubs" back. In Season 1, you could explore Hershel's farm, the Drugstore, Fivel's mansion, Crawford(to an extent), and the motor inn fine. In Season 2, it was a lot more restrictive in the size of the hubs. I also really miss puzzle's. The Episode length was ok, but they could've been longer.
The exploration was cool in season one, but I do like the faster pacing season two offered. They chose to focus on season one's strong points. I think both seasons work in their own way.
This.
S2 wasn't bad by any means, but this seems like the mindset of the writers in season two. It gave out the feeling that the writers were trying way too hard this season to be brutal and edgy. Most of the character deaths this season relied on shock value, rather than building up development for a character, not treating them as plot devices, and making the audience care about them before they died.
Lots of well explained criticisms but damn it sounds like a lot of you didn't even like the season! My problems with it are really just nitpicks.
Too few hubs
That's about it for me. We sorely needed interaction, especially 1on1's with Carlos, Alvin, Sarita, Reggie, 400 days characters and Mike.
Indeed I think optional dialogue would have done a lot to refute many of the points people have made on this thread
What? He's responsible for errors you've mentioned. Guy is terrible writer. Threads started in one ep. were abandoned in second, were meaningless. Character remained unknown; what did we learn about Rebecca, Alvin, Mike, about their life before ZA? Brecon even doesn't know how strong little girl is. Finale was good? Endings were poor - leaving with Kenny was fake and silky. Leaving with Jane - nothing special, leaving only with baby - unbelievable.
Luke dying purely for the shock factor after being built up from episode one. Not only that, but we spend the only time we have to mourn him.. comforting everyone else? Luke was my Clementine's friend. Jane knew him for a day before having sex and then leaving - why is she more upset than me? That makes no sense.
Luke, like him or not, was a major character this season. He was just as important as Kenny leading up to episode five. He was a part of Clementine's journey to safety, a person who protected her and tried his best to be a good leader in such a crap world. He deserved so much better.
i honestly think episodes 3 and 4 are the season's weakest episodes, episode 5 endings were fine.
I think the whole treatment of the cabin survivors was they made you hate them in the beginning minus Pete, Luke, and Alvin. And when you get to Kenny at the ski lodge and Carver comes along and kills Walter, it kind of makes me feel like those people were my problems in the first place, they kind of ruined kenny's chances at the ski lodge, and ruined his chances with sarita, and i kind of hated them after Pete died, I only liked Luke and Alvin.
You might be a bit biased by your pre-existing love for Kenny.
I'd agree that the cabin group largely comes across as unsympathetic to me considering their irrational "survivalist" behavior towards Clem in Episode 1, and that the transition from untrustworthy to friendly is something that the writers assumed rather than actually earned.
Too many assumptions in Season 2's writing, and not enough showing. For instance, there are a few vague throwaway lines by Bonnie that Carver wasn't always evil - this is not at all supported by his in-game behavior, where absolutely everything he does is monstrous and his justifications ring hollow.
The Cabin Group ending up being absolutely pointless and having an insanely small amount of development. This was, to me, the biggest flaw of this entire season. The Walking Dead is as popular as it is because they made us care about the characters and made it hit hard when we lost them. Even my favorite character of the season, Luke, didn't evoke even a quarter of the emotions that Lee or even Duck did with their deaths in season one. Half the characters were just plot devices and half-arsed portraits of "likeable" characters that were supposed to make us sad when they died. Was Alvin's death sad? Yes, but barely knowing and barely caring about the character made his whole dramatic "take care of my family" scene fall flat.
This factors into the above: bringing Kenny back and having him take over the entire season and severely hindering all of the other characters' development. It got to the point where he was more important than Clementine herself. Also backtracking on all of his "flaws" by making his actions justifiable by making the characters he treats badly turn out to be bad after all.
Forcing our Clementine to be attached to certain characters. Considering a big goal of the season seemed to be to give you a choice of how hardened your Clem becomes, I was surprised at how much we were shoehorned into relationships. We had a few moments of that with Luke but once again the Kenny interactions were the most guilty of this.
Luke's lazy death. I just don't see it the same way others do. It wasn't gut-wrenching or even unexpected, it was only surprising that they killed him off in such an unimportant way so early in the episode. Don't set up a character as a deuteroganist (which they most certainly did for a while) and then throw him away like used tissue. It doesn't come off as clever or shocking, it just made me shake my head and question Telltale's writers.
The complete and utter pointlessness and lack of concern for Sarah and Nick and their deaths. Seriously, you could have at least had Luke mourning him for a while. They were set up as such good friends and it ended up amounting to nothing but a couple throwaway mentions.
The lack of hubs and chances to get to know the characters on a deep level. It's amazing what even one small conversation can do. We had a little one with Jane in episode 4 and just that little talk boosted Jane up to being one of the characters we knew most in the entire season, and she only just showed up in episode 3. I hope Telltale sees how much players enjoyed scenes like the episode 5 campfire scene and makes more of them. One of those moments is easily worth 3 of the "exciting, dramatic, fighting for your life" moments.
The wasted potential of Carver. The guy was built up to the nines and for what? To only feature in one episode and not even be that charismatic and calculating of a villain? There was so much more that could have been done with that and his entire group but instead they made him a total caricature and negated all of the mystery and fear that came with every mention of his name before we met him.
Basically there was a lot wrong in my eyes. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed season 2. I just found it to be inferior to season one in nearly every way.
Particularly Episodes 3 and 4. Those two episodes are my main complaint for the season.
I sure hope not.
Luke's death : The waste of such a good character and the way Clem just got over it in 2 seconds.
Kenny. My one big issue with this season is Kenny. Don't get me wrong here. I like Kenny as a character. I just don't like how he's magically alive and that suddenly the focus is on him. It became harder and harder to care about this new group with Kenny back in the picture. And as the season progressed it got even worse. Kenny forcing himself into the narrative so much that it became all about how events effect him. Oh Sarita's dead! Thats the focal point here. Not Jane or finding Luke and Sarah or anything. Its Kenny... ALWAYS ABOUT KENNY. The ending especially annoyed me because i could see how Kenny was losing it and was ready to ditch him like everyone else. But the game forces this attachment to him so that trick Jane did was sooooooooooooooo forced and unnecessary.
A lot of the deaths felt like just there to cause shock factor. Again harder to care about these people when they're all just going to die anyway.
•Some parts felt rushed
• Killing new character off so quickly (ex.Reggie,Matthew)
•Carver not having enough (or any) character development. That's really.
Christ. Where to begin?
That's just off the top of my head. It's been a while since I've played the earlier episodes so I'm sure there are a few things that I forgot.
My criticism focuses almost completely on the last episode. As far as I'm concerned it was the most hackneyed, contrived thing Telltale has ever done.
Luke's death. It SUCKED. But I was still okay with it. Even though it didn't matter what choice you made so I'm kinda confused about why they even presented us with one. This is TWD and people die. I found Clem's way of handling it kinda odd but yah, I was fine with it. Until later in the episode.
Things started going kinda 0_o for me when Mike and Bonnie stole the truck and there was, again, no real option for going with them. They'd take Arvo but not Clem? We didn't get to know Mike that well but Bonnie? After all that talk about trust and making it up to Clementine? After that cigarrette discussion where she pointed out to my Clem that she should give some thought on what SHE wanted for a change? That felt important/profound but NO. And taking all the supplies while there's a fucking baby just seems really unusually dickish on all accounts.
The rifle shot. This miffed me for a bunch of reasons. First of all it was the 3rd miraculously superficial shot of the EPISODE. All the Russians wind up dead from the shoot out and the gang gets some clean wounds through the shoulder and leg. That was pushing it. But letting a 11 year old girl walk away from a RIFLE shot in the shoulder like it was absolutely nothing just really messed with my suspension of disbelief. It also seemed like a wasted opportunity to give all those options for coming up for Arvo and he winds up shooting your regardless.
Jane turning into an insane idiot. I could understand Kenny, they'd been building it up beuatifully for a while now. But Jane? A few superficial issues mostly centering around trust and abandonment sure but THAT level of stupid? Testing Kenny like that just to prove a point? Her unraveling would have made more sense if the other episodes had hinted at how unstable she was but they didn't, they showed a tough but hardened and rational survivor who insta-morphed into an utterly unstable mess of neediness.
The fight. The entire convoluted mess of the episode made sense here. It's like the devs started with this idea that they wanted two unstable [but ultimately likeable and 'redeemable'] fighting to the death and having Clem make a shitty choice and worked backwards from there. They had to kill off Luke because he was the most mentally stable and reasonable person in the group and FUCK the build up of the relationship between Clem and him we've had throughout the season. We had to get Bonnie and Mike out of the picture because while they might not have been as capable as Luke they were certainly more sane than the remaining two participants. We had to have the OOC behaviour from Jane, up till that point a relatively mostly reasonable lady, to build up to that contrived climax point. And Kenny's death speech. Just ugh. Don't get me started. It would've been better if Jane HAD killed/lost the baby because that would have been much more in keeping with her character but faking it to prove a point and get Clem on her side? Yeah no.
The endings. I mentioned earlier that I think the episode was build around the fight scene but I also think another building block was having the baby survive. I had the Clem & AJ alone ending. I would have massively preferred a Clem alone ending. Why are we saddled with the baby? What's more that ending made NO sense. Nine days later an eleven year old girl with a gunshot wound carried a baby through a snowstorm with no supplies and no way to keep warm. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. That really would have been stretching it with just Clem but with the baby? Give me a break. Why wasn't there an option to just shove that little fucker into Jane's/Kenny's arms and be done with it? I imagine it's cuz the baby is gonnna be real important for the next season but it just feels really, really forced. And the season building up the whole "RAH RAH COMPETENT CLEMENTINE CAN GO IT ALONE YEAH!" just made me feel the other two endings where you're saddled with a baby and one of two semi-psychotic mofo's massively thematically unsatisfying.
Massively disappointing episode for me. The first real criticism I had of season two and it soured me on the entire season. I think part of the problem is having a series based on choice and making that an integral part of your game but still clearly having a set end point in mind and railroading the players through plot contrivance to get there. It makes me leery about the future of this kind of storytelling as a whole, if the illusion of choice had been done away with I imagine we would've gotten a very nice story with just the right amount of emotional connection and character development but that would be pretty much a visual novel and unsatisfying for a lot of players so instead we got whatever this hot mess is supposed to be.
Lacked...
Well, I'll readily admit that TTG sort of wrote themselves into a tight spot when they killed Lee in Season 1. If Season 2 had Lee, I probably wouldn't be on here complaining about it.
Also, Season 2 needed more hugs, yes.
Would like to refute your point about Sarah, that telling her you're friends doesn't matter. In my playthrough, I picked "I just met you, we're not friends" when Clem first met her. During episode 4 when Clem's trying to cheer her up I picked "we're friends" but Sarah responded with "no, we're not". Maybe this response is indentical for everyone but I was surprised about just how bad I felt about a tiny thing I said in the first episode. One line of dialogue made me feel that Sarah had nothing to fight for in that episode, and that it was all my fault. Part of me wanted to go back and replay that episode just so that Sarah would consider Clem a friend.
My criticism about the aftermath of Sarah's death (similar to the aftermath of Luke's) still stands though.
I respectfully disagree with you and I'll attempt to refute a couple of your points. About no. 2, I think they thought it was the only way they could escape Kenny. They could not have allowed Clem to go with them because they knew Kenny would want to kill them. It also would have been out of character for Clementine to abandon AJ, Jane and Kenny at that point.
About no. 5, Telltale said she wouldn't have left the baby because her character wouldn't have been quite at that point to make that decision. Also you can bet that in the nine days Clem found supplies, a way to patch her arm up, etc. They focused on the important part; showing she was still alive but still stuck in the nightmare.
season 2 was way too shorter than season 1 ...
and the characters in season 2 was way too lazy to write them like making more improvements they're just killing them off too easily ...there's no much of exploration like season 1 did.. that's why i think i prefer season 1 than season 2 for me
The writing in episode 3 and 4 are my only real complaints. I think it hindered episode 5 in some aspects.
Jane developed into a great character still struggling to come to terms with her past experiences with a group and if she should really try it again, Kenny was well written as we saw him go into a much darker place and mirror scenes we saw earlier from Carver, but that's about it. I get what they were trying to do with Sarah not coping just like Jamie, but the execution at the deck was horrible. It would of been better if we had just not been able to get her out of the caravan instead of giving us a silly scene with the deck. Nick's death felt like they didn't know what to do with that character anymore so they just brushed him aside.
You guys think Luke had an anticlimactic death and wasted potential?
-sits in the back with Nick and Sarah, laughing for 3000 years-