I'm not even a "Kenny Loyalist" and I still don't really forgive her yet. She didn't redeem herself. If you tried to forgive her once and let her come with you, then she just fucks you over again by stealing the RV. Kind of a dick move if you ask me.
I'm not even a "Kenny Loyalist" and I still don't really forgive her yet. She didn't redeem herself. If you tried to forgive her once and let her come with you, then she just fucks you over again by stealing the RV. Kind of a dick move if you ask me.
Maybe, 'justified' isn't the right word. I guess 'understandable' is the better word.
Wouldn't you be pissed off that your friend who you don't trust and don't like got your child killed? Accident or not, she was there. You'd be pretty pissed, right?
Lilly shot Carley/Doug because Kenny killed her father and she was broken and was losing it, as a result she blames Carley and Ben when some… moreone steals from the group because she believes that will get the only people she has left killed, the situation gets tense and she loses control, is practically the exact same thing Kenny was going through and if Kenny's murder is justifiable so is Lilly's, you only chose to justify Kenny's actions because you wanted to forgive him.
From the beginning Jane gave the impression she would dispose of the baby as it was a threat to the group. Kenny acted as the vast majority of people would have acted. To rid the world of a person who murdered a child.
Kenny's reaction wasn't really justified, because he had no evidence that Jane actually killed AJ. Even though Jane is to blame because she lied the whole time, and yeah I would go pretty mad if it happened to my child because Jane couldn't be trusted with babies. But he had no right to kill her with no proof or anything. It's Kenny's and Jane's fault.
I don't forgive Lily. When you think about it, Kenny's anger at Jane was justified. He thought she got AJ killed, accident or not she was th… moreere. Wouldn't you be pissed off that your friend who don't trust and don't like got your child killed? You'd be pretty pissed. While Lily shot Carley for an insult.
Edit: Not justified, understandable is better.
He was done at that point, Andy could do nothing and had no will to live, while with Kenny and Jane they're locked in a close quarters struggle trying to live, had Jane run and/or walked away, Kenny would give chase trying to "avenge" the baby. There was nothing she could do but fight and hope she outlives or beats him 'till he stops.
Or well you know, she could have atleast tried to say the baby is safe. Pretty sure Jane could have juked Kenny around that slide. She might be able to outrun him and yell stuff like ''AJ is alive'' but she didnt even bother.
He was done at that point, Andy could do nothing and had no will to live, while with Kenny and Jane they're locked in a close quarters strug… moregle trying to live, had Jane run and/or walked away, Kenny would give chase trying to "avenge" the baby. There was nothing she could do but fight and hope she outlives or beats him 'till he stops.
I forgave Lilly. I know what she did wasn't right, and believe me, I was extremely mad. But, she did care for the group - she did look out for them. She tried her best to maintain morale and keep the group together, until, she became broken, upset. Then she lost control, and killed someone out of rage and anger. It wasn't right, but I can forgive her for everything she tried to do for the group - hopefully Kenny can too.
Innocent until proven guilty, ever heard of that? Who started the fight? Kenny, not Jane. Jane simply set up an situation where maniac like Kenny would have chance to show how irrational and crazy he really is.
There is no solid evidence to backup that she didn't. Who started it? Jane. She set Kenny up at a time that she was the only one with a weapon. One could conclude she set him up to attack her, giving her reason to kill him.
Looks like im the only one who completely forgive Jane but still hate Lilly, she deserves to burn in hell forever . I try to put myself in the place of people and forgave so many after do this, but this crazy bitch will always be who I hate more, Cant forgive her, never.
well if innocent until bla bla bla, then the same could be said the other way around.
Considering what Jane already said about half the cabin group(deserting them leave them behind even AJ) makes her more guilty then Kenny
She is more guilty then Kenny, and you don't get al lot do you?
Innocent until proven guilty, ever heard of that? Who started the fight? Kenny, not Jane. Jane simply set up an situation where maniac like Kenny would have chance to show how irrational and crazy he really is.
Question Kenny's reasoning skill if you want (in regards to this discussion anyway...), but that doesn't mean it compares to what Lilly did. He attacked someone who he perceived to be the murderer of someone dear to him, and he was actually in the heat of the moment and fighting for his life (as you mentioned). Lilly wasn't dealing with any sort of direct danger, nor was she dealing with anything on the magnitude of a perceived child murderer. She was in the middle of reasonable/rational discussion and decided to pop someone just because she was pissed off that she wasn't getting her way. The only similarity is in the fact that neither Kenny or Lilly could prove anyone guilty. So I suppose ignoring all context/detail you could call the situations similar, but they really aren't actually the same thing.
Really?
To me it seemed like the exact same thing, Kenny just snapped and murdered someone because he just lost it when he thought AJ was… more dead and assumed Jane had killed him without even considering the possibility of an accident, I'll give Kenny a bit of credit in the fact that Jane did try to kill him too but the nature of both situations is extremely similar.
well if innocent until bla bla bla, then the same could be said the other way around.
Considering what Jane already said about half the cab… morein group(deserting them leave them behind even AJ) makes her more guilty then Kenny
She is more guilty then Kenny, and you don't get al lot do you?
I'm not even a "Kenny Loyalist" and I still don't really forgive her yet. She didn't redeem herself. If you tried to forgive her once and let her come with you, then she just fucks you over again by stealing the RV. Kind of a dick move if you ask me.
Maybe. I mean she was disturbed, okay but still murdering an inocent woman was crazy especially since i sort of had a crush on Carley :P That is probably clouding my judgement and love for Kenny may and my dislikes for Jane and Russian guy too.
Where do you pull this assumption? What would possible make him think Jane is a threat to a person she is willing to risk her life for?
You know Kenny doesn't see it in that context... and neither do I for that matter. Makes me think that your question was simply rhetorical, and not actually a legitimate question.
And Carley would have been shot either way. The scene with doug shows that she will shoot even if she isnt provoked, so i doubt that she wasnt planning to shoot someone in the first place.
I don't think she was planning on shooting anyone at all. It was an emotional, spur of the moment decision. Before Carley got shot, Lilly was completely laying into Ben. She suspected him above all others. He was panicking, and it was making him the prime suspect. She even pointed to Ben and said: "Do we need any more evidence than this!?", showing us that she strongly considered Ben to be guilty. Carley then stood up to Lilly's bullying and ended up getting shot in the head almost immediately afterwards. You can't honestly tell me that was just coincidental timing.
Where do you pull this assumption? What would possible make him think Jane is a threat to a person she is willing to risk her life for?
A… morend Carley would have been shot either way. The scene with doug shows that she will shoot even if she isnt provoked, so i hardly doubt that she wasnt planning to shoot someone in the first place. She also happened to dislike Carley, giving her more reason to suspect her.
Yeah understandable is a better word, Kenny's actions were more understandable but not really justifiably, and while Lilly did shoot Carley out of anger it wasn't just out of anger, the entire beginning of episode 3 sets up the fact that she's not really all there because of what happened to Larry, she was just completely unstable and she had a gun, not really a good combination, to be honest the only reason I forgave her was because Lee was a murderer and I didn't feel like I had any right to pass judgement on her because of that.
Maybe, 'justified' isn't the right word. I guess 'understandable' is the better word.
Wouldn't you be pissed off that your friend who yo… moreu don't trust and don't like got your child killed? Accident or not, she was there. You'd be pretty pissed, right?
Lily shot Carley out of anger. At least to me.
Lilly wasn't dealing with anything of that magnitude?
She lost everything she had and couldn't trust the people she was left, she isolated herself and was going practically insane, she was going through just as much and she lost it at the moment, I mean she really wanted to stay at the motel, being forced on the road probably made her lose what little sanity she had left and snapped, pretty much the same as Kenny, sure Kenny had the excuse that Jane attacked him back but he did throw the first punch and said he was going to kill her before that, and again his reasoning skills were in better state than Lilly's as you are claiming wouldn't that make it worse?
Anyway the similarities are that they were both suffering because of the loss of loved ones and were losing control, something happened that was the opposite of what they wanted (AJ dying/Losing the motel & drug trade) and they took their anger out on someone by murdering them, sure Kenny seems a bit more reasonable because a baby died and regardless of whether she killed him or not the responsibility of that falls on Jane, but in the end both are about losing the little control they had left and finally snapping.
Question Kenny's reasoning skill if you want (in regards to this discussion anyway...), but that doesn't mean it compares to what Lilly did.… more He attacked someone who he perceived to be the murderer of someone dear to him, and he was actually in the heat of the moment and fighting for his life (as you mentioned). Lilly wasn't dealing with any sort of direct danger, nor was she dealing with anything on the magnitude of a perceived child murderer. She was in the middle of reasonable/rational discussion and decided to pop someone just because she was pissed off that she wasn't getting her way. The only similarity is in the fact that neither Kenny or Lilly could prove anyone guilty. So I suppose ignoring all context/detail you could call the situations similar, but they really aren't actually the same thing.
As Lee, though I had his back when things were tough, which doesn't mean I agreed with everything he said, when Clementine went missing, Kenny jumped at the chance to help look for her.
Nobody else in the group came to help.
As Clementine, he protected her and AJ, with everything he had.
What really showed me how much he cared, was when he pleaded that Clementine and Alvie be allowed sanctuary in Wellington, even if that meant he wouldn't be allowed to go in himself.
Even back in Season 1, at the motor-inn, Kenny prefered to have the kids eat; instead of him.
In contrast with Larry, who acted like a child when the food was exhausted.
Kenny displayed a strong degree of selflessness in many respects.
If Alvin got killed at the lodge, in episode 5, while cleaning his wound; Kenny felt himself to blame, and wished he had given up before Carver shot Alvin.
Personally, I strive to look for the good in others, which is a lesson I strive to apply in my everyday life.
Which doesn't mean you ignore people's bad traits.
But what it simply means is, you choose to focus on their good ones.
why is it that all you ever do on these forums now is try to make people hate kenny. Every time someone says something good about kenny you respond with an extremely negative statement. And to be frank, he never hated anyone or disliked anyone, he was neutral towards anyone in the group who wasnt his family or clem, even if he didnt truly care for them (though he did care for MY lee). Hell, he didnt even HATE lily
I forgave Lilly. I know what she did wasn't right, and believe me, I was extremely mad. But, she did care for the group - she did look out f… moreor them. She tried her best to maintain morale and keep the group together, until, she became broken, upset. Then she lost control, and killed someone out of rage and anger. It wasn't right, but I can forgive her for everything she tried to do for the group - hopefully Kenny can too.
She asked Rebecca what she would do with it because, she thinks it's impossible to raise a child in this world. I'm sure a lot of people in the za would agree. But she wouldn't purposely kill AJ. She was trying to help Clem. If AJ had actually died she knew Clem wouldn't trust her anymore. "It was an accident, Kenny!" He didn't even let her explain what happened. As soon as he heard AJ didn't make it, a flip switched. Even if I thought she had accidentally got AJ killed, I wouldn't wanna kill her.
From the beginning Jane gave the impression she would dispose of the baby as it was a threat to the group. Kenny acted as the vast majority of people would have acted. To rid the world of a person who murdered a child.
No I wouldnt forgive Lilly. Reason being, Lilly shot Carley (or was about to shoot Ben but hit Doug) without any real proof that either had done anything wrong. We all know Carley didn't take the med's so why did Lilly shoot her? Because she was insulted? Because she "thought" Carley stole the drug's? or she "thought" Ben did, but still had no real proof or confession?
Why did Kenny kill Jane? Did Jane kill AJ? No.. We all know that except Jane pretended to have lost AJ, She intentionally presented Kenny with that senerio. We all know that. Kenny reacted on what he was presented with and Jane could have stopped it simply by telling Kenny AJ was alive and in the car, but she didn't. Kenny was justified, Lilly was not!
Lilly wasn't dealing with anything of that magnitude?
She wasn't. Not literally. I'm not talking about things that were weighing on her sanity. Obviously she had a lot on her mind, but that doesn't really matter. I was talking about what situation she was actually physically dealing with at the time that she shot Carley. "Lilly wasn't dealing with any sort of direct danger, nor was she dealing with anything on the magnitude of a perceived child murderer. She was in the middle of reasonable/rational discussion and decided to pop someone just because she was pissed off that she wasn't getting her way.". Neither Carley nor Ben were murderers, or anyone she was even suspecting of murder. They weren't perceived as dangerous in a direct sense. They hadn't directly wronged Lilly in any way. Certainly not to the extent that Kenny had felt like he was wronged by Jane. His response was a realistic response to thinking someone had murdered "his" baby. Feeling as if a loved one was murdered is an entirely different situation than dealing with a group member who made a bad decision in dealing the group's supplies to bandits. The context of these two situations is pretty much entirely different. You can't just look at it in the entirely broad sense that both made questionable judgement calls while being in a fragile state of mind and then call the situations equal. One can reasonably think that the Kenny situation is forgivable/understandable, while on the other hand not forgiving Lilly for her actions regarding Carley/Doug.
Lilly wasn't dealing with anything of that magnitude?
She lost everything she had and couldn't trust the people she was left, she isolate… mored herself and was going practically insane, she was going through just as much and she lost it at the moment, I mean she really wanted to stay at the motel, being forced on the road probably made her lose what little sanity she had left and snapped, pretty much the same as Kenny, sure Kenny had the excuse that Jane attacked him back but he did throw the first punch and said he was going to kill her before that, and again his reasoning skills were in better state than Lilly's as you are claiming wouldn't that make it worse?
Anyway the similarities are that they were both suffering because of the loss of loved ones and were losing control, something happened that was the opposite of what they wanted (AJ dying/Losing the motel & drug trade) and they took their anger out on someone by murdering them, s… [view original content]
Comments
I'm not even a "Kenny Loyalist" and I still don't really forgive her yet. She didn't redeem herself. If you tried to forgive her once and let her come with you, then she just fucks you over again by stealing the RV. Kind of a dick move if you ask me.
I was never angry at her
FIND PEACE
Walk away? From someone trying to kill you? Yeah, that will work out splendidly.
Fuck Lily she shot someone because that person made her angry and was in no way defending herself. That crime is unforgivable in my eyes
Remember Andy? Most players walked away.
This. I just can't get over it.
Maybe, 'justified' isn't the right word. I guess 'understandable' is the better word.
Wouldn't you be pissed off that your friend who you don't trust and don't like got your child killed? Accident or not, she was there. You'd be pretty pissed, right?
Lily shot Carley out of anger. At least to me.
Clemenruto.
From the beginning Jane gave the impression she would dispose of the baby as it was a threat to the group. Kenny acted as the vast majority of people would have acted. To rid the world of a person who murdered a child.
I didn't really forgive either. I would also throw him in a meat locker with no escape route with many dying people.
I already did.
Kenny's reaction wasn't really justified, because he had no evidence that Jane actually killed AJ. Even though Jane is to blame because she lied the whole time, and yeah I would go pretty mad if it happened to my child because Jane couldn't be trusted with babies. But he had no right to kill her with no proof or anything. It's Kenny's and Jane's fault.
He was done at that point, Andy could do nothing and had no will to live, while with Kenny and Jane they're locked in a close quarters struggle trying to live, had Jane run and/or walked away, Kenny would give chase trying to "avenge" the baby. There was nothing she could do but fight and hope she outlives or beats him 'till he stops.
Or well you know, she could have atleast tried to say the baby is safe. Pretty sure Jane could have juked Kenny around that slide. She might be able to outrun him and yell stuff like ''AJ is alive'' but she didnt even bother.
I forgave Lilly. I know what she did wasn't right, and believe me, I was extremely mad. But, she did care for the group - she did look out for them. She tried her best to maintain morale and keep the group together, until, she became broken, upset. Then she lost control, and killed someone out of rage and anger. It wasn't right, but I can forgive her for everything she tried to do for the group - hopefully Kenny can too.
Can you imagine Lilly and/or Christa meeting Kenny & Clementine again?
Innocent until proven guilty, ever heard of that? Who started the fight? Kenny, not Jane. Jane simply set up an situation where maniac like Kenny would have chance to show how irrational and crazy he really is.
Looks like im the only one who completely forgive Jane but still hate Lilly, she deserves to burn in hell forever . I try to put myself in the place of people and forgave so many after do this, but this crazy bitch will always be who I hate more, Cant forgive her, never.
well if innocent until bla bla bla, then the same could be said the other way around.
Considering what Jane already said about half the cabin group(deserting them leave them behind even AJ) makes her more guilty then Kenny
She is more guilty then Kenny, and you don't get al lot do you?
Question Kenny's reasoning skill if you want (in regards to this discussion anyway...), but that doesn't mean it compares to what Lilly did. He attacked someone who he perceived to be the murderer of someone dear to him, and he was actually in the heat of the moment and fighting for his life (as you mentioned). Lilly wasn't dealing with any sort of direct danger, nor was she dealing with anything on the magnitude of a perceived child murderer. She was in the middle of reasonable/rational discussion and decided to pop someone just because she was pissed off that she wasn't getting her way. The only similarity is in the fact that neither Kenny or Lilly could prove anyone guilty. So I suppose ignoring all context/detail you could call the situations similar, but they really aren't actually the same thing.
I didnt understand your first sentence at all.
Guilty of what? Being selfish and rational survivor?
Amen.
Maybe. I mean she was disturbed, okay but still murdering an inocent woman was crazy especially since i sort of had a crush on Carley :P That is probably clouding my judgement and love for Kenny may and my dislikes for Jane and Russian guy too.
You know Kenny doesn't see it in that context... and neither do I for that matter. Makes me think that your question was simply rhetorical, and not actually a legitimate question.
I don't think she was planning on shooting anyone at all. It was an emotional, spur of the moment decision. Before Carley got shot, Lilly was completely laying into Ben. She suspected him above all others. He was panicking, and it was making him the prime suspect. She even pointed to Ben and said: "Do we need any more evidence than this!?", showing us that she strongly considered Ben to be guilty. Carley then stood up to Lilly's bullying and ended up getting shot in the head almost immediately afterwards. You can't honestly tell me that was just coincidental timing.
Clementine killed Lee for whatever reason.
It was euthanasia.
Your word choice was "for whatever reason" though.
Yeah understandable is a better word, Kenny's actions were more understandable but not really justifiably, and while Lilly did shoot Carley out of anger it wasn't just out of anger, the entire beginning of episode 3 sets up the fact that she's not really all there because of what happened to Larry, she was just completely unstable and she had a gun, not really a good combination, to be honest the only reason I forgave her was because Lee was a murderer and I didn't feel like I had any right to pass judgement on her because of that.
Lilly wasn't dealing with anything of that magnitude?
She lost everything she had and couldn't trust the people she was left, she isolated herself and was going practically insane, she was going through just as much and she lost it at the moment, I mean she really wanted to stay at the motel, being forced on the road probably made her lose what little sanity she had left and snapped, pretty much the same as Kenny, sure Kenny had the excuse that Jane attacked him back but he did throw the first punch and said he was going to kill her before that, and again his reasoning skills were in better state than Lilly's as you are claiming wouldn't that make it worse?
Anyway the similarities are that they were both suffering because of the loss of loved ones and were losing control, something happened that was the opposite of what they wanted (AJ dying/Losing the motel & drug trade) and they took their anger out on someone by murdering them, sure Kenny seems a bit more reasonable because a baby died and regardless of whether she killed him or not the responsibility of that falls on Jane, but in the end both are about losing the little control they had left and finally snapping.
What I described, was my experience with Kenny.
As Lee, though I had his back when things were tough, which doesn't mean I agreed with everything he said, when Clementine went missing, Kenny jumped at the chance to help look for her.
Nobody else in the group came to help.
As Clementine, he protected her and AJ, with everything he had.
What really showed me how much he cared, was when he pleaded that Clementine and Alvie be allowed sanctuary in Wellington, even if that meant he wouldn't be allowed to go in himself.
Even back in Season 1, at the motor-inn, Kenny prefered to have the kids eat; instead of him.
In contrast with Larry, who acted like a child when the food was exhausted.
Kenny displayed a strong degree of selflessness in many respects.
If Alvin got killed at the lodge, in episode 5, while cleaning his wound; Kenny felt himself to blame, and wished he had given up before Carver shot Alvin.
Personally, I strive to look for the good in others, which is a lesson I strive to apply in my everyday life.
Which doesn't mean you ignore people's bad traits.
But what it simply means is, you choose to focus on their good ones.
never hated Lily to begin with really, i just like kenny more, tho killing doug got me upset she could still redeem herself
why is it that all you ever do on these forums now is try to make people hate kenny. Every time someone says something good about kenny you respond with an extremely negative statement. And to be frank, he never hated anyone or disliked anyone, he was neutral towards anyone in the group who wasnt his family or clem, even if he didnt truly care for them (though he did care for MY lee). Hell, he didnt even HATE lily
"Hopefully Kenny can too."
Yeah after he kills her on sight, and MAYBE reflects on it for a few months. Kenny isn't in the right mindset to forgive.
She asked Rebecca what she would do with it because, she thinks it's impossible to raise a child in this world. I'm sure a lot of people in the za would agree. But she wouldn't purposely kill AJ. She was trying to help Clem. If AJ had actually died she knew Clem wouldn't trust her anymore. "It was an accident, Kenny!" He didn't even let her explain what happened. As soon as he heard AJ didn't make it, a flip switched. Even if I thought she had accidentally got AJ killed, I wouldn't wanna kill her.
No I wouldnt forgive Lilly. Reason being, Lilly shot Carley (or was about to shoot Ben but hit Doug) without any real proof that either had done anything wrong. We all know Carley didn't take the med's so why did Lilly shoot her? Because she was insulted? Because she "thought" Carley stole the drug's? or she "thought" Ben did, but still had no real proof or confession?
Why did Kenny kill Jane? Did Jane kill AJ? No.. We all know that except Jane pretended to have lost AJ, She intentionally presented Kenny with that senerio. We all know that. Kenny reacted on what he was presented with and Jane could have stopped it simply by telling Kenny AJ was alive and in the car, but she didn't. Kenny was justified, Lilly was not!
No. Doug was awesome, and Lily killed him. I don't really forgive Kenny, either, though.
She wasn't. Not literally. I'm not talking about things that were weighing on her sanity. Obviously she had a lot on her mind, but that doesn't really matter. I was talking about what situation she was actually physically dealing with at the time that she shot Carley. "Lilly wasn't dealing with any sort of direct danger, nor was she dealing with anything on the magnitude of a perceived child murderer. She was in the middle of reasonable/rational discussion and decided to pop someone just because she was pissed off that she wasn't getting her way.". Neither Carley nor Ben were murderers, or anyone she was even suspecting of murder. They weren't perceived as dangerous in a direct sense. They hadn't directly wronged Lilly in any way. Certainly not to the extent that Kenny had felt like he was wronged by Jane. His response was a realistic response to thinking someone had murdered "his" baby. Feeling as if a loved one was murdered is an entirely different situation than dealing with a group member who made a bad decision in dealing the group's supplies to bandits. The context of these two situations is pretty much entirely different. You can't just look at it in the entirely broad sense that both made questionable judgement calls while being in a fragile state of mind and then call the situations equal. One can reasonably think that the Kenny situation is forgivable/understandable, while on the other hand not forgiving Lilly for her actions regarding Carley/Doug.
Grudges aren't a good thing to keep. Anger is only a step in the path of forgiveness.
And i said kill spesifically. If you grant someone their final wish before dying, its not killing.