How can Telltale "make the same mistake again?" Kenny's determinant now, and if we've learned anything about determinant characters, it's that they don't last very long.
How can Telltale "make the same mistake again?" Kenny's determinant now, and if we've learned anything about determinant characters, it's that they don't last very long.
First of all, I know this is all just your opinion here, but I'm going to try and offer some perspective from the other side of the spectrum:
Repeating ground. This season Kenny went through more or less the same stuff all over again. We meet him as a fairly good man with questionable morals who will do what it takes to protect his family, he then does everything he can to save them, he dosnt and they die leading to him becoming aggressive and irrational and then eventually toughens up and saves the day at the end. This is nice and all but its literally the same thing as last season , from a character view doing the same stuff again is just not a good start, Kenny literally ends up in the exact same point as the start of the season, for his character at least this season this may as well not have happened. Rather than just retread old ground why not have him advance as a character and actually go off the deep end fully or have one of the other characters continue instead? Or at least have him learn from season 1. This arguabley happens in some endings but even then it seems bizzare, The writers were hinting at Kenny going to far but they never actually got the courage to have him do it and stuck to another redemption
None of this is necessarily a bad thing. Kenny is who he is, and his fans love him for it. His character themes didn't have to be changed just for the simple purpose of trying to bring something completely new. If anything, the events of season two strengthened my ideas on who Kenny is as a person, even though some of his themes were somewhat similar to what we saw in season one.
Clems relationship with Kenny. I get clem is more of her own character than Lee but it was pretty frustrating how this season she seemed to have this extreme bond with him, we never saw any evidence of clem at all bonding with Kenny, yes something could have occured offscreen but in season 1 they have a brief interaction when they met and after this Kenny simply speaks harshly at her when she asks about duck in ep 3.
We can reasonably assume that they had some level of bonding in the three months (it was three months... right?) or so that they were together before getting separated at the end of Season One. Were they close friends? Maybe not, but there was an existing relationship (he even considered her family in some cases). The fact that Kenny cries after reuniting with Clem in episode two shows that he did care about her. From that point on, the relationship can continue to grow (and it does). Kenny feels closer to her because she is older, and he is proud of her growth. Last season he really wasn't able to get as openly close to her. That was Lee's territory. With Lee being gone, and with Kenny's own biological family being gone, a stronger relationship showing between the two makes sense.
An example showing that Clementine cared about Kenny back in season one is the picture that she drew of him and his family. She holds onto this drawing for years, along with her picture of Lee. Clearly there was some level of emotional attachment there.
The fact Kenny can refuse to help look for clem based on his relationship with Lee suggests that at his core he honestly dosnt really care about her.
Nah, it doesn't really necessarily suggest that at all. I call that Kenny's emotions getting the best of him. He is undeniably a bit too vindictive at times, and I think it got the best of him there (determinant). Regardless, all you have to do in that situation is reason with him, and he then changes his mind. After that, he expresses nothing but interest and desire in rescuing Clementine. (I can bring up evidence if needed... but I'm pretty sure we all know what I'm talking about.)
However in ep 3, 4, 5 they seem extremely close and this seems compltely canon, throughout the whole game Clem can respond to all the other characters in varying ways, for example Luke and Sarah can often be met with haughty responses and in cases like Sarah they often havnt even done anything to offend clem. However with Kenny you have to agree with everything in pretty much all options bar perhaps one which sort of half agrees with someone else, A good example is in ep 4, despite Kenny screaming in her face clem can only stand there and give placid responses. Yes characters in these games do care about others but for such a diverse character to become loved by the protaganist is annoying especially as it reduces choice even more than usual
By this logic, Lee should have had the ability to not care about Clementine back during Season One. Like it or not, the Clem-Kenny relationship was a theme of Season Two.
You can actually act out against Kenny and scold him for a number of different things. For example, you can yell at him for beating Arvo. In this instance he actually agrees with you as the player (Clementine) and admits that he took things too far.
A final note on this overattachment comes in ep 5, in every one of Kenny's endings clem cries (canon) even ones where she simply decides to stay with Kenny. Clem dosnt shed a tear for anyone else over the entire season. Not leaving someone you know> People you know dying
She knew the other characters for what... two weeks tops? Many of them she knew for less than that.
Sarita. Probably the most obvious, she wasnt so much a character but a plot device for Kenny's development. She was almost identical to Kat and died purely to develop Kenny. It happened so fast that she had next to no bind with the main character at all. When she dies the reaction of the fan isnt "Oh no Sarita died how horrible for her" Its "Oh no Sarita died how horrible for Kenny"
I more or less agree, but I don't see why this matters. If Kenny wasn't in season two, and Sarita was only being used in connection to his character, then Sarita wouldn't have even been in season two to begin with. So I'm really not seeing what there is to complain about here..
I disagree that Sarita was identical to Kat... but whatever. That is a different discussion I guess.
The Cabin group. The entire groups possible bond with clem was cut off the moment Kenny appeared, him coming back so early meant that just as they started revealing their personalities Kenny appeared and most players (quite rightly) became disinterested in the cabin group completely as they had a much better alternative to a group of new people. Perhaps more should have been done beforehand as at this poitn the writers clearly expected you to care about them and possibly choose them over Kenny. However it happened to soon.
Nothing was stopping the writers from giving the cabin group members a more prominent or emotional role. Kenny being there doesn't take away those possibilities. They simply chose not to do it. Jane is proof of this.
(Skipping a few of your points about the other characters as its pretty much just a repeat of the same argument)
Writers bias
What does a writer's bias have to do with a character fitting well into a story or not? Seems like a really odd reason for wanting a character to be excluded.
Have to agree about the overshadowing of the other characters. The story feels like it was set up to be about the moral ambiguity of the cabin group, and how Clem's relationship with them would develop, but that loses focus as Kenny's story takes center stage. It wouldn't be as big of an issue if the story could handle multiple character arcs, but plenty were cut short.
I would have liked to see what they were building up to with Carlos as well. Poor guy got pushed off-screen more than anyone.
Kenny is who he is, and his fans love him for it. His character themes didn't have to be changed just for the simple purpose of trying to bring something completely new. If anything, the events of season two strengthened my ideas on who Kenny is as a person, even though some of his themes were somewhat similar to what we saw in season one.
I agree with this, Episode 2 was fine it gave Kenny fans some time with him and was a good bit of fanservice however a good story shouldnt rely on this, a whole season on a character just because hes popular isnt a good way to go about stories, to be honest Kenny started to feel like he had plot armour. I guess we'l just have to disagree on this
By this logic, Lee should have had the ability to not care about Clementine back during Season One. Like it or not, the Clem-Kenny relationship was a theme of Season Two.
I did touch on this but again, Clem was universally popular because there was next to no reason not to like her, she was helpful,cute and offered moral support. She never did anything that the player might completely disagree with, However Kenny is such a much more divisive charcater, I as the player dont want a forced bond with a character that is really easy to like or hate. Also the odd time you can disgree with him is the same as with clem in season 1, that huge bond shoulsdnt be there with such a diverse character, If you like Kenny and agree with him great, but otherwise it just feels forced on the player
Nothing was stopping the writers from giving the cabin group members a more prominent or emotional role. Kenny being there doesn't take away those possibilities. They simply chose not to do it. Jane is proof of this.
Given how people hate Jane you could have fooled me, and regardless it was more the fact that just as the cabin group were starting to bond, Kenny appeared and the rest of the episode became dedicated to him. I did say this was more of the time he was brought back rather than being brought back alltogether, And while I know many people on here bonded with them most lets players and comments dont really seem to care about any of them. If they'd held off with Kenny for a little while it may have worked better
First of all, I know this is all just your opinion here, but I'm going to try and offer some perspective from the other side of the spectrum… more:
Repeating ground. This season Kenny went through more or less the same stuff all over again. We meet him as a fairly good man with questionable morals who will do what it takes to protect his family, he then does everything he can to save them, he dosnt and they die leading to him becoming aggressive and irrational and then eventually toughens up and saves the day at the end. This is nice and all but its literally the same thing as last season , from a character view doing the same stuff again is just not a good start, Kenny literally ends up in the exact same point as the start of the season, for his character at least this season this may as well not have happened. Rather than just retread old ground why not have him advance as a character and actually go off the deep end fully or have one of th… [view original content]
Yes exactly however its more the fact Kenny got this much development again last season, and again fanservice would be fine over 1 or 2 episodes but here it was too much
Good points, and yeah, Kenny's return is one of the major flaws with this entire season, it's not really the fact that he returns that annoy… mores me, it's the fact that Telltale themselves think Kenny is this almighty character that deserves far more development than any other characters, half the time it feels like it's Kenny's story and not Clem's, which is the biggest issue I have with the Kenny endings. Kenny's return definitely had potential, but Telltale don't do anything interesting with him other than to just foreshadow that Kenny is possibly losing it( which, come to think of it, is the same kind of arc where everyone was worried about Lily going crazy in season 1). Kenny is nothing more than walking fan service, and even though I liked those moments where he and Clem interacted, I still don't understand this relationship, there was absolutely no foreshadowing in the first season that Clem and Kenny were going to be best pals in the fut… [view original content]
90 minute episodes and a team of shitty writers is the problem, not Kenny.
I cant remember any episode being 90 minutes for me... even in harms was took me a good hour 45 cause I didnt rush around or anything
I really like this thread. You just speak out a great part of what's in my mind but can't be expressed myself.
Actually I don't hate it when they bring Kenny back. I even think that's great. At that time, in my mind, Kenny went through a lot in S1 and also learnt a lot. At first he just cared about his own family and was only loyal to those who agreed with everything he said. Don't mean to be harsh, but that's really selfish. But after he lost his family, he started to think it another way, especially after he was scolded by Ben. He made the "speech" in the attic where the suicidal couple and then nearly died for another one, which even can be the one he hated so much.
But when he comes back, it just turns out that he actually learnt little from what happened in S1.
Again the anger issue. Again the "siding with whom" problem. Again losing someone he cares. Again having to focus on the "boat" (this time is a baby) to keep moving on. Again never try to put himself in others' shoes.
TTG, please... At least make him grow up a little if we didn't drop Ben.
And as for the Cabin group, I feel really, really, really sorry for them. E1 is a good start. We get their main personalities very soon. E2 feels a little weird with they suddenly taking Clem as an old familiar reliable group member, but at least they haven't go OOC, and we see another side of Rebecca & Carlos, and more stories about Nick & Luke. It's also good to see Walter & Matthew getting developed with only a few lines. From E3 the story starts to focus on Kenny, and the Cabin Group just starts to die, die, and go to die. I feel that Carlos' death is just used to have Sarah die. And what the meaning of Sarah's death? Oh yeah we get Sister Jane developed, along with her suddenly can't stop tallking about her sister. (The story of Jamie seems to be forced to get in the whole story line. But I won't talk about it now. It's another topic.) And Nick, Jesus I'm so sorry for him and uncle Pete. Rebecca becomes a mother. Congratulations! And now she can die. Just leave the baby for Uncle Kenny! Luke's & Alvin's death may be the only one which doesn't suck. But about Luke, I also feel strange. TTG can use ONE line to show us that he keeps his friends in mind, then why don't have him do more in E4 than "Fuck, fuck, fuck!" and then go fuck with Jane? And why he suddenly becomes so friendly towards Kenny besides the campfire? Only to show that center could hold with him alive?
About Mike and Bonnie, I totally agree with you. Bonnie may be stupid, but I don't think she's stupid &asshole enough to take away all the supply. She can be stupid but she's not bad. She blames Clem for Luke's death, but don't forget that even Clem can blame Jane for failing to save Sarah under the deck (not to mention what Kenny does in E4). People just go angry & stupid when they lose people, it doesn't mean they're bad. And she blames her so hard for Walter's death. She's so determined when she decides to betray the Howie Community. It's not easy for her, because we can see how she's eager for a safe, peaceful life like that. She does sacrifice her own safety to help the group. And Mike, he gets sympathy for Arvo, which DOES mean that he's a kindhearted guy. Whatever you may say about Arvo, Mike is just feeling sympathic for a poor kid who just lost his sister. And he leaves a little girl & a new born baby to starve to death for saving another kid? Something must be wrong with his IQ, or with the writing!
As for the Kenny & Clem relationship, it's not so forced for me. I make a list of Clem & Kenny connection in S1 (can't find the thread though). They really don't care so much for each other as in S2. At that time Clem cared about Kenny just as much as she cared about group member. And Kenny cared mostly about his own family & finding a boat... But in S2, it's still possible for the relationship to build so fast.
At first Kenny tries to rebuild his "family" so hard that he sees Clem as his family. I think it's after he scolds Clem for Sarita's death and then apologizes for it that he starts to take Clem as Clem, not as "someone he wants to use to rebuild a family". But whatever, it's reasonable for him to care about her. Clem may not like him at first, but after what he does for her in E3 she starts to at least be thankful to him. Clem is easy to be grateful to others. She is also easy to forgive others. Lee can be very bad to her (I do that in my asshole Lee playthrough: scold her, don't feed her, let she see a lot of bad things, etc.) but she still remember him as her best friend. She doesn't want people die, even the St. Johns, even Larry, who nearly killed Lee. So it's okay for her to forgive Kenny's being an asshole in S1 and just remember how he sacrifices himself in S2E3. However, it's also better to get a "not forgive Kenny" option, as she can say that Arvo deserves to get beaten.
PS. Clem cries for Omid... Poor Omid... In S1 Lee becomes jealous of him, for Clem never stops him swearing... Christa also says Clem always agrees with him... But he's just killed and hardly gets mentioned then.
Edit: It makes me not able to stop laughing to see Kennyfan's regarding him as a Saint. Kenny is not a bad guy, but he's never a Saint.
Edit 2: Kenny tried to use Clem to rebuild a family, but Clem is the very one who breaks Kenny's dream of "rebuilding a family like the one he had in S1". So ironic.
"His reactions are much harsher and he's more distrusting towards strangers."
Actually according to the way he ends up in S1, especially with Ben not being dropped, I think he should develop another way. At least he should learn to put himself in other's shoes.
I don't have time to read a large post so I'm just going to adress your ending points:
* Has the same role as in season 1
* His charac… moreter dosnt develop to anything this season, he literally starts and finishes at the same point
* He overshadows everyone else
* Clem has a forced bond with him
* His endings are over the top and not fitting of the world
* The writers were pretty biased towards him
.
.
.
* Yes he does.
* I would say Kenny develops more than in season 1. His reactions are much harsher and he's more distrusting towards strangers.
* I don't think he overshadowed everyone, but arguably most.
* Yes she did.
* I completely disagree. What fits the world is not your say, it's the writers. Finding Wellignton and Kenny giving himself up to get the kids in are perfectly in line with former themes in the walking dead.
* The writers were pretty biased towards everyone. Kenny is opposed more than other characters and more wrong than them too.
Ive always thought that Kenny shouldn't have come back for many of the reasons you stated. Imagine what a different game it would have been, and how different our relationships with the other characters would have been. I dont know if I would have gotten the things I wanted out of the season, Christa back for example, but I know I didnt this season.
Yeah Clem probably cried for Omid, but again this was still clem when she was 9, not two years later and again it didnt actually show her crying onscreen. The point is shes still upset due to death not to just leaving/staying with someone.
I really like this thread. You just speak out a great part of what's in my mind but can't be expressed myself.
Actually I don't hate it w… morehen they bring Kenny back. I even think that's great. At that time, in my mind, Kenny went through a lot in S1 and also learnt a lot. At first he just cared about his own family and was only loyal to those who agreed with everything he said. Don't mean to be harsh, but that's really selfish. But after he lost his family, he started to think it another way, especially after he was scolded by Ben. He made the "speech" in the attic where the suicidal couple and then nearly died for another one, which even can be the one he hated so much.
But when he comes back, it just turns out that he actually learnt little from what happened in S1.
Again the anger issue. Again the "siding with whom" problem. Again losing someone he cares. Again having to focus on the "boat" (this time is a baby) to keep moving on. A… [view original content]
Not probably. In that restroom she did cry for him. TTG just doesn't bother itself to put the milk-like tears on her cheeks. I understand your point... I just feel a little bad that people forget details about Omid... I like that guy.
Yeah Clem probably cried for Omid, but again this was still clem when she was 9, not two years later and again it didnt actually show her crying onscreen. The point is shes still upset due to death not to just leaving/staying with someone.
Yeah Clem probably cried for Omid, but again this was still clem when she was 9, not two years later and again it didnt actually show her crying onscreen. The point is shes still upset due to death not to just leaving/staying with someone.
Yeah shes sniffling but she does that with others in the season in all Kenny endings its full blown tears
Jane was good for me, apart from after clem gets shot she starts riling up Kenny and that dosnt seem in character for a cautious person like her. And again the baby hiding thing seemed a bit extreme but who knows. I liked her character in a sense of how a loner would really be in that world, cold,cruel and blunt with a reason behind it. She was a vast improvement on the cartoonish Molly from the first season
Also clem reminds her of her sister and the bond she formed with her made sense (though again clems engagement in this was varied on the player) however why she suddenly had feelings for Luke after some quick sex I dont get, she was more upset than Clementine about his death
You're saying Clementine had to have someone she knew from before? Why? I thought it was supposed to be Clem adjusting to her circumstances and meeting new people. I would rather Omid and Christa stayed if that was the case.
And..... Kenny is a MAJOR character. He appeared in all episodes of Season 1 besides Lee and Clem.
At least Clem has someone in her group… more she remembers from season 1.
Wanna know why he got brought back?
Because of what happened to Omid and Christa.
I feel christa and omid wernt meant to come back either however many people cant seem to take a character leaving screen alive, there has to be a body. Also again they had to do that timeskip which seems still a bit pointless, clem would have been simaler without the miss of all that development
Ive always thought that Kenny shouldn't have come back for many of the reasons you stated. Imagine what a different game it would have been,… more and how different our relationships with the other characters would have been. I dont know if I would have gotten the things I wanted out of the season, Christa back for example, but I know I didnt this season.
I agree with this, Episode 2 was fine it gave Kenny fans some time with him and was a good bit of fanservice however a good story shouldnt rely on this, a whole season on a character just because hes popular isnt a good way to go about stories, to be honest Kenny started to feel like he had plot armour. I guess we'l just have to disagree on this
It doesn't necessarily have to be viewed as fan service though. It doesn't have to rely on how he was viewed in season one. Telltale simply kept to his script, and that's fine. He was already a dynamic character. Changing a character just for the sake of doing it isn't always a good thing, and it definitely isn't necessary.
to be honest Kenny started to feel like he had plot armour.
As a Kenny fan, I was going through each episode practically praying that he wasn't going to die. I definitely didn't feel like he had plot armor. Going into episode 5 I pretty much felt like he was going to die for sure.
I did touch on this but again, Clem was universally popular because there was next to no reason not to like her, she was helpful,cute and offered moral support. She never did anything that the player might completely disagree with, However Kenny is such a much more divisive charcater, I as the player dont want a forced bond with a character that is really easy to like or hate. Also the odd time you can disgree with him is the same as with clem in season 1, that huge bond shoulsdnt be there with such a diverse character, If you like Kenny and agree with him great, but otherwise it just feels forced on the player
But again, just because you as the player didn't have a personal liking of Kenny, that doesn't mean Clementine the character can't have emotional ties to him. Based on the knowledge that we have about her feelings towards him and his family in season one, we know that she had a level of emotional attachment. In season two, of course those things are going to come into play in regards to how they react to one another. That being said, you can start to act indifferent towards his ideas, or you can openly disagree with him. You are never forced to be in agreement with him. I'm honestly not sure why you think otherwise. More times than not there is an option to offer disagreement. I can list some examples if you want me to, but I'm assuming you know what they are considering you probably went that route yourself.
Given how people hate Jane you could have fooled me, and regardless it was more the fact that just as the cabin group were starting to bond, Kenny appeared and the rest of the episode became dedicated to him. I did say this was more of the time he was brought back rather than being brought back alltogether, And while I know many people on here bonded with them most lets players and comments dont really seem to care about any of them. If they'd held off with Kenny for a little while it may have worked better
There are a lot of people that really like Jane as well. Regardless, the point I was making is that there were other main/important/in depth characters in the story even with Kenny around. Jane is proof that the writers could have gone further in depth with a few more members of the cabin group if they really wanted to. Having Kenny in the story didn't prevent that from happening.
I don't really understand how you can pin your theory all one character. Why do Jane, Bonnie, and Mike get free passes? Maybe Telltale should have stuck with the cabin group members a little longer instead of introducing three new characters and killing off several members of the cabin group. (I'm not saying Telltale actually should have done this... just making a point).
Kenny is who he is, and his fans love him for it. His character themes didn't have to be changed just for the simple purpose of trying to br… moreing something completely new. If anything, the events of season two strengthened my ideas on who Kenny is as a person, even though some of his themes were somewhat similar to what we saw in season one.
I agree with this, Episode 2 was fine it gave Kenny fans some time with him and was a good bit of fanservice however a good story shouldnt rely on this, a whole season on a character just because hes popular isnt a good way to go about stories, to be honest Kenny started to feel like he had plot armour. I guess we'l just have to disagree on this
By this logic, Lee should have had the ability to not care about Clementine back during Season One. Like it or not, the Clem-Kenny relationship was a theme of Season Two.
I did touch on this but again, Clem was universally popular because there… [view original content]
Thanks, OP, for summing up everything I feel about Kenny's presence in Season 2.
I honestly feel that the second Season would have felt stronger if the writers didn't have him as a crutch and constant reminder of how cool Season 1 was.
Yeah shes sniffling but she does that with others in the season in all Kenny endings its full blown tears
Jane was good for me, apart fro… morem after clem gets shot she starts riling up Kenny and that dosnt seem in character for a cautious person like her. And again the baby hiding thing seemed a bit extreme but who knows. I liked her character in a sense of how a loner would really be in that world, cold,cruel and blunt with a reason behind it. She was a vast improvement on the cartoonish Molly from the first season
Also clem reminds her of her sister and the bond she formed with her made sense (though again clems engagement in this was varied on the player) however why she suddenly had feelings for Luke after some quick sex I dont get, she was more upset than Clementine about his death
Its not really about liking the character though it s about how well the character was implemented. That said if you like Kenny it probably would have been pretty enjoyable
If it's not writer's bias, then why does Kenny get this sympathetic emotional send off while other characters don't get that kind of thing, mostly Nick and Sarah in this season? Why do other episodes paint other members for being stupid for not following Kenny's rules? Why are his endings more emotional while Jane's endings aren't quite in that spectrum, why does he get so much development, while are others are chopped liver? He's fan service, and I simply can't look past that. The relationship with Lee made sense because Lee looked after her when her parents were nowhere to be found and Lee took it in his heart to look after Clem, and please don't resort o the three month time skip excuse, it doesn't work and it makes the relationship even more problematic in the fact that it's based on something we never saw(in my opinion). As for Clem's relationship with Kenny, her drawing of him and his family in season 1 was PITY, not emotional attachment, any rational person would feel sorry for Kenny at that point, other than that, there was nothing there for me to buy that these two would have a father daughter relationship, it's simply not developed enough and it just feels forced in alot of ways, it doesn't feel natural at all to me, and it constantly keeps me from liking this relationship.
First of all, I know this is all just your opinion here, but I'm going to try and offer some perspective from the other side of the spectrum… more:
Repeating ground. This season Kenny went through more or less the same stuff all over again. We meet him as a fairly good man with questionable morals who will do what it takes to protect his family, he then does everything he can to save them, he dosnt and they die leading to him becoming aggressive and irrational and then eventually toughens up and saves the day at the end. This is nice and all but its literally the same thing as last season , from a character view doing the same stuff again is just not a good start, Kenny literally ends up in the exact same point as the start of the season, for his character at least this season this may as well not have happened. Rather than just retread old ground why not have him advance as a character and actually go off the deep end fully or have one of th… [view original content]
If it's not writer's bias, then why does Kenny get this sympathetic emotional send off while other characters don't get that kind of thing, mostly Nick and Sarah in this season?
I never said anything about it being writer's bias or not..
I simply said that is poor reasoning for saying a character should not have been involved in the season. It has nothing to do with it really.
Why do other episodes paint other members for being stupid for not following Kenny's rules?
Outside of Kenny sometimes doing that himself, that was never done at all. Heck, Kenny was generally in the minority, and faced more criticism than anyone else really.
why does he get so much development, while are others are chopped liver?
So you're saying that he was further developed in season two then? He wasn't just a rehash of his season one self? Interesting.
Anyway, you're exaggerating. Jane and Luke were both pretty well developed. Even Mike and Bonnie were to an extent. Walt in his very short screen time was well developed.
Do you have any examples to show how Kenny received "so much more" development in comparison to some of the other major characters?
He's fan service, and I simply can't look past that.
I disagree.
The relationship with Lee made sense because Lee looked after her when her parents were nowhere to be found and Lee took it in his heart to look after Clem
And Kenny isn't allowed to do the same why..? Why is he not allowed to take it in turn to watch out for Clem? He considers Clem family.
and please don't resort o the three month time skip excuse, it doesn't work and it makes the relationship even more problematic in the fact that it's based on something we never saw(in my opinion).
I'll use the "excuse", because it is legitimate. We don't know what happened in those three months, so it is reasonable to assume they made some kind of emotional connection given that they do in fact care about one another. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than just magically starting to care about one another out of the blue.
As for Clem's relationship with Kenny, her drawing of him and his family in season 1 was PITY, not emotional attachment
That's just guesswork, and we don't even know when she made the drawing. What about the fact that she keeps the drawing with her for years? If she had disliked Kenny or been indifferent towards him I doubt she would A) Make that drawing in the first place and Keep it with her for as long as she did.
Ultimately this evidence isn't even needed. When Clem met up with Kenny is season one she was clearly very happy to see him. That is all the evidence anyone needs. Telltale clearly showed us that the two cared about one another.
there was nothing there for me to buy that these two would have a father daughter relationship
Who said it had to be a "father-daughter" relationship..? I wouldn't label their relationship like that at all.
If it's not writer's bias, then why does Kenny get this sympathetic emotional send off while other characters don't get that kind of thing, … moremostly Nick and Sarah in this season? Why do other episodes paint other members for being stupid for not following Kenny's rules? Why are his endings more emotional while Jane's endings aren't quite in that spectrum, why does he get so much development, while are others are chopped liver? He's fan service, and I simply can't look past that. The relationship with Lee made sense because Lee looked after her when her parents were nowhere to be found and Lee took it in his heart to look after Clem, and please don't resort o the three month time skip excuse, it doesn't work and it makes the relationship even more problematic in the fact that it's based on something we never saw(in my opinion). As for Clem's relationship with Kenny, her drawing of him and his family in season 1 was PITY, not emotional attachmen… [view original content]
How the hell is Mike developed? You barely get to know him in this season, he's just along for the ride, nothing more, he's there to be the generic nice guy until the contrived scenario where he betrays everyone. Bonnie is all over the place, and I'm not really invested in her character, because like Luke, she's just there to be the nice person, even though I like her, this season just doesn't give me enough time to get invested in her character, Luke has the same problem in that his personal issues feel forced and he's kind of the generic nice guy for the player, even though I though his character could have gone somewhere interesting. Yeah, Telltale showed us that Clem was happy to see Kenny because season 2 is based on this entire idea that Clem and Kenny have been best pals since season 1, which I really fail to see how they have a bond, considering WE NEVER SEE IT after the time skip, NO EVIDENCE OF IT AT ALL. "It makes a hell of alot more sense than just magically starting to care one another out of the blue", < THIS is pretty much what happens in this season for me. Of course, Kenny is allowed, but it needs to make sense and be natural, and there at least needs to be some kind of build up to it. Most of the time Kenny is a rehashing when Nick Breckon isn't writing him, episode 5 at least showed he was sort of going somewhere, but too late, since it's the last episode and Kenny has done nothing interesting for his character in this season so far. I really don't see Kenny's return as anything other than fan service, considering that Telltale don't even bother to give us a proper explanation for his return, "I got lucky" is not going to cut, especially when the episodes are cut short because Telltale are in over their heads.
If it's not writer's bias, then why does Kenny get this sympathetic emotional send off while other characters don't get that kind of thing, … moremostly Nick and Sarah in this season?
I never said anything about it being writer's bias or not..
I simply said that is poor reasoning for saying a character should not have been involved in the season. It has nothing to do with it really.
Why do other episodes paint other members for being stupid for not following Kenny's rules?
Outside of Kenny sometimes doing that himself, that was never done at all. Heck, Kenny was generally in the minority, and faced more criticism than anyone else really.
why does he get so much development, while are others are chopped liver?
So you're saying that he was further developed in season two then? He wasn't just a rehash of his season one self? Interesting.
Anyway, you're exaggerating. Jane and Luke were both pretty well develope… [view original content]
How the hell is Mike developed? You barely get to know him in this season, he's just along for the ride, nothing more, he's there to be the generic nice guy until the contrived scenario where he betrays everyone. Bonnie is all over the place, and I'm not really invested in her character
They are as developed as basically any other secondary characters in the game (season one,-season two). We don't really know much about their past, but whatever.
I'm not sure why you're ignoring the Jane example. Again, Jane is proof that Telltale can make in depth characters/ developed characters with Kenny around.
Luke has the same problem in that his personal issues feel forced and he's kind of the generic nice guy for the player, even though I though his character could have gone somewhere interesting.
This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Kenny though.
What characters in either season have been more developed than Luke? Doug? No. Carley? Not really. Molly? No. Katjaa? No. Duck? No. Lilly? No. Larry? No. Chuck? No. Omid? No. Christa? No. Ben? No.
If you disagree with those, could you explain why?
Telltale showed us that Clem was happy to see Kenny because season 2 is based on this entire idea that Clem and Kenny have been best pals since season 1
Doesn't really matter either way. It proves that they cared about each other.
I really fail to see how they have a bond, considering WE NEVER SEE IT after the time skip, NO EVIDENCE OF IT AT ALL.
We don't have to see them be all buddy-buddy in season one in order for the two to have a canonical connection of some kind.
I mean, Lee is basically the only character in season one who we see openly interact with Clementine. That doesn't mean that no one else cared about her. Its just how the game was set up.
Of course, Kenny is allowed, but it needs to make sense and be natural, and there at least needs to be some kind of build up to it.
It made perfect sense. They clearly had some emotional attachment from season one. Why is that so hard for people to swallow?
I don't know what kind of buildup you're looking for, but the relationship really wasn't that overbearing or anything. For the vast majority of the game, he pretty much just acted like your pal. It really wasn't all that thick with emotion.
I really don't see Kenny's return as anything other than fan service, considering that Telltale don't even bother to give us a proper explanation for his return, "I got lucky" is not going to cut,
A poor explanation doesn't = fan service.
Honestly though, Kenny's explanation was a lot more realistic/natural than him divulging what he did exactly to get out of the situation that he was in at the end of season one. Obviously us as the players want to know more, but it was kind of a tricky subject to address without it sounding really forced.
How the hell is Mike developed? You barely get to know him in this season, he's just along for the ride, nothing more, he's there to be the … moregeneric nice guy until the contrived scenario where he betrays everyone. Bonnie is all over the place, and I'm not really invested in her character, because like Luke, she's just there to be the nice person, even though I like her, this season just doesn't give me enough time to get invested in her character, Luke has the same problem in that his personal issues feel forced and he's kind of the generic nice guy for the player, even though I though his character could have gone somewhere interesting. Yeah, Telltale showed us that Clem was happy to see Kenny because season 2 is based on this entire idea that Clem and Kenny have been best pals since season 1, which I really fail to see how they have a bond, considering WE NEVER SEE IT after the time skip, NO EVIDENCE OF IT AT ALL. "It makes a hell of alot mo… [view original content]
Honestly I don't think the main problem is Kenny's return, rather it is what this return influenced. Had other characters been given time to properly develop, more time was given to bond with characters, and if the game did not seem so rushed, then I don't think anyone would have minded Kenny's return. He would simply be another character in the game among the others.
Kenny died in Season 1.
Originally, Telltale made us believe he was dead, but his real death scene involved him screaming and had a more gruesome death scene. Its unknown why Telltale brought him back to life, but his story on how he survived getting out of Savannah was poorly written because there was no story, he wasn't supposed to survive.
Kenny died in Season 1.
Originally, Telltale made us believe he was dead, but his real death scene involved him screaming and had a more gr… moreuesome death scene. Its unknown why Telltale brought him back to life, but his story on how he survived getting out of Savannah was poorly written because there was no story, he wasn't supposed to survive.
Thank you, Those were other points I was thinking about but wasnt sure how to write them out, The bias can be seen in the fcat every single ending is a peak emotional moment and the aftermath shows clem very upset. Take the Luke death, clem looks sad for a minute and then clem goes its okay to jane in the aftermath comforting her when it should be the other way round really, clem has the most blank emotionless face during that scene as well.
How the hell is Mike developed? You barely get to know him in this season, he's just along for the ride, nothing more, he's there to be the … moregeneric nice guy until the contrived scenario where he betrays everyone. Bonnie is all over the place, and I'm not really invested in her character
They are as developed as basically any other secondary characters in the game (season one,-season two). We don't really know much about their past, but whatever.
I'm not sure why you're ignoring the Jane example. Again, Jane is proof that Telltale can make in depth characters/ developed characters with Kenny around.
Luke has the same problem in that his personal issues feel forced and he's kind of the generic nice guy for the player, even though I though his character could have gone somewhere interesting.
This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Kenny though.
What characters in either season have been more developed than L… [view original content]
Why do other episodes paint other members for being stupid for not following Kenny's rules?
I'm sorry to resort to a tired meme, but...
There was a whole scene in episode 3 where Mike pointed out just how blatantly IDIOTIC Kenny's plan to escape Carver's compound was. You can accuse Kenny of having plot armour if you like, but you can't accuse the writers of treating him with kiddie gloves.
You think it hurts the story bring Kenny back <=> You don't like Kenny
How can they just think that way?
To tell you the truth I have mixed feeling for Kenny. I don't like a tons of things he did. But I find that it's just easier for me to forgive him for doing these shits than to forgive many of the others for doing almost the same. After my 1st playthrough I think of him a lot, and after I get all the endings I have to admit that I feel worse if the one getting killed is him, not Jane. TTG does succeed in having us get a tons of emotion for that guy, by keeping torturing him physically & mentally and having him sacrifice himself for Clem at some key points.
BUT I never think it's a good idea to bring him back like this. It gets feelings from the player for ONE character, but it makes the whole story sucks. It's a little bit like making a Mary Sue. Not exactly the same, but very similiar.
I guess she didn't care about Luke as much as she did Kenny. Oh well. That's the story. Its not bad just because you wish it was different.
Seriously, I really think people only dislike Kenny's presence because they are sick of him/ don't like him. There really aren't any other legitimate reasons.
J-Master
Thank you, Those were other points I was thinking about but wasnt sure how to write them out, The bias can be seen in the fcat e… morevery single ending is a peak emotional moment and the aftermath shows clem very upset. Take the Luke death, clem looks sad for a minute and then clem goes its okay to jane in the aftermath comforting her when it should be the other way round really, clem has the most blank emotionless face during that scene as well.
BUT I never think it's a good idea to bring him back like this. It gets feelings from the player for ONE character, but it makes the whole story sucks. It's a little bit like making a Mary Sue. Not exactly the same, but very similiar.
I view the replies and find a funny idea.
You think it hurts the story bring Kenny back <=> You don't like Kenny
How can they ju… morest think that way?
To tell you the truth I have mixed feeling for Kenny. I don't like a tons of things he did. But I find that it's just easier for me to forgive him for doing these shits than to forgive many of the others for doing almost the same. After my 1st playthrough I think of him a lot, and after I get all the endings I have to admit that I feel worse if the one getting killed is him, not Jane. TTG does succeed in having us get a tons of emotion for that guy, by keeping torturing him physically & mentally and having him sacrifice himself for Clem at some key points.
BUT I never think it's a good idea to bring him back like this. It gets feelings from the player for ONE character, but it makes the whole story sucks. It's a little bit like making a Mary Sue. Not exactly the same, but very similiar.
Yes! This! Mike and Rebecca point out how stupid, unpredictable and dangerous Kenny's plan is. That's why the whole group huddles together, bounces some other ideas around to find a better plan... Oh wait. No. That didn't happen. Kenny puts forth a plan, and bitches at anyone who doesn't agree with him until they accept his idea.
Not exactly kiddie gloves, but Kenny was definitely vindicated at pretty much every opportunity by the writers. It doesn't matter how insane or brutal or unnecessary his plans and actions are. In the end, Kenny is always proven right. Other characters are only right when and if they agree with Kenny. That really irked me while playing this season.
Why do other episodes paint other members for being stupid for not following Kenny's rules?
I'm sorry to resort to a tired meme, but… more...
There was a whole scene in episode 3 where Mike pointed out just how blatantly IDIOTIC Kenny's plan to escape Carver's compound was. You can accuse Kenny of having plot armour if you like, but you can't accuse the writers of treating him with kiddie gloves.
And Kenny "doesn't fit in season two" simply because these certain individuals do not like him.
I dont know how many more points I could have put in the OP to say its not this. I even started with I didnt like him in season 1 but I felt he was a good character, this season not so much due to all the stuff I said.
And Kenny "doesn't fit in season two" simply because these certain individuals do not like him.
I guess I shouldn't generalize like that.. but I really think that is the major factor.
Comments
90 minute episodes and a team of shitty writers is the problem, not Kenny.
And..... Kenny is a MAJOR character. He appeared in all episodes of Season 1 besides Lee and Clem.
At least Clem has someone in her group she remembers from season 1.
Wanna know why he got brought back?
Because of what happened to Omid and Christa.
Okay dude. Why are you here agian? All you ever do is hate on the game
How can Telltale "make the same mistake again?" Kenny's determinant now, and if we've learned anything about determinant characters, it's that they don't last very long.
That is true, but that doesn't keep said character from hogging the spotlight and being nothing but boring fan service.
First of all, I know this is all just your opinion here, but I'm going to try and offer some perspective from the other side of the spectrum:
None of this is necessarily a bad thing. Kenny is who he is, and his fans love him for it. His character themes didn't have to be changed just for the simple purpose of trying to bring something completely new. If anything, the events of season two strengthened my ideas on who Kenny is as a person, even though some of his themes were somewhat similar to what we saw in season one.
We can reasonably assume that they had some level of bonding in the three months (it was three months... right?) or so that they were together before getting separated at the end of Season One. Were they close friends? Maybe not, but there was an existing relationship (he even considered her family in some cases). The fact that Kenny cries after reuniting with Clem in episode two shows that he did care about her. From that point on, the relationship can continue to grow (and it does). Kenny feels closer to her because she is older, and he is proud of her growth. Last season he really wasn't able to get as openly close to her. That was Lee's territory. With Lee being gone, and with Kenny's own biological family being gone, a stronger relationship showing between the two makes sense.
An example showing that Clementine cared about Kenny back in season one is the picture that she drew of him and his family. She holds onto this drawing for years, along with her picture of Lee. Clearly there was some level of emotional attachment there.
Nah, it doesn't really necessarily suggest that at all. I call that Kenny's emotions getting the best of him. He is undeniably a bit too vindictive at times, and I think it got the best of him there (determinant). Regardless, all you have to do in that situation is reason with him, and he then changes his mind. After that, he expresses nothing but interest and desire in rescuing Clementine. (I can bring up evidence if needed... but I'm pretty sure we all know what I'm talking about.)
By this logic, Lee should have had the ability to not care about Clementine back during Season One. Like it or not, the Clem-Kenny relationship was a theme of Season Two.
You can actually act out against Kenny and scold him for a number of different things. For example, you can yell at him for beating Arvo. In this instance he actually agrees with you as the player (Clementine) and admits that he took things too far.
She knew the other characters for what... two weeks tops? Many of them she knew for less than that.
I more or less agree, but I don't see why this matters. If Kenny wasn't in season two, and Sarita was only being used in connection to his character, then Sarita wouldn't have even been in season two to begin with. So I'm really not seeing what there is to complain about here..
I disagree that Sarita was identical to Kat... but whatever. That is a different discussion I guess.
Nothing was stopping the writers from giving the cabin group members a more prominent or emotional role. Kenny being there doesn't take away those possibilities. They simply chose not to do it. Jane is proof of this.
(Skipping a few of your points about the other characters as its pretty much just a repeat of the same argument)
What does a writer's bias have to do with a character fitting well into a story or not? Seems like a really odd reason for wanting a character to be excluded.
Offtopic but since your picture if doug heres a present of igot lucky real lucky doug
Have to agree about the overshadowing of the other characters. The story feels like it was set up to be about the moral ambiguity of the cabin group, and how Clem's relationship with them would develop, but that loses focus as Kenny's story takes center stage. It wouldn't be as big of an issue if the story could handle multiple character arcs, but plenty were cut short.
I would have liked to see what they were building up to with Carlos as well. Poor guy got pushed off-screen more than anyone.
I agree with this, Episode 2 was fine it gave Kenny fans some time with him and was a good bit of fanservice however a good story shouldnt rely on this, a whole season on a character just because hes popular isnt a good way to go about stories, to be honest Kenny started to feel like he had plot armour. I guess we'l just have to disagree on this
I did touch on this but again, Clem was universally popular because there was next to no reason not to like her, she was helpful,cute and offered moral support. She never did anything that the player might completely disagree with, However Kenny is such a much more divisive charcater, I as the player dont want a forced bond with a character that is really easy to like or hate. Also the odd time you can disgree with him is the same as with clem in season 1, that huge bond shoulsdnt be there with such a diverse character, If you like Kenny and agree with him great, but otherwise it just feels forced on the player
Given how people hate Jane you could have fooled me, and regardless it was more the fact that just as the cabin group were starting to bond, Kenny appeared and the rest of the episode became dedicated to him. I did say this was more of the time he was brought back rather than being brought back alltogether, And while I know many people on here bonded with them most lets players and comments dont really seem to care about any of them. If they'd held off with Kenny for a little while it may have worked better
I cant remember any episode being 90 minutes for me... even in harms was took me a good hour 45 cause I didnt rush around or anything
Yes exactly however its more the fact Kenny got this much development again last season, and again fanservice would be fine over 1 or 2 episodes but here it was too much
i can remember every episode being 90 minutes for me and i didn't rush around or anything
I really like this thread. You just speak out a great part of what's in my mind but can't be expressed myself.
Actually I don't hate it when they bring Kenny back. I even think that's great. At that time, in my mind, Kenny went through a lot in S1 and also learnt a lot. At first he just cared about his own family and was only loyal to those who agreed with everything he said. Don't mean to be harsh, but that's really selfish. But after he lost his family, he started to think it another way, especially after he was scolded by Ben. He made the "speech" in the attic where the suicidal couple and then nearly died for another one, which even can be the one he hated so much.
But when he comes back, it just turns out that he actually learnt little from what happened in S1.
Again the anger issue. Again the "siding with whom" problem. Again losing someone he cares. Again having to focus on the "boat" (this time is a baby) to keep moving on. Again never try to put himself in others' shoes.
TTG, please... At least make him grow up a little if we didn't drop Ben.
And as for the Cabin group, I feel really, really, really sorry for them. E1 is a good start. We get their main personalities very soon. E2 feels a little weird with they suddenly taking Clem as an old familiar reliable group member, but at least they haven't go OOC, and we see another side of Rebecca & Carlos, and more stories about Nick & Luke. It's also good to see Walter & Matthew getting developed with only a few lines. From E3 the story starts to focus on Kenny, and the Cabin Group just starts to die, die, and go to die. I feel that Carlos' death is just used to have Sarah die. And what the meaning of Sarah's death? Oh yeah we get Sister Jane developed, along with her suddenly can't stop tallking about her sister. (The story of Jamie seems to be forced to get in the whole story line. But I won't talk about it now. It's another topic.) And Nick, Jesus I'm so sorry for him and uncle Pete. Rebecca becomes a mother. Congratulations! And now she can die. Just leave the baby for Uncle Kenny! Luke's & Alvin's death may be the only one which doesn't suck. But about Luke, I also feel strange. TTG can use ONE line to show us that he keeps his friends in mind, then why don't have him do more in E4 than "Fuck, fuck, fuck!" and then go fuck with Jane? And why he suddenly becomes so friendly towards Kenny besides the campfire? Only to show that center could hold with him alive?
About Mike and Bonnie, I totally agree with you. Bonnie may be stupid, but I don't think she's stupid &asshole enough to take away all the supply. She can be stupid but she's not bad. She blames Clem for Luke's death, but don't forget that even Clem can blame Jane for failing to save Sarah under the deck (not to mention what Kenny does in E4). People just go angry & stupid when they lose people, it doesn't mean they're bad. And she blames her so hard for Walter's death. She's so determined when she decides to betray the Howie Community. It's not easy for her, because we can see how she's eager for a safe, peaceful life like that. She does sacrifice her own safety to help the group. And Mike, he gets sympathy for Arvo, which DOES mean that he's a kindhearted guy. Whatever you may say about Arvo, Mike is just feeling sympathic for a poor kid who just lost his sister. And he leaves a little girl & a new born baby to starve to death for saving another kid? Something must be wrong with his IQ, or with the writing!
As for the Kenny & Clem relationship, it's not so forced for me. I make a list of Clem & Kenny connection in S1 (can't find the thread though). They really don't care so much for each other as in S2. At that time Clem cared about Kenny just as much as she cared about group member. And Kenny cared mostly about his own family & finding a boat... But in S2, it's still possible for the relationship to build so fast.
At first Kenny tries to rebuild his "family" so hard that he sees Clem as his family. I think it's after he scolds Clem for Sarita's death and then apologizes for it that he starts to take Clem as Clem, not as "someone he wants to use to rebuild a family". But whatever, it's reasonable for him to care about her. Clem may not like him at first, but after what he does for her in E3 she starts to at least be thankful to him. Clem is easy to be grateful to others. She is also easy to forgive others. Lee can be very bad to her (I do that in my asshole Lee playthrough: scold her, don't feed her, let she see a lot of bad things, etc.) but she still remember him as her best friend. She doesn't want people die, even the St. Johns, even Larry, who nearly killed Lee. So it's okay for her to forgive Kenny's being an asshole in S1 and just remember how he sacrifices himself in S2E3. However, it's also better to get a "not forgive Kenny" option, as she can say that Arvo deserves to get beaten.
PS. Clem cries for Omid... Poor Omid... In S1 Lee becomes jealous of him, for Clem never stops him swearing... Christa also says Clem always agrees with him... But he's just killed and hardly gets mentioned then.
Edit: It makes me not able to stop laughing to see Kennyfan's regarding him as a Saint. Kenny is not a bad guy, but he's never a Saint.
Edit 2: Kenny tried to use Clem to rebuild a family, but Clem is the very one who breaks Kenny's dream of "rebuilding a family like the one he had in S1". So ironic.
"His reactions are much harsher and he's more distrusting towards strangers."
Actually according to the way he ends up in S1, especially with Ben not being dropped, I think he should develop another way. At least he should learn to put himself in other's shoes.
Ive always thought that Kenny shouldn't have come back for many of the reasons you stated. Imagine what a different game it would have been, and how different our relationships with the other characters would have been. I dont know if I would have gotten the things I wanted out of the season, Christa back for example, but I know I didnt this season.
Yeah Clem probably cried for Omid, but again this was still clem when she was 9, not two years later and again it didnt actually show her crying onscreen. The point is shes still upset due to death not to just leaving/staying with someone.
Not probably. In that restroom she did cry for him. TTG just doesn't bother itself to put the milk-like tears on her cheeks. I understand your point... I just feel a little bad that people forget details about Omid... I like that guy.
PS. I also think the development of Jane's characteristics is not natural enough. What do you think about that?
Yeah shes sniffling but she does that with others in the season in all Kenny endings its full blown tears
Jane was good for me, apart from after clem gets shot she starts riling up Kenny and that dosnt seem in character for a cautious person like her. And again the baby hiding thing seemed a bit extreme but who knows. I liked her character in a sense of how a loner would really be in that world, cold,cruel and blunt with a reason behind it. She was a vast improvement on the cartoonish Molly from the first season
Also clem reminds her of her sister and the bond she formed with her made sense (though again clems engagement in this was varied on the player) however why she suddenly had feelings for Luke after some quick sex I dont get, she was more upset than Clementine about his death
You're saying Clementine had to have someone she knew from before? Why? I thought it was supposed to be Clem adjusting to her circumstances and meeting new people. I would rather Omid and Christa stayed if that was the case.
I feel christa and omid wernt meant to come back either however many people cant seem to take a character leaving screen alive, there has to be a body. Also again they had to do that timeskip which seems still a bit pointless, clem would have been simaler without the miss of all that development
It doesn't necessarily have to be viewed as fan service though. It doesn't have to rely on how he was viewed in season one. Telltale simply kept to his script, and that's fine. He was already a dynamic character. Changing a character just for the sake of doing it isn't always a good thing, and it definitely isn't necessary.
As a Kenny fan, I was going through each episode practically praying that he wasn't going to die. I definitely didn't feel like he had plot armor. Going into episode 5 I pretty much felt like he was going to die for sure.
But again, just because you as the player didn't have a personal liking of Kenny, that doesn't mean Clementine the character can't have emotional ties to him. Based on the knowledge that we have about her feelings towards him and his family in season one, we know that she had a level of emotional attachment. In season two, of course those things are going to come into play in regards to how they react to one another. That being said, you can start to act indifferent towards his ideas, or you can openly disagree with him. You are never forced to be in agreement with him. I'm honestly not sure why you think otherwise. More times than not there is an option to offer disagreement. I can list some examples if you want me to, but I'm assuming you know what they are considering you probably went that route yourself.
There are a lot of people that really like Jane as well. Regardless, the point I was making is that there were other main/important/in depth characters in the story even with Kenny around. Jane is proof that the writers could have gone further in depth with a few more members of the cabin group if they really wanted to. Having Kenny in the story didn't prevent that from happening.
I don't really understand how you can pin your theory all one character. Why do Jane, Bonnie, and Mike get free passes? Maybe Telltale should have stuck with the cabin group members a little longer instead of introducing three new characters and killing off several members of the cabin group. (I'm not saying Telltale actually should have done this... just making a point).
Thanks, OP, for summing up everything I feel about Kenny's presence in Season 2.
I honestly feel that the second Season would have felt stronger if the writers didn't have him as a crutch and constant reminder of how cool Season 1 was.
Remember that Kenny started the fight by insulting her and calling her 'nothing'.
Its not really about liking the character though it s about how well the character was implemented. That said if you like Kenny it probably would have been pretty enjoyable
If it's not writer's bias, then why does Kenny get this sympathetic emotional send off while other characters don't get that kind of thing, mostly Nick and Sarah in this season? Why do other episodes paint other members for being stupid for not following Kenny's rules? Why are his endings more emotional while Jane's endings aren't quite in that spectrum, why does he get so much development, while are others are chopped liver? He's fan service, and I simply can't look past that. The relationship with Lee made sense because Lee looked after her when her parents were nowhere to be found and Lee took it in his heart to look after Clem, and please don't resort o the three month time skip excuse, it doesn't work and it makes the relationship even more problematic in the fact that it's based on something we never saw(in my opinion). As for Clem's relationship with Kenny, her drawing of him and his family in season 1 was PITY, not emotional attachment, any rational person would feel sorry for Kenny at that point, other than that, there was nothing there for me to buy that these two would have a father daughter relationship, it's simply not developed enough and it just feels forced in alot of ways, it doesn't feel natural at all to me, and it constantly keeps me from liking this relationship.
I never said anything about it being writer's bias or not..
I simply said that is poor reasoning for saying a character should not have been involved in the season. It has nothing to do with it really.
Outside of Kenny sometimes doing that himself, that was never done at all. Heck, Kenny was generally in the minority, and faced more criticism than anyone else really.
So you're saying that he was further developed in season two then? He wasn't just a rehash of his season one self? Interesting.
Anyway, you're exaggerating. Jane and Luke were both pretty well developed. Even Mike and Bonnie were to an extent. Walt in his very short screen time was well developed.
Do you have any examples to show how Kenny received "so much more" development in comparison to some of the other major characters?
I disagree.
And Kenny isn't allowed to do the same why..? Why is he not allowed to take it in turn to watch out for Clem? He considers Clem family.
I'll use the "excuse", because it is legitimate. We don't know what happened in those three months, so it is reasonable to assume they made some kind of emotional connection given that they do in fact care about one another. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than just magically starting to care about one another out of the blue.
That's just guesswork, and we don't even know when she made the drawing. What about the fact that she keeps the drawing with her for years? If she had disliked Kenny or been indifferent towards him I doubt she would A) Make that drawing in the first place and
Keep it with her for as long as she did.
Ultimately this evidence isn't even needed. When Clem met up with Kenny is season one she was clearly very happy to see him. That is all the evidence anyone needs. Telltale clearly showed us that the two cared about one another.
Who said it had to be a "father-daughter" relationship..? I wouldn't label their relationship like that at all.
How the hell is Mike developed? You barely get to know him in this season, he's just along for the ride, nothing more, he's there to be the generic nice guy until the contrived scenario where he betrays everyone. Bonnie is all over the place, and I'm not really invested in her character, because like Luke, she's just there to be the nice person, even though I like her, this season just doesn't give me enough time to get invested in her character, Luke has the same problem in that his personal issues feel forced and he's kind of the generic nice guy for the player, even though I though his character could have gone somewhere interesting. Yeah, Telltale showed us that Clem was happy to see Kenny because season 2 is based on this entire idea that Clem and Kenny have been best pals since season 1, which I really fail to see how they have a bond, considering WE NEVER SEE IT after the time skip, NO EVIDENCE OF IT AT ALL. "It makes a hell of alot more sense than just magically starting to care one another out of the blue", < THIS is pretty much what happens in this season for me. Of course, Kenny is allowed, but it needs to make sense and be natural, and there at least needs to be some kind of build up to it. Most of the time Kenny is a rehashing when Nick Breckon isn't writing him, episode 5 at least showed he was sort of going somewhere, but too late, since it's the last episode and Kenny has done nothing interesting for his character in this season so far. I really don't see Kenny's return as anything other than fan service, considering that Telltale don't even bother to give us a proper explanation for his return, "I got lucky" is not going to cut, especially when the episodes are cut short because Telltale are in over their heads.
They are as developed as basically any other secondary characters in the game (season one,-season two). We don't really know much about their past, but whatever.
I'm not sure why you're ignoring the Jane example. Again, Jane is proof that Telltale can make in depth characters/ developed characters with Kenny around.
This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Kenny though.
What characters in either season have been more developed than Luke? Doug? No. Carley? Not really. Molly? No. Katjaa? No. Duck? No. Lilly? No. Larry? No. Chuck? No. Omid? No. Christa? No. Ben? No.
If you disagree with those, could you explain why?
Doesn't really matter either way. It proves that they cared about each other.
We don't have to see them be all buddy-buddy in season one in order for the two to have a canonical connection of some kind.
I mean, Lee is basically the only character in season one who we see openly interact with Clementine. That doesn't mean that no one else cared about her. Its just how the game was set up.
It made perfect sense. They clearly had some emotional attachment from season one. Why is that so hard for people to swallow?
I don't know what kind of buildup you're looking for, but the relationship really wasn't that overbearing or anything. For the vast majority of the game, he pretty much just acted like your pal. It really wasn't all that thick with emotion.
A poor explanation doesn't = fan service.
Honestly though, Kenny's explanation was a lot more realistic/natural than him divulging what he did exactly to get out of the situation that he was in at the end of season one. Obviously us as the players want to know more, but it was kind of a tricky subject to address without it sounding really forced.
Honestly I don't think the main problem is Kenny's return, rather it is what this return influenced. Had other characters been given time to properly develop, more time was given to bond with characters, and if the game did not seem so rushed, then I don't think anyone would have minded Kenny's return. He would simply be another character in the game among the others.
Kenny died in Season 1.
Originally, Telltale made us believe he was dead, but his real death scene involved him screaming and had a more gruesome death scene. Its unknown why Telltale brought him back to life, but his story on how he survived getting out of Savannah was poorly written because there was no story, he wasn't supposed to survive.
They brought Kenny back because he was too good a character to leave behind in season 1. That's all there is to it.
And Kenny "doesn't fit in season two" simply because these certain individuals do not like him.
I guess I shouldn't generalize like that.. but I really think that is the major factor.
J-Master
Thank you, Those were other points I was thinking about but wasnt sure how to write them out, The bias can be seen in the fcat every single ending is a peak emotional moment and the aftermath shows clem very upset. Take the Luke death, clem looks sad for a minute and then clem goes its okay to jane in the aftermath comforting her when it should be the other way round really, clem has the most blank emotionless face during that scene as well.
I'm sorry to resort to a tired meme, but...
There was a whole scene in episode 3 where Mike pointed out just how blatantly IDIOTIC Kenny's plan to escape Carver's compound was. You can accuse Kenny of having plot armour if you like, but you can't accuse the writers of treating him with kiddie gloves.
I view the replies and find a funny idea.
You think it hurts the story bring Kenny back <=> You don't like Kenny
How can they just think that way?
To tell you the truth I have mixed feeling for Kenny. I don't like a tons of things he did. But I find that it's just easier for me to forgive him for doing these shits than to forgive many of the others for doing almost the same. After my 1st playthrough I think of him a lot, and after I get all the endings I have to admit that I feel worse if the one getting killed is him, not Jane. TTG does succeed in having us get a tons of emotion for that guy, by keeping torturing him physically & mentally and having him sacrifice himself for Clem at some key points.
BUT I never think it's a good idea to bring him back like this. It gets feelings from the player for ONE character, but it makes the whole story sucks. It's a little bit like making a Mary Sue. Not exactly the same, but very similiar.
I guess she didn't care about Luke as much as she did Kenny. Oh well. That's the story. Its not bad just because you wish it was different.
Seriously, I really think people only dislike Kenny's presence because they are sick of him/ don't like him. There really aren't any other legitimate reasons.
Wow, I don´t even...
I can´t believe what I just read.
Yes! This! Mike and Rebecca point out how stupid, unpredictable and dangerous Kenny's plan is. That's why the whole group huddles together, bounces some other ideas around to find a better plan... Oh wait. No. That didn't happen. Kenny puts forth a plan, and bitches at anyone who doesn't agree with him until they accept his idea.
Not exactly kiddie gloves, but Kenny was definitely vindicated at pretty much every opportunity by the writers. It doesn't matter how insane or brutal or unnecessary his plans and actions are. In the end, Kenny is always proven right. Other characters are only right when and if they agree with Kenny. That really irked me while playing this season.
I dont know how many more points I could have put in the OP to say its not this. I even started with I didnt like him in season 1 but I felt he was a good character, this season not so much due to all the stuff I said.