Kenny is great and loyal guy he kill Larry lost family and "boat" after being beaten and lost an eye he enraged, then misfortune strikes again and hes lovely Sarita dies, now we have lost point for Kenny... but on the other hand he have Clemetine so no reason to get alarmed.
After the birth of AJ, Kenny see him as his own child that become an obsesion...
Let say Kenny is NOT become insane and is just semi-rational.
We don't know much aboute she... the backstory that we know is Janne had sister and, was "stupid" as a kid and selfish is as adult... she see Clementine as a sister, taught her how to survive.
Janne is rational.
Janne may did love with Troy/Luke... R.I.P. Troy
Yeah... I love Kenny, I shot Kenny and I din't let him kill Janne and I forgive Janne.
So let's use our imagination:
So if Luke survived and walker get AJ.. and he come back insted Janne will you kill Kenny?
If you(Clemetine) didn't save baby and you say to Kenny "He's..." just imagine Kenny then...
It's not about whether Jane deserved to die or not. That was never the point. Kenny didn't deserve to die, just as much as Jane didn't deserve to die. Nonetheless, Jane and Jane alone should face up to the consequences of her own actions. Knowing full well that this was all Jane's scheme against Kenny, It would have been morally wrong to force Clem to to kill Kenny for the sake of Jane's own selfish desire to have Clem to herself. The guilt of murder should be on Kenny's head, not on Clementine, as she was completely innocent of the fight between Kenny and Jane.
She got what she deserved isn't exactly morally objective. Its ok to kill as long as you are killing the person that induced you to it?
There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so. -- William Shakespeare
It's not about whether Jane deserved to die or not. That was never the point. Kenny didn't deserve to die, just as much as Jane didn't deser… moreve to die. Nonetheless, Jane and Jane alone should face up to the consequences of her own actions. Knowing full well that this was all Jane's scheme against Kenny, It would have been morally wrong to force Clem to to kill Kenny for the sake of Jane's own selfish desire to have Clem to herself. The guilt of murder should be on Kenny's head, not on Clementine, as she was completely innocent of the fight between Kenny and Jane.
She was right, though. It didn't make sense because she didn't know Sarita at all, but she saw Kenny at his worst and that entailed screaming at Clementine, shocking Sarita with his savagery and then failing to put her out of her misery, and then flipping out on an unarmed cripple despite being repeatedly admonished for it.
Kenny becomes a lot more growly and brutal after Carver's beatdown, and I think the implication is that he must've got a little brain damage from that. Controlling his impulses becomes nigh-impossible for him, even if he was subconsciously aware that he'd done something wrong.
The whole fight itself was unrealistic.
Kenny has got to be around 165lbs-200lbs.
And he's shown himself to be a strong guy.
He helped … morelift a door off of Lee, who was pinned underneath; back at the drugstore, a door that had at least 2 walkers on top of it, back in Season 1/Episode 3.
He busted open that armoury door; that was locked up tight, back at Crawford.
And he pinned Mike against a wall back at Carver's.
Mike couldn't even move!
Jane was maybe only 125lbs at best.
And though she may have been strong in her own right, just by size alone, she was no match for Kenny.
What really made me hate Jane, was how she berated and antagonized Kenny in the truck.
Questioning him as a husband and father; saying that he terrorized his late family.
Criticizing him for being unable to protect Sarita, and what not.
And saying even Clementine thought Kenny was a monster.
That was so out of line!
She didn't know what she was talking … [view original content]
Or Kenny being a pretty damn good shot with his one eye.
Injuries in The Walking Dead tend to be there for cosmetic effect. It's why Clementine's doing fine despite not getting any medical treatment for being shot.
Thanks.
When Jane knocked Kenny to the ground, when he pinned her against the wall, I thought to myself: "Oh please!
Give me a break, she … morecouldn't do that, not with her size. She'd have to be Mike's size at least to be able to do that."
And the fact that Kenny got his belly slashed open, and didn't need to be medical attention afterward, like he did with his eye, that was also like: "Oh c'mon."
Ok let put end of this, you did great. I'm not saying that Janne or Kenny are better both made mistakes
Frist to know
Kenn… morey:
http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Kenny_(Video_Game)
Kenny is great and loyal guy he kill Larry lost family and "boat" after being beaten and lost an eye he enraged, then misfortune strikes again and hes lovely Sarita dies, now we have lost point for Kenny... but on the other hand he have Clemetine so no reason to get alarmed.
After the birth of AJ, Kenny see him as his own child that become an obsesion...
Let say Kenny is NOT become insane and is just semi-rational.
Janne:
http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Jane_(Video_Game)
We don't know much aboute she... the backstory that we know is Janne had sister and, was "stupid" as a kid and selfish is as adult... she see Clementine as a sister, taught her how to survive.
Janne is rational.
Janne may did love with Troy/Luke... R.I.P.… [view original content]
Forgive me if I didn't understand you very well. Your English isn't fluent enough.
Your hypotheticals don't really help your case that Jane didn't have to die, since none of your hypotheticals include the premeditated scheme against Kenny nor Jane's uncaring attitude toward AJ. In fact, it's because of these two things alone that Kenny had lost his senses and killed Jane.
So with your first hypothetical, Kenny would not attack Luke in the first place, since Kenny knows that Luke cared about Rebecca and the baby. But let's just theorize that Luke schemed against Kenny to provoke him into a fight. My conscious would still morally obligate me to not get involved, and therefore, let Kenny kill Luke, since this was Luke's own doing and Clem will not take part in the scheme to unknowingly murder Kenny. (And Luke is my favorite character).
As for your second hypothetical, Kenny would not attack Clementine either, since he knows that Clem loves AJ just as much as he does.
Ok let put end of this, you did great. I'm not saying that Janne or Kenny are better both made mistakes
Frist to know
Kenn… morey:
http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Kenny_(Video_Game)
Kenny is great and loyal guy he kill Larry lost family and "boat" after being beaten and lost an eye he enraged, then misfortune strikes again and hes lovely Sarita dies, now we have lost point for Kenny... but on the other hand he have Clemetine so no reason to get alarmed.
After the birth of AJ, Kenny see him as his own child that become an obsesion...
Let say Kenny is NOT become insane and is just semi-rational.
Janne:
http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Jane_(Video_Game)
We don't know much aboute she... the backstory that we know is Janne had sister and, was "stupid" as a kid and selfish is as adult... she see Clementine as a sister, taught her how to survive.
Janne is rational.
Janne may did love with Troy/Luke... R.I.P.… [view original content]
"Other than that, it is implied that possibly she, and Troy had made an agreement that the two would help each other to escape from the 'pen' of the community, through some sexual deals that she offered."
I went through the whole OP, and I have some objections to the "objectivity" claim.
First, you take everything Kenny says at face value, including what he thought motivated Jane, but disregard everything Jane says as lies. Kenny contradicts himself plenty.
For example, he claims after the fight that if she'd just explained things, it wouldn't have gone that far, but during the fight he doesn't press her for answers and he makes it clear that he isn't going to listen to anything she says. Besides, he didn't believe her when she said it was an accident, why would he believe her if she said he was still alive? And even in the dialog after the fight he confesses that he was seeing black and wasn't aware of what he was doing until it was too late. So why would he have listened to anything she said? He's just making excuses.
Also, he says he would never, ever hurt you, and that's factually wrong. If you try to stop him from hitting Arvo, he smacks you in the face. Look: And even during the fight, while stabbing at Jane he causes you to fall and reopens your bullet wound. Yes, it's not "on purpose", he just wasn't paying attention to you. But that is the whole point, he's shown that he can be so blinded by his anger that he will in fact hurt you if you get in his way.
You also misrepresent Jane's motives. Jane doesn't want you "for herself". Her problem is not that she doesn't want to share you with Kenny. After all, she never tries to drive you away from Luke, Bonnie and Mike. She's worried that Kenny's anger issues will hurt you, as they've already proven to do. Aside from Kenny maybe hitting you (while you're freezing to death, if you fell in the lake), Clem was shot because of Kenny's anger issues. Why did Arvo have a gun? Because Mike and Bonnie can't stand being around him anymore, try to run away, and free him.
As she tells you, Jane had seen groups be torn apart by people like Kenny, and she is proven right when the group breaks apart because of Kenny. For all that Kenny claims to care about the survival of the group, he continually puts his feelings ahead of it. When they should have been leaving Carver's camp, instead of helping he wastes precious time beating Carver to death. When the entire group wants to head south, he refuses to listen.
As for his claim that he's trying to get better after the fact, that's just textbook abusive behavior. Look up any testimonies of abuse victims and you'll see that without exception the abuser always shows remorse. Even Sarita was starting to be afraid of Kenny, and unlike Jane she'd seen the best of him. After her death he lashes out at you, only to then apologize. Round and round it goes. He messes up, he apologizes, but he only gets worse.
I also find this interesting:
Jane was disturbed in that she saw in Clem everything that her sister Jaime wasn't, and therefore, became overly protective of Clem in that she went so far as to get Kenny out of the way.
You claim that Jane developed a sister complex because Clem was the opposite of Jamie? That doesn't make any sense. A person doesn't replace a lost relative with someone that they see as completely different. If Jane was susceptible to developing any such issues, it would have been with Sarah, not Clem. Jane was over Jamie. It was painful for her to talk about, and it had added to the baggage that everyone had by that point. With everything she'd lived, it had made her more of a loner, but it didn't define her. She just genuinely liked and cared for Clem, and with her help she grows to trust people again.
If anyone had any complexes, it's the person that calls you by the name of his dead son, and that people ask not to be weird when the baby is born. The person that sees you as someone he has to protect, not as a person in your own right with opinions worth listening to.
Jane did make mistakes. First, setting up the whole situation in the first place. It would have been wrong even if no one died. Second, she underestimated Kenny, and she over estimated herself. She thought Kenny wouldn't go as far as trying to kill her, and she thought she would be able to stay cool enough to call it off once she'd made her point.
However, it's Kenny that initiated the fight. And while I could tell that something weird was going on, Kenny still had no reason to attack her. She wasn't a danger to anyone, they could have left her behind if they wanted to. No matter how angry someone makes you, you don't have a right to beat them up.
I would agree with you, if Jane had truly lost AJ and was not scheming against Kenny. Only then would I see it as morally necessary to interfere and shoot Kenny. But because the limits of the game and the parameters of the story, it gives us only two options, and therefore, I must side with letting Kenny kill Jane out of moral necessity, even though she doesn't deserve it. It's why my Clem was so angry at Kenny for what he did.
This is very clear and coherent analysis of the fight. Many people experienced conflicting emotions and made a choice they regret, I for one am glad that I kept a cool head and didn't shoot Kenny.
I'd also like to point out that the truck's windshield was broken from running over the walker, so AJ could have easily frozen to death or had a walker come crawling into the truck. Leaving the baby out there to prove a point is probably the stupidest and most immoral thing to happen in this series.
I have to agree. I liked your analysis on Jane, but you were blatantly favoring Kenny by not calling him out on his irrational behavior. Kenny is still responsible for murdering Jane (if it goes that far) plus many other events leading up to (and in) this episode. The reality is that both are in the wrong, are dangerous, and should be avoided. You can't justify Kenny's actions by Jane's wrongdoings. Kenny has been unstable all throughout season 2 and arguably, season 1.
So my choice will not be based upon an emotional bias of liking/disliking Kenny/Jane over the other.
Uh, yeah no. You are clearly a … moreKenny fan, my friend. If you really wanted this to have no bias you wouldn't have sided with one or the other at all in this post, but you couldn't even wait to defend Kenny before you got to the end of your post. I noticed also how you took into account all the dialogue that Kenny said after the fight, but none of the dialogue that Jane said. This isn't an analysis; it's a defense of Kenny's actions in the fight. When considering Kenny's dialogue when you're at the car, you're mostly looking at Kenny's explanation of what Jane did, not an unbiased explanation of what Jane did.
Update: Thank you for including Jane's dialogue. However you're still not being unbiased as you're not looking at it from Jane's perspective. You interpret her lines always assuming the worst from her, and that's not fair. See my longer post below.
This is very clear and coherent analysis of the fight. Many people experienced conflicting emotions and made a choice they regret, I for on… moree am glad that I kept a cool head and didn't shoot Kenny.
I'd also like to point out that the truck's windshield was broken from running over the walker, so AJ could have easily frozen to death or had a walker come crawling into the truck. Leaving the baby out there to prove a point is probably the stupidest and most immoral thing to happen in this series.
"Other than that, it is implied that possibly she, and Troy had made an agreement that the two would help each other to escape from the 'pen' of the community, through some sexual deals that she offered."
first though you interpret thoughts of jane for pulling out the knife. we don't know she meant to provoke a fight, though she pretty much had said early that he would beat a person to death. given that she felt he wouldn't be able to hold himself back, and would go into a rage, pulling the knife may have been purely defensive.
second she does hold back when she slashed him, as his guts aren't falling out (she didn't penetrate through the muscle holding in the guts, and he still had use of his chest muscle so that wasn't cut through either).
third she follows him right after getting choked (arm across the throat while pressed against the door) and probably wasn't thinking too straight (fight or flight mode).
given the level of regret he shows, we can see that he knows he has issues, however he also tends to justify his actions. this is what abusive people tend to do (it is rare for them not to show remorse). he is definitely losing it, and she is definitely a manipulator.
if you read the options given to you when you talk to her after the fight, there isn't a forgive her option. one of them is to admit that he was losing it (she was right), but that is hardly the same as forgiveness.
as for kenny showing regret at any point for beating on arvo, it doesn't always happen on all playthroughs (it didn't on mine). jane saw what everyone else saw, but she didn't hand a gun to the guy that tried to get everyone killed for getting his weapon taken from him when he threatened a little girl with it, steal all the supplies, steal the truck which they couldn't get working on their own (and even thought it was a lost cause), and leave a girl for dead after getting her shot.
if you looked at the choice as 'who do i kill' the decision gets very hard. if you look at it as 'getting involved' the decision gets easier, at least from a pure logic perspective.
Before I respond to your claims, I want to make it clear that my “moral objectivity” argument is separate from my analysis of Kenny’s justification over killing Jane. My moral objectivity argument stands apart from Kenny’s “excuses”.
Your assertion that Kenny would not listen to Jane even if she told the truth is groundless because you have nothing to base that on except speculation. I will admit though that you and I can never be sure whether Kenny would listen to Jane or not if she told the truth. We’ll never know because Jane never did tell the truth during the fight nor did she want to, as it became clear that Jane wanted Kenny dead. Therefore, I can only go by what Kenny claims he would do if Jane told the truth. And just because Kenny said that “everything went black”, doesn’t mean that he lost the mental capacity to hear people out. Kenny clearly heard both Clem’s plight to stop fighting and Jane’s threats to kill him and was able to respond back, negatively of course, but nonetheless he could clearly listen to what Jane and Clem were saying during the fight. Sadly the only thing that Kenny never heard was the truth from Jane.
As for your assertion that Kenny would hurt anybody if they got in his way, you completely misunderstood Kenny. When he said, “I’d never, ever hurt you” to Clem. He meant purposefully, which you rightly point out, but you twist his words to mean that Kenny would never hurt Clem in general. I already know of that scene where Kenny accidently elbows Clem on the nose when he’s beating up on Arvo, but you have not proven your point that Kenny contradicts himself.
As for me misrepresenting Jane. When I said that Jane wanted Clem for herself, I didn’t mean that she didn’t want to share Clem with anyone. I meant that she perceived Kenny as a threat to her bond with Clem and thought that she needed to get rid of Kenny for Clem’s safety and supposed freedom, despite Clem having a close friendship with Kenny.
And Kenny’s anger issues may have led the events to Arvo shooting Clementine, but it was NOT Kenny’s anger issues that motivated Arvo to shoot Clementine. Even if you were really nice to Arvo and defended him from Kenny he would always give you a nasty look. And why is that? Because it was Clementine who killed his zombified sister. So we can say that Kenny’s anger issues was the reason as to HOW it led Arvo to shoot Clementine, but it’s certainly not the reason WHY Arvo shot Clementine.
And certainly Kenny was partly to blame for the group splitting up. But the consequences of the betrayal of Bonnie and Mike is on them, not Kenny. Every action one takes is their own and cannot be blamed on another. Bonnie and Mike made their choice to abandon the group out of fear and that guilt is their own.
And I will not defend Kenny’s increasingly abusive behavior. However, that does not mean Kenny is lying when he says he’s trying to be better. The aftermath of the fight and during the ending at Wellington is proof of that. Abusive people who have promised to get better and have broken those promises are not to be discarded as unsavable because there are always those people who have been abusive for years, but then became reformed. Giving up on the abusive person only adds to that person’s abusive behavior.
And for me, Jane did seem like she was developing a sister-complex, not because Clem was the opposite of Jamie, but because Jane never saw Jaime as a sister. Remember when she was talking about her sister in Ep. 4 she said that she was mean to Jaime and didn’t know why she would act that way, and when they would go to the Carnival she would pretend to be “friends” with Jaime and not sisters because no one knew them there (but I don’t want people to misunderstand me, that just because Jane viewed Jaime as a friend doesn’t mean that she didn’t love her. Jane certainly loved her sister and saved her so many times until Jaime completely gave up). However, when it came to Clem, she saw in her someone just like her (strong, independent, brave, able to face reality, resourceful, etc.). She saw Clem as the sister that she never had. And because of that she became overprotective of her when Kenny began to be more aggressive in his behavior.
Now I don’t think Kenny saw Clem as a Duck substitute, rather, when he referred Clem as Duck, it was because he still couldn’t let go of the fact that his family was gone. However, when Kenny became attached to AJ, to me he did seem to view him as a replacement to Duck.
And I beg to differ, that Jane didn’t know that Kenny would go so far as to kill her. Her own dialogue after Kenny said he was going to kill her (“I knew you would”) is proof that she knew very well that Kenny would try to kill her. I do believe she thought she could beat Kenny, which is why she intended to kill him, but unfortunately it didn’t turn out in her favor.
And I agree with you that Kenny should never have overreacted and attack Jane, but none of this would have happened if she did not scheme to provoke him to a fight by lying about AJ and pushing him over the edge.
I went through the whole OP, and I have some objections to the "objectivity" claim.
First, you take everything Kenny says at face value, … moreincluding what he thought motivated Jane, but disregard everything Jane says as lies. Kenny contradicts himself plenty.
For example, he claims after the fight that if she'd just explained things, it wouldn't have gone that far, but during the fight he doesn't press her for answers and he makes it clear that he isn't going to listen to anything she says. Besides, he didn't believe her when she said it was an accident, why would he believe her if she said he was still alive? And even in the dialog after the fight he confesses that he was seeing black and wasn't aware of what he was doing until it was too late. So why would he have listened to anything she said? He's just making excuses.
Also, he says he would never, ever hurt you, and that's factually wrong. If you try to stop him from hitting Arvo, h… [view original content]
Kenny isn't the only one who has lost family. What makes him so special? And if he would've stopped if Jane said the baby was alive, why wouldn't he listen to Clementine. Oh wait..
Kenny fucks up
IM SORRY CLEM, ILL BE DIFFERENT NEXT TIME
CLEM: Aww K!
REPEAT
And certainly Kenny was partly to blame for the group splitting up.... Partly? Mike even says they can't stand Kenny anymore. So, how is that partly?
I actually did call Kenny out on his irrational behavior. He had lost his senses, was not willing to hear Jane out when Clem requested that of him, and became overwhelmed by thoughts of AJ's death at the hands of Jane. But again, Kenny's irrational behavior is exactly what Jane wanted to happen as she had schemed to do from the beginning in order to get Kenny out of the picture. Both Kenny and Jane were in the wrong, no doubt. But again, when it comes to Clementine, was it morally right for her to get involved and kill Kenny, knowing full well that this was Jane's own deception? The responsibility and guilt must lay on those who are involved, and that is Kenny and Jane, not Clementine.
I have to agree. I liked your analysis on Jane, but you were blatantly favoring Kenny by not calling him out on his irrational behavior. Ken… moreny is still responsible for murdering Jane (if it goes that far) plus many other events leading up to (and in) this episode. The reality is that both are in the wrong, are dangerous, and should be avoided. You can't justify Kenny's actions by Jane's wrongdoings. Kenny has been unstable all throughout season 2 and arguably, season 1.
Forgive me if I didn't understand you very well. Your English isn't fluent enough.
Your hypotheticals don't really help your case that Ja… morene didn't have to die, since none of your hypotheticals include the premeditated scheme against Kenny nor Jane's uncaring attitude toward AJ. In fact, it's because of these two things alone that Kenny had lost his senses and killed Jane.
So with your first hypothetical, Kenny would not attack Luke in the first place, since Kenny knows that Luke cared about Rebecca and the baby. But let's just theorize that Luke schemed against Kenny to provoke him into a fight. My conscious would still morally obligate me to not get involved, and therefore, let Kenny kill Luke, since this was Luke's own doing and Clem will not take part in the scheme to unknowingly murder Kenny. (And Luke is my favorite character).
As for your second hypothetical, Kenny would not attack Clementine either, since he knows that Clem loves AJ just as much as he does.
Kenny isn't the only one who has lost family. What makes him so special? And if he would've stopped if Jane said the baby was alive, why wou… moreldn't he listen to Clementine. Oh wait..
Kenny fucks up
IM SORRY CLEM, ILL BE DIFFERENT NEXT TIME
CLEM: Aww K!
REPEAT
And certainly Kenny was partly to blame for the group splitting up.... Partly? Mike even says they can't stand Kenny anymore. So, how is that partly?
The first hythetical you gave me, I already answered, Kenny wouldn't kill Luke.
Kenny knew very well he was in the wrong in trying to murder Jane and that's why he said that Clementine made the right decision in shooting him, which I would have agreed with him had it not been for the fact that Jane schemed against Kenny in the first place and lied about AJ in order to make him lose his mind.
tell me the part you don't understand...
if you let Kenny kill Luke you are scumbag...
and yeah maybe he won't attack Clemetine..… more.
but still after Janne put back knife all got clear... I almost let Kenny kill someone again event him say )
Kenny "Clem.. You made the right choice..."
Thank you for such a careful reply. Most people don't bother to read through a whole post before replying, but you clearly did.
I don't think we'll come to an agreement over whether Kenny would or would not have stopped. It sounds to me as an excuse. I'm not saying he's lying, simply that he felt guilty and wanted to rationalize his actions after the fact. Considering his own description of how he felt, it doesn't sound like he'd have been able to stop himself.
As for Kenny saying he'd never hurt Clem, I did not mean to twist his words. No one, not even Jane, makes the claim that he'd ever hurt Clem on purpose. Saying "I'd never hurt you on purpose" is pointless because no one claimed that he would. The problem is that Kenny is careless, and when he gets angry he stops thinking about Clem's safety. And he's angry a lot. This creates pointlessly dangerous situations. An effective caretaker minimizes dangerous situations, because the best way to avoid someone coming to harm is to prevent them from being in danger in the first place. Kenny exacerbates every situation: in the lodge he fights Carver's group, which gets Walter and potentially Alvin killed. In the truck he frees himself and plans on jumping their more numerous and better armed captors. He makes enemies out of his friends by being needlessly violent to their captive. And he antagonizes Jane when all that's left of the group is AJ, Clem, Jane and himself. He doesn't care that a bigger group is safer for Clem to be in, he tears the group apart being angry.
Ben never wanted to hurt anyone either, and he doesn't purposefully hurt anyone, but Kenny still blames him for his family's death. Intentions don't matter when the consequences come back to bite you.
Seeing as you're reluctant to read too much into what Kenny says and take him at face value, and argue that there's no way to tell whether he really would have stopped, I'd like you to offer some more compelling evidence for the claim that "[Jane] perceived Kenny as a threat to her bond with Clem". There's no evidence given for this. Jane is clear, and states several times, that she's afraid of Kenny getting Clem killed. In so far as her bond with Clem requires that Clem be alive, you'd be right, but you clearly don't mean it that way.
I never claimed that Kenny's repeated abuse made Arvo want to kill Clem. I agree with you that Arvo was angry at Clem for shooting Natasha (possibly not aware that Natasha was a walker when she did). But this goes back to the point of how you protect people. Fighting off immediate threats is necessary, but avoiding a dangerous situation is better. Kenny is willing to fight off immediate threats, but he can't help but create needless dangerous situations, because he refuses to think about consequences. Even if Arvo hated Clementine, he couldn't have shot her if he'd been tied up. And he'd been tied up if Mike hadn't feared for his safety.
Arvo is the person ultimately responsible, sure. He's the one that pulled the trigger. But Kenny was not very good at protecting Clem from Arvo. If he'd treated Arvo better, and been more calm when dealing with Mike, he'd have done a better job of protecting Clem. He chose to act in a way that strained the relationships in the group, for no reason other than he felt better when hurting a defenseless kid. When those relationships are what keep you safe at night, straining those relationships puts the people you claim to be protecting at risk.
Also, you use something of a double standard here. You claim that "Every action one takes is their own and cannot be blamed on another," and I agree with you, but then you argue that "Kenny should never have overreacted and attack Jane, but none of this would have happened if she did not scheme to provoke him to a fight." You can't claim that Clem getting shot is on Mike and Bonnie but that Kenny can be forgiven because of Jane's manipulation.
Kenny forced Mike and Bonnie to flee just as surely as Jane pushed Kenny to fight. He may not have been aware that he was doing it, but again, that's the point. Kenny is dangerous because he refuses to think about how his actions affect others.
As for Jane's treatment of Jamie, that's actually a normal relationship between siblings when growing up. Generally, siblings will be united against the outside, but tear at each other in private. In a sense you adopt the position that you're the only one allowed to hurt your siblings. It's relatively healthy behavior. Notice that even though she was dumb as a kid, her sister loved her (she had to punish her for trusting her), and she dragged her around until she physically could not save her. And for all her tough exterior, she still suffers for not being able to save her. The loner outlook was just the way she coped and avoided being hurt again.
Finally, when she says "I knew you would", I don't think that means she knew Kenny would try to kill her for this particular plan. I think she meant it in the more general way that she knew that being with Kenny would be the death of her. Which is why she wanted to leave him in the first place. She messed up with this plan, but she wasn't planning on having a fight to the death just then.
Thanks for your comment,
Before I respond to your claims, I want to make it clear that my “moral objectivity” argument is separate from m… morey analysis of Kenny’s justification over killing Jane. My moral objectivity argument stands apart from Kenny’s “excuses”.
Your assertion that Kenny would not listen to Jane even if she told the truth is groundless because you have nothing to base that on except speculation. I will admit though that you and I can never be sure whether Kenny would listen to Jane or not if she told the truth. We’ll never know because Jane never did tell the truth during the fight nor did she want to, as it became clear that Jane wanted Kenny dead. Therefore, I can only go by what Kenny claims he would do if Jane told the truth. And just because Kenny said that “everything went black”, doesn’t mean that he lost the mental capacity to hear people out. Kenny clearly heard both Clem’s plight to stop fighting and Jane’s threat… [view original content]
Good point.
I guess there's only so much realism that can be incorporated into a videogame.
Still, I think there are some areas that telltale could've improved on.
Like for example, back at the drugstore Lee had a rifle, and yet when he's shown looking for a way up on top of the trailer, he doesn't have it.
Why not just show him hanging it over his shoulder by a shoulder strap?
Or Kenny being a pretty damn good shot with his one eye.
Injuries in The Walking Dead tend to be there for cosmetic effect. It's why Clementine's doing fine despite not getting any medical treatment for being shot.
According to some folks, there were sound files that made it more explicit that Troy was being sexually aggressive towards her. I don't know why that was cut out as it made a lot of people think that Jane was just a castrating bitch, even though it's made abundantly clear by how he abuses two underage girls that he's probably not as suave with the ladies as Luke would be.
"Other than that, it is implied that possibly she, and Troy had made an agreement that the two would help each other to escape from the 'pen' of the community, through some sexual deals that she offered."
Ok, here we go. I've been really reluctant to get into this debate that often, but since you prompted me I will. I'm mostly defending Jane here because well, you unfairly didn't at all, especially if you're trying to be "unbiased." However I will note that I am mad at Jane. Anyway... * cracks knuckles * Two main things, and then a bunch of nitpicks:
1) One detail that I never see anyone bring up anywhere, and will be relevant later in this post:
Skip to the end of the fight, when Kenny is bearing down on Jane with the knife to her chest.
Jane: Clem...help!
No one ever notices that Kenny has ALREADY SHALLOWLY STABBED HER ONCE IN THE CHEST before stabbing her a second time to finally kill her. Remember that red stain on her heart when she's standing by the car if you shot Kenny? That was where Kenny stabbed her once already, before killing her.
After she's stabbed once, Jane is about to die. She is on the verge of death. Now remember Jane is a survivor. It makes no sense for her to not confess about AJ if she's on the brink of death, stabbed once already close to her heart, even if she thinks Kenny won't believe her. Confessing would've prompted Clem to help her, no doubt. Why would Jane give up so easily to die and leave Clem alone with Kenny? (The whole reason she's fighting is to not leave Clem alone with Kenny!) It makes no sense. The only thing I can think of is she's numb with terror and about to die and just not thinking straight. But living in the ZA, Jane must be on the verge of death all the time. Everybody is. Imo it was the writers just making her stupid/scared on purpose so that Clem won't automatically try to save Jane, and so the final big game choice would be preserved. Anyway whether or not it's bad writing, this detail is important.
2) Jane didn't want to kill Kenny until later. I maintain that she didn't know Kenny would try to kill her; I know you say differently but let me explain.
I do realize that when Kenny says near the end, "I'll kill you!" Jane says, "I knew you would!" Supposedly from this statement she knew that Kenny would kill her from the start. But I don't think she knew for sure that he would kill her, from the beginning of the fight.
Jane didn't intend to kill Kenny or have him dead at first, like you said. At one point, she says, "Just go," to him (dialogue from the silent playthrough which you've also excluded I've noticed, though it was probably just an oversight. It looks like you did take most dialogue into account though.) That interaction goes like this, when they first step outside:
Jane: Just go.
Kenny: I ain’t goin’ nowhere.
Jane: Fine. [Jane charges Kenny with the knife.]
She didn't know Kenny would kill her for sure; she gave him the chance to leave and not hurt anyone. It's pretty clear to me from the dialogue above that Jane has made the decision to end Kenny when, and only when, he has decided not to leave, though she wasn't planning on killing him before. If Clem goes between them immediately, we don't hear this "Just go" interaction. It is also at this point that Jane probably knows that Kenny would try to kill her. Before the "Just go" interaction, Kenny says, "You’re fuckin’ DEAD!" (he says this right before Jane gets him in the stomach, though you may have to wait for him to say it) indicating Kenny plans to kill Jane before Jane ever verbally indicated she would kill him. Some time after he threatens to kill her and after Kenny says he won't leave, Jane says, "It's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery." She only says this quote after Kenny indicates he's not leaving.
I think shooting Kenny is very akin to the Carol/Lizzie scene from the show. (Spoilers for the tv show; I know OP has watched the show though bc I read your entire post.) The basics are that a dangerous mentally-disturbed person has to leave the group because of their dangerous actions. Since there are no mental hospitals or therapy available in TWD universe, there are only so many options to carry this out. Lizzie, a child, killed her sister and was ready to welcome her back as a walker. After much debate Carol knew the best course of action was to kill Lizzie, because the girl wasn't safe to be around other people. Similarly, Kenny was on the verge of committing murder if you shot him. As indicated in 1), he had stabbed the knife into Jane's chest once before finally killing her, so we know that he was going to kill Jane, even without hindsight. In this case, we're stopping Kenny before he does commit murder.
3) You language is unnecessarily pro-Kenny for being "unbiased."
It is true that Kenny has increasingly become violent and irrationally stubborn, but again this whole situation is still Jane's fault, as she manipulates Kenny into losing control of his senses over AJ's supposed death.
Yes Jane does manipulate the situation, and she certainly instigated it. But to say the "whole situation is still Jane's fault" is I think a bit extreme.
You keep saying Kenny was manipulated into killing Jane. Sure he was. But a manipulated person still shouldn't have to commit murder. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're crazy, or if you've been pushed to your limits. I don't even care if you're Lee. Even if you're a parent whose child has been killed, MURDER is still NOT justified, especially if you have no evidence. You may feel like you need to kill someone who might've killed your kid, but you don't act on it in a violent manner. Killing him on the other hand in Self Defense of Others after evidence has been gathered is different.
Kenny did have to be killed because he was going to commit murder; the evidence was right in front of us. He had already stabbed Jane once as stated in 1) and was going to do it again. He had proven himself to be dangerous.
You also say about shooting Kenny, "Essentially, it's not based on practical concerns, but rather irrational theoretical concerns." You're arguing here about "theoretical concerns." But this situation wasn't theoretical although it was staged. Kenny did irrationally try to kill Jane even when she said it was an accident.
If Clem had not have had such a close relationship with AJ, Jane would not have cared at all about the baby, especially since she kept referring to AJ as "it".
You don't know that Jane would never care for AJ. She was worried that Clem was getting attached to the baby, because let's face it, it's not gonna be easy to keep him alive, and if he dies, it's gonna hit Clem harder the more attached she is to him. That's Jane's philosophy in a nutshell: don't get attached to people because once you lose them, there's too much pain. That may be why Jane herself tried not to get attached to AJ and referred to him as "it." It's true that Jane would probably have never willingly gotten into a situation where she'd have to care for a baby, but she's not so heartless to not care for it. She suggests they go back to Howe's for the baby formula, remember? Sure it was probably also the best shelter she could think of, but logically speaking Jane was right. If Kenny and Clem had tried to find Wellington through trial and error, it might've taken them a lot longer to find compared to Howe's, but they were just lucky. cough bad writing cough Also they were more sure Howe's had baby formula than Wellington (they weren't even sure at that point if Wellington even existed.)
The reason why I bring up these flaws is that Kenny would never scheme to get rid of Jane because of her flaws. Therefore, Jane also should never have schemed against Kenny because of his flaws.
This is not an argument. Kenny and Jane aren't the same person so they won't have the same actions in the same scenario.
While Kenny had a "It’s my way or the highway" attitude, never once did he force others to follow him
Uhh... "Look, I don't care two shits what you people think. I got this truck workin', so I say where we go, and we're headin' fuckin' north."
“Tell you what, we can turn around just as soon as you pry this wheel from my cold, dead fingers. How’s that sound?” He said it himself, ladies and gentlemen. You have to kill Kenny if you disagree with him. And he wasn’t exaggerating. You know, next I could say that Jane had no choice at this point but to formulate some plan to leave Kenny with Clem. But you know what? The next thing Jane says is, "Whatever, I give up.” Implying that she’d go along with Kenny just to keep him calm. Yes, this could’ve been a lie. But at this point she’s not escalating the fight.
As for Kenny not being able to stop himself. That’s’ really a non-issue, since we’ll never know for sure because Jane never told the truth. The more important issue is not whether Kenny would be able to stop himself, but that Jane never attempted to stop the fight as she had originally planned since she had already proven her point. Jane had made up her mind to kill Kenny and there was nothing Clem could do to stop both Kenny and Jane.
And I agree with you that Kenny was careless, made thoughtless and rash decisions, and was becoming increasingly violent, therefore, putting the group in danger. I never once tried justifying Kenny’s violent behavior as something morally right or as something I can just ignore. Though I would disagree with you that Kenny didn’t care that being in a bigger group was safer for Clem. He most certainly did, but his abusive actions had unintentionally driven the group apart. Yet, what Jane supporters don’t understand is that, when it comes to the Kenny/Jane fight, his violent behavior is beside the point. It was Jane who had the evil intention of using Kenny’s violent behavior against him in order to try and justify her attempt at murdering him.
You brought up Ben. And he is perfect in illustrating my point. Ben’s clumsiness and poor judgement had unintentionally put the group in danger and resulted in people dying and because of this Kenny wanted him dead, but simply because of a person’s flaws does not justify anyone wanting that person dead (or at least gone from the group). This is why I stood up for Ben against Kenny. In the same way, Kenny’s anger issues had unintentionally put the group in danger and divided the group, but that alone did not give Jane the right to scheme against him and attempt to murder him.
People keep pointing out the fact that Jane “knew” the group was going to collapse because she’s “seen it happen before”. What they don’t realize is that people like Jane also contribute to the group collapsing. Mistrust, viewing others in a negative light, giving up on those you deem “hopeless” (example, her willingness to leave Sarah and her unwillingness to save her at the deck), berating those that antagonize you (the verbal fight in the truck). This kind of behavior leads to groups splitting apart. The difference between Kenny and Jane is that while Kenny’s abusive behavior had unintentionally led to the group falling apart, Jane had the INTENTION of dividing what was left of the group by turning on Kenny and putting AJ in danger and using Clem as a tool in her scheme to get rid of Kenny by forcing her to finish off Kenny when she herself couldn’t. You say that intentions don’t matter when it comes to the consequences, but when it comes to doing what is morally right intentions do matter.
As for you wanting evidence for Kenny being a threat to Jane’s bond with Clem. In episode 5, we see the conflict between Jane and Kenny begin when she returns and all the way through the episode. Kenny clearly sees Jane as a bad influence on Clem when he criticizes her for stealing Arvo’s supplies (if your Clem chose to steal the supplies) and putting the group in danger because of it. Kenny also doesn’t like it when Jane convinces Clem to drink alcohol (if you chose to drink the rum) and points that out. He even gives her a nasty look when Jane is left to take care of the baby by herself at Arvo’s place (since he doesn’t trust her with the baby (for good reason as I point out in my analysis) and asks Clem what Jane was saying behind his back, which he assumes this of course, and he views Jane as person who shows no respect and cares for no one. Jane on the other hand views Kenny as a bad influence on Clem too, as she points out Kenny’s increasingly violent behavior, and his arrogant “my way or the highway” attitude and unwillingness to listen to others. She also wants Clem to live “free” and sees Kenny as someone who’s controlling Clem’s thoughts and decisions (and if you side with Kenny in the truck at the end she’ll say “You’re just like him”, but I also want to add that Kenny charges Jane with the same thing that she’s controlling Clem’s thoughts and decisions.) It becomes clear that Kenny and Jane are battling for Clem to be on their side. Because of this Jane views Kenny as a threat to her bond with Clem and schemes against Kenny so she can keep Clem safe from him. Hopefully this satisfies you. If not, then agree to disagree.
As for Arvo shooting Clem, again bringing up the blame game does not justify Jane’s scheme to get rid of Kenny. Mike and Bonnie have just as much guilt on their heads as Kenny does. Remember that Mike and Bonnie were never forced into abandoning the group, they chose to leave behind everyone and take all their stuff (leaving them to die essentially) simply because of their irrational fear of Kenny. As Jane herself ponted out, “I don’t think they knew what they were doing”.
As for your charge that I use double standards in regards to Kenny and Jane. Not once did I argue that Kenny could be forgiven for killing Jane simply because she schemed against him. My whole argument revolves around Clementine and what she should do in this situation. Kenny and Jane are to blame for whatever happens in the fight, but that does not mean that Clementine should dirty her hands and conscience over this debacle. Kenny is a murderer for killing Jane plain and simple. Unfortunately, this was the consequences of Jane’s own deception. It would be morally reprehensible for Clementine to be the unknowing murderer for killing Kenny due to Jane’s deception.
And again you bring up Kenny’s violent behavior, which as I have already said is beside the point when we fully know that this was Jane’s own doing. As I said, Kenny never forced Mike and Bonnie to abandon the group. It was their choice. And it was Jane’s choice to scheme against Kenny by lying to him about AJ, and therefore, forced Kenny to overreact the way he did, knowing full well that that’s what Jane wanted to happen.
And you might be right about Jane’s behavior towards Jaime. Maybe I was reading too much into it. But I still believe that Jane’s affection for Clementine, and ONLY for Clementine, seems suspect. She made strides to change and work with the group, but only for Clem’s sake and not her own. The only one she truly cared about was Clem and no one else, not even AJ (Even when Clem attempts to make her care about AJ, she still didn’t view AJ as a person, instead she kept calling him “it”). This is why I believe she developed a sister-complex. And her overprotectiveness of Clem led her to do something really foolish.
As for your interpretation of Jane’s dialogue “I knew you would”. It’s pretty obvious to me that she meant she knew Kenny would try to kill her, not that he would be the death of her. It’s pretty much established way before the fight that she believed Kenny’s violent behavior would be the death of her. But it’s exactly that belief that she was banking on, that Kenny would indeed overreact to the point of actually wanting to kill her. The moment she made her intention to kill Kenny was the moment she knew the fight would be to the death, and that’s why when Kenny said “I’ll kill you” she responded to his statement by saying “I knew you would”.
Thank you for such a careful reply. Most people don't bother to read through a whole post before replying, but you clearly did.
I don't t… morehink we'll come to an agreement over whether Kenny would or would not have stopped. It sounds to me as an excuse. I'm not saying he's lying, simply that he felt guilty and wanted to rationalize his actions after the fact. Considering his own description of how he felt, it doesn't sound like he'd have been able to stop himself.
As for Kenny saying he'd never hurt Clem, I did not mean to twist his words. No one, not even Jane, makes the claim that he'd ever hurt Clem on purpose. Saying "I'd never hurt you on purpose" is pointless because no one claimed that he would. The problem is that Kenny is careless, and when he gets angry he stops thinking about Clem's safety. And he's angry a lot. This creates pointlessly dangerous situations. An effective caretaker minimizes dangerous situations, because the best… [view original content]
I should clarify that I don't agree with Jane's actions either. I don't think her plan was right or justified in any sense. Just in case, since you seem to believe I am defending it at points (if I'm just misunderstanding certain comments, no problem).
I do object to this argument:
Kenny never forced Mike and Bonnie to abandon the group. It was their choice. And it was Jane’s choice to scheme against Kenny by lying to him about AJ, and therefore, forced Kenny to overreact the way he did
Jane didn't force Kenny to attack. She didn't put him in a situation where his only option was to fight to save his or Clementine's life. Kenny is as responsible for attacking as Mike and Bonny are for leaving the group. Jane having an ulterior motive doesn't make her responsible for Kenny's actions. Kenny's behavior drove Mike and Bonnie away just as much as Jane's actions drove Kenny to attack. They presented a motive. Their actions in response to that is on them.
This is what I mean by double standard, you claim that people are responsible for their actions, except in Kenny's case where Jane is responsible for his actions. Saying that it was Kenny's choice to attack doesn't mean that Jane was right to do what she did, it's simply a matter of applying the same standards to everyone.
If we allow for Jane to be responsible for Kenny's actions, then we can go further back and note that Kenny wouldn't allow Jane to go. In the car she asks to be let out because she can't stand being with Kenny anymore and he mocks her and doesn't let her get out of the car. Which explains Jane talking about being free. So we can say Kenny is responsible for Jane's actions after that point, and then go back to how they were both sniping at each other, and so on ad infinitum.
Since that makes any argument pointless (it all comes down to the way things happened in the beginning of the universe and no one is responsible for anything), we have to come down on the side that people are responsible for their actions, regardless of what other people are doing around them, and it's how they react that determines if they were right to do something.
Jane was wrong to put Kenny in the situation of thinking AJ was dead. We disagree on her motivation, I don't think she intended for him to reach the point where he tried to kill her. I don't think she intended for her herself to try to kill Kenny, much less to put Clem in that situation. Kenny was also wrong for attacking when he had better alternatives (attacking as a last resort or when someone is threatening you, or even preemptively if you know for a fact that someone is about to, can be justified).
As for you wanting evidence for Kenny being a threat to Jane’s bond with Clem. [...]
You actually kind of show the opposite, that Kenny was feeling his bond with Clem threatened by Jane. It's true that they were both trying to undermine the other, but during the scene at the house, while Kenny was fixing the truck, you can see that Jane isn't resentful of Kenny. She doesn't show animosity towards him. In short, she shows no sign of seeing Kenny as a threat to their relationship. She says that he is a good guy, but he's losing it. It's not that she doesn't like Kenny, she is trying to open Clem's eyes to the fact that even people you like can be dangerous.
Kenny, on the other hand, is paranoid. He asks what you were talking about with Jane, and tells you how someone ought to teach her "respect" (which is his way of saying that he'd like "someone" to beat her up so she learns her place, as if respect was something you took from someone instead of something earned. Sorry about the lengthy aside, but his comment there really bugged me). If anyone is feeling threatened, it's Kenny.
The only one she truly cared about was Clem and no one else
I think she didn't want to care, and presented a cold front, but she did care for Luke. Which I think is part of why she left in the first place. If you tell her after the lake that Luke cared for her too, she cries and is clearly affected. I find Jane compelling as a character because of this dynamic. She cares about people, even though she doesn't want to. She presents a cold, lone wolf persona, but she forms attachments to people. Kenny (and many people in this forum) can't seem to see past the way she presents herself, but her actions clearly show that she does care.
The way she acts around Sarah is an interesting example. People complain about how she's out for herself, but she's second only to Clem in trying to save her. It's true that she argues against saving her at the trailer, but I didn't hear Luke arguing against her. His rib was bruised but he could still have said something. Personally, I think Luke had given up on Sarah after spending hours trying to get to her. But it's always Jane that is accused of not caring.
Later, at the deck, Jane can be convinced to actually drop down to try to save Sarah. Yes, she needs cajoling, but I would point out that Mike could have easily dropped down and helped Sarah get out from under the rubble (he's shown to be stronger than the girls, and it would have been easier between two people, one lifts the rubble and the other pulls Sarah out), but no one complained about him not doing anything. If Jane really didn't care about Sarah, she wouldn't have dropped down. Even if she cared about Clem and Clem's opinion of her, that's not enough for someone to just put their lives at risk. Luke was arguing against Jane helping Sarah, and he wouldn't have been the one putting himself at risk.
Jane left because she cared about people, not because she didn't. Because she's lost a lot of people she cared about, and she didn't want to lose more people she cared about, and the easiest way to do that is to leave. Because despite her efforts she couldn't stop herself from caring.
Thanks for the response
As for Kenny not being able to stop himself. That’s’ really a non-issue, since we’ll never know for sure because… more Jane never told the truth. The more important issue is not whether Kenny would be able to stop himself, but that Jane never attempted to stop the fight as she had originally planned since she had already proven her point. Jane had made up her mind to kill Kenny and there was nothing Clem could do to stop both Kenny and Jane.
And I agree with you that Kenny was careless, made thoughtless and rash decisions, and was becoming increasingly violent, therefore, putting the group in danger. I never once tried justifying Kenny’s violent behavior as something morally right or as something I can just ignore. Though I would disagree with you that Kenny didn’t care that being in a bigger group was safer for Clem. He most certainly did, but his abusive actions had unintentionally driven the group apart. Yet, what … [view original content]
I'm really suprised no one replied to this post yet. I usually try to stay out of this Kenny vs Jane thing, but there's one of the best explanation of Jane's actions/Jane defence masterpost I've seen, and I've seen many.
Ok, here we go. I've been really reluctant to get into this debate that often, but since you prompted me I will. I'm mostly defending Jane h… moreere because well, you unfairly didn't at all, especially if you're trying to be "unbiased." However I will note that I am mad at Jane. Anyway... * cracks knuckles * Two main things, and then a bunch of nitpicks:
1) One detail that I never see anyone bring up anywhere, and will be relevant later in this post:
Skip to the end of the fight, when Kenny is bearing down on Jane with the knife to her chest.
Jane: Clem...help!
No one ever notices that Kenny has ALREADY SHALLOWLY STABBED HER ONCE IN THE CHEST before stabbing her a second time to finally kill her. Remember that red stain on her heart when she's standing by the car if you shot Kenny? That was where Kenny stabbed her once already, before killing her.
After she's stabbed once, Jane is about to die. She is on the verge of death. Now … [view original content]
keep in mind that how she left has thus been the most amicable of anyone leaving as well. she simply left with what she came with, after helping them escape carver's place, saving clem, and helping to fend off the walkers. overall she has helped, though she has kept an attitude of not caring (maybe she doesn't, we aren't in her head). bonnie and mike aren't exactly in the positive, heck few people have been as big of a help as jane (or kenny for that matter), and when she does leave (before she came back), she doesn't screw you over in the process (not many like that anymore).
I should clarify that I don't agree with Jane's actions either. I don't think her plan was right or justified in any sense. Just in case, si… morence you seem to believe I am defending it at points (if I'm just misunderstanding certain comments, no problem).
I do object to this argument:
Kenny never forced Mike and Bonnie to abandon the group. It was their choice. And it was Jane’s choice to scheme against Kenny by lying to him about AJ, and therefore, forced Kenny to overreact the way he did
Jane didn't force Kenny to attack. She didn't put him in a situation where his only option was to fight to save his or Clementine's life. Kenny is as responsible for attacking as Mike and Bonny are for leaving the group. Jane having an ulterior motive doesn't make her responsible for Kenny's actions. Kenny's behavior drove Mike and Bonnie away just as much as Jane's actions drove Kenny to attack. They presented a motive. Their actions in respo… [view original content]
I'm really suprised no one replied to this post yet. I usually try to stay out of this Kenny vs Jane thing, but there's one of the best explanation of Jane's actions/Jane defence masterpost I've seen, and I've seen many.
Kenny lost the little respect I had for him when he stoped attacking Jane then waited for her to put her blade away. Thats not blind rage. That thinking things out. He knew she had a slit upper hand and stoped attacking then only attacked after the women put the blade away
No problem; I'm glad I could help. And yes, it took a while haha. I was in the middle of writing my own analysis of the fight when I found this post, and was just not happy at how this one was one-sided when I was expecting it to be more neutral.
The fact is that Kenny showed his true colors in his ending of the game. Kenny showed everyone that he cheated in order to win that foot race to Wellington. Clementine could have easily won if he gave her an propitiate amount of time to get ready, but he just ran right past her without any heads up that he started the race till it was too late. Judging Kenny by any other actions throughout the game is completely pointless and stupid.
As for your first point about Jane being shallowly stabbed once when and only when you pick up the gun. That detail is IRRELEVANT when we look at the whole fight. As I have already pointed out, Jane made her INTENTION to kill Kenny when she slashed his stomach and chased after him outside. She even proclaims her intention to kill Kenny when Clem asks Jane to "back off" by saying "No, Clem. It’s time to put this crusty piece of shiz out of his misery". By making her intention to kill Kenny she made it clear that she WASN’T going to tell the truth about AJ as the fight had now become a fight to the death. For Jane to tell the truth at the "verge of death" would make no difference as all reasoning had now been left to the wayside. Both Jane and Kenny knew that when they were already at each other’s throats. You must also remember that the TWD game series is a game with limits and is confined to the parameters of the story. It can’t give us every possible choice that a person could make in this situation. Since it only gives us two choices, we can only deal with what has been presented to us. It’s pointless to start debating over hypothetical choices or over what the writer should have done.
As for your second point that Jane didn’t know that Kenny would try to kill her. I maintain that you are wrong. She did know that Kenny would try to kill her. Again it all goes back to Jane’s intention to kill him. The reason why I did not include that dialogue was not because it was an oversight, but rather because I did not see it as relevant enough to mention it. But since you brought it up, it’s clear that the reason why Jane gave Kenny the chance to leave was not because she didn’t know that Kenny would try to kill her, but because she had made it clear that she intended to kill Kenny if he did not leave. Why else would Jane so eagerly slash Kenny’s stomach (a fatal wound if Kenny was any closer to the knife) and then chase after him outside screaming bloody murder (THIS IS ALL YOUR F—ING FAULT) if not to try and kill him. When she had abandoned her original plan to let Clem decide to leave Kenny, she made up her mind to force Kenny to leave because if he didn’t then she would attempt to kill him. This is why Jane warned Kenny to leave, otherwise she would fight him to the death.
And no, the Kenny/Jane situation is not like the Carol/Lizzie situation. Lizzie was a mentally ill kid. And no matter how many times she was corrected, she never once recanted her delusions (ie. That walkers were people too) nor felt any regret over killing her little sister (which she committed in order to prove her delusions). Kenny on the other hand was not mentally ill. Whenever he made mistakes, he owned up to it, apologized and regretted his decisions, and realized he was being a jerk and overly violent. Like I said in my analysis, "Crazy people don’t know they’re crazy". Lizzie was an insane, mentally damaged girl. Kenny was not, he was merely suffering from the loss of his family and Sarita (this however does not justify his violent and abusive behavior, which he confessed to Clem that that was his issue)
As for your charge that I’m Pro-Kenny, You make the wild assumption that by me siding with Kenny I somehow agree that Kenny should have murdered Jane. NOWHERE do I ever say that Kenny was justified in murdering Jane. I’ll say emphatically KENNY IS A MURDERER for killing Jane, plain and simple. What you don’t seem to realize is that my argument never had to do with whether Kenny was justified in killing Jane. My argument had to do with Clementine and what SHE should have morally done in this situation. And the moral thing to do is to not get involved because if Clem had shot Kenny, she would have been the unknowing murderer of Kenny due to Jane’s deception. If Jane’s scheme was merely to show Kenny’s violent side and then reveal the truth about AJ and that Kenny still wouldn’t believe her, but instead attempt to murder her, then Clem is morally obligated to kill Kenny. But that is not the case. Jane had changed her plans into trying to MURDER Kenny. It would have been morally reprehensible for Clem to unknowingly be the tool in killing Kenny over Jane’s inability to do it herself because of her own deception.
As for the "theoretical concerns". What I was referring to was that those who chose to shoot Kenny did so because of the irrational fear that Kenny will lose his mind down the road and put Clem in danger. Simply because Jane forced that situation to happen through her deception does not validate that concern, as no one can know for sure whether Kenny would or would not lose his mind. As we have seen in this episode, Kenny was not a psychotic person, he knew he was screwing up and he promised to be better. A psychotic person would never admit that he has a problem.
As for Jane caring about AJ. Yes, I agree with you that down the road Jane would EVENTUALLY come to care for AJ. But my point still stands that during episode 5 she did not care for AJ because of her survivalist mindset and only made strides to care for AJ just for Clem’s sake and not her own because Clem was getting attached to AJ. Jane does show that she can change, I don’t deny that. But her personality has consistently stayed the same throughout episode 4 and 5, with Clem being her hope in changing (or else Clem becomes like her in the end in certain playthroughs)
As for my claim that "The reason why I bring up these flaws is that Kenny would never scheme to get rid of Jane because of her flaws. Therefore, Jane also should never have schemed against Kenny because of his flaws." My argument was never about Kenny and Jane being the same person nor that they should have done the same thing in this scenario, it was about Jane not being justified in plotting against Kenny simply because his flaws. In the same way, no one is justified in plotting to kill another simply because of their flaws.
As for Kenny saying "Look, I don't care two shits what you people think. I got this truck workin', so I say where we go, and we're headin' fuckin' north."
You do realize that the matter of where to go was not settled by Kenny. In fact, the whole group decided to deliberate about that in the morning. Of course that never happened because Mike and Bonnie back stabbed the group by abandoning them and taking everything they had. Mike had previously asked us to “talk some sense” into Kenny, to which Clem and Kenny had decided to try and CONVINCE the group to go North in the morning. But Clem and Kenny never got the opportunity to do so. Hence, Kenny did not force anyone to go north.
As for Kenny saying, "Tell you what, we can turn around just as soon as you pry this wheel from my cold, dead fingers. How’s that sound?" Remember that the reason why they are in the truck in the first place was because Mike and Bonnie had abandoned the group and took all their stuff and at the same time Clem was injured by Arvo. Therefore, Kenny and Jane needed to leave Arvo’s place immediately (there was nothing left there) and keep Clem warm with the truck’s heater. There was no time to discuss where to go until Clem had woken up. But we all know what happened next. Doesn’t matter who started the verbal spat, both began berating the other. Nonetheless, there was nothing keeping Jane from leaving Kenny, other than her affection for Clem. Thus, Kenny still did not force anyone to go with him up north. Jane chose to stay for Clem’s sake, despite her claim that she wanted to get out of the truck in order to avoid verbally fighting with Kenny.
Ok, here we go. I've been really reluctant to get into this debate that often, but since you prompted me I will. I'm mostly defending Jane h… moreere because well, you unfairly didn't at all, especially if you're trying to be "unbiased." However I will note that I am mad at Jane. Anyway... * cracks knuckles * Two main things, and then a bunch of nitpicks:
1) One detail that I never see anyone bring up anywhere, and will be relevant later in this post:
Skip to the end of the fight, when Kenny is bearing down on Jane with the knife to her chest.
Jane: Clem...help!
No one ever notices that Kenny has ALREADY SHALLOWLY STABBED HER ONCE IN THE CHEST before stabbing her a second time to finally kill her. Remember that red stain on her heart when she's standing by the car if you shot Kenny? That was where Kenny stabbed her once already, before killing her.
After she's stabbed once, Jane is about to die. She is on the verge of death. Now … [view original content]
You do realize that this was posted just yesterday, right? I have replied to this post to the best of my abilities and have found it wanting. Nonetheless, I enjoy hearing other peoples' opinions and perspectives
I'm really suprised no one replied to this post yet. I usually try to stay out of this Kenny vs Jane thing, but there's one of the best explanation of Jane's actions/Jane defence masterpost I've seen, and I've seen many.
Comments
Ok let put end of this, you did great. I'm not saying that Janne or Kenny are better both made mistakes
Frist to know
Kenny:
http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Kenny_(Video_Game)
Kenny is great and loyal guy he kill Larry lost family and "boat" after being beaten and lost an eye he enraged, then misfortune strikes again and hes lovely Sarita dies, now we have lost point for Kenny... but on the other hand he have Clemetine so no reason to get alarmed.
After the birth of AJ, Kenny see him as his own child that become an obsesion...
Let say Kenny is NOT become insane and is just semi-rational.
Janne:
http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Jane_(Video_Game)
We don't know much aboute she... the backstory that we know is Janne had sister and, was "stupid" as a kid and selfish is as adult... she see Clementine as a sister, taught her how to survive.
Janne is rational.
Janne may did love with Troy/Luke... R.I.P. Troy
Yeah... I love Kenny, I shot Kenny and I din't let him kill Janne and I forgive Janne.
So let's use our imagination:
It's not about whether Jane deserved to die or not. That was never the point. Kenny didn't deserve to die, just as much as Jane didn't deserve to die. Nonetheless, Jane and Jane alone should face up to the consequences of her own actions. Knowing full well that this was all Jane's scheme against Kenny, It would have been morally wrong to force Clem to to kill Kenny for the sake of Jane's own selfish desire to have Clem to herself. The guilt of murder should be on Kenny's head, not on Clementine, as she was completely innocent of the fight between Kenny and Jane.
It wouldn't be murder, if its done to save another it would be justifiable homicide. She doesn't look guilt ridden in either scenario really.
She was right, though. It didn't make sense because she didn't know Sarita at all, but she saw Kenny at his worst and that entailed screaming at Clementine, shocking Sarita with his savagery and then failing to put her out of her misery, and then flipping out on an unarmed cripple despite being repeatedly admonished for it.
Kenny becomes a lot more growly and brutal after Carver's beatdown, and I think the implication is that he must've got a little brain damage from that. Controlling his impulses becomes nigh-impossible for him, even if he was subconsciously aware that he'd done something wrong.
Or Kenny being a pretty damn good shot with his one eye.
Injuries in The Walking Dead tend to be there for cosmetic effect. It's why Clementine's doing fine despite not getting any medical treatment for being shot.
She never cared about Troy, seeing as she castrated him. But it did seem like she grew a little attached to Luke as well as Clem...
Forgive me if I didn't understand you very well. Your English isn't fluent enough.
Your hypotheticals don't really help your case that Jane didn't have to die, since none of your hypotheticals include the premeditated scheme against Kenny nor Jane's uncaring attitude toward AJ. In fact, it's because of these two things alone that Kenny had lost his senses and killed Jane.
So with your first hypothetical, Kenny would not attack Luke in the first place, since Kenny knows that Luke cared about Rebecca and the baby. But let's just theorize that Luke schemed against Kenny to provoke him into a fight. My conscious would still morally obligate me to not get involved, and therefore, let Kenny kill Luke, since this was Luke's own doing and Clem will not take part in the scheme to unknowingly murder Kenny. (And Luke is my favorite character).
As for your second hypothetical, Kenny would not attack Clementine either, since he knows that Clem loves AJ just as much as he does.
"Other than that, it is implied that possibly she, and Troy had made an agreement that the two would help each other to escape from the 'pen' of the community, through some sexual deals that she offered."
I went through the whole OP, and I have some objections to the "objectivity" claim.
First, you take everything Kenny says at face value, including what he thought motivated Jane, but disregard everything Jane says as lies. Kenny contradicts himself plenty.
For example, he claims after the fight that if she'd just explained things, it wouldn't have gone that far, but during the fight he doesn't press her for answers and he makes it clear that he isn't going to listen to anything she says. Besides, he didn't believe her when she said it was an accident, why would he believe her if she said he was still alive? And even in the dialog after the fight he confesses that he was seeing black and wasn't aware of what he was doing until it was too late. So why would he have listened to anything she said? He's just making excuses.
Also, he says he would never, ever hurt you, and that's factually wrong. If you try to stop him from hitting Arvo, he smacks you in the face. Look:
And even during the fight, while stabbing at Jane he causes you to fall and reopens your bullet wound. Yes, it's not "on purpose", he just wasn't paying attention to you. But that is the whole point, he's shown that he can be so blinded by his anger that he will in fact hurt you if you get in his way.
You also misrepresent Jane's motives. Jane doesn't want you "for herself". Her problem is not that she doesn't want to share you with Kenny. After all, she never tries to drive you away from Luke, Bonnie and Mike. She's worried that Kenny's anger issues will hurt you, as they've already proven to do. Aside from Kenny maybe hitting you (while you're freezing to death, if you fell in the lake), Clem was shot because of Kenny's anger issues. Why did Arvo have a gun? Because Mike and Bonnie can't stand being around him anymore, try to run away, and free him.
As she tells you, Jane had seen groups be torn apart by people like Kenny, and she is proven right when the group breaks apart because of Kenny. For all that Kenny claims to care about the survival of the group, he continually puts his feelings ahead of it. When they should have been leaving Carver's camp, instead of helping he wastes precious time beating Carver to death. When the entire group wants to head south, he refuses to listen.
As for his claim that he's trying to get better after the fact, that's just textbook abusive behavior. Look up any testimonies of abuse victims and you'll see that without exception the abuser always shows remorse. Even Sarita was starting to be afraid of Kenny, and unlike Jane she'd seen the best of him. After her death he lashes out at you, only to then apologize. Round and round it goes. He messes up, he apologizes, but he only gets worse.
I also find this interesting:
You claim that Jane developed a sister complex because Clem was the opposite of Jamie? That doesn't make any sense. A person doesn't replace a lost relative with someone that they see as completely different. If Jane was susceptible to developing any such issues, it would have been with Sarah, not Clem. Jane was over Jamie. It was painful for her to talk about, and it had added to the baggage that everyone had by that point. With everything she'd lived, it had made her more of a loner, but it didn't define her. She just genuinely liked and cared for Clem, and with her help she grows to trust people again.
If anyone had any complexes, it's the person that calls you by the name of his dead son, and that people ask not to be weird when the baby is born. The person that sees you as someone he has to protect, not as a person in your own right with opinions worth listening to.
Jane did make mistakes. First, setting up the whole situation in the first place. It would have been wrong even if no one died. Second, she underestimated Kenny, and she over estimated herself. She thought Kenny wouldn't go as far as trying to kill her, and she thought she would be able to stay cool enough to call it off once she'd made her point.
However, it's Kenny that initiated the fight. And while I could tell that something weird was going on, Kenny still had no reason to attack her. She wasn't a danger to anyone, they could have left her behind if they wanted to. No matter how angry someone makes you, you don't have a right to beat them up.
I would agree with you, if Jane had truly lost AJ and was not scheming against Kenny. Only then would I see it as morally necessary to interfere and shoot Kenny. But because the limits of the game and the parameters of the story, it gives us only two options, and therefore, I must side with letting Kenny kill Jane out of moral necessity, even though she doesn't deserve it. It's why my Clem was so angry at Kenny for what he did.
This is very clear and coherent analysis of the fight. Many people experienced conflicting emotions and made a choice they regret, I for one am glad that I kept a cool head and didn't shoot Kenny.
I'd also like to point out that the truck's windshield was broken from running over the walker, so AJ could have easily frozen to death or had a walker come crawling into the truck. Leaving the baby out there to prove a point is probably the stupidest and most immoral thing to happen in this series.
I have to agree. I liked your analysis on Jane, but you were blatantly favoring Kenny by not calling him out on his irrational behavior. Kenny is still responsible for murdering Jane (if it goes that far) plus many other events leading up to (and in) this episode. The reality is that both are in the wrong, are dangerous, and should be avoided. You can't justify Kenny's actions by Jane's wrongdoings. Kenny has been unstable all throughout season 2 and arguably, season 1.
pretty sure it was a different truck.
yeah i agree,some people say troy raped her and it doesn't make sense.
a very good analysis.
first though you interpret thoughts of jane for pulling out the knife. we don't know she meant to provoke a fight, though she pretty much had said early that he would beat a person to death. given that she felt he wouldn't be able to hold himself back, and would go into a rage, pulling the knife may have been purely defensive.
second she does hold back when she slashed him, as his guts aren't falling out (she didn't penetrate through the muscle holding in the guts, and he still had use of his chest muscle so that wasn't cut through either).
third she follows him right after getting choked (arm across the throat while pressed against the door) and probably wasn't thinking too straight (fight or flight mode).
given the level of regret he shows, we can see that he knows he has issues, however he also tends to justify his actions. this is what abusive people tend to do (it is rare for them not to show remorse). he is definitely losing it, and she is definitely a manipulator.
if you read the options given to you when you talk to her after the fight, there isn't a forgive her option. one of them is to admit that he was losing it (she was right), but that is hardly the same as forgiveness.
as for kenny showing regret at any point for beating on arvo, it doesn't always happen on all playthroughs (it didn't on mine). jane saw what everyone else saw, but she didn't hand a gun to the guy that tried to get everyone killed for getting his weapon taken from him when he threatened a little girl with it, steal all the supplies, steal the truck which they couldn't get working on their own (and even thought it was a lost cause), and leave a girl for dead after getting her shot.
if you looked at the choice as 'who do i kill' the decision gets very hard. if you look at it as 'getting involved' the decision gets easier, at least from a pure logic perspective.
Thanks for your comment,
Before I respond to your claims, I want to make it clear that my “moral objectivity” argument is separate from my analysis of Kenny’s justification over killing Jane. My moral objectivity argument stands apart from Kenny’s “excuses”.
Your assertion that Kenny would not listen to Jane even if she told the truth is groundless because you have nothing to base that on except speculation. I will admit though that you and I can never be sure whether Kenny would listen to Jane or not if she told the truth. We’ll never know because Jane never did tell the truth during the fight nor did she want to, as it became clear that Jane wanted Kenny dead. Therefore, I can only go by what Kenny claims he would do if Jane told the truth. And just because Kenny said that “everything went black”, doesn’t mean that he lost the mental capacity to hear people out. Kenny clearly heard both Clem’s plight to stop fighting and Jane’s threats to kill him and was able to respond back, negatively of course, but nonetheless he could clearly listen to what Jane and Clem were saying during the fight. Sadly the only thing that Kenny never heard was the truth from Jane.
As for your assertion that Kenny would hurt anybody if they got in his way, you completely misunderstood Kenny. When he said, “I’d never, ever hurt you” to Clem. He meant purposefully, which you rightly point out, but you twist his words to mean that Kenny would never hurt Clem in general. I already know of that scene where Kenny accidently elbows Clem on the nose when he’s beating up on Arvo, but you have not proven your point that Kenny contradicts himself.
As for me misrepresenting Jane. When I said that Jane wanted Clem for herself, I didn’t mean that she didn’t want to share Clem with anyone. I meant that she perceived Kenny as a threat to her bond with Clem and thought that she needed to get rid of Kenny for Clem’s safety and supposed freedom, despite Clem having a close friendship with Kenny.
And Kenny’s anger issues may have led the events to Arvo shooting Clementine, but it was NOT Kenny’s anger issues that motivated Arvo to shoot Clementine. Even if you were really nice to Arvo and defended him from Kenny he would always give you a nasty look. And why is that? Because it was Clementine who killed his zombified sister. So we can say that Kenny’s anger issues was the reason as to HOW it led Arvo to shoot Clementine, but it’s certainly not the reason WHY Arvo shot Clementine.
And certainly Kenny was partly to blame for the group splitting up. But the consequences of the betrayal of Bonnie and Mike is on them, not Kenny. Every action one takes is their own and cannot be blamed on another. Bonnie and Mike made their choice to abandon the group out of fear and that guilt is their own.
And I will not defend Kenny’s increasingly abusive behavior. However, that does not mean Kenny is lying when he says he’s trying to be better. The aftermath of the fight and during the ending at Wellington is proof of that. Abusive people who have promised to get better and have broken those promises are not to be discarded as unsavable because there are always those people who have been abusive for years, but then became reformed. Giving up on the abusive person only adds to that person’s abusive behavior.
And for me, Jane did seem like she was developing a sister-complex, not because Clem was the opposite of Jamie, but because Jane never saw Jaime as a sister. Remember when she was talking about her sister in Ep. 4 she said that she was mean to Jaime and didn’t know why she would act that way, and when they would go to the Carnival she would pretend to be “friends” with Jaime and not sisters because no one knew them there (but I don’t want people to misunderstand me, that just because Jane viewed Jaime as a friend doesn’t mean that she didn’t love her. Jane certainly loved her sister and saved her so many times until Jaime completely gave up). However, when it came to Clem, she saw in her someone just like her (strong, independent, brave, able to face reality, resourceful, etc.). She saw Clem as the sister that she never had. And because of that she became overprotective of her when Kenny began to be more aggressive in his behavior.
Now I don’t think Kenny saw Clem as a Duck substitute, rather, when he referred Clem as Duck, it was because he still couldn’t let go of the fact that his family was gone. However, when Kenny became attached to AJ, to me he did seem to view him as a replacement to Duck.
And I beg to differ, that Jane didn’t know that Kenny would go so far as to kill her. Her own dialogue after Kenny said he was going to kill her (“I knew you would”) is proof that she knew very well that Kenny would try to kill her. I do believe she thought she could beat Kenny, which is why she intended to kill him, but unfortunately it didn’t turn out in her favor.
And I agree with you that Kenny should never have overreacted and attack Jane, but none of this would have happened if she did not scheme to provoke him to a fight by lying about AJ and pushing him over the edge.
Kenny isn't the only one who has lost family. What makes him so special? And if he would've stopped if Jane said the baby was alive, why wouldn't he listen to Clementine. Oh wait..
Kenny fucks up
IM SORRY CLEM, ILL BE DIFFERENT NEXT TIME
CLEM: Aww K!
REPEAT
And certainly Kenny was partly to blame for the group splitting up.... Partly? Mike even says they can't stand Kenny anymore. So, how is that partly?
I actually did call Kenny out on his irrational behavior. He had lost his senses, was not willing to hear Jane out when Clem requested that of him, and became overwhelmed by thoughts of AJ's death at the hands of Jane. But again, Kenny's irrational behavior is exactly what Jane wanted to happen as she had schemed to do from the beginning in order to get Kenny out of the picture. Both Kenny and Jane were in the wrong, no doubt. But again, when it comes to Clementine, was it morally right for her to get involved and kill Kenny, knowing full well that this was Jane's own deception? The responsibility and guilt must lay on those who are involved, and that is Kenny and Jane, not Clementine.
tell me the part you don't understand...
if you let Kenny kill Luke you are scumbag...
and yeah maybe he won't attack Clemetine...
but still after Janne put back knife all got clear... I almost let Kenny kill someone again event him say
)
Kenny "Clem.. You made the right choice..."
I sad Kenny scare Mike...
The first hythetical you gave me, I already answered, Kenny wouldn't kill Luke.
Kenny knew very well he was in the wrong in trying to murder Jane and that's why he said that Clementine made the right decision in shooting him, which I would have agreed with him had it not been for the fact that Jane schemed against Kenny in the first place and lied about AJ in order to make him lose his mind.
Thank you for such a careful reply. Most people don't bother to read through a whole post before replying, but you clearly did.
I don't think we'll come to an agreement over whether Kenny would or would not have stopped. It sounds to me as an excuse. I'm not saying he's lying, simply that he felt guilty and wanted to rationalize his actions after the fact. Considering his own description of how he felt, it doesn't sound like he'd have been able to stop himself.
As for Kenny saying he'd never hurt Clem, I did not mean to twist his words. No one, not even Jane, makes the claim that he'd ever hurt Clem on purpose. Saying "I'd never hurt you on purpose" is pointless because no one claimed that he would. The problem is that Kenny is careless, and when he gets angry he stops thinking about Clem's safety. And he's angry a lot. This creates pointlessly dangerous situations. An effective caretaker minimizes dangerous situations, because the best way to avoid someone coming to harm is to prevent them from being in danger in the first place. Kenny exacerbates every situation: in the lodge he fights Carver's group, which gets Walter and potentially Alvin killed. In the truck he frees himself and plans on jumping their more numerous and better armed captors. He makes enemies out of his friends by being needlessly violent to their captive. And he antagonizes Jane when all that's left of the group is AJ, Clem, Jane and himself. He doesn't care that a bigger group is safer for Clem to be in, he tears the group apart being angry.
Ben never wanted to hurt anyone either, and he doesn't purposefully hurt anyone, but Kenny still blames him for his family's death. Intentions don't matter when the consequences come back to bite you.
Seeing as you're reluctant to read too much into what Kenny says and take him at face value, and argue that there's no way to tell whether he really would have stopped, I'd like you to offer some more compelling evidence for the claim that "[Jane] perceived Kenny as a threat to her bond with Clem". There's no evidence given for this. Jane is clear, and states several times, that she's afraid of Kenny getting Clem killed. In so far as her bond with Clem requires that Clem be alive, you'd be right, but you clearly don't mean it that way.
I never claimed that Kenny's repeated abuse made Arvo want to kill Clem. I agree with you that Arvo was angry at Clem for shooting Natasha (possibly not aware that Natasha was a walker when she did). But this goes back to the point of how you protect people. Fighting off immediate threats is necessary, but avoiding a dangerous situation is better. Kenny is willing to fight off immediate threats, but he can't help but create needless dangerous situations, because he refuses to think about consequences. Even if Arvo hated Clementine, he couldn't have shot her if he'd been tied up. And he'd been tied up if Mike hadn't feared for his safety.
Arvo is the person ultimately responsible, sure. He's the one that pulled the trigger. But Kenny was not very good at protecting Clem from Arvo. If he'd treated Arvo better, and been more calm when dealing with Mike, he'd have done a better job of protecting Clem. He chose to act in a way that strained the relationships in the group, for no reason other than he felt better when hurting a defenseless kid. When those relationships are what keep you safe at night, straining those relationships puts the people you claim to be protecting at risk.
Also, you use something of a double standard here. You claim that "Every action one takes is their own and cannot be blamed on another," and I agree with you, but then you argue that "Kenny should never have overreacted and attack Jane, but none of this would have happened if she did not scheme to provoke him to a fight." You can't claim that Clem getting shot is on Mike and Bonnie but that Kenny can be forgiven because of Jane's manipulation.
Kenny forced Mike and Bonnie to flee just as surely as Jane pushed Kenny to fight. He may not have been aware that he was doing it, but again, that's the point. Kenny is dangerous because he refuses to think about how his actions affect others.
As for Jane's treatment of Jamie, that's actually a normal relationship between siblings when growing up. Generally, siblings will be united against the outside, but tear at each other in private. In a sense you adopt the position that you're the only one allowed to hurt your siblings. It's relatively healthy behavior. Notice that even though she was dumb as a kid, her sister loved her (she had to punish her for trusting her), and she dragged her around until she physically could not save her. And for all her tough exterior, she still suffers for not being able to save her. The loner outlook was just the way she coped and avoided being hurt again.
Finally, when she says "I knew you would", I don't think that means she knew Kenny would try to kill her for this particular plan. I think she meant it in the more general way that she knew that being with Kenny would be the death of her. Which is why she wanted to leave him in the first place. She messed up with this plan, but she wasn't planning on having a fight to the death just then.
Absolutely a different vehicle, the car was right next to the rest stop, the truck was a mile away.
Good point.
I guess there's only so much realism that can be incorporated into a videogame.
Still, I think there are some areas that telltale could've improved on.
Like for example, back at the drugstore Lee had a rifle, and yet when he's shown looking for a way up on top of the trailer, he doesn't have it.
Why not just show him hanging it over his shoulder by a shoulder strap?
According to some folks, there were sound files that made it more explicit that Troy was being sexually aggressive towards her. I don't know why that was cut out as it made a lot of people think that Jane was just a castrating bitch, even though it's made abundantly clear by how he abuses two underage girls that he's probably not as suave with the ladies as Luke would be.
Ok, here we go. I've been really reluctant to get into this debate that often, but since you prompted me I will. I'm mostly defending Jane here because well, you unfairly didn't at all, especially if you're trying to be "unbiased." However I will note that I am mad at Jane. Anyway... * cracks knuckles * Two main things, and then a bunch of nitpicks:
1) One detail that I never see anyone bring up anywhere, and will be relevant later in this post:
Skip to the end of the fight, when Kenny is bearing down on Jane with the knife to her chest.
Jane: Clem...help!
No one ever notices that Kenny has ALREADY SHALLOWLY STABBED HER ONCE IN THE CHEST before stabbing her a second time to finally kill her. Remember that red stain on her heart when she's standing by the car if you shot Kenny? That was where Kenny stabbed her once already, before killing her.
After she's stabbed once, Jane is about to die. She is on the verge of death. Now remember Jane is a survivor. It makes no sense for her to not confess about AJ if she's on the brink of death, stabbed once already close to her heart, even if she thinks Kenny won't believe her. Confessing would've prompted Clem to help her, no doubt. Why would Jane give up so easily to die and leave Clem alone with Kenny? (The whole reason she's fighting is to not leave Clem alone with Kenny!) It makes no sense. The only thing I can think of is she's numb with terror and about to die and just not thinking straight. But living in the ZA, Jane must be on the verge of death all the time. Everybody is. Imo it was the writers just making her stupid/scared on purpose so that Clem won't automatically try to save Jane, and so the final big game choice would be preserved. Anyway whether or not it's bad writing, this detail is important.
2) Jane didn't want to kill Kenny until later. I maintain that she didn't know Kenny would try to kill her; I know you say differently but let me explain.
I do realize that when Kenny says near the end, "I'll kill you!" Jane says, "I knew you would!" Supposedly from this statement she knew that Kenny would kill her from the start. But I don't think she knew for sure that he would kill her, from the beginning of the fight.
Jane didn't intend to kill Kenny or have him dead at first, like you said. At one point, she says, "Just go," to him (dialogue from the silent playthrough which you've also excluded I've noticed, though it was probably just an oversight. It looks like you did take most dialogue into account though.) That interaction goes like this, when they first step outside:
Jane: Just go.
Kenny: I ain’t goin’ nowhere.
Jane: Fine. [Jane charges Kenny with the knife.]
She didn't know Kenny would kill her for sure; she gave him the chance to leave and not hurt anyone. It's pretty clear to me from the dialogue above that Jane has made the decision to end Kenny when, and only when, he has decided not to leave, though she wasn't planning on killing him before. If Clem goes between them immediately, we don't hear this "Just go" interaction. It is also at this point that Jane probably knows that Kenny would try to kill her. Before the "Just go" interaction, Kenny says, "You’re fuckin’ DEAD!" (he says this right before Jane gets him in the stomach, though you may have to wait for him to say it) indicating Kenny plans to kill Jane before Jane ever verbally indicated she would kill him. Some time after he threatens to kill her and after Kenny says he won't leave, Jane says, "It's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery." She only says this quote after Kenny indicates he's not leaving.
I think shooting Kenny is very akin to the Carol/Lizzie scene from the show. (Spoilers for the tv show; I know OP has watched the show though bc I read your entire post.) The basics are that a dangerous mentally-disturbed person has to leave the group because of their dangerous actions. Since there are no mental hospitals or therapy available in TWD universe, there are only so many options to carry this out. Lizzie, a child, killed her sister and was ready to welcome her back as a walker. After much debate Carol knew the best course of action was to kill Lizzie, because the girl wasn't safe to be around other people. Similarly, Kenny was on the verge of committing murder if you shot him. As indicated in 1), he had stabbed the knife into Jane's chest once before finally killing her, so we know that he was going to kill Jane, even without hindsight. In this case, we're stopping Kenny before he does commit murder.
3) You language is unnecessarily pro-Kenny for being "unbiased."
Yes Jane does manipulate the situation, and she certainly instigated it. But to say the "whole situation is still Jane's fault" is I think a bit extreme.
You keep saying Kenny was manipulated into killing Jane. Sure he was. But a manipulated person still shouldn't have to commit murder. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're crazy, or if you've been pushed to your limits. I don't even care if you're Lee. Even if you're a parent whose child has been killed, MURDER is still NOT justified, especially if you have no evidence. You may feel like you need to kill someone who might've killed your kid, but you don't act on it in a violent manner. Killing him on the other hand in Self Defense of Others after evidence has been gathered is different.
Kenny did have to be killed because he was going to commit murder; the evidence was right in front of us. He had already stabbed Jane once as stated in 1) and was going to do it again. He had proven himself to be dangerous.
You also say about shooting Kenny, "Essentially, it's not based on practical concerns, but rather irrational theoretical concerns." You're arguing here about "theoretical concerns." But this situation wasn't theoretical although it was staged. Kenny did irrationally try to kill Jane even when she said it was an accident.
You don't know that Jane would never care for AJ. She was worried that Clem was getting attached to the baby, because let's face it, it's not gonna be easy to keep him alive, and if he dies, it's gonna hit Clem harder the more attached she is to him. That's Jane's philosophy in a nutshell: don't get attached to people because once you lose them, there's too much pain. That may be why Jane herself tried not to get attached to AJ and referred to him as "it." It's true that Jane would probably have never willingly gotten into a situation where she'd have to care for a baby, but she's not so heartless to not care for it. She suggests they go back to Howe's for the baby formula, remember? Sure it was probably also the best shelter she could think of, but logically speaking Jane was right. If Kenny and Clem had tried to find Wellington through trial and error, it might've taken them a lot longer to find compared to Howe's, but they were just lucky. cough bad writing cough Also they were more sure Howe's had baby formula than Wellington (they weren't even sure at that point if Wellington even existed.)
This is not an argument. Kenny and Jane aren't the same person so they won't have the same actions in the same scenario.
Uhh... "Look, I don't care two shits what you people think. I got this truck workin', so I say where we go, and we're headin' fuckin' north."
“Tell you what, we can turn around just as soon as you pry this wheel from my cold, dead fingers. How’s that sound?” He said it himself, ladies and gentlemen. You have to kill Kenny if you disagree with him. And he wasn’t exaggerating. You know, next I could say that Jane had no choice at this point but to formulate some plan to leave Kenny with Clem. But you know what? The next thing Jane says is, "Whatever, I give up.” Implying that she’d go along with Kenny just to keep him calm. Yes, this could’ve been a lie. But at this point she’s not escalating the fight.
Thanks for the response
As for Kenny not being able to stop himself. That’s’ really a non-issue, since we’ll never know for sure because Jane never told the truth. The more important issue is not whether Kenny would be able to stop himself, but that Jane never attempted to stop the fight as she had originally planned since she had already proven her point. Jane had made up her mind to kill Kenny and there was nothing Clem could do to stop both Kenny and Jane.
And I agree with you that Kenny was careless, made thoughtless and rash decisions, and was becoming increasingly violent, therefore, putting the group in danger. I never once tried justifying Kenny’s violent behavior as something morally right or as something I can just ignore. Though I would disagree with you that Kenny didn’t care that being in a bigger group was safer for Clem. He most certainly did, but his abusive actions had unintentionally driven the group apart. Yet, what Jane supporters don’t understand is that, when it comes to the Kenny/Jane fight, his violent behavior is beside the point. It was Jane who had the evil intention of using Kenny’s violent behavior against him in order to try and justify her attempt at murdering him.
You brought up Ben. And he is perfect in illustrating my point. Ben’s clumsiness and poor judgement had unintentionally put the group in danger and resulted in people dying and because of this Kenny wanted him dead, but simply because of a person’s flaws does not justify anyone wanting that person dead (or at least gone from the group). This is why I stood up for Ben against Kenny. In the same way, Kenny’s anger issues had unintentionally put the group in danger and divided the group, but that alone did not give Jane the right to scheme against him and attempt to murder him.
People keep pointing out the fact that Jane “knew” the group was going to collapse because she’s “seen it happen before”. What they don’t realize is that people like Jane also contribute to the group collapsing. Mistrust, viewing others in a negative light, giving up on those you deem “hopeless” (example, her willingness to leave Sarah and her unwillingness to save her at the deck), berating those that antagonize you (the verbal fight in the truck). This kind of behavior leads to groups splitting apart. The difference between Kenny and Jane is that while Kenny’s abusive behavior had unintentionally led to the group falling apart, Jane had the INTENTION of dividing what was left of the group by turning on Kenny and putting AJ in danger and using Clem as a tool in her scheme to get rid of Kenny by forcing her to finish off Kenny when she herself couldn’t. You say that intentions don’t matter when it comes to the consequences, but when it comes to doing what is morally right intentions do matter.
As for you wanting evidence for Kenny being a threat to Jane’s bond with Clem. In episode 5, we see the conflict between Jane and Kenny begin when she returns and all the way through the episode. Kenny clearly sees Jane as a bad influence on Clem when he criticizes her for stealing Arvo’s supplies (if your Clem chose to steal the supplies) and putting the group in danger because of it. Kenny also doesn’t like it when Jane convinces Clem to drink alcohol (if you chose to drink the rum) and points that out. He even gives her a nasty look when Jane is left to take care of the baby by herself at Arvo’s place (since he doesn’t trust her with the baby (for good reason as I point out in my analysis) and asks Clem what Jane was saying behind his back, which he assumes this of course, and he views Jane as person who shows no respect and cares for no one. Jane on the other hand views Kenny as a bad influence on Clem too, as she points out Kenny’s increasingly violent behavior, and his arrogant “my way or the highway” attitude and unwillingness to listen to others. She also wants Clem to live “free” and sees Kenny as someone who’s controlling Clem’s thoughts and decisions (and if you side with Kenny in the truck at the end she’ll say “You’re just like him”, but I also want to add that Kenny charges Jane with the same thing that she’s controlling Clem’s thoughts and decisions.) It becomes clear that Kenny and Jane are battling for Clem to be on their side. Because of this Jane views Kenny as a threat to her bond with Clem and schemes against Kenny so she can keep Clem safe from him. Hopefully this satisfies you. If not, then agree to disagree.
As for Arvo shooting Clem, again bringing up the blame game does not justify Jane’s scheme to get rid of Kenny. Mike and Bonnie have just as much guilt on their heads as Kenny does. Remember that Mike and Bonnie were never forced into abandoning the group, they chose to leave behind everyone and take all their stuff (leaving them to die essentially) simply because of their irrational fear of Kenny. As Jane herself ponted out, “I don’t think they knew what they were doing”.
As for your charge that I use double standards in regards to Kenny and Jane. Not once did I argue that Kenny could be forgiven for killing Jane simply because she schemed against him. My whole argument revolves around Clementine and what she should do in this situation. Kenny and Jane are to blame for whatever happens in the fight, but that does not mean that Clementine should dirty her hands and conscience over this debacle. Kenny is a murderer for killing Jane plain and simple. Unfortunately, this was the consequences of Jane’s own deception. It would be morally reprehensible for Clementine to be the unknowing murderer for killing Kenny due to Jane’s deception.
And again you bring up Kenny’s violent behavior, which as I have already said is beside the point when we fully know that this was Jane’s own doing. As I said, Kenny never forced Mike and Bonnie to abandon the group. It was their choice. And it was Jane’s choice to scheme against Kenny by lying to him about AJ, and therefore, forced Kenny to overreact the way he did, knowing full well that that’s what Jane wanted to happen.
And you might be right about Jane’s behavior towards Jaime. Maybe I was reading too much into it. But I still believe that Jane’s affection for Clementine, and ONLY for Clementine, seems suspect. She made strides to change and work with the group, but only for Clem’s sake and not her own. The only one she truly cared about was Clem and no one else, not even AJ (Even when Clem attempts to make her care about AJ, she still didn’t view AJ as a person, instead she kept calling him “it”). This is why I believe she developed a sister-complex. And her overprotectiveness of Clem led her to do something really foolish.
As for your interpretation of Jane’s dialogue “I knew you would”. It’s pretty obvious to me that she meant she knew Kenny would try to kill her, not that he would be the death of her. It’s pretty much established way before the fight that she believed Kenny’s violent behavior would be the death of her. But it’s exactly that belief that she was banking on, that Kenny would indeed overreact to the point of actually wanting to kill her. The moment she made her intention to kill Kenny was the moment she knew the fight would be to the death, and that’s why when Kenny said “I’ll kill you” she responded to his statement by saying “I knew you would”.
simple answer...jane and kenny are correct....no more contradiction.
I should clarify that I don't agree with Jane's actions either. I don't think her plan was right or justified in any sense. Just in case, since you seem to believe I am defending it at points (if I'm just misunderstanding certain comments, no problem).
I do object to this argument:
Jane didn't force Kenny to attack. She didn't put him in a situation where his only option was to fight to save his or Clementine's life. Kenny is as responsible for attacking as Mike and Bonny are for leaving the group. Jane having an ulterior motive doesn't make her responsible for Kenny's actions. Kenny's behavior drove Mike and Bonnie away just as much as Jane's actions drove Kenny to attack. They presented a motive. Their actions in response to that is on them.
This is what I mean by double standard, you claim that people are responsible for their actions, except in Kenny's case where Jane is responsible for his actions. Saying that it was Kenny's choice to attack doesn't mean that Jane was right to do what she did, it's simply a matter of applying the same standards to everyone.
If we allow for Jane to be responsible for Kenny's actions, then we can go further back and note that Kenny wouldn't allow Jane to go. In the car she asks to be let out because she can't stand being with Kenny anymore and he mocks her and doesn't let her get out of the car. Which explains Jane talking about being free. So we can say Kenny is responsible for Jane's actions after that point, and then go back to how they were both sniping at each other, and so on ad infinitum.
Since that makes any argument pointless (it all comes down to the way things happened in the beginning of the universe and no one is responsible for anything), we have to come down on the side that people are responsible for their actions, regardless of what other people are doing around them, and it's how they react that determines if they were right to do something.
Jane was wrong to put Kenny in the situation of thinking AJ was dead. We disagree on her motivation, I don't think she intended for him to reach the point where he tried to kill her. I don't think she intended for her herself to try to kill Kenny, much less to put Clem in that situation. Kenny was also wrong for attacking when he had better alternatives (attacking as a last resort or when someone is threatening you, or even preemptively if you know for a fact that someone is about to, can be justified).
You actually kind of show the opposite, that Kenny was feeling his bond with Clem threatened by Jane. It's true that they were both trying to undermine the other, but during the scene at the house, while Kenny was fixing the truck, you can see that Jane isn't resentful of Kenny. She doesn't show animosity towards him. In short, she shows no sign of seeing Kenny as a threat to their relationship. She says that he is a good guy, but he's losing it. It's not that she doesn't like Kenny, she is trying to open Clem's eyes to the fact that even people you like can be dangerous.
Kenny, on the other hand, is paranoid. He asks what you were talking about with Jane, and tells you how someone ought to teach her "respect" (which is his way of saying that he'd like "someone" to beat her up so she learns her place, as if respect was something you took from someone instead of something earned. Sorry about the lengthy aside, but his comment there really bugged me). If anyone is feeling threatened, it's Kenny.
I think she didn't want to care, and presented a cold front, but she did care for Luke. Which I think is part of why she left in the first place. If you tell her after the lake that Luke cared for her too, she cries and is clearly affected. I find Jane compelling as a character because of this dynamic. She cares about people, even though she doesn't want to. She presents a cold, lone wolf persona, but she forms attachments to people. Kenny (and many people in this forum) can't seem to see past the way she presents herself, but her actions clearly show that she does care.
The way she acts around Sarah is an interesting example. People complain about how she's out for herself, but she's second only to Clem in trying to save her. It's true that she argues against saving her at the trailer, but I didn't hear Luke arguing against her. His rib was bruised but he could still have said something. Personally, I think Luke had given up on Sarah after spending hours trying to get to her. But it's always Jane that is accused of not caring.
Later, at the deck, Jane can be convinced to actually drop down to try to save Sarah. Yes, she needs cajoling, but I would point out that Mike could have easily dropped down and helped Sarah get out from under the rubble (he's shown to be stronger than the girls, and it would have been easier between two people, one lifts the rubble and the other pulls Sarah out), but no one complained about him not doing anything. If Jane really didn't care about Sarah, she wouldn't have dropped down. Even if she cared about Clem and Clem's opinion of her, that's not enough for someone to just put their lives at risk. Luke was arguing against Jane helping Sarah, and he wouldn't have been the one putting himself at risk.
Jane left because she cared about people, not because she didn't. Because she's lost a lot of people she cared about, and she didn't want to lose more people she cared about, and the easiest way to do that is to leave. Because despite her efforts she couldn't stop herself from caring.
I'm really suprised no one replied to this post yet. I usually try to stay out of this Kenny vs Jane thing, but there's one of the best explanation of Jane's actions/Jane defence masterpost I've seen, and I've seen many.
keep in mind that how she left has thus been the most amicable of anyone leaving as well. she simply left with what she came with, after helping them escape carver's place, saving clem, and helping to fend off the walkers. overall she has helped, though she has kept an attitude of not caring (maybe she doesn't, we aren't in her head). bonnie and mike aren't exactly in the positive, heck few people have been as big of a help as jane (or kenny for that matter), and when she does leave (before she came back), she doesn't screw you over in the process (not many like that anymore).
Yeah you're right
Great read...i read it all....
Wow, thank you fallandir. ^.^ I didn't realize it was that good lol.
Kenny lost the little respect I had for him when he stoped attacking Jane then waited for her to put her blade away. Thats not blind rage. That thinking things out. He knew she had a slit upper hand and stoped attacking then only attacked after the women put the blade away
You kinda cleaned up my thoughts about Jane, thanks for that. It sure took some time to summarize all of this. :>
No problem; I'm glad I could help.
And yes, it took a while haha. I was in the middle of writing my own analysis of the fight when I found this post, and was just not happy at how this one was one-sided when I was expecting it to be more neutral.
The fact is that Kenny showed his true colors in his ending of the game. Kenny showed everyone that he cheated in order to win that foot race to Wellington. Clementine could have easily won if he gave her an propitiate amount of time to get ready, but he just ran right past her without any heads up that he started the race till it was too late. Judging Kenny by any other actions throughout the game is completely pointless and stupid.
Thank you for your comment
As for your first point about Jane being shallowly stabbed once when and only when you pick up the gun. That detail is IRRELEVANT when we look at the whole fight. As I have already pointed out, Jane made her INTENTION to kill Kenny when she slashed his stomach and chased after him outside. She even proclaims her intention to kill Kenny when Clem asks Jane to "back off" by saying "No, Clem. It’s time to put this crusty piece of shiz out of his misery". By making her intention to kill Kenny she made it clear that she WASN’T going to tell the truth about AJ as the fight had now become a fight to the death. For Jane to tell the truth at the "verge of death" would make no difference as all reasoning had now been left to the wayside. Both Jane and Kenny knew that when they were already at each other’s throats. You must also remember that the TWD game series is a game with limits and is confined to the parameters of the story. It can’t give us every possible choice that a person could make in this situation. Since it only gives us two choices, we can only deal with what has been presented to us. It’s pointless to start debating over hypothetical choices or over what the writer should have done.
As for your second point that Jane didn’t know that Kenny would try to kill her. I maintain that you are wrong. She did know that Kenny would try to kill her. Again it all goes back to Jane’s intention to kill him. The reason why I did not include that dialogue was not because it was an oversight, but rather because I did not see it as relevant enough to mention it. But since you brought it up, it’s clear that the reason why Jane gave Kenny the chance to leave was not because she didn’t know that Kenny would try to kill her, but because she had made it clear that she intended to kill Kenny if he did not leave. Why else would Jane so eagerly slash Kenny’s stomach (a fatal wound if Kenny was any closer to the knife) and then chase after him outside screaming bloody murder (THIS IS ALL YOUR F—ING FAULT) if not to try and kill him. When she had abandoned her original plan to let Clem decide to leave Kenny, she made up her mind to force Kenny to leave because if he didn’t then she would attempt to kill him. This is why Jane warned Kenny to leave, otherwise she would fight him to the death.
And no, the Kenny/Jane situation is not like the Carol/Lizzie situation. Lizzie was a mentally ill kid. And no matter how many times she was corrected, she never once recanted her delusions (ie. That walkers were people too) nor felt any regret over killing her little sister (which she committed in order to prove her delusions). Kenny on the other hand was not mentally ill. Whenever he made mistakes, he owned up to it, apologized and regretted his decisions, and realized he was being a jerk and overly violent. Like I said in my analysis, "Crazy people don’t know they’re crazy". Lizzie was an insane, mentally damaged girl. Kenny was not, he was merely suffering from the loss of his family and Sarita (this however does not justify his violent and abusive behavior, which he confessed to Clem that that was his issue)
As for your charge that I’m Pro-Kenny, You make the wild assumption that by me siding with Kenny I somehow agree that Kenny should have murdered Jane. NOWHERE do I ever say that Kenny was justified in murdering Jane. I’ll say emphatically KENNY IS A MURDERER for killing Jane, plain and simple. What you don’t seem to realize is that my argument never had to do with whether Kenny was justified in killing Jane. My argument had to do with Clementine and what SHE should have morally done in this situation. And the moral thing to do is to not get involved because if Clem had shot Kenny, she would have been the unknowing murderer of Kenny due to Jane’s deception. If Jane’s scheme was merely to show Kenny’s violent side and then reveal the truth about AJ and that Kenny still wouldn’t believe her, but instead attempt to murder her, then Clem is morally obligated to kill Kenny. But that is not the case. Jane had changed her plans into trying to MURDER Kenny. It would have been morally reprehensible for Clem to unknowingly be the tool in killing Kenny over Jane’s inability to do it herself because of her own deception.
As for the "theoretical concerns". What I was referring to was that those who chose to shoot Kenny did so because of the irrational fear that Kenny will lose his mind down the road and put Clem in danger. Simply because Jane forced that situation to happen through her deception does not validate that concern, as no one can know for sure whether Kenny would or would not lose his mind. As we have seen in this episode, Kenny was not a psychotic person, he knew he was screwing up and he promised to be better. A psychotic person would never admit that he has a problem.
As for Jane caring about AJ. Yes, I agree with you that down the road Jane would EVENTUALLY come to care for AJ. But my point still stands that during episode 5 she did not care for AJ because of her survivalist mindset and only made strides to care for AJ just for Clem’s sake and not her own because Clem was getting attached to AJ. Jane does show that she can change, I don’t deny that. But her personality has consistently stayed the same throughout episode 4 and 5, with Clem being her hope in changing (or else Clem becomes like her in the end in certain playthroughs)
As for my claim that "The reason why I bring up these flaws is that Kenny would never scheme to get rid of Jane because of her flaws. Therefore, Jane also should never have schemed against Kenny because of his flaws." My argument was never about Kenny and Jane being the same person nor that they should have done the same thing in this scenario, it was about Jane not being justified in plotting against Kenny simply because his flaws. In the same way, no one is justified in plotting to kill another simply because of their flaws.
As for Kenny saying "Look, I don't care two shits what you people think. I got this truck workin', so I say where we go, and we're headin' fuckin' north."
You do realize that the matter of where to go was not settled by Kenny. In fact, the whole group decided to deliberate about that in the morning. Of course that never happened because Mike and Bonnie back stabbed the group by abandoning them and taking everything they had. Mike had previously asked us to “talk some sense” into Kenny, to which Clem and Kenny had decided to try and CONVINCE the group to go North in the morning. But Clem and Kenny never got the opportunity to do so. Hence, Kenny did not force anyone to go north.
As for Kenny saying, "Tell you what, we can turn around just as soon as you pry this wheel from my cold, dead fingers. How’s that sound?" Remember that the reason why they are in the truck in the first place was because Mike and Bonnie had abandoned the group and took all their stuff and at the same time Clem was injured by Arvo. Therefore, Kenny and Jane needed to leave Arvo’s place immediately (there was nothing left there) and keep Clem warm with the truck’s heater. There was no time to discuss where to go until Clem had woken up. But we all know what happened next. Doesn’t matter who started the verbal spat, both began berating the other. Nonetheless, there was nothing keeping Jane from leaving Kenny, other than her affection for Clem. Thus, Kenny still did not force anyone to go with him up north. Jane chose to stay for Clem’s sake, despite her claim that she wanted to get out of the truck in order to avoid verbally fighting with Kenny.
You do realize that this was posted just yesterday, right? I have replied to this post to the best of my abilities and have found it wanting. Nonetheless, I enjoy hearing other peoples' opinions and perspectives