Does it make sense that so many people got the same history, in the ZA, withouth different details, if Wellington was really just a story?
… more
You should learn something about how rumors form.
One statement made impulsively, out of anger, doesn´t mean anything. He could not force her, he never did. And he could not bring himself to leave her, so he could just have done what Clem wanted him to.
Out of sadness and disappointment, not anger.
Who he cares more about? AJ or Clementine? If he cares more about AJ, he would just leave Clem, if she doesnt want to search for Wellington. And as far as i've seen it, Kenny cares more about him than her.
I know of rumors form. I also know that in the ZA is not the same thing by any means, and that there is no reason for Wellington to be just a history.
Even Molly was telling rumors about Crawford, and she had no idea that their community was destroyed long time ago. There is no reason to put your life at risk for a rumor.
Clem.
Duh.
Well he surely shows this bad way then. Putting her in danger in the truck and later with the walkie talkie, not helping her when walkers attack her at Howe's, blaming her for Sarita's fate, leaving her alone in the herd, blaming more about Sarita, ignoring her so he could beat Arvo, ignoring her opinion is she wants to go south, ignoring her when she tries to calm him down, killing her friend... Im sure there is even more.
Why could you think that?
It just felt like he cared more about AJ. Just my opinion.
You should learn something about how rumors form.
I know of rumors form. I also know that in the ZA is not the same thing by any mea… morens, and that there is no reason for Wellington to be just a history.
Out of sadness and disappointment,
Yes. I wrote that before watching the vid and did not change it when I quoted it. In any case, the point still stands.
Who he cares more about? AJ or Clementine?
Clem.
Duh.
And as far as i've seen it, Kenny cares more about him than her.
Why could you think that?
Even Molly was telling rumors about Crawford, and she had no idea that their community was destroyed long time ago.
She was telling what she knew, not rumors.
Putting her in danger in the truck
Kenny: If we let ourselves be trapped like dogs, we are dead.
Or something like that, i don´t remember the exact line.
and later with the walkie talkie,
We already talked about this.
First of all, Kenny had good reasons. Trusting Clem more that Mike, and that Clem was the best option for sneaking around. Troy as just barged into the room, and there was no time to discuss anything. Kenny took a chance, and put the walkie in Clem´s pockets quickly, so that Troy could not take notice. Besides, all of this is meaningless, since Clem never disagrees to take the walkie. She accepts the danger.Besides, I personally don´t believe Clem was ever in any danger, considering the respect Carver shows for her, but that´s irrelevant here.
not helping her when walkers attack her at Howe's,
dafuq? I am going to assume you mean the moment in which you find Kenny restraining Mike agaist the wallk. In that situation, he knew Clem could hadled it, he was pretty busy himself with walkers and went Clem was cornered Troy entered and went to Clem before Kenny could do anything.
blaming her for Sarita's fate,
If you cut her arm off, then Kenny has a pretty good reason to blame Clementine. And even then, he apologizes to her in No Going Back.
If you don´t, he is irrational with grief and he apologizes later.
ignoring her so he could beat Arvo,
What? No, no, no. He got carried away, once, out of anger. Nothing more. Don´t make it something that it is not.
leaving her alone in the herd,
Ah, ah, ah, good one.
Oh, wait, you are serious.
In some scenarios Mike drags Kenny away. That he did not look back doesn´t mean he was deliberatibily leavin her. He obviously expected her to follow, and she did, but she stumbled agaist the herd of walkers and got lost.
ignoring her opinion is she wants to go south,
Kenny: You don´t know how much it hurts to hear you say that.
I don´t think he is ignoring it, far for it.
ignoring her when she tries to calm him down
When, exactly?
killing her friend
By friend, I suppose you mean Jane.
That´s determinant.
Besides, Jane could have stopped the figth and any moment and she did not do it, so its not all Kenny´s fault. Jane wanted to kill Kenny as much as Kenny wanted to kill Jane.
It just felt like he cared more about AJ. Just my opinion.
I know of rumors form. I also know that in the ZA is not the same thing by any means, and that there is no reason for Wellington to be just … morea history.
Even Molly was telling rumors about Crawford, and she had no idea that their community was destroyed long time ago. There is no reason to put your life at risk for a rumor.
Clem.
Duh.
Well he surely shows this bad way then. Putting her in danger in the truck and later with the walkie talkie, not helping her when walkers attack her at Howe's, blaming her for Sarita's fate, leaving her alone in the herd, blaming more about Sarita, ignoring her so he could beat Arvo, ignoring her opinion is she wants to go south, ignoring her when she tries to calm him down, killing her friend... Im sure there is even more.
Why could you think that?
It just felt like he cared more about AJ. Just my opinion.
As far as they knew, it was a rumor and even she didnt know the current state of Crawford, just like everyone who rumored about Wellington didnt know if it exists or if its still there.
Kenny: If we let ourselves be trapped like dogs, we are dead.
Or something like that, i don´t remember the exact line.
The plan was retarded... Even you have to admit that. At that moment, they had better chances staying alive by just sitting nicely there, rather than trying to beat armed guards.
dafuq? I am going to assume you mean the moment in which you find Kenny restraining Mike agaist the wallk. In that situation, he knew Clem could hadled it, he was pretty busy himself with walkers and went Clem was cornered Troy entered and went to Clem before Kenny could do anything.
Well she couldnt handle the walkers. Every time i played it, Troy saved Clementine. Without Troy, Clementine would most likely be dead.
If you cut her arm off, then Kenny has a pretty good reason to blame Clementine. And even then, he apologizes to her in No Going Back.
If you don´t, he is irrational with grief and he apologizes later.
She did the only thing she knew would possibly save Sarita. Cant blame Clementine for that.
What? No, no, no. He got carried away, once, out of anger. Nothing more. Don´t make it something that it is not.
But he proved that is might ignore Clementines safety if he is angry, just like in the walker herd.
He obviously expected her to follow, and she did, but she stumbled agaist the herd of walkers and got lost.
Yeah, what i said earlier. Blinded by his anger. "this is on your head" or something.
Kenny: You don´t know how much it hurts to hear you say that.
I don´t think he is ignoring it, far for it.
You left the important part out. "tomorrow, you'll see how wrong you are" , implying that he will go north anyway and Clem is following.
When, exactly?
In the car and after he made up his mind that Jane has killed AJ.
By friend, I suppose you mean Jane.
That´s determinant.
I suppose so, Jane, just like Kenny wants to be your friend no matter your interactions.
Besides, Jane could have stopped the figth and any moment and she did not do it, so its not all Kenny´s fault. Jane wanted to kill Kenny as much as Kenny wanted to kill Jane.
Never said it was completely on Kenny. They both got carried away but what i care about the fight is what Kenny thought happened and how he acted upon that assumption. Jane defended herself until the fight escalated more and she was forced to pull out her knife again.
Even Molly was telling rumors about Crawford, and she had no idea that their community was destroyed long time ago.
She was telling … morewhat she knew, not rumors.
Putting her in danger in the truck
Kenny: If we let ourselves be trapped like dogs, we are dead.
Or something like that, i don´t remember the exact line.
and later with the walkie talkie,
We already talked about this.
First of all, Kenny had good reasons. Trusting Clem more that Mike, and that Clem was the best option for sneaking around. Troy as just barged into the room, and there was no time to discuss anything. Kenny took a chance, and put the walkie in Clem´s pockets quickly, so that Troy could not take notice. Besides, all of this is meaningless, since Clem never disagrees to take the walkie. She accepts the danger.Besides, I personally don´t believe Clem was ever in any danger, considering the respect Carver shows for her, but that´s irre… [view original content]
As far as they knew, it was a rumor and even she didnt know the current state of Crawford, just like everyone who rumored about Wellington didnt know if it exists or if its still there.
And? I am just saying that what Molly said were facts.
The plan was retarded...
Yes.
Well she couldnt handle the walkers. Every time i played it, Troy saved Clementine. Without Troy, Clementine would most likely be dead.
...
He was pretty busy himself with walkers and went Clem was cornered Troy entered and went to Clem before Kenny could do anything.
She did the only thing she knew would possibly save Sarita. Cant blame Clementine for that.
Can´t blame Clem for killing Sarita?
Okay.
Good to know.
But he proved that is might ignore Clementines safety if he is angry, just like in the walker herd.
He could not have do anything anyways. He had nothing to star at fire, only Jane did. Besides, it was after Clem and AJ nearly got killed. He hated Arvo for that.
Yeah, what i said earlier. Blinded by his anger. "this is on your head" or something.
Nope. He expected Clem to follow him, but she got lost.
You left the important part out. "tomorrow, you'll see how wrong you are" , implying that he will go north anyway and Clem is following.
We have already talked about this, too. If Clementine did not want to look for Wellington, he could not force her. He would not even bring himself to leave her. So, if she refused, Kenny could have ended up doing whatever Clem wanted to do. One line said out of sadness doesn´t mean anything.
In the car
I am going to tell you a secret: Jan also doesn´t calm down, not matter what Clem tells her.
and after he made up his mind that Jane has killed AJ.
What did you expect?
Never said it was completely on Kenny. They both got carried away but what i care about the fight is what Kenny thought happened and how he acted upon that assumption. Jane defended herself until the fight escalated more and she was forced to pull out her knife again.
You let out the part about faking a baby´s death and that Jane intended to kill Kenny for the start.
She was telling what she knew, not rumors.
As far as they knew, it was a rumor and even she didnt know the current state of Crawford… more, just like everyone who rumored about Wellington didnt know if it exists or if its still there.
Kenny: If we let ourselves be trapped like dogs, we are dead.
Or something like that, i don´t remember the exact line.
The plan was retarded... Even you have to admit that. At that moment, they had better chances staying alive by just sitting nicely there, rather than trying to beat armed guards.
dafuq? I am going to assume you mean the moment in which you find Kenny restraining Mike agaist the wallk. In that situation, he knew Clem could hadled it, he was pretty busy himself with walkers and went Clem was cornered Troy entered and went to Clem before Kenny could do anything.
Well she couldnt handle the walkers. Every time i played it, Troy saved Clementine. Without Troy, Clement… [view original content]
Carver - Started with good intentions in keeping people safe but crossed the line and became possessive and maniacal shown in how he relentlessly follows the Cabin Group, tortures and kills Alvin, tortures Carlos, beats Kenny, kills Reggie. 10/10 bad dude, kill on the spot.
Larry - The guy was a real jerk, but really was just protecting his daughter in his own asshole way. He also showed concern for Clementine at the end of Episode 1. So he's not that bad. 5/10 not that bad, just cranky.
Stranger - He leaves his car wide open and doesn't expect someone to steal his stuff? Then brainwashes Clem into coming to him? No. 7/10 would kill because he steals someone elses little girl and is obviously off his rocker.
Nate - "What do ya think Russ? Should we kill these folks and take all their stuff?" **psychotic look of glee* The only bad guy that makes me feel creeped and makes me laugh at the same time. Still, he was a nut. 8/10 would kill.
Arvo - I know, he shot Clem! But he's just a kid as well. He's Ben's age. He never had a chance to become a developed character. 3/10, I probably wouldn't kill him.
On another note, screw that chick that shot BrOmid!
And? I am just saying that what Molly said were facts.
And im just saying Kenny and Lee couldnt have possibly known if that was true or not.
Can´t blame Clem for killing Sarita?
Okay.
Rhere was only 2 bad options. Cutting the arm was less bad in theory.
He could not have do anything anyways. He had nothing to star at fire, only Jane did. Besides, it was after Clem and AJ nearly got killed. He hated Arvo for that.
Kenny had jacket on, which he could have given to Clementine and ever head such thing as body heat? Even if Clementine asks for help, he just ignores you after thinking for a second and starts complaining about the house and starts to beat Arvo. He just cant control his rage and imo, this makes him too dangerous to be around.
Nope. He expected Clem to follow him, but she got lost.
It didnt seem like it when he angrily said that its Clems fault.
One line said out of sadness doesn´t mean anything.
So i guess we can ignore other dialogues also, if people were emotional while they said something?
I am going to tell you a secret: Jan also doesn´t calm down, not matter what Clem tells her.
This is about Kenny. And of course Jane down calm down in the fight, since Kenny tried to punch her before she even did or said anything, charged at her when she put her knife away and charged again while she was on the ground.
What did you expect?
Irrational and stubborn behaviour like usual.
You let out the part about faking a baby´s death and that Jane intended to kill Kenny for the start.
And where is your proof that Jane actually planned to kill Kenny right from the start? She surely knew it was a possibility that Kenny would try to kill her, but Kenny is the one who first talks about killing Jane in the fight.
As far as they knew, it was a rumor and even she didnt know the current state of Crawford, just like everyone who rumored about Wellington d… moreidnt know if it exists or if its still there.
And? I am just saying that what Molly said were facts.
The plan was retarded...
Yes.
Well she couldnt handle the walkers. Every time i played it, Troy saved Clementine. Without Troy, Clementine would most likely be dead.
...
He was pretty busy himself with walkers and went Clem was cornered Troy entered and went to Clem before Kenny could do anything.
She did the only thing she knew would possibly save Sarita. Cant blame Clementine for that.
Can´t blame Clem for killing Sarita?
Okay.
Good to know.
But he proved that is might ignore Clementines safety if he is angry, just like in the walker herd.
He could not have do anything anyways. He had nothing to star at fire, only Jane did. Besides,… [view original content]
The St. John's, I mean how can you forget them, they ATE people!
Also it's implied that they may also have been rapists, so yeah the St. John's are the worst!
And im just saying Kenny and Lee couldnt have possibly known if that was true or not.
Well, if you fail the QTE, at Molly ends up pointing Lee´s gun to his head and his about to kill him, and stops just because a child calls out Lee´s name, saying that they are not for Crawford, I don´t think there is much reason to not believe her. If you do win the QTE, then that´s another matter.
But this is irrelevant, since the cases are pretty diferrent. Molly and Vernon´s group were the only people talking about Crawford, but Wellington was know by Christa, Clem, Carver and we can assume that Howe´s Hardware know its too, Matthew and the rest of the Moonstra Loodge group.
Kenny had jacket on, which he could have given to Clementine and ever head such thing as body heat?
Yes. I just said he could not have started a fire.
Even if Clementine asks for help, he just ignores you after thinking for a second and starts complaining about the house and starts to beat Arvo. He just cant control his rage and imo, this makes him too dangerous to be around.
Kenny, just in season 2:
-The Cabin Group came and destroyed his life.
-Walter is dead, Mathew his dead.
-He is brutally beated by Carver, loses a eye.
-Sarita gets bitten, and dies.
-He has to survive with the people that cause the entery situation to happen.
-Everybody talks about Kenny and how bad is state of mind is instead of helping him, just after Sarita´s death and the herd or when Sarita is dying.
-Clem and AJ nearly get killed.
-Luke dies.
I think this gives him enougth reason to get carried away with rage and forget Clem, once and only once...
It didnt seem like it when he angrily said that its Clems fault.
Does that mean that he could leave Clem to die at the herd? She simply got lost, and nothing else.
So i guess we can ignore other dialogues also, if people were emotional while they said something?
Is not just that. You are ignoring his entery character. He never actually forces her about anything, and you are blowing that one line out of proportion.
This is about Kenny.
And? You are saying Kenny doesn´t care about Clem just because he doesn´t calm down in a figth, but its a fact that Jane also doesn´t calm down. What does that mean, by your own logic?
And of course Jane down calm down in the fight,
So its rigth for Jane not to calm down because Jane is Jane, and is also rigth for you to ignore that is not that she doesn´t calm down but that she never intended to calm down in the first place because she wanted to kill Kenny?
Okay.
ince Kenny tried to punch her before she even did or said anything,
Jane: He is...
She saids things much before Kenny trows the first puch, intantead of, you know, actually explaining.
charged at her when she put her knife away
Shee wanted to give him an opening so the fight could happen.
Jane (as she sheaths the knife): Don´t you come near me, you son of a bitch.
I don´t know about you, but I certainly could not be stupid enough to taunt and insult my opponent if I wanted to stop a fight. So is clear that she wanted it to happen.
and charged again while she was on the ground.
Lol, what? Jane could have standed up instead of escalating the figth by slashing Kenny, especially because Kenny was not even back on his feet when Jane goes for the knife.
Irrational and stubborn behaviour like usual.
I think it was a rational response, honestly. Jane said that AJ is dead, and she is unharmed, so there is only one logical conclusion. Jane killed AJ. She left him behind because, in a snowstorm chased by walkers, the baby was just a liability.
And where is your proof that Jane actually planned to kill Kenny right from the start?
You know, apart that Jane wants to leave with the car, leaving Kenny in a snowstorm, with only a gun and withouth any supplies? Besides, where is your proof that Jane did not intend to kill Kenny, zykelator? What other explanation is there? She had too many chances to stop the figth, and she did not take any of them. She wanted to kill Kenny.
She surely knew it was a possibility that Kenny would try to kill her,
Possibility? She sure as hell knew it.
but Kenny is the one who first talks about killing Jane in the fight
And Jane is the first one to go for the kill.
You know, the whole 'slashing his stomatch and nearly spilling his guts out' part.
And? I am just saying that what Molly said were facts.
And im just saying Kenny and Lee couldnt have possibly known if that was true… more or not.
Can´t blame Clem for killing Sarita?
Okay.
Rhere was only 2 bad options. Cutting the arm was less bad in theory.
He could not have do anything anyways. He had nothing to star at fire, only Jane did. Besides, it was after Clem and AJ nearly got killed. He hated Arvo for that.
Kenny had jacket on, which he could have given to Clementine and ever head such thing as body heat? Even if Clementine asks for help, he just ignores you after thinking for a second and starts complaining about the house and starts to beat Arvo. He just cant control his rage and imo, this makes him too dangerous to be around.
Nope. He expected Clem to follow him, but she got lost.
It didnt seem like it when he angrily said that its Clems fault.
One line said out of sadness do… [view original content]
Why Vernon? He actually did something good for the group, he helped Omid and also stole the boat, and we all knew that boat would probably bring problems.
Why Vernon? He actually did something good for the group, he helped Omid and also stole the boat, and we all knew that boat would probably bring problems.
Well, I am not even going to comment on what you said about the boat, because is just... But well, next time, please brother to read everything before responding, okay?
I said:
Well, I don´t hate Vernon at all. He is a more humane character that Carver, Larry, Nate, Arvo or the Stranger. Is just that he is also a antagonist, so it doesn´t make sense he is not on the list.
Why Vernon? He actually did something good for the group, he helped Omid and also stole the boat, and we all knew that boat would probably bring problems.
but Wellington was know by Christa, Clem, Carver and we can assume that Howe´s Hardware know its too, Matthew and the rest of the Moonstra Loodge group.
No, they had heard about it, they didnt know if it was real.
Yes. I just said he could not have started a fire.
He could have still helped be decided not to.
I think this gives him enougth reason to get carried away with rage and forget Clem, once and only once...
Yeah, i know he has gone through a lot, but i wouldnt want to be around person like that. I liked Lilly also, but she was just too great threat to me or my friends, even if her state of mind was justified. Thats why i left her also.
Does that mean that he could leave Clem to die at the herd? She simply got lost, and nothing else.
Say what you want. It doesnt change anything.
Is not just that. You are ignoring his entery character. He never actually forces her about anything, and you are blowing that one line out of proportion.
Well actually he does. Forces you to take the radio, forces you to save Alvin because he still wants to keep killing back in the lodge, After you get shot, he starts driving to north, even if you said no, and he has no intentions of driving any other direction (forces you to go north), forces you to shoot him in order to save Jane (dont whine about this).
You are saying Kenny doesn´t care about Clem just because he doesn´t calm down in a figth, but its a fact that Jane also doesn´t calm down. What does that mean, by your own logic?
Kenny is the one who start punching before asking, even if you ask him to stop.
So its rigth for Jane not to calm down because Jane is Jane, and is also rigth for you to ignore that is not that she doesn´t calm down but that she never intended to calm down in the first place because she wanted to kill Kenny?
No, Kenny attacks her when she calms down, why should she try to calm down after that and just give Kenny another chance to attack her?
Shee wanted to give him an opening so the fight could happen.
Oh please... Dont feed that Belan bs to me.
Lol, what? Jane could have standed up instead of escalating the figth by slashing Kenny, especially because Kenny was not even back on his feet when Jane goes for the knife.
Jane was on the ground because Kenny/Clem pushed her to the ground and before she has time to stand up, Kenny is charging at her. If she didnt use the knife, Kenny could have easily pinned her to the floor and punch/choke her to death (another chance for Clem to intervene with gun). Kenny was on his feet and rushing towards Jane, check the scene again.
I think it was a rational response, honestly. Jane said that AJ is dead, and she is unharmed, so there is only one logical conclusion. Jane killed AJ. She left him behind because, in a snowstorm chased by walkers, the baby was just a liability.
How is it rational response, if he didnt even know what happened?
You know, apart that Jane wants to leave with the car, leaving Kenny in a snowstorm, with only a gun and withouth any supplies? Besides, where is your proof that Jane did not intend to kill Kenny, zykelator? What other explanation is there? She had too many chances to stop the figth, and she did not take any of them. She wanted to kill Kenny.
Yeah, because leaving someone behind is the same as killing them...
Well first of all she said that she was just trying to talk Clem to leave Kenny, after she saw what he is capable to do (whats the points of trying to make Clem leave a corpse behind?). She put her knife away after she saw that Kenny was calming down.
She didnt plan to kill Kenny, just show how crazy he is. She did know that Kenny might try to kill her, thus the dialogue "i knew you would" when Kenny is trying to kill her.
Possibility? She sure as hell knew it.
She thought she could take Kenny on her own and decide when the fight ends, but the writers decided to be idiots and gave Kenny godlike powers again. Slash wound on stomach, eye being gouged and still being able to win Jane in fight, who was still at good shape.
And Jane is the first one to go for the kill.
After Kenny yelled "you are dead", and she was on the floor, unable to do anything to Kenny who was rushing at her. Knife was the only option to keep him away.
And im just saying Kenny and Lee couldnt have possibly known if that was true or not.
Well, if you fail the QTE, at Molly ends up po… moreinting Lee´s gun to his head and his about to kill him, and stops just because a child calls out Lee´s name, saying that they are not for Crawford, I don´t think there is much reason to not believe her. If you do win the QTE, then that´s another matter.
But this is irrelevant, since the cases are pretty diferrent. Molly and Vernon´s group were the only people talking about Crawford, but Wellington was know by Christa, Clem, Carver and we can assume that Howe´s Hardware know its too, Matthew and the rest of the Moonstra Loodge group.
Kenny had jacket on, which he could have given to Clementine and ever head such thing as body heat?
Yes. I just said he could not have started a fire.
Even if Clementine asks for help, he just ignores you after thinking for a second and starts complainin… [view original content]
Really, I'd say neither of them are, but if I had to say one was an antagonist over the other, I'd say Jane, she tried to manipulate Kenny into going over the edge, so it was more purposeful, whereas Kenny just... snapped.
But really, I don't see either of them as antagonists, or Arvo. Just Carver really. Concerning this Season.
Really, I'd say neither of them are, but if I had to say one was an antagonist over the other, I'd say Jane, she tried to manipulate Kenny i… morento going over the edge, so it was more purposeful, whereas Kenny just... snapped.
But really, I don't see either of them as antagonists, or Arvo. Just Carver really. Concerning this Season.
I'd waste Carver in a second. The others at least had reasons, even if they were flimsy in some cases, for their actions. Carver just enjoyed hurting people and looked for any excuse to do it. Plus, he would be the biggest threat out of all those characters. He had an entire community at his beck and call. At least if he dies, there would eb a chance for someone slightly less on the insane side of the spectrum to take over.
No, they had heard about it, they didnt know if it was real.
That´s why I said ''know'', not ''know it was real''. But you are still ignoring than thats a lot of people to hear about Wellington, in the ZA, and that there is no reason to make up a commonunity.
He could have still helped be decided not to.
"Decided" is too strong of a word.
Yeah, i know he has gone through a lot, but i wouldnt want to be around person like that.
You could not what to be around the person who could rather die that let anything happen to you?
...
Okay.
I liked Lilly also, but she was just too great threat to me or my friends, even if her state of mind was justified. Thats why i left her also.
You know, killing Carley/Doug is much worse that hitting the one that nearly got them all killed, but maybe that´s just my opinion.
Say what you want. It doesnt change anything.
Ironic, coming from you.
Forces you to take the radio
I believe that we have already talked about this, but it was not forced. Clem doesn´t refuse to take the radio.
forces you to save Alvin because he still wants to keep killing back in the lodge,
Forces? Shooting was the only sane decision. If he gave out, for all he knew, Carver could have killed him.
After you get shot, he starts driving to north,
You can said no before, but you don´t get a dialogue option to disaggre with driving north. You just get options to try at make them stop figthing.
forces you to shoot him in order to save Jane (dont whine about this).
I don´t think Clem was forced to kill him-especially because she could have shoot in the knee or something, instead of the chest.
No, Kenny attacks her when she calms down, why should she try to calm down after that and just give Kenny another chance to attack her?
She doesn´t calm down. And she sure as hell doesn´t want Kenny to calm down either.
Jane (as she sheaths the knife): Don´t you come near me, you son of a bitch.
Oh please... Dont feed that Belan bs to me.
I don´t know about you, but I certainly could not be stupid enough to taunt and insult my opponent if I wanted to stop a fight. So is clear that she wanted it to happen.
Jane was on the ground because Kenny/Clem pushed her to the ground and before she has time to stand up,
She had plety of time to stand up, while Kenny is standing up. Instead of, you know, going for the knife and nearly spilling his guts.
How is it rational response, if he didnt even know what happened?
You mean, besides everything I said?
Yeah, because leaving someone behind is the same as killing them...
Leaving him behind, withouth supplies, in a snow storm, is the same as killing him.
Well first of all she said that she was just trying to talk Clem to leave Kenny, after she saw what he is capable to do
Are you serious? If that was all, she could have stopped the figth. And she didn´t.
For example, outside, when Jane is trying to poke his eyes out, and his whriting on the ground, screaming him pain. She could have run to the car where AJ was instead of continuing.
(whats the points of trying to make Clem leave a corpse behind?).
The point is that she wants to kill Kenny?
Just a thougth.
She put her knife away after she saw that Kenny was calming down.
And, then:
Jane (as she sheaths the knife): Don´t you come near me, you son of a bitch.
I don´t know about you, but I certainly could not be stupid enough to taunt and insult my opponent if I wanted to stop a fight. So is clear that she wanted it to happen.
She didnt plan to kill Kenny, just show how crazy he is. She did know that Kenny might try to kill her, thus the dialogue "i knew you would" when Kenny is trying to kill her.
And what do you think Jane, as rational as she is, thougth it could happen after Kenny thinks she killed AJ? That Kenny is going to say 'Sure, you fucking babykiller, just leave me behind and take the one person I care about for me. Is not like I will mind or anything'?
She thought she could take Kenny on her own and decide when the fight ends,
She had plety of chances to stop the figth.
but the writers decided to be idiots and gave Kenny godlike powers again. Slash wound on stomach, eye being gouged and still being able to win Jane in fight, who was still at good shape.
I could argue agaist this, but is pointless, because is not even relevant to the issue. What matters here is Jane´s intentions. Which are to kill Kenny.
After Kenny yelled "you are dead"
He only does that outside.
and she was on the floor, unable to do anything to Kenny who was rushing at her.
Kenny was not back on his feet when she went for the knife. Watch the scene again. Yes, he rushes towards her when she is on the group, but she could have stood up instead of escalating the figth.
but Wellington was know by Christa, Clem, Carver and we can assume that Howe´s Hardware know its too, Matthew and the rest of the Moonstra L… moreoodge group.
No, they had heard about it, they didnt know if it was real.
Yes. I just said he could not have started a fire.
He could have still helped be decided not to.
I think this gives him enougth reason to get carried away with rage and forget Clem, once and only once...
Yeah, i know he has gone through a lot, but i wouldnt want to be around person like that. I liked Lilly also, but she was just too great threat to me or my friends, even if her state of mind was justified. Thats why i left her also.
Does that mean that he could leave Clem to die at the herd? She simply got lost, and nothing else.
Say what you want. It doesnt change anything.
Is not just that. You are ignoring his entery character. He never actually forces her about anything, an… [view original content]
That´s why I said ''know'', not ''know it was real''. But you are still ignoring than thats a lot of people to hear about Wellington, in the ZA, and that there is no reason to make up a commonunity.
There is no reason to make up supernatural creatures either, but people still do it.
"Decided" is too strong of a word.
He looks at Clem and thinks for few seconds before deciding to ignore her and starts to complain about the house instead.
You could not what to be around the person who could rather die that let anything happen to you?
Considering that he would most likely be the one that puts me in deadly situations, no.
You know, killing Carley/Doug is much worse that hitting the one that nearly got them all killed, but maybe that´s just my opinion.
Who are you talking about? Kenny goes in same category as Lilly, Ben and the baby. Someone who puts others at risk simply by being around.
I believe that we have already talked about this, but it was not forced. Clem doesn´t refuse to take the radio.
That is just stupid, even from you. Do you expect that Clementine says "dont give me the radio", while Troy is watching Kenny and Clementine?
You can said no before, but you don´t get a dialogue option to disaggre with driving north. You just get options to try at make them stop figthing.
You can make it clear to Kenny that you do NOT want to go north, but he starts driving there anyway after you are shot and pass out. What a great friend.
I don´t think Clem was forced to kill him-especially because she could have shoot in the knee or something, instead of the chest.
Forced me to shoot anyway. Doesnt matter where you shoot, its never good.
She doesn´t calm down. And she sure as hell doesn´t want Kenny to calm down either.
Jane (as she sheaths the knife): Don´t you come near me, you son of a bitch.
She puts her knife away and Kenny attacks her. After that there is really no point to calm down and give him another chance to attack.
I don´t know about you, but I certainly could not be stupid enough to taunt and insult my opponent if I wanted to stop a fight. So is clear that she wanted it to happen.
And do you think Jane is stupid enough to try have a fair fight with someone? This would be completely against her character.
She had plety of time to stand up, while Kenny is standing up. Instead of, you know, going for the knife and nearly spilling his guts.
Kenny got up faster because Jane is pushed to the ground and he starts rushing at her... She had no other way to defend herself.
You mean, besides everything I said?
"Rationality is the quality or state of being reasonable, based on facts or reason." Would you like to rephrase your sentence?
Leaving him behind, withouth supplies, in a snow storm, is the same as killing him.
And? It was another Lilly situation. He was driving them north, where they would most likely just freeze to death, simply because of his personal beliefs.
Are you serious? If that was all, she could have stopped the figth. And she didn´t.
For example, outside, when Jane is trying to poke his eyes out, and his whriting on the ground, screaming him pain. She could have run to the car where AJ was instead of continuing.
After they are both down? Kenny would have just picked the knife and went after her. Or worse, take the gun from Clem.
The point is that she wants to kill Kenny?
Just a thougth.
So you're saying her plan was to kill Kenny and then talk Clementine to leave Kenny behind? I guess that makes sense.
And what do you think Jane, as rational as she is, thougth it could happen after Kenny thinks she killed AJ? That Kenny is going to say 'Sure, you fucking babykiller, just leave me behind and take the one person I care about for me. Is not like I will mind or anything'?
Well clearly her plan was stupid? She should have known how crazy Kenny can get, after what happened to Carver.
What matters here is Jane´s intentions. Which are to kill Kenny.
Intentions, which you have failed to prove. Im starting to think i should blame writers more and more as this debate moves on. They give plenty of times to make Clementine seem like she doesnt believe Kenny is a good guy anymore and she doesnt want to follow him, but then she suddenly cant leave him... Killing Kenny would have been avoided if Clementine wasnt such an idiot.
He only does that outside.
No... I've checked this when i was debating with Belan about the fight. he makes total of 4 threats before fight ends, 1 of them being determinant.
when Kenny is on the ground the first time and Jane punches him "you are dead"
When Kenny throws Jane to the ground "i'll fucking kill you"
When Kenny tries to stab her to death "i'll fucking kill you"
When jane is on the ground and Kenny slowly tries to overpower her "i aint gonna to let you..."
Kenny was not back on his feet when she went for the knife. Watch the scene again. Yes, he rushes towards her when she is on the group, but she could have stood up instead of escalating the figth.
No, they had heard about it, they didnt know if it was real.
That´s why I said ''know'', not ''know it was real''. But you are still… more ignoring than thats a lot of people to hear about Wellington, in the ZA, and that there is no reason to make up a commonunity.
He could have still helped be decided not to.
"Decided" is too strong of a word.
Yeah, i know he has gone through a lot, but i wouldnt want to be around person like that.
You could not what to be around the person who could rather die that let anything happen to you?
...
Okay.
I liked Lilly also, but she was just too great threat to me or my friends, even if her state of mind was justified. Thats why i left her also.
You know, killing Carley/Doug is much worse that hitting the one that nearly got them all killed, but maybe that´s just my opinion.
Say what you want. It doesnt change anything.
Ironic, coming from you.
… [view original content]
There is no reason to make up supernatural creatures either, but people still do it.
This is a different situation. We are talking about making up a Woodbury or Terminus, not supernatural creatures. Why do it? What reason is there? What benefits? What could make a person to suddenly make out something like that, spread it around and everything?
He looks at Clem and thinks for few seconds before deciding to ignore her and starts to complain about the house instead.
Deciding is too strong of a word. He is already too enraged with Arvo. He is not thinking clearly during that scene.
Considering that he would most likely be the one that puts me in deadly situations, no.
Why?
Who are you talking about?
I am saying that Lily killing Carley/Doug is much worse that Kenny hitting Arvo, the one who nearly got all of them killed.
Kenny goes in same category as Lilly, Ben and the baby. Someone who puts others at risk simply by being around.
Again, why?
That is just stupid, even from you. Do you expect that Clementine says "dont give me the radio", while Troy is watching Kenny and Clementine?
We have already talked about this before. You know what I mean. Before Troy even comes into the room, Clementine doesn´t refuse. She never said: no, I don´t want to the radio.
You can make it clear to Kenny that you do NOT want to go north, but he starts driving there anyway after you are shot and pass out. What a great friend.
I am sure that he could have acted differently if Mike and Bonnie did not betray the group, leaving them desperate and without supplies but they did. That Clementine refused to go north while they still had supplies and a big group doesn´t mean that Clementine will refuse when they don´t have supplies, and there is only the three of them and a baby.
Forced me to shoot anyway.
Okay.
Doesnt matter where you shoot, its never good.
Jane shoot Troy´s dick off. Just saying.
She puts her knife away and Kenny attacks her.
She wanted him to do it.
After that there is really no point to calm down and give him another chance to attack.
She could have calmed down, stop trying to kill Kenny and run to the car.
And do you think Jane is stupid enough to try have a fair fight with someone? This would be completely against her character.
A fair fight? Nah, you are misunderstanding me. She wanted to fight him, and kill him and sheathed the knife to give Kenny an opening so that the fight could happen. It doesn´t mean she could not take out the knife again.
Kenny got up faster because Jane is pushed to the ground and he starts rushing at her... She had no other way to defend herself.
Stop the video at 2:36. She has the knife in her hand already, and Kenny has not yet stood up.
"Rationality is the quality or state of being reasonable, based on facts or reason." Would you like to rephrase your sentence?
Exactly. Facts or reason. Kenny had some facts-Jane is unharmed, AJ dead- and reasoned that she had to have left AJ behind or did not try to save him.
And? It was another Lilly situation. He was driving them north, where they would most likely just freeze to death, simply because of his personal beliefs.
He was driving then north because of Wellington, because it was a good chance. But that´s irrelevant here. The point is that Jane wants to leave Kenny to die.
So you're saying her plan was to kill Kenny and then talk Clementine to leave Kenny behind? I guess that makes sense.
No. She tried to talk Clem to leave Kenny behind in the car. She saw that was not working, so she planned to kill Kenny- leave AJ in the car, say it was an accident and that he is dead- so that Kenny could try to kill her, and she could kill him in retaliation and/or having Kenny´s reaction make Clem think she is better of without Kenny.
After they are both down? Kenny would have just picked the knife and went after her. Or worse, take the gun from Clem.
And? I very much doubt he could have taken the gun for Clem, but even if that was a possibility, she is faster that Kenny and it could have taken him a few seconds, at least, to stand up. She probably could have reached the car already, so she could only have to open the door, showing that AJ is alive and well. Then, there could be no reason to continue the figth.
Well clearly her plan was stupid? She should have known how crazy Kenny can get, after what happened to Carver.
Jane: I knew you would.
She knew it perfectly. She planned on it.
Intentions, which you have failed to prove.
To you, maybe. To me, her intentions to leave him behind in a snowstorm is the same as showing the will to kill him. She has many chance to stop the fight, but she allowed the figth to continue.
They give plenty of times to make Clementine seem like she doesnt believe Kenny is a good guy anymore and she doesnt want to follow him, but then she suddenly cant leave him..
Why could she want to abandon Kenny, regardless of what she believes about him? Clem is not you, zykelator. She is just a little girl.
when Kenny is on the ground the first time and Jane punches him "you are dead"
Yeah, sorry, forgot about that
In any case, none of these threats are determinant.
Sigh... Do i really have to do this again?
Yes, Kenny rushes at Jane. We all know that. But::
Stop the video at 2:36. She has the knife in her hand already, and Kenny has not yet stood up.
That´s why I said ''know'', not ''know it was real''. But you are still ignoring than thats a lot of people to hear about Wellington, in the… more ZA, and that there is no reason to make up a commonunity.
There is no reason to make up supernatural creatures either, but people still do it.
"Decided" is too strong of a word.
He looks at Clem and thinks for few seconds before deciding to ignore her and starts to complain about the house instead.
You could not what to be around the person who could rather die that let anything happen to you?
Considering that he would most likely be the one that puts me in deadly situations, no.
You know, killing Carley/Doug is much worse that hitting the one that nearly got them all killed, but maybe that´s just my opinion.
Who are you talking about? Kenny goes in same category as Lilly, Ben and the baby. Someone who puts others at risk simply by being around.
I b… [view original content]
This is a different situation. We are talking about making up a Woodbury or Terminus, not supernatural creatures. Why do it? What reason is there? What benefits? What could make a person to suddenly make out something like that, spread it around and everything?
Yeah, thats the question. I have no idea.
He is not thinking clearly during that scene.
This happens too often imo, thus the reason i want to leave him.
Why?
All the situations i have stated before.
I am saying that Lily killing Carley/Doug is much worse that Kenny hitting Arvo, the one who nearly got all of them killed.
Oh? I wasnt talking about Arvo. I was talking about every possible situation where Kenny puts others in danger/gets them killed.
Again, why?
Because he has gone through so much? His judgement is often clouded and all that.
We have already talked about this before. You know what I mean. Before Troy even comes into the room, Clementine doesn´t refuse. She never said: no, I don´t want to the radio.
Saying that Mike should have it after Kenny wants Clementine to have it is not refusal?
That Clementine refused to go north while they still had supplies and a big group doesn´t mean that Clementine will refuse when they don´t have supplies, and there is only the three of them and a baby.
That sure didnt change Janes mind, then why should it change Clementines?
She could have calmed down, stop trying to kill Kenny and run to the car.
You still dont get it... She calmed down once and Kenny attacked her... Why would she be stupid enough to do it again?
Stop the video at 2:36. She has the knife in her hand already, and Kenny has not yet stood up.
Yes, because she was in bad position, laying on ground while Kenny got up faster. If Kenny didnt charge at her, she couldnt have possibly slashed Kenny with the knife.
Exactly. Facts or reason. Kenny had some facts-Jane is unharmed, AJ dead- and reasoned that she had to have left AJ behind or did not try to save him.
Kenny didnt know anything what happened. He simply assumed and there was no rationality in that.
He was driving then north because of Wellington, because it was a good chance. But that´s irrelevant here. The point is that Jane wants to leave Kenny to die.
If you truly think Wellington was a good choice, there is no point trying to reason with you. Even if they drove to Wellington, Jane would have been forced to walk back, making the trip completely pointless for her (not that it matters, since we didnt know this at that moment)
No. She tried to talk Clem to leave Kenny behind in the car. She saw that was not working, so she planned to kill Kenny- leave AJ in the car, say it was an accident and that he is dead- so that Kenny could try to kill her, and she could kill him in retaliation and/or having Kenny´s reaction make Clem think she is better of without Kenny.
I'd like to point out that this is another bad scene by the writers. Clementine can side up with Jane but all that becomes completely irrelevant in that scene.
And? I very much doubt he could have taken the gun for Clem, but even if that was a possibility, she is faster that Kenny and it could have taken him a few seconds, at least, to stand up. She probably could have reached the car already, so she could only have to open the door, showing that AJ is alive and well. Then, there could be no reason to continue the figth.
I think we can both agree that this was really bad scene from the writers again. Kenny didnt have to die here. Clementine could have just pulled her gun on both of them after Jane slashed Kenny and he went outside but nah...
Jane: I knew you would.
She knew it perfectly. She planned on it.
Yeah i stated that already, but she clearly thought she could win Kenny on fight (and realistically she should have), thus the reason she told Clem to not intervene. More shit to the writers.
To you, maybe. To me, her intentions to leave him behind in a snowstorm is the same as showing the will to kill him.
Well they survived just fine for 9 days anyway in that weather, if you choose to go to Wellington. So no, its not killing someone if you leave them, you just reduce their chances of survival dramatically.
There is no reason to make up supernatural creatures either, but people still do it.
This is a different situation. We are talking a… morebout making up a Woodbury or Terminus, not supernatural creatures. Why do it? What reason is there? What benefits? What could make a person to suddenly make out something like that, spread it around and everything?
He looks at Clem and thinks for few seconds before deciding to ignore her and starts to complain about the house instead.
Deciding is too strong of a word. He is already too enraged with Arvo. He is not thinking clearly during that scene.
Considering that he would most likely be the one that puts me in deadly situations, no.
Why?
Who are you talking about?
I am saying that Lily killing Carley/Doug is much worse that Kenny hitting Arvo, the one who nearly got all of them killed.
Kenny goes in same category as Lilly, Ben and the baby. Someone who pu… [view original content]
Well, if you don´t have any idea, why did you think Wellington could be made out?
This happens too often imo, thus the reason i want to leave him.
Where? The only examples I can think, of this season, is the 'truck escape plan' and this scene.
All the situations i have stated before.
What situations? The Arvo situation at the unfished house?
Oh? I wasnt talking about Arvo. I was talking about every possible situation where Kenny puts others in danger
I assume you mean the truck thing.
I have have already given my reasons for that.
gets them killed.
What?
Because he has gone through so much? His judgement is often clouded and all that.
You said that Kenny puts others in danger just for existing. Please, explain that.
Saying that Mike should have it after Kenny wants Clementine to have it is not refusal?
She doesn´t say should. She says 'Why not Mike' or 'Why don´t you have it, Kenny?"
That sure didnt change Janes mind, then why should it change Clementines?
Why not?
You still dont get it... She calmed down once and Kenny attacked her... Why would she be stupid enough to do it again?
She did not even need to calm down to run to car, and show that AJ is alive.
If Kenny didnt charge at her, she couldnt have possibly slashed Kenny with the knife.
Ah, ah, ah good one.
Oh, wait, you are serious?
Kenny didnt know anything what happened. He simply assumed and there was no rationality in that.
He knew that Jane was unharmed, that AJ was dead and reached a reasonable conclusion based on those two facts. That´s being rational.
If you truly think Wellington was a good choice, there is no point trying to reason with you.
First of all, I said chance, not choice. Second, that is supposed to be what I think Kenny is thinking.
I'd like to point out that this is another bad scene by the writers. Clementine can side up with Jane but all that becomes completely irrelevant in that scene.
sign
Why could she want to abandon Kenny, regardless of what she believes about him? Clem is not you, zykelator. She is just a little girl.
I think we can both agree that this was really bad scene from the writers again. Kenny didnt have to die here. Clementine could have just pulled her gun on both of them after Jane slashed Kenny and he went outside but nah...
I am not sure they could have stopped, even if she did that.
But anyways, you are not addresing what I said.
I said:
And? I very much doubt he could have taken the gun for Clem, but even if that was a possibility, she is faster that Kenny and it could have taken him a few seconds, at least, to stand up. She probably could have reached the car already, so she could only have to open the door, showing that AJ is alive and well. Then, there could be no reason to continue the figth.
Yeah i stated that already, but she clearly thought she could win Kenny on fight (and realistically she should have), thus the reason she told Clem to not intervene. More shit to the writers.
Well, duh. Kenny had only one eye, and no weapon. Of course she thougth she could win.
But anyway, this doesn´t even matter, since you are ignoring what I said and why I said what I said.
I said:
And what do you think Jane, as rational as she is, thougth it could happen after Kenny thinks she killed AJ? That Kenny is going to say 'Sure, you fucking babykiller, just leave me behind and take the one person I care about for me. Is not like I will mind or anything'?
You said:
Well clearly her plan was stupid? She should have known how crazy Kenny can get, after what happened to Carver.
And then I said:
Jane: I knew you would. She knew it perfectly. She planned on it.
That was about that Jane intended to kill Kenny for the very beggining, not about if the figth was realisctic or not.
Please, stay on topic.
So no, its not killing someone if you leave them, you just reduce their chances of survival dramatically.
Said chances of survival, especially in walker infested place in a snowstorm, withouth supplies, maybe as well be zero. And Jane knew. She wanted to leave Kenny behind even thougth she knew it was as good as killing him. So she wanted to kill Kenny for the start.
This is a different situation. We are talking about making up a Woodbury or Terminus, not supernatural creatures. Why do it? What reason is … morethere? What benefits? What could make a person to suddenly make out something like that, spread it around and everything?
Yeah, thats the question. I have no idea.
He is not thinking clearly during that scene.
This happens too often imo, thus the reason i want to leave him.
Why?
All the situations i have stated before.
I am saying that Lily killing Carley/Doug is much worse that Kenny hitting Arvo, the one who nearly got all of them killed.
Oh? I wasnt talking about Arvo. I was talking about every possible situation where Kenny puts others in danger/gets them killed.
Again, why?
Because he has gone through so much? His judgement is often clouded and all that.
We have already talked about this before. You know what I mean. Before Troy ev… [view original content]
You know, i am trying to avoid all this " Kenny vs Jane " threads as much as possible. But no matter where i go, i always see you posting some non relevant and illogical Posts and at this point i can not ignore this any longer.
Kenny was far away from being a saint, he was in fact a very flawed man. But it is a obvious fact that Kenny deeply cared about Clementine and would do anything to protect her. This is proven in many scenarios throughout the entire game. He also made alot of mistakes and i don't blame you for not liking him.
That being said, he had every right to believe that Jane either killed AJ, or left him behind to die so she can save her own life. I am a father in real life and if i would be Kenny in this situation, i would do far worse things to Jane, then Kenny did. Does this make me a bad person? No, obviously not. Those this make Jane a bad person? Yes, it obviously does. She put the life of a innocent child in serious danger, just to prove a point.
I don't want to start another pointless discussion with you, so i won't respond to your respond. I just hope that this Post makes you realize that there are certain things that you simply can not deny and you are wrong about.
Well from my point of view, he caused more harm than good by getting that baby out. After that there was a whole new set of problems. You should check my opinion about babies in za before we continue this conversation.
Comments
I know of rumors form. I also know that in the ZA is not the same thing by any means, and that there is no reason for Wellington to be just a history.
Yes. I wrote that before watching the vid and did not change it when I quoted it. In any case, the point still stands.
Clem.
Duh.
Why could you think that?
Michelle
Even Molly was telling rumors about Crawford, and she had no idea that their community was destroyed long time ago. There is no reason to put your life at risk for a rumor.
Duh.
Well he surely shows this bad way then. Putting her in danger in the truck and later with the walkie talkie, not helping her when walkers attack her at Howe's, blaming her for Sarita's fate, leaving her alone in the herd, blaming more about Sarita, ignoring her so he could beat Arvo, ignoring her opinion is she wants to go south, ignoring her when she tries to calm him down, killing her friend... Im sure there is even more.
It just felt like he cared more about AJ. Just my opinion.
Let us start the Jane v Kenny again !
Nah, that shit is getting old.
She was telling what she knew, not rumors.
Kenny: If we let ourselves be trapped like dogs, we are dead.
Or something like that, i don´t remember the exact line.
We already talked about this.
First of all, Kenny had good reasons. Trusting Clem more that Mike, and that Clem was the best option for sneaking around. Troy as just barged into the room, and there was no time to discuss anything. Kenny took a chance, and put the walkie in Clem´s pockets quickly, so that Troy could not take notice. Besides, all of this is meaningless, since Clem never disagrees to take the walkie. She accepts the danger.Besides, I personally don´t believe Clem was ever in any danger, considering the respect Carver shows for her, but that´s irrelevant here.
dafuq? I am going to assume you mean the moment in which you find Kenny restraining Mike agaist the wallk. In that situation, he knew Clem could hadled it, he was pretty busy himself with walkers and went Clem was cornered Troy entered and went to Clem before Kenny could do anything.
If you cut her arm off, then Kenny has a pretty good reason to blame Clementine. And even then, he apologizes to her in No Going Back.
If you don´t, he is irrational with grief and he apologizes later.
What? No, no, no. He got carried away, once, out of anger. Nothing more. Don´t make it something that it is not.
Ah, ah, ah, good one.
Oh, wait, you are serious.
In some scenarios Mike drags Kenny away. That he did not look back doesn´t mean he was deliberatibily leavin her. He obviously expected her to follow, and she did, but she stumbled agaist the herd of walkers and got lost.
Kenny: You don´t know how much it hurts to hear you say that.
I don´t think he is ignoring it, far for it.
When, exactly?
By friend, I suppose you mean Jane.
That´s determinant.
Besides, Jane could have stopped the figth and any moment and she did not do it, so its not all Kenny´s fault. Jane wanted to kill Kenny as much as Kenny wanted to kill Jane.
Okay. I don´t think so, but okay.
As far as they knew, it was a rumor and even she didnt know the current state of Crawford, just like everyone who rumored about Wellington didnt know if it exists or if its still there.
Or something like that, i don´t remember the exact line.
The plan was retarded... Even you have to admit that. At that moment, they had better chances staying alive by just sitting nicely there, rather than trying to beat armed guards.
Well she couldnt handle the walkers. Every time i played it, Troy saved Clementine. Without Troy, Clementine would most likely be dead.
If you don´t, he is irrational with grief and he apologizes later.
She did the only thing she knew would possibly save Sarita. Cant blame Clementine for that.
But he proved that is might ignore Clementines safety if he is angry, just like in the walker herd.
Yeah, what i said earlier. Blinded by his anger. "this is on your head" or something.
I don´t think he is ignoring it, far for it.
You left the important part out. "tomorrow, you'll see how wrong you are" , implying that he will go north anyway and Clem is following.
In the car and after he made up his mind that Jane has killed AJ.
That´s determinant.
I suppose so, Jane, just like Kenny wants to be your friend no matter your interactions.
Never said it was completely on Kenny. They both got carried away but what i care about the fight is what Kenny thought happened and how he acted upon that assumption. Jane defended herself until the fight escalated more and she was forced to pull out her knife again.
I don't really consider Nate an Antagonist. "He wasn't a bad guy, a lot of folks might not have always agreed. Maybe even me."
Nate was my friend.
He is what passes for a friend now.
And? I am just saying that what Molly said were facts.
Yes.
...
He was pretty busy himself with walkers and went Clem was cornered Troy entered and went to Clem before Kenny could do anything.
Can´t blame Clem for killing Sarita?
Okay.
Good to know.
He could not have do anything anyways. He had nothing to star at fire, only Jane did. Besides, it was after Clem and AJ nearly got killed. He hated Arvo for that.
Nope. He expected Clem to follow him, but she got lost.
We have already talked about this, too. If Clementine did not want to look for Wellington, he could not force her. He would not even bring himself to leave her. So, if she refused, Kenny could have ended up doing whatever Clem wanted to do. One line said out of sadness doesn´t mean anything.
I am going to tell you a secret: Jan also doesn´t calm down, not matter what Clem tells her.
What did you expect?
You let out the part about faking a baby´s death and that Jane intended to kill Kenny for the start.
Carver - Started with good intentions in keeping people safe but crossed the line and became possessive and maniacal shown in how he relentlessly follows the Cabin Group, tortures and kills Alvin, tortures Carlos, beats Kenny, kills Reggie. 10/10 bad dude, kill on the spot.
Larry - The guy was a real jerk, but really was just protecting his daughter in his own asshole way. He also showed concern for Clementine at the end of Episode 1. So he's not that bad. 5/10 not that bad, just cranky.
Stranger - He leaves his car wide open and doesn't expect someone to steal his stuff? Then brainwashes Clem into coming to him? No. 7/10 would kill because he steals someone elses little girl and is obviously off his rocker.
Nate - "What do ya think Russ? Should we kill these folks and take all their stuff?" **psychotic look of glee* The only bad guy that makes me feel creeped and makes me laugh at the same time. Still, he was a nut. 8/10 would kill.
Arvo - I know, he shot Clem! But he's just a kid as well. He's Ben's age. He never had a chance to become a developed character. 3/10, I probably wouldn't kill him.
On another note, screw that chick that shot BrOmid!
And im just saying Kenny and Lee couldnt have possibly known if that was true or not.
Okay.
Rhere was only 2 bad options. Cutting the arm was less bad in theory.
Kenny had jacket on, which he could have given to Clementine and ever head such thing as body heat? Even if Clementine asks for help, he just ignores you after thinking for a second and starts complaining about the house and starts to beat Arvo. He just cant control his rage and imo, this makes him too dangerous to be around.
It didnt seem like it when he angrily said that its Clems fault.
So i guess we can ignore other dialogues also, if people were emotional while they said something?
This is about Kenny. And of course Jane down calm down in the fight, since Kenny tried to punch her before she even did or said anything, charged at her when she put her knife away and charged again while she was on the ground.
Irrational and stubborn behaviour like usual.
And where is your proof that Jane actually planned to kill Kenny right from the start? She surely knew it was a possibility that Kenny would try to kill her, but Kenny is the one who first talks about killing Jane in the fight.
Or at least take half of the stuff and left on foot. That's somewhat fair for both.
Exactly. They could have AT LEAST left something.
The St. John's, I mean how can you forget them, they ATE people!
Also it's implied that they may also have been rapists, so yeah the St. John's are the worst!
Arvo
Well, if you fail the QTE, at Molly ends up pointing Lee´s gun to his head and his about to kill him, and stops just because a child calls out Lee´s name, saying that they are not for Crawford, I don´t think there is much reason to not believe her. If you do win the QTE, then that´s another matter.
But this is irrelevant, since the cases are pretty diferrent. Molly and Vernon´s group were the only people talking about Crawford, but Wellington was know by Christa, Clem, Carver and we can assume that Howe´s Hardware know its too, Matthew and the rest of the Moonstra Loodge group.
Yes. I just said he could not have started a fire.
Kenny, just in season 2:
-The Cabin Group came and destroyed his life.
-Walter is dead, Mathew his dead.
-He is brutally beated by Carver, loses a eye.
-Sarita gets bitten, and dies.
-He has to survive with the people that cause the entery situation to happen.
-Everybody talks about Kenny and how bad is state of mind is instead of helping him, just after Sarita´s death and the herd or when Sarita is dying.
-Clem and AJ nearly get killed.
-Luke dies.
I think this gives him enougth reason to get carried away with rage and forget Clem, once and only once...
Does that mean that he could leave Clem to die at the herd? She simply got lost, and nothing else.
Is not just that. You are ignoring his entery character. He never actually forces her about anything, and you are blowing that one line out of proportion.
And? You are saying Kenny doesn´t care about Clem just because he doesn´t calm down in a figth, but its a fact that Jane also doesn´t calm down. What does that mean, by your own logic?
So its rigth for Jane not to calm down because Jane is Jane, and is also rigth for you to ignore that is not that she doesn´t calm down but that she never intended to calm down in the first place because she wanted to kill Kenny?
Okay.
Jane: He is...
She saids things much before Kenny trows the first puch, intantead of, you know, actually explaining.
Shee wanted to give him an opening so the fight could happen.
Jane (as she sheaths the knife): Don´t you come near me, you son of a bitch.
I don´t know about you, but I certainly could not be stupid enough to taunt and insult my opponent if I wanted to stop a fight. So is clear that she wanted it to happen.
Lol, what? Jane could have standed up instead of escalating the figth by slashing Kenny, especially because Kenny was not even back on his feet when Jane goes for the knife.
I think it was a rational response, honestly. Jane said that AJ is dead, and she is unharmed, so there is only one logical conclusion. Jane killed AJ. She left him behind because, in a snowstorm chased by walkers, the baby was just a liability.
You know, apart that Jane wants to leave with the car, leaving Kenny in a snowstorm, with only a gun and withouth any supplies? Besides, where is your proof that Jane did not intend to kill Kenny, zykelator? What other explanation is there? She had too many chances to stop the figth, and she did not take any of them. She wanted to kill Kenny.
Possibility? She sure as hell knew it.
And Jane is the first one to go for the kill.
You know, the whole 'slashing his stomatch and nearly spilling his guts out' part.
I'd say Jane is more of an antagonist than Kenny.
Why Vernon? He actually did something good for the group, he helped Omid and also stole the boat, and we all knew that boat would probably bring problems.
Well, I am not even going to comment on what you said about the boat, because is just... But well, next time, please brother to read everything before responding, okay?
I said:
No, they had heard about it, they didnt know if it was real.
He could have still helped be decided not to.
Yeah, i know he has gone through a lot, but i wouldnt want to be around person like that. I liked Lilly also, but she was just too great threat to me or my friends, even if her state of mind was justified. Thats why i left her also.
Say what you want. It doesnt change anything.
Well actually he does. Forces you to take the radio, forces you to save Alvin because he still wants to keep killing back in the lodge, After you get shot, he starts driving to north, even if you said no, and he has no intentions of driving any other direction (forces you to go north), forces you to shoot him in order to save Jane (dont whine about this).
Kenny is the one who start punching before asking, even if you ask him to stop.
No, Kenny attacks her when she calms down, why should she try to calm down after that and just give Kenny another chance to attack her?
Oh please... Dont feed that Belan bs to me.
Jane was on the ground because Kenny/Clem pushed her to the ground and before she has time to stand up, Kenny is charging at her. If she didnt use the knife, Kenny could have easily pinned her to the floor and punch/choke her to death (another chance for Clem to intervene with gun). Kenny was on his feet and rushing towards Jane, check the scene again.
How is it rational response, if he didnt even know what happened?
Yeah, because leaving someone behind is the same as killing them...
Well first of all she said that she was just trying to talk Clem to leave Kenny, after she saw what he is capable to do (whats the points of trying to make Clem leave a corpse behind?). She put her knife away after she saw that Kenny was calming down.
She didnt plan to kill Kenny, just show how crazy he is. She did know that Kenny might try to kill her, thus the dialogue "i knew you would" when Kenny is trying to kill her.
She thought she could take Kenny on her own and decide when the fight ends, but the writers decided to be idiots and gave Kenny godlike powers again. Slash wound on stomach, eye being gouged and still being able to win Jane in fight, who was still at good shape.
After Kenny yelled "you are dead", and she was on the floor, unable to do anything to Kenny who was rushing at her. Knife was the only option to keep him away.
Well it depends on your pov. For some Kenny is antagonist and to others Jane.
Really, I'd say neither of them are, but if I had to say one was an antagonist over the other, I'd say Jane, she tried to manipulate Kenny into going over the edge, so it was more purposeful, whereas Kenny just... snapped.
But really, I don't see either of them as antagonists, or Arvo. Just Carver really. Concerning this Season.
Like i already said, its a matter of opinion.
I'd waste Carver in a second. The others at least had reasons, even if they were flimsy in some cases, for their actions. Carver just enjoyed hurting people and looked for any excuse to do it. Plus, he would be the biggest threat out of all those characters. He had an entire community at his beck and call. At least if he dies, there would eb a chance for someone slightly less on the insane side of the spectrum to take over.
That´s why I said ''know'', not ''know it was real''. But you are still ignoring than thats a lot of people to hear about Wellington, in the ZA, and that there is no reason to make up a commonunity.
"Decided" is too strong of a word.
You could not what to be around the person who could rather die that let anything happen to you?
...
Okay.
You know, killing Carley/Doug is much worse that hitting the one that nearly got them all killed, but maybe that´s just my opinion.
Ironic, coming from you.
I believe that we have already talked about this, but it was not forced. Clem doesn´t refuse to take the radio.
Forces? Shooting was the only sane decision. If he gave out, for all he knew, Carver could have killed him.
You can said no before, but you don´t get a dialogue option to disaggre with driving north. You just get options to try at make them stop figthing.
I don´t think Clem was forced to kill him-especially because she could have shoot in the knee or something, instead of the chest.
She doesn´t calm down. And she sure as hell doesn´t want Kenny to calm down either.
Jane (as she sheaths the knife): Don´t you come near me, you son of a bitch.
I don´t know about you, but I certainly could not be stupid enough to taunt and insult my opponent if I wanted to stop a fight. So is clear that she wanted it to happen.
She had plety of time to stand up, while Kenny is standing up. Instead of, you know, going for the knife and nearly spilling his guts.
You mean, besides everything I said?
Leaving him behind, withouth supplies, in a snow storm, is the same as killing him.
Are you serious? If that was all, she could have stopped the figth. And she didn´t.
For example, outside, when Jane is trying to poke his eyes out, and his whriting on the ground, screaming him pain. She could have run to the car where AJ was instead of continuing.
The point is that she wants to kill Kenny?
Just a thougth.
And, then:
Jane (as she sheaths the knife): Don´t you come near me, you son of a bitch.
I don´t know about you, but I certainly could not be stupid enough to taunt and insult my opponent if I wanted to stop a fight. So is clear that she wanted it to happen.
And what do you think Jane, as rational as she is, thougth it could happen after Kenny thinks she killed AJ? That Kenny is going to say 'Sure, you fucking babykiller, just leave me behind and take the one person I care about for me. Is not like I will mind or anything'?
She had plety of chances to stop the figth.
I could argue agaist this, but is pointless, because is not even relevant to the issue. What matters here is Jane´s intentions. Which are to kill Kenny.
He only does that outside.
Kenny was not back on his feet when she went for the knife. Watch the scene again. Yes, he rushes towards her when she is on the group, but she could have stood up instead of escalating the figth.
Carver.
You misspelled Kenny. :P
Arvo, Carver, Stranger, Larry, Nate. In order from first to kill to last to kill.
There is no reason to make up supernatural creatures either, but people still do it.
He looks at Clem and thinks for few seconds before deciding to ignore her and starts to complain about the house instead.
Considering that he would most likely be the one that puts me in deadly situations, no.
Who are you talking about? Kenny goes in same category as Lilly, Ben and the baby. Someone who puts others at risk simply by being around.
That is just stupid, even from you. Do you expect that Clementine says "dont give me the radio", while Troy is watching Kenny and Clementine?
You can make it clear to Kenny that you do NOT want to go north, but he starts driving there anyway after you are shot and pass out. What a great friend.
Forced me to shoot anyway. Doesnt matter where you shoot, its never good.
Jane (as she sheaths the knife): Don´t you come near me, you son of a bitch.
She puts her knife away and Kenny attacks her. After that there is really no point to calm down and give him another chance to attack.
And do you think Jane is stupid enough to try have a fair fight with someone? This would be completely against her character.
Kenny got up faster because Jane is pushed to the ground and he starts rushing at her... She had no other way to defend herself.
"Rationality is the quality or state of being reasonable, based on facts or reason." Would you like to rephrase your sentence?
And? It was another Lilly situation. He was driving them north, where they would most likely just freeze to death, simply because of his personal beliefs.
For example, outside, when Jane is trying to poke his eyes out, and his whriting on the ground, screaming him pain. She could have run to the car where AJ was instead of continuing.
After they are both down? Kenny would have just picked the knife and went after her. Or worse, take the gun from Clem.
Just a thougth.
So you're saying her plan was to kill Kenny and then talk Clementine to leave Kenny behind? I guess that makes sense.
Well clearly her plan was stupid? She should have known how crazy Kenny can get, after what happened to Carver.
Intentions, which you have failed to prove. Im starting to think i should blame writers more and more as this debate moves on. They give plenty of times to make Clementine seem like she doesnt believe Kenny is a good guy anymore and she doesnt want to follow him, but then she suddenly cant leave him... Killing Kenny would have been avoided if Clementine wasnt such an idiot.
No... I've checked this when i was debating with Belan about the fight. he makes total of 4 threats before fight ends, 1 of them being determinant.
Sigh... Do i really have to do this again?
2:35
If you are not completely blind, you can clearly see that Kenny rushes at Jane and she is forced to use her knife.
I suppose so, but I really can't see any way that either of them could truly be considered an antagonist.
No one deserves to die... they're all just trying to survive.
well i can.
I vote to kill the dog again. He was such a jerk.
This is a different situation. We are talking about making up a Woodbury or Terminus, not supernatural creatures. Why do it? What reason is there? What benefits? What could make a person to suddenly make out something like that, spread it around and everything?
Deciding is too strong of a word. He is already too enraged with Arvo. He is not thinking clearly during that scene.
Why?
I am saying that Lily killing Carley/Doug is much worse that Kenny hitting Arvo, the one who nearly got all of them killed.
Again, why?
We have already talked about this before. You know what I mean. Before Troy even comes into the room, Clementine doesn´t refuse. She never said: no, I don´t want to the radio.
I am sure that he could have acted differently if Mike and Bonnie did not betray the group, leaving them desperate and without supplies but they did. That Clementine refused to go north while they still had supplies and a big group doesn´t mean that Clementine will refuse when they don´t have supplies, and there is only the three of them and a baby.
Okay.
Jane shoot Troy´s dick off. Just saying.
She wanted him to do it.
She could have calmed down, stop trying to kill Kenny and run to the car.
A fair fight? Nah, you are misunderstanding me. She wanted to fight him, and kill him and sheathed the knife to give Kenny an opening so that the fight could happen. It doesn´t mean she could not take out the knife again.
Stop the video at 2:36. She has the knife in her hand already, and Kenny has not yet stood up.
Exactly. Facts or reason. Kenny had some facts-Jane is unharmed, AJ dead- and reasoned that she had to have left AJ behind or did not try to save him.
He was driving then north because of Wellington, because it was a good chance. But that´s irrelevant here. The point is that Jane wants to leave Kenny to die.
No. She tried to talk Clem to leave Kenny behind in the car. She saw that was not working, so she planned to kill Kenny- leave AJ in the car, say it was an accident and that he is dead- so that Kenny could try to kill her, and she could kill him in retaliation and/or having Kenny´s reaction make Clem think she is better of without Kenny.
And? I very much doubt he could have taken the gun for Clem, but even if that was a possibility, she is faster that Kenny and it could have taken him a few seconds, at least, to stand up. She probably could have reached the car already, so she could only have to open the door, showing that AJ is alive and well. Then, there could be no reason to continue the figth.
Jane: I knew you would.
She knew it perfectly. She planned on it.
To you, maybe. To me, her intentions to leave him behind in a snowstorm is the same as showing the will to kill him. She has many chance to stop the fight, but she allowed the figth to continue.
Why could she want to abandon Kenny, regardless of what she believes about him? Clem is not you, zykelator. She is just a little girl.
Yeah, sorry, forgot about that
In any case, none of these threats are determinant.
Yes, Kenny rushes at Jane. We all know that. But::
Quoting Aunt May: "I don't think we are to decide who deserves to live or die."
Yeah, thats the question. I have no idea.
This happens too often imo, thus the reason i want to leave him.
All the situations i have stated before.
Oh? I wasnt talking about Arvo. I was talking about every possible situation where Kenny puts others in danger/gets them killed.
Because he has gone through so much? His judgement is often clouded and all that.
Saying that Mike should have it after Kenny wants Clementine to have it is not refusal?
That sure didnt change Janes mind, then why should it change Clementines?
You still dont get it... She calmed down once and Kenny attacked her... Why would she be stupid enough to do it again?
Yes, because she was in bad position, laying on ground while Kenny got up faster. If Kenny didnt charge at her, she couldnt have possibly slashed Kenny with the knife.
Kenny didnt know anything what happened. He simply assumed and there was no rationality in that.
If you truly think Wellington was a good choice, there is no point trying to reason with you. Even if they drove to Wellington, Jane would have been forced to walk back, making the trip completely pointless for her (not that it matters, since we didnt know this at that moment)
I'd like to point out that this is another bad scene by the writers. Clementine can side up with Jane but all that becomes completely irrelevant in that scene.
I think we can both agree that this was really bad scene from the writers again. Kenny didnt have to die here. Clementine could have just pulled her gun on both of them after Jane slashed Kenny and he went outside but nah...
She knew it perfectly. She planned on it.
Yeah i stated that already, but she clearly thought she could win Kenny on fight (and realistically she should have), thus the reason she told Clem to not intervene. More shit to the writers.
Well they survived just fine for 9 days anyway in that weather, if you choose to go to Wellington. So no, its not killing someone if you leave them, you just reduce their chances of survival dramatically.
Well, if you don´t have any idea, why did you think Wellington could be made out?
Where? The only examples I can think, of this season, is the 'truck escape plan' and this scene.
What situations? The Arvo situation at the unfished house?
I assume you mean the truck thing.
I have have already given my reasons for that.
What?
You said that Kenny puts others in danger just for existing. Please, explain that.
She doesn´t say should. She says 'Why not Mike' or 'Why don´t you have it, Kenny?"
Why not?
She did not even need to calm down to run to car, and show that AJ is alive.
Ah, ah, ah good one.
Oh, wait, you are serious?
He knew that Jane was unharmed, that AJ was dead and reached a reasonable conclusion based on those two facts. That´s being rational.
First of all, I said chance, not choice. Second, that is supposed to be what I think Kenny is thinking.
sign
Why could she want to abandon Kenny, regardless of what she believes about him? Clem is not you, zykelator. She is just a little girl.
I am not sure they could have stopped, even if she did that.
But anyways, you are not addresing what I said.
I said:
And? I very much doubt he could have taken the gun for Clem, but even if that was a possibility, she is faster that Kenny and it could have taken him a few seconds, at least, to stand up. She probably could have reached the car already, so she could only have to open the door, showing that AJ is alive and well. Then, there could be no reason to continue the figth.
Well, duh. Kenny had only one eye, and no weapon. Of course she thougth she could win.
But anyway, this doesn´t even matter, since you are ignoring what I said and why I said what I said.
I said:
You said:
And then I said:
That was about that Jane intended to kill Kenny for the very beggining, not about if the figth was realisctic or not.
Please, stay on topic.
Said chances of survival, especially in walker infested place in a snowstorm, withouth supplies, maybe as well be zero. And Jane knew. She wanted to leave Kenny behind even thougth she knew it was as good as killing him. So she wanted to kill Kenny for the start.
Did you even read it?
You know, i am trying to avoid all this " Kenny vs Jane " threads as much as possible. But no matter where i go, i always see you posting some non relevant and illogical Posts and at this point i can not ignore this any longer.
Kenny was far away from being a saint, he was in fact a very flawed man. But it is a obvious fact that Kenny deeply cared about Clementine and would do anything to protect her. This is proven in many scenarios throughout the entire game. He also made alot of mistakes and i don't blame you for not liking him.
That being said, he had every right to believe that Jane either killed AJ, or left him behind to die so she can save her own life. I am a father in real life and if i would be Kenny in this situation, i would do far worse things to Jane, then Kenny did. Does this make me a bad person? No, obviously not. Those this make Jane a bad person? Yes, it obviously does. She put the life of a innocent child in serious danger, just to prove a point.