I would not kill AJ if I knew he would become a monster like Carver. People should be held accountable for something they have done or attem… morepted to do not something he or she might someday do. If you start killing people because of what they might do you'll turn out to be just as bad as Carver if not worse.
well for starters he is a moron who got kens family killed, AND he would still be alive if he wasn't slipping the bandits supplies, therefore, bens fault.
EDIT: I formally retract my criticism. Apparently most people got something different from the topic post than I did. I missed the part where we all put our "Clem hats" on before we venture into the world of the hypothetical time-traveling thought experiment.
My first instinct is yes, but on further reflection I don't think I would. The world has become a much more barbaric place in TWD. If I'm honest with myself I have to imagine that some of the most successful enclaves of hope for the species are going to be administrated by people like Carver. I think that in the long term, humanity probably stands a better chance with these people running the show for a little bit. We've always been able to pull our way out of every previous dark age. I'd let him live, and hope that by doing so, I had given our next Aristotle or John Stuart Mill a fighting chance to stay alive long enough to influence some changes when the time becomes a little riper for them.
I would not kill AJ if I knew he would become a monster like Carver. People should be held accountable for something they have done or attem… morepted to do not something he or she might someday do. If you start killing people because of what they might do you'll turn out to be just as bad as Carver if not worse.
So what are you trying to say?
That if you don´t blame Ben for leaving Clementine to die because Ben his a child, you can´t blame Cl… moreementine, who is also a child, for indirectly causing something bad.
Clementine didn't just become this ultimate survivor she was trained by the mighty Christa.
And? That you are comparing the (lack) of skills of Ben, a tennager, with a child who was not even ten years old until the end of the season is just ridicolous.
No i meant Ben. He falls to his death trying to find Clementine.
...
facepalm
He can also fall to his death in Around Every Corner, before Clemetine goes missing. And Ben´s death in No Time Left is not fault but his own.
He did, must of missed this one.
Check the wikia.
http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Around_Every_Corner
It says:
During the scene when Lee and the group leave Chuck and escape the streets, if one listens closely, Chu… [view original content]
That if you don´t blame Ben for leaving Clementine to die because Ben his a child, you can´t blame Clementine, who is also a child, for indirectly causing something bad.
Whose blaming her, i am explaining that EVERYONE does bad things in the Apocalypse.
And? That you are comparing the (lack) of skills of Ben, a tennager, with a child who was not even ten years old until the end of the season is just ridicolous.
facepalm
He can also fall to his death in Around Every Corner, before Clemetine goes missing. And Ben´s death in No Time Left is not fault but his own.
Then Lee kills him, proving my point that Good people can do bad things.
What did you expect Ben to do? He was a coward.
So what? This is about intentions.
Intentions aren't going to be there to wipe away that tear, or to hold you when your sad. The person is still dead and you got to live with that.
So what are you trying to say?
That if you don´t blame Ben for leaving Clementine to die because Ben his a child, you can´t blame Cl… moreementine, who is also a child, for indirectly causing something bad.
Clementine didn't just become this ultimate survivor she was trained by the mighty Christa.
And? That you are comparing the (lack) of skills of Ben, a tennager, with a child who was not even ten years old until the end of the season is just ridicolous.
No i meant Ben. He falls to his death trying to find Clementine.
...
facepalm
He can also fall to his death in Around Every Corner, before Clemetine goes missing. And Ben´s death in No Time Left is not fault but his own.
He did, must of missed this one.
Check the wikia.
http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Around_Every_Corner
It says:
During the scene when Lee and the group leave Chuck and escape the streets, if one listens closely, Chu… [view original content]
well for starters he is a moron who got kens family killed, AND he would still be alive if he wasn't slipping the bandits supplies, therefore, bens fault.
well for starters he is a moron who got kens family killed, AND he would still be alive if he wasn't slipping the bandits supplies, therefore, bens fault.
well for starters he is a moron who got kens family killed, AND he would still be alive if he wasn't slipping the bandits supplies, therefore, bens fault.
Translation : IDK.
AJ isn't "adorable", "sweet" or "innocent". He's quite the opposite actually, and he does nothing but whine and draw walkers towards the group. Eh, if he was going to be like Carver in the future, I'd let the dude grow up and have a shot at redemption hopefully.
well for starters he is a moron who got kens family killed, AND he would still be alive if he wasn't slipping the bandits supplies, therefore, bens fault.
Translation : IDK.
lee and kenny didn't physically hurt kids. Even at kenny's lowest points like katjaas death, it looked like he would physically hurt her. But he never did. The worst kenny has done to clementine physically is accidentally hit her if you try to help arvo.
Meanwhile Carver has no dam problem hitting kids and seeing them get hurt. He has no problem shooting one either. He's a punk.
How is he any different from Kenny, Lee, Clementine, Arvo, pretty much anyone in the ZA at this point.
People do bad things, doesn't make him a bad guy.
AJ isn't "adorable", "sweet" or "innocent". He's quite the opposite actually, and he does nothing but whine and draw walkers towards the gro… moreup. Eh, if he was going to be like Carver in the future, I'd let the dude grow up and have a shot at redemption hopefully.
thats not the point if you get the evil ending (the one where clem turns away the strangers) then she could raise him to be a really bad person. or seeing all of this could mess him up like carl from the show. for that matter clem could die in front of him and it would scar him for life. its really easy to manipulate a child. especially an infant.
The time it takes for Alvin Jr. to grow up and have a personality like Carvers, the zombie apocalypse would probably be over or people manag… moreed to have adapted and live a proper lifestyle. Killing "weaker" people years later when the world got it's shit together would just end up being straight up murder and then you get Rick arresting your ass.
WERE TALKING ABOUT FUCKING THEORY'S!!!! NOT LOGIC, PLOT PROGRESS, OR THE ACTUAL STORY!!! SWEET MOTHER THERESA ON THE HOOD OF MERCEDES BENZ THIS AGUMENT IS FUCKING STUPID!!!!
Correct, however they have done other things . Lee killed a state senator, and Kenny killed Larry right in front of Lilly/Clementine. Clementine lied to Lee and the rest, and continued to talk to the stranger even after being warned not to, which resulted in his death.
All i 'm saying is , we really don't know Carver. All we seen him in is a short perspective. If your a DLC character I'm sure you have a different opinion of him I'm sure.
lee and kenny didn't physically hurt kids. Even at kenny's lowest points like katjaas death, it looked like he would physically hurt her. Bu… moret he never did. The worst kenny has done to clementine physically is accidentally hit her if you try to help arvo.
Meanwhile Carver has no dam problem hitting kids and seeing them get hurt. He has no problem shooting one either. He's a punk.
WERE TALKING ABOUT FUCKING THEORY'S!!!! NOT LOGIC, PLOT PROGRESS, OR THE ACTUAL STORY!!! SWEET MOTHER THERESA ON THE HOOD OF MERCEDES BENZ THIS AGUMENT IS FUCKING STUPID!!!!
That's all a what-if future scenario. Right now, a less than two week old baby is innocent. Who knows what he would turn out to be, or even what Clem would turn out to be, ten or twenty years into the apocalypse? Even Carl from the show is not all bad because his father started trying to bring him back from that dark place he was going to.
thats not the point if you get the evil ending (the one where clem turns away the strangers) then she could raise him to be a really bad per… moreson. or seeing all of this could mess him up like carl from the show. for that matter clem could die in front of him and it would scar him for life. its really easy to manipulate a child. especially an infant.
The only reason AJ would become like Carver is if Clementine raises him to be like Carver. At which point Clementine is like Carver and killing him makes no sense.
Whose blaming her, i am explaining that EVERYONE does bad things in the Apocalypse.
There is a difference between doing bad things, and bad things happening because you did something. You don´t seem to grasp that.
Also, you were blaming her.
You said that the death of Ben was her fault, and for a lot of characters.
I agree that she was responsible for Omid, Lee, Sarita (well, only if cutt off her arm), and Kenny or Jane, but no the rest.
Then Lee kills him, proving my point that Good people can do bad things.
Is a bad thing because it causes the death of a child, but I don´t think Lee hate Ben. The walkers were closing on him, and he made the self-serving decision. Nothing more.
What did you expect Ben to do? He was a coward.
Grab Clementine´s hand, and run.
Intentions aren't going to be there to wipe away that tear, or to hold you when your sad. The person is still dead and you got to live with that.
And? This about that Carver willingly and knowingly caused bad things, because he had bad intentions and that you can´t compare Carver to Kenny, Lee or Clementine. Hell, you can´t even compare Carver with Arvo.
That if you don´t blame Ben for leaving Clementine to die because Ben his a child, you can´t blame Clementine, who is also a child, for indi… morerectly causing something bad.
Whose blaming her, i am explaining that EVERYONE does bad things in the Apocalypse.
And? That you are comparing the (lack) of skills of Ben, a tennager, with a child who was not even ten years old until the end of the season is just ridicolous.
facepalm
He can also fall to his death in Around Every Corner, before Clemetine goes missing. And Ben´s death in No Time Left is not fault but his own.
Then Lee kills him, proving my point that Good people can do bad things.
What did you expect Ben to do? He was a coward.
So what? This is about intentions.
Intentions aren't going to be there to wipe away that tear, or to hold you when your sad. The person is still dead and you got to live with that.
AJ isn't "adorable", "sweet" or "innocent". He's quite the opposite actually, and he does nothing but whine and draw walkers towards the gro… moreup. Eh, if he was going to be like Carver in the future, I'd let the dude grow up and have a shot at redemption hopefully.
You said that the death of Ben was her fault, and for a lot of characters.
Ben died on the rescue mission to Save Clementine. He wouldn't of died if she didn't run away in the first place. You understand that right?
Is a bad thing because it causes the death of a child, but I don´t think Lee hate Ben. The walkers were closing on him, and he made the self-serving decision. Nothing more.
Do i really need to say anything here? Really?? Lee made a choice. He decided to either help Ben at that moment or not.
Grab Clementine´s hand, and run.
He is a stupid child. People react differently in dangerous situations.
And? This about that Carver willingly and knowingly caused bad things, because he had bad intentions and that you can´t compare Carver to Kenny, Lee or Clementine. Hell, you can´t even compare Carver with Arvo.
Your just blinded by the POV perspective you have been given. Everybody does bad things. Key word. Everybody, and no one is innocent any more.
Whose blaming her, i am explaining that EVERYONE does bad things in the Apocalypse.
There is a difference between doing bad things, … moreand bad things happening because you did something. You don´t seem to grasp that.
Also, you were blaming her.
You said that the death of Ben was her fault, and for a lot of characters.
I agree that she was responsible for Omid, Lee, Sarita (well, only if cutt off her arm), and Kenny or Jane, but no the rest.
Then Lee kills him, proving my point that Good people can do bad things.
Is a bad thing because it causes the death of a child, but I don´t think Lee hate Ben. The walkers were closing on him, and he made the self-serving decision. Nothing more.
What did you expect Ben to do? He was a coward.
Grab Clementine´s hand, and run.
Intentions aren't going to be there to wipe away that tear, or to hold you when your sad. The person is still dead and you got to live … [view original content]
Ben died on the rescue mission to Save Clementine. He wouldn't of died if she didn't run away in the first place. You understand that right?
He did not die on a rescue mission. He died because he escaped with the group for the walkers attacking the house, and he fell down.
Do i really need to say anything here? Really??
Yes. Compare it to Carver pushing Reggie off the roof because of few berries, to Lee simply thinking he could not save Ben and that trying could get both killed.
Was worse?
Lee made a choice. He decided to either help Ben at that moment or not.
Yes.
He is a stupid child. People react differently in dangerous situations.
And? If you don´t blame Ben for leaving Clem to die, because he is a stupid child, you sure as hell can´t blame Clem for going to the Stranger. You are just contradicting yourself.
Your just blinded by the POV perspective you have been given.
But what he are shown of Carver is just pure evil. And there is no real reason to think he had been any better before.
verybody does bad things. Key word. Everybody, and no one is innocent any more.
And?
Everybody-yes, everybody- is still better that William Carver.
You said that the death of Ben was her fault, and for a lot of characters.
Ben died on the rescue mission to Save Clementine. He wou… moreldn't of died if she didn't run away in the first place. You understand that right?
Is a bad thing because it causes the death of a child, but I don´t think Lee hate Ben. The walkers were closing on him, and he made the self-serving decision. Nothing more.
Do i really need to say anything here? Really?? Lee made a choice. He decided to either help Ben at that moment or not.
Grab Clementine´s hand, and run.
He is a stupid child. People react differently in dangerous situations.
And? This about that Carver willingly and knowingly caused bad things, because he had bad intentions and that you can´t compare Carver to Kenny, Lee or Clementine. Hell, you can´t even compare Carver with Arvo.
Your just blinded by the POV perspective you have been given. Everybody does bad things. Key word. Everybody, and no one is innocent any more.
He did not die on a rescue mission. He died because he escaped with the group for the walkers attacking the house, and he fell down.
They were going to look for Clementine. Lee Asks Ben for his help.
Yes. Compare it to Carver pushing Reggie off the roof because of few berries, to Lee simply thinking he could not save Ben and that trying could get both killed.
Was worse?
Murder is Murder. In the eyes of the lord.
And? If you don´t blame Ben for leaving Clem to die, because he is a stupid child, you sure as hell can´t blame Clem for going to the Stranger. You are just contradicting yourself.
Clementine was told by Lee/Christa not to talk to the Stranger. She didn't listen.
And there is no real reason to think he had been any better before.
Bonnie, Rebecca all mention how Carver is different. He had a friend named George , and apparently Alvin killed him.
Ben died on the rescue mission to Save Clementine. He wouldn't of died if she didn't run away in the first place. You understand that right?… more
He did not die on a rescue mission. He died because he escaped with the group for the walkers attacking the house, and he fell down.
Do i really need to say anything here? Really??
Yes. Compare it to Carver pushing Reggie off the roof because of few berries, to Lee simply thinking he could not save Ben and that trying could get both killed.
Was worse?
Lee made a choice. He decided to either help Ben at that moment or not.
Yes.
He is a stupid child. People react differently in dangerous situations.
And? If you don´t blame Ben for leaving Clem to die, because he is a stupid child, you sure as hell can´t blame Clem for going to the Stranger. You are just contradicting yourself.
Your just blinded by the POV perspective you have been given.
Bu… [view original content]
The baby likely wouldn't make it with me anyways, I would take care of it and protect it if I could but lets say I was in a situation like the Russian shootout and I was behind cover but AJ was out in the middle of it, I wouldn't run out there to save him because theres absolutely no reason to risk your life immensley just to save something that is such a huge burden. So as you can probably see, the baby would probably never stay alive too long with me.
They were going to look for Clementine. Lee Asks Ben for his help.
And? The point is that, if we have to use your logic, Ben did not die because he went for Clementine. Ben´s death was the fault of the walkers that attacked the house. If they did not attack, they could not have been forced into attic, and then to the neighbor’s house and he could not have been forced to jump into the rooftop and the balcony could not have broken.
So Ben´s death was all the walker´s fault.
What a plot twist!
Murder is Murder. In the eyes of the lord.
I don´t know why I even brothering to respond, if you are not even trying to be serious.
But well, there are differences. The why, and the intentions, for example. Something you can´t seem to grasp.
Clementine was told by Lee/Christa not to talk to the Stranger. She didn't listen.
Ben was told not to fuck things up. He didn´t listen.
Bonnie, Rebecca all mention how Carver is different.
Bonnie:... Because it turns the person you thougth you knew... was never there.
As for Rebecca, did Carver really change or the Cabin Group just realized how he really was, just like Bonnie does?
He had a friend named George , and apparently Alvin killed him.
So because of the killing of his friend he:
-Becomes mad.
-Rapes Rebbeca.
"Killing one to save many is part of survival."
Kills Reggie because the two kids did not pick up the berries.
-Brutally beats Kenny.
-Makes Carlos slap Sarah.
-Slaps Clementine.
-Tortures Carlos rigth in front of Sarah in the Moonstar Loodge.
-Kills Alvin/Tortures Alvin.
-Makes Rebbeca see Alvin like that.
No to mention that, you know, there is a big possibility that he raped Rebbeca well before George was killed.
He did not die on a rescue mission. He died because he escaped with the group for the walkers attacking the house, and he fell down.
… more They were going to look for Clementine. Lee Asks Ben for his help.
Yes. Compare it to Carver pushing Reggie off the roof because of few berries, to Lee simply thinking he could not save Ben and that trying could get both killed.
Was worse?
Murder is Murder. In the eyes of the lord.
And? If you don´t blame Ben for leaving Clem to die, because he is a stupid child, you sure as hell can´t blame Clem for going to the Stranger. You are just contradicting yourself.
Clementine was told by Lee/Christa not to talk to the Stranger. She didn't listen.
And there is no real reason to think he had been any better before.
Bonnie, Rebecca all mention how Carver is different. He had a friend named George , and apparently Alvin killed him.
Comments
Hmm. So what if you were sent back in time to when Hitler was a baby and given the opportunity to kill him? Would you do it?
well for starters he is a moron who got kens family killed, AND he would still be alive if he wasn't slipping the bandits supplies, therefore, bens fault.
EDIT: I formally retract my criticism. Apparently most people got something different from the topic post than I did. I missed the part where we all put our "Clem hats" on before we venture into the world of the hypothetical time-traveling thought experiment.
My first instinct is yes, but on further reflection I don't think I would. The world has become a much more barbaric place in TWD. If I'm honest with myself I have to imagine that some of the most successful enclaves of hope for the species are going to be administrated by people like Carver. I think that in the long term, humanity probably stands a better chance with these people running the show for a little bit. We've always been able to pull our way out of every previous dark age. I'd let him live, and hope that by doing so, I had given our next Aristotle or John Stuart Mill a fighting chance to stay alive long enough to influence some changes when the time becomes a little riper for them.
Please don't quote the wikii as proof. It hurts your case.
Whose blaming her, i am explaining that EVERYONE does bad things in the Apocalypse.
He can also fall to his death in Around Every Corner, before Clemetine goes missing. And Ben´s death in No Time Left is not fault but his own.
Then Lee kills him, proving my point that Good people can do bad things.
What did you expect Ben to do? He was a coward.
Intentions aren't going to be there to wipe away that tear, or to hold you when your sad. The person is still dead and you got to live with that.
Translation : IDK.
So again how does the events of the bandits whatever change the forces of physics that causes the balcony to collapse which caused Ben's Demise.
no translation: ben is to stupid to know what the word "help" means.
AJ isn't "adorable", "sweet" or "innocent". He's quite the opposite actually, and he does nothing but whine and draw walkers towards the group. Eh, if he was going to be like Carver in the future, I'd let the dude grow up and have a shot at redemption hopefully.
well he wouln'tve fallen off the balcony if they were still in the motor inn now would they mr. dumbass?
lee and kenny didn't physically hurt kids. Even at kenny's lowest points like katjaas death, it looked like he would physically hurt her. But he never did. The worst kenny has done to clementine physically is accidentally hit her if you try to help arvo.
Meanwhile Carver has no dam problem hitting kids and seeing them get hurt. He has no problem shooting one either. He's a punk.
Adorable and sweet is a matter of perception (both of which I think he completely is), but how can you say he's not innocent? He's a baby.
I would try everything i can to reverse that. Unless he did a mass murdering no i would not kill him.
thats not the point if you get the evil ending (the one where clem turns away the strangers) then she could raise him to be a really bad person. or seeing all of this could mess him up like carl from the show. for that matter clem could die in front of him and it would scar him for life. its really easy to manipulate a child. especially an infant.
fuck yea
Why would they stay @ the motor Inn. The whole plot was Clementine looking for her parents. BLAME BEN FOR PLOT PROGRESSION GRUMBLE GRUMPLECAKES
PLOT PROGRESSION
DO U UNDERSTAND
omg THEY LEFT BECAUSE THE BANDITS ATTACKED! THEY WERE NEVER LEAVING IN THE FIRST GODDAMN PLACE!!!!!1111one
well maybe kenny was. but thats beside the point!
WERE TALKING ABOUT FUCKING THEORY'S!!!! NOT LOGIC, PLOT PROGRESS, OR THE ACTUAL STORY!!! SWEET MOTHER THERESA ON THE HOOD OF MERCEDES BENZ THIS AGUMENT IS FUCKING STUPID!!!!
Correct, however they have done other things . Lee killed a state senator, and Kenny killed Larry right in front of Lilly/Clementine. Clementine lied to Lee and the rest, and continued to talk to the stranger even after being warned not to, which resulted in his death.
All i 'm saying is , we really don't know Carver. All we seen him in is a short perspective. If your a DLC character I'm sure you have a different opinion of him I'm sure.
how old are you?
15 just saying this argument is going nowhere fast we should just stop. Agreed?
That's all a what-if future scenario. Right now, a less than two week old baby is innocent. Who knows what he would turn out to be, or even what Clem would turn out to be, ten or twenty years into the apocalypse? Even Carl from the show is not all bad because his father started trying to bring him back from that dark place he was going to.
They're growing up in a world where grounding someone is the best thing you can do.
The only reason AJ would become like Carver is if Clementine raises him to be like Carver. At which point Clementine is like Carver and killing him makes no sense.
Nobody can edit the wikia now. Besides, I checked it myself on my game. Its true.
There is a difference between doing bad things, and bad things happening because you did something. You don´t seem to grasp that.
Also, you were blaming her.
You said that the death of Ben was her fault, and for a lot of characters.
I agree that she was responsible for Omid, Lee, Sarita (well, only if cutt off her arm), and Kenny or Jane, but no the rest.
Is a bad thing because it causes the death of a child, but I don´t think Lee hate Ben. The walkers were closing on him, and he made the self-serving decision. Nothing more.
Grab Clementine´s hand, and run.
And? This about that Carver willingly and knowingly caused bad things, because he had bad intentions and that you can´t compare Carver to Kenny, Lee or Clementine. Hell, you can´t even compare Carver with Arvo.
Credit to @Saltlck305
I´m glad you see it too.
Ben died on the rescue mission to Save Clementine. He wouldn't of died if she didn't run away in the first place. You understand that right?
Do i really need to say anything here? Really?? Lee made a choice. He decided to either help Ben at that moment or not.
He is a stupid child. People react differently in dangerous situations.
Your just blinded by the POV perspective you have been given. Everybody does bad things. Key word. Everybody, and no one is innocent any more.
He did not die on a rescue mission. He died because he escaped with the group for the walkers attacking the house, and he fell down.
Yes. Compare it to Carver pushing Reggie off the roof because of few berries, to Lee simply thinking he could not save Ben and that trying could get both killed.
Was worse?
Yes.
And? If you don´t blame Ben for leaving Clem to die, because he is a stupid child, you sure as hell can´t blame Clem for going to the Stranger. You are just contradicting yourself.
But what he are shown of Carver is just pure evil. And there is no real reason to think he had been any better before.
And?
Everybody-yes, everybody- is still better that William Carver.
They were going to look for Clementine. Lee Asks Ben for his help.
Was worse?
Murder is Murder. In the eyes of the lord.
Clementine was told by Lee/Christa not to talk to the Stranger. She didn't listen.
Bonnie, Rebecca all mention how Carver is different. He had a friend named George , and apparently Alvin killed him.
The baby likely wouldn't make it with me anyways, I would take care of it and protect it if I could but lets say I was in a situation like the Russian shootout and I was behind cover but AJ was out in the middle of it, I wouldn't run out there to save him because theres absolutely no reason to risk your life immensley just to save something that is such a huge burden. So as you can probably see, the baby would probably never stay alive too long with me.
They did that scenario in like 8 different books and movies, and in each one Stalin takes his place.
And? The point is that, if we have to use your logic, Ben did not die because he went for Clementine. Ben´s death was the fault of the walkers that attacked the house. If they did not attack, they could not have been forced into attic, and then to the neighbor’s house and he could not have been forced to jump into the rooftop and the balcony could not have broken.
So Ben´s death was all the walker´s fault.
What a plot twist!
I don´t know why I even brothering to respond, if you are not even trying to be serious.
But well, there are differences. The why, and the intentions, for example. Something you can´t seem to grasp.
Ben was told not to fuck things up. He didn´t listen.
Bonnie:... Because it turns the person you thougth you knew... was never there.
As for Rebecca, did Carver really change or the Cabin Group just realized how he really was, just like Bonnie does?
So because of the killing of his friend he:
-Becomes mad.
-Rapes Rebbeca.
"Killing one to save many is part of survival."
Kills Reggie because the two kids did not pick up the berries.
-Brutally beats Kenny.
-Makes Carlos slap Sarah.
-Slaps Clementine.
-Tortures Carlos rigth in front of Sarah in the Moonstar Loodge.
-Kills Alvin/Tortures Alvin.
-Makes Rebbeca see Alvin like that.
No to mention that, you know, there is a big possibility that he raped Rebbeca well before George was killed.