The complications of clementine... (S2 and beyond)
Long read ahead, but stick with it if it interests yee....
ok then... im of the belief that S2 was not even in the same ball park as S1 in terms of story and emersion and while I can sit here for hours detailing everything I believe caused this to be im going to concentrate on the largest overriding factor to the issues with S2 as I see them and where the walking dead series is going...
The main reason I believe S2 was not as good as S1 is Clementine being cast as the protagonist......... I know not a popular choice but hear me out first, this is not due to the fact I don't like clem or her character, far from it....
in S1 we have lee as protag protecting clem, it worked well.... very well... no other game has pulled this off to anywhere near TWD S1 levels, it was a masterpiece, trivial things became heart pumping edge of ya chair stuff because we had this little girl to protect, and protect we did!, we had huge feeling to anyone that attempted to wrong her in any way, parent like feelings to her in regards to what she saw and experienced, seemingly simple decisions like "do we take clem to Crawford" ended up being mind bender decisions in the games story...
In S2 however we get clem as the protag and although it was ballsy of TT I think it was a series to soon and here's why....
Clem after the time skip from S1 > S2 was to young, the size of the time skip was perfect but just not for a clem protagonist, now ive had this discussion with a few people and their argument is
"Clem has been through lots, she's an experienced survivor and has proved her self"......
well I totally agree, she has... clem Is one tough cookie, BUT ... and this is the vital part, that's all character side, TT have given us that, have created this character that we all love so much, but that doesn't change the impact that casting clem as protagonist has on the game and most importantly the STORY!, of which lets face it is 90% of the walking dead's attraction....
First.. casting clem as protag changes the dynamics of the story massively, in S1 our goal was to protect clementine, where ever the the story took the group was immaterial TBH, Kenny and lee could have said "lets find a way to get to spain" the emotional attachment would have been the same, no matter who left and joined the group we always had that attachment to clem throughout the series, we always had it on the back of our heads that we must protect clem, that was the magic of S1, we played lee but it was clem we were their for, Kenny goes of the rails? we are thinking how is this going to effect clem.... stuck in a meat locker? how is this going to effect clem?... it was the same dynamics through S1 and boy oh boy did it work..
Now by casting clem as protag your inadvertently protecting yourself, just like 99999.999 other games out there and with TWD being what it is we have no fear of this until the final episode, we know clem isn't going to get written out of the story 20 mins into ep 1 or any other episode for that matter bar the very end of ep5, so before we even start we have lost a huge emotional attachment with the STORY!... this doesn't mean I don't care about clem, but playing her you loose that protection element and for a story driven game especially TWD that's fatal.....
What reason have we got to bash buttons like a wild animal with our heart's in our mouths if there is nothing to protect and subconsciously we know that clem aint getting rubbed out.... we are basically watching a film play out and hitting buttons when they pop up on the screen... the very trap that all other games before have fell into and failed, and the reason S1 of TWD was sooo special....
Now we move onto the single biggest reason why clem should not have been cast for S2 protag, and that's age......
a lot of people on here think that because what clem has been through makes all this null and void, well that's just not true, yes we know clem is badass beyond reason but that doesn't change shes still a little girl and the issues really start rearing their heads when it comes to the most important part of TWD and that's story and emersion into that story....
at the start of S2 when we are alone in the words fighting to survive its all good, its just us/clem and we know clem is badass and survive we she will because our good friend lee taught well (amen) but the issues start when ever we add other character's into the mix, nick/pete and luke find us, luke cradles us in his arms and carries clem, this little girl they have found, and the little story plays out with the dog bite and shed.... all good... but once we get shall we say accepted into the cabin crew it all goes messy.....
we go from the little girl that we are into this Robocop like character and its this new dynamic that completely alters the direction of the story and everything in the middle, this is where the construction of the story line gets messed with to much and inadvertently destroys the emersion factor required for a game such as TWD...
We (me and you) are playing this game and therefore its vital that we are right at the center of the action and story, this means that if the group is going to storm a building of bandits we need to be up there in the thick of it and this is where protag clem falls down.... hard...
While clem is awesome and we know she can be very capable its not realistic to put a young girl in the situations she was put in this season..
now for the examples coming up we need to ask ourselves a couple of questions for each of the examples...
- would you ask an 11 year old girl to do this?
- would clem have ended up doing this had lee or another adult been the protagonist?
Example 1..
scouting the bridge before the crossing with the binoculars: 1: NO 2: NO... the only reason we got asked to do that is because we are the player and it just happens that our character is a little girl...had we been playing an adult... no problem...
Example 2..
Clem being picked out of a group of adults and adult males no less to take point on the bridge assault? 1: NO 2: NO again the ONLY REASON an 11 yr old went across that bridge like that was it just so happens she was the character the player (me and you) are playing.. no other reason...
example 3..
On getting to the other side Alvin asks/instructs a young girl to search an unknown building for food for his hungry wife and then sits on his phat ass while the rest of the adults don't even realize what clem is doing as they talk about shit.. again .. 1: NO 2: NO
now I could go on and on here but you get the idea, we haven't mentioned the wind turbine, an whole episode in carvers camp where clem is the only person in the group to do ANYTHING bar a few moments of Kenny.. it was ALL clem... ALL an 11 yr old girl, just because she is the protagonist..
the breaking down of the deck in EP4... again just because we are playing her is she forced into these situations which I don't care what you have been through an 11 year old would never be expected to do, especially a little girl you have only known for a matter of days, if you was in this situation in reality and you find a young girl and asked her to do just one of the above, everyone in your group would be beating you with rocks... you don't ask that of a kid.. again would lee put clem in those situations above? NO! and he knows what she's made of so if anyone should he should, but it wouldn't happen, never mind with a bunch of people who we only just met...
As soon as one of these strange situations raises its ugly head it does something horrible... it makes us thing for a split second and question the situation, and this COMPLETLY destroys emersion.. we may as well have had a alien spaceship land in front of us and matt damon walk out, its that destructive to the whole emersion, so when we go into the building to check for food for Alvin our heads are not fully connected to the games story, because our head notices that this aint quite right.. and in a game like this, that's a disaster....
This coupled with the lack of character development of the rest of the characters, the lack of fear and the need to protect something left S2 feeling dead, we had the novelty of playing our beloved clem but was put on an express train of a story that didn't really go anywhere, but like I said in S1 the end game was less of a factor because we were VERY STRONGLY emotionally attached to clem with a insatiable desire to protect her, this wasn't so for S2, we were left with Kenny/luke/sarah to fill that void, Kenny being the strongest pull (due to YOUR relationship with him NOT clems in S1) if you were lucky enough to like him, if not its down to luke and sarah, where neither did we have that "need to protect vibe off and they were rarely in danger enough to spawn such feelings as strong as we had in S1...
But do we need this feeling of a need to protect? well as its a story driven game and given the game mechanic (prompted button bashing) the answer is YES... besides the age issues ive put forward here if clem was to be the protagonist and we are forced to loose the protective feeling over clem, then the rest of or atleast a number of the characters better be well presented and fleshed out and this just wasn't the case this season, we were just put on a express train and hurled forward into this forced story and expected to care.. the emersion levels were right down this season and it showed, the dynamics of the story were shot due to us playing an 11 yr old and being the one everyone turns to, would you tell an 11 year old under ANY circumstances to got to someone who is falling through broken ice? it wouldn't even enter your head....
BUT that's S2 over... and we have a new thing to protect, little AJ... once AJ was on the scene the game changed a lot, we had a reason again, but I still worry for clem and the future... and here's why....
while im fully against clem as S2 protagonist im all for her being the protagonist in S3.... she will be older.. at an age where she would be doing things like the above so that will no longer be an issue, as I said at the start I don't have issues with clem as the protagonist I just feel it was to soon for her age wise, but S3 that will change.... but I foresee bigger issues...
TWD as a franchise.... our beloved clem is becoming quite the character and very powerfull in TWD series... BUT can she get too powerfull?
if clem gets another season at protagonist her character will start to become bigger and stronger than the WD franchise and then its more "clementine" than TWD, If this happens TWD series is totally dependant on clems voice actor Melissa Hutchison, and limits what can be done long term with the series, and I personly think if clem gets another season as protagonist it will pretty much seal the deal, meaning if TT don't want to commit to this S3 will HAVE to have another protagonist.... interesting heh?
Comments
I want Clem as the S3 protagonist. I´m one of the people who believes this is her story and I´ve actually loved playing as her this season. She´s probably going to age two years next season if they decide on a timeskip and I really want to see how that goes.
Yea, next season she will be older and will work a lot better, she will be in adult realms then not a juvenile like S2 where imo it caused a LOT of story and immersion issues
She´ll be 13, I assume? That´s the oldest they can get her, right? Still, a teenager is probably stronger than a preteen so she can credibly work as a protagonist.
clem just has to be the season 3 protagonist.
her story just is not over yet.
and i really enjoyed playing her, more then any video game character before. especially lee.
i do not know why this character is so popular. the entire time i played him i felt like an utter fool. the immersion was totally ruined by being half the time able to make a reasonable decision and the other half you just get dragged along the story in the most stupid way possible.
not telling clementine about her parents and taking her to the city she believes they still are? just staying forever in the motor inn, after what the madwoman on the video recorder said?
Clem as a protagonist was done PERFECTLY in episode 1 which is the main reason that's still my favorite episode of this Season. Everything started falling apart after that wind turbine.
Yea I guess it is....
Thats still young actually but atleast a little more believable and as you say more credible.
Well...teenager makes a whole lot of difference, so I'm cool with it.
To be perfectly honest I hated the first part of ep1 lol, looking back now it worked the best for the reasons I said in the OP, but i hated it, all i wanted to do was find some people anyone lol, it felt dragged out..
Just I wasnt to know what was to come with character development and the balancing issues that would pop up with a clem protagonist at this age..
But with that hindsight, the first part worked best out all the other episodes due to these issues...... ep5 was decent all things considered, I never expected such a good ending considering the season as a whole and its huge problems..
To be honest one disappointment that I do have is that I really wanted to see moments where Clem acted like a kid. That's one of the reasons why I was really disappointed with the direction Sarah went and how underdeveloped their relationship was. I'm actually sort of glad that we as players don't feel such a need to protect Clementine and instead can help shape her into the person she may become. I don't think a new protagonist would work in the story. Even while playing as Lee it's always been about her story. A totally new non established character who is the new main character would just feel extremely out of place.
People can make mistakes and be likable. Lee could hardly say to the group he wanted to walk out with Clem. No vehicles, they can't split rations and meds. It'd be worse if they'd done that and been captured by bandits
and they can recklessly endanger a child's life and still be haled as the ultimate guardian?
so instead of confronting that smaller risk they wait until the bandits come inevitable to them?
why?
he could have done various things but instead he barely seemed to have considered leaving the inn at the beginning of episode 3.
He saved her and never abandoned her. Ultimate guardian, yes. That wasn't a smaller risk, the bandits owned that area and were known to rape kids. You know Lily wouldn't let them split rations and meds, they were on half apples, cheese and crackers and pieces of beef jerky. Supplies were missing and it was dangerous looking for them. Keep in mind the bandits never breached the Inn till Ben was on watch. It was obviously defensible
Well, I hope they don't make her too old. Her cuteness made me cry at the end of Season 1. It could be interesting too if they continue the story directly after the end of Season 2 depending on whether decision you made. But please, we don't need a second Lara Croft!
Going by the comic timeline, the oldest she can be is 13. I'd prefer if it wasn't a direct timeskip because, although I realise both Kenny and Jane are doomed, I'd rather see an on screen relevant death for them than altered dialogue.
I think Clem will become very tough, but just who she is will still be up to us.
i totally agree with the two main points of age and the protection angle.
i think playing as a child and being asked/put in the situations we were totally broke the immersion/reality of the game, one of the great things about season one was that even Lee as a big tough adult struggled seriously to accomplish what he did in season one, surviving was hard enough let alone protecting clementine, but in season two we are an 11 year old child who is more capable than all the other adults in the game, it's ridiculous.
also the whole protection angle was important for season one because we had to constantly think of the balance between our survival and the protection/guidance of clementine, we had to take risks and make friends to aid in the protection of clementine, whereas in season two we could have just ran away from the group after episode one and it wouldn't have mattered, plus it just made the option of being selfish the better option because the only person we need to care about is ourselves, plus with the added point of less character development from the other people in the group i didn't really care about any of them at all, i really liked kenny (because of season one), so i was attached to him, but everyone else, meh.
Yet another thread by a dude who feels uncomfortable about playing AS a little girl because he thinks they should only be seen as things to protect.
There's a lot of young girls out there. Seeing horrific events from their perspective is way more interesting than yet another Daddy Simulator.
he saved her mainly from dangers he himself created.
and what would she do against it?
my entire point is that there was acute danger after they found the station wagon.
the bandits never breached because they never tried.
one person on watch. and fences you can climb over in seconds. - great deference.
If they attempted to leave with supplies with Lily as she was, Idk. She kind of shot a character over paranoia that they were stealing meds. I like her, but she wasn't mentally stable. The bandits wouldn't have breached if they wanted to really, if they had a decent person watch. Lily knew people were heading to camp before anyone else in the camp knew, before we even saw or heard them, bandits wouldn't have any advantage if the kids were locked in the RV ready to leave with Katjaa or in the Motel, while everyone else manned the defenses or flanked the bandits
But we can play lots of games as big tough adults. I'd prefer more tactical, like Clem needing to sneak, or use traps etc. Kids raised in tough situations are as competent as adults in all but strength, irl, not only in fictions. Many adults have been tempered by a less harsh world, kids have the advantage. We already knew Clem was capable in S1, she proved it lots and was raised by Christa for ages
when was clementine ever tactical or used traps?
and no kids raised in tough situations know how to stay out of trouble, they aren't as capable as adults.
i didn't say i wanted to play a big tough adult (someone like christa or jane would have been fine), i was just making the point that it was really hard for a big tough guy like lee to survive, whereas clementine was way to op for her size and age, also for an adult game it is just better to have an adult protagonist for many many reason (a few already listed) it doesn't matter if there are a lot of adults as protagonists in games, there a just a lot of reason why that is the case, being different from other game does not mean better, it just means different, and in this case that difference was a detriment to the game.
but we didn't see events from a child perspective and we didn't act like a child, clementine was just a 14-15 year old in a childs body, there was nothing that made the game a story about a child except that she technically was a child, other than that we may as well have been an adult, at least that way it would have been more believable.
children need protecting, we build societies in the majority for that reason, so don't go intentionally missing the point of the OP to accuse them of being uncomfortable about playing as a child, when clearly their points were about the story and the motivations presented to the player.
just because you can't see past how much you like the character of clementine to see the game critically, it doesn't mean that playing as clementine wasn't a detriment to the games story and player experience
seeing her sink into madness, is just one more reason to leave.
is she going to shoot everybody?
one person no matter how good they are at something make inevitable mistakes. have you ever kept watch for hours? the walls are just as much cover for enemies as defense. (if not more) come from behind the building, where you found the meds walk behind the walls and and you can pretty much enter everywhere. (or you just go right through that hole next to the meds) add to that the element of surprise and the fact that the bandits outnumber the group and they are doomed.
WOW!!!!
I couldn't have written that better myself stalking head.... bravo!, thats exactly the point of the post...
Top reply..
I didn't say that was how S2 is, just that's how I think playing as Clem should be. I like that she can handle walkers on occasion but imo she should be more flight based than an adult character, and use her mind more than her body to get things. They only really need to tone Clem down in S3, kids can do some of the things she does, but I'd like to play as Christa too
Idk, we left Motor Inn before we knew. They'd keep watch in shifts, I'm pretty sure a military mind like Lily can outwit druggie bandits with defenses, they're so stupid they shoot each other in petty arguments. I'm not saying they should've stayed in the Motor Inn, only that Lee couldn't just run out and it was defensible for at least a bit
oh i get what you mean now, and i actually think if the game was all about how different you would have to act as a child compared to an adult it would have been much better, but they just took the "clementine is all grown up" approach and she was just an OP child.
Although thestalkinghead has said all that can be said to your idiotic post ill say this..
Im 32, im a little past the stage of getting all wet in the pants over playing younger than me and opposite sex characters, im not 5....
I made it pretty clear in the OP I love clem just as much as the next WD fan and WHAT THE ISSUES WERE..
thats just a ignorant post
Part of the problem for me was Clem didn't feel like a little girl for most of season two. Almost no one treats her like one and after Luke insisted she go with him to check the bridge I just started doing every dumb thing imaginable because I knew Clem was invulnerable. Other than the first half of the first episode and the action scenes requiring some extra leg work it didn't really feel like the perspective of someone younger and more vulnerable. A lot of her actions and dialogue end up painting her more as just a small adult. With the way S2 Clem was handled, I'd probably felt the same way if I was playing as Omid most of the time.
And while I didn't want a repeat of the parental angle from S1, making Clem the player character still seems like a terrible idea from a story perspective to me. Ignoring the difficulties of making that work, a lot of which weren't handled well in Season 2, I think controlling Clementine undercuts her relationship with Lee. In season one, you're not just protecting her, you're also trying to guide and raise her, especially after Chuck talks you into teaching her to take care of herself. And, for me at least, I was constantly wondering if I'm teaching her the right things and how my influence was going to affect her as a person.
But by being able to control her in the season 2 it really kind of kills any sense of involvement or responsibility in Clem’s life or character as you can do whatever you want with her now. She can be as ruthless or selfless as possible and when you couple this with the poor characterization of the new cast and how rare S2 Clementine actually seems to act like a little girl and she comes off as just another video game protagonist most of the time. With people talking more about how "badass" and "awesome" she is then her as a character with layers and depth. Her relationship with Lee has no real meaning other than occasionally parroting things he said and if she swears more often.
I think the S2 writers only made Clem the player character because of her established popularity, then later tried to figure out how to make it work into a story instead of crafting a good story centered around Clem in some way. Then when they couldn't make that work just cashed in on nostalgia from the first season to carry the second one by constantly shoving Clem into the action and not only bringing back Kenny but moving him effectively to the center stage for a lot of season two. They probably would have brought Carley back if they hadn't made it so clear how very very dead she was in 400 Days (or S1E1 if you didn't save her).
For me, it would have been a lot more effective to play as someone else who is simply a member of the same group Clementine was in. No longer in a parental role, but just as another survivor, watching this little girl whose been forced to grow up by the reality of the world she’s in try to cope with the same horrors that scar adults for the rest of their lives. And on meta level seeing how your actions as Lee affected her going forward as she grows as a person.
Instead of seeing her growth, season two just jumps 16 months ahead to (flimsily) justify her in a role that normally would be for an adult. Now she can be the kind of person who insists on watching someone get their head bashed in with a crowbar for no reason other than wanting to see it, which seems completely at odds at season with S1 Clem. And I might be willing to accept the fact she’s changed if not for the massive time skip that ignores what should have been a major part of her life and development as a person.
Playing as someone who who gets treated differently because their younger, whose size denies them a base level of strength, who would been seen as easy prey by such a vicious world could have been very enthralling. But that’s not what we got in almost all of Season 2. We got a lot of the staples of zombie-story tropes and retreading of things popular from the last season while playing a character who was thematically, psychologically, and even practically ill-suited to the role she was put in.
And even that could have been done better with what was already available in the story. Sarah was an excellent contrast to S2 Clementine. A sheltered teenager who acts child-like juxtaposed with a younger girl forced out of childhood by circumstances is a unique story aspect to work with and one that could serve as a natural continuation of Clem’s character. Sarah’s naivety could be a reminder of what Clementine has lost, who she could have been, and what that means to her. Their conversations could be framed in natural ways that could subtly discuss idealism vs. cynicism, surviving vs. living, and different aspects of morality.
Hell, just giving the two of them a little more “kid stuff” to do would have been nice, remind us Clem is only eleven, and could have added some levity to space out the darker aspects so they don’t feel so overwhelming. But in the end all we got out of Sarah was not one, but two different kinds of abrupt and horrible deaths which are almost immediately forgotten, all because apparently the writers didn’t like her.
I want Clem for season 3 as the protagonist because I really enjoy her story and playing as her. And it's true that it's very different from our role to protect her in season 1 but for me, I still felt like it was my role to protect her with the choices I made for her.
I think our role in season 2 is more important for Clem than the one we had in season 1 because this time around we get to directly shape her personality, we raise her to become the person we want her to be in this world so it's a bigger responsability than in season 1.
You hit the nail on the head with Clementine's role in Season 2. I hope that Season 3 improves on a few issues you listed out, that is if Telltale plans to have her as a playable character again.
Where is clem tactical? Or use traps? I dont understand where some of these posts are coming from, I really don't.
How in the world would kids have the advantage?, if this was the case we would be seing groups of surviving kids...
The little boy in the "family" @ the end of ep5 with jane... does he look like your arnie type kill anything type of kid? No hes a kid, just like clem, and this is my point ..... had clem not been protagonist she would have portrayed just like that little boy, not roboclem...
I agree on the sarah issue you raise, it was begging to be told but never was and only served to further distance clem from her age and made things even more strange...
On the protagonist tho I disagree, why would it feel out of place? As soon as we or the protagonist meets clem we would auto go back into protect clem mode, as much as I loved lee he was the easiest character to portray out of the whole of S1, its not hard to make a character that we would expect to be looking after clem, its the easist part, as long as he or she is caring towards clem its pretty much job done, ok bit more to it than that but you get what im saying..
Great post...
Agree on all points.. as you say on the other characters, it was hard to care when so little was done in developing the characters, nick got a decent run but then disappeared for nearly an episode and turns up hanging in a fence..
Luke was terrible, considering how the story kept pushing his character on us, that he and clem were best of buddies we knew next to nothing about him, it wasn't untill the fire at the powerstation that I felt anything for luke... I remember all the times that I disagreed with luke and he would give clem those puppy dog eyes and im just thinking "I DONT CARE" it was the same with Rebecca, I just didnt care enough.. tbh carlos I dont miss at all, i never clicked with his character at all! For the same reason..
Sarah is a mystery to me, a lot of people felt for her, I never had anything, I thought she was another character rammed in our face with a sign round her neck saying "feel sorry for her"..
I love kenny I think his character is well presented (mostly from S1 but he had a lot in S2 also) and I just fimd him hilarious, but S2 needed more than kenny, and with TT running away with the idea of turning kenny into a psychopath, I felt like a was baby sitting a group of adults 99% of the time...
Goood post once again
Sorry for only skimming before responding.
I'm "glad" that season 2 wasn't just playing another character trying to protect Clem. That would have felt very rehashed.
Although I understand why some others do not feel this way, I enjoyed season 2 more than season 1. Clem has become one of my favorite videogame protagonists of all time, maybe even my favorite. It was very interesting for me, as a player, trying to play a roll that I am not used to playing and to see things from a child's perspective.
That said, I'm hoping for a time-skip for season 3. I'm hoping that Telltale goes for an angle that focuses on both protecting AJ and trying to deal with his whole "never being a part of civilized society" upbringing.
Personally, I think the problem with the season is that we didn't spend enough time with Clementine and watching her working on her new relationships.
Here "I didn't say that was how S2 is, just that's how I think playing as Clem should be" Also yes, Google it, kids growing up in harsh situations have more of an advantage, because as I said very clearly, adults who grow up before walkers would be more cushy depending on what they've been through in comparison to kids who spend the early, personality and strength shaping part of their life in a harsh world. It's true irl as well, they either come out of it traumatized or have some of the strongest resolve
If it's Clementine my chances of purchasing the game will fall dramatically.
If it´s not Clementine my chances of purchasing the game will be almost null.
I don't think that making Clementine the protagonist is to blame for not having a focal point as in-depth as Lee's relationship with her.
An issue is that season 2 didn't have as many opportunities to connect with the new characters to the same degree. Clementine's dynamic with the cabin group could have been just as hard-hitting in its own right, but there's less time to focus on establishing a connection with people, thus leaving less of an impact (at least for me).
I thought that was the idea in Ep1 ;/ She really needed adults, even though she's the protagonist so the writers wouldn't kill her in Ep1, I was really tense for her because of how alone she was, and how she only killed two walkers all ep and they were big struggles for her, I was glad she was saved by Luke and Pete even though she had protagonist immunity