I actually had this whole analysis on how the characters are all just aspects of Clementine's psyche and memories before finally falling apa… morert in No Going Back. It kinda lost in another thread between the conversations I was having with a couple of people so if you don't mind, I'll repost it here.
* Pete's her desire for a strong encouraging guardian like Lee, but the bitter memories of losing Lee cause Pete to die in the same way, getting bitten while just being careless for a moment. Nick saying "You could have saved him" is actually Clem's own guilt over Lee dying.
* Nick is obviously her memories and feelings towards Ben, a pity at his plight and general like of his well meaning nature. The scene in the shed with him a chance to say things to Ben she wish she had said before. Nick death's are obvious replays of Ben's as well. They both can die because a supposedly good man and a teacher (Walter/Lee) chooses to let them perish. Or he… [view original content]
Understandable. But there is a silver lining to enduring. In one case (literal, not this very interesting and abstract idea) she ends up in Wellington. Where she can, theoretically, be happy, loved, and taught (etc.). Your idea on it being "less depressing" could be applied if she were to decide to kill herself after coming to terms with not wanting to live anymore, but I find that extremely depressing, also. Of course I don't enjoy the thought of her walking around unsafe, lonely, sad, etc anymore, but the thought of her dying alone in a place she dislikes also doesn't please me. Of course, neither of these endings are bad for the particular reason they are sad, just that I find her being dead as more sad vs her being in a somewhat safe place surrounded by people she could enjoy and such.
You said that everyone dies, and that's true, but most get the chance to learn and love and everything else that comes with having a life in… more the first place. Something she doesn't get.
Well that actually might be why I found this crazy theory less depressing, there is VERY little loving of anything for Clementine in this season and the learning is mostly how to kill things better. For me it's less bleak and depressing to think she's accepts her death, savoring the time she did get and realizes she won't have to suffer anymore, instead of trudging on forever as some hollow shell of her former self who mostly just marches from one place to another waiting for something to do. =/
A little girl shrugs off getting shot in the chest.
A grown man - one who survived getting his eye beaten into oblivion - is killed by a gut shot.
Problem, Telltale?
I just REALLY don't want to think about what's going to happen in Season 3. If they're going to time skip again and suggest Clem is just drifting aimlessly for years until the next zombie cliche crops up for her to fight through. She needs some kind of motivation at this point. But I doubt they're going to give it to her. So really I'm more comfortable with her dying at this point then just being used as a generic video game protagonist with all her character stripped away. What's the point in keeping her alive if all she's gonna do is just kill more zombies. Freakin' anyone can do that. =/
Understandable. But there is a silver lining to enduring. In one case (literal, not this very interesting and abstract idea) she ends up in … moreWellington. Where she can, theoretically, be happy, loved, and taught (etc.). Your idea on it being "less depressing" could be applied if she were to decide to kill herself after coming to terms with not wanting to live anymore, but I find that extremely depressing, also. Of course I don't enjoy the thought of her walking around unsafe, lonely, sad, etc anymore, but the thought of her dying alone in a place she dislikes also doesn't please me. Of course, neither of these endings are bad for the particular reason they are sad, just that I find her being dead as more sad vs her being in a somewhat safe place surrounded by people she could enjoy and such.
It was more of the shoulder than the chest. And Kenny was already hurt by Jane's knife, causing him to bleed heavily. The gunshot caused him to lose more blood, so he died from blood loss.
A little girl shrugs off getting shot in the chest.
A grown man - one who survived getting his eye beaten into oblivion - is killed by a gut shot.
Problem, Telltale?
When rereading my stance it comes to my attention that the fact I would like the scenario of season two's ending and events compared to your idea probably speaks negatively about season two. The fact that I would so eagerly, and without hesitation, prefer her to go through all of these horrible trials that should scar her and leave her mind a barren waste leads me to believe that season two actually did a shitty job of making me feel anything for the events.
I was speaking specifically for her character and not the implications to the story by choosing one or the other. Which I see as a happier ending for her, not which I would actually prefer to happen for the sake of story or which one is better. (Simply stated: I prefer yours for good, tragic story, I prefer theirs if it was real.)
I truly hope they take the advise of fans like you and revert to their original style of story telling. I absolutely hate that they threw away so much of her just so the player feels capable and like they are so important to the group/story/plot/etc. Lee didn't feel important, he felt as much a contributor to the group as any of the other capable characters. Contributions both negative and positive. I don't come to this game for feats of strength and glory, especially from the body of what should be a fairly unremarkable, but still above average 11 year old girl.
To summarize our "disagreement" I completely agree with you on all the points you stated. I just feel her dying is more sad than her literal endings in season 2. While I definitely prefer her dying than her literal endings in season 2.
I just REALLY don't want to think about what's going to happen in Season 3. If they're going to time skip again and suggest Clem is just dri… morefting aimlessly for years until the next zombie cliche crops up for her to fight through. She needs some kind of motivation at this point. But I doubt they're going to give it to her. So really I'm more comfortable with her dying at this point then just being used as a generic video game protagonist with all her character stripped away. What's the point in keeping her alive if all she's gonna do is just kill more zombies. Freakin' anyone can do that. =/
Lee didn't feel important, he felt as much a contributor to the group as any of the other capable characters. Contributions both negative and positive.
Yeah... I'm never gonna forgive myself for letting Lilly back in the R.V. I was actually disappointed Kenny wasn't angrier with Lee/Me. That was the one time I felt like he'd be completely justified in blowing up on me. Dammit Kenny, the one time I count on you to be an asshole to me is the one time you give me a Mulligan on something. =P
And that's a keen observation about Lee not being the center of attention in-universe. Out of universe he's the audiences viewpoint character, but in-universe he's just one of the people part of a group. He doesn't get special treatment because we control him and the other characters won't hesitate to argue or question him. All though S1 is basically his story, he ends up feeling like part of a larger story because of how well made all the other characters were. It's exemplified in his actual death. His death both serves as the natural conclusion to his story, and also demonstrates his story wasn't the only being told in this world.
S2 makes the same mistake a lot of poor sequels makes, which is to inflate the importance of things that should only be important to the audience. Clementine is just some girl who was given a five minute firearms lesson and some basic encouragement and advice on survival after a magic hobo talked to man who took care of her. She was a fascinating character that we all loved, but in the world she inhabits she's just some scared kid trying to survive. But that's not how she's treated in most of S2.
After her arm is sewn up pretty much everything revolves around her. Everyone suddenly trusts her, everyone comes to her for advice, she has to do everything, the fucking main villain treats her as his greatest foe despite only meeting her briefly one time and she's done nothing to foil him as of yet, the supposed silent loner Jane suddenly has to imprint on Clem, and she's supposedly the only one can reach Kenny despite there never really being much evidence that they had any kind of actual relationship in S1 other than he was one of the adults who may have protected her. These things only happen to her because she's important to the audience.
And for me it's hard to feel for S2 Clem because she seems like a different person really after the big time skip. And since we get no clue what happened during it other than maybe Christa being angry at Clementine, nor do we see the aftermath of the devastating events of the first season since the prologue jumps over that, it's hard for me to apply feelings I had for her in season one to her season two counterpart. Without seeing the actual transformation between these two versions of her it's just confusing.
All game I'm just thinking why does she seem to have trouble relating to someone like Sarah. Even the nicest options make it seem like Clem is kinda distant from her, when this seems like the kind of person S1 Clem would love to make friends with. A sweet girl who admires and defends Clem who ends up experiencing a lot of the same trauma Clem did in S1. Seemed like they had a lot in common and they'd have no reason to not get along, but you're not really given much chance to emphasize with her as Clem. The reason is probably because a lot of the audience can't directly relate to Sarah, so neither will Clementine now.
Again, it's complete 180 from the first season. Where Clementine often would influence the player. A lot of people are hot to kill Ben, unless Clementine speaks up, then it's like "Oh...well now I don't feel so good about this.", including Christa. A lot of people don't like or relate to Ben, but seeing Clem stand up for him makes them reconsider a little. Come S2, her character is defined by audience expectations. If you like don't Sarah, then right at the start of In Harm's Way you can have Clem go off on a bizarre rant about how much she hates listening to Sarah pee for the unspeakable crime of her trying to politely thank Clem.
The endings don't engage me because it feels like they're just written for the audience. Pick whatever you want for Clem, her character will adapt to fit your personal preference. I'd rather she had died true to her character than just being completely defined by the audience. =/
When rereading my stance it comes to my attention that the fact I would like the scenario of season two's ending and events compared to your… more idea probably speaks negatively about season two. The fact that I would so eagerly, and without hesitation, prefer her to go through all of these horrible trials that should scar her and leave her mind a barren waste leads me to believe that season two actually did a shitty job of making me feel anything for the events.
I was speaking specifically for her character and not the implications to the story by choosing one or the other. Which I see as a happier ending for her, not which I would actually prefer to happen for the sake of story or which one is better. (Simply stated: I prefer yours for good, tragic story, I prefer theirs if it was real.)
I truly hope they take the advise of fans like you and revert to their original style of story telling. I absolutely hate that they threw away so much of … [view original content]
Clem is shot in the SHOULDER. She'd be dead if she was shot in the chest.
Clementine clearly shows signs of pain throughout Episode 5 with the gunshot wound (She can't move it much while running as seen in Kenny's ending), and just because she has a wound doesn't mean that she can't hold anything.
Here's Season 2's thoughts on Ben, circa Episode 2:
Disdainful to Nick "I knew someone like you. He was always screwing up too."
*Giggles at Kenny dismissing Walter, not calling out Kenny for calling Ben a shitbird."
And here's Season 1 Clem on Ben:
He's nice. He's my friend. We don't leave friends behind.
'We don't leave friends behind" only seems to apply to Kenny in Season 2, and that's because the writers were so in love with him. It's because they're a bunch of dudes who really couldn't relate to the experiences of little girls that they wrote Clem as being disdainful of an older girl, and why Jane has to act soulless and shave her head to fit the stereotype of being a masculine 'survivor'. Feminine traits like compassion and non-violence are unacceptable - hence why Jane finds nothing wrong with sacrificing a grieving teenage girl, and why the only homosexual couple (who are never seen together and whose homosexuality was so subtle that it went over my head - and most likely Clem's - during my first playthrough) exist just as props to make Carver seem evil and justify Kenny's rage.
Lee didn't feel important, he felt as much a contributor to the group as any of the other capable characters. Contributions both negative an… mored positive.
Yeah... I'm never gonna forgive myself for letting Lilly back in the R.V. I was actually disappointed Kenny wasn't angrier with Lee/Me. That was the one time I felt like he'd be completely justified in blowing up on me. Dammit Kenny, the one time I count on you to be an asshole to me is the one time you give me a Mulligan on something. =P
And that's a keen observation about Lee not being the center of attention in-universe. Out of universe he's the audiences viewpoint character, but in-universe he's just one of the people part of a group. He doesn't get special treatment because we control him and the other characters won't hesitate to argue or question him. All though S1 is basically his story, he ends up feeling like part of a larger story because of how well made all the other ch… [view original content]
No medical supplies shown to us. Clem can't be running on adrenaline, as she frickin' passed out. There's a token gesture to that when Clem gets knocked over and the wound reopens, but even then it doesn't really matter.
I know Telltale's always been medically inaccurate, but it's particularly egregious in Season 2 where injuries only serve to make characters seem more 'badass'. Carer is unfazed by getting his arm crippled and his teeth blown out, and he gets to spew his tough-guy nonsense during a moment where he should really be screaming in agony. Kenny loses an eye, which only gives him an excuse to act even edgier ("something something brain damage"). Clem gets shot so that we can have a knee-jerk reaction to Arvo - the boy whom Kenny was abusing the entire time, and who the game never allows Clem to properly interact with or call out Kenny on irrationally mistreating - and so we can have a magical transition to the obligatory Lee moment. And the only problem that the cabin survivors seem to see with leaving a wild dog bite untreated overnight is that it will hurt a lot.
* Clem is shot in the SHOULDER. She'd be dead if she was shot in the chest.
* Clementine clearly shows signs of pain throughout Episode 5… more with the gunshot wound (She can't move it much while running as seen in Kenny's ending), and just because she has a wound doesn't mean that she can't hold anything.
God I hated Kenny calling Ben a shitbird again. It's been like, two fucking years, and Kenny was the one who insisted beyond all logic and reason to try and save Ben despite the fact Ben really was just doomed that time. But I hate it even more that he says "For some reason..." It's just such a blatant admission of the writing staff not understanding the first season at all. They don't know why Kenny did what he did then so they'll just conclude Kenny doesn't either. It's complete failure to acknowledge the actual conclusion to Kenny's arc from S1. And ironically they created a scene, likely by accident, that made me better understand S1 Kenny's motivation. When Sarah was trapped under the deck I just wanted to fling Clem down there to make a last stand, consequences be damned.
I also took issue with the survivalist clap trap we get force fed in episodes 3 & 4. And it's all bullshit because they saddle us with a baby right afterwards, probably because the people writing this stuff are clueless to raising babies. "Yeah, right, we've tried nothing at all to help Sarah deal with this shit and we're all out of ideas, so that's a dead end. But hey gang, let's invest FUCKING YEARS to raise a newborn."
If you really buy into this survival of the fittest crap, they should have just chucked AJ into a dumpster. But, hey it'll be cool, Kenny's going to raise AJ to be "tough" by exposing that kid to the freezing night air instead of the fucking fire we had going. That pneumonia is going to make that AJ kid so tough! Here's hoping he doesn't turn out to be not tough like Sarah. Or has a heart condition. Or diabetes. Or one of thousands of possible physical and mental conditions that could hinder him. Otherwise we'll have to ditch him. What's the age cut-off for that again?
Also, who exactly is going to teach this kid his ABC's? And teach him to read? And to add and subtract? Or fucking count even? Kids don't just spontaneously know how to do those things and surprisingly, being able to fucking read, talk and count are probably useful in a survival scenario, if just so you don't mix up canned food with motor oil, which they'll also have teach him. Neither Kenny or Jane really seem like they'd have the patience for that and Clem's fucking eleven. So unless they're just going to raise AJ as some feral wild child it'd probably be nice if there was a single remaining nurturing figure of some kind.
Here's Season 2's thoughts on Ben, circa Episode 2:
Disdainful to Nick "I knew someone like you. He was always screwing up too."
… more
*Giggles at Kenny dismissing Walter, not calling out Kenny for calling Ben a shitbird."
And here's Season 1 Clem on Ben:
He's nice. He's my friend. We don't leave friends behind.
'We don't leave friends behind" only seems to apply to Kenny in Season 2, and that's because the writers were so in love with him. It's because they're a bunch of dudes who really couldn't relate to the experiences of little girls that they wrote Clem as being disdainful of an older girl, and why Jane has to act soulless and shave her head to fit the stereotype of being a masculine 'survivor'. Feminine traits like compassion and non-violence are unacceptable - hence why Jane finds nothing wrong with sacrificing a grieving teenage girl, and why the only homosexual couple (who are never seen together and wh… [view original content]
Kenny quite clearly wanted to kill himself in a way that wouldn't compromise his Christian beliefs - getting himself eaten alive to spare a boy he forgave the same fate. Having him suddenly change his mind and not want to die actually makes his 'sacrifice' a lot more selfish in retrospect.
And yeah, there's so many 'edgy' people on this forum who were debating the moral pros and cons of leaving a baby to die and Telltale's released a comment along the lines of "Season 3 will have Clem be edgy enough to consider that option."
One wonders if they really wanted us to discount Walter as hopeless optimistic, because he's actually quite the wise figure. Here's his speech:
They say the world is over, but I'll tell you a secret: it's not. People are more political now than they ever were before. In the end, we can't change the world. All we can do is continue to learn from each other; to empathize and use our heads (-) In any case, the point is: as long as we have our wits about us, we can always make the right choice. Right?
He's basically given us the premise of the video game. In theory. In practice, I'm not sure if this intention really worked.
Walter's an interesting guy, though, because one gets the sense that he's a lot more cynical about people than he lets on.
Is Nick a good man? Or is he just like everyone else? Is he...just one of those fuckers who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves?![...]This world is hell. People like Matthew aren't coming back. THIS IS IT, AND NOW HE'S GONE!
God I hated Kenny calling Ben a shitbird again. It's been like, two fucking years, and Kenny was the one who insisted beyond all logic and r… moreeason to try and save Ben despite the fact Ben really was just doomed that time. But I hate it even more that he says "For some reason..." It's just such a blatant admission of the writing staff not understanding the first season at all. They don't know why Kenny did what he did then so they'll just conclude Kenny doesn't either. It's complete failure to acknowledge the actual conclusion to Kenny's arc from S1. And ironically they created a scene, likely by accident, that made me better understand S1 Kenny's motivation. When Sarah was trapped under the deck I just wanted to fling Clem down there to make a last stand, consequences be damned.
I also took issue with the survivalist clap trap we get force fed in episodes 3 & 4. And it's all bullshit because they saddle us with a baby right afterwards, … [view original content]
Honestly, I don't like this ending of yours at all. It's fittingly dark, but I don't think Clementine should be killed off yet, scratch that... at all. The character development she's been getting the past two seasons is too good to waste with one accidental gunshot.
All game I'm just thinking why does she seem to have trouble relating to someone like Sarah. Even the nicest options make it seem like Clem is kinda distant from her, when this seems like the kind of person S1 Clem would love to make friends with. A sweet girl who admires and defends Clem who ends up experiencing a lot of the same trauma Clem did in S1. Seemed like they had a lot in common and they'd have no reason to not get along, but you're not really given much chance to emphasize with her as Clem. The reason is probably because a lot of the audience can't directly relate to Sarah, so neither will Clementine now.
I actually thought that the way Clem dealt with Sarah revealed a really interesting aspect of her character this season. S2 Clem doesn't relate well to a person S1 Clem would relate to because S2 Clem hates S1 Clem. You can hear it in the way she crucifies herself for getting Lee killed ("I was stupid and thought I knew what I was doing"), the way she rejects her childish tendencies when speaking with Jane about her past ("It was...stupid kid stuff"), and the way she seems to constantly try to prove herself as an adult to the people around her. Like a lot of kids, she doesn't look back on the child she was before and nostalgically think "Oh, I was so sweet and cute before." She thinks "Man, what a stupid naive kid who was always screwing up." Given this mindset, her relative distance towards Sarah makes a lot of sense and her inability to save her becomes symbolic of her inability to retain her childhood.
Lee didn't feel important, he felt as much a contributor to the group as any of the other capable characters. Contributions both negative an… mored positive.
Yeah... I'm never gonna forgive myself for letting Lilly back in the R.V. I was actually disappointed Kenny wasn't angrier with Lee/Me. That was the one time I felt like he'd be completely justified in blowing up on me. Dammit Kenny, the one time I count on you to be an asshole to me is the one time you give me a Mulligan on something. =P
And that's a keen observation about Lee not being the center of attention in-universe. Out of universe he's the audiences viewpoint character, but in-universe he's just one of the people part of a group. He doesn't get special treatment because we control him and the other characters won't hesitate to argue or question him. All though S1 is basically his story, he ends up feeling like part of a larger story because of how well made all the other ch… [view original content]
And did you catch that he went on to call Arvo a "shitbird" in E5 as well? So yeah, all the fans who defended Kenny calling Ben a shitbird again as a "term on endearment" are wrong. It's his word for "annoying fuck-up," nothing more.
God I hated Kenny calling Ben a shitbird again. It's been like, two fucking years, and Kenny was the one who insisted beyond all logic and r… moreeason to try and save Ben despite the fact Ben really was just doomed that time. But I hate it even more that he says "For some reason..." It's just such a blatant admission of the writing staff not understanding the first season at all. They don't know why Kenny did what he did then so they'll just conclude Kenny doesn't either. It's complete failure to acknowledge the actual conclusion to Kenny's arc from S1. And ironically they created a scene, likely by accident, that made me better understand S1 Kenny's motivation. When Sarah was trapped under the deck I just wanted to fling Clem down there to make a last stand, consequences be damned.
I also took issue with the survivalist clap trap we get force fed in episodes 3 & 4. And it's all bullshit because they saddle us with a baby right afterwards, … [view original content]
But why doesn't she act like that in the prologue then? Where the tiny bit we see of her DOES seem like S1 Clem even though this is AFTER the tragedy with Lee and her parents. Was Omid's death really what pushed into this behavior? Because a random robber appearing out of nowhere in the three seconds she turned around, pales in comparison with the guilt of getting Lee killed on the word of a total stranger just to find her parents who were dead the whole time.
And if her distance with Sarah is because of some kind of deep seated self loathing, why don't we actually see some hints of that outside of passing comments that dismiss her past actions so casually? These comments don't feel like they carry much weight, nor is the one with Kenny in the truck where Clem can suggest Lee maybe shouldn't have saved her. It's a line delivered with the same kind of disinterest she says most of her lines. There's not much to suggest that this part of Clem is really all that important to her or the story being told.
If her guilt of Lee's death is what's motivating her, then they should have had Clem bring it up in some actually meaningful context at some point, with some actual emotion behind it. No just as determinately part of her backstory at times. The best place would be after the trailer park. Have Clem get mad at Sarah for running off like she did and doing something "stupid". Let Clem rant at the grieving girl for a time until she finally let's it slip it's really herself she's angry with. Bitterly yelling:
"Why?! Why did you do that?! Why did you have to run off and be stupid?! Why would you leave everybody when you knew that mom and dad were dead?!"
Sarah would ask why she mentioned her mom just now and Clem can either confess her own insecurities or just keep them bottled up as part of her inability to relate to others anymore. If Sarah actually died in the trailer park, Clem could recite a more bitter version of that dialogue in front of Luke and Jane. And when they ask about the mom comment, Clem can reveal she feels like she deserved to die for what she did, or regrets she didn't give Sarah the same chance that Lee gave her, or her leaving Sarah was her fulfilling a deep seated desire to see Lee abandon her for her perceived mistakes. Just give us fucking something here that suggests Clem has any actual character outside of what we choose for her anymore.
As for Sarah's death representing Clem's inability to hold onto her childhood, I call bullshit. As you pointed out, Clem never seems to have any interest in interacting with Sarah a a child, and she dismisses her past behavior with a very "Meh, whatever" tone. To me, it seems like her childhood was already dead and buried after the time skip . If someone as disarming as Sarah actually got Clem to loosen up, and they played a game together or did a tiny bit of "stupid kid stuff", and then Sarah died, okay. She got a little taste of her past life, but it was immediately stamped out again upon facing the horrors of the world. A cruel reminder that those days are over.
You could even set it up like that before Sarah's death. The night after her dad hits her and Reggie is murdered in front of her, Clem could offer to do something with her to cheer her up, and Sarah is so shaken by what's happened that she's lost all interest in such things. Reflecting Clem's own lost childhood. Then to highlight the difference between Clem and Sarah, flip it the other way after her Carlos dies. Sarah's trauma is so severe, her mind so broken by everything she's seen in the last two days, she devolves into a impenetrable state of denial.
In the time after the trailer park she wanders around the area in kind of a trance, doing childish things like picking flowers, climbing on that statue, reading the info displays like everything's fine, completely oblivious to severity of the situation. If you try to talk to her about what happen she either pretends not to hear you or just changes the subject. When the walkers come if you don't have Mike grab Sarah she just strolls over them thinking their people and gets eaten. If Mike drags her along, then she wanders out on the deck during the chaos and starts looking through the telescopes before it collapses.
Again, ANYTHING to punctate these sloppy, poorly constructed, possibly even nonexistent story threads. Sarah's actual deaths as they stand have nothing to do with her being childish. The second one is 100% bad luck. She gets stuck in a situation completely beyond her control, and only because of where she happened to be standing at time. If Jane had been standing in her place, miss badass lone wolf would be fucking dead meat. And despite what some people assert, Sarah freaking out over Carlos's death really isn't so much childish as typical behavior for everyone in this fucking series!
The same time she's screaming for her dad, Kenny, someone well over twice her age, very much not sheltered from the worst parts of the world, and has actually dealt with similar horrible trauma before, well stop for a fucking soliloquy over Sarita in the middle of the herd. While Sarah is locked in a trailer and won't talk to anyone, Kenny's hold up in a tent and refuses to see anymore. Sarah stammers on about going back to the cabin with her dad, while Kenny talks about how awesome being beaten to death is. And when the walkers come, Sarah is actually the first to spot them, while Kenny runs INTO them so he can repeatedly beat one long after killing it.
I appreciate you're trying to find some actual meaning in S2's story, but if it was there we wouldn't have to fill in the blanks like this. We could just be discussing the implications and significance of it instead of trying to guess what if anything any of it means. Odds are Sarah was just conceived as a friend to kill off in front of Clem by Nick Breckon, and the writers of episodes 3 & 4 didn't like her so her issues were used to make Clem look tougher by comparison, completely ignoring any significant story payoff her character may have had outside of reminding us "Clem's tough." =P
All game I'm just thinking why does she seem to have trouble relating to someone like Sarah. Even the nicest options make it seem like Clem … moreis kinda distant from her, when this seems like the kind of person S1 Clem would love to make friends with. A sweet girl who admires and defends Clem who ends up experiencing a lot of the same trauma Clem did in S1. Seemed like they had a lot in common and they'd have no reason to not get along, but you're not really given much chance to emphasize with her as Clem. The reason is probably because a lot of the audience can't directly relate to Sarah, so neither will Clementine now.
I actually thought that the way Clem dealt with Sarah revealed a really interesting aspect of her character this season. S2 Clem doesn't relate well to a person S1 Clem would relate to because S2 Clem hates S1 Clem. You can hear it in the way she crucifies herself for getting Lee killed ("I was stupid and thought I knew w… [view original content]
Was Omid's death really what pushed into this behavior? Because a random robber appearing out of nowhere in the three seconds she turned around, pales in comparison with the guilt of getting Lee killed on the word of a total stranger just to find her parents who were dead the whole time.
I feel like getting a second guardian figure killed because of a mistake on one's part would be much worse than getting one guardian figure killed, yeah. She might have been able to forgive herself for a single mistake as a onetime thing, but when it happens again in such short time frame, it makes sense that it would cause her to take that as confirmation that the blame for both incidents should be place squarely on her own shoulders. Not to mention that following Lee's death, she would have had a cheerful Omid and Christa there to reassure her that it wasn't her fault, whereas after Omid's death, she's left with only a bitter woman grieving over her husband and (at some point) child.
And if her distance with Sarah is because of some kind of deep seated self loathing, why don't we actually see some hints of that outside of passing comments that dismiss her past actions so casually?
I suppose that they wanted to keep things a bit more subtle as far as that was concerned. Frankly, having a two "Freudian slip" moments (including Kenny's "Duck" slip-up) would have seemed a little hammy and inauthentic. I'm not saying that Clem should explicitly acknowledge that Sarah = S1 Clem. I'm saying that it's more of a subconscious impetus for her general attitude towards Sarah. Clem can either be nice but firm in trying to push this childish and naive kid to get to where she is or she can outright reject her as someone who would only get other people killed. Either approach demonstrates some level of aversion that Clem has to her past self, with the first being indicative of a desire to correct her past and the second being indicative of a desire to obliterate it. That being said, I agree with you that I would have liked to see more exploration and even resolution of her guilt.
As for Sarah's death representing Clem's inability to hold onto her childhood, I call bullshit...To me, it seems like her childhood was already dead and buried after the time skip.
I was largely referring to the approach that Clem can take towards Sarah's death, particularly in the trailer scene. She can either fight tooth and nail to preserve this sweet and innocent but ultimately troublesome entity or she can see that abandoning that entity is the right thing to do to save herself.
And despite what some people assert, Sarah freaking out over Carlos's death really isn't so much childish as typical behavior for everyone in this fucking series!...While Sarah is locked in a trailer and won't talk to anyone, Kenny's hold up in a tent and refuses to see anymore.
Well the difference here is that Kenny eventually does respond to reason. You can talk him into getting up and doing what needs to be done (or he eventually talks himself into doing it). With Sarah, you can say whatever the hell you want, she still doesn't budge until you physically slap her to snap her out of it. And what she says isn't "leave me alone," it's "I can't" and "I'm scared," which are childish utterances.
But why doesn't she act like that in the prologue then? Where the tiny bit we see of her DOES seem like S1 Clem even though this is AFTER th… moree tragedy with Lee and her parents. Was Omid's death really what pushed into this behavior? Because a random robber appearing out of nowhere in the three seconds she turned around, pales in comparison with the guilt of getting Lee killed on the word of a total stranger just to find her parents who were dead the whole time.
And if her distance with Sarah is because of some kind of deep seated self loathing, why don't we actually see some hints of that outside of passing comments that dismiss her past actions so casually? These comments don't feel like they carry much weight, nor is the one with Kenny in the truck where Clem can suggest Lee maybe shouldn't have saved her. It's a line delivered with the same kind of disinterest she says most of her lines. There's not much to suggest that this part of Clem… [view original content]
When Jane and Kenny are on the ground both try to grab hold of the gun. In doing so they accidentally pull the trigger and the bullet hits Clementine.
Oddly enough, while that fight was going on, I was hoping for an ultimatum. Like if Clementine steps in front of Kenny and Jane, she can place her gun up to her head and demand they stop their quarrel immediately.
They were both fighting each other cause they thought the other one dying would benefit Clementine (to varying degree's). It'd throw a hell of a kink in both of their plans if she used what little bit of power she had by using death as an incentive to salvage what was left in the trio.
I feel like getting a second guardian figure killed because of a mistake on one's part would be much worse than getting one guardian figure killed, yeah.
Then why does she mention Lee and being stupid and not Omid and being stupid? She doesn't mention Omid once after Christa is gone. If that was the trigger for her mental collapse, it should have come up at least once. She doesn't even mention him when Kenny is thinking of baby names.
And really, her terrible mistake that got Omid killed was not picking up her gun before walking three fucking feet to pick up a bottle while her two supposedly responsible parental figures slipped off for some action. Christa tells Lee it was stupid for Lee and Clem to barge into a dark building, then let's Clem do exactly that, alone! They couldn't even bother to clear the room for her first.
That's a world of difference from Clem having secret talks with a stranger about everything you do and then believing him when he says he has her parents and going against the advice of the man whose safeguarded her for several months and a second adult who thinks it's a bad idea... and getting jumped because your adoptive mom and dad believe fucking is more important than their kid's safety.
Clem can either be nice but firm in trying to push this childish and naive kid to get to where she is or she can outright reject her as someone who would only get other people killed.
Yeah that's another issue, this whole idea that Sarah's dangerous. They never really did sell me on that. How many people did she get killed? Reggie? Because Carver himself says he was done with Reggie. Sarita? That whole horde scene is such a clusterfuck I can't tell who was where. I just remember Bonnie shooting a machine gun and for some reason the Walkers go after Clem and not her. What does that leave? The trailer park? Well they could and possibly will leave her, that's their call.
Oh, and again, these are all things are Lord and Savior Kenny does. Already covered the dual herd time wasting freak outs and self-isolation possibly suicidal episodes they both go through. Sarah sucking at her work isn't quite as bad as Kenny REFUSING to work and even starting a fight with Mike over it. Not to mention trying to escape upon arrival. Love how Troy doesn't actually care all that much that Kenny is walking around with hands free. Welcome to Howe's, where little girls are beaten for speaking out of turn but dangerous assholes trying to escape and starting fights are given multiple free passes before finally being punished!
Really, Sarah seems like she's only potentially a danger to herself, in that she has a very hard time with all these situations. Even then, as long someone is helping her, she seems like she's willing to keep going. She's clearly scared shitless going through the herd but she keeps going until Carlos gets shot, then she somehow sprints through unbitten! Clem can determinately due nearly as much stupid shit. Like cut off Sarita's arm in the middle of the herd, shoot Rebecca during a tense stand off causing a shoot out, break through thin ice and fall into a frozen lake. She can also fuck with the bars in Howe's and get Reggie into trouble too.
I was largely referring to the approach that Clem can take towards Sarah's death, particularly in the trailer scene. She can either fight tooth and nail to preserve this sweet and innocent but ultimately troublesome entity or she can see that abandoning that entity is the right thing to do to save herself.
Again, Sarah's innocence isn't what's making her act that way, it's her grief and if you do save her, then she dies in a way that had nothing to do with her or Clem's character or anything to with grief or innocence. And again, this completely contradicts all the horsesshit about trying to save Kenny who is very obviously becoming a violent lunatic who does stupid and/or insane shit left and right. Or raising AJ, who is literally helpless and requires years of constant care. Why is it Clem leaving Sarah can be treated as the right thing to do, but shooting Kenny is horrible tragedy and leaving AJ isn't even an option?
Well the difference here is that Kenny eventually does respond to reason.
KENNY MURDERS A WOMAN ON WHO CLAIMS SHE LOST A BABY ACCIDENT! The fact Jane was lying (and fucking stupid herself) is irrelevant because Kenny didn't know that. This is after constantly beating a kid, possibly threatening to beat Clem, yelling and screaming at everyone who makes reasonable suggestions like "Let's not drive through a blizzard in the middle of the night" and "Let's resupply before looking for somewhere that may not exist." Kenny eventually becomes unreasonable personified, only finally seeing reason after getting a bullet, or murdering a woman.
The difference was Kenny was given more time to deal with his grief. He doesn't see reason until the SAME TIME Sarah potentially returns. And he laters goes on to fucking murder someone after driving off everyone else. What Sarah would have done is she had more than a few hours to come to terms with what happened is up in the air. But what little clues we do have did point to the possibility of recovery. After getting slapped (again) she doesn't lock up again. When the walkers come she runs with the others for safety (while Kenny runs to them). She's still in denial about her father's death, but that's the first stage of grief. Curious to how she would respond to AJ. At the very least, I don't think she would have stabbed anyone to death over him.
And what she says isn't "leave me alone," it's "I can't" and "I'm scared," which are childish utterances.
No, just no. Leave me alone is THE call of someone childishly not wanting to deal with problems. It's a phrase uttered by every teenager slamming their door on their parents when they aren't ready to deal with something that's bothering them. There's no shame in admitting you're afraid of something, or that you think you're going to fail. It'd be far more childish to be afraid, and lie about it so people won't think you're afraid.
Nothing about S2 pisses me off more than this sick and ultimately fucking stupid viewpoint that to "survive" you have to be a stupid selfish asshole, who never listens to anyone, does whatever the fuck they want, and you'll never suffer any consequences for it. It's the kind of thinking that would have left Clementine to die in S1, and ironically, probably gotten Lee killed much sooner as well.
And if this is the character Clem is suppose to be, which I actually AGREE with you is what the writers want her to be, she's not only a dumb bitch, she's a fucking hypocrite to boot. Because the only reason she ever survived to begin with was a man took care of her for MONTHS and only after that, did he reluctantly teach her some basic ways to defend herself, and as only in case he couldn't get be there to help her. And that only happened because Chuck helped Lee to see the pressing need to help Clementine more than already was.
You're right, S2 Clem would and probably does hate S1 Clem, and she's a fucking idiot for doing so. Because needing help is not a sign of weakness, it's admission of your own shortcomings, which takes bravery to admit to, just like when Clem asked Sarah for help when her arm was cut. Clem showed a lot more courage there, asking for help from a total stranger, then constantly brow beating Sarah for mistakes Clem has made herself in the past.
It's hard to trust people. It's hard to set aside your own pride. It's hard to confess you're afraid, or you don't know what to do. But it's easy to just lie about it though, or pretend like you don't have a problem, or just push people away. And it's those things that'll make you weaker. Because you won't learn from your mistakes, you won't deal with your problems, and when you won't have anyone to pick you up when you inevitably fall at some point.
Clem only survives BOTH seasons because of the constant help of others. Just in season two, Christa watches her for over a year, and teaches her to sew up a wound. Pete and Luke save Clem in the forest. Sarah gives her the antiseptic she needed. Luke gives her something to eat, as does Walter. Jane teaches her ways to overcome her size disadvantage, and saves them from the Russians, and jumps into a frozen lake to save Clem yet again if she breaks the ice. And there is no shame in any of this, because the only way she'll ever get stronger is with the help of others, just like the only way AJ will ever grow is with the care of others.
And if you still don't believe me, answer me this, why is Alone Ending the shortest one? The one where we see Clem smear some dead crap on herself and a baby then walks into a swarm of the dead? And that's the whole ending. It's because there's no way to spin doctor her situation as anything other than fucked. Because she's weaker than she's ever been. And this time, when she falls, and she will, there's no one left to pick her up, then there will be no one left to pick up AJ, all because Clem resents that she ever needed help from anyone...
Was Omid's death really what pushed into this behavior? Because a random robber appearing out of nowhere in the three seconds she turned aro… moreund, pales in comparison with the guilt of getting Lee killed on the word of a total stranger just to find her parents who were dead the whole time.
I feel like getting a second guardian figure killed because of a mistake on one's part would be much worse than getting one guardian figure killed, yeah. She might have been able to forgive herself for a single mistake as a onetime thing, but when it happens again in such short time frame, it makes sense that it would cause her to take that as confirmation that the blame for both incidents should be place squarely on her own shoulders. Not to mention that following Lee's death, she would have had a cheerful Omid and Christa there to reassure her that it wasn't her fault, whereas after Omid's death, she's left with only a bitter woman grieving over her… [view original content]
Then why does she mention Lee and being stupid and not Omid and being stupid? She doesn't mention Omid once after Christa is gone.
Well for one, because Luke asks about Lee, not Omid. But in saying how stupid she was with Lee, she says "Sometimes people die because it," which seems to refer to more than just Lee. And I'm not saying that she was just as guilty in Omid's death as she was in Lee's (I don't think she's to blame for either death, actually), I'm saying that her involvement in Omid's death would have exacerbated any prior guilt she had over Lee's death. Say I accidentally hit someone with my car and then, shortly afterwards, get into another accident. That second accident going to make it pretty damn hard to look back on that first accident and not think it was my fault, because I was the common thread.
What does that leave? The trailer park? Well they could and possibly will leave her, that's their call.
Well that's exactly the point, isn't it? She's only dangerous insofar as people care about her and try to save her. Same with S1 Clem. People died trying to save her from her own mistakes. And she hates that.
Again, Sarah's innocence isn't what's making her act that way, it's her grief
It's not just grief, it's fear. She's afraid to face the world alone, without the help of her dad, so she just refuses to and instead just curls up into a little ball and dies. That's childishness. It's perfectly understandable childishness given her circumstances, but it's still childishness.
Why is it Clem leaving Sarah can be treated as the right thing to do, but shooting Kenny is horrible tragedy and leaving AJ isn't even an option?
I actually thought that the game did paint killing Kenny was the right thing to do (doesn't he actually say as much himself?). As for AJ, I think it's pretty clear that the whole point of the season is to give Clem a baby to care for so they certainly weren't going to let us abandon him.
Kenny eventually becomes unreasonable personified, only finally seeing reason after getting a bullet, or murdering a woman.
I thought we were just talking about the scenes where they were initially unresponsive, not the lasting effects of their trauma. Kenny is fucked up, yes. I am in no way defending how fucked up he is. But when he's grieving over his wife's body and Mike tells him they have to go, he goes. When he wants nothing more than to wallow in his own self-pity and someone needs his help to deliver a baby, he helps. That's what I meant by "respond to reason." But, in fact, Jane does use the same arguments to get the Clem to leave Kenny as she did for getting Clem to leave Sarah.
No, just no. Leave me alone is THE call of someone childishly not wanting to deal with problems. It's a phrase uttered by every teenager slamming their door on their parents when they aren't ready to deal with something that's bothering them. There's no shame in admitting you're afraid of something, or that you think you're going to fail. It'd be far more childish to be afraid, and lie about it so people won't think you're afraid.
I think this largely depends on the context. In terms of grieving of a lost loved, one "leave me alone" seems a pretty reasonable thing to say. I wouldn't call that childish. And while admitting that you're afraid or that you think you will fail to do something isn't childish, it is childish to be paralyzed by that fact you're afraid or the belief that you'll fail, which is what Sarah was doing. Like a little fledgling who won't leave the nest even as the branch crashes down.
And if this is the character Clem is suppose to be, which I actually AGREE with you is what the writers want her to be, she's not only a dumb bitch, she's a fucking hypocrite to boot.
Well, she's a hypocrite if you choose the cold, selfish options. If you choose the options that have you helping other people when they most need it, you have a character who hates weakness and helplessness because she knows from her own experience that it causes other people to die, but still can't bring herself to abandon those who are weak and helpless. You have a character who forces herself to be self-reliant, but will still shoulder the burdens of others. That's actually a pretty admirable disposition to me.
I feel like getting a second guardian figure killed because of a mistake on one's part would be much worse than getting one guardian figure … morekilled, yeah.
Then why does she mention Lee and being stupid and not Omid and being stupid? She doesn't mention Omid once after Christa is gone. If that was the trigger for her mental collapse, it should have come up at least once. She doesn't even mention him when Kenny is thinking of baby names.
And really, her terrible mistake that got Omid killed was not picking up her gun before walking three fucking feet to pick up a bottle while her two supposedly responsible parental figures slipped off for some action. Christa tells Lee it was stupid for Lee and Clem to barge into a dark building, then let's Clem do exactly that, alone! They couldn't even bother to clear the room for her first.
That's a world of difference from Clem having secret talks with a stranger about everything you do and the… [view original content]
It was more of the shoulder than the chest. And Kenny was already hurt by Jane's knife, causing him to bleed heavily. The gunshot caused him to lose more blood, so he died from blood loss.
Then why does she mention Lee and being stupid and not Omid and being stupid? She doesn't mention Omid once after Christa is gone.
W… moreell for one, because Luke asks about Lee, not Omid. But in saying how stupid she was with Lee, she says "Sometimes people die because it," which seems to refer to more than just Lee. And I'm not saying that she was just as guilty in Omid's death as she was in Lee's (I don't think she's to blame for either death, actually), I'm saying that her involvement in Omid's death would have exacerbated any prior guilt she had over Lee's death. Say I accidentally hit someone with my car and then, shortly afterwards, get into another accident. That second accident going to make it pretty damn hard to look back on that first accident and not think it was my fault, because I was the common thread.
What does that leave? The trailer park? Well they could and possibly will leave her, that's their call.
Well … [view original content]
I feel like getting a second guardian figure killed because of a mistake on one's part would be much worse than getting one guardian figure … morekilled, yeah.
Then why does she mention Lee and being stupid and not Omid and being stupid? She doesn't mention Omid once after Christa is gone. If that was the trigger for her mental collapse, it should have come up at least once. She doesn't even mention him when Kenny is thinking of baby names.
And really, her terrible mistake that got Omid killed was not picking up her gun before walking three fucking feet to pick up a bottle while her two supposedly responsible parental figures slipped off for some action. Christa tells Lee it was stupid for Lee and Clem to barge into a dark building, then let's Clem do exactly that, alone! They couldn't even bother to clear the room for her first.
That's a world of difference from Clem having secret talks with a stranger about everything you do and the… [view original content]
Any baby or AJ in particular? You should care about babies because they're human lives that need your help to live. AJ in particular also has the added benefit of being cared about by people whom you potentially care about and entrusted to you by them, so there's a sort of transitive property thing going on.
She also tells them both to be smart about it. Scan the area and be looking in different places from each other so you can be more aware of your surroundings. Also avoid buildings like that train station...
I'm starting to wonder if anyone who wrote for S2 actually played S1. Maybe they just watched a Let's Play of a Pro-Kenny play through. =P
Interesting tid bit of information:
If you go talk to Christa after she finds you and Clem in the train station she will tell you she agrees with you and she needs to learn.
Isn't that precisely what Omid and Christa did? Scan the area outside from afar before approaching and then send Clem into one restroom while they went to another?
She also tells them both to be smart about it. Scan the area and be looking in different places from each other so you can be more aware of … moreyour surroundings. Also avoid buildings like that train station...
I'm starting to wonder if anyone who wrote for S2 actually played S1. Maybe they just watched a Let's Play of a Pro-Kenny play through. =P
Comments
Telltale, hire Jaded x Gamer right now.
A little girl shrugs off getting shot in the chest.
A grown man - one who survived getting his eye beaten into oblivion - is killed by a gut shot.
Problem, Telltale?
Understandable. But there is a silver lining to enduring. In one case (literal, not this very interesting and abstract idea) she ends up in Wellington. Where she can, theoretically, be happy, loved, and taught (etc.). Your idea on it being "less depressing" could be applied if she were to decide to kill herself after coming to terms with not wanting to live anymore, but I find that extremely depressing, also. Of course I don't enjoy the thought of her walking around unsafe, lonely, sad, etc anymore, but the thought of her dying alone in a place she dislikes also doesn't please me. Of course, neither of these endings are bad for the particular reason they are sad, just that I find her being dead as more sad vs her being in a somewhat safe place surrounded by people she could enjoy and such.
Umm... you know, realism, and anyone can die, and uhh....
FLASH BOMB
...is he gone?
I just REALLY don't want to think about what's going to happen in Season 3. If they're going to time skip again and suggest Clem is just drifting aimlessly for years until the next zombie cliche crops up for her to fight through. She needs some kind of motivation at this point. But I doubt they're going to give it to her. So really I'm more comfortable with her dying at this point then just being used as a generic video game protagonist with all her character stripped away. What's the point in keeping her alive if all she's gonna do is just kill more zombies. Freakin' anyone can do that. =/
It was more of the shoulder than the chest. And Kenny was already hurt by Jane's knife, causing him to bleed heavily. The gunshot caused him to lose more blood, so he died from blood loss.
When rereading my stance it comes to my attention that the fact I would like the scenario of season two's ending and events compared to your idea probably speaks negatively about season two. The fact that I would so eagerly, and without hesitation, prefer her to go through all of these horrible trials that should scar her and leave her mind a barren waste leads me to believe that season two actually did a shitty job of making me feel anything for the events.
I was speaking specifically for her character and not the implications to the story by choosing one or the other. Which I see as a happier ending for her, not which I would actually prefer to happen for the sake of story or which one is better. (Simply stated: I prefer yours for good, tragic story, I prefer theirs if it was real.)
I truly hope they take the advise of fans like you and revert to their original style of story telling. I absolutely hate that they threw away so much of her just so the player feels capable and like they are so important to the group/story/plot/etc. Lee didn't feel important, he felt as much a contributor to the group as any of the other capable characters. Contributions both negative and positive. I don't come to this game for feats of strength and glory, especially from the body of what should be a fairly unremarkable, but still above average 11 year old girl.
To summarize our "disagreement" I completely agree with you on all the points you stated. I just feel her dying is more sad than her literal endings in season 2. While I definitely prefer her dying than her literal endings in season 2.
Yeah... I'm never gonna forgive myself for letting Lilly back in the R.V. I was actually disappointed Kenny wasn't angrier with Lee/Me. That was the one time I felt like he'd be completely justified in blowing up on me. Dammit Kenny, the one time I count on you to be an asshole to me is the one time you give me a Mulligan on something. =P
And that's a keen observation about Lee not being the center of attention in-universe. Out of universe he's the audiences viewpoint character, but in-universe he's just one of the people part of a group. He doesn't get special treatment because we control him and the other characters won't hesitate to argue or question him. All though S1 is basically his story, he ends up feeling like part of a larger story because of how well made all the other characters were. It's exemplified in his actual death. His death both serves as the natural conclusion to his story, and also demonstrates his story wasn't the only being told in this world.
S2 makes the same mistake a lot of poor sequels makes, which is to inflate the importance of things that should only be important to the audience. Clementine is just some girl who was given a five minute firearms lesson and some basic encouragement and advice on survival after a magic hobo talked to man who took care of her. She was a fascinating character that we all loved, but in the world she inhabits she's just some scared kid trying to survive. But that's not how she's treated in most of S2.
After her arm is sewn up pretty much everything revolves around her. Everyone suddenly trusts her, everyone comes to her for advice, she has to do everything, the fucking main villain treats her as his greatest foe despite only meeting her briefly one time and she's done nothing to foil him as of yet, the supposed silent loner Jane suddenly has to imprint on Clem, and she's supposedly the only one can reach Kenny despite there never really being much evidence that they had any kind of actual relationship in S1 other than he was one of the adults who may have protected her. These things only happen to her because she's important to the audience.
And for me it's hard to feel for S2 Clem because she seems like a different person really after the big time skip. And since we get no clue what happened during it other than maybe Christa being angry at Clementine, nor do we see the aftermath of the devastating events of the first season since the prologue jumps over that, it's hard for me to apply feelings I had for her in season one to her season two counterpart. Without seeing the actual transformation between these two versions of her it's just confusing.
All game I'm just thinking why does she seem to have trouble relating to someone like Sarah. Even the nicest options make it seem like Clem is kinda distant from her, when this seems like the kind of person S1 Clem would love to make friends with. A sweet girl who admires and defends Clem who ends up experiencing a lot of the same trauma Clem did in S1. Seemed like they had a lot in common and they'd have no reason to not get along, but you're not really given much chance to emphasize with her as Clem. The reason is probably because a lot of the audience can't directly relate to Sarah, so neither will Clementine now.
Again, it's complete 180 from the first season. Where Clementine often would influence the player. A lot of people are hot to kill Ben, unless Clementine speaks up, then it's like "Oh...well now I don't feel so good about this.", including Christa. A lot of people don't like or relate to Ben, but seeing Clem stand up for him makes them reconsider a little. Come S2, her character is defined by audience expectations. If you like don't Sarah, then right at the start of In Harm's Way you can have Clem go off on a bizarre rant about how much she hates listening to Sarah pee for the unspeakable crime of her trying to politely thank Clem.
The endings don't engage me because it feels like they're just written for the audience. Pick whatever you want for Clem, her character will adapt to fit your personal preference. I'd rather she had died true to her character than just being completely defined by the audience. =/
Clem is shot in the SHOULDER. She'd be dead if she was shot in the chest.
Clementine clearly shows signs of pain throughout Episode 5 with the gunshot wound (She can't move it much while running as seen in Kenny's ending), and just because she has a wound doesn't mean that she can't hold anything.
Here's Season 2's thoughts on Ben, circa Episode 2:
*Giggles at Kenny dismissing Walter, not calling out Kenny for calling Ben a shitbird."
And here's Season 1 Clem on Ben:
'We don't leave friends behind" only seems to apply to Kenny in Season 2, and that's because the writers were so in love with him. It's because they're a bunch of dudes who really couldn't relate to the experiences of little girls that they wrote Clem as being disdainful of an older girl, and why Jane has to act soulless and shave her head to fit the stereotype of being a masculine 'survivor'. Feminine traits like compassion and non-violence are unacceptable - hence why Jane finds nothing wrong with sacrificing a grieving teenage girl, and why the only homosexual couple (who are never seen together and whose homosexuality was so subtle that it went over my head - and most likely Clem's - during my first playthrough) exist just as props to make Carver seem evil and justify Kenny's rage.
No medical supplies shown to us. Clem can't be running on adrenaline, as she frickin' passed out. There's a token gesture to that when Clem gets knocked over and the wound reopens, but even then it doesn't really matter.
I know Telltale's always been medically inaccurate, but it's particularly egregious in Season 2 where injuries only serve to make characters seem more 'badass'. Carer is unfazed by getting his arm crippled and his teeth blown out, and he gets to spew his tough-guy nonsense during a moment where he should really be screaming in agony. Kenny loses an eye, which only gives him an excuse to act even edgier ("something something brain damage"). Clem gets shot so that we can have a knee-jerk reaction to Arvo - the boy whom Kenny was abusing the entire time, and who the game never allows Clem to properly interact with or call out Kenny on irrationally mistreating - and so we can have a magical transition to the obligatory Lee moment. And the only problem that the cabin survivors seem to see with leaving a wild dog bite untreated overnight is that it will hurt a lot.
That's all right... But then what would happen maybe would be Kenny blames Jane for Clem AND AJ's death and shoots her then leaves.
God I hated Kenny calling Ben a shitbird again. It's been like, two fucking years, and Kenny was the one who insisted beyond all logic and reason to try and save Ben despite the fact Ben really was just doomed that time. But I hate it even more that he says "For some reason..." It's just such a blatant admission of the writing staff not understanding the first season at all. They don't know why Kenny did what he did then so they'll just conclude Kenny doesn't either. It's complete failure to acknowledge the actual conclusion to Kenny's arc from S1. And ironically they created a scene, likely by accident, that made me better understand S1 Kenny's motivation. When Sarah was trapped under the deck I just wanted to fling Clem down there to make a last stand, consequences be damned.
I also took issue with the survivalist clap trap we get force fed in episodes 3 & 4. And it's all bullshit because they saddle us with a baby right afterwards, probably because the people writing this stuff are clueless to raising babies. "Yeah, right, we've tried nothing at all to help Sarah deal with this shit and we're all out of ideas, so that's a dead end. But hey gang, let's invest FUCKING YEARS to raise a newborn."
If you really buy into this survival of the fittest crap, they should have just chucked AJ into a dumpster. But, hey it'll be cool, Kenny's going to raise AJ to be "tough" by exposing that kid to the freezing night air instead of the fucking fire we had going. That pneumonia is going to make that AJ kid so tough! Here's hoping he doesn't turn out to be not tough like Sarah. Or has a heart condition. Or diabetes. Or one of thousands of possible physical and mental conditions that could hinder him. Otherwise we'll have to ditch him. What's the age cut-off for that again?
Also, who exactly is going to teach this kid his ABC's? And teach him to read? And to add and subtract? Or fucking count even? Kids don't just spontaneously know how to do those things and surprisingly, being able to fucking read, talk and count are probably useful in a survival scenario, if just so you don't mix up canned food with motor oil, which they'll also have teach him. Neither Kenny or Jane really seem like they'd have the patience for that and Clem's fucking eleven. So unless they're just going to raise AJ as some feral wild child it'd probably be nice if there was a single remaining nurturing figure of some kind.
Kenny quite clearly wanted to kill himself in a way that wouldn't compromise his Christian beliefs - getting himself eaten alive to spare a boy he forgave the same fate. Having him suddenly change his mind and not want to die actually makes his 'sacrifice' a lot more selfish in retrospect.
And yeah, there's so many 'edgy' people on this forum who were debating the moral pros and cons of leaving a baby to die and Telltale's released a comment along the lines of "Season 3 will have Clem be edgy enough to consider that option."
One wonders if they really wanted us to discount Walter as hopeless optimistic, because he's actually quite the wise figure. Here's his speech:
He's basically given us the premise of the video game. In theory. In practice, I'm not sure if this intention really worked.
Walter's an interesting guy, though, because one gets the sense that he's a lot more cynical about people than he lets on.
Honestly, I don't like this ending of yours at all. It's fittingly dark, but I don't think Clementine should be killed off yet, scratch that... at all. The character development she's been getting the past two seasons is too good to waste with one accidental gunshot.
And then he undergoes depression v.3 again and then joins another group, kill all of them over time and so on.
Clementine death should be lot more original that this.
She should die right after her 27th birthday, after having suprising one night stand with creepiest char in the game... ah wait, that was Luke!
I actually thought that the way Clem dealt with Sarah revealed a really interesting aspect of her character this season. S2 Clem doesn't relate well to a person S1 Clem would relate to because S2 Clem hates S1 Clem. You can hear it in the way she crucifies herself for getting Lee killed ("I was stupid and thought I knew what I was doing"), the way she rejects her childish tendencies when speaking with Jane about her past ("It was...stupid kid stuff"), and the way she seems to constantly try to prove herself as an adult to the people around her. Like a lot of kids, she doesn't look back on the child she was before and nostalgically think "Oh, I was so sweet and cute before." She thinks "Man, what a stupid naive kid who was always screwing up." Given this mindset, her relative distance towards Sarah makes a lot of sense and her inability to save her becomes symbolic of her inability to retain her childhood.
And did you catch that he went on to call Arvo a "shitbird" in E5 as well? So yeah, all the fans who defended Kenny calling Ben a shitbird again as a "term on endearment" are wrong. It's his word for "annoying fuck-up," nothing more.
But why doesn't she act like that in the prologue then? Where the tiny bit we see of her DOES seem like S1 Clem even though this is AFTER the tragedy with Lee and her parents. Was Omid's death really what pushed into this behavior? Because a random robber appearing out of nowhere in the three seconds she turned around, pales in comparison with the guilt of getting Lee killed on the word of a total stranger just to find her parents who were dead the whole time.
And if her distance with Sarah is because of some kind of deep seated self loathing, why don't we actually see some hints of that outside of passing comments that dismiss her past actions so casually? These comments don't feel like they carry much weight, nor is the one with Kenny in the truck where Clem can suggest Lee maybe shouldn't have saved her. It's a line delivered with the same kind of disinterest she says most of her lines. There's not much to suggest that this part of Clem is really all that important to her or the story being told.
If her guilt of Lee's death is what's motivating her, then they should have had Clem bring it up in some actually meaningful context at some point, with some actual emotion behind it. No just as determinately part of her backstory at times. The best place would be after the trailer park. Have Clem get mad at Sarah for running off like she did and doing something "stupid". Let Clem rant at the grieving girl for a time until she finally let's it slip it's really herself she's angry with. Bitterly yelling:
"Why?! Why did you do that?! Why did you have to run off and be stupid?! Why would you leave everybody when you knew that mom and dad were dead?!"
Sarah would ask why she mentioned her mom just now and Clem can either confess her own insecurities or just keep them bottled up as part of her inability to relate to others anymore. If Sarah actually died in the trailer park, Clem could recite a more bitter version of that dialogue in front of Luke and Jane. And when they ask about the mom comment, Clem can reveal she feels like she deserved to die for what she did, or regrets she didn't give Sarah the same chance that Lee gave her, or her leaving Sarah was her fulfilling a deep seated desire to see Lee abandon her for her perceived mistakes. Just give us fucking something here that suggests Clem has any actual character outside of what we choose for her anymore.
As for Sarah's death representing Clem's inability to hold onto her childhood, I call bullshit. As you pointed out, Clem never seems to have any interest in interacting with Sarah a a child, and she dismisses her past behavior with a very "Meh, whatever" tone. To me, it seems like her childhood was already dead and buried after the time skip . If someone as disarming as Sarah actually got Clem to loosen up, and they played a game together or did a tiny bit of "stupid kid stuff", and then Sarah died, okay. She got a little taste of her past life, but it was immediately stamped out again upon facing the horrors of the world. A cruel reminder that those days are over.
You could even set it up like that before Sarah's death. The night after her dad hits her and Reggie is murdered in front of her, Clem could offer to do something with her to cheer her up, and Sarah is so shaken by what's happened that she's lost all interest in such things. Reflecting Clem's own lost childhood. Then to highlight the difference between Clem and Sarah, flip it the other way after her Carlos dies. Sarah's trauma is so severe, her mind so broken by everything she's seen in the last two days, she devolves into a impenetrable state of denial.
In the time after the trailer park she wanders around the area in kind of a trance, doing childish things like picking flowers, climbing on that statue, reading the info displays like everything's fine, completely oblivious to severity of the situation. If you try to talk to her about what happen she either pretends not to hear you or just changes the subject. When the walkers come if you don't have Mike grab Sarah she just strolls over them thinking their people and gets eaten. If Mike drags her along, then she wanders out on the deck during the chaos and starts looking through the telescopes before it collapses.
Again, ANYTHING to punctate these sloppy, poorly constructed, possibly even nonexistent story threads. Sarah's actual deaths as they stand have nothing to do with her being childish. The second one is 100% bad luck. She gets stuck in a situation completely beyond her control, and only because of where she happened to be standing at time. If Jane had been standing in her place, miss badass lone wolf would be fucking dead meat. And despite what some people assert, Sarah freaking out over Carlos's death really isn't so much childish as typical behavior for everyone in this fucking series!
The same time she's screaming for her dad, Kenny, someone well over twice her age, very much not sheltered from the worst parts of the world, and has actually dealt with similar horrible trauma before, well stop for a fucking soliloquy over Sarita in the middle of the herd. While Sarah is locked in a trailer and won't talk to anyone, Kenny's hold up in a tent and refuses to see anymore. Sarah stammers on about going back to the cabin with her dad, while Kenny talks about how awesome being beaten to death is. And when the walkers come, Sarah is actually the first to spot them, while Kenny runs INTO them so he can repeatedly beat one long after killing it.
I appreciate you're trying to find some actual meaning in S2's story, but if it was there we wouldn't have to fill in the blanks like this. We could just be discussing the implications and significance of it instead of trying to guess what if anything any of it means. Odds are Sarah was just conceived as a friend to kill off in front of Clem by Nick Breckon, and the writers of episodes 3 & 4 didn't like her so her issues were used to make Clem look tougher by comparison, completely ignoring any significant story payoff her character may have had outside of reminding us "Clem's tough." =P
I feel like getting a second guardian figure killed because of a mistake on one's part would be much worse than getting one guardian figure killed, yeah. She might have been able to forgive herself for a single mistake as a onetime thing, but when it happens again in such short time frame, it makes sense that it would cause her to take that as confirmation that the blame for both incidents should be place squarely on her own shoulders. Not to mention that following Lee's death, she would have had a cheerful Omid and Christa there to reassure her that it wasn't her fault, whereas after Omid's death, she's left with only a bitter woman grieving over her husband and (at some point) child.
I suppose that they wanted to keep things a bit more subtle as far as that was concerned. Frankly, having a two "Freudian slip" moments (including Kenny's "Duck" slip-up) would have seemed a little hammy and inauthentic. I'm not saying that Clem should explicitly acknowledge that Sarah = S1 Clem. I'm saying that it's more of a subconscious impetus for her general attitude towards Sarah. Clem can either be nice but firm in trying to push this childish and naive kid to get to where she is or she can outright reject her as someone who would only get other people killed. Either approach demonstrates some level of aversion that Clem has to her past self, with the first being indicative of a desire to correct her past and the second being indicative of a desire to obliterate it. That being said, I agree with you that I would have liked to see more exploration and even resolution of her guilt.
I was largely referring to the approach that Clem can take towards Sarah's death, particularly in the trailer scene. She can either fight tooth and nail to preserve this sweet and innocent but ultimately troublesome entity or she can see that abandoning that entity is the right thing to do to save herself.
Well the difference here is that Kenny eventually does respond to reason. You can talk him into getting up and doing what needs to be done (or he eventually talks himself into doing it). With Sarah, you can say whatever the hell you want, she still doesn't budge until you physically slap her to snap her out of it. And what she says isn't "leave me alone," it's "I can't" and "I'm scared," which are childish utterances.
Oddly enough, while that fight was going on, I was hoping for an ultimatum. Like if Clementine steps in front of Kenny and Jane, she can place her gun up to her head and demand they stop their quarrel immediately.
They were both fighting each other cause they thought the other one dying would benefit Clementine (to varying degree's). It'd throw a hell of a kink in both of their plans if she used what little bit of power she had by using death as an incentive to salvage what was left in the trio.
Then why does she mention Lee and being stupid and not Omid and being stupid? She doesn't mention Omid once after Christa is gone. If that was the trigger for her mental collapse, it should have come up at least once. She doesn't even mention him when Kenny is thinking of baby names.
And really, her terrible mistake that got Omid killed was not picking up her gun before walking three fucking feet to pick up a bottle while her two supposedly responsible parental figures slipped off for some action. Christa tells Lee it was stupid for Lee and Clem to barge into a dark building, then let's Clem do exactly that, alone! They couldn't even bother to clear the room for her first.
That's a world of difference from Clem having secret talks with a stranger about everything you do and then believing him when he says he has her parents and going against the advice of the man whose safeguarded her for several months and a second adult who thinks it's a bad idea... and getting jumped because your adoptive mom and dad believe fucking is more important than their kid's safety.
Yeah that's another issue, this whole idea that Sarah's dangerous. They never really did sell me on that. How many people did she get killed? Reggie? Because Carver himself says he was done with Reggie. Sarita? That whole horde scene is such a clusterfuck I can't tell who was where. I just remember Bonnie shooting a machine gun and for some reason the Walkers go after Clem and not her. What does that leave? The trailer park? Well they could and possibly will leave her, that's their call.
Oh, and again, these are all things are Lord and Savior Kenny does. Already covered the dual herd time wasting freak outs and self-isolation possibly suicidal episodes they both go through. Sarah sucking at her work isn't quite as bad as Kenny REFUSING to work and even starting a fight with Mike over it. Not to mention trying to escape upon arrival. Love how Troy doesn't actually care all that much that Kenny is walking around with hands free. Welcome to Howe's, where little girls are beaten for speaking out of turn but dangerous assholes trying to escape and starting fights are given multiple free passes before finally being punished!
Really, Sarah seems like she's only potentially a danger to herself, in that she has a very hard time with all these situations. Even then, as long someone is helping her, she seems like she's willing to keep going. She's clearly scared shitless going through the herd but she keeps going until Carlos gets shot, then she somehow sprints through unbitten! Clem can determinately due nearly as much stupid shit. Like cut off Sarita's arm in the middle of the herd, shoot Rebecca during a tense stand off causing a shoot out, break through thin ice and fall into a frozen lake. She can also fuck with the bars in Howe's and get Reggie into trouble too.
Again, Sarah's innocence isn't what's making her act that way, it's her grief and if you do save her, then she dies in a way that had nothing to do with her or Clem's character or anything to with grief or innocence. And again, this completely contradicts all the horsesshit about trying to save Kenny who is very obviously becoming a violent lunatic who does stupid and/or insane shit left and right. Or raising AJ, who is literally helpless and requires years of constant care. Why is it Clem leaving Sarah can be treated as the right thing to do, but shooting Kenny is horrible tragedy and leaving AJ isn't even an option?
KENNY MURDERS A WOMAN ON WHO CLAIMS SHE LOST A BABY ACCIDENT! The fact Jane was lying (and fucking stupid herself) is irrelevant because Kenny didn't know that. This is after constantly beating a kid, possibly threatening to beat Clem, yelling and screaming at everyone who makes reasonable suggestions like "Let's not drive through a blizzard in the middle of the night" and "Let's resupply before looking for somewhere that may not exist." Kenny eventually becomes unreasonable personified, only finally seeing reason after getting a bullet, or murdering a woman.
The difference was Kenny was given more time to deal with his grief. He doesn't see reason until the SAME TIME Sarah potentially returns. And he laters goes on to fucking murder someone after driving off everyone else. What Sarah would have done is she had more than a few hours to come to terms with what happened is up in the air. But what little clues we do have did point to the possibility of recovery. After getting slapped (again) she doesn't lock up again. When the walkers come she runs with the others for safety (while Kenny runs to them). She's still in denial about her father's death, but that's the first stage of grief. Curious to how she would respond to AJ. At the very least, I don't think she would have stabbed anyone to death over him.
No, just no. Leave me alone is THE call of someone childishly not wanting to deal with problems. It's a phrase uttered by every teenager slamming their door on their parents when they aren't ready to deal with something that's bothering them. There's no shame in admitting you're afraid of something, or that you think you're going to fail. It'd be far more childish to be afraid, and lie about it so people won't think you're afraid.
Nothing about S2 pisses me off more than this sick and ultimately fucking stupid viewpoint that to "survive" you have to be a stupid selfish asshole, who never listens to anyone, does whatever the fuck they want, and you'll never suffer any consequences for it. It's the kind of thinking that would have left Clementine to die in S1, and ironically, probably gotten Lee killed much sooner as well.
And if this is the character Clem is suppose to be, which I actually AGREE with you is what the writers want her to be, she's not only a dumb bitch, she's a fucking hypocrite to boot. Because the only reason she ever survived to begin with was a man took care of her for MONTHS and only after that, did he reluctantly teach her some basic ways to defend herself, and as only in case he couldn't get be there to help her. And that only happened because Chuck helped Lee to see the pressing need to help Clementine more than already was.
You're right, S2 Clem would and probably does hate S1 Clem, and she's a fucking idiot for doing so. Because needing help is not a sign of weakness, it's admission of your own shortcomings, which takes bravery to admit to, just like when Clem asked Sarah for help when her arm was cut. Clem showed a lot more courage there, asking for help from a total stranger, then constantly brow beating Sarah for mistakes Clem has made herself in the past.
It's hard to trust people. It's hard to set aside your own pride. It's hard to confess you're afraid, or you don't know what to do. But it's easy to just lie about it though, or pretend like you don't have a problem, or just push people away. And it's those things that'll make you weaker. Because you won't learn from your mistakes, you won't deal with your problems, and when you won't have anyone to pick you up when you inevitably fall at some point.
Clem only survives BOTH seasons because of the constant help of others. Just in season two, Christa watches her for over a year, and teaches her to sew up a wound. Pete and Luke save Clem in the forest. Sarah gives her the antiseptic she needed. Luke gives her something to eat, as does Walter. Jane teaches her ways to overcome her size disadvantage, and saves them from the Russians, and jumps into a frozen lake to save Clem yet again if she breaks the ice. And there is no shame in any of this, because the only way she'll ever get stronger is with the help of others, just like the only way AJ will ever grow is with the care of others.
And if you still don't believe me, answer me this, why is Alone Ending the shortest one? The one where we see Clem smear some dead crap on herself and a baby then walks into a swarm of the dead? And that's the whole ending. It's because there's no way to spin doctor her situation as anything other than fucked. Because she's weaker than she's ever been. And this time, when she falls, and she will, there's no one left to pick her up, then there will be no one left to pick up AJ, all because Clem resents that she ever needed help from anyone...
Well for one, because Luke asks about Lee, not Omid. But in saying how stupid she was with Lee, she says "Sometimes people die because it," which seems to refer to more than just Lee. And I'm not saying that she was just as guilty in Omid's death as she was in Lee's (I don't think she's to blame for either death, actually), I'm saying that her involvement in Omid's death would have exacerbated any prior guilt she had over Lee's death. Say I accidentally hit someone with my car and then, shortly afterwards, get into another accident. That second accident going to make it pretty damn hard to look back on that first accident and not think it was my fault, because I was the common thread.
Well that's exactly the point, isn't it? She's only dangerous insofar as people care about her and try to save her. Same with S1 Clem. People died trying to save her from her own mistakes. And she hates that.
It's not just grief, it's fear. She's afraid to face the world alone, without the help of her dad, so she just refuses to and instead just curls up into a little ball and dies. That's childishness. It's perfectly understandable childishness given her circumstances, but it's still childishness.
I actually thought that the game did paint killing Kenny was the right thing to do (doesn't he actually say as much himself?). As for AJ, I think it's pretty clear that the whole point of the season is to give Clem a baby to care for so they certainly weren't going to let us abandon him.
I thought we were just talking about the scenes where they were initially unresponsive, not the lasting effects of their trauma. Kenny is fucked up, yes. I am in no way defending how fucked up he is. But when he's grieving over his wife's body and Mike tells him they have to go, he goes. When he wants nothing more than to wallow in his own self-pity and someone needs his help to deliver a baby, he helps. That's what I meant by "respond to reason." But, in fact, Jane does use the same arguments to get the Clem to leave Kenny as she did for getting Clem to leave Sarah.
I think this largely depends on the context. In terms of grieving of a lost loved, one "leave me alone" seems a pretty reasonable thing to say. I wouldn't call that childish. And while admitting that you're afraid or that you think you will fail to do something isn't childish, it is childish to be paralyzed by that fact you're afraid or the belief that you'll fail, which is what Sarah was doing. Like a little fledgling who won't leave the nest even as the branch crashes down.
Well, she's a hypocrite if you choose the cold, selfish options. If you choose the options that have you helping other people when they most need it, you have a character who hates weakness and helplessness because she knows from her own experience that it causes other people to die, but still can't bring herself to abandon those who are weak and helpless. You have a character who forces herself to be self-reliant, but will still shoulder the burdens of others. That's actually a pretty admirable disposition to me.
He was wheezing and coughing. Sounded like it hit a lung.
Just answer me this. Why should we care about a baby?
Interesting tid bit of information:
If you go talk to Christa after she finds you and Clem in the train station she will tell you she agrees with you and she needs to learn.
I was saying Clementine got shot in the shoulder, not Kenny.
Exactly why Arvo should have died...
Any baby or AJ in particular? You should care about babies because they're human lives that need your help to live. AJ in particular also has the added benefit of being cared about by people whom you potentially care about and entrusted to you by them, so there's a sort of transitive property thing going on.
Oh and because he's cute, I guess.
She also tells them both to be smart about it. Scan the area and be looking in different places from each other so you can be more aware of your surroundings. Also avoid buildings like that train station...
I'm starting to wonder if anyone who wrote for S2 actually played S1. Maybe they just watched a Let's Play of a Pro-Kenny play through. =P
Isn't that precisely what Omid and Christa did? Scan the area outside from afar before approaching and then send Clem into one restroom while they went to another?