You do realize that this was posted just yesterday, right? I have replied to this post to the best of my abilities and have found it wanting. Nonetheless, I enjoy hearing other peoples' opinions and perspectives
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I don't have the time at all right now to respond as extensively as I'd like to, and tomorrow I'm going away until Sept 16th. -_- I still disagree with some of your points, but I'll just have to respond later. I will say though that it would help to look closer at the chronology of the dialogue and their actions, and who responds to what was said etc. in what order. I wrote up a script of what was said/what actions were taken, but in the interest of not making this thread too much longer than it is (too late lol) I won't post it, unless you'd like me to.
Also I'll repeat that I am mad at Jane. I can't stand her for making Clem a murderer for such a stupid reason.
Edit: Ah actually I have to retract the above sentence. Clem killed Kenny in the Right of Self Defense of Others; it wasn't murder.
Thank you for your comment
As for your first point about Jane being shallowly stabbed once when and only when you pick up the gun. That … moredetail is IRRELEVANT when we look at the whole fight. As I have already pointed out, Jane made her INTENTION to kill Kenny when she slashed his stomach and chased after him outside. She even proclaims her intention to kill Kenny when Clem asks Jane to "back off" by saying "No, Clem. It’s time to put this crusty piece of shiz out of his misery". By making her intention to kill Kenny she made it clear that she WASN’T going to tell the truth about AJ as the fight had now become a fight to the death. For Jane to tell the truth at the "verge of death" would make no difference as all reasoning had now been left to the wayside. Both Jane and Kenny knew that when they were already at each other’s throats. You must also remember that the TWD game series is a game with limits and is confined to the parameters of th… [view original content]
It's ok, my friend, take your time and enjoy life. No matter what our differences are concerning this issue, we both love this game, as it has made us think things we wouldn't have normally payed attention to. Long live Clementine #ClemforSeason3
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I don't have the time at all right now to respond as extensively as I'd like to, and tomorrow I'm going… more away until Sept 16th. -_- I still disagree with some of your points, but I'll just have to respond later. I will say though that it would help to look closer at the chronology of the dialogue and their actions, and who responds to what was said etc. in what order. I wrote up a script of what was said/what actions were taken, but in the interest of not making this thread too much longer than it is (too late lol) I won't post it, unless you'd like me to.
Also I'll repeat that I am mad at Jane. I can't stand her for making Clem a murderer for such a stupid reason.
Edit: Ah actually I have to retract the above sentence. Clem killed Kenny in the Right of Self Defense of Others; it wasn't murder.
Thanks a bunch, my friend.
It certainly was horrible choice for Clem to make. I just wished we had the choice to save both Kenny and Jane. It would have been interesting to see how they would have reconciled, with Clem as their pillar of unity.
It's ok, my friend, take your time and enjoy life. No matter what our differences are concerning this issue, we both love this game, as it has made us think things we wouldn't have normally payed attention to. Long live Clementine #ClemforSeason3
I kinda hopes you will bring two perspectives, not only from Kenny's but also from Jane's side. Because I am curious. That's okay though. I hope anyone who chose Jane could make an analysis as good as yours.
Anyway,
someone said once that it's not hatred, grudge, or fury that makes the strongest motivation. It's love. Human would do anything for things they care most. And that's what Kenny do to Clem and AJ, what makes him carry on from time to time. Unless you leave family and friends behind like Jane, well, surely she'll remember it for the rest of her live.
Thanks for reading
I do plan on updating my analysis and give more insight into the actions and motivations of Kenny and Jane. I can't promise that I'll go easy on Jane, but I can promise to be honest in my thoughts. I just hope that people don't take me the wrong way and think that I'm on a crusade against Jane. That's a common charge labeled on most, if not all, Kenny supporters. I want to reiterate that I never once sided with Kenny because he was right in what he did, but rather because it was morally right for Clem not to get involved in this horrible mess for reasons that I've explained already in my analysis and in my replies to people.
Anyways, thanks for sharing your thoughts. and I agree with your statement.
I kinda hopes you will bring two perspectives, not only from Kenny's but also from Jane's side. Because I am curious. That's okay though. I … morehope anyone who chose Jane could make an analysis as good as yours.
Anyway,
someone said once that it's not hatred, grudge, or fury that makes the strongest motivation. It's love. Human would do anything for things they care most. And that's what Kenny do to Clem and AJ, what makes him carry on from time to time. Unless you leave family and friends behind like Jane, well, surely she'll remember it for the rest of her live.
It is a good analysis and pretty much what I had in mind after the end of the episode.
I'll just c/p an earlier post of mine here which sums up my point of view about the fight:
I actually liked Jane from the begining. But in that fighting scene she was wrong in many ways. Jane pulled out her knife, which was a mistake, yes she was in self defense but that only made things worse. Pulling a weapon in a fight shows lethal intent, and that rarely ends up well, unless you are certain the person on the other side can be easily intimidated. She should have known Kenny by now. When she put away the knife there was actually a pause, but instead of using that brief moment to try and calm Kenny, she goaded him and caused an already infuriated Kenny to attack her. When Clem pulled him off her, she started to attack him while he was on the ground, she stabbed him, gouged his wound, she didn't look like she had any intention of backing down, or try to reason with him. At any moment she could stop, tell the truth and tell Clem how dangerous/unstable he is and prove her point so nobody would have to die. I tried to stop her, I tried to warn her not to push him, but she wouldn't listen. It looked to me as if she was trying to find a way to get rid of Kenny while not making herself guilty in Clem's eyes. So that she could replace the sister she had lost, that she had wronged (in her eyes) but her attempt to do that was incredibly flawed.
The fight could be prevented if she never lied in the first place. It wasn't really necessary, she was a smart and cunning person, she knew he was on the edge and knew he would lose it if she put that baby's life in danger. She did it anyway. It was a flawed and deceitful plan, it was far too cruel to just to make a point. Although I always liked Kenny and considered him as Clem's family, there were times I disagreed with him. So I replayed that scene thrice, I wanted to see if he was wrong to do that, I could perhaps change my mind side with Jane, I wanted to be objective, but everytime I replayed it, I couldn't find a valid reason behind her actions.
Thanks for reading
I do plan on updating my analysis and give more insight into the actions and motivations of Kenny and Jane. I can't pr… moreomise that I'll go easy on Jane, but I can promise to be honest in my thoughts. I just hope that people don't take me the wrong way and think that I'm on a crusade against Jane. That's a common charge labeled on most, if not all, Kenny supporters. I want to reiterate that I never once sided with Kenny because he was right in what he did, but rather because it was morally right for Clem not to get involved in this horrible mess for reasons that I've explained already in my analysis and in my replies to people.
Anyways, thanks for sharing your thoughts. and I agree with your statement.
I've just recently updated my analysis in which I added a "Other thoughts" section. I'll use this section to expand on a few more of my thoughts concerning the Kenny/Jane fight. So I'll be updating it again if I so choose to, and I'll inform you readers of it as well. Enjoy
Or maybe because he didn't want to get stabbed? When he pins her to the wall he doesn't strike out at her; he uses his other hand to keep Jane from unsheathing her blade. It's an intelligent move to wait for an opponent to have their guard down or at the very least have their weapon out of hands, regardless of gender. Kenny would have done the same to any opponent - did you get as upset when he didn't attack Carver when he was armed, and only laid into him when he was defenseless?
Kenny lost the little respect I had for him when he stoped attacking Jane then waited for her to put her blade away. Thats not blind rage. T… morehat thinking things out. He knew she had a slit upper hand and stoped attacking then only attacked after the women put the blade away
The fact is that Kenny showed his true colors in his ending of the game. Kenny showed everyone that he cheated in order to win that foot rac… moree to Wellington. Clementine could have easily won if he gave her an propitiate amount of time to get ready, but he just ran right past her without any heads up that he started the race till it was too late. Judging Kenny by any other actions throughout the game is completely pointless and stupid.
One thing I found interesting during the struggle was how when Kenny mutters, "I'll kill you," after Clementine is knocked over for the last time, Jane responds with, "I knew you would.." And as you said, she also only asks Clementine for help when she has the gun. To me, it feels like Jane was goading Kenny into a fight to the death. If he attacked first, she could always spin it as self defense (or better yet force Clementine to do it, absolving her of guilt). Everything about Jane's actions during the fight felt very... orchestrated. She sheaths the knife as a show, but almost immediately moves to pull it out once the fight actually begins.
One thing I found interesting during the struggle was how when Kenny mutters, "I'll kill you," after Clementine is knocked over for the last… more time, Jane responds with, "I knew you would.." And as you said, she also only asks Clementine for help when she has the gun. To me, it feels like Jane was goading Kenny into a fight to the death. If he attacked first, she could always spin it as self defense (or better yet force Clementine to do it, absolving her of guilt). Everything about Jane's actions during the fight felt very... orchestrated. She sheaths the knife as a show, but almost immediately moves to pull it out once the fight actually begins.
On whether or not Jane "needed" to do it: It's clear Jane set up the whole deal and they didn't need to fight, Kenny didn't need to die. That is true. However, what needed to happen is they needed to be able to make decisions contrary to what Kenny wanted. If you're in Jane's shoes, you know that going north is suicide. Look at that snowstorm. But Kenny simply will refuse to hear anything besides what he wants. You have a couple of choices: leave and go your own way because you are not committing suicide, or try to convince as many people as possible not to go. Jane chose not to just ditch the group; instead she tried to convince Clementine to not go north with Kenny. It was extremely questionable approach, but if you know someone in your life like Kenny, then you might know how creative you must be to actually get your way. In this case it's life or death, following him or going your own way, so Jane blurred the moral line.
In conclusion I'd say from a morality perspective Jane goaded Kenny into becoming violent, so he's less culpable. But Jane was not evil either. From her perspective, she needed to protect Clementine from Kenny, and in order to do that, she had to show Clementine what Kenny is capable of. That's what Jane meant by "needed". Maybe we disagree that that was necessary, but Jane's character sincerely wanted to protect Clementine from Kenny, otherwise Jane had absolutely no reason to endanger herself by getting into a fight with Kenny; she could've just run away by herself. From that perspective I would never blame Jane.
I just can't agree with the notion that Jane was in anyway justified or not a complete psycho. I'm sorry but what she did was wrong and truly horrific.
I shot kenny. Now I shot kenny because at that point I didn't know what else to do. In the moment I felt it was entirely possible that she was attacked by walkers and had no choice but to abandon the baby, and kenny killing her was just not right.
When I picked the gun up I wasn't thinking in terms of playing favorites I always tried to play with a righteous mind set. At that moment I was pissed off about the baby right along side of kenny, but I dont feel it was justification to kill her.
Now here's the part that blows my mind, with people siding with jane. When I found out that she lied about the baby and ended up causing me to kill someone who had always protected me, and reguardless of his aggression was ALWAYS acting on behalf of keeping the group safe. Sure there was several times when his actions caused the group trouble and towards the end wound up prying the group apart, but at the end of the day his heart was always in the right place, he did what he thought was right, he tried to be a good person. I mean right off the bat he didn't trust jane, but he and jane left. TOGETHER.
I liked jane, but in hind sight maybe I think my liking jane may have stemmed out of me wishing molly had came back. We never experienced much with jane, but in the few situations we did we got to see her true colors. In the trailer she was more then willing to leave sarah to die. when we first see arvo I didnt trust him either, but she handled the situation like a crazy thieving scum bag, infact it was this situation that I started to actually not trust her, not just trust her judgement, but someone who acts like that to a stranger without making even the slightest effort to figure out who they are or what they are about, well... Its the kind of thing that is a true sign of evil in its baby steps. Now when the situation arouse where she had to save sarah, if not for clem demanding it, she again would have just left her for dead.
When jane came back, I was happy. I didn't look at her negatively when she left even though at that point I had really lost alot of trust for her and her return sort of renewed that trust and made me think that she wasn't necessarily a bad person and that it was possible for her to work out her trust issues.
Like I said, I shot kenny, but for anyone in anyway attempt to side with jane after learning what she did is just disgusting. She proved who she was when she did that, a crazy scum bag who's lack of trust drives her to let innocent people suffer for her own selfish gain.
Jane is scum. Whether you killed kenny or not, and if you stay silent and dont forgive jane you still go with her, so if you leave with jane even then I can say its a justified action as surviving alone with a baby seems dangerous, but to anyone who in anyway attempts to justify janes actions or side with jane on what happened I have no respect for your moral judgements what so ever. What Jane did was horrible and unforgivable in every way, kenny did not deserve to die.
Ok, here we go. I've been really reluctant to get into this debate that often, but since you prompted me I will. I'm mostly defending Jane h… moreere because well, you unfairly didn't at all, especially if you're trying to be "unbiased." However I will note that I am mad at Jane. Anyway... * cracks knuckles * Two main things, and then a bunch of nitpicks:
1) One detail that I never see anyone bring up anywhere, and will be relevant later in this post:
Skip to the end of the fight, when Kenny is bearing down on Jane with the knife to her chest.
Jane: Clem...help!
No one ever notices that Kenny has ALREADY SHALLOWLY STABBED HER ONCE IN THE CHEST before stabbing her a second time to finally kill her. Remember that red stain on her heart when she's standing by the car if you shot Kenny? That was where Kenny stabbed her once already, before killing her.
After she's stabbed once, Jane is about to die. She is on the verge of death. Now … [view original content]
* Kenny's a grown mature man, he has to control his emotions. No matter what one endures, one has control over one's attitude and emotion. … more Kenny is unstable.
* Your point about his treatment of Clementine is valid. His treatment of others is pretty shitty and disrespectful. Jane has proven she has been looking out for Clem survival skills wise and maybe felt a bond with her. In that sense, She views Kenny's attitude and treatment of others as a negative which could end up with on the receiving end. As I said in another post, women notice things like Kenny's actions and they see fear and its not wrong ifgroup.... felt that.
* Its probably not the smartest thing in the world to do, but her theory was right. Kenny went off the deep end. Even if she could say anything, the tension between them was heightened enough that Jane could not say anything about the baby.
* He attacked a woman just before his life was in danger.
* Throughout t… [view original content]
I shot him because... well... if it was Jane on top bringing the knife down on Kenny I would have shot Jane instead.
I just couldn't "not" stop him from killing her. I had to try.
I agree, she wasn't evil and most likely in her mind she was doing the right thing. But she had no right to do what she did, she never should have resorted to trickery to make her case. That was her fault. She was too blinded by her own judgement, she didn't think things through (I think). She should have ended the fight (instead of violently pushing it further) at some point by telling the truth then offer Clementine a chance to come with her or go with Kenny.
On whether or not Jane "needed" to do it: It's clear Jane set up the whole deal and they didn't need to fight, Kenny didn't need to die. Tha… moret is true. However, what needed to happen is they needed to be able to make decisions contrary to what Kenny wanted. If you're in Jane's shoes, you know that going north is suicide. Look at that snowstorm. But Kenny simply will refuse to hear anything besides what he wants. You have a couple of choices: leave and go your own way because you are not committing suicide, or try to convince as many people as possible not to go. Jane chose not to just ditch the group; instead she tried to convince Clementine to not go north with Kenny. It was extremely questionable approach, but if you know someone in your life like Kenny, then you might know how creative you must be to actually get your way. In this case it's life or death, following him or going your own way, so Jane blurred the moral line.
In conclusion … [view original content]
Thats why I lost respect for him. I could not lie to myself and say it was okay what Kenny was doing to Jane because he was in a blind rage. His intelligent choices took 'blind rage' off the table. To Caver stuff Kenny did attack when Carver was armed and had hostages. Kenny tried to attack Carver and his whole gang when he was unarmed so Kenny has a past of going after people with weapons
Or maybe because he didn't want to get stabbed? When he pins her to the wall he doesn't strike out at her; he uses his other hand to keep Ja… morene from unsheathing her blade. It's an intelligent move to wait for an opponent to have their guard down or at the very least have their weapon out of hands, regardless of gender. Kenny would have done the same to any opponent - did you get as upset when he didn't attack Carver when he was armed, and only laid into him when he was defenseless?
Just want to point at that the Clem being hit by Kenny thing is completely determinant; I got him to stop without having Clementine get up. Why hold determinant choices against a character when for many people it didn't happen? Also it's a bit of a stretch to say that Clementine was shot BECAUSE of Kenny. In fact I'd go as far as to say it's a slippery slope. Arvo had the gun because they were leaving with the supplies and were arming themselves in case Clementine, Kenny OR Jane appeared. But more than that, Arvo shoots Clementine because he wants to. He blames her for his sister's death and the motion he makes to spit on the ground while looking at her is common body language for, "I hate your guts". Clementine and Mike fumble with the gun (or Clementine shoots Mike, instigating Arvo, if we want to count patched out content), which results in her being shot. Mike, Bonnie and Arvo deciding to leave two young children in freezing weather with no supplies and without a truck is ultimately on them. They never ask Jane or Clementine to leave with them and they don't grab AJ, either. It goes deeper than them just being scared of Kenny when they make those kind of choices.
The problem with escaping Carver's camp was with Carlos being shot, Sarah screaming, Sarita being bitten and Rebecca having a meltdown. It's a null point to mention Kenny's beating of Carver as if it was to blame or had any impact on the escape plan. All in all it takes about a minute and if not for Kenny, Rebecca would have killed him because of Alvin's death. They still manage to leave before the Walkers are completely upon the compound and whether or not they stayed to deal with walkers is shown to make no real difference. Honestly, Troy appearing and Jane dealing with him takes just about the same amount of time; there were delays on both ends.
If you're going to call the objectivity of someone's post into question, you shouldn't be so blatantly one-sided yourself. Kenny calls Clementine by Duck's name once, a few minutes after reuniting with her. Kenny didn't mistake her for Duck or see her as a fill-in for him. However, Clementine was a reminder of his time with Lee and his family, this much is evident by the fact he almost immediately begins to talk about Lee. In that mix of emotions and driven to a stressful point while arguing with Luke and Nick, it's not really surprising that he became briefly confused about the present and past. If we're going to bring up characters who apply people from the past to the present, there's the fact that Jane advocates abandoning Sarah and later leaves the group because she doesn't want to see Clementine become Jaime. Clementine can straight up tell her that she and Jaime are not the same person.
Bringing up, "they see you as someone they need to protect," is kind of a null point. Both Jane and Kenny do this and it's not an inherently negative trait. If Clementine tells Kenny that she needs him in the tent with Sarita's body, he'll respond that he believes she's as competent as five adults and capable of doing plenty of things without him. Jane and Kenny are both guilty of becoming upset when Clementine doesn't mirror their opinions. This is especially evident in the truck scene when you're deciding where to go. So if you're going to count this as a point of these character's not seeing Clementine as her own person with her own opinions, then both Jane and Kenny are guilty of this.
I don't think Jane went into the fight expecting to be able to call it off. She had the power to call it off the entire time (the fact that AJ was safe) but chose not to. Furthermore, she illustrates that she expected Kenny to come at her. She didn't underestimate his rage - she planned for it. Whether she thought she was ultimately acting for Clementine's long-term well being or "selfish love", Jane tried to create a situation where she would be justified in killing Kenny. Just look at the fact that Jane will only ever ask Clementine for help if she picks up the pistol. If you sit in the snow and watch, she doesn't say a thing. On top of how dangerous her plan was (to herself and AJ), she tried to manipulate Clementine's emotions. Yes, Kenny was angry and he jumped to conclusions, but Jane is just as guilty of going into that fight with intent to kill as Kenny. In fact, she was premeditated about it.
Also, it's kind of a well known fact that Kenny beats the shit out of people frequently. He beat Arvo, who did a lot less to him than Jane did. Jane may have claimed AJ's death was an accident, but in any situation returning after 10 minutes without so much as a body for people to mourn is suspicious. Kenny tries to hit her, then misses. That's the point where Jane shows her knife, then resheaths it; the next thing we see Kenny do is pin her to the door with one hand and use the other to keep her from pulling out her knife once more. I see a lot of people calling Kenny the aggressor in the fight - and sure, he may have started it, but look at how the Kenny and Jane fight plays out from that point;
Jane either knees Kenny in the groin or Kenny is pulled off of her by Clementine
Jane gets on top of Kenny and begins to punch him in the head; she is pulled off by Clementine or by Kenny
With Jane pulled back, Kenny gets up and lunges for her again, this time Jane is able to unsheath her knife and slash Kenny across the stomach
Kenny stumbles out the door and into the snow, Jane pursues him
Clementine can get between them, and in 2 of the 3 situations, Jane is the one to shove Clementine out of the way. At this point, Kenny's devotion to the fight is understandable (He believes Jane murdered AJ and has been stabbed by her), but Jane's refusal to run away when for all we know she is an innocent women being accused of murder shows a willingness to fight an unnecessary battle.
Jane lunges into Kenny and they crash through the sign. Jenny again gets on top of Kenny and begins to gouge out his injured eye this time.
Jane is pulled off of Kenny, though Kenny grabs her knife and stabs her in the leg, causing a chain of events where she collapses as Kenny charges her and Clementine is knocked to the back
After this is the final exchange we know; where Clementine must choose to either shoot Kenny or look away/not pick up the gun. But looking at these points, Jane was just as much an aggressor, if not more, than Kenny. The only two attacks he lands before finally getting on top of her is the initial hold and the stab to her leg. I just hate to see this myth perpetuated that Kenny was moving the fight forward. He may have initiated it, but Kenny says so much himself that Jane had complete power to stop it. If she had shouted out that AJ was fine and where he was, Kenny would have likely broken off to search for him. It was in Jane's interest to keep the fight going, however, because she wanted a fight to the death. The reasons why, however, really aren't worth trying to figure out because it's all just supposition in the end.
I went through the whole OP, and I have some objections to the "objectivity" claim.
First, you take everything Kenny says at face value, … moreincluding what he thought motivated Jane, but disregard everything Jane says as lies. Kenny contradicts himself plenty.
For example, he claims after the fight that if she'd just explained things, it wouldn't have gone that far, but during the fight he doesn't press her for answers and he makes it clear that he isn't going to listen to anything she says. Besides, he didn't believe her when she said it was an accident, why would he believe her if she said he was still alive? And even in the dialog after the fight he confesses that he was seeing black and wasn't aware of what he was doing until it was too late. So why would he have listened to anything she said? He's just making excuses.
Also, he says he would never, ever hurt you, and that's factually wrong. If you try to stop him from hitting Arvo, h… [view original content]
Updated again, a small entry concerning Kenny being labelled a "psycho" for assuming that Jane murdered AJ. A false charge, of course, which I explain in the latest update of my analysis
I've just recently updated my analysis in which I added a "Other thoughts" section. I'll use this section to expand on a few more of my thou… moreghts concerning the Kenny/Jane fight. So I'll be updating it again if I so choose to, and I'll inform you readers of it as well. Enjoy
Thanks for taking the time to read, my friend
And thanks for the praise. I certainly hope my analysis was coherent and cogent enough for readers to understand my reasoning, even if they disagree with me.
Updated again, this time an entry concerning three fallacious arguments that Kenny is somehow a liability, useless, and a "psycho". I had to address this because of a recent thread from another Jane supporter.
Updated again, a small entry concerning Kenny being labelled a "psycho" for assuming that Jane murdered AJ. A false charge, of course, which I explain in the latest update of my analysis
Luke actually thought she was very skilled... Even though it had been a while for him.
Honestly I really didn't like how they ended things. I like Jane, Kenny, and Mike. I felt that TellTale took them away from their character personalities. I didn't see Jane as the type to hide a baby to set off Kenny. She showed almost no emotion for Luke after he died but showed it earlier. Mike became a total traitor. Stealing all the supplies, and running off with a guy who had just a short time earlier brought armed people to jump his group... Bonnie I could see that, she was a lying bitch from the first time she entered the game, Mike didn't seem the type. I don't know. It just didn't feel right to me.
Kenny I could see going nuts only because from about half way through the first game he was pretty much tortured non stop both emotionally, and physically. By the end he was pretty messed up.
Honestly, I liked Jane a lot but I like Kenny way more so I easily let him kill her, Luke Vs Kenny would have been predictable and hard to do (To be able to make Luke fight Kenny) but it would have actually been kind of hard for me so yeah....
I didn't see Jane as the type to hide a baby to set off Kenny.
Really? I thougth that part was very in character. She is willing to shot off Troy´s dick and leave him to be eated alive, so that she hid AJ was no really all that surprising.
She showed almost no emotion for Luke after he died but showed it earlier.
She does show emotion for Luke after he dies. When Clem wakes up for the first time at the unfished house, Jane is nearly crying about Luke´s death.
. Mike became a total traitor. Stealing all the supplies, and running off with a guy who had just a short time earlier brought armed people to jump his group...
Yeah I picked Kenny over Jane. I just felt like it was forced. like the developers were like "We need to finish this game up. We are behind schedule. Hurry lets kill some people and get it over with."
Honestly, I liked Jane a lot but I like Kenny way more so I easily let him kill her, Luke Vs Kenny would have been predictable and hard to do (To be able to make Luke fight Kenny) but it would have actually been kind of hard for me so yeah....
Yeah but Troy was a piece of shit. He was holding a gun on the group, zombies were coming, and time was short. Jane is very cunning, and can be ruthless if forced but with Kenny her back wasn't against the wall. It wasn't do or die. It just didn't feel right to me.
As for Luke I felt like there should have been more emotion. Also her calling his name while he was under the ice would have been more realistic to me. It was like she gave up as soon as he fell in.
I didn't see Jane as the type to hide a baby to set off Kenny.
Really? I thougth that part was very in character. She is willing to … moreshot off Troy´s dick and leave him to be eated alive, so that she hid AJ was no really all that surprising.
She showed almost no emotion for Luke after he died but showed it earlier.
She does show emotion for Luke after he dies. When Clem wakes up for the first time at the unfished house, Jane is nearly crying about Luke´s death.
. Mike became a total traitor. Stealing all the supplies, and running off with a guy who had just a short time earlier brought armed people to jump his group...
I agree. Fuck Mike.
Yeah but Troy was a piece of shit. He was holding a gun on the group, zombies were coming, and time was short. Jane is very cunning, and c… morean be ruthless if forced but with Kenny her back wasn't against the wall. It wasn't do or die. It just didn't feel right to me.
As for Luke I felt like there should have been more emotion. Also her calling his name while he was under the ice would have been more realistic to me. It was like she gave up as soon as he fell in.
Mike didn't really have a character yet. I felt Jane was perfectly in character, but I felt it was a pity that there wasn't drawn any similarities between her and Kenny at all.
It would have made the Jane vs. Kenny choice a whole lot more impactful on me if they had shared a moment or two of agreement or cooperation instead of just being opposed to each other all the time. It felt a bit too kindergarden'y to me.
Comments
No, to be honest, I didn't realize that at all. :>
Thank you so much, my friend. God bless.
HAHAHA, It's alright my friend. I'll do the caring, so you won't have to
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I don't have the time at all right now to respond as extensively as I'd like to, and tomorrow I'm going away until Sept 16th. -_- I still disagree with some of your points, but I'll just have to respond later. I will say though that it would help to look closer at the chronology of the dialogue and their actions, and who responds to what was said etc. in what order. I wrote up a script of what was said/what actions were taken, but in the interest of not making this thread too much longer than it is (too late lol) I won't post it, unless you'd like me to.
Also I'll repeat that I am mad at Jane. I can't stand her for making Clem a murderer for such a stupid reason.
Edit: Ah actually I have to retract the above sentence. Clem killed Kenny in the Right of Self Defense of Others; it wasn't murder.
It's ok, my friend, take your time and enjoy life. No matter what our differences are concerning this issue, we both love this game, as it has made us think things we wouldn't have normally payed attention to. Long live Clementine #ClemforSeason3
Excellent analysis OP.
In the end, Clem had a crap choice to deal with either way.
Both people are broken.
Thanks a bunch, my friend.
It certainly was horrible choice for Clem to make. I just wished we had the choice to save both Kenny and Jane. It would have been interesting to see how they would have reconciled, with Clem as their pillar of unity.
Haha thanks. We certainly do both love this game! Hear hear, long live Clementine!
#ClemforSeason3!!!
I kinda hopes you will bring two perspectives, not only from Kenny's but also from Jane's side. Because I am curious. That's okay though. I hope anyone who chose Jane could make an analysis as good as yours.
Anyway,
someone said once that it's not hatred, grudge, or fury that makes the strongest motivation. It's love. Human would do anything for things they care most. And that's what Kenny do to Clem and AJ, what makes him carry on from time to time. Unless you leave family and friends behind like Jane, well, surely she'll remember it for the rest of her live.
Thanks for reading
I do plan on updating my analysis and give more insight into the actions and motivations of Kenny and Jane. I can't promise that I'll go easy on Jane, but I can promise to be honest in my thoughts. I just hope that people don't take me the wrong way and think that I'm on a crusade against Jane. That's a common charge labeled on most, if not all, Kenny supporters. I want to reiterate that I never once sided with Kenny because he was right in what he did, but rather because it was morally right for Clem not to get involved in this horrible mess for reasons that I've explained already in my analysis and in my replies to people.
Anyways, thanks for sharing your thoughts. and I agree with your statement.
It is a good analysis and pretty much what I had in mind after the end of the episode.
I'll just c/p an earlier post of mine here which sums up my point of view about the fight:
The fight could be prevented if she never lied in the first place. It wasn't really necessary, she was a smart and cunning person, she knew he was on the edge and knew he would lose it if she put that baby's life in danger. She did it anyway. It was a flawed and deceitful plan, it was far too cruel to just to make a point. Although I always liked Kenny and considered him as Clem's family, there were times I disagreed with him. So I replayed that scene thrice, I wanted to see if he was wrong to do that, I could perhaps change my mind side with Jane, I wanted to be objective, but everytime I replayed it, I couldn't find a valid reason behind her actions.
I've just recently updated my analysis in which I added a "Other thoughts" section. I'll use this section to expand on a few more of my thoughts concerning the Kenny/Jane fight. So I'll be updating it again if I so choose to, and I'll inform you readers of it as well. Enjoy
Or maybe because he didn't want to get stabbed? When he pins her to the wall he doesn't strike out at her; he uses his other hand to keep Jane from unsheathing her blade. It's an intelligent move to wait for an opponent to have their guard down or at the very least have their weapon out of hands, regardless of gender. Kenny would have done the same to any opponent - did you get as upset when he didn't attack Carver when he was armed, and only laid into him when he was defenseless?
Dude he had to get a head start to compensate for AJ. Stop being salty, Clem.
One thing I found interesting during the struggle was how when Kenny mutters, "I'll kill you," after Clementine is knocked over for the last time, Jane responds with, "I knew you would.." And as you said, she also only asks Clementine for help when she has the gun. To me, it feels like Jane was goading Kenny into a fight to the death. If he attacked first, she could always spin it as self defense (or better yet force Clementine to do it, absolving her of guilt). Everything about Jane's actions during the fight felt very... orchestrated. She sheaths the knife as a show, but almost immediately moves to pull it out once the fight actually begins.
This. I totally agree.
On whether or not Jane "needed" to do it: It's clear Jane set up the whole deal and they didn't need to fight, Kenny didn't need to die. That is true. However, what needed to happen is they needed to be able to make decisions contrary to what Kenny wanted. If you're in Jane's shoes, you know that going north is suicide. Look at that snowstorm. But Kenny simply will refuse to hear anything besides what he wants. You have a couple of choices: leave and go your own way because you are not committing suicide, or try to convince as many people as possible not to go. Jane chose not to just ditch the group; instead she tried to convince Clementine to not go north with Kenny. It was extremely questionable approach, but if you know someone in your life like Kenny, then you might know how creative you must be to actually get your way. In this case it's life or death, following him or going your own way, so Jane blurred the moral line.
In conclusion I'd say from a morality perspective Jane goaded Kenny into becoming violent, so he's less culpable. But Jane was not evil either. From her perspective, she needed to protect Clementine from Kenny, and in order to do that, she had to show Clementine what Kenny is capable of. That's what Jane meant by "needed". Maybe we disagree that that was necessary, but Jane's character sincerely wanted to protect Clementine from Kenny, otherwise Jane had absolutely no reason to endanger herself by getting into a fight with Kenny; she could've just run away by herself. From that perspective I would never blame Jane.
I just can't agree with the notion that Jane was in anyway justified or not a complete psycho. I'm sorry but what she did was wrong and truly horrific.
I shot kenny. Now I shot kenny because at that point I didn't know what else to do. In the moment I felt it was entirely possible that she was attacked by walkers and had no choice but to abandon the baby, and kenny killing her was just not right.
When I picked the gun up I wasn't thinking in terms of playing favorites I always tried to play with a righteous mind set. At that moment I was pissed off about the baby right along side of kenny, but I dont feel it was justification to kill her.
Now here's the part that blows my mind, with people siding with jane. When I found out that she lied about the baby and ended up causing me to kill someone who had always protected me, and reguardless of his aggression was ALWAYS acting on behalf of keeping the group safe. Sure there was several times when his actions caused the group trouble and towards the end wound up prying the group apart, but at the end of the day his heart was always in the right place, he did what he thought was right, he tried to be a good person. I mean right off the bat he didn't trust jane, but he and jane left. TOGETHER.
I liked jane, but in hind sight maybe I think my liking jane may have stemmed out of me wishing molly had came back. We never experienced much with jane, but in the few situations we did we got to see her true colors. In the trailer she was more then willing to leave sarah to die. when we first see arvo I didnt trust him either, but she handled the situation like a crazy thieving scum bag, infact it was this situation that I started to actually not trust her, not just trust her judgement, but someone who acts like that to a stranger without making even the slightest effort to figure out who they are or what they are about, well... Its the kind of thing that is a true sign of evil in its baby steps. Now when the situation arouse where she had to save sarah, if not for clem demanding it, she again would have just left her for dead.
When jane came back, I was happy. I didn't look at her negatively when she left even though at that point I had really lost alot of trust for her and her return sort of renewed that trust and made me think that she wasn't necessarily a bad person and that it was possible for her to work out her trust issues.
Like I said, I shot kenny, but for anyone in anyway attempt to side with jane after learning what she did is just disgusting. She proved who she was when she did that, a crazy scum bag who's lack of trust drives her to let innocent people suffer for her own selfish gain.
Jane is scum. Whether you killed kenny or not, and if you stay silent and dont forgive jane you still go with her, so if you leave with jane even then I can say its a justified action as surviving alone with a baby seems dangerous, but to anyone who in anyway attempts to justify janes actions or side with jane on what happened I have no respect for your moral judgements what so ever. What Jane did was horrible and unforgivable in every way, kenny did not deserve to die.
[removed]
I shot him because... well... if it was Jane on top bringing the knife down on Kenny I would have shot Jane instead.
I just couldn't "not" stop him from killing her. I had to try.
Its been talked about millions of times and jane jane jane is the lesser fault.I picked Jane
I agree, she wasn't evil and most likely in her mind she was doing the right thing. But she had no right to do what she did, she never should have resorted to trickery to make her case. That was her fault. She was too blinded by her own judgement, she didn't think things through (I think). She should have ended the fight (instead of violently pushing it further) at some point by telling the truth then offer Clementine a chance to come with her or go with Kenny.
Thats why I lost respect for him. I could not lie to myself and say it was okay what Kenny was doing to Jane because he was in a blind rage. His intelligent choices took 'blind rage' off the table. To Caver stuff Kenny did attack when Carver was armed and had hostages. Kenny tried to attack Carver and his whole gang when he was unarmed so Kenny has a past of going after people with weapons
I PREFER THIS ENDING:
Stay with Kenny and Leave Wellington in The Walking Dead Season 2 Episode 5 - No Going Back
BECAUSE,
I honestly don't see Kenny getting out of this alive. He's just one of those characters who will be with you, almost to the end.
HE'S JUST ONE OF THOSE CHARACTERS WHO WILL BE WITH YOU, ALMOST TO THE END!
FOREVER KENNY AND CLEMENTINE.
I LOVE KENNY.
Just want to point at that the Clem being hit by Kenny thing is completely determinant; I got him to stop without having Clementine get up. Why hold determinant choices against a character when for many people it didn't happen? Also it's a bit of a stretch to say that Clementine was shot BECAUSE of Kenny. In fact I'd go as far as to say it's a slippery slope. Arvo had the gun because they were leaving with the supplies and were arming themselves in case Clementine, Kenny OR Jane appeared. But more than that, Arvo shoots Clementine because he wants to. He blames her for his sister's death and the motion he makes to spit on the ground while looking at her is common body language for, "I hate your guts". Clementine and Mike fumble with the gun (or Clementine shoots Mike, instigating Arvo, if we want to count patched out content), which results in her being shot. Mike, Bonnie and Arvo deciding to leave two young children in freezing weather with no supplies and without a truck is ultimately on them. They never ask Jane or Clementine to leave with them and they don't grab AJ, either. It goes deeper than them just being scared of Kenny when they make those kind of choices.
The problem with escaping Carver's camp was with Carlos being shot, Sarah screaming, Sarita being bitten and Rebecca having a meltdown. It's a null point to mention Kenny's beating of Carver as if it was to blame or had any impact on the escape plan. All in all it takes about a minute and if not for Kenny, Rebecca would have killed him because of Alvin's death. They still manage to leave before the Walkers are completely upon the compound and whether or not they stayed to deal with walkers is shown to make no real difference. Honestly, Troy appearing and Jane dealing with him takes just about the same amount of time; there were delays on both ends.
If you're going to call the objectivity of someone's post into question, you shouldn't be so blatantly one-sided yourself. Kenny calls Clementine by Duck's name once, a few minutes after reuniting with her. Kenny didn't mistake her for Duck or see her as a fill-in for him. However, Clementine was a reminder of his time with Lee and his family, this much is evident by the fact he almost immediately begins to talk about Lee. In that mix of emotions and driven to a stressful point while arguing with Luke and Nick, it's not really surprising that he became briefly confused about the present and past. If we're going to bring up characters who apply people from the past to the present, there's the fact that Jane advocates abandoning Sarah and later leaves the group because she doesn't want to see Clementine become Jaime. Clementine can straight up tell her that she and Jaime are not the same person.
Bringing up, "they see you as someone they need to protect," is kind of a null point. Both Jane and Kenny do this and it's not an inherently negative trait. If Clementine tells Kenny that she needs him in the tent with Sarita's body, he'll respond that he believes she's as competent as five adults and capable of doing plenty of things without him. Jane and Kenny are both guilty of becoming upset when Clementine doesn't mirror their opinions. This is especially evident in the truck scene when you're deciding where to go. So if you're going to count this as a point of these character's not seeing Clementine as her own person with her own opinions, then both Jane and Kenny are guilty of this.
At this point I just want to post something;
http://a.pomf.se/esmlsh.webm
"I'll fuckin' kill you."
"I... knew you would."
I don't think Jane went into the fight expecting to be able to call it off. She had the power to call it off the entire time (the fact that AJ was safe) but chose not to. Furthermore, she illustrates that she expected Kenny to come at her. She didn't underestimate his rage - she planned for it. Whether she thought she was ultimately acting for Clementine's long-term well being or "selfish love", Jane tried to create a situation where she would be justified in killing Kenny. Just look at the fact that Jane will only ever ask Clementine for help if she picks up the pistol. If you sit in the snow and watch, she doesn't say a thing. On top of how dangerous her plan was (to herself and AJ), she tried to manipulate Clementine's emotions. Yes, Kenny was angry and he jumped to conclusions, but Jane is just as guilty of going into that fight with intent to kill as Kenny. In fact, she was premeditated about it.
Also, it's kind of a well known fact that Kenny beats the shit out of people frequently. He beat Arvo, who did a lot less to him than Jane did. Jane may have claimed AJ's death was an accident, but in any situation returning after 10 minutes without so much as a body for people to mourn is suspicious. Kenny tries to hit her, then misses. That's the point where Jane shows her knife, then resheaths it; the next thing we see Kenny do is pin her to the door with one hand and use the other to keep her from pulling out her knife once more. I see a lot of people calling Kenny the aggressor in the fight - and sure, he may have started it, but look at how the Kenny and Jane fight plays out from that point;
After this is the final exchange we know; where Clementine must choose to either shoot Kenny or look away/not pick up the gun. But looking at these points, Jane was just as much an aggressor, if not more, than Kenny. The only two attacks he lands before finally getting on top of her is the initial hold and the stab to her leg. I just hate to see this myth perpetuated that Kenny was moving the fight forward. He may have initiated it, but Kenny says so much himself that Jane had complete power to stop it. If she had shouted out that AJ was fine and where he was, Kenny would have likely broken off to search for him. It was in Jane's interest to keep the fight going, however, because she wanted a fight to the death. The reasons why, however, really aren't worth trying to figure out because it's all just supposition in the end.
Updated again, a small entry concerning Kenny being labelled a "psycho" for assuming that Jane murdered AJ. A false charge, of course, which I explain in the latest update of my analysis
Finally took the time to read this. Very nice write up.
Thanks for taking the time to read, my friend
And thanks for the praise. I certainly hope my analysis was coherent and cogent enough for readers to understand my reasoning, even if they disagree with me.
Updated again, this time an entry concerning three fallacious arguments that Kenny is somehow a liability, useless, and a "psycho". I had to address this because of a recent thread from another Jane supporter.
Thread: Jane wasn't THAT bad.. (spoilers)
Luke actually thought she was very skilled... Even though it had been a while for him.
Honestly I really didn't like how they ended things. I like Jane, Kenny, and Mike. I felt that TellTale took them away from their character personalities. I didn't see Jane as the type to hide a baby to set off Kenny. She showed almost no emotion for Luke after he died but showed it earlier. Mike became a total traitor. Stealing all the supplies, and running off with a guy who had just a short time earlier brought armed people to jump his group... Bonnie I could see that, she was a lying bitch from the first time she entered the game, Mike didn't seem the type. I don't know. It just didn't feel right to me.
Kenny I could see going nuts only because from about half way through the first game he was pretty much tortured non stop both emotionally, and physically. By the end he was pretty messed up.
Honestly, I liked Jane a lot but I like Kenny way more so I easily let him kill her, Luke Vs Kenny would have been predictable and hard to do (To be able to make Luke fight Kenny) but it would have actually been kind of hard for me so yeah....
Really? I thougth that part was very in character. She is willing to shot off Troy´s dick and leave him to be eated alive, so that she hid AJ was no really all that surprising.
She does show emotion for Luke after he dies. When Clem wakes up for the first time at the unfished house, Jane is nearly crying about Luke´s death.
I agree. Fuck Mike.
Yeah I picked Kenny over Jane. I just felt like it was forced. like the developers were like "We need to finish this game up. We are behind schedule. Hurry lets kill some people and get it over with."
Yeah but Troy was a piece of shit. He was holding a gun on the group, zombies were coming, and time was short. Jane is very cunning, and can be ruthless if forced but with Kenny her back wasn't against the wall. It wasn't do or die. It just didn't feel right to me.
As for Luke I felt like there should have been more emotion. Also her calling his name while he was under the ice would have been more realistic to me. It was like she gave up as soon as he fell in.
But forJane, her back was against the wall.
They just fucked once. They are not Romeo and Juliet.
Like she did not even try to save Sarah, for example. Is very in character for her not to risk her life withouth need.
Mike didn't really have a character yet. I felt Jane was perfectly in character, but I felt it was a pity that there wasn't drawn any similarities between her and Kenny at all.
It would have made the Jane vs. Kenny choice a whole lot more impactful on me if they had shared a moment or two of agreement or cooperation instead of just being opposed to each other all the time. It felt a bit too kindergarden'y to me.
You are Satan, sir.
Jane is one of my favourite characters.
Better hide before I'm accused of being Satan.