I disagree they were ill, pretty much dead. I dont think she liked doing it but it had to be done to stop it spreading. The way she handled lizzie showed she still cared
That's how I see it as well. Carol was just so clinical/emotionally detached in her actions, like she didn't even care that she killed two d… moreefenseless, sick people, and then proceeded to drag them out and burn them. She didn't seem to care about the act, only that she was caught by Rick. I was disgusted by her actions, which is why I don't care what happens to her. She has no morals, I think that kind of person is a danger to have in the group.
Almost everyone has a soft spot.
And almost every parent loves their children.
But that doesn't make them a good or ethical person.
For example, the Governor; pleaded for his zombified daughter, when Michonne had her blade to her head.
And yet look at what kind of man he was.
Just because he loved his daughter, didn't mean he was a good man.
I disagree they were ill, pretty much dead. I dont think she liked doing it but it had to be done to stop it spreading. The way she handled lizzie showed she still cared
And about Carol, she proved how callous she had become, when that young couple died.
It was when her and Rick were on that supply run together, which would be there last.
SheShe showed no remorse when they found that young girl being eaten by walkers.
And when that boy went missing, she just automatically assumed he was dead, and was willing to leave him behind.
Even when Rick said he could still be alive, she basically said: "Who cares?! It's him or us."
Her attitude, was no different than Shane's.
For that attitude, I would say that banishing her was indeed the right call to make.
That's how I see it as well. Carol was just so clinical/emotionally detached in her actions, like she didn't even care that she killed two d… moreefenseless, sick people, and then proceeded to drag them out and burn them. She didn't seem to care about the act, only that she was caught by Rick. I was disgusted by her actions, which is why I don't care what happens to her. She has no morals, I think that kind of person is a danger to have in the group.
Actually, KCohere is right. An antagonist is someone who opposes the main character, whether in a goal, destination, etc. The common misconception with the word antagonist is that people use it to exclusively mean a villain. However, this isn't always the case. All villains are antagonists, but all antagonists aren't villains. An antagonist isn't necessarily always a villain, they can also be good guys, or people with good intentions that just oppose the main protagonist or try to stop them in their goal.
Death Note would be a better example since Light Yagami (the main character) is literally the anti-villain in the story while L, Near,
and Mello, who are actually the good guys, are trying to bring him to justice, thus making them the antagonists because they oppose Light's goal.
No, the antagonist is generally considered the person who is morally bad opposing the morally good.
it just so happens that often the main character IDS morally good, but in the last of us I don't think joel is at all.
..... Rick didnt care either, I doubt anyone would really, she was dead what would they do. Carol invited them back beforehand, and besides season 3 rick was just a pscyhopath so I dont see how he has the right to judge anyone
Thanks for your support!
And about Carol, she proved how callous she had become, when that young couple died.
It was when her and Rick w… moreere on that supply run together, which would be there last.
SheShe showed no remorse when they found that young girl being eaten by walkers.
And when that boy went missing, she just automatically assumed he was dead, and was willing to leave him behind.
Even when Rick said he could still be alive, she basically said: "Who cares?! It's him or us."
Her attitude, was no different than Shane's.
For that attitude, I would say that banishing her was indeed the right call to make.
If Rick did not care, then why did he fight so hard to keep the group safe?
In Season 2.
Why did Rick go out looking for Sophia, even when Shane wanted to give her up for dead?
Why did Rick constantly show Hershel respect, while on his farm, unlike Shane?
Why did Rick stop from shooting that boy,"Randel?"
In Season 3.
Why did Rick spare Oscar and Axel?
Why did Rick go and risk his life to get Glen and Maggie back?
Why did Rick allow Merle to stay?
Why did Rick offer Andrea a chance to come back, same as Hershel did, even though she was hooked up with the Governor?
Why did Rick go and admit he was wrong for how he had been acting, and then give up sole-leadership of the group?
Why did Rick act with shock and grief, over his son committing cold-blooded murder?
And why did Rick take the surviving members of Woodbury in?
If Rick is as bad as you say, why would he do all these things?
And before you describe someone as a psychopath; and just as a friendly suggestion, you may want to research what that term means exactly, and what the difference is between a Psychopath and Sociopath.
..... Rick didnt care either, I doubt anyone would really, she was dead what would they do. Carol invited them back beforehand, and besides season 3 rick was just a pscyhopath so I dont see how he has the right to judge anyone
Look I know the difference and your quoting plenty of times rick did care however in season 3 rick didnt give a damn. These prisoners can just die, i dont care if there not all bad and are different. T-dogs dead, oh well who cares. Hey Michonne you can just die, oh fine carl I'll help you save her. Yes he was in a dark place but he still did all that
All of that is worse than Carol not caring when some chick shes just met is dead, especially as rick didnt care either. Also I'm not saying Carol was right but shes no worse than Rick or anyone else at this point and definatley not worth banishing
If Rick did not care, then why did he fight so hard to keep the group safe?
In Season 2.
Why did Rick go out looking for Sophia, even wh… moreen Shane wanted to give her up for dead?
Why did Rick constantly show Hershel respect, while on his farm, unlike Shane?
Why did Rick stop from shooting that boy,"Randel?"
In Season 3.
Why did Rick spare Oscar and Axel?
Why did Rick go and risk his life to get Glen and Maggie back?
Why did Rick allow Merle to stay?
Why did Rick offer Andrea a chance to come back, same as Hershel did, even though she was hooked up with the Governor?
Why did Rick go and admit he was wrong for how he had been acting, and then give up sole-leadership of the group?
Why did Rick act with shock and grief, over his son committing cold-blooded murder?
And why did Rick take the surviving members of Woodbury in?
If Rick is as bad as you say, why would he do all these things?
And before you describe someone as a psyc… [view original content]
Look I know the difference and your quoting plenty of times rick did care however in season 3 rick didnt give a damn. These prisoners can ju… morest die, i dont care if there not all bad and are different. T-dogs dead, oh well who cares. Hey Michonne you can just die, oh fine carl I'll help you save her. Yes he was in a dark place but he still did all that
All of that is worse than Carol not caring when some chick shes just met is dead, especially as rick didnt care either. Also I'm not saying Carol was right but shes no worse than Rick or anyone else at this point and definatley not worth banishing
But actually, if all villains are antagonists, then that makes us BOTH right in our original argument, doesn't it, as I argue that Joel is the main villain.
I view Ellie as the true 'main character' of it all due to the action switching to her at the very end when Joel lies.
Actually, KCohere is right. An antagonist is someone who opposes the main character, whether in a goal, destination, etc. The common miscon… moreception with the word antagonist is that people use it to exclusively mean a villain. However, this isn't always the case. All villains are antagonists, but all antagonists aren't villains. An antagonist isn't necessarily always a villain, they can also be good guys, or people with good intentions that just oppose the main protagonist or try to stop them in their goal.
Death Note would be a better example since Light Yagami (the main character) is literally the anti-villain in the story while L, Near,
and Mello, who are actually the good guys, are trying to bring him to justice, thus making them the antagonists because they oppose Light's goal.
Except, Joel isn't a villain. At least from most peoples' perspective. He's more of an anti-hero like most people say, which is also not to be confused with the word protagonist (which just means main character). He's as much a main character as Ellie, just like Tidus and Yuna were both the main characters in Final Fantasy X. From his perspective (as a main character and player character of the game), Marlene and Firefly are the antagonists because they stand in Joel's way of saving and protecting Ellie even for his own selfishness. Like I said before, antagonists in stories can also be good guys or characters with good intentions. Antagonists don't even have to be human, in some stories they can be the weather, time, or a disease that the protagonist is trying to combat.
You are right however, that protagonists can be villains, but then by definition, they can't be called antagonists, unless they have a split personality or something that conflicts with their true desires, but that would fall under "disease" or something like that.
Ah, ok fair enough.
But actually, if all villains are antagonists, then that makes us BOTH right in our original argument, doesn't it, as… more I argue that Joel is the main villain.
I view Ellie as the true 'main character' of it all due to the action switching to her at the very end when Joel lies.
I never said he's the villain from most people's perspective, I said that's my interpretation.
From my experience, most anti-heroes have difficult or negative personality traits on a low level, as in social interaction, but will usually wind up doing 'good' or acting 'heroically' in the end. I think Joel acts terribly in the big decisions at the end, and thus I would very much argue he's a villain.
His actions lead to far more innocent deaths than all the other characters in the story combined.
Yes, I said at the start 'ok fair enough' to show I understand your point about antagonism.
Except, Joel isn't a villain. At least from most peoples' perspective. He's more of an anti-hero like most people say, which is also not to … morebe confused with the word protagonist (which just means main character). He's as much a main character as Ellie, just like Tidus and Yuna were both the main characters in Final Fantasy X. From his perspective (as a main character and player character of the game), Marlene and Firefly are the antagonists because they stand in Joel's way of saving and protecting Ellie even for his own selfishness. Like I said before, antagonists in stories can also be good guys or characters with good intentions. Antagonists don't even have to be human, in some stories they can be the weather, time, or a disease that the protagonist is trying to combat.
You are right however, that protagonists can be villains, but then by definition, they can't be called antagonists, unless they have a split personality or something tha… [view original content]
I never said he's the villain from most people's perspective, I said that's my interpretation.
From my experience, most anti-heroes have … moredifficult or negative personality traits on a low level, as in social interaction, but will usually wind up doing 'good' or acting 'heroically' in the end. I think Joel acts terribly in the big decisions at the end, and thus I would very much argue he's a villain.
His actions lead to far more innocent deaths than all the other characters in the story combined.
Yes, I said at the start 'ok fair enough' to show I understand your point about antagonism.
That's not true. Carol knocking over the water and crying is proof that she was already feeling guilty over her actions long before Rick caught her. On top of that, if she had continued keeping the secret from Tyreese, you might be able to say she only cares about not wanting to get caught, but she hands him the gun and tells him the truth, offering up her life as punishment for her actions. But even before she tells him the truth, it's clear that she's suffering internally the entirety of episode 4x14 whenever he brings up Karen.
She was wrong to do what she did, but she isn't a danger to the group. She killed Karen and David mainly because of the extraordinary circumstances of a highly lethal flu strain that could kill a healthy person in a single day, but also partly because she had no familiarity with them. If it had been one of the core group, she wouldn't have done it. Of course, that's not an excuse, but it is the reason why she even considered such an action. It's also why Tyreese had a point when he mentioned that nobody seemed to give a damn about their deaths to Rick, because if it had been one of the core group to get murdered, you can bet Rick would be scouring the prison nonstop for the killer. But she would never visit harm unto the group that remains, and I believe she wouldn't do something like that again, period. Not after what she suffered from doing it this time.
I say she's proven herself enough at this point by telling Tyreese the truth herself, making amends for her mistake, and keeping Judith safe to the point of taking on the horrid responsibility of putting Lizzie down so she would never bring harm to her or anyone else.
That's how I see it as well. Carol was just so clinical/emotionally detached in her actions, like she didn't even care that she killed two d… moreefenseless, sick people, and then proceeded to drag them out and burn them. She didn't seem to care about the act, only that she was caught by Rick. I was disgusted by her actions, which is why I don't care what happens to her. She has no morals, I think that kind of person is a danger to have in the group.
I notice you completely left out Rick leaving the backpack guy screaming for help to die. That was a cold action and showcased how little regard Rick had for a fellow survivor's life. Carol not caring about a survivor she has absolutely no connection to is not a valid reason for throwing her out. Her killing Karen and David however, is a valid reason, but only that. If Rick truly thought her not caring about Ana and Sam was grounds for tossing her out, then he is a Class A hypocrite.
Why did Rick spare Oscar and Axel?
Because he had no reason to kill them, which he knew well enough, but he still didn't care about them. He was ready to toss them out into the road if they didn't live by his rules.
Why did Rick allow Merle to stay?
Solely for Daryl's benefit. He didn't want Merle in the prison, but he did it so Daryl wouldn't take off. Merle was even more of a danger than Carol ever was, and Rick most likely knew that.
Why did Rick offer Andrea a chance to come back, same as Hershel did, even though she was hooked up with the Governor?
I don't recall any offer to bring her back. He cast her out and told her that unless she helped them murder the Governor, they had "nothing to talk about". That's not offering her a return, that's giving her an ultimatum. He was a dick to Andrea most of the time except when he handed her a gun and told her to be careful on her way out of the prison. Only Hershel and Carol ever showed concern for Andrea when she returned.
Why did Rick go and admit he was wrong for how he had been acting, and then give up sole-leadership of the group?
Because he realized what a failure of leader he had become when he actually considered uselessly giving up Michonne to torture and death in the hopes that it would stop the Governor, even though he admitted he knew it most likely wouldn't.
Why did Rick act with shock and grief, over his son committing cold-blooded murder? And why did Rick take the surviving members of Woodbury in?
Because he realized his own callousness and disregard for life was being shown to him through his son. That's also essentially why he brought the survivors in. Indeed it's admirable that Rick decided to make up for his many mistakes and his own darker nature, but Carol has done that as well in the events following the fall of the prison.
I don't believe Rick is necessarily "bad", but I think he recognizes now more than ever that it's not so easy to judge other people's actions. He has essentially admitted now that he has an animalistic fury in him and that being a killer is who he is now. He judged Carol back when he was "Farmer Rick" and trying to distance himself from his fury, but now he can no longer question it. It is who he is, and he's reached an understanding of himself and others now.
If Rick did not care, then why did he fight so hard to keep the group safe?
In Season 2.
Why did Rick go out looking for Sophia, even wh… moreen Shane wanted to give her up for dead?
Why did Rick constantly show Hershel respect, while on his farm, unlike Shane?
Why did Rick stop from shooting that boy,"Randel?"
In Season 3.
Why did Rick spare Oscar and Axel?
Why did Rick go and risk his life to get Glen and Maggie back?
Why did Rick allow Merle to stay?
Why did Rick offer Andrea a chance to come back, same as Hershel did, even though she was hooked up with the Governor?
Why did Rick go and admit he was wrong for how he had been acting, and then give up sole-leadership of the group?
Why did Rick act with shock and grief, over his son committing cold-blooded murder?
And why did Rick take the surviving members of Woodbury in?
If Rick is as bad as you say, why would he do all these things?
And before you describe someone as a psyc… [view original content]
I think that was Carol being upset that Rick wasn't taking her side, and it was also implied that he was going to tell the counsel about her crime, or at least never forget/forgive her for killing those people. Of course the guilt is going to eventually get to her, especially if she's travelling with the person whom her decision hurt the most (excluding the two sick people who thought they could trust her not to murder them while they were in quarantine.) I know the guilt is weighing on her, which is why she told Tyreese about what she did after she killed Lizzie when Mika died. Sophia's death and the guilt that came with it was enough, now it's far too much to carry and she was asking him to kill her. To put her out of her misery. But unlike Carol, Tyreese can't willingly kill a person who he considers a friend, especially when they are practically begging for death.
I believe she is a danger to the group, she showed that she wasn't above killing innocents if it maybe-might-possibly keep her original group safe. Killing those people didn't stop the outbreak, it didn't even slow it down, she didn't think things through. It was just reckless imo. I feel bad that she had to experience watching two little girls die similarly to her late daughter, but there is something about her that is very detached and just so cold. She wanted to die, and Tyreese couldn't give that to her. I don't really trust her, and I wouldn't be surprised if she does something like that again for the supposed "good of the group". I will not be pleased if the group welcomes her with open arms, or aren't at least wary/suspicious of her when they learn the truth.
That's not true. Carol knocking over the water and crying is proof that she was already feeling guilty over her actions long before Rick cau… moreght her. On top of that, if she had continued keeping the secret from Tyreese, you might be able to say she only cares about not wanting to get caught, but she hands him the gun and tells him the truth, offering up her life as punishment for her actions. But even before she tells him the truth, it's clear that she's suffering internally the entirety of episode 4x14 whenever he brings up Karen.
She was wrong to do what she did, but she isn't a danger to the group. She killed Karen and David mainly because of the extraordinary circumstances of a highly lethal flu strain that could kill a healthy person in a single day, but also partly because she had no familiarity with them. If it had been one of the core group, she wouldn't have done it. Of course, that's not an excuse, but it is the reason why she eve… [view original content]
Except that it happened before Rick spoke to her. It was when Tyreese asked her to look out for the sick patients because he could tell she cared about them, causing her breakdown. She also did care about the sick patients when it became clear her actions had failed and the virus was still active, showing as such when she went out and put her life in danger to get fresh water for them, against Rick's orders to wait, which would only be detrimental to them. In the end, her actions were to protect the whole group because nobody else showed signs of infection besides Karen and David at the time; she just went about it in a very misguided and horrible way.
But unlike Carol, Tyreese can't willingly kill a person who he considers a friend
Except when he loses himself in anger, in which case he definitely considers giving into such urges. He very nearly dropped Alan into a pit of walkers (and yeah, Alan was a douche, but it still shows that Tyreese has that darker side to him), and like Rick said, he almost killed him over nothing during their fight. Now yes, I understand there's a difference between acting out in anger and making calculated assaults on someone; I'm just saying that Tyreese has his moments too.
she didn't think things through. It was just reckless imo.
Of course, but if anyone should understand that, it's Rick, coming off of what an asshole he was prior to Hershel beginning a change in him. I believe Carol deserved to get sent away for her crimes, but I also believe that if Rick has done his part in coming back from who he was, then so has Carol even in the short time she's had. I'm sure the group will be wary of her, but also happy to see that she has been doing her part to keep the baby safe, which in itself is commendable.
I think that was Carol being upset that Rick wasn't taking her side, and it was also implied that he was going to tell the counsel about her… more crime, or at least never forget/forgive her for killing those people. Of course the guilt is going to eventually get to her, especially if she's travelling with the person whom her decision hurt the most (excluding the two sick people who thought they could trust her not to murder them while they were in quarantine.) I know the guilt is weighing on her, which is why she told Tyreese about what she did after she killed Lizzie when Mika died. Sophia's death and the guilt that came with it was enough, now it's far too much to carry and she was asking him to kill her. To put her out of her misery. But unlike Carol, Tyreese can't willingly kill a person who he considers a friend, especially when they are practically begging for death.
I believe she is a danger to the group, she showed that she wasn't above… [view original content]
Since you mentioned Lizzie, I have to ask: What in the hell do you think was going on with her?
Feeding mice to walkers, naming them, screaming at Carol when she put one down, then going and killing Mika; and preparing to do the same to Judith.
What the hell was wrong with her?
I think that was Carol being upset that Rick wasn't taking her side, and it was also implied that he was going to tell the counsel about her… more crime, or at least never forget/forgive her for killing those people. Of course the guilt is going to eventually get to her, especially if she's travelling with the person whom her decision hurt the most (excluding the two sick people who thought they could trust her not to murder them while they were in quarantine.) I know the guilt is weighing on her, which is why she told Tyreese about what she did after she killed Lizzie when Mika died. Sophia's death and the guilt that came with it was enough, now it's far too much to carry and she was asking him to kill her. To put her out of her misery. But unlike Carol, Tyreese can't willingly kill a person who he considers a friend, especially when they are practically begging for death.
I believe she is a danger to the group, she showed that she wasn't above… [view original content]
I will agree, Rick has made peace with his brutal side.
However I don't agree with you about Carol, Andrea, Oscar, or Axel.
I think he did feel bad when Oscar was killed at Woodbury.
As well as when Axel was picked off by the Governor.
And I also think Rick did care about Andrea.
The reason he didn't have Daryl go back for her is, when people in a survival scenario go off on their own, they increase the likelihood of getting themselves killed.
And when Andrea had returned, The prison had just been attacked without cause.
The Governor threw the first punch.
So it's natural for everyone to be on edge, and not be trusting, even of ones they know, but haven't seen for a long time.
And Rick did show sorrow for Andrea, as she was dying.
And Rick, never killed anyone who was defenseless.
Like that Mexican prisoner.
Shane.
And others.
Carol however did.
And these were people who trusted her.
So I do not blame Rick for banishing her.
And as far as the guy with the glasses who got ate in the Season finale of episode 4.
He was completely surrounded.
Rick and his group were low on ammo, and lacked melee weapons.
There's no way they could've saved the guy, as he was already surrounded, and there was still to many for them to fight off.
And even if they had, the guy would've been bit and torn apart before they could get to him.
I notice you completely left out Rick leaving the backpack guy screaming for help to die. That was a cold action and showcased how little re… moregard Rick had for a fellow survivor's life. Carol not caring about a survivor she has absolutely no connection to is not a valid reason for throwing her out. Her killing Karen and David however, is a valid reason, but only that. If Rick truly thought her not caring about Ana and Sam was grounds for tossing her out, then he is a Class A hypocrite.
Why did Rick spare Oscar and Axel?
Because he had no reason to kill them, which he knew well enough, but he still didn't care about them. He was ready to toss them out into the road if they didn't live by his rules.
Why did Rick allow Merle to stay?
Solely for Daryl's benefit. He didn't want Merle in the prison, but he did it so Daryl wouldn't take off. Merle was even more of a danger than Carol ever was, and Rick most likely knew that… [view original content]
Shes just lost it, though with the looking at the flowers crap with her sister it seems she had some problems before the ZA even happened. She was basically crazy, lets face it that is what would happen to pretty much all kids
Since you mentioned Lizzie, I have to ask: What in the hell do you think was going on with her?
Feeding mice to walkers, naming them, screa… moreming at Carol when she put one down, then going and killing Mika; and preparing to do the same to Judith.
What the hell was wrong with her?
Not to my mind. Carol has made a few pretty dark decisions lately, but she made them all with a good heart and she didn't make any of them lightly. There wasn't one second of killing group members she did last season that Carol didn't just absolutely hate.
She's not getting cold like Shane or Martinez or Merle or Phillip Blake or even Rick and Carl, to a degree, did. She's just learning how to make a choice when there is no good choice. Was she right to kill any of those people? I don't know about that, but it sure is hard to say she was wrong.
Haha, it's not your mind playing tricks on you. My comment disappeared, so I just replied again just in case.(Getting real sick of comments disappearing.)
I could've sworn you already replied to this. Déjà vu. Well I said that, so I have to post the song too since it's stuck in my head now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrGlcTx520U
She was obviously not well. It seemed that Mika telling Lizzie to "look at the flowers" happened often, and Mika repeatedly said her sister was crazy/messed up and not like other kids. With this in mind, I'm guessing she had medication for her condition prior to the apocalypse. She most likely ran out when it began, so her sickness worsened and she became less in touch with reality, and more dangerous. It was horrible what she did to Mika, and what she almost did to Baby Judith. Although under normal circumstances I wouldn't condone the killing of a child, Lizzie needed to be put down, for the sake of Judith.
However, I always thought that Tyreese leaving with Judith, and Carol staying at the cottage with Lizzie would have been a better idea. This course of action wouldn't involve more death, and may have saved some of Carol's "soul", or at least give her some peace to know she could take care of Lizzie, but also keep Judith safe.
Since you mentioned Lizzie, I have to ask: What in the hell do you think was going on with her?
Feeding mice to walkers, naming them, screa… moreming at Carol when she put one down, then going and killing Mika; and preparing to do the same to Judith.
What the hell was wrong with her?
You are right, it was after. My mistake. I do think she may have been regretting her decision after seeing what it did to Tyreese, but I just can't forget how she stood by as Tyreese lost it on Rick, and proceeded to curl in on himself due to grief. I do think she was trying to protect everyone, but she didn't consult anyone, seeming to think only she knew what was right. Even though it was for a good cause, Carol not listening to Rick was a bad move. It showed again that she only listened to herself, and did not take anyone else's thoughts into account, even her leader who has kept her safe all this time. She did have good intentions, but someone who makes decisions without consulting others (like killing people), and defies the leader's instructions is not a person who can function as a team player in a group imo.
But he didn't kill him, that is why there is a significant difference. Carol killed two of her own people, who were defenseless, sick, and, more importantly, trusted her to take care of them. Tyreese contemplated letting a man, who he wasn't sure he could call a friend anymore, fall into a pit of walkers, because that man seemed to have no problem with condemning women and children to death.
I appreciate her keeping the baby safe, I really do. But that doesn't change what she did to those people, they were innocent. Even after everything she did in the season 5 premiere, I am still wary of her. I can't forget her words to the Terminus woman, "I'm not here anymore, and neither are you." I can't help but think that her soul is broken beyond repair, or simply gone after everything that has happened to her.
Except that it happened before Rick spoke to her. It was when Tyreese asked her to look out for the sick patients because he could tell she … morecared about them, causing her breakdown. She also did care about the sick patients when it became clear her actions had failed and the virus was still active, showing as such when she went out and put her life in danger to get fresh water for them, against Rick's orders to wait, which would only be detrimental to them. In the end, her actions were to protect the whole group because nobody else showed signs of infection besides Karen and David at the time; she just went about it in a very misguided and horrible way.
But unlike Carol, Tyreese can't willingly kill a person who he considers a friend
Except when he loses himself in anger, in which case he definitely considers giving into such urges. He very nearly dropped Alan into a pit of walkers (and yeah, Alan was a douche, but it still shows… [view original content]
I do have to say, I like the person that Carroll has become this Season.
Yes she does what has to be done.
But at the same time, she still shows compassion for others.
I've seen her redeem herself.
Her taking care of those kids, particularly Judith.
And in her rescuing the group from those sick Terminus bastards.
I'm actually impressed with how her character has been developed this Season.
And I am truly impressed with Melissa McBride's acting talent.
In my personal opinion, Lincoln, Reedus, and McBride, deserve awards.
She was obviously not well. It seemed that Mika telling Lizzie to "look at the flowers" happened often, and Mika repeatedly said her sister … morewas crazy/messed up and not like other kids. With this in mind, I'm guessing she had medication for her condition prior to the apocalypse. She most likely ran out when it began, so her sickness worsened and she became less in touch with reality, and more dangerous. It was horrible what she did to Mika, and what she almost did to Baby Judith. Although under normal circumstances I wouldn't condone the killing of a child, Lizzie needed to be put down, for the sake of Judith.
However, I always thought that Tyreese leaving with Judith, and Carol staying at the cottage with Lizzie would have been a better idea. This course of action wouldn't involve more death, and may have saved some of Carol's "soul", or at least give her some peace to know she could take care of Lizzie, but also keep Judith safe.
Shes just lost it, though with the looking at the flowers crap with her sister it seems she had some problems before the ZA even happened. She was basically crazy, lets face it that is what would happen to pretty much all kids
eh..tbh I really dislike Carol, I thought it was a bit of a cop out to give her all these badass/emotional scenes that force the audience to like her and feel bad for her despite everything she's done. I'm honestly not very happy with where the show is going. It's gotten too predictable and repetitive for my tastes. I'm not sure if I'm going to continue to watch it after that abysmal mid season finale. Though this is all in my opinion of course.:/
I do have to say, I like the person that Carroll has become this Season.
Yes she does what has to be done.
But at the same time, she still… more shows compassion for others.
I've seen her redeem herself.
Her taking care of those kids, particularly Judith.
And in her rescuing the group from those sick Terminus bastards.
I'm actually impressed with how her character has been developed this Season.
And I am truly impressed with Melissa McBride's acting talent.
In my personal opinion, Lincoln, Reedus, and McBride, deserve awards.
I don't think Reedus has done anything to deserve an award just yet. I'm waiting for him to impress me, but I have liked him a lot more this past season.
I do have to say, I like the person that Carroll has become this Season.
Yes she does what has to be done.
But at the same time, she still… more shows compassion for others.
I've seen her redeem herself.
Her taking care of those kids, particularly Judith.
And in her rescuing the group from those sick Terminus bastards.
I'm actually impressed with how her character has been developed this Season.
And I am truly impressed with Melissa McBride's acting talent.
In my personal opinion, Lincoln, Reedus, and McBride, deserve awards.
eh..tbh I really dislike Carol, I thought it was a bit of a cop out to give her all these badass/emotional scenes that force the audience to… more like her and feel bad for her despite everything she's done. I'm honestly not very happy with where the show is going. It's gotten too predictable and repetitive for my tastes. I'm not sure if I'm going to continue to watch it after that abysmal mid season finale. Though this is all in my opinion of course.:/
No, I think it was a cop out to let her get off so easy for murdering two innocent people, by giving her an unrealistic "badass G.I Jane" scene, and then having the group welcome her with open arms as though nothing ever happened, as though she didn't set fire to two innocent people who were part of her own group. She lied to them, murdered people in their group, felt no regret for what she did, acted without consulting anyone, and yet they still trust her so willingly. It makes no sense, so it's a cop out. The show has downplayed her mistakes and has given her badass scenes and emotional angst scenes to make the audience like her, feel sorry for her, and forget the significance of what she did. Again, this in my opinion.
They've all killed people. I think they're passed making judgements now, especially now when Carol not only saved their lives but reunited Rick and Carl with Judith. I don't think they have downplayed what she did. It's the reason Rick banished her, but they all need each other now to survive so they are moving past it. Except for the baby, no one has clean hands. I feel that Carol development wasn't tacked on. It's been building from the start.
No, I think it was a cop out to let her get off so easy for murdering two innocent people, by giving her an unrealistic "badass G.I Jane" sc… moreene, and then having the group welcome her with open arms as though nothing ever happened, as though she didn't set fire to two innocent people who were part of her own group. She lied to them, murdered people in their group, felt no regret for what she did, acted without consulting anyone, and yet they still trust her so willingly. It makes no sense, so it's a cop out. The show has downplayed her mistakes and has given her badass scenes and emotional angst scenes to make the audience like her, feel sorry for her, and forget the significance of what she did. Again, this in my opinion.
I never said they didn't. I'm talking about Carol right now, not everyone else. And the difference is that she is the only one who has killed innocent sick people from her own group, who were already in quarantine. She consulted no one in her decision to murder them, she assumed she knew what's best. And look what happened, it didn't stop the sickness from breaking out it was already airborne. It helped no one, she killed them for nothing. And even after she was confronted by Rick, she said she'd do it again, and this is after she has learned their deaths prevented nothing. Banishing her was a fit punishment, but it lost it's impact when she was forgiven so easily by Tyreese(which is another cop out, I don't care how nice Tyreese is, to forgive someone that quickly for killing your girlfriend made no sense), and then welcomed back so warmly by the whole group, as though Rick was in the wrong for making her leave, and that he should apologize to her. That's the message that ended up being delivered, Carol lied and killed people from her own group, explicitly said she would do it again without consulting anyone, Rick punished her for it, cue deus ex machina where Carol single handedly saves everyone and all is forgiven, so now it looks like said punishment was out of line and that Carol was in the right all along etc. It was all for naught, and now we're supposed to sympathize with her for being kicked out of the group, and for what happened with Lizzie and Mika, which was partly her fault due to how she influenced Lizzie tbh. Her "character development" was solely so the whole audience would like her again in hopes of making us forget what she's done. That's why it's a cop out. And I'd argue that her transformation from spineless meek housewife to badass survivor woman was enough character development for her, and I'm tired of seeing her get so much screen time tbh.
They've all killed people. I think they're passed making judgements now, especially now when Carol not only saved their lives but reunited R… moreick and Carl with Judith. I don't think they have downplayed what she did. It's the reason Rick banished her, but they all need each other now to survive so they are moving past it. Except for the baby, no one has clean hands. I feel that Carol development wasn't tacked on. It's been building from the start.
Well, you are obviously not a fan of the character so I won't argue the point. I haven't forgotten a thing she has done but I still enjoy the character and how she has developed.
I never said they didn't. I'm talking about Carol right now, not everyone else. And the difference is that she is the only one who has kille… mored innocent sick people from her own group, who were already in quarantine. She consulted no one in her decision to murder them, she assumed she knew what's best. And look what happened, it didn't stop the sickness from breaking out it was already airborne. It helped no one, she killed them for nothing. And even after she was confronted by Rick, she said she'd do it again, and this is after she has learned their deaths prevented nothing. Banishing her was a fit punishment, but it lost it's impact when she was forgiven so easily by Tyreese(which is another cop out, I don't care how nice Tyreese is, to forgive someone that quickly for killing your girlfriend made no sense), and then welcomed back so warmly by the whole group, as though Rick was in the wrong for making her leave, and that he should apologize … [view original content]
whereas Jane expresses shock and panic when she has to.
I don't really want to start an argument, but I always found it confusing th… moreat Jane was okay with shooting Troy in a dick and let him be devoured alive, but when she had to kill Vitali to protect the group, she was terrified.
Comments
I disagree they were ill, pretty much dead. I dont think she liked doing it but it had to be done to stop it spreading. The way she handled lizzie showed she still cared
If I were comic Rick I totally would've tried to close that 3-some.
Almost everyone has a soft spot.
And almost every parent loves their children.
But that doesn't make them a good or ethical person.
For example, the Governor; pleaded for his zombified daughter, when Michonne had her blade to her head.
And yet look at what kind of man he was.
Just because he loved his daughter, didn't mean he was a good man.
Thanks for your support!
And about Carol, she proved how callous she had become, when that young couple died.
It was when her and Rick were on that supply run together, which would be there last.
SheShe showed no remorse when they found that young girl being eaten by walkers.
And when that boy went missing, she just automatically assumed he was dead, and was willing to leave him behind.
Even when Rick said he could still be alive, she basically said: "Who cares?! It's him or us."
Her attitude, was no different than Shane's.
For that attitude, I would say that banishing her was indeed the right call to make.
Actually, KCohere is right. An antagonist is someone who opposes the main character, whether in a goal, destination, etc. The common misconception with the word antagonist is that people use it to exclusively mean a villain. However, this isn't always the case. All villains are antagonists, but all antagonists aren't villains. An antagonist isn't necessarily always a villain, they can also be good guys, or people with good intentions that just oppose the main protagonist or try to stop them in their goal.
Death Note would be a better example since Light Yagami (the main character) is literally the anti-villain in the story while L, Near,
and Mello, who are actually the good guys, are trying to bring him to justice, thus making them the antagonists because they oppose Light's goal.
I hope not. I like Carol.
..... Rick didnt care either, I doubt anyone would really, she was dead what would they do. Carol invited them back beforehand, and besides season 3 rick was just a pscyhopath so I dont see how he has the right to judge anyone
If Rick did not care, then why did he fight so hard to keep the group safe?
In Season 2.
Why did Rick go out looking for Sophia, even when Shane wanted to give her up for dead?
Why did Rick constantly show Hershel respect, while on his farm, unlike Shane?
Why did Rick stop from shooting that boy,"Randel?"
In Season 3.
Why did Rick spare Oscar and Axel?
Why did Rick go and risk his life to get Glen and Maggie back?
Why did Rick allow Merle to stay?
Why did Rick offer Andrea a chance to come back, same as Hershel did, even though she was hooked up with the Governor?
Why did Rick go and admit he was wrong for how he had been acting, and then give up sole-leadership of the group?
Why did Rick act with shock and grief, over his son committing cold-blooded murder?
And why did Rick take the surviving members of Woodbury in?
If Rick is as bad as you say, why would he do all these things?
And before you describe someone as a psychopath; and just as a friendly suggestion, you may want to research what that term means exactly, and what the difference is between a Psychopath and Sociopath.
Look I know the difference and your quoting plenty of times rick did care however in season 3 rick didnt give a damn. These prisoners can just die, i dont care if there not all bad and are different. T-dogs dead, oh well who cares. Hey Michonne you can just die, oh fine carl I'll help you save her. Yes he was in a dark place but he still did all that
All of that is worse than Carol not caring when some chick shes just met is dead, especially as rick didnt care either. Also I'm not saying Carol was right but shes no worse than Rick or anyone else at this point and definatley not worth banishing
One thing you have to remember, Rick lost Lori in Season 3.
A loss like that, will change anyone.
Ah, ok fair enough.
But actually, if all villains are antagonists, then that makes us BOTH right in our original argument, doesn't it, as I argue that Joel is the main villain.
I view Ellie as the true 'main character' of it all due to the action switching to her at the very end when Joel lies.
Except, Joel isn't a villain. At least from most peoples' perspective. He's more of an anti-hero like most people say, which is also not to be confused with the word protagonist (which just means main character). He's as much a main character as Ellie, just like Tidus and Yuna were both the main characters in Final Fantasy X. From his perspective (as a main character and player character of the game), Marlene and Firefly are the antagonists because they stand in Joel's way of saving and protecting Ellie even for his own selfishness. Like I said before, antagonists in stories can also be good guys or characters with good intentions. Antagonists don't even have to be human, in some stories they can be the weather, time, or a disease that the protagonist is trying to combat.
You are right however, that protagonists can be villains, but then by definition, they can't be called antagonists, unless they have a split personality or something that conflicts with their true desires, but that would fall under "disease" or something like that.
I never said he's the villain from most people's perspective, I said that's my interpretation.
From my experience, most anti-heroes have difficult or negative personality traits on a low level, as in social interaction, but will usually wind up doing 'good' or acting 'heroically' in the end. I think Joel acts terribly in the big decisions at the end, and thus I would very much argue he's a villain.
His actions lead to far more innocent deaths than all the other characters in the story combined.
Yes, I said at the start 'ok fair enough' to show I understand your point about antagonism.
Then I guess it's just how one chooses to view Joel's actions as a character. To me, I still see him as an anit-hero.
My bad, didn't see your first line there.
That's not true. Carol knocking over the water and crying is proof that she was already feeling guilty over her actions long before Rick caught her. On top of that, if she had continued keeping the secret from Tyreese, you might be able to say she only cares about not wanting to get caught, but she hands him the gun and tells him the truth, offering up her life as punishment for her actions. But even before she tells him the truth, it's clear that she's suffering internally the entirety of episode 4x14 whenever he brings up Karen.
She was wrong to do what she did, but she isn't a danger to the group. She killed Karen and David mainly because of the extraordinary circumstances of a highly lethal flu strain that could kill a healthy person in a single day, but also partly because she had no familiarity with them. If it had been one of the core group, she wouldn't have done it. Of course, that's not an excuse, but it is the reason why she even considered such an action. It's also why Tyreese had a point when he mentioned that nobody seemed to give a damn about their deaths to Rick, because if it had been one of the core group to get murdered, you can bet Rick would be scouring the prison nonstop for the killer. But she would never visit harm unto the group that remains, and I believe she wouldn't do something like that again, period. Not after what she suffered from doing it this time.
I say she's proven herself enough at this point by telling Tyreese the truth herself, making amends for her mistake, and keeping Judith safe to the point of taking on the horrid responsibility of putting Lizzie down so she would never bring harm to her or anyone else.
Carbs make you fat not fat. Alot of fat is found in cheese & cheese is a really good food for you.
I notice you completely left out Rick leaving the backpack guy screaming for help to die. That was a cold action and showcased how little regard Rick had for a fellow survivor's life. Carol not caring about a survivor she has absolutely no connection to is not a valid reason for throwing her out. Her killing Karen and David however, is a valid reason, but only that. If Rick truly thought her not caring about Ana and Sam was grounds for tossing her out, then he is a Class A hypocrite.
Because he had no reason to kill them, which he knew well enough, but he still didn't care about them. He was ready to toss them out into the road if they didn't live by his rules.
Solely for Daryl's benefit. He didn't want Merle in the prison, but he did it so Daryl wouldn't take off. Merle was even more of a danger than Carol ever was, and Rick most likely knew that.
I don't recall any offer to bring her back. He cast her out and told her that unless she helped them murder the Governor, they had "nothing to talk about". That's not offering her a return, that's giving her an ultimatum. He was a dick to Andrea most of the time except when he handed her a gun and told her to be careful on her way out of the prison. Only Hershel and Carol ever showed concern for Andrea when she returned.
Because he realized what a failure of leader he had become when he actually considered uselessly giving up Michonne to torture and death in the hopes that it would stop the Governor, even though he admitted he knew it most likely wouldn't.
Because he realized his own callousness and disregard for life was being shown to him through his son. That's also essentially why he brought the survivors in. Indeed it's admirable that Rick decided to make up for his many mistakes and his own darker nature, but Carol has done that as well in the events following the fall of the prison.
I don't believe Rick is necessarily "bad", but I think he recognizes now more than ever that it's not so easy to judge other people's actions. He has essentially admitted now that he has an animalistic fury in him and that being a killer is who he is now. He judged Carol back when he was "Farmer Rick" and trying to distance himself from his fury, but now he can no longer question it. It is who he is, and he's reached an understanding of himself and others now.
I think that was Carol being upset that Rick wasn't taking her side, and it was also implied that he was going to tell the counsel about her crime, or at least never forget/forgive her for killing those people. Of course the guilt is going to eventually get to her, especially if she's travelling with the person whom her decision hurt the most (excluding the two sick people who thought they could trust her not to murder them while they were in quarantine.) I know the guilt is weighing on her, which is why she told Tyreese about what she did after she killed Lizzie when Mika died. Sophia's death and the guilt that came with it was enough, now it's far too much to carry and she was asking him to kill her. To put her out of her misery. But unlike Carol, Tyreese can't willingly kill a person who he considers a friend, especially when they are practically begging for death.
I believe she is a danger to the group, she showed that she wasn't above killing innocents if it maybe-might-possibly keep her original group safe. Killing those people didn't stop the outbreak, it didn't even slow it down, she didn't think things through. It was just reckless imo. I feel bad that she had to experience watching two little girls die similarly to her late daughter, but there is something about her that is very detached and just so cold. She wanted to die, and Tyreese couldn't give that to her. I don't really trust her, and I wouldn't be surprised if she does something like that again for the supposed "good of the group". I will not be pleased if the group welcomes her with open arms, or aren't at least wary/suspicious of her when they learn the truth.
lol, I didn't even realize that was what I was typing.xD
Except that it happened before Rick spoke to her. It was when Tyreese asked her to look out for the sick patients because he could tell she cared about them, causing her breakdown. She also did care about the sick patients when it became clear her actions had failed and the virus was still active, showing as such when she went out and put her life in danger to get fresh water for them, against Rick's orders to wait, which would only be detrimental to them. In the end, her actions were to protect the whole group because nobody else showed signs of infection besides Karen and David at the time; she just went about it in a very misguided and horrible way.
Except when he loses himself in anger, in which case he definitely considers giving into such urges. He very nearly dropped Alan into a pit of walkers (and yeah, Alan was a douche, but it still shows that Tyreese has that darker side to him), and like Rick said, he almost killed him over nothing during their fight. Now yes, I understand there's a difference between acting out in anger and making calculated assaults on someone; I'm just saying that Tyreese has his moments too.
Of course, but if anyone should understand that, it's Rick, coming off of what an asshole he was prior to Hershel beginning a change in him. I believe Carol deserved to get sent away for her crimes, but I also believe that if Rick has done his part in coming back from who he was, then so has Carol even in the short time she's had. I'm sure the group will be wary of her, but also happy to see that she has been doing her part to keep the baby safe, which in itself is commendable.
Since you mentioned Lizzie, I have to ask: What in the hell do you think was going on with her?
Feeding mice to walkers, naming them, screaming at Carol when she put one down, then going and killing Mika; and preparing to do the same to Judith.
What the hell was wrong with her?
I will agree, Rick has made peace with his brutal side.
However I don't agree with you about Carol, Andrea, Oscar, or Axel.
I think he did feel bad when Oscar was killed at Woodbury.
As well as when Axel was picked off by the Governor.
And I also think Rick did care about Andrea.
The reason he didn't have Daryl go back for her is, when people in a survival scenario go off on their own, they increase the likelihood of getting themselves killed.
And when Andrea had returned, The prison had just been attacked without cause.
The Governor threw the first punch.
So it's natural for everyone to be on edge, and not be trusting, even of ones they know, but haven't seen for a long time.
And Rick did show sorrow for Andrea, as she was dying.
And Rick, never killed anyone who was defenseless.
Like that Mexican prisoner.
Shane.
And others.
Carol however did.
And these were people who trusted her.
So I do not blame Rick for banishing her.
And as far as the guy with the glasses who got ate in the Season finale of episode 4.
He was completely surrounded.
Rick and his group were low on ammo, and lacked melee weapons.
There's no way they could've saved the guy, as he was already surrounded, and there was still to many for them to fight off.
And even if they had, the guy would've been bit and torn apart before they could get to him.
Shes just lost it, though with the looking at the flowers crap with her sister it seems she had some problems before the ZA even happened. She was basically crazy, lets face it that is what would happen to pretty much all kids
Not to my mind. Carol has made a few pretty dark decisions lately, but she made them all with a good heart and she didn't make any of them lightly. There wasn't one second of killing group members she did last season that Carol didn't just absolutely hate.
She's not getting cold like Shane or Martinez or Merle or Phillip Blake or even Rick and Carl, to a degree, did. She's just learning how to make a choice when there is no good choice. Was she right to kill any of those people? I don't know about that, but it sure is hard to say she was wrong.
I could've sworn you already replied to this. Déjà vu. Well I said that, so I have to post the song too since it's stuck in my head now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrGlcTx520U
Haha, it's not your mind playing tricks on you. My comment disappeared, so I just replied again just in case.(Getting real sick of comments disappearing.)
She was obviously not well. It seemed that Mika telling Lizzie to "look at the flowers" happened often, and Mika repeatedly said her sister was crazy/messed up and not like other kids. With this in mind, I'm guessing she had medication for her condition prior to the apocalypse. She most likely ran out when it began, so her sickness worsened and she became less in touch with reality, and more dangerous. It was horrible what she did to Mika, and what she almost did to Baby Judith. Although under normal circumstances I wouldn't condone the killing of a child, Lizzie needed to be put down, for the sake of Judith.
However, I always thought that Tyreese leaving with Judith, and Carol staying at the cottage with Lizzie would have been a better idea. This course of action wouldn't involve more death, and may have saved some of Carol's "soul", or at least give her some peace to know she could take care of Lizzie, but also keep Judith safe.
You are right, it was after. My mistake. I do think she may have been regretting her decision after seeing what it did to Tyreese, but I just can't forget how she stood by as Tyreese lost it on Rick, and proceeded to curl in on himself due to grief. I do think she was trying to protect everyone, but she didn't consult anyone, seeming to think only she knew what was right. Even though it was for a good cause, Carol not listening to Rick was a bad move. It showed again that she only listened to herself, and did not take anyone else's thoughts into account, even her leader who has kept her safe all this time. She did have good intentions, but someone who makes decisions without consulting others (like killing people), and defies the leader's instructions is not a person who can function as a team player in a group imo.
But he didn't kill him, that is why there is a significant difference. Carol killed two of her own people, who were defenseless, sick, and, more importantly, trusted her to take care of them. Tyreese contemplated letting a man, who he wasn't sure he could call a friend anymore, fall into a pit of walkers, because that man seemed to have no problem with condemning women and children to death.
I appreciate her keeping the baby safe, I really do. But that doesn't change what she did to those people, they were innocent. Even after everything she did in the season 5 premiere, I am still wary of her. I can't forget her words to the Terminus woman, "I'm not here anymore, and neither are you." I can't help but think that her soul is broken beyond repair, or simply gone after everything that has happened to her.
I do have to say, I like the person that Carroll has become this Season.
Yes she does what has to be done.
But at the same time, she still shows compassion for others.
I've seen her redeem herself.
Her taking care of those kids, particularly Judith.
And in her rescuing the group from those sick Terminus bastards.
I'm actually impressed with how her character has been developed this Season.
And I am truly impressed with Melissa McBride's acting talent.
In my personal opinion, Lincoln, Reedus, and McBride, deserve awards.
That didn't happen to Mika.
Nor did that happen to Carl.
They both kept their sanity, and their humanity.
eh..tbh I really dislike Carol, I thought it was a bit of a cop out to give her all these badass/emotional scenes that force the audience to like her and feel bad for her despite everything she's done. I'm honestly not very happy with where the show is going. It's gotten too predictable and repetitive for my tastes. I'm not sure if I'm going to continue to watch it after that abysmal mid season finale. Though this is all in my opinion of course.:/
I don't think Reedus has done anything to deserve an award just yet. I'm waiting for him to impress me, but I have liked him a lot more this past season.
You think it's a cop out to give her character more development?
No, I think it was a cop out to let her get off so easy for murdering two innocent people, by giving her an unrealistic "badass G.I Jane" scene, and then having the group welcome her with open arms as though nothing ever happened, as though she didn't set fire to two innocent people who were part of her own group. She lied to them, murdered people in their group, felt no regret for what she did, acted without consulting anyone, and yet they still trust her so willingly. It makes no sense, so it's a cop out. The show has downplayed her mistakes and has given her badass scenes and emotional angst scenes to make the audience like her, feel sorry for her, and forget the significance of what she did. Again, this in my opinion.
In the sense of that development masking some of her more unrelatable/ cold qualities? Kind of.
They've all killed people. I think they're passed making judgements now, especially now when Carol not only saved their lives but reunited Rick and Carl with Judith. I don't think they have downplayed what she did. It's the reason Rick banished her, but they all need each other now to survive so they are moving past it. Except for the baby, no one has clean hands. I feel that Carol development wasn't tacked on. It's been building from the start.
No... he killed Shane from self defense.
I never said they didn't. I'm talking about Carol right now, not everyone else. And the difference is that she is the only one who has killed innocent sick people from her own group, who were already in quarantine. She consulted no one in her decision to murder them, she assumed she knew what's best. And look what happened, it didn't stop the sickness from breaking out it was already airborne. It helped no one, she killed them for nothing. And even after she was confronted by Rick, she said she'd do it again, and this is after she has learned their deaths prevented nothing. Banishing her was a fit punishment, but it lost it's impact when she was forgiven so easily by Tyreese(which is another cop out, I don't care how nice Tyreese is, to forgive someone that quickly for killing your girlfriend made no sense), and then welcomed back so warmly by the whole group, as though Rick was in the wrong for making her leave, and that he should apologize to her. That's the message that ended up being delivered, Carol lied and killed people from her own group, explicitly said she would do it again without consulting anyone, Rick punished her for it, cue deus ex machina where Carol single handedly saves everyone and all is forgiven, so now it looks like said punishment was out of line and that Carol was in the right all along etc. It was all for naught, and now we're supposed to sympathize with her for being kicked out of the group, and for what happened with Lizzie and Mika, which was partly her fault due to how she influenced Lizzie tbh. Her "character development" was solely so the whole audience would like her again in hopes of making us forget what she's done. That's why it's a cop out. And I'd argue that her transformation from spineless meek housewife to badass survivor woman was enough character development for her, and I'm tired of seeing her get so much screen time tbh.
Well, you are obviously not a fan of the character so I won't argue the point. I haven't forgotten a thing she has done but I still enjoy the character and how she has developed.
Well, she said it felt wrong to kill someone who hadn't wronged her in some way personally