Wow this is a great post! Sadly I think Christa might be KIA but I want to keep looking for her so we will know what happened. I like carve… morers character even more now as I find him very interesting. Guess I wasn't paying that much attention to dialogue and just went with the whole telltale write him bad train.
Yeah, he does... I belive Pete trusted Clementine because she was alone and hurt little girl, he acted as a moral compass (impact on the Luke's decision) and tried to show Nick that you don't need to be agressive towards all people. And he had bullshit detector, bullshit detector is always good.
Ha, thanks.
I still got the sense that he knew Pete was dead. After all, we know firsthand that Pete IS the type to trust a stranger - h… moree trusted Clementine, and only allowed her to be locked up because it was a democratic decision. Carver knows these people better than Clem does.
I've been thinking about this too. This is what I think happened:
I reckon the 2 surviving scavengers captured Christa and took Clem's backpack (and the weasel). They marched her back to the rest of their group (Roman was among them). At the same time, Carver and some supporters (including Shel) were at the riverbank, searching for the cabin group. There, he found the fish traps and recognized them as Pete's handiwork (he knew he was getting close).
Eventually the two groups crossed paths, Shel and Roman recognized each other and the shootout ensued. The entire scavenger group was wiped by Carver's people. Carver then freed Christa who told him about the attack and how she was planning to head north.
But Carver did say he would kill the baby when the group's attempting to escape. I don't think really cared about it, more of just wanting t… moreo make a Carver 2.0 but kill the baby if he's not useful to him. He only cared about it to make a stronger generation by his views not to truly care it like it's his own.
But Carver did say he would kill the baby when the group's attempting to escape. I don't think really cared about it, more of just wanting t… moreo make a Carver 2.0 but kill the baby if he's not useful to him. He only cared about it to make a stronger generation by his views not to truly care it like it's his own.
"I had a friend named George."
I still agree that George was probably quite important to Carver, to the same extent that Sarita, AJ and Clem were to Kenny.
Because the game itself does make an effort to draw parallels between the two, most explicitly in Episode 5 with Jane's dialogue and his beating of a prisoner.
I believe that Episode 4's depiction of Kenny pushing aside his grief and pretending that everything's okay can be extrapolated to how Carver deals with his "over-stress" (in Bonnie's words.) It's important to note that Bonnie, who witnessed Carver's descent into madness, was also the first person to convince Clem to console Kenny following his loss.
I think that if Carver 'rescued' Christa, he would have taken her with him. The fact that he never uses Christa as a bargaining chip to Clem indicates that he never met her.
I've been thinking about this too. This is what I think happened:
I reckon the 2 surviving scavengers captured Christa and took Clem's ba… moreckpack (and the weasel). They marched her back to the rest of their group (Roman was among them). At the same time, Carver and some supporters (including Shel) were at the riverbank, searching for the cabin group. There, he found the fish traps and recognized them as Pete's handiwork (he knew he was getting close).
Eventually the two groups crossed paths, Shel and Roman recognized each other and the shootout ensued. The entire scavenger group was wiped by Carver's people. Carver then freed Christa who told him about the attack and how she was planning to head north.
Because the game itself does make an effort to draw parallels between the two, most explicitly in Episode 5 with Jane's dialogue and his bea… moreting of a prisoner.
I believe that Episode 4's depiction of Kenny pushing aside his grief and pretending that everything's okay can be extrapolated to how Carver deals with his "over-stress" (in Bonnie's words.) It's important to note that Bonnie, who witnessed Carver's descent into madness, was also the first person to convince Clem to console Kenny following his loss.
Looks like Victor fought with someone - Christa? Carver? - and surrendered to him by raising his hands up. Also, he was supposed to using Winston's spear at the first place, or he picked up a spear after Winston stabbed Christa.
Bumpity bump.
I don't recognize these from the game.
Looks like Victor fought with someone - Christa? Carver? - and surrendered to… more him by raising his hands up. Also, he was supposed to using Winston's spear at the first place, or he picked up a spear after Winston stabbed Christa.
it could've been a person who had freshly died maybe because of that spear, rather than a walker that had been pinned down.
I really don't know, it looked like the typical zombie to me, probably some random walker model.
Well yeah it could've been an older walker. But I still think it's odd how that walker's the only thing there that's taken down by the spear knife-stick, and not a gunshot to the head. Nick/Pete/Clem don't say anything about any spear injuries in the other walkers/people killed there, and I didn't see any similar spear injuries on the others either, just gunshot wounds. However when Pete looks at that speared walker he does say, "Same deal. All shot to pieces." Except it's not shot in the head, unlike most of the rest of them (the dead people have to have been shot in the head too or taken out in the head someway before they died, as it looks like they hadn't turned.)
It's also interesting how there's only one other being in that clearing that hasn't been shot in the head (unless you count the walker that bit Pete, but that one was closer to the trees), and that's Victor. So (and I'm just rambling here) all those people/walkers (minus Victor and the speared-walker) could have been "shot to pieces" in the chest etc. via gun fight between two groups, or machine gun from one person, and then someone could have come by and double-tapped them all in the head if they hadn't been shot in the head already. But the speared-walker and Victor weren't shot in the head though.
Also as the spear was the only weapon left behind (and remember Clem/Pete/Nick hadn't found any ammo or guns), whoever found the river massacred people (if they had died in a gunfight) must have taken their guns. Either that or they didn't have guns in the first place and had been gunned down instead.
Plus, Victor was way out by the water, not close to the other bodies. So Victor and speared-walker could've come by after the massacre, or the double-tapper (if there was one) hadn't been that thorough or had just run out of ammo. However Carver was shown to have plenty of ammo at the Ski Lodge.
Andd it's interesting how both the spear and Clem's bag were left behind. You'd think if Christa had been there and had seen Clem's bag, she'd have tried to get it for Clem. And who would leave a perfectly well-functioning weapon like that spear behind, unless they didn't need it? And if you were right that an injured Christa had been using it as a walking-stick, that's another reason for her to not have left it behind. So I'm guessing whoever did have the spear had been either killed there, had run off, or had been captured.
Then again, Clementine finds his body behind a rock, following a blood trail leading straight to it - has Pete tried to crawl away from walkers, or someone dragged him?
Good point; I forgot about that. But assuming Pete didn't crawl, why would anyone drag him at all? Why not just kill the walker and talk at that spot? Oooh what if Carver found Pete before that blood trail was made (though I imagine Pete's abdomen was probably injured at this point), then they both heard other people coming (the soon-to-be river massacred people), so Carver dragged Pete behind the rock to hide (Pete's body was pretty well hidden behind it) and just avoid them and wait for them to pass by.
Then after the people passed, Carver could've asked Pete if he knew those people, or where the cabin group was like you said. (I'd like to think that Pete wouldn't crack and tell him though.) Then that walker that must've been munching on Pete could've come and Carver might've let him munch on Pete to get more information from him. o.o Or not, idk.
Hey sialark, good to see you around!
That waterbottle wasn't in Clem's bag; Victor wasn't shown to have his own bag
I played t… morehis many times and I've never noticed a tricky waterbottle. :> Actually, we didn't see Christa carring backpack or any big bundles, neither before Omid's death nor after - obviously it doesn't mean that Clementine was the only one toting supplies - howewer if the scavengers had the time to get a bottle from somewhere, it implies they headed back to their camp or met with Roman (theory about him being the leader again) before they got attacked.
Haha I'm just gonna imagine Victor walking around with a little purple and pink backpack on now; excuse me.
Why did you put this image in my head? Dem girly stickers.
it could've been a person who had freshly died maybe because of that spear, rather than a walker that had been pinned down.
I really don't know, it looked like the typi… [view original content]
However when Pete looks at that speared walker he does say, "Same deal. All shot to pieces." Except it's not shot in the head, unlike most of the rest of them.
How about the scavengers "shot to pieces" some people/walkers? The noise attracted other group, there was a shootout, Christa took the opportunity and escaped.
It's also interesting how there's only one other being in that clearing that hasn't been shot in the head and that's Victor.
Perhaps the shooters overlooked him/something distracted them (walkers approaching)? Or the group that killed these people was indeed Carver's; he injured Victor and questioned him about something, then left him to die. Then, he crawled towards the trees, away from trapped walker.
And if you were right that an injured Christa had been using it as a walking-stick, that's another reason for her to not have left it behind.
Some people/walkers were after Christa, she used spear to pinned down walker, spear got stuck, she escaped? Wild guess here.
what if Carver found Pete before that blood trail was made, then they both heard other people coming, so Carver dragged Pete behind the rock to hide and just avoid them and wait for them to pass by.
Good one, I like it. Maybe Carver was trying to help Pete at the first place?
I'd like to think that Pete wouldn't crack and tell him though
Carver: Where's Rebecca? I'm not asking again, Pete.
it could've been a person who had freshly died maybe because of that spear, rather than a walker that had been pinned down.
I really … moredon't know, it looked like the typical zombie to me, probably some random walker model.
Well yeah it could've been an older walker. But I still think it's odd how that walker's the only thing there that's taken down by the spear knife-stick, and not a gunshot to the head. Nick/Pete/Clem don't say anything about any spear injuries in the other walkers/people killed there, and I didn't see any similar spear injuries on the others either, just gunshot wounds. However when Pete looks at that speared walker he does say, "Same deal. All shot to pieces." Except it's not shot in the head, unlike most of the rest of them (the dead people have to have been shot in the head too or taken out in the head someway before they died, as it looks like they hadn't turned.)
It's also interesting how there's only o… [view original content]
Here Bonnie says, "Alvin killed George when he escaped. He might not have meant to, but George died all the same."
It sounds to me that Alvin here may've hurt George but not intended to kill him but just incapacitate him. However due to some complication, George ended up dying either immediately or a while later. E.g. Alvin may have shot George in the leg, meaning to shoot just for George to not follow them, but I assume Alvin either missed his target and hit something more vital or if George was shot in the leg etc., his injury just had some complications leading to his eventual death. He probably died immediately because it seemed Alvin and Rebecca were aware the name "George" was to be a message as you noted above:
Alvin and Rebecca were supposed to hear this name. They were supposed to find out that Carver remembers what Alvin did. I'd say it was a message for them. Reference to the place they escaped from, to make them feel hounded, not just physically, but also mentally.
and if George died then and there, then Alvin and Rebecca could've taken notice of that.
I wonder if "victorHoldGunLeanRight" and "victorHoldGunLeanBack" perhaps are animations (I think? I forget what a "chore file" is in this context exactly) of Victor surrendering his gun, and leaning to the right or leaning back while slowly putting his gun down while someone else has a gun on him? Perhaps which way he moved would've determined if Christa got away, or something similar...
And why would he surrender when he had a gun? Either he was caught off guard with the gun in his hand, or something else happened, e.g. the agitator holding up Victor had a hostage Victor cared about and Victor didn't want to shoot for fear of the hostage or something...idk.
I feel like we should also consider that Christa wasn't shot, assuming this comment (it's actually a couple comments above the linked one, as the link for the real comment isn't working for some reason) is indeed true, which I've quoted here for convenience's sake:
Originally Mike was a member of the group of scavengers that surrounded and attacked Christa in "All that Remains", the first episode of Season 2. If you look closely at the characters surrounding Christa, you'll see that one of them does bear a resemblance to Mike. This character is obviously not Mike but they do look similar (I'll post a link to the character it is after this paragraph). As fans of the game have noticed, part of Mike's ear is missing. The original story that had Mike as part of those scavengers would have explained that the gunshot heard actually took part of Mike's ear off (in the changed version we had no idea what happened with the gunshot or what happened with Mike's ear). We would next see Mike at Howe's (where we do see him for the first time in the game), where he would try to convince Clementine that he's not a bad person after the Christa incident a couple of episodes before.
As we know, Mike doesn't appear in "All That Remains", wasn't part of the scavengers and we only meet him for the first time at Howe's. However, like I said a character that looks similar to Mike does indeed appear in "All That Remains": http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Ralph
If Mike aka Ralph was originally supposed to be shot and had part of his ear taken off, then that single gunshot we heard probably didn't hit Christa as well, unless someone was really aiming off. The shooter was probably aiming for Mike/Ralph in this scrapped version, and got his ear instead.
In addition, Mike aka Ralph could've been with Victor and possibly Christa at the river where the bodies were as well, maybe? Ohhhhhhh if Mike/Ralph was taken into Carver's group as indicated in the quote, then it must've happened here! So perhaps Carver did indeed meet at least the scavengers and held them up, forcing some of them or just Mike/Ralph back to the camp, and Christa must've gotten away at this point when they were distracted by Carver?
This is all conjecture and "what if" scenarios and guessing at what the original plot could've been, but maybe that's how it played out...o.O
Bumpity bump.
I don't recognize these from the game.
Looks like Victor fought with someone - Christa? Carver? - and surrendered to… more him by raising his hands up. Also, he was supposed to using Winston's spear at the first place, or he picked up a spear after Winston stabbed Christa.
Alvin here may've hurt George but not intended to kill him but just incapacitate him. However due to some complication, George ended up dying either immediately or a while later.
Well, this is what I was thinking. First, Alvin doesn't look and/or act like someone who could just murder somebody with the cold blood, even if it comes to protect his wife and unborn child. Could confrontation with George be the point at which he asks himself for the first time may the baby not have been his? - "Kill a liar"?
I believe Alvin was different before he had to kill George, what evidence of goodness and trust game shows us later on. When Pete brings Clementine to the group, Alvin acts as a voice of reason by calming Rebecca and Nick down. He becomes sympathetic towards Clementine and starts to suggest that they could spare some supplies.
Anyway, I replayed "A House Divided" and noticed a few extra things:
It might indicate that Alvin would not kill George only to take revenge on Carver, because he would never go against the group, he wouldn't risk the prosperity of successful escape they managed to achieve (and put the rest of the group down with him), adding fuel to the fire in order enrage Carver even more - make him more determined to hunt down and punish them.
Then again, what are Alvin's priorities? Rebecca and the baby. It was surely the reason which was used to justify the murder. He and Rebecca care for one another, with Alvin constantly looking out for her. When Alvin is held up he says "I love you Bec" showing he believed that it all was Carver's fault or he just forgave her.
Had Nick witnessed what Alvin did to George? What if Alvin-George and Nick-Matthew accident was nothing but a parallel situation, where one person was killed and the second one made a critical mistake, and then, have to deal with consequences, where one trivial slip means death?
If Clementine tries to defend Nick, Alvin speaks about how his behavior led to the unnecessary death, which he definies as "straight up murder in his book". He kept his morality - even if you kill someone accidentally (or in self-defense), it's still murder, and you have to live with that person's blood on your hands whether you like it or not.
He feels guilty, he doesn't deny what he did, he knows that he's going to face Carver. Like Carver said, they both had "history", which is not easy to forget.
From your image above:
Here Bonnie says, "Alvin killed George when he escaped. He might not have meant to, but George died all the sa… moreme."
It sounds to me that Alvin here may've hurt George but not intended to kill him but just incapacitate him. However due to some complication, George ended up dying either immediately or a while later. E.g. Alvin may have shot George in the leg, meaning to shoot just for George to not follow them, but I assume Alvin either missed his target and hit something more vital or if George was shot in the leg etc., his injury just had some complications leading to his eventual death. He probably died immediately because it seemed Alvin and Rebecca were aware the name "George" was to be a message as you noted above:
Alvin and Rebecca were supposed to hear this name. They were supposed to find out that Carver remembers what Alvin did. I'd say it was a message for them. Reference to the place they escape… [view original content]
Alvin here may've hurt George but not intended to kill him but just incapacitate him. However due to some complication, George ended up dyin… moreg either immediately or a while later.
Well, this is what I was thinking. First, Alvin doesn't look and/or act like someone who could just murder somebody with the cold blood, even if it comes to protect his wife and unborn child. Could confrontation with George be the point at which he asks himself for the first time may the baby not have been his? - "Kill a liar"?
I believe Alvin was different before he had to kill George, what evidence of goodness and trust game shows us later on. When Pete brings Clementine to the group, Alvin acts as a voice of reason by calming Rebecca and Nick down. He becomes sympathetic towards Clementine and starts to suggest that they could spare some supplies.
Anyway, I replayed "A House Divided" and noticed a few extra things:
It might indicate that Alv… [view original content]
Alvin here may've hurt George but not intended to kill him but just incapacitate him. However due to some complication, George ended up dyin… moreg either immediately or a while later.
Well, this is what I was thinking. First, Alvin doesn't look and/or act like someone who could just murder somebody with the cold blood, even if it comes to protect his wife and unborn child. Could confrontation with George be the point at which he asks himself for the first time may the baby not have been his? - "Kill a liar"?
I believe Alvin was different before he had to kill George, what evidence of goodness and trust game shows us later on. When Pete brings Clementine to the group, Alvin acts as a voice of reason by calming Rebecca and Nick down. He becomes sympathetic towards Clementine and starts to suggest that they could spare some supplies.
Anyway, I replayed "A House Divided" and noticed a few extra things:
It might indicate that Alv… [view original content]
It looks like the scenes we're trying to logically explain are just remains of the original plotline. Those will have to be either neatly clarified or forgotten.
And why would he surrender when he had a gun? Either he was caught off guard with the gun in his hand, or something else happened, e.g. the agitator holding up Victor had a hostage Victor cared about and Victor didn't want to shoot for fear of the hostage or something...idk.
Who forced him to surrender? Christa?
The shooter was probably aiming for Mike/Ralph in this scrapped version, and got his ear instead.
Who was the shooter? Christa again?
Well, we have the missing piece. Assuming that Christa was the shooter in both situations, she would've had a gun. From what we saw, she only had a spear which Winston stabbed her leg with, and you can't shoot off anybody's ear using that. Backtracking a bit, we know Christa hold on to her rifle while traveling with Omid and Clem at the beginning of Season 2. She used it to shoot Michelle, then we got 16 moths timeskip. Where did the rifle go? Where is Clementine's pistol? No way they were completely unarmed. If Christa had another one/took Clem's gun, and the scavengers didn't check her for weapons, this could be the shot we heard in the woods.
I wonder if "victorHoldGunLeanRight" and "victorHoldGunLeanBack" perhaps are animations (I think? I forget what a "chore file" is in this co… morentext exactly) of Victor surrendering his gun, and leaning to the right or leaning back while slowly putting his gun down while someone else has a gun on him? Perhaps which way he moved would've determined if Christa got away, or something similar...
And why would he surrender when he had a gun? Either he was caught off guard with the gun in his hand, or something else happened, e.g. the agitator holding up Victor had a hostage Victor cared about and Victor didn't want to shoot for fear of the hostage or something...idk.
I feel like we should also consider that Christa wasn't shot, assuming this comment (it's actually a couple comments above the linked one, as the link for the real comment isn't working for some reason) is indeed true, which I've quoted here for convenience's sake:
Originally … [view original content]
It looks like the scenes we're trying to logically explain are just remains of the original plotline. Those will have to be either neatly clarified or forgotten.
Well regardless I think it's still fun figuring out what could've been. Not to mention I keep getting the sneaking suspicion that a lot of this stuff was cut so they'd put it into season 3, or perhaps a dlc. Maybe...
All right, so assuming that the following scene originally was to have taken place in the first ep of season 2 where we first meet the scavengers, and assuming Christa was indeed the one who shot Ralph/Mike like you said (let's assume she still had Clem's hand pistol, as it'd be easy for her to conceal it in the beginning campfire shots if she just had it on her hip under her sweatshirt or something; tho idk, impossibly infinitely-spaced pockets may take a part too ), Christa must've originally had her gun out when confronting the 3 scavengers, rather than just holding her empty hands out in surrender. So maybe Christa was aiming for Ralph, and if Clem distracted the scavengers by throwing a rock, Christa's aim could've been thrown and Ralph got part of his ear off then?
It looks like the scenes we're trying to logically explain are just remains of the original plotline. Those will have to be either neatly cl… morearified or forgotten.
And why would he surrender when he had a gun? Either he was caught off guard with the gun in his hand, or something else happened, e.g. the agitator holding up Victor had a hostage Victor cared about and Victor didn't want to shoot for fear of the hostage or something...idk.
Who forced him to surrender? Christa?
The shooter was probably aiming for Mike/Ralph in this scrapped version, and got his ear instead.
Who was the shooter? Christa again?
Well, we have the missing piece. Assuming that Christa was the shooter in both situations, she would've had a gun. From what we saw, she only had a spear which Winston stabbed her leg with, and you can't shoot off anybody's ear using that. Backtracking a bit, we know Christa hold on to her rifle while traveling w… [view original content]
I keep getting the sneaking suspicion that a lot of this stuff was cut so they'd put it into season 3, or perhaps a dlc.
Meaning we are one step ahead! And what now, TT? 2smart4you.
If Christa had the gun tucked under her shirt or something, she could've easily pulled it out in all this turmoil that happened. Its probably the most sensible solution - pretend to surrender, and then try to get away or attack them by suprise. It seems to me that Clementine made this situation worse than it would've been without scavengers noticing her. But then again, what's done is done.
It is possible that Christa shot Ralph/Mike and he passed out due to the shock and blood loss. Perhaps it could be the original situation in which Carver finds him lying unconscious and decides to take him to Howes (Carver managed to return to Howe's and then got back to Cabin in more or less one day?) But it doesn't explain one - how come this gunshot wound healed up so quickly? It was less than one week between scavenger's attack and Clementine meeting Mike. Unless this is the moment when the original story got suddenly changed.
It looks like the scenes we're trying to logically explain are just remains of the original plotline. Those will have to be either neatly cl… morearified or forgotten.
Well regardless I think it's still fun figuring out what could've been. Not to mention I keep getting the sneaking suspicion that a lot of this stuff was cut so they'd put it into season 3, or perhaps a dlc. Maybe...
All right, so assuming that the following scene originally was to have taken place in the first ep of season 2 where we first meet the scavengers, and assuming Christa was indeed the one who shot Ralph/Mike like you said (let's assume she still had Clem's hand pistol, as it'd be easy for her to conceal it in the beginning campfire shots if she just had it on her hip under her sweatshirt or something; tho idk, impossibly infinitely-spaced pockets may take a part too ), Christa must've originally had her gun out when confronting the 3 scavengers, rather than j… [view original content]
Excellent points! I never noticed a lot of those little details on Alvin. So are you suggesting that during their confrontation, perhaps George may have told Alvin that Rebecca was carrying Carver's baby somehow, and Alvin could've shot George out of anger etc., probably in addition to his need to escape? Interesting. I can see that happening, and it would make me like Alvin's character even more if he knew the baby wasn't his, and yet he still stuck with Rebecca (even though it seems Rebecca thinks that Alvin doesn't know anything.)
In addition, Carver said that George and Alvin were "friends."
"I remember a guy that was your friend named George."
If this is true, then perhaps in their final confrontation, George, as a caring friend, tried to convince Alvin not to leave the safety of Howe's for the unknown outside world? George may have been looking through rose-colored glasses, (as he was close to Carver, and he also wasn't a prisoner like Alvin was) and so similar to Reggie, he probably thought Carver's set-up wasn't so bad, and that leaving Howe's would be suicide compared to staying. Perhaps in George's desperation and frustration to convince Alvin to stay, he (maybe accidentally) let slip that Rebecca was carrying Carver's baby rather than Alvin's.
Alvin here may've hurt George but not intended to kill him but just incapacitate him. However due to some complication, George ended up dyin… moreg either immediately or a while later.
Well, this is what I was thinking. First, Alvin doesn't look and/or act like someone who could just murder somebody with the cold blood, even if it comes to protect his wife and unborn child. Could confrontation with George be the point at which he asks himself for the first time may the baby not have been his? - "Kill a liar"?
I believe Alvin was different before he had to kill George, what evidence of goodness and trust game shows us later on. When Pete brings Clementine to the group, Alvin acts as a voice of reason by calming Rebecca and Nick down. He becomes sympathetic towards Clementine and starts to suggest that they could spare some supplies.
Anyway, I replayed "A House Divided" and noticed a few extra things:
It might indicate that Alv… [view original content]
it would make me like Alvin's character even more if he knew the baby wasn't his, and yet he still stuck with Rebecca (even though it seems Rebecca thinks that Alvin doesn't know anything.)
Same here. That would be a great addition to his character's development, which is a little sluggish, even though we have pretty big room for interpretation, which I like.
I really like what you said about George as a friend who tried to convince Alvin to stay in Howe's, using the argument about Rebecca's (and baby's) well-being. This would explain why he felt guilty, not only because he had to shoot his friend, but also because he did put his wife and child into a danger he probably know very little to deal with - I believe he and Rebecca spent quite a lot of time in Howe's, with Alvin looking for Rebecca during her pregnancy. I also would like to know how were Cabin's Group first days out on the open, away from all those safe walls, where they were going to and how they came across the Cabin. That must've been a very difficult time for them. I'd love to see more Pete in all of this.
Nick's mother is interesting as well, and this whole situation with the walker bite. All we know is that her death was caused by the cabin group's willingness to help a stranger that had been bitten, who turned, then attacked her, and Nick was forced to kill her. Perhaps this stranger was someone we knew. Luckily, it couldn't be Christa. :>
Excellent points! I never noticed a lot of those little details on Alvin. So are you suggesting that during their confrontation, perhaps Ge… moreorge may have told Alvin that Rebecca was carrying Carver's baby somehow, and Alvin could've shot George out of anger etc., probably in addition to his need to escape? Interesting. I can see that happening, and it would make me like Alvin's character even more if he knew the baby wasn't his, and yet he still stuck with Rebecca (even though it seems Rebecca thinks that Alvin doesn't know anything.)
In addition, Carver said that George and Alvin were "friends."
"I remember a guy that was your friend named George."
If this is true, then perhaps in their final confrontation, George, as a caring friend, tried to convince Alvin not to leave the safety of Howe's for the unknown outside world? George may have been looking through rose-colored glasses, (as he was close to Carver, and he also wasn't a … [view original content]
Comments
TBH if we're going with the double standard of her dying while Kenny lives, then at least we should have the decency to see her get killed on-screen.
Yeah, he does... I belive Pete trusted Clementine because she was alone and hurt little girl, he acted as a moral compass (impact on the Luke's decision) and tried to show Nick that you don't need to be agressive towards all people. And he had bullshit detector, bullshit detector is always good.
I've been thinking about this too. This is what I think happened:
I reckon the 2 surviving scavengers captured Christa and took Clem's backpack (and the weasel). They marched her back to the rest of their group (Roman was among them). At the same time, Carver and some supporters (including Shel) were at the riverbank, searching for the cabin group. There, he found the fish traps and recognized them as Pete's handiwork (he knew he was getting close).
Eventually the two groups crossed paths, Shel and Roman recognized each other and the shootout ensued. The entire scavenger group was wiped by Carver's people. Carver then freed Christa who told him about the attack and how she was planning to head north.
Yeah I just want to know what happened to her figure I owe her for looking out for Clem.
I think that was mostly a threat.
Well it depends on what you personally think is small to you.
It was finality. If he wouldn't have the baby, it was nothing that could stop him from killing Rebecca.
why people have to compare Kenny to Carver?
Because the game itself does make an effort to draw parallels between the two, most explicitly in Episode 5 with Jane's dialogue and his beating of a prisoner.
I believe that Episode 4's depiction of Kenny pushing aside his grief and pretending that everything's okay can be extrapolated to how Carver deals with his "over-stress" (in Bonnie's words.) It's important to note that Bonnie, who witnessed Carver's descent into madness, was also the first person to convince Clem to console Kenny following his loss.
I think that if Carver 'rescued' Christa, he would have taken her with him. The fact that he never uses Christa as a bargaining chip to Clem indicates that he never met her.
I thought you were gonna say someting "duhh becuse he is mad like Carver", but instead I got good explanation, thx.
Bumpity bump.
I don't recognize these from the game.
Looks like Victor fought with someone - Christa? Carver? - and surrendered to him by raising his hands up. Also, he was supposed to using Winston's spear at the first place, or he picked up a spear after Winston stabbed Christa.
victorHoldGunChestOut
what's that supposed to mean?
No idea.
Well yeah it could've been an older walker. But I still think it's odd how that walker's the only thing there that's taken down by the spear knife-stick, and not a gunshot to the head. Nick/Pete/Clem don't say anything about any spear injuries in the other walkers/people killed there, and I didn't see any similar spear injuries on the others either, just gunshot wounds. However when Pete looks at that speared walker he does say, "Same deal. All shot to pieces." Except it's not shot in the head, unlike most of the rest of them (the dead people have to have been shot in the head too or taken out in the head someway before they died, as it looks like they hadn't turned.)
It's also interesting how there's only one other being in that clearing that hasn't been shot in the head (unless you count the walker that bit Pete, but that one was closer to the trees), and that's Victor. So (and I'm just rambling here) all those people/walkers (minus Victor and the speared-walker) could have been "shot to pieces" in the chest etc. via gun fight between two groups, or machine gun from one person, and then someone could have come by and double-tapped them all in the head if they hadn't been shot in the head already. But the speared-walker and Victor weren't shot in the head though.
Also as the spear was the only weapon left behind (and remember Clem/Pete/Nick hadn't found any ammo or guns), whoever found the river massacred people (if they had died in a gunfight) must have taken their guns. Either that or they didn't have guns in the first place and had been gunned down instead.
Plus, Victor was way out by the water, not close to the other bodies. So Victor and speared-walker could've come by after the massacre, or the double-tapper (if there was one) hadn't been that thorough or had just run out of ammo. However Carver was shown to have plenty of ammo at the Ski Lodge.
Andd it's interesting how both the spear and Clem's bag were left behind. You'd think if Christa had been there and had seen Clem's bag, she'd have tried to get it for Clem. And who would leave a perfectly well-functioning weapon like that spear behind, unless they didn't need it? And if you were right that an injured Christa had been using it as a walking-stick, that's another reason for her to not have left it behind. So I'm guessing whoever did have the spear had been either killed there, had run off, or had been captured.
Good point; I forgot about that. But assuming Pete didn't crawl, why would anyone drag him at all? Why not just kill the walker and talk at that spot? Oooh what if Carver found Pete before that blood trail was made (though I imagine Pete's abdomen was probably injured at this point), then they both heard other people coming (the soon-to-be river massacred people), so Carver dragged Pete behind the rock to hide (Pete's body was pretty well hidden behind it) and just avoid them and wait for them to pass by.
Then after the people passed, Carver could've asked Pete if he knew those people, or where the cabin group was like you said. (I'd like to think that Pete wouldn't crack and tell him though.) Then that walker that must've been munching on Pete could've come and Carver might've let him munch on Pete to get more information from him. o.o Or not, idk.
How about the scavengers "shot to pieces" some people/walkers? The noise attracted other group, there was a shootout, Christa took the opportunity and escaped.
Perhaps the shooters overlooked him/something distracted them (walkers approaching)? Or the group that killed these people was indeed Carver's; he injured Victor and questioned him about something, then left him to die. Then, he crawled towards the trees, away from trapped walker.
Some people/walkers were after Christa, she used spear to pinned down walker, spear got stuck, she escaped? Wild guess here.
Good one, I like it. Maybe Carver was trying to help Pete at the first place?
Carver: Where's Rebecca? I'm not asking again, Pete.
Pete: I ain't telling you shit.
Carver: shoots Pete
:<
Wasn't it Johnny? They had the same VA.
Bump, for new opinions and ideas.
From your image above:
Here Bonnie says, "Alvin killed George when he escaped. He might not have meant to, but George died all the same."
It sounds to me that Alvin here may've hurt George but not intended to kill him but just incapacitate him. However due to some complication, George ended up dying either immediately or a while later. E.g. Alvin may have shot George in the leg, meaning to shoot just for George to not follow them, but I assume Alvin either missed his target and hit something more vital or if George was shot in the leg etc., his injury just had some complications leading to his eventual death. He probably died immediately because it seemed Alvin and Rebecca were aware the name "George" was to be a message as you noted above:
and if George died then and there, then Alvin and Rebecca could've taken notice of that.
I wonder if "victorHoldGunLeanRight" and "victorHoldGunLeanBack" perhaps are animations (I think? I forget what a "chore file" is in this context exactly) of Victor surrendering his gun, and leaning to the right or leaning back while slowly putting his gun down while someone else has a gun on him? Perhaps which way he moved would've determined if Christa got away, or something similar...
And why would he surrender when he had a gun? Either he was caught off guard with the gun in his hand, or something else happened, e.g. the agitator holding up Victor had a hostage Victor cared about and Victor didn't want to shoot for fear of the hostage or something...idk.
I feel like we should also consider that Christa wasn't shot, assuming this comment (it's actually a couple comments above the linked one, as the link for the real comment isn't working for some reason) is indeed true, which I've quoted here for convenience's sake:
If Mike aka Ralph was originally supposed to be shot and had part of his ear taken off, then that single gunshot we heard probably didn't hit Christa as well, unless someone was really aiming off. The shooter was probably aiming for Mike/Ralph in this scrapped version, and got his ear instead.
In addition, Mike aka Ralph could've been with Victor and possibly Christa at the river where the bodies were as well, maybe? Ohhhhhhh if Mike/Ralph was taken into Carver's group as indicated in the quote, then it must've happened here! So perhaps Carver did indeed meet at least the scavengers and held them up, forcing some of them or just Mike/Ralph back to the camp, and Christa must've gotten away at this point when they were distracted by Carver?
This is all conjecture and "what if" scenarios and guessing at what the original plot could've been, but maybe that's how it played out...o.O
Well, this is what I was thinking. First, Alvin doesn't look and/or act like someone who could just murder somebody with the cold blood, even if it comes to protect his wife and unborn child. Could confrontation with George be the point at which he asks himself for the first time may the baby not have been his? - "Kill a liar"?
I believe Alvin was different before he had to kill George, what evidence of goodness and trust game shows us later on. When Pete brings Clementine to the group, Alvin acts as a voice of reason by calming Rebecca and Nick down. He becomes sympathetic towards Clementine and starts to suggest that they could spare some supplies.
Anyway, I replayed "A House Divided" and noticed a few extra things:
It might indicate that Alvin would not kill George only to take revenge on Carver, because he would never go against the group, he wouldn't risk the prosperity of successful escape they managed to achieve (and put the rest of the group down with him), adding fuel to the fire in order enrage Carver even more - make him more determined to hunt down and punish them.
Then again, what are Alvin's priorities? Rebecca and the baby. It was surely the reason which was used to justify the murder. He and Rebecca care for one another, with Alvin constantly looking out for her. When Alvin is held up he says "I love you Bec" showing he believed that it all was Carver's fault or he just forgave her.
Had Nick witnessed what Alvin did to George? What if Alvin-George and Nick-Matthew accident was nothing but a parallel situation, where one person was killed and the second one made a critical mistake, and then, have to deal with consequences, where one trivial slip means death?
If Clementine tries to defend Nick, Alvin speaks about how his behavior led to the unnecessary death, which he definies as "straight up murder in his book". He kept his morality - even if you kill someone accidentally (or in self-defense), it's still murder, and you have to live with that person's blood on your hands whether you like it or not.
He feels guilty, he doesn't deny what he did, he knows that he's going to face Carver. Like Carver said, they both had "history", which is not easy to forget.
"God knows we are not perfect..."
What do you think?
And sorry for big images/long answer :>
Awesome theories.
It looks like the scenes we're trying to logically explain are just remains of the original plotline. Those will have to be either neatly clarified or forgotten.
Who forced him to surrender? Christa?
Who was the shooter? Christa again?
Well, we have the missing piece. Assuming that Christa was the shooter in both situations, she would've had a gun. From what we saw, she only had a spear which Winston stabbed her leg with, and you can't shoot off anybody's ear using that. Backtracking a bit, we know Christa hold on to her rifle while traveling with Omid and Clem at the beginning of Season 2. She used it to shoot Michelle, then we got 16 moths timeskip. Where did the rifle go? Where is Clementine's pistol? No way they were completely unarmed. If Christa had another one/took Clem's gun, and the scavengers didn't check her for weapons, this could be the shot we heard in the woods.
I mean those two:
Thank you, and I hope you join to discussion. :>
Give me all the cookies.
I would, but I have no idea....yet.
Well-deserved cookies!
I'll wait.
You're waiting long enough for Telltale Games'...games, so you don't have to wait for me xD
And I like these theories. I still hope Christa's alive and whoever was trying to shoot Christa back in the forest, failed miserably.
Well regardless I think it's still fun figuring out what could've been.
Not to mention I keep getting the sneaking suspicion that a lot of this stuff was cut so they'd put it into season 3, or perhaps a dlc. Maybe...
All right, so assuming that the following scene originally was to have taken place in the first ep of season 2 where we first meet the scavengers, and assuming Christa was indeed the one who shot Ralph/Mike like you said (let's assume she still had Clem's hand pistol, as it'd be easy for her to conceal it in the beginning campfire shots if she just had it on her hip under her sweatshirt or something; tho idk, impossibly infinitely-spaced pockets may take a part too
), Christa must've originally had her gun out when confronting the 3 scavengers, rather than just holding her empty hands out in surrender. So maybe Christa was aiming for Ralph, and if Clem distracted the scavengers by throwing a rock, Christa's aim could've been thrown and Ralph got part of his ear off then?
Meaning we are one step ahead! And what now, TT? 2smart4you.
If Christa had the gun tucked under her shirt or something, she could've easily pulled it out in all this turmoil that happened. Its probably the most sensible solution - pretend to surrender, and then try to get away or attack them by suprise. It seems to me that Clementine made this situation worse than it would've been without scavengers noticing her. But then again, what's done is done.
It is possible that Christa shot Ralph/Mike and he passed out due to the shock and blood loss. Perhaps it could be the original situation in which Carver finds him lying unconscious and decides to take him to Howes (Carver managed to return to Howe's and then got back to Cabin in more or less one day?) But it doesn't explain one - how come this gunshot wound healed up so quickly? It was less than one week between scavenger's attack and Clementine meeting Mike. Unless this is the moment when the original story got suddenly changed.
Excellent points!
I never noticed a lot of those little details on Alvin. So are you suggesting that during their confrontation, perhaps George may have told Alvin that Rebecca was carrying Carver's baby somehow, and Alvin could've shot George out of anger etc., probably in addition to his need to escape? Interesting. I can see that happening, and it would make me like Alvin's character even more if he knew the baby wasn't his, and yet he still stuck with Rebecca (even though it seems Rebecca thinks that Alvin doesn't know anything.)
In addition, Carver said that George and Alvin were "friends."
"I remember a guy that was your friend named George."
If this is true, then perhaps in their final confrontation, George, as a caring friend, tried to convince Alvin not to leave the safety of Howe's for the unknown outside world? George may have been looking through rose-colored glasses, (as he was close to Carver, and he also wasn't a prisoner like Alvin was) and so similar to Reggie, he probably thought Carver's set-up wasn't so bad, and that leaving Howe's would be suicide compared to staying. Perhaps in George's desperation and frustration to convince Alvin to stay, he (maybe accidentally) let slip that Rebecca was carrying Carver's baby rather than Alvin's.
Same here. That would be a great addition to his character's development, which is a little sluggish, even though we have pretty big room for interpretation, which I like.
I really like what you said about George as a friend who tried to convince Alvin to stay in Howe's, using the argument about Rebecca's (and baby's) well-being. This would explain why he felt guilty, not only because he had to shoot his friend, but also because he did put his wife and child into a danger he probably know very little to deal with - I believe he and Rebecca spent quite a lot of time in Howe's, with Alvin looking for Rebecca during her pregnancy. I also would like to know how were Cabin's Group first days out on the open, away from all those safe walls, where they were going to and how they came across the Cabin. That must've been a very difficult time for them. I'd love to see more Pete in all of this.
Nick's mother is interesting as well, and this whole situation with the walker bite. All we know is that her death was caused by the cabin group's willingness to help a stranger that had been bitten, who turned, then attacked her, and Nick was forced to kill her. Perhaps this stranger was someone we knew. Luckily, it couldn't be Christa. :>