But neither was slinging a nearly 100lb saltlick on an unconscious man, and I don't hear any of the Kenny fans thinking that was bad.
... because it wasn't. I'm sure you understand the rationale by now.
Preventing the potentially imminent turning of Larry while stuck in a cramped meat locker with nothing to defend themselves with isn't comparable to what Jane did. You can't just look at the fact that both instances involved the desire to protect someone and then act like they're the same/similar. Even if Larry had been miraculously resuscitated before reanimation, he would not have lasted long without both medical equipment and his heart medication. He was dead either way. Making sure he didn't reanimate and kill everyone was undeniably a wise course of action, no matter how gruesome it may have been. Jane, on the other hand, took it upon herself to manipulate a broken/grieving man based upon the suspicion that he could potentially harm Clementine, even though he had never once shown any indication of having any desire to do that. In fact, he had basically only ever shown otherwise. There was no reason for her to take a man's life based on pure baseless speculation and nothing more. Hell, she had only known the guy for what, two days? Her decision to push Kenny into a death match was sick and twisted. Even she admitted it was stupid after the fact.
I guess that's just evil to some people. Not because it's wrong, but because it's Kenny that is the clear danger this time.
I suppose you could argue that Kenny was dangerous... but not in a malicious sense (not to his own people anyway..).
When will people understand Jane was trying to protect Clementine from Kenny, a man that Jane was wary of and perceived as a threat to the s… moreurvival of an eleven year old. Is it good? No. But neither was slinging a nearly 100lb saltlick on an unconscious man, and I don't hear any of the Kenny fans thinking that was bad. In fact, they applaud him for his senseless violent action.
I guess that's just evil to some people. Not because it's wrong, but because it's Kenny that is the clear danger this time.
I really don't get why people don't understand that Jane was only acting in survival, and, in Clem's case, a desperate big sister mode. She's cold because the lost of her sister, in the manner that it happened, hardened her. However, it clearly eats her up inside; not only does she want her sister back, but she also wants a partner that she feels she can depend on, and perhaps keep her from falling too far.
Seeing as she has the mindset that she has to depend only on herself, and her survival, it only makes sense that she would balk, or hesitate, at the thought of risking her own life to help others....especially people she barely knows, and people who don't really care for her well being (other than Luke and Clem). Still despite those thoughts, her actions clearly show a person who's trying/starting to change. Don't bring up Sarah's second death, because nobody was covering her (including Clem....such bad writing...).
Yes, she asked Rebecca about the baby...but is that really something NOT to be asked in a ZA? Food is already scarce, which means Rebecca can't properly breast feed AJ; that means they need formula...which is not guaranteed, when they can barely find food for themselves. Then he's a baby...so he cries, and fusses, which could draw walkers, or alert other people, when sneaking, or hiding. Going thru hordes is dangerous because of that, and despite the comical Alone ending, putting walker guts on a newborn is NOT wise. Then there's the environment; what if you can't find proper shelter from the heat, rain, cold, or snow? Also, the mother and baby needs to be protected, and that means a lot of people could die for people who can't make it on their own.
People keep saying "it's rude", or "insensitive"....but isn't it insensitive to make yourself a burden, or put a burden, on others? It's something that needs to be taken into account, so plans can be made. To her (moral) credit, Jane doesn't bring it up again, and does open the gift shop rather than just leave the soon to be baby/burden.
With Clem, she just really wanted her to survive, because she saw in her both a "little sister" and someone she could potentially travel with who is also reliable AND has the will to live on. She sees Kenny as a danger, and to her leaving Clem with him was the same as what she did with her sister. It also didn't help that she saw another little girl, in Sarah, just die, and Luke died. If you tried to save Luke, then Clem almost died too.
Jane is NOT the monster people like to paint her as. If you're going to give Kenny the benefit of the doubt, due to circumstance, and shit that's happened to him, then the same should be done for Jane. I feel that MyClem is safe with Jane, because Jane NEEDs Clem, and I feel like, if given the opportunity, Clem can influence a change in her.
That's a good point. But her philosophy of how the weak should be left to die if trying to save them will put others in danger could easily evolve at some point to a more Carver-like philosophy about how the weak should be banned from the group to protect the others.
But the whole point of her character arc is her changing that sort of viewpoint and not having it evolve. As the episodes progress, she is changing for the better despite how many people seem to view the whole Kenny v.s Jane thing at the end of episode 5, she was trying to get Kenny to leave so he wouldn't cause trouble to the group. I don't understand why this is being perceived as such a bad thing when she's risking her own life to protect Clem and AJ.
Because obviously choosing to leave the group and leaving someone to die or killing them are very different things that are hardly comparable.
Agreed.
From what I remember at least, he never wanted to kick someone out of the group just because they were weak.
So that automatically makes it okay? I don't get it. When Kenny wants someone to die, it's okay, but when Jane says someone, who's not making an effort to get up, should stay behind because of walkers coming at them that makes her bad?
And I don't remember him wanting to leave Omid behind, but I'm guessing it was just after they had met him and he wasn't a part of the group yet. And even then I'm guessing it was an off-hand comment more than him actively trying to convince everyone that Omid should be left behind.
It was more of an off-hand remark than anything, but you bring up Jane's off-hand remarks, so it's only fitting that his be added too. Btw, it was when the group got separated from Chuck whilst he was killing walkers and they made it to the house, if I remember correctly.
The reasoning for Jane wanting to leave Sarah behind was that she was putting the group in IMMEDIATE danger.
That's a good point. B… moreut her philosophy of how the weak should be left to die if trying to save them will put others in danger could easily evolve at some point to a more Carver-like philosophy about how the weak should be banned from the group to protect the others.
Also, the thing with Rebecca... I don't get what you mean by this exactly.
I'm referring to her trying to talk Clementine into leaving the group with her, because being around a pregnant woman / baby won't be safe. But really the argument is about her overall philosophy being Carver-like and not so much the specifics of what she did or said at various times. Because obviously choosing to leave the group and leaving someone to die or killing them are very different things that are hardly comparable.
I find it funny how you say he never wanted … [view original content]
I do think that it was her plan to get Kenny killed in that fight, either by her hand or Clem's. And I think that one act is so much more evil than anything Kenny has ever done
No, I believe there was more to it than that. I don't believe she wanted to kill Kenny from the beginning, but realized when Kenny wouldn't leave when she asked him to go, that she would have to kill him. (I'm not saying I agree with Jane here; it was a ridiculously stupid plan. I'm just trying to explain what she was thinking.)
Jane felt she had to confront Kenny because he was leading them all on a suicide mission to Wellington. (See everything below the dotted line below to see why this is true, and then meet me back here. Or if you want the abbreviated version, read what's in bold below the line and meet me back here.) She felt that Kenny had to leave the group, as he would not consider any other option rather than going to Wellington. Therefore, her plan was to hide AJ and lie about AJ dying (which was a stupid plan) and ask Kenny to leave the group without violence. At this point, Jane's only known Kenny for about a few days. There's no way she would know for sure what Kenny's reaction to her dumb-AJ plan will be.
Halfway through the fight, they say:
Jane: Just go.
Kenny: I ain’t goin’ nowhere.
Jane: Fine. [Jane charges Kenny with the knife.]
When he refuses to leave peacefully, then she decides to kill him.
I do realize that when Kenny says near the end, "I'll kill you!" Jane says, "I knew you would!" Supposedly from this statement people claim Jane knew that Kenny would kill Jane from the start and consequently she'd have to kill him. But really, halfway through the fight after Kenny wouldn't leave peacefully, this is when Jane knew she had to kill him.
My point is that she wasn't planning on killing Kenny from the beginning. One of her options was to let him go. And so no, I believe this one act is not so much more evil than anything Kenny has ever done, as you think.
Jane believed Kenny was leading the group on a suicide mission to look for Wellington. Remember this is before we have the hindsight of knowing Wellington's actual location.
(copypaste from my past comment..)
Don't forget no one in the game ever says Wellington is actually in Michigan. Kenny says, "It's a big camp up near Michigan."
Jane knew it would take a long time to find Wellington; she says so in the game. Let me break out some math here to estimate how long it could take Clem/Kenny to find it. To keep things simple (we'll have to use somewhat crude assumptions), let's say that Wellington was in Michigan. Just the state of Michigan is about 250,494 square kilometers or about 96,716 square miles. Google says the average hiking speed is about 6 kilometers/hour at the fastest or about 3.7 miles/hour. Assuming Clem/Kenny could see 5 km or 3.1 miles (the curve of the Earth's surface) in either direction to spot Wellington while walking, they'd cover about (5km/direction * 2 directions of North and South * 6 km/hr) = 60 square km/hr at the fastest, or 23.2 sq miles/hr. Soo, assuming they could walk about 12 hours a day, it'd take them about (250,494 sq km * 1 hr/60 sq km) = 4174.9 hrs to search all of Michigan at the fastest, or (4174.9 hrs * 1 day/12 hrs * 1 week/7 days) = 49 weeks!!! to search all of Michigan for Wellington at the fastest. That's almost one year. And that's just one state--just the state of Michigan. There's also Ohio, Wisconsin, and Indiana (and even Canada!) that share borders with Michigan. Keep in mind that the timing would be similar if they had to go all around the border of Michigan, looking through these states and Canada, rather than going through the state of Michigan. And I didn't even include the time it would take them to run into things like snow, walkers, people, rivers, etc.
Finding Wellington in 9 days doesn't make a lick of sense if you don't know where it is. Compare that to Howe's. They knew exactly where Howe's was, and could've gotten there in a day if they had a car, or 9 days directly walking there. Jane was being absolutely appropriately logical about her choice here, in terms of knowledge of the location of the best place to go.
If they had kept pushing to Wellington, in reality (aka if the writers weren't blockheads) the whole group would've starved or frozen to death first. Hell if they'd gone back to Howe's first to get supplies and then went back to find Wellington I would've been okay with that, but Kenny just plain didn't want to do that. So, right now Jane is thinking that Kenny is going to get them all killed by blindly pushing them to Wellington, which will take them forever to find.
I don't hate her, but I do think that it was her plan to get Kenny killed in that fight, either by her hand or Clem's. And I think that one… more act is so much more evil than anything Kenny has ever done, so I do think choosing to shoot Kenny is the wrong choice.
But she's a very interesting character. They did a great job with that scene and the setup, as proven by how much people want to debate this. Tough moral decisions and shades of gray are what this series is all about, after all.
Nice, you didn't even give reasons why his intelligence was below average even though his posts showed he was very smart.
I thought … moreit was pretty obvious, all he ever did was shit on other peoples opinions that weren't his. If it wasn't his, then you're wrong. His threads also progressively got more stupid, like something about Jane being a natural liar or something I don't really remember, joke or not, it was very unintelligent to post that. Anyway i don't have to argue why he was an unintelligent member of the forum since he did have the ban to prove it.
Even if Larry was miraculously resuscitated before reanimation, he would not have lasted long without both medical equipment and his heart medication. He was dead either way.
But neither was slinging a nearly 100lb saltlick on an unconscious man, and I don't hear any of the Kenny fans thinking that was bad.
… more ... because it wasn't. I'm sure you understand the rationale by now.
Preventing the potentially imminent turning of Larry while stuck in a cramped meat locker with nothing to defend themselves with isn't comparable to what Jane did. You can't just look at the fact that both instances involved the desire to protect someone and then act like they're the same/similar. Even if Larry had been miraculously resuscitated before reanimation, he would not have lasted long without both medical equipment and his heart medication. He was dead either way. Making sure he didn't reanimate and kill everyone was undeniably a wise course of action, no matter how gruesome it may have been. Jane, on the other hand, took it upon herself to manipulate a broken/grieving man based upon the suspicion that he could potentially… [view original content]
She knew what Kenny was capable of. I think that she went in trying to fight, but ended trying to kill him. You have to admit, the knife was pretty hasty. She provoked him, but should have talked it out instead.
I do think that it was her plan to get Kenny killed in that fight, either by her hand or Clem's. And I think that one act is so much more ev… moreil than anything Kenny has ever done
No, I believe there was more to it than that. I don't believe she wanted to kill Kenny from the beginning, but realized when Kenny wouldn't leave when she asked him to go, that she would have to kill him. (I'm not saying I agree with Jane here; it was a ridiculously stupid plan. I'm just trying to explain what she was thinking.)
Jane felt she had to confront Kenny because he was leading them all on a suicide mission to Wellington. (See everything below the dotted line below to see why this is true, and then meet me back here. Or if you want the abbreviated version, read what's in bold below the line and meet me back here.) She felt that Kenny had to leave the group, as he would not consider any other option rather than going to Wellington. Therefore, her pla… [view original content]
Even if Larry was miraculously resuscitated before reanimation, he would not have lasted long without both medical equipment and his heart medication. He was dead either way.
Wow. Well now who has the Crawford mentality?
She knew what Kenny was capable of. I think that she went in trying to fight, but ended trying to kill him. You have to admit, the knife was pretty hasty. She provoked him, but should have talked it out instead.
How is that in the least bit anything like Crawford? Larry was essentially stone cold dead laying on the ground. If I had a Crawford-like mentality, I would have wanted him dead for the simple fact that he had a heart condition. That isn't my reasoning though. I was simply being realistic. You can read through my actual explanation in my previous comment.
Even if Larry was miraculously resuscitated before reanimation, he would not have lasted long without both medical equipment and his heart medication. He was dead either way.
Wow. Well now who has the Crawford mentality?
Lol. I said a few times that it was a stupid plan, didn't I? Of course she should've talked it out instead. She should've done a lot of things differently, some of which plain don't fit her character. However TT's writers are clowns, and this is what we got instead....
And I remember you. You were one of the users who said I changed your mind on Jane. How are ya?
She knew what Kenny was capable of. I think that she went in trying to fight, but ended trying to kill him. You have to admit, the knife was pretty hasty. She provoked him, but should have talked it out instead.
Yup. By pulling out the knife, she told Kenny (through body motion) that she was ready to kill him, despite him only slightly pushing past her. She advanced the fight prematurely before they got outside. I also forgot to add in the sheathing of the knife. Thanks.
Uh....she sheathed the knife before he attacked. He also attacked first twice before she retaliated.
The knife came out when he was about… more to pounce on her when on the ground.
When they went outside, she told him to "just go", but he refused (obviously).
I think that she only wanted him to leave, and for him to initiate a fight, but emotions ran high and shit got outta hand.
Good points (not saying I really agree though, I thought neither were like Carver at all)...
but I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who liked both Kenny and Jane (albeit, I still liked Kenny more). Ultimately, I'm with Kenny at the end because I'm loyal, care too much for him, knew Jane was lying from the moment she walked in without the baby, and it's hard to imagine TWD without him at this point (even though he probably won't make it past S3E1 ). But Jane's death still made me really upset because I really liked her and it was clear she cared a lot about Clementine.
So yeah, the second to last major choice was really shitty for me because I was one of the (seemingly) few people who liked both Kenny and Jane a lot. If I went back in time, I'd still pick "Look Away" in a heartbeat, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't be devastated/feel like crap about it. I'm actually curious to see where other people who liked both Kenny and Jane ended up.
Lol. I said a few times that it was a stupid plan, didn't I? Of course she should've talked it out instead. She should've done a lot of thi… morengs differently, some of which plain don't fit her character. However TT's writers are clowns, and this is what we got instead....
And I remember you. You were one of the users who said I changed your mind on Jane. How are ya?
For real, I'm tired of the same comments/threads about how much of a 'sociopath' Jane is and ultimately being made to feel bad for liking her at all. She's logical, and, aside from the Kenny situation, very straight up with people.
Also, this is really well-written along with a lot of your other posts.
I really don't get why people don't understand that Jane was only acting in survival, and, in Clem's case, a desperate big sister mode. She'… mores cold because the lost of her sister, in the manner that it happened, hardened her. However, it clearly eats her up inside; not only does she want her sister back, but she also wants a partner that she feels she can depend on, and perhaps keep her from falling too far.
Seeing as she has the mindset that she has to depend only on herself, and her survival, it only makes sense that she would balk, or hesitate, at the thought of risking her own life to help others....especially people she barely knows, and people who don't really care for her well being (other than Luke and Clem). Still despite those thoughts, her actions clearly show a person who's trying/starting to change. Don't bring up Sarah's second death, because nobody was covering her (including Clem....such bad writing...).
Yes, she asked Re… [view original content]
For real, I'm tired of the same comments/threads about how much of a 'sociopath' Jane is and ultimately being made to feel bad for liking he… morer at all. She's logical, and, aside from the Kenny situation, very straight up with people.
Also, this is really well-written along with a lot of your other posts.
Lead by example, and don't make huge posts about how it sucks to be lumped in with a group of people that applaud a man for senselessly murdering an unconscious father in front of his daughter.
Ugh, I hate it when people generalize. Not all Kenny fans think he's a saint, just putting that out there. I have yet to side with him when … moreit comes to killing Larry in my playthroughs. I personally like Kenny because he's such a flawed character. But with Jane, I just couldn't empathize at all.
(Really getting sick of my replies disappearing..)
I don't think I was there, I haven't been online as much lately. Thankfully, I can only count on one hand the number of times I've lost my cool here. I hope to keep it that way. I try to end things on a civil note too, or at least take the high road.
I had to leave for a day because of... Cough cough...Can't say name...Cough cough...If you were there you would know. I have gotten in a few… more arguments that have been taken too far but others that start kind of rude but end in a friendly manner wishing each other a good day...Strange how things work.
(Copy and pasting an old post, because I am seriously not in the mood to type up a new one stating the same exact thing again.)
Larry dying was a 100 % certainty. Larry didn't just stop breathing or go into cardiac arrest, he had a heart attack. It has to be noted that Larry had a preexisting heart condition that required a specific type of medication that they didn't have access to while locked in a meat locker. Also, CPR alone is not sufficient in reviving someone who just had a heart attack, all it does for the victim is reduce the amount of brain damage done from lack of oxygen until an EMT with the proper equipment arrives. Among the required equipment, an AED is the most important. Obviously, seeing as they're in the middle of an apocalypse and have been locked inside a meat locker by cannibals, nobody was coming to help them.
I'm growing weary of having to say this, but I know that many of you are not aware of what exactly a heart attack is, nor the
necessary treatment it requires.
I believe that several of you are confusing the effects CPR has on a person who is drowning with the effects it has on a person having a heart attack. CPR will revive a drowning victim because they aren't breathing due to water in their lungs/blocking their airway.Their heart has stopped due to the blocked airway, but once unblocked they are usually in the clear, which is why CPR works just fine for a drowning victim.( It should be noted that drowning victims still are required to go to a hospital even after they've been revived, because there may still be water in their lungs. That's off topic though) But it is very different in terms to a heart attack victim.
See, the heart muscle requires a constant supply of oxygen-rich blood to nourish it. The coronary arteries provide the heart with this critical blood supply. It is never confirmed what condition Larry has, but I'm guessing it's coronary heart disease. If you have coronary heart disease, those arteries become narrow and blood cannot flow as well as they should. Fatty matter, calcium, proteins, and inflammatory cells build up within the arteries to form plaques.When the plaque is hard, the outer shell cracks, platelets come to the area, and blood clots form around the plaque. If a blood clot totally blocks the artery, the heart muscle becomes "starved" for oxygen. Within a short time, death of heart muscle cells occurs, causing permanent damage. This is what happens when a heart attack occurs.
As I said before, CPR is not sufficient alone to revive someone who is having a heart attack, it is only meant to keep their heart pumping blood until the paramedics arrive with the proper equipment/training. Let me repeat, CPR does not restart their heart. In the event that the heart has stopped(such as Larry's did) an AED(automated external defibrillator) is required to restart it. In addition, the paramedics' also provide an IV filled with vital nutrients and medicine needed for a heart attack victim's recovery. A recovery which would take 8 weeks mind you, time that you most definitely do not have in the apocalypse. So in the unlikely event that Larry would survive, he would be an even bigger liability in his severely weakened condition. Even if it was indeed a breath Larry was taking, it is extremely unlikely that it would stabilize him, what would most likely happen is another heart attack occurrence. Not to mention, that the medication that Larry needed to prevent a heart attack was not on hand, further sealing his fate. Larry was going to turn, there was no changing that. Kenny didn't kill him, he may have put him down in a violent way, but it was most definitely not murder. The reality of the situation is that Larry was beyond saving at this point in time.
Do you think Kenny knew any of that? The man didn't even know how to take care of his family.
And the whole "medical stats" argument is flimsy anyway because that's not what I'm talking about. I could care less how "bad for Larry it looked." Kenny splashed a fathers brains all over his distraught daughters face.
(Copy and pasting an old post, because I am seriously not in the mood to type up a new one stating the same exact thing again.)
Larry dyi… moreng was a 100 % certainty. Larry didn't just stop breathing or go into cardiac arrest, he had a heart attack. It has to be noted that Larry had a preexisting heart condition that required a specific type of medication that they didn't have access to while locked in a meat locker. Also, CPR alone is not sufficient in reviving someone who just had a heart attack, all it does for the victim is reduce the amount of brain damage done from lack of oxygen until an EMT with the proper equipment arrives. Among the required equipment, an AED is the most important. Obviously, seeing as they're in the middle of an apocalypse and have been locked inside a meat locker by cannibals, nobody was coming to help them.
I'm growing weary of having to say this, but I know that many of you are not aware of what exactly a hear… [view original content]
Uh, yeah? Because most people know that when a person, especially an elderly man with a preexisting heart condition has a heart attack, they require immediate medical attention as well as specific medications to stabilize them. Kenny's not an idiot, this is common knowledge. I am still flabbergasted that so many of you don't know this.
Fine, go on and completely disregard the facts. It was extremely violent, and I still don't like how unsympathetic Kenny was to Lilly, but it doesn't change the fact that it had to be done. Lee, Kenny, Lilly, as well as Clem were locked in a small space with Larry. They would all be at risk had he not been put down, they couldn't afford to just "wait and see".
Do you think Kenny knew any of that? The man didn't even know how to take care of his family.
And the whole "medical stats" argument is f… morelimsy anyway because that's not what I'm talking about. I could care less how "bad for Larry it looked." Kenny splashed a fathers brains all over his distraught daughters face.
Go ahead and continue justifying it though.
Because if he turned, which he 100% would have he could have killed members of the group, Larry was also someone who only cared about himself and practically would have tossed Kenny's son out to die or he would have "Smashed his head in" if it wasn't for Katchaa finding that there was no bite and yet he still didn't stop Larry turning out of revenge, but out of his concerns for the safety of the group.
Do you think Kenny knew any of that? The man didn't even know how to take care of his family.
And the whole "medical stats" argument is f… morelimsy anyway because that's not what I'm talking about. I could care less how "bad for Larry it looked." Kenny splashed a fathers brains all over his distraught daughters face.
Go ahead and continue justifying it though.
but it doesn't change the fact that it had to be done. Lee, Kenny, Lilly, as well as Clem were locked in a small space with Larry. They would all be at risk had he not been put down, they couldn't afford to just "wait and see".
I really don't know what else to say...
Kenny was right? Killing an unconscious man with a saltlick close enough to paint the daughters face with his brain matter is right. Justified and right. And later watching as his "urban pal" Lee was being attacked... I... I'm so done trying.
All I got left to say is fuck Kenny. If Kenny killed Clementine, a lot of you would say he was justified. So no use talking to a brick wall about astrology I guess.
Uh, yeah? Because most people know that when a person, especially an elderly man with a preexisting heart condition has a heart attack, they… more require immediate medical attention as well as specific medications to stabilize them. Kenny's not an idiot, this is common knowledge. I am still flabbergasted that so many of you don't know this.
Fine, go on and completely disregard the facts. It was extremely violent, and I still don't like how unsympathetic Kenny was to Lilly, but it doesn't change the fact that it had to be done. Lee, Kenny, Lilly, as well as Clem were locked in a small space with Larry. They would all be at risk had he not been put down, they couldn't afford to just "wait and see".
Because if he turned, which he 100% would have he could have killed members of the group, Larry was also someone who only cared about himsel… moref and practically would have tossed Kenny's son out to die or he would have "Smashed his head in" if it wasn't for Katchaa finding that there was no bite and yet he still didn't stop Larry turning out of revenge, but out of his concerns for the safety of the group.
OK. I rather call this kind of behavior obsession.
I dislike Jane's character, and I don't approve Kenny's character either. But you NEED both characters to live a secure life. these kind of people are quite important in a apocalypse. think about it: Your winded up with a group of people that never killed a walker before, are afraid of blood and gore and can't stand the smell of decayed / dead meat.
They will bring you down.
Kenny was very protective. but hard to control himself.
Jane was smart and sensible about certain things. but cold.
The player had to choose which direction to go / which poison to take.
People aren't perfect. Everyone / everything has a weakness.
When will people understand Jane was trying to protect Clementine from Kenny, a man that Jane was wary of and perceived as a threat to the s… moreurvival of an eleven year old. Is it good? No. But neither was slinging a nearly 100lb saltlick on an unconscious man, and I don't hear any of the Kenny fans thinking that was bad. In fact, they applaud him for his senseless violent action.
I guess that's just evil to some people. Not because it's wrong, but because it's Kenny that is the clear danger this time.
Unless you do the most sensible thing and dump 'em both.
My problem is that Jane garners much unnecessary hate from Kenny fans not because her actions were unjust, but because she dare try and "bring down the idol, Kenny." It's funny actually, the whole Kenny is still a good guy arguments have lost so much ground that at this point, flipping the blame entirely on Jane is all a lot of Kenny "die-hards" have left. Most Jane fans are more than willing to accept that her decision to hide a baby in a truck was a bit dim. Kenny fans will (for the most part) never admit that part of the blame is on the danger Kenny posed. Or, they'll say he was "flawed" but never actually address any of the flaws that make him so "distinct."
So, a lot of them fall under the "catch 22" argument. An unwinnable cycle of them saying he was awesome because he had flaws. Flaws that are very problematic, but he's awesome. And repeat indefinitely.
Jane: "I NEED you Clementine!"
protect, my ass.
Jane: "I did it for you!"
OK. I rather call this kind of behavior obsession.
I d… moreislike Jane's character, and I don't approve Kenny's character either. But you NEED both characters to live a secure life. these kind of people are quite important in a apocalypse. think about it: Your winded up with a group of people that never killed a walker before, are afraid of blood and gore and can't stand the smell of decayed / dead meat.
They will bring you down.
Kenny was very protective. but hard to control himself.
Jane was smart and sensible about certain things. but cold.
The player had to choose which direction to go / which poison to take.
People aren't perfect. Everyone / everything has a weakness.
So Kenny couldn't just stand behind Larry's head while holding the Saltlick just in case if he turns, while Lee and Lily attempt to revive him? Is it that hard to come up with a plan?
Uh, yeah? Because most people know that when a person, especially an elderly man with a preexisting heart condition has a heart attack, they… more require immediate medical attention as well as specific medications to stabilize them. Kenny's not an idiot, this is common knowledge. I am still flabbergasted that so many of you don't know this.
Fine, go on and completely disregard the facts. It was extremely violent, and I still don't like how unsympathetic Kenny was to Lilly, but it doesn't change the fact that it had to be done. Lee, Kenny, Lilly, as well as Clem were locked in a small space with Larry. They would all be at risk had he not been put down, they couldn't afford to just "wait and see".
Comments
... because it wasn't. I'm sure you understand the rationale by now.
Preventing the potentially imminent turning of Larry while stuck in a cramped meat locker with nothing to defend themselves with isn't comparable to what Jane did. You can't just look at the fact that both instances involved the desire to protect someone and then act like they're the same/similar. Even if Larry had been miraculously resuscitated before reanimation, he would not have lasted long without both medical equipment and his heart medication. He was dead either way. Making sure he didn't reanimate and kill everyone was undeniably a wise course of action, no matter how gruesome it may have been. Jane, on the other hand, took it upon herself to manipulate a broken/grieving man based upon the suspicion that he could potentially harm Clementine, even though he had never once shown any indication of having any desire to do that. In fact, he had basically only ever shown otherwise. There was no reason for her to take a man's life based on pure baseless speculation and nothing more. Hell, she had only known the guy for what, two days? Her decision to push Kenny into a death match was sick and twisted. Even she admitted it was stupid after the fact.
I suppose you could argue that Kenny was dangerous... but not in a malicious sense (not to his own people anyway..).
I really don't get why people don't understand that Jane was only acting in survival, and, in Clem's case, a desperate big sister mode. She's cold because the lost of her sister, in the manner that it happened, hardened her. However, it clearly eats her up inside; not only does she want her sister back, but she also wants a partner that she feels she can depend on, and perhaps keep her from falling too far.
Seeing as she has the mindset that she has to depend only on herself, and her survival, it only makes sense that she would balk, or hesitate, at the thought of risking her own life to help others....especially people she barely knows, and people who don't really care for her well being (other than Luke and Clem). Still despite those thoughts, her actions clearly show a person who's trying/starting to change. Don't bring up Sarah's second death, because nobody was covering her (including Clem....such bad writing...).
Yes, she asked Rebecca about the baby...but is that really something NOT to be asked in a ZA? Food is already scarce, which means Rebecca can't properly breast feed AJ; that means they need formula...which is not guaranteed, when they can barely find food for themselves. Then he's a baby...so he cries, and fusses, which could draw walkers, or alert other people, when sneaking, or hiding. Going thru hordes is dangerous because of that, and despite the comical Alone ending, putting walker guts on a newborn is NOT wise. Then there's the environment; what if you can't find proper shelter from the heat, rain, cold, or snow? Also, the mother and baby needs to be protected, and that means a lot of people could die for people who can't make it on their own.
People keep saying "it's rude", or "insensitive"....but isn't it insensitive to make yourself a burden, or put a burden, on others? It's something that needs to be taken into account, so plans can be made. To her (moral) credit, Jane doesn't bring it up again, and does open the gift shop rather than just leave the soon to be baby/burden.
With Clem, she just really wanted her to survive, because she saw in her both a "little sister" and someone she could potentially travel with who is also reliable AND has the will to live on. She sees Kenny as a danger, and to her leaving Clem with him was the same as what she did with her sister. It also didn't help that she saw another little girl, in Sarah, just die, and Luke died. If you tried to save Luke, then Clem almost died too.
Jane is NOT the monster people like to paint her as. If you're going to give Kenny the benefit of the doubt, due to circumstance, and shit that's happened to him, then the same should be done for Jane. I feel that MyClem is safe with Jane, because Jane NEEDs Clem, and I feel like, if given the opportunity, Clem can influence a change in her.
But the whole point of her character arc is her changing that sort of viewpoint and not having it evolve. As the episodes progress, she is changing for the better despite how many people seem to view the whole Kenny v.s Jane thing at the end of episode 5, she was trying to get Kenny to leave so he wouldn't cause trouble to the group. I don't understand why this is being perceived as such a bad thing when she's risking her own life to protect Clem and AJ.
Agreed.
So that automatically makes it okay? I don't get it. When Kenny wants someone to die, it's okay, but when Jane says someone, who's not making an effort to get up, should stay behind because of walkers coming at them that makes her bad?
It was more of an off-hand remark than anything, but you bring up Jane's off-hand remarks, so it's only fitting that his be added too. Btw, it was when the group got separated from Chuck whilst he was killing walkers and they made it to the house, if I remember correctly.
No, I believe there was more to it than that. I don't believe she wanted to kill Kenny from the beginning, but realized when Kenny wouldn't leave when she asked him to go, that she would have to kill him. (I'm not saying I agree with Jane here; it was a ridiculously stupid plan. I'm just trying to explain what she was thinking.)
Jane felt she had to confront Kenny because he was leading them all on a suicide mission to Wellington. (See everything below the dotted line below to see why this is true, and then meet me back here. Or if you want the abbreviated version, read what's in bold below the line and meet me back here.) She felt that Kenny had to leave the group, as he would not consider any other option rather than going to Wellington. Therefore, her plan was to hide AJ and lie about AJ dying (which was a stupid plan) and ask Kenny to leave the group without violence. At this point, Jane's only known Kenny for about a few days. There's no way she would know for sure what Kenny's reaction to her dumb-AJ plan will be.
Halfway through the fight, they say:
Jane: Just go.
Kenny: I ain’t goin’ nowhere.
Jane: Fine. [Jane charges Kenny with the knife.]
When he refuses to leave peacefully, then she decides to kill him.
I do realize that when Kenny says near the end, "I'll kill you!" Jane says, "I knew you would!" Supposedly from this statement people claim Jane knew that Kenny would kill Jane from the start and consequently she'd have to kill him. But really, halfway through the fight after Kenny wouldn't leave peacefully, this is when Jane knew she had to kill him.
My point is that she wasn't planning on killing Kenny from the beginning. One of her options was to let him go. And so no, I believe this one act is not so much more evil than anything Kenny has ever done, as you think.
Jane believed Kenny was leading the group on a suicide mission to look for Wellington. Remember this is before we have the hindsight of knowing Wellington's actual location.
(copypaste from my past comment..)
Don't forget no one in the game ever says Wellington is actually in Michigan. Kenny says, "It's a big camp up near Michigan."
Jane knew it would take a long time to find Wellington; she says so in the game. Let me break out some math here to estimate how long it could take Clem/Kenny to find it. To keep things simple (we'll have to use somewhat crude assumptions), let's say that Wellington was in Michigan. Just the state of Michigan is about 250,494 square kilometers or about 96,716 square miles. Google says the average hiking speed is about 6 kilometers/hour at the fastest or about 3.7 miles/hour. Assuming Clem/Kenny could see 5 km or 3.1 miles (the curve of the Earth's surface) in either direction to spot Wellington while walking, they'd cover about (5km/direction * 2 directions of North and South * 6 km/hr) = 60 square km/hr at the fastest, or 23.2 sq miles/hr. Soo, assuming they could walk about 12 hours a day, it'd take them about (250,494 sq km * 1 hr/60 sq km) = 4174.9 hrs to search all of Michigan at the fastest, or (4174.9 hrs * 1 day/12 hrs * 1 week/7 days) = 49 weeks!!! to search all of Michigan for Wellington at the fastest. That's almost one year. And that's just one state--just the state of Michigan. There's also Ohio, Wisconsin, and Indiana (and even Canada!) that share borders with Michigan. Keep in mind that the timing would be similar if they had to go all around the border of Michigan, looking through these states and Canada, rather than going through the state of Michigan. And I didn't even include the time it would take them to run into things like snow, walkers, people, rivers, etc.
Finding Wellington in 9 days doesn't make a lick of sense if you don't know where it is. Compare that to Howe's. They knew exactly where Howe's was, and could've gotten there in a day if they had a car, or 9 days directly walking there. Jane was being absolutely appropriately logical about her choice here, in terms of knowledge of the location of the best place to go.
If they had kept pushing to Wellington, in reality (aka if the writers weren't blockheads) the whole group would've starved or frozen to death first. Hell if they'd gone back to Howe's first to get supplies and then went back to find Wellington I would've been okay with that, but Kenny just plain didn't want to do that. So, right now Jane is thinking that Kenny is going to get them all killed by blindly pushing them to Wellington, which will take them forever to find.
eh i have to agree kennys cray cray and that bicth jane is shifty
Gotta go with Green here. Lemoncakes was somewhat of a troll.
Wow. Well now who has the Crawford mentality?
She knew what Kenny was capable of. I think that she went in trying to fight, but ended trying to kill him. You have to admit, the knife was pretty hasty. She provoked him, but should have talked it out instead.
I don't think that CPR works in the world of the Walking Dead.
Uh....she sheathed the knife before he attacked. He also attacked first twice before she retaliated.
The knife came out when he was about to pounce on her when on the ground.
When they went outside, she told him to "just go", but he refused (obviously).
I think that she only wanted him to leave, and for him to initiate a fight, but emotions ran high and shit got outta hand.
How is that in the least bit anything like Crawford? Larry was essentially stone cold dead laying on the ground. If I had a Crawford-like mentality, I would have wanted him dead for the simple fact that he had a heart condition. That isn't my reasoning though. I was simply being realistic. You can read through my actual explanation in my previous comment.
Lol. I said a few times that it was a stupid plan, didn't I?
Of course she should've talked it out instead. She should've done a lot of things differently, some of which plain don't fit her character. However TT's writers are clowns, and this is what we got instead....
And I remember you. You were one of the users who said I changed your mind on Jane.
How are ya?
Yup. By pulling out the knife, she told Kenny (through body motion) that she was ready to kill him, despite him only slightly pushing past her. She advanced the fight prematurely before they got outside. I also forgot to add in the sheathing of the knife. Thanks.
Good points (not saying I really agree though, I thought neither were like Carver at all)...
but I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who liked both Kenny and Jane (albeit, I still liked Kenny more). Ultimately, I'm with Kenny at the end because I'm loyal, care too much for him, knew Jane was lying from the moment she walked in without the baby, and it's hard to imagine TWD without him at this point (even though he probably won't make it past S3E1
). But Jane's death still made me really upset because I really liked her and it was clear she cared a lot about Clementine.
So yeah, the second to last major choice was really shitty for me because I was one of the (seemingly) few people who liked both Kenny and Jane a lot. If I went back in time, I'd still pick "Look Away" in a heartbeat, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't be devastated/feel like crap about it. I'm actually curious to see where other people who liked both Kenny and Jane ended up.
I don't always play TWDG, but when I do, I prefer Molly.
I'm fine, and my opinion is still positive, but I still stuck with Kenny.
Yeah. They both get killed by Kenny. Jane never kills Carver or Kenny, but Kenny kills them.
That's fine. Your opinion dude. Good to hear your opinion is still positive, and good to hear you're fine too.
For real, I'm tired of the same comments/threads about how much of a 'sociopath' Jane is and ultimately being made to feel bad for liking her at all. She's logical, and, aside from the Kenny situation, very straight up with people.
Also, this is really well-written along with a lot of your other posts.
Thanks.
Thanks, man.
I've never thought about it that way before, you my friend deserve my like x 1000
He sure was Poogers555, he sure was.
Words are useless.
Lead by example, and don't make huge posts about how it sucks to be lumped in with a group of people that applaud a man for senselessly murdering an unconscious father in front of his daughter.
(Really getting sick of my replies disappearing..)
I don't think I was there, I haven't been online as much lately. Thankfully, I can only count on one hand the number of times I've lost my cool here. I hope to keep it that way. I try to end things on a civil note too, or at least take the high road.
Then why was the choice given to us? And besides if you give Larry enough compressions he starts breathing again, then Kenny kills him.
(Copy and pasting an old post, because I am seriously not in the mood to type up a new one stating the same exact thing again.)
Larry dying was a 100 % certainty. Larry didn't just stop breathing or go into cardiac arrest, he had a heart attack. It has to be noted that Larry had a preexisting heart condition that required a specific type of medication that they didn't have access to while locked in a meat locker. Also, CPR alone is not sufficient in reviving someone who just had a heart attack, all it does for the victim is reduce the amount of brain damage done from lack of oxygen until an EMT with the proper equipment arrives. Among the required equipment, an AED is the most important. Obviously, seeing as they're in the middle of an apocalypse and have been locked inside a meat locker by cannibals, nobody was coming to help them.
I'm growing weary of having to say this, but I know that many of you are not aware of what exactly a heart attack is, nor the
necessary treatment it requires.
I believe that several of you are confusing the effects CPR has on a person who is drowning with the effects it has on a person having a heart attack. CPR will revive a drowning victim because they aren't breathing due to water in their lungs/blocking their airway.Their heart has stopped due to the blocked airway, but once unblocked they are usually in the clear, which is why CPR works just fine for a drowning victim.( It should be noted that drowning victims still are required to go to a hospital even after they've been revived, because there may still be water in their lungs. That's off topic though) But it is very different in terms to a heart attack victim.
See, the heart muscle requires a constant supply of oxygen-rich blood to nourish it. The coronary arteries provide the heart with this critical blood supply. It is never confirmed what condition Larry has, but I'm guessing it's coronary heart disease. If you have coronary heart disease, those arteries become narrow and blood cannot flow as well as they should. Fatty matter, calcium, proteins, and inflammatory cells build up within the arteries to form plaques.When the plaque is hard, the outer shell cracks, platelets come to the area, and blood clots form around the plaque. If a blood clot totally blocks the artery, the heart muscle becomes "starved" for oxygen. Within a short time, death of heart muscle cells occurs, causing permanent damage. This is what happens when a heart attack occurs.
As I said before, CPR is not sufficient alone to revive someone who is having a heart attack, it is only meant to keep their heart pumping blood until the paramedics arrive with the proper equipment/training. Let me repeat, CPR does not restart their heart. In the event that the heart has stopped(such as Larry's did) an AED(automated external defibrillator) is required to restart it. In addition, the paramedics' also provide an IV filled with vital nutrients and medicine needed for a heart attack victim's recovery. A recovery which would take 8 weeks mind you, time that you most definitely do not have in the apocalypse. So in the unlikely event that Larry would survive, he would be an even bigger liability in his severely weakened condition. Even if it was indeed a breath Larry was taking, it is extremely unlikely that it would stabilize him, what would most likely happen is another heart attack occurrence. Not to mention, that the medication that Larry needed to prevent a heart attack was not on hand, further sealing his fate. Larry was going to turn, there was no changing that. Kenny didn't kill him, he may have put him down in a violent way, but it was most definitely not murder. The reality of the situation is that Larry was beyond saving at this point in time.
Do you think Kenny knew any of that? The man didn't even know how to take care of his family.
And the whole "medical stats" argument is flimsy anyway because that's not what I'm talking about. I could care less how "bad for Larry it looked." Kenny splashed a fathers brains all over his distraught daughters face.
Go ahead and continue justifying it though.
Uh, yeah? Because most people know that when a person, especially an elderly man with a preexisting heart condition has a heart attack, they require immediate medical attention as well as specific medications to stabilize them. Kenny's not an idiot, this is common knowledge. I am still flabbergasted that so many of you don't know this.
Fine, go on and completely disregard the facts. It was extremely violent, and I still don't like how unsympathetic Kenny was to Lilly, but it doesn't change the fact that it had to be done. Lee, Kenny, Lilly, as well as Clem were locked in a small space with Larry. They would all be at risk had he not been put down, they couldn't afford to just "wait and see".
Because if he turned, which he 100% would have he could have killed members of the group, Larry was also someone who only cared about himself and practically would have tossed Kenny's son out to die or he would have "Smashed his head in" if it wasn't for Katchaa finding that there was no bite and yet he still didn't stop Larry turning out of revenge, but out of his concerns for the safety of the group.
Thats because thats him turning.
Then why doesn't he turn if you don't give him compressions?
I really don't know what else to say...
Kenny was right? Killing an unconscious man with a saltlick close enough to paint the daughters face with his brain matter is right. Justified and right. And later watching as his "urban pal" Lee was being attacked... I... I'm so done trying.
All I got left to say is fuck Kenny. If Kenny killed Clementine, a lot of you would say he was justified. So no use talking to a brick wall about astrology I guess.
I'm just gonna shift tones...
How many Kenny's does it take to protect his family?
How many?
It doesn't matter, he's worthless!
(Slight pause)
Jane: "I NEED you Clementine!"
protect, my ass.
Jane: "I did it for you!"
OK. I rather call this kind of behavior obsession.
I dislike Jane's character, and I don't approve Kenny's character either. But you NEED both characters to live a secure life. these kind of people are quite important in a apocalypse. think about it: Your winded up with a group of people that never killed a walker before, are afraid of blood and gore and can't stand the smell of decayed / dead meat.
They will bring you down.
Kenny was very protective. but hard to control himself.
Jane was smart and sensible about certain things. but cold.
The player had to choose which direction to go / which poison to take.
People aren't perfect. Everyone / everything has a weakness.
[removed]
Unless you do the most sensible thing and dump 'em both.
My problem is that Jane garners much unnecessary hate from Kenny fans not because her actions were unjust, but because she dare try and "bring down the idol, Kenny." It's funny actually, the whole Kenny is still a good guy arguments have lost so much ground that at this point, flipping the blame entirely on Jane is all a lot of Kenny "die-hards" have left. Most Jane fans are more than willing to accept that her decision to hide a baby in a truck was a bit dim. Kenny fans will (for the most part) never admit that part of the blame is on the danger Kenny posed. Or, they'll say he was "flawed" but never actually address any of the flaws that make him so "distinct."
So, a lot of them fall under the "catch 22" argument. An unwinnable cycle of them saying he was awesome because he had flaws. Flaws that are very problematic, but he's awesome. And repeat indefinitely.
I liked him, i never knew why people disliked him. I thought he was really smart. We talked all the time.
So Kenny couldn't just stand behind Larry's head while holding the Saltlick just in case if he turns, while Lee and Lily attempt to revive him? Is it that hard to come up with a plan?