That is depression. He has been depressed for a long time. It is why he's so irrational and prone to violence, because depression brings out your worst characteristics. He is unable to handle his emotions and uses his loss to justify flying off the handle and beating people who piss him off, and disregard anyone who disagrees with him.
He's a tragic figure, once a pretty good guy looking out for his family, now lying to himself and acting on emotional impulses to deal with the constant pain he feels, which keeps being inflicted upon him.
His attachment to the baby (and Clementine) was unhealthy. He was using them as anchors to his humanity when he got completely out of control. And that wasn't fair to either of the children, with Clementine pained by the responsibility of looking after this old psycho, completely unsure of how to help him.
His death gave him clarity. Knowing he would no longer have to go on with all the guilt and the pain, his belief that he would be reunited with his lost loved ones, whose loss was causing him the pain that caused him to lash out and inflict more pain, gave him peace.
The life of the baby is irrelevant. Kenny accepted his death based on all the depression built up over his life rather than that one specific death. It was merely the catalyst to his next rampage of his self-imposed justice. His death made him truly apologetic, and finally brought him the relief he was long looking for.
kenny thinks aj is dead, that is why he wouldn't mind dying, he probably would have felt the same way if lee had shot kenny after shooting duck, that is depression
Kenny put himself in that situation. He dragged all of them through a blinding snowstorm in the zombie apocalypse looking for a place that may not even exist. When he gets out of the truck, and things go from bad to worse, Jane obviously knew (as the yelling during the drive was proving) that nothing short of extreme measures was going to get through to him. So she concocted a plan to force the issue. Either he remained civil, realized what his constant pushing and stubbornness has wrought, became repentant and settled the fuck down, or he let his anger get the better of him (for the umpteenth time) and lash out with his misplaced blame, to the point that he was willing to kill. And Jane was willing to defend herself if it came to that. But revealing the baby was actually alive wouldn't have solved anything, whether it would have stopped the fight or not. She risked being killed by an enraged Kenny for the sake of Clem and, by extension, the baby itself.
She is not "fucked up" for being forced to come up with a way to deal with an dire situation, caused and being fueled by a stubborn madman that won't listen to reason. You say he cares for Clem and the baby, but then he ignores all logic of their care for whatever goal he needs to focus on to keep the pain of his losses at bay. He is merely using them as anchors for his humanity, so he can justify his loss and pain by lashing out with his emotions. And those emotions could hurt the very things he wants to protect.
He is blinded by his depression and Jane has seen it play out before. Mike and Bonnie have seen it play out before. Clementine has lived through it and there was only one way to put an end to it. Yet instead of outright killing Kenny to stop him, she tried a ploy to force an emotional shift, mostly because she didn't have any other option available to her, and admittedly because she might have been a little PO'd at Kenny for dragging them all into the situation in the first place.
Jane knew how to push Kenny's hot topic buttons and constantly did that to push him over the edge. She knew how messed up he was and Clement… moreine was pretty much the only one able to keep him in check. She didn't have to do any of that, but she did. Maybe it was to help Clementine, maybe it was to cement the fact that she had another little sister and a chance to do right by this one. But she was fucked up for putting Kenny in that situation. Especially when we saw how determined he was to raise AJ right(correcting how he'd fucked up with Duck) and keep him and Clementine safe. She could have easily said, "WAIT! AJ's alive. I just wanted to prove a point to Clem" after he blew up.
Wrong. Jane didn't want Kenny dead, she just knew how the situation was going to play out. And having been dragged into, and basically forced to get lost in, a blinding snowstorm, out of desperation (and a caring nature toward Clementine) she concocted a plan to force an emotional shift. Either Kenny would take the loss in stride, realize it was his unstable and stubborn nature that was the cause, and calm the fuck down, or (predictably) he would let his sadness and anger get out of control and let loose in misplaced blame.
Jane is not a monster for being put into a situation where she had to deal with Kenny. If she wanted him dead, she could have just threatened the baby outright, or used it as bait to lure him into a false sense of security, rather than forcing a brawl where he might easily overpower her. Was it the best idea? Probably not. But split-second decisions hardly are.
Great post. Yeah both Jane and Kenny were monsters. If Jane killed Kenny she would of become what she hated in Kenny and Kenny killing Jane … morewould of proven Jane right. The Clem and baby ending seemed right. They both lost their minds and wanted each other dead.
Jane is the best thing that could've happened to Clementine, the best person to come across after Lee. Kenny was a fucking time bomb, fuckin… moreg unstable, an old bitter angry man. Jane is the most reasonable and taught Clem more than Kenny ever has, the whole time Clem had to be the adult and calm Kenny down, what the fuck is that? I gladly shot him, so relieved and kinda happy for him cuz my Clementine believes he is seeing his family again.
This turned into a very long post. Sorry about that. I'm really not trying to wall you out with text. =P
Don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing on Kenny. Perhaps I came off a bit strong on that.
First, Carver controlled his compound with fear and armed zealots to his cause. Bonnie remarks that he used to be a different person, and that he was only doing what he thought was the best way for everyone to survive, basically apologizing for his behavior while at the same time being afraid, and just letting it happen because its easier than trying to go against him. Complacency is the same as consent. So yeah, she feels trapped. Carlos' group took the chance to escape from him, but even they managed to get pulled back into the fold. That would damage anybody's hopes for escape down the line.
If Kenny is anything, he is stubborn, and doesn't like being opposed. Even during the "dinner" conversations at the cabin Clem needs to curb his behavior. But he has Sarita, has seemed to have compartmentalized his previous loss, and looks to be pretty stable, if acting a bit unusual at times (as Sarita herself remarks to Clem), but then who isn't a tinge insane after everything that's happened to this world. Though I'm by no means a fan of Kenny's obnoxious impulses (nor was my Lee honestly), I do acknowledge the guy cares for the people closest to him, and would do anything to keep them safe.
After the lodge, he doesn't handle getting caught very well, and rather than listen to the people who have even any inkling to what was going on, and even Clem's own protests to just calm down and see how this plays out, decided to take matters into his own hands. It didn't matter in the end, but was a very reckless thing to do, under the protests of basically everyone else. and could have led to even more problems that could have cost lives.
Sarita's death hit him hard, to the point where he would even take it out on Clementine (despite whatever she decided to do). But he wasn't maniacal. He was just a depressed victim like a bunch of the people there. He was impulsive, and annoying, but he didn't give them a reason to distrust him, and they deferred to Clem's judgement. You say they didn't leave him alone and forced him to help, but that isn't true. They gave him a lot of time to himself.They needed someone with baby experience to care for the newborn, and Kenny was the right man for the job at the time. It would give him a new sense of purpose (he even reflects on why Carver didn't just kill him, once again noting his long standing desire for the release of death).
After that baby is born, you start to notice a slight change in his behavior. Lashing out at Luke, holding the baby from its own mother. And then, despite the other protests, he pushes the group forward to chase his goals that no one really even agreed to. It is why Rebecca got too tired out to go on. Granted, there's no guarantee she wasn't going to bite the bullet anyway, but forcing her on a march before she's recovered contributed greatly to her demise. It also leads them into that ambush. Not that it probably wasn't coming their way, but now they're not fighting from a fortified position. Already Kenny's stubbornness and ill thinking is causing harm. But you can't place all the blame on him directly. Jane did take that gun, and Arvo did bring his violent group down upon our unsuspecting group.
But Kenny just flies further off the deep end, even after Jane comes back and helps them out, willing to participate with and assimilate into the group for Clementines sake. They did spend a good amount of time together getting to know each other better, and Clem was starting to get through her cold heart. She doesn't dislike Jane for doing what she has to do (hell, she stayed in part just to confirm with her eyes that Carver was dead), but doesn't want her to have to do the things she does to survive alone.
Jane herself is no saint, and I'll be the first to admit it. Neither is Kenny. Or Clementine. Or anyone in this universe. They all have their demons. Its how they deal with them in the course of continuing to survive. Jane has shown a willingness to be influenced by Clem toward changing part of her distrustful nature. The girl is in her early to mid twenties, and was forced by her sister to abandon her sister (which contributed to her distrustful nature) and she blames herself for it. So naturally she takes a shining to Clem as a surrogate, just as Kenny is using the baby to fuel his own survival (remember, he was contemplating suicide before Clem talks him into living for the baby's sake).
Kenny starts to fly off the handle after the attack is quelled. We know his emotions are high because the baby's safety was threatened, but the baby is still safe, and the remaining surviving attacker has surrendered and offered his supplies and shelter as an offer of peace, yet Kenny is unable to keep his emotions in check. Even as everyone is yelling at him, he is screaming and pushing and wailing on the defenseless guy. Kenny only begrudgingly accepts, yet still remains openly abusive when there is no call for that behavior. Arvo is just a desperate guy in a desperate situation (who also just recently lost his sister), though we don't really get to have any extended sequences to actually get to know him better. Its anyone's best guess as to what led him to this point, or what his intentions are. Of course you can remain suspicious. You can even remain stern. But Kenny sees everything this guy does as a threat, or at least uses every new problem that arises as an excuse to openly abuse the guy. It is obvious by this point that the guy is really starting to lose it. Everyone is witnessing his breakdown, he's using this baby's safety as a means to justify his anger and abuse, and then when he can get alone and finally settle down, all he wants to do is apologize and appeal to Clem for his actions. Maybe he is genuinely sorry. It's understandable for his tensions to be running high at this point, even if he is making everyone uncomfortable around him.
Note that Jane doesn't really have any extended interactions with him at any point, and is only observing his behavior from an outside perspective. Its just that this behavior is having an (again obvious) negative affect on Clem's own psyche, as everyone is relying on her to turn him around, or at least be able to stop him from going over the edge. And even Clem doesn't know if she can do it, commenting that she's never seen him like this before, but apologizing for the way he's beginning to act. Jane claims she has seen this behavior before all too often (probably from having been a part of other groups) and knows where it leads, and just wants to warn Clementine, who of course she's taken a shining to. Its not that she outright despises Kenny, but his current behavior is on a destructive path, and will end up damning the whole group. She has every right to be skeptical and want to protect Clem from that eventual fallout.'
Who knows how long Carver has been like he was. I doubt it was immediately after the apocalypse. I'm betting that it was a downward spiral from the loss of the very people he cared about and wanted to protect. I'm sure there were a lot of people who knew his good side and decided to stick by him, despite the fact that, in the name of survival, he began committing more and more atrocities. He would let his anger get out of control and punish people for petty offences, or even things beyond their control. He began using fear to control people, he decides everything that happens, saying its for the best interests of the group, and can otherwise do as he pleases. Kenny isn't so far gone yet, but he is openly letting his emotions make him violent toward a bound, cooperating prisoner when there is no need or call for that. And when they get to the iced lake, and Arvo takes off (a stupid, but not unreasonable impulse), Kenny loses his shit and decides to punish the guy by beating him to death, in front of everybody, despite all the protests and attempts to stop him, even by Clem herself, until she gets hit in the face. And after that, all he can do is snide at her ("What? You lost your taste for this already?").
Is it any wonder that everyone is scared? Bonnie is probably getting flashbacks to Carver's own behavior, who knows how long Mike was a part of that community, but we can't assume he's stupid or unreasonable, and of course he's against Kenny's actions and building sympathy toward Arvo's situation. All Kenny has proven so far is that he's irrational and prone to violence, despite being useful in certain regards. And now that they have some supplies and an opportunity to think for themselves, they want to do what is best for the baby and their own future. Everybody thinks that going back will be the best option. They know where it is, its relatively close by, and it will have everything they need, sans a dictator. But all Kenny wants to do is run them ragged searching for some place that might not even exist. He deflects all appeals to his logic, gets angry even when Clem sides with the clearly better idea (thinking, of course, for the actual safety of the baby) and then just storms off like everything is already decided. I agree that it wasn't a good idea for Mike and Bonnie to act as they did, taking all the supplies and abandoning Clem and the baby to Kenny, but I'm also not going to pretend like their actions aren't also understandable. I didn't particularly like them for that situation either, but I wasn't going to fight them. Kenny's current behavior frightened them, and they would have no need to have acted as they did otherwise.
It is only because Clem is unconscious that Jane is even tagging along as Kenny drives them, and a newborn baby without any food, into a blinding snowstorm, while still in an angry fit. Of course she's against him right now. He's still not listening that they need to head back for the baby's sake, and now his actions have resulted in Clem's current condition. He is only going to get all of them killed. But she knows that Clem won't abandon him, despite that she's been trying to get her to do just that. Even when the opportunity arrived to just turn the truck around (when Kenny got out of it) and leave the madman to his own devices. So when Walkers show up, and the truck gets messed up, and everybody is forced to scatter, she really only has one recourse left. She cares about Clem and wants the baby to survive for her sake, and Kenny isn't going to be able to provide that as he now is. His actions are going to have the opposite effect, and he will end up, directly or not, causing the death of the baby, and maybe even Clementine herself.
Yes, she doesn't really know Kenny personally, having only just met up with him. But so far she's seen him blow his gasket on more than one occasion, and seen him refuse to listen to logic. and comparing it to the same behavior she says she's seen before. Only now she wants Clementine to be safe. And all she's seen is this man run this little girl ragged, putting her through an emotional ringer each time he goes off the handle (and there will be more times he does that). Causing her to be torn apart by her responsibility toward him (forced on her by the rest of the group who refused to deal with the situation themselves). And the game never gives Clem the opportunity to confront Kenny and give him an ultimatum. All she can do is get angry at him, and have him apologize again yet still not change anything.
So having now been dragged into this situation, and its likely that she won't even make it out alive, and she's not about to abandon Clementine, especially to this guy, she makes a decision. She didn't do it out of malice, or ill will, or because she's a monster. or because she's selfish, but because she refuses let things go on the way they are, and let this man lead them god knows where. There was no more room for her to continue to put up with him.
She lies about the baby to force the issue. And this is also for Clem's sake. She could easily have just killed the guy. She could have taken Clem and made a break for it. She could have confronted him directly, but he has already proven immune to people telling him what to do, and while he might not have killed her (though whose really to say) he would have been able to take the baby back and Clem would have continued to follow him. She couldn't give an ultimatum to Clem, because she would never abandon the baby, and Kenny would not have allowed the baby to be taken away from him either way. Lying at least affords him the opportunity to see that his actions and stubbornness have caused this situation, and ultimately the demise of the baby. But it had the (predictable) effect of causing him to (once again) loose his cool and misplace his blame.
As Clementine, you the player are either fine with Kenny's behavior up to this point or your not. I was not. I didn't think he had any excuse for his recent violence, and didn't think Jane deserved to be attacked for, while tragic, still an accident. This was just the same situation Clem would keep dealing with, and grew weary of not being able to bring Kenny back to his humanity before he does something atrocious.
Was what Jane did manipulative? Absolutely. Was Kenny himself not manipulative? I suppose he was more a "force people to do it my way" kind of person. But people attribute her actions as monstrous and unforgivable when I say they are anything but. You don't even know the girl beyond a few interactions leading up to the confrontation. On the other hand, you've seen Kenny slowly slipping away from what once made him a tolerable, and even a somewhat likable, human being. He even acknowledges this during his death scene. He knows he was being crazy, but couldn't stop himself. Ultimately, he was just looking for a way to die and end his pain. We thought we might have been able to save his humanity and ultimately his life with this baby, but it ended up making him even more paranoid and selfish in an attempt to keep it "safe".
And so our dynamic. No, Kenny hasn't done anything quite as bad as the stuff Carver use to get up to. But that's not what we're arguing. They were beginning to share behavioral quirks. Kenny beating Arvo was a direct parallel to same beating Kenny himself received after being snide to Carver. They are both prone to violent spurts based on their emotional integrity. They both stick to a "my way or the highway" philosophy. The difference is that Kenny's behavior only recently began to set it. The argument is that, left unchecked, it would have led him down darker roads, all for the "safety" of the baby and Clem. It really isn't that hard to draw parallels, even if Kenny wasn't (yet) as far gone.
I can see how some people might be angry with Jane, but to claim that all of this was her intent from the beginning? That she was maliciously egging him on for her selfishness? That her actions after being forced into a desperate situation were uncalled for? That they were anywhere near as harmful and destructive as what Kenny was doing? Kenny, tragically, wrought his own destruction. Jane just acted as a catalyst, because if not her, than it could easily have been Clem herself.
Kenny had a knife towards her chest, she could've stopped it anytime with three magic words "Baby is Alive" but instead she dragged it out, … moreit's clear she had a death wish and wanted blood to spill either way she wanted Kenny gone and wanted to do it at all costs even putting a baby's life at risk never mind her own because like I said she could've ended at anytime. Funny when she tells Clem to stay out of it then minutes later she calls out for Clem's help, she rather have Clem shoot her closest friend than end the conflict herself because I'm sure Clem saw enough to form an opinion for herself. This is why I don't buy her excuse of her not wanting it to go that far, that is how reckless she is. The problem with Jane is that she known Kenny a few days then decided she knows him more than Clementine does and compares him to a child beating handicapped murdering madman. It's not Kenny's fault Mike & Bonnie showed their true colors and deci… [view original content]
I'm gonna keep this short & simple. I'm not in a mood to get into a long debate considering I'm already debating with others.
First, Carver controlled his compound with fear and armed zealots to his cause. Bonnie remarks that he used to be a different person, and that he was only doing what he thought was the best way for everyone to survive, basically apologizing for his behavior while at the same time being afraid, and just letting it happen because its easier than trying to go against him. Complacency is the same as consent. So yeah, she feels trapped. Carlos' group took the chance to escape from him, but even they managed to get pulled back into the fold. That would damage anybody's hopes for escape down the line.
Do you see any connection to what Carver does with Kenny? Fear, Armed Zealots, Brutal Behavior. At least with Kenny you can freely debate with him.
If Kenny is anything, he is stubborn, and doesn't like being opposed. Even during the "dinner" conversations at the cabin Clem needs to curb his behavior. But he has Sarita, has seemed to have compartmentalized his previous loss, and looks to be pretty stable, if acting a bit unusual at times (as Sarita herself remarks to Clem), but then who isn't a tinge insane after everything that's happened to this world. Though I'm by no means a fan of Kenny's obnoxious impulses (nor was my Lee honestly), I do acknowledge the guy cares for the people closest to him, and would do anything to keep them safe.
You do know he reacted like that because of a rude dinner guest who is Nick.
After the lodge, he doesn't handle getting caught very well, and rather than listen to the people who have even any inkling to what was going on, and even Clem's own protests to just calm down and see how this plays out, decided to take matters into his own hands. It didn't matter in the end, but was a very reckless thing to do, under the protests of basically everyone else. and could have led to even more problems that could have cost lives.
He wanted to escape, not a good idea but that doesn't mean he's on a boat to crazy town to join Carver.
Sarita's death hit him hard, to the point where he would even take it out on Clementine (despite whatever she decided to do). But he wasn't maniacal. He was just a depressed victim like a bunch of the people there. He was impulsive, and annoying, but he didn't give them a reason to distrust him, and they deferred to Clem's judgement. You say they didn't leave him alone and forced him to help, but that isn't true. They gave him a lot of time to himself.They needed someone with baby experience to care for the newborn, and Kenny was the right man for the job at the time. It would give him a new sense of purpose (he even reflects on why Carver didn't just kill him, once again noting his long standing desire for the release of death).
He wanted to be left alone but the roped him back in only to bicker at him.
After that baby is born, you start to notice a slight change in his behavior. Lashing out at Luke, holding the baby from its own mother. And then, despite the other protests, he pushes the group forward to chase his goals that no one really even agreed to. It is why Rebecca got too tired out to go on. Granted, there's no guarantee she wasn't going to bite the bullet anyway, but forcing her on a march before she's recovered contributed greatly to her demise. It also leads them into that ambush. Not that it probably wasn't coming their way, but now they're not fighting from a fortified position. Already Kenny's stubbornness and ill thinking is causing harm. But you can't place all the blame on him directly. Jane did take that gun, and Arvo did bring his violent group down upon our unsuspecting group.
It's not like he lashed out at Luke just for the heck, remember he was supposed to keep watch but instead got it on with Jane. And he wanted to hold the baby because Rebecca was weak. The people in his group did not have any plan, only Kenny did and they followed it, you may think they didn't agree to it but they didn't protest to it either. Keeping it short, it's not his fault Rebecca died and Arvo's group ambushing them.
But Kenny just flies further off the deep end, even after Jane comes back and helps them out, willing to participate with and assimilate into the group for Clementines sake. They did spend a good amount of time together getting to know each other better, and Clem was starting to get through her cold heart. She doesn't dislike Jane for doing what she has to do (hell, she stayed in part just to confirm with her eyes that Carver was dead), but doesn't want her to have to do the things she does to survive alone.
We know this already about Jane & Clementine.
Jane herself is no saint, and I'll be the first to admit it. Neither is Kenny. Or Clementine. Or anyone in this universe. They all have their demons. Its how they deal with them in the course of continuing to survive. Jane has shown a willingness to be influenced by Clem toward changing part of her distrustful nature. The girl is in her early to mid twenties, and was forced by her sister to abandon her sister (which contributed to her distrustful nature) and she blames herself for it. So naturally she takes a shining to Clem as a surrogate, just as Kenny is using the baby to fuel his own survival (remember, he was contemplating suicide before Clem talks him into living for the baby's sake).
Yeah we know the story, Jane gives up on weak people easily which is how I see it.
Kenny starts to fly off the handle after the attack is quelled. We know his emotions are high because the baby's safety was threatened, but the baby is still safe, and the remaining surviving attacker has surrendered and offered his supplies and shelter as an offer of peace, yet Kenny is unable to keep his emotions in check. Even as everyone is yelling at him, he is screaming and pushing and wailing on the defenseless guy. Kenny only begrudgingly accepts, yet still remains openly abusive when there is no call for that behavior. Arvo is just a desperate guy in a desperate situation (who also just recently lost his sister), though we don't really get to have any extended sequences to actually get to know him better. Its anyone's best guess as to what led him to this point, or what his intentions are. Of course you can remain suspicious. You can even remain stern. But Kenny sees everything this guy does as a threat, or at least uses every new problem that arises as an excuse to openly abuse the guy. It is obvious by this point that the guy is really starting to lose it. Everyone is witnessing his breakdown, he's using this baby's safety as a means to justify his anger and abuse, and then when he can get alone and finally settle down, all he wants to do is apologize and appeal to Clem for his actions. Maybe he is genuinely sorry. It's understandable for his tensions to be running high at this point, even if he is making everyone uncomfortable around him.
Arvo nearly got his group killed and he can't handle being pushed and swore at. You expect Kenny to be nice to him the way Bonnie & Mike are? In the end, Kenny was right about him. Never once did he use AJ as an excuse for his actions.
Note that Jane doesn't really have any extended interactions with him at any point, and is only observing his behavior from an outside perspective. Its just that this behavior is having an (again obvious) negative affect on Clem's own psyche, as everyone is relying on her to turn him around, or at least be able to stop him from going over the edge. And even Clem doesn't know if she can do it, commenting that she's never seen him like this before, but apologizing for the way he's beginning to act. Jane claims she has seen this behavior before all too often (probably from having been a part of other groups) and knows where it leads, and just wants to warn Clementine, who of course she's taken a shining to. Its not that she outright despises Kenny, but his current behavior is on a destructive path, and will end up damning the whole group. She has every right to be skeptical and want to protect Clem from that eventual fallout.'
And this is her problem, she thinks she knows the guy more than the people who know him only after a couple of days. She can warn Clementine all she wants but she's selfishly trying to turn her against him is what I don't like.
Who knows how long Carver has been like he was. I doubt it was immediately after the apocalypse. I'm betting that it was a downward spiral from the loss of the very people he cared about and wanted to protect. I'm sure there were a lot of people who knew his good side and decided to stick by him, despite the fact that, in the name of survival, he began committing more and more atrocities. He would let his anger get out of control and punish people for petty offences, or even things beyond their control. He began using fear to control people, he decides everything that happens, saying its for the best interests of the group, and can otherwise do as he pleases. Kenny isn't so far gone yet, but he is openly letting his emotions make him violent toward a bound, cooperating prisoner when there is no need or call for that. And when they get to the iced lake, and Arvo takes off (a stupid, but not unreasonable impulse), Kenny loses his shit and decides to punish the guy by beating him to death, in front of everybody, despite all the protests and attempts to stop him, even by Clem herself, until she gets hit in the face. And after that, all he can do is snide at her ("What? You lost your taste for this already?").
Simple, we don't anything about him to compare his lifestyle to Kenny's. Kenny only took his anger out on Arvo, not anybody else and he just beat Arvo not even close to death.
Is it any wonder that everyone is scared? Bonnie is probably getting flashbacks to Carver's own behavior, who knows how long Mike was a part of that community, but we can't assume he's stupid or unreasonable, and of course he's against Kenny's actions and building sympathy toward Arvo's situation. All Kenny has proven so far is that he's irrational and prone to violence, despite being useful in certain regards. And now that they have some supplies and an opportunity to think for themselves, they want to do what is best for the baby and their own future. Everybody thinks that going back will be the best option. They know where it is, its relatively close by, and it will have everything they need, sans a dictator. But all Kenny wants to do is run them ragged searching for some place that might not even exist. He deflects all appeals to his logic, gets angry even when Clem sides with the clearly better idea (thinking, of course, for the actual safety of the baby) and then just storms off like everything is already decided. I agree that it wasn't a good idea for Mike and Bonnie to act as they did, taking all the supplies and abandoning Clem and the baby to Kenny, but I'm also not going to pretend like their actions aren't also understandable. I didn't particularly like them for that situation either, but I wasn't going to fight them. Kenny's current behavior frightened them, and they would have no need to have acted as they did otherwise.
Bonnie never compared Kenny to Carver so we can't assume she's thinking that way. Mike wanted to go to Texas whereas Bonnie wanted to go back to the hardware store and this was two days after deciding to go to Wellington, they never said anything then but now they're speaking about it, anyone would lose it like Kenny did. That was the first time he lost it with them. Bonnie & Mike showed that they were selfish cowards that looked out for themselves and would rather hang with someone like Arvo, taking supplies and a working car they never fixed. There was no excuse for that. Both of them stuck it out with Carver but would ditch a man, a little girl that saved them and a baby out in the wilderness, there's no excuse for that.
It is only because Clem is unconscious that Jane is even tagging along as Kenny drives them, and a newborn baby without any food, into a blinding snowstorm, while still in an angry fit. Of course she's against him right now. He's still not listening that they need to head back for the baby's sake, and now his actions have resulted in Clem's current condition. He is only going to get all of them killed. But she knows that Clem won't abandon him, despite that she's been trying to get her to do just that. Even when the opportunity arrived to just turn the truck around (when Kenny got out of it) and leave the madman to his own devices. So when Walkers show up, and the truck gets messed up, and everybody is forced to scatter, she really only has one recourse left. She cares about Clem and wants the baby to survive for her sake, and Kenny isn't going to be able to provide that as he now is. His actions are going to have the opposite effect, and he will end up, directly or not, causing the death of the baby, and maybe even Clementine herself.
Because Jane was pissing him off in the car. And you're blaming him for two idiots giving a Russian that had it out for her a gun? And causing the death of Clem & the baby? The Wellington ending debunks this.
Yes, she doesn't really know Kenny personally, having only just met up with him. But so far she's seen him blow his gasket on more than one occasion, and seen him refuse to listen to logic. and comparing it to the same behavior she says she's seen before. Only now she wants Clementine to be safe. And all she's seen is this man run this little girl ragged, putting her through an emotional ringer each time he goes off the handle (and there will be more times he does that). Causing her to be torn apart by her responsibility toward him (forced on her by the rest of the group who refused to deal with the situation themselves). And the game never gives Clem the opportunity to confront Kenny and give him an ultimatum. All she can do is get angry at him, and have him apologize again yet still not change anything.
And that's where her problem is. She doesn't know him yet thinks she knows him more than Clem does. The game never gave us a choice to tell Jane about Kenny's past like Ben for example, you know Carver would've killed someone like him as he did with Reggie due to the mistakes but Kenny didn't.
So having now been dragged into this situation, and its likely that she won't even make it out alive, and she's not about to abandon Clementine, especially to this guy, she makes a decision. She didn't do it out of malice, or ill will, or because she's a monster. or because she's selfish, but because she refuses let things go on the way they are, and let this man lead them god knows where. There was no more room for her to continue to put up with him.
So she selfishly puts a baby in danger and puts a girl in a position where she has to kill her friend just to prove a point.
She lies about the baby to force the issue. And this is also for Clem's sake. She could easily have just killed the guy. She could have taken Clem and made a break for it. She could have confronted him directly, but he has already proven immune to people telling him what to do, and while he might not have killed her (though whose really to say) he would have been able to take the baby back and Clem would have continued to follow him. She couldn't give an ultimatum to Clem, because she would never abandon the baby, and Kenny would not have allowed the baby to be taken away from him either way. Lying at least affords him the opportunity to see that his actions and stubbornness have caused this situation, and ultimately the demise of the baby. But it had the (predictable) effect of causing him to (once again) loose his cool and misplace his blame.
She wanted a violent reaction from him, she wanted him gone and created this ruse to set him off. She could've ended it at any time but didn't. She didn't give the guys plan a chance.
As Clementine, you the player are either fine with Kenny's behavior up to this point or your not. I was not. I didn't think he had any excuse for his recent violence, and didn't think Jane deserved to be attacked for, while tragic, still an accident. This was just the same situation Clem would keep dealing with, and grew weary of not being able to bring Kenny back to his humanity before he does something atrocious.
Mike, Bonnie & Jane were against Kenny before his attack on Jane but he still kept it together. Clem dealing with it? Kenny has done nothing but talk to Clem in kindness.
Was what Jane did manipulative? Absolutely. Was Kenny himself not manipulative? I suppose he was more a "force people to do it my way" kind of person. But people attribute her actions as monstrous and unforgivable when I say they are anything but. You don't even know the girl beyond a few interactions leading up to the confrontation. On the other hand, you've seen Kenny slowly slipping away from what once made him a tolerable, and even a somewhat likable, human being. He even acknowledges this during his death scene. He knows he was being crazy, but couldn't stop himself. Ultimately, he was just looking for a way to die and end his pain. We thought we might have been able to save his humanity and ultimately his life with this baby, but it ended up making him even more paranoid and selfish in an attempt to keep it "safe".
Jane was a liar, a manipulator, reckless & selfish. Jane thwarted what could've been a happy ending, finding Wellington and convincing them to take Clementine & AJ and Jane would've saw this side of him but like I said, she didn't give him a chance but antagonize him.
And so our dynamic. No, Kenny hasn't done anything quite as bad as the stuff Carver use to get up to. But that's not what we're arguing. They were beginning to share behavioral quirks. Kenny beating Arvo was a direct parallel to same beating Kenny himself received after being snide to Carver. They are both prone to violent spurts based on their emotional integrity. They both stick to a "my way or the highway" philosophy. The difference is that Kenny's behavior only recently began to set it. The argument is that, left unchecked, it would have led him down darker roads, all for the "safety" of the baby and Clem. It really isn't that hard to draw parallels, even if Kenny wasn't (yet) as far gone.
Kenny was like this back in Season 1 when he lost Duck & Katjaa but still came back meanwhile Carver is a tyrant in 2 years while Kenny is still his good self from Season 1.
I can see how some people might be angry with Jane, but to claim that all of this was her intent from the beginning? That she was maliciously egging him on for her selfishness? That her actions after being forced into a desperate situation were uncalled for? That they were anywhere near as harmful and destructive as what Kenny was doing? Kenny, tragically, wrought his own destruction. Jane just acted as a catalyst, because if not her, than it could easily have been Clem herself.
Jane was selfish, didn't want to hear Clementine out but acted on her own merits. The Wellington ending proves her wrong.
This turned into a very long post. Sorry about that. I'm really not trying to wall you out with text. =P
Don't get me wrong. I'm not bash… moreing on Kenny. Perhaps I came off a bit strong on that.
First, Carver controlled his compound with fear and armed zealots to his cause. Bonnie remarks that he used to be a different person, and that he was only doing what he thought was the best way for everyone to survive, basically apologizing for his behavior while at the same time being afraid, and just letting it happen because its easier than trying to go against him. Complacency is the same as consent. So yeah, she feels trapped. Carlos' group took the chance to escape from him, but even they managed to get pulled back into the fold. That would damage anybody's hopes for escape down the line.
If Kenny is anything, he is stubborn, and doesn't like being opposed. Even during the "dinner" conversations at the cabin Clem needs to curb his behavior… [view original content]
When I first heard AJ crying in the car after.... sigh, murdering Kenny, I literally felt my heart skip a beat. I couldn't believe what she did. If Jane didn't pull this stunt off, we'd just try to survive the storm together. I never felt so disgusted for a video game character before, and so I told her straight up. She is fucking crazy! Pushing Clem to kill her friend, using the baby as a means to manipulate a mentally unstable, heartbroken man into wanting to kill Jane. I couldn't forgive her. When she tried explaining herself, I couldn't understand any of it. She had Clem kill Kenny... for Clem?
Along that line of thinking, Jane was a bomb and she went off...needlessly causing a death or killing herself for no reason. To everyone who says Kenny was losing it....how much better would any of us do in the same situation with everything he has been through? No one knows for sure but no one can say for sure if Kenny "would have" broken.....at least he didn't lie about losing a newborn baby to start a fight, steal the truck and your supplies....you get my point?
Regardless, your opinion is your own so I am just giving mine. Kenny was never my favorite but he always was there and never two-faced or lied, no matter if his little childish, temper tantrums pissed me off sometimes, unlike some others over the 2 seasons.
Fuck Arvo too.....he knew you didn't steal his shit but still set upon you with his broke ass group. They could have talked first, but they chose violence...unfortunately for Arvo he was with the wrong group.
Kenny told Jane that nobody cared about her, that's pretty fucking cold in my book. Yes Jane insulting his family and eye was cold as well b… moreut Kenny did just as bad.
Jane gave Clem a fuck ton of survival tips as well as saved her ass a few times, she killed Vitali to save the group and she risks her life to save Clem if she falls through the ice, Jane also came back for Clem which shows she cares. Meanwhile Kenny went all Carver and started to beat Arvo when he was already tied up and in bad shape and he through him to the ground multiple times just because he was mad, not to mention all of the racist comments he had. Fuck Kenny.
I had a hard choice when given the option because I wasn't sure what to do for a moment....but I remembered when Lee said (in the dream) that family and the group is important. Jane wasn't "family" yet and barely part of the group since she just returned. On the other hand, Kenny willing to kill her without knowing why was making me wonder if I was next.
I chose to believe that since Kenny was family and I had a gun, I would let him do what he wanted, if he came after me then he would have been dead like Jane. After finding the baby alive I was absolutely GLAD that I chose Kenny......saving Jane would've made me feel guilty beyond belief.
I take the logical paths with Clem, insomuch as Telltale 'allows' you to do so (which isn't much). That said, initially I DID shoot Kenny b… moreecause his spiral of instability had become dangerous, but when Jane revealed her plan to show Kenny was a psychopath that needed to be put down it simply lacked sound, REASONED logic to the point of being a sociopathic decision. She absolutely DID intend to fight Kenny to the death, regardless of what any of you apologizers say. She refused repeated attempts to diffuse the situation, run away, or in any way reveal her ruse right up to the end, hoping all the while that Clementine would leap to her support and kill him. This is unbalanced and dangerous thinking -- and worse than that -- she would gladly make a killer of Clementine to prove a point, something Kenny has never done. Meanwhile, for Kenny this was simply the last straw in a long line of fuck-ups and he snapped. His behavior wasn't right, … [view original content]
Not too many innocent people left in TWD universe....maybe newborn babies and very young kids.....Arvo was not innocent...young but not innocent. He could have spoken up when his group encountered yours and explained that CLEM took NOTHING and JANE took it, and she wasn't there then. That little shitbird chose to stay quiet......he was FAR from innocent.
Really, I do not understand all the Jane hate? The baby was in a car, safe and she felt confident she could handle Kenny. Keep in mind tha… moret Jane was trying to prove something to Clementine. Kenny was turning into another Carver, he even admitted he lost himself if you shoot him. There is no way that I can trust someone who beats on an innocent man (Arvo) and feels justified.
Remember why Bonnie and Mike were leaving, they feared for their lives with Kenny. The man was broken and I would have been afraid for Clementine if she stayed with him.
It was reckless, but she proved her point. Kenny trying to kill her over what she said was an accident is going too far, and he is the type … moreof person that always has to have his way. Jane sees Clem as a younger sister I think, and that's why she is so protective.
I think Clem will be safer with Jane than with Kenny
you can't just keep pressing hot button with kenny....it's as if she's asking for it....
Kenny is just aggressive and lack rationale...plus he lost his loved ones....i'm sure parents would have hard time recovering from losing their spouse or children.
And how do you figure that? Based on the last confrontation? Where it was just her, and prepubescent kid you've grown attached to, and an un… morehinged, proven violent grown ass man? Where she was sick of seeing Clementine make excuses for Kenny violent behavior, and caring for her, made the baby as safe as she could so she could deal with a difficult situation to try and make Clementine see Kenny was out of road? She knew it would be a risk of her own life to provoke him, but if not then, then when? When he starts killing actually innocent people? So Clem can whine that he didn't mean it, and is actually a good person underneath? Sound familiar?
Jane was desperate and showed great character growth putting her own life on the line to try and convince a storyline railroaded Clementine that, however much a good person Kenny was in the past, he was no longer a person who listens to reason. That however apologetic he gets, he is too prone to violen… [view original content]
Look what Jane did could have been done another way. However it happened it proved the fact that Kenny is just unstable. Yes he is loyal but look at everyone else in the group that is scared to be with him. Kenny didn't even try to listen to why or what happened, he just jumped straight into rage and tried to kill Jane. I still think Jane is however caring towards Clem just like Kenny was. She is doing most of her actions in terms to protect her. She came back for her, she tried to save her from kenny, if he did ever break and she has skill and knowledge more than anyone I met (other than molly) to date about survival. She can teach Clem new cool tricks and the way she spoke at the end of season 2 episode 5 again shows that she really does care for Clem.
Edit: Also Jane got along with the group. It was only Kenny she found hard to deal with, like everyone else. I believe that if Kenny wasn't in this season at all and we meet Jane. She would have got along after what has happened. Lets think this in the real world terms as well. Kenny was a threat to the group. You would send him of or kill him if these things were happening.
Finally I said it before and will say it again. Kill Kenny so that TELLTALES CAN FOCUS ON OTHER FREAKING CHARACTERS.
I've always wondered this. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU ACCIDENTALLY KILL A BABY?!? If he froze then she could of at least brought the body, but when she didn't bring him at all it seems like she "accidentally" threw him to a crowd of walkers to get away safely. And the whole "I didn't mean for it to go this far." bullshit. How fucking far did she think it was going to go? She pulled out her knife at first, and at any point she could of stopped and said "Kenny I J.K. bro, BB in dat car over dere." Kenny:"O Sheit u got meh Jane."
Both were crazy. I killed Kenny and I was a big fan of his. I sat with him at ep2. Agreed with him nearly all the time. But I couldn't let h… moreim kill Jane. She said it was an accident. He had no proof. I thought maybe Jane could of let the baby die, But then I thought, She might not be a fan of the baby, But i don't think she would go that far. I left Jane after her lies. My Clem may just be with the baby, But at least she is without Kenny's or Jane's or Bonnie's or Mike's.
I'm gonna keep this short & simple. I'm not in a mood to get into a long debate considering I'm already debating with others.
Firs… moret, Carver controlled his compound with fear and armed zealots to his cause. Bonnie remarks that he used to be a different person, and that he was only doing what he thought was the best way for everyone to survive, basically apologizing for his behavior while at the same time being afraid, and just letting it happen because its easier than trying to go against him. Complacency is the same as consent. So yeah, she feels trapped. Carlos' group took the chance to escape from him, but even they managed to get pulled back into the fold. That would damage anybody's hopes for escape down the line.
Do you see any connection to what Carver does with Kenny? Fear, Armed Zealots, Brutal Behavior. At least with Kenny you can freely debate with him.
If Kenny is anything, he is stubborn, and doesn't like b… [view original content]
I don't hate Jane but letting Kenny kill her was the right thing to do. They were clearly in a fight to the death and at least it was clear to me that Jane instigated the whole thing.
Her plan was to provoke Kenny to violence and kill him so she could have Clem to her self. It was entrapment. She knew what she was making it look like and her weak defense of "it was an accident" was ridiculous. How do you accidentally kill a baby...if the baby was dead and she wasn't it is pretty obvious what happened and leaving the baby alone in a car crying with walkers around in order to provoke someone in to a murderous rage to try to prove a point....well Jane didn't have to die, she got herself killed.
Killing Kenny is murder and betrayal unless you fell for her accident excuse even though she tipped you off she was setting Kenny up.
Kenny wasn't that bad or out of control. Sure he had some rage but he clearly had the best method of dealing with Arvo. Dude could not be trusted rightly or wrongly he was with a group you just had a shootout with and you killed all his friends. It is just like the deal with Randle on the TV show.....they could either kill him or ditch him but they can't keep him as part of the group. He was a prisoner you were forcing to lead you to supplies. He is just buying time till he can escape, whether there was actually supplies was 50-50...he could have been playing his only card hoping to be freed or he could have just been stalling to escape. The realities of how things turned out don't matter to the in the moment decisions....you don't make choices based on hindsight (at least on your first play through).
Going North was correct....cold protects from walkers.
Kenny is just a bit emotional but the dude has been through a ton and he keeps going and does what he thinks is right and has the best interests of his closest allies and the group in mind. Kenny can be an ass and a bit petty if you hate him but that is just the design of the game.
From a moral standpoint choosing Jane is wrong unless she tricked you. You know Kenny would never abandon a friend and Jane had already proven she would.
Jane was just super upset that Kenny didn't take her to bed the way Luke did. Kenny tried to let her down gently but said he didn't want to get infected by many of the std's she was sure to be carrying.
Her sister wasn't suicidal over Jane pushing her hard, she was suicidal because of the world so Jane pushed her hard to keep moving. Also yes, abandoning Sarah and tricking Kenny was bs, but we've had enough threads on this and it's ruining the forums. She has good qualities too but of course they get left out of threads like this. Why do we need hate threads?
Better than people saying people who got the Jane finale got the wrong or lesser ending. I hate those. Telltale give us what we ask for and all people do is hate the fact that people got different versions. It really is stupid
Better than people saying people who got the Jane finale got the wrong or lesser ending. I hate those. Telltale give us what we ask for and all people do is hate the fact that people got different versions. It really is stupid
Her sister wasn't suicidal over Jane pushing her hard, she was suicidal because of the world so Jane pushed her hard to keep moving. Also ye… mores, abandoning Sarah and tricking Kenny was bs, but we've had enough threads on this and it's ruining the forums. She has good qualities too but of course they get left out of threads like this. Why do we need hate threads?
Comments
That is depression. He has been depressed for a long time. It is why he's so irrational and prone to violence, because depression brings out your worst characteristics. He is unable to handle his emotions and uses his loss to justify flying off the handle and beating people who piss him off, and disregard anyone who disagrees with him.
He's a tragic figure, once a pretty good guy looking out for his family, now lying to himself and acting on emotional impulses to deal with the constant pain he feels, which keeps being inflicted upon him.
His attachment to the baby (and Clementine) was unhealthy. He was using them as anchors to his humanity when he got completely out of control. And that wasn't fair to either of the children, with Clementine pained by the responsibility of looking after this old psycho, completely unsure of how to help him.
His death gave him clarity. Knowing he would no longer have to go on with all the guilt and the pain, his belief that he would be reunited with his lost loved ones, whose loss was causing him the pain that caused him to lash out and inflict more pain, gave him peace.
The life of the baby is irrelevant. Kenny accepted his death based on all the depression built up over his life rather than that one specific death. It was merely the catalyst to his next rampage of his self-imposed justice. His death made him truly apologetic, and finally brought him the relief he was long looking for.
FUCK JANE? YES... but the BIGGEST fuck you goes to bonnie and mike and also ARVO the "russkies"
Was just about to say this. Jane booked it the instant that truck stopped and Clem was left alone in a blizzard.
Kenny put himself in that situation. He dragged all of them through a blinding snowstorm in the zombie apocalypse looking for a place that may not even exist. When he gets out of the truck, and things go from bad to worse, Jane obviously knew (as the yelling during the drive was proving) that nothing short of extreme measures was going to get through to him. So she concocted a plan to force the issue. Either he remained civil, realized what his constant pushing and stubbornness has wrought, became repentant and settled the fuck down, or he let his anger get the better of him (for the umpteenth time) and lash out with his misplaced blame, to the point that he was willing to kill. And Jane was willing to defend herself if it came to that. But revealing the baby was actually alive wouldn't have solved anything, whether it would have stopped the fight or not. She risked being killed by an enraged Kenny for the sake of Clem and, by extension, the baby itself.
She is not "fucked up" for being forced to come up with a way to deal with an dire situation, caused and being fueled by a stubborn madman that won't listen to reason. You say he cares for Clem and the baby, but then he ignores all logic of their care for whatever goal he needs to focus on to keep the pain of his losses at bay. He is merely using them as anchors for his humanity, so he can justify his loss and pain by lashing out with his emotions. And those emotions could hurt the very things he wants to protect.
He is blinded by his depression and Jane has seen it play out before. Mike and Bonnie have seen it play out before. Clementine has lived through it and there was only one way to put an end to it. Yet instead of outright killing Kenny to stop him, she tried a ploy to force an emotional shift, mostly because she didn't have any other option available to her, and admittedly because she might have been a little PO'd at Kenny for dragging them all into the situation in the first place.
Wrong. Jane didn't want Kenny dead, she just knew how the situation was going to play out. And having been dragged into, and basically forced to get lost in, a blinding snowstorm, out of desperation (and a caring nature toward Clementine) she concocted a plan to force an emotional shift. Either Kenny would take the loss in stride, realize it was his unstable and stubborn nature that was the cause, and calm the fuck down, or (predictably) he would let his sadness and anger get out of control and let loose in misplaced blame.
Jane is not a monster for being put into a situation where she had to deal with Kenny. If she wanted him dead, she could have just threatened the baby outright, or used it as bait to lure him into a false sense of security, rather than forcing a brawl where he might easily overpower her. Was it the best idea? Probably not. But split-second decisions hardly are.
She put Clementine and AJ in danger by pissing off Kenny to fight him to the death just to prove a point...
She ain't a best person to come across after Lee...Nobody is...
This turned into a very long post. Sorry about that. I'm really not trying to wall you out with text. =P
Don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing on Kenny. Perhaps I came off a bit strong on that.
First, Carver controlled his compound with fear and armed zealots to his cause. Bonnie remarks that he used to be a different person, and that he was only doing what he thought was the best way for everyone to survive, basically apologizing for his behavior while at the same time being afraid, and just letting it happen because its easier than trying to go against him. Complacency is the same as consent. So yeah, she feels trapped. Carlos' group took the chance to escape from him, but even they managed to get pulled back into the fold. That would damage anybody's hopes for escape down the line.
If Kenny is anything, he is stubborn, and doesn't like being opposed. Even during the "dinner" conversations at the cabin Clem needs to curb his behavior. But he has Sarita, has seemed to have compartmentalized his previous loss, and looks to be pretty stable, if acting a bit unusual at times (as Sarita herself remarks to Clem), but then who isn't a tinge insane after everything that's happened to this world. Though I'm by no means a fan of Kenny's obnoxious impulses (nor was my Lee honestly), I do acknowledge the guy cares for the people closest to him, and would do anything to keep them safe.
After the lodge, he doesn't handle getting caught very well, and rather than listen to the people who have even any inkling to what was going on, and even Clem's own protests to just calm down and see how this plays out, decided to take matters into his own hands. It didn't matter in the end, but was a very reckless thing to do, under the protests of basically everyone else. and could have led to even more problems that could have cost lives.
Sarita's death hit him hard, to the point where he would even take it out on Clementine (despite whatever she decided to do). But he wasn't maniacal. He was just a depressed victim like a bunch of the people there. He was impulsive, and annoying, but he didn't give them a reason to distrust him, and they deferred to Clem's judgement. You say they didn't leave him alone and forced him to help, but that isn't true. They gave him a lot of time to himself.They needed someone with baby experience to care for the newborn, and Kenny was the right man for the job at the time. It would give him a new sense of purpose (he even reflects on why Carver didn't just kill him, once again noting his long standing desire for the release of death).
After that baby is born, you start to notice a slight change in his behavior. Lashing out at Luke, holding the baby from its own mother. And then, despite the other protests, he pushes the group forward to chase his goals that no one really even agreed to. It is why Rebecca got too tired out to go on. Granted, there's no guarantee she wasn't going to bite the bullet anyway, but forcing her on a march before she's recovered contributed greatly to her demise. It also leads them into that ambush. Not that it probably wasn't coming their way, but now they're not fighting from a fortified position. Already Kenny's stubbornness and ill thinking is causing harm. But you can't place all the blame on him directly. Jane did take that gun, and Arvo did bring his violent group down upon our unsuspecting group.
But Kenny just flies further off the deep end, even after Jane comes back and helps them out, willing to participate with and assimilate into the group for Clementines sake. They did spend a good amount of time together getting to know each other better, and Clem was starting to get through her cold heart. She doesn't dislike Jane for doing what she has to do (hell, she stayed in part just to confirm with her eyes that Carver was dead), but doesn't want her to have to do the things she does to survive alone.
Jane herself is no saint, and I'll be the first to admit it. Neither is Kenny. Or Clementine. Or anyone in this universe. They all have their demons. Its how they deal with them in the course of continuing to survive. Jane has shown a willingness to be influenced by Clem toward changing part of her distrustful nature. The girl is in her early to mid twenties, and was forced by her sister to abandon her sister (which contributed to her distrustful nature) and she blames herself for it. So naturally she takes a shining to Clem as a surrogate, just as Kenny is using the baby to fuel his own survival (remember, he was contemplating suicide before Clem talks him into living for the baby's sake).
Kenny starts to fly off the handle after the attack is quelled. We know his emotions are high because the baby's safety was threatened, but the baby is still safe, and the remaining surviving attacker has surrendered and offered his supplies and shelter as an offer of peace, yet Kenny is unable to keep his emotions in check. Even as everyone is yelling at him, he is screaming and pushing and wailing on the defenseless guy. Kenny only begrudgingly accepts, yet still remains openly abusive when there is no call for that behavior. Arvo is just a desperate guy in a desperate situation (who also just recently lost his sister), though we don't really get to have any extended sequences to actually get to know him better. Its anyone's best guess as to what led him to this point, or what his intentions are. Of course you can remain suspicious. You can even remain stern. But Kenny sees everything this guy does as a threat, or at least uses every new problem that arises as an excuse to openly abuse the guy. It is obvious by this point that the guy is really starting to lose it. Everyone is witnessing his breakdown, he's using this baby's safety as a means to justify his anger and abuse, and then when he can get alone and finally settle down, all he wants to do is apologize and appeal to Clem for his actions. Maybe he is genuinely sorry. It's understandable for his tensions to be running high at this point, even if he is making everyone uncomfortable around him.
Note that Jane doesn't really have any extended interactions with him at any point, and is only observing his behavior from an outside perspective. Its just that this behavior is having an (again obvious) negative affect on Clem's own psyche, as everyone is relying on her to turn him around, or at least be able to stop him from going over the edge. And even Clem doesn't know if she can do it, commenting that she's never seen him like this before, but apologizing for the way he's beginning to act. Jane claims she has seen this behavior before all too often (probably from having been a part of other groups) and knows where it leads, and just wants to warn Clementine, who of course she's taken a shining to. Its not that she outright despises Kenny, but his current behavior is on a destructive path, and will end up damning the whole group. She has every right to be skeptical and want to protect Clem from that eventual fallout.'
Who knows how long Carver has been like he was. I doubt it was immediately after the apocalypse. I'm betting that it was a downward spiral from the loss of the very people he cared about and wanted to protect. I'm sure there were a lot of people who knew his good side and decided to stick by him, despite the fact that, in the name of survival, he began committing more and more atrocities. He would let his anger get out of control and punish people for petty offences, or even things beyond their control. He began using fear to control people, he decides everything that happens, saying its for the best interests of the group, and can otherwise do as he pleases. Kenny isn't so far gone yet, but he is openly letting his emotions make him violent toward a bound, cooperating prisoner when there is no need or call for that. And when they get to the iced lake, and Arvo takes off (a stupid, but not unreasonable impulse), Kenny loses his shit and decides to punish the guy by beating him to death, in front of everybody, despite all the protests and attempts to stop him, even by Clem herself, until she gets hit in the face. And after that, all he can do is snide at her ("What? You lost your taste for this already?").
Is it any wonder that everyone is scared? Bonnie is probably getting flashbacks to Carver's own behavior, who knows how long Mike was a part of that community, but we can't assume he's stupid or unreasonable, and of course he's against Kenny's actions and building sympathy toward Arvo's situation. All Kenny has proven so far is that he's irrational and prone to violence, despite being useful in certain regards. And now that they have some supplies and an opportunity to think for themselves, they want to do what is best for the baby and their own future. Everybody thinks that going back will be the best option. They know where it is, its relatively close by, and it will have everything they need, sans a dictator. But all Kenny wants to do is run them ragged searching for some place that might not even exist. He deflects all appeals to his logic, gets angry even when Clem sides with the clearly better idea (thinking, of course, for the actual safety of the baby) and then just storms off like everything is already decided. I agree that it wasn't a good idea for Mike and Bonnie to act as they did, taking all the supplies and abandoning Clem and the baby to Kenny, but I'm also not going to pretend like their actions aren't also understandable. I didn't particularly like them for that situation either, but I wasn't going to fight them. Kenny's current behavior frightened them, and they would have no need to have acted as they did otherwise.
It is only because Clem is unconscious that Jane is even tagging along as Kenny drives them, and a newborn baby without any food, into a blinding snowstorm, while still in an angry fit. Of course she's against him right now. He's still not listening that they need to head back for the baby's sake, and now his actions have resulted in Clem's current condition. He is only going to get all of them killed. But she knows that Clem won't abandon him, despite that she's been trying to get her to do just that. Even when the opportunity arrived to just turn the truck around (when Kenny got out of it) and leave the madman to his own devices. So when Walkers show up, and the truck gets messed up, and everybody is forced to scatter, she really only has one recourse left. She cares about Clem and wants the baby to survive for her sake, and Kenny isn't going to be able to provide that as he now is. His actions are going to have the opposite effect, and he will end up, directly or not, causing the death of the baby, and maybe even Clementine herself.
Yes, she doesn't really know Kenny personally, having only just met up with him. But so far she's seen him blow his gasket on more than one occasion, and seen him refuse to listen to logic. and comparing it to the same behavior she says she's seen before. Only now she wants Clementine to be safe. And all she's seen is this man run this little girl ragged, putting her through an emotional ringer each time he goes off the handle (and there will be more times he does that). Causing her to be torn apart by her responsibility toward him (forced on her by the rest of the group who refused to deal with the situation themselves). And the game never gives Clem the opportunity to confront Kenny and give him an ultimatum. All she can do is get angry at him, and have him apologize again yet still not change anything.
So having now been dragged into this situation, and its likely that she won't even make it out alive, and she's not about to abandon Clementine, especially to this guy, she makes a decision. She didn't do it out of malice, or ill will, or because she's a monster. or because she's selfish, but because she refuses let things go on the way they are, and let this man lead them god knows where. There was no more room for her to continue to put up with him.
She lies about the baby to force the issue. And this is also for Clem's sake. She could easily have just killed the guy. She could have taken Clem and made a break for it. She could have confronted him directly, but he has already proven immune to people telling him what to do, and while he might not have killed her (though whose really to say) he would have been able to take the baby back and Clem would have continued to follow him. She couldn't give an ultimatum to Clem, because she would never abandon the baby, and Kenny would not have allowed the baby to be taken away from him either way. Lying at least affords him the opportunity to see that his actions and stubbornness have caused this situation, and ultimately the demise of the baby. But it had the (predictable) effect of causing him to (once again) loose his cool and misplace his blame.
As Clementine, you the player are either fine with Kenny's behavior up to this point or your not. I was not. I didn't think he had any excuse for his recent violence, and didn't think Jane deserved to be attacked for, while tragic, still an accident. This was just the same situation Clem would keep dealing with, and grew weary of not being able to bring Kenny back to his humanity before he does something atrocious.
Was what Jane did manipulative? Absolutely. Was Kenny himself not manipulative? I suppose he was more a "force people to do it my way" kind of person. But people attribute her actions as monstrous and unforgivable when I say they are anything but. You don't even know the girl beyond a few interactions leading up to the confrontation. On the other hand, you've seen Kenny slowly slipping away from what once made him a tolerable, and even a somewhat likable, human being. He even acknowledges this during his death scene. He knows he was being crazy, but couldn't stop himself. Ultimately, he was just looking for a way to die and end his pain. We thought we might have been able to save his humanity and ultimately his life with this baby, but it ended up making him even more paranoid and selfish in an attempt to keep it "safe".
And so our dynamic. No, Kenny hasn't done anything quite as bad as the stuff Carver use to get up to. But that's not what we're arguing. They were beginning to share behavioral quirks. Kenny beating Arvo was a direct parallel to same beating Kenny himself received after being snide to Carver. They are both prone to violent spurts based on their emotional integrity. They both stick to a "my way or the highway" philosophy. The difference is that Kenny's behavior only recently began to set it. The argument is that, left unchecked, it would have led him down darker roads, all for the "safety" of the baby and Clem. It really isn't that hard to draw parallels, even if Kenny wasn't (yet) as far gone.
I can see how some people might be angry with Jane, but to claim that all of this was her intent from the beginning? That she was maliciously egging him on for her selfishness? That her actions after being forced into a desperate situation were uncalled for? That they were anywhere near as harmful and destructive as what Kenny was doing? Kenny, tragically, wrought his own destruction. Jane just acted as a catalyst, because if not her, than it could easily have been Clem herself.
I'm gonna keep this short & simple. I'm not in a mood to get into a long debate considering I'm already debating with others.
Do you see any connection to what Carver does with Kenny? Fear, Armed Zealots, Brutal Behavior. At least with Kenny you can freely debate with him.
You do know he reacted like that because of a rude dinner guest who is Nick.
He wanted to escape, not a good idea but that doesn't mean he's on a boat to crazy town to join Carver.
He wanted to be left alone but the roped him back in only to bicker at him.
It's not like he lashed out at Luke just for the heck, remember he was supposed to keep watch but instead got it on with Jane. And he wanted to hold the baby because Rebecca was weak. The people in his group did not have any plan, only Kenny did and they followed it, you may think they didn't agree to it but they didn't protest to it either. Keeping it short, it's not his fault Rebecca died and Arvo's group ambushing them.
We know this already about Jane & Clementine.
Yeah we know the story, Jane gives up on weak people easily which is how I see it.
Arvo nearly got his group killed and he can't handle being pushed and swore at. You expect Kenny to be nice to him the way Bonnie & Mike are? In the end, Kenny was right about him. Never once did he use AJ as an excuse for his actions.
And this is her problem, she thinks she knows the guy more than the people who know him only after a couple of days. She can warn Clementine all she wants but she's selfishly trying to turn her against him is what I don't like.
Simple, we don't anything about him to compare his lifestyle to Kenny's. Kenny only took his anger out on Arvo, not anybody else and he just beat Arvo not even close to death.
Bonnie never compared Kenny to Carver so we can't assume she's thinking that way. Mike wanted to go to Texas whereas Bonnie wanted to go back to the hardware store and this was two days after deciding to go to Wellington, they never said anything then but now they're speaking about it, anyone would lose it like Kenny did. That was the first time he lost it with them. Bonnie & Mike showed that they were selfish cowards that looked out for themselves and would rather hang with someone like Arvo, taking supplies and a working car they never fixed. There was no excuse for that. Both of them stuck it out with Carver but would ditch a man, a little girl that saved them and a baby out in the wilderness, there's no excuse for that.
Because Jane was pissing him off in the car. And you're blaming him for two idiots giving a Russian that had it out for her a gun? And causing the death of Clem & the baby? The Wellington ending debunks this.
And that's where her problem is. She doesn't know him yet thinks she knows him more than Clem does. The game never gave us a choice to tell Jane about Kenny's past like Ben for example, you know Carver would've killed someone like him as he did with Reggie due to the mistakes but Kenny didn't.
So she selfishly puts a baby in danger and puts a girl in a position where she has to kill her friend just to prove a point.
She wanted a violent reaction from him, she wanted him gone and created this ruse to set him off. She could've ended it at any time but didn't. She didn't give the guys plan a chance.
Mike, Bonnie & Jane were against Kenny before his attack on Jane but he still kept it together. Clem dealing with it? Kenny has done nothing but talk to Clem in kindness.
Jane was a liar, a manipulator, reckless & selfish. Jane thwarted what could've been a happy ending, finding Wellington and convincing them to take Clementine & AJ and Jane would've saw this side of him but like I said, she didn't give him a chance but antagonize him.
Kenny was like this back in Season 1 when he lost Duck & Katjaa but still came back meanwhile Carver is a tyrant in 2 years while Kenny is still his good self from Season 1.
Jane was selfish, didn't want to hear Clementine out but acted on her own merits. The Wellington ending proves her wrong.
That;s mainly how I feel about it.
When I first heard AJ crying in the car after.... sigh, murdering Kenny, I literally felt my heart skip a beat. I couldn't believe what she did. If Jane didn't pull this stunt off, we'd just try to survive the storm together. I never felt so disgusted for a video game character before, and so I told her straight up. She is fucking crazy! Pushing Clem to kill her friend, using the baby as a means to manipulate a mentally unstable, heartbroken man into wanting to kill Jane. I couldn't forgive her. When she tried explaining herself, I couldn't understand any of it. She had Clem kill Kenny... for Clem?
Yeah. Fuck Jane.
After watching all the endings....yes...JANE IS A BITCH....want clem ALL FOR HERSELF.....
Along that line of thinking, Jane was a bomb and she went off...needlessly causing a death or killing herself for no reason. To everyone who says Kenny was losing it....how much better would any of us do in the same situation with everything he has been through? No one knows for sure but no one can say for sure if Kenny "would have" broken.....at least he didn't lie about losing a newborn baby to start a fight, steal the truck and your supplies....you get my point?
Regardless, your opinion is your own so I am just giving mine. Kenny was never my favorite but he always was there and never two-faced or lied, no matter if his little childish, temper tantrums pissed me off sometimes, unlike some others over the 2 seasons.
Fuck Arvo too.....he knew you didn't steal his shit but still set upon you with his broke ass group. They could have talked first, but they chose violence...unfortunately for Arvo he was with the wrong group.
Arvo can go die in a snowy hole for all I care.
I had a hard choice when given the option because I wasn't sure what to do for a moment....but I remembered when Lee said (in the dream) that family and the group is important. Jane wasn't "family" yet and barely part of the group since she just returned. On the other hand, Kenny willing to kill her without knowing why was making me wonder if I was next.
I chose to believe that since Kenny was family and I had a gun, I would let him do what he wanted, if he came after me then he would have been dead like Jane. After finding the baby alive I was absolutely GLAD that I chose Kenny......saving Jane would've made me feel guilty beyond belief.
Not too many innocent people left in TWD universe....maybe newborn babies and very young kids.....Arvo was not innocent...young but not innocent. He could have spoken up when his group encountered yours and explained that CLEM took NOTHING and JANE took it, and she wasn't there then. That little shitbird chose to stay quiet......he was FAR from innocent.
Fuck Jane.
wasn't even about proving the point... the problem was the baby issue....kenny was protecting the children..including clem.
FUCK JANE.
you can't just keep pressing hot button with kenny....it's as if she's asking for it....
Kenny is just aggressive and lack rationale...plus he lost his loved ones....i'm sure parents would have hard time recovering from losing their spouse or children.
I bet Merle would hate her... We all remember what Merle was like.
Look what Jane did could have been done another way. However it happened it proved the fact that Kenny is just unstable. Yes he is loyal but look at everyone else in the group that is scared to be with him. Kenny didn't even try to listen to why or what happened, he just jumped straight into rage and tried to kill Jane. I still think Jane is however caring towards Clem just like Kenny was. She is doing most of her actions in terms to protect her. She came back for her, she tried to save her from kenny, if he did ever break and she has skill and knowledge more than anyone I met (other than molly) to date about survival. She can teach Clem new cool tricks and the way she spoke at the end of season 2 episode 5 again shows that she really does care for Clem.
Edit: Also Jane got along with the group. It was only Kenny she found hard to deal with, like everyone else. I believe that if Kenny wasn't in this season at all and we meet Jane. She would have got along after what has happened. Lets think this in the real world terms as well. Kenny was a threat to the group. You would send him of or kill him if these things were happening.
Finally I said it before and will say it again. Kill Kenny so that TELLTALES CAN FOCUS ON OTHER FREAKING CHARACTERS.
I've always wondered this. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU ACCIDENTALLY KILL A BABY?!? If he froze then she could of at least brought the body, but when she didn't bring him at all it seems like she "accidentally" threw him to a crowd of walkers to get away safely. And the whole "I didn't mean for it to go this far." bullshit. How fucking far did she think it was going to go? She pulled out her knife at first, and at any point she could of stopped and said "Kenny I J.K. bro, BB in dat car over dere." Kenny:"O Sheit u got meh Jane."
Fuck Jane.
Good lord you guys are writing freaking essays.
I don't think I have enough popcorn for this.
Jane always did have a "sharp" personality.
We hate you Jane!
Well Fuck you!
I don't hate Jane but letting Kenny kill her was the right thing to do. They were clearly in a fight to the death and at least it was clear to me that Jane instigated the whole thing.
Her plan was to provoke Kenny to violence and kill him so she could have Clem to her self. It was entrapment. She knew what she was making it look like and her weak defense of "it was an accident" was ridiculous. How do you accidentally kill a baby...if the baby was dead and she wasn't it is pretty obvious what happened and leaving the baby alone in a car crying with walkers around in order to provoke someone in to a murderous rage to try to prove a point....well Jane didn't have to die, she got herself killed.
Killing Kenny is murder and betrayal unless you fell for her accident excuse even though she tipped you off she was setting Kenny up.
Kenny wasn't that bad or out of control. Sure he had some rage but he clearly had the best method of dealing with Arvo. Dude could not be trusted rightly or wrongly he was with a group you just had a shootout with and you killed all his friends. It is just like the deal with Randle on the TV show.....they could either kill him or ditch him but they can't keep him as part of the group. He was a prisoner you were forcing to lead you to supplies. He is just buying time till he can escape, whether there was actually supplies was 50-50...he could have been playing his only card hoping to be freed or he could have just been stalling to escape. The realities of how things turned out don't matter to the in the moment decisions....you don't make choices based on hindsight (at least on your first play through).
Going North was correct....cold protects from walkers.
Kenny is just a bit emotional but the dude has been through a ton and he keeps going and does what he thinks is right and has the best interests of his closest allies and the group in mind. Kenny can be an ass and a bit petty if you hate him but that is just the design of the game.
From a moral standpoint choosing Jane is wrong unless she tricked you. You know Kenny would never abandon a friend and Jane had already proven she would.
Jane was just super upset that Kenny didn't take her to bed the way Luke did. Kenny tried to let her down gently but said he didn't want to get infected by many of the std's she was sure to be carrying.
Fuck Arvo.
Wait, wrong thread...
Because of threads like this I would rather have the S1 ending. One standard ending and everybody just fucking dead.
Her sister wasn't suicidal over Jane pushing her hard, she was suicidal because of the world so Jane pushed her hard to keep moving. Also yes, abandoning Sarah and tricking Kenny was bs, but we've had enough threads on this and it's ruining the forums. She has good qualities too but of course they get left out of threads like this. Why do we need hate threads?
Better than people saying people who got the Jane finale got the wrong or lesser ending. I hate those. Telltale give us what we ask for and all people do is hate the fact that people got different versions. It really is stupid
You don´t like the same thing I do?????
starts WW3
Because fuck Jane, that's why. >:D
Can't believe this thread isn't closed...
Why close a thread that is 100% right?
I propose the OP become a copy pasta... It sounds as stupid as one.