Wonder if the writers had an ex-girlfriend in mind when they characterized Jane. :P She's a strong independent woman who'll casually screw… more any hot guy she wants and don't you dare call her out on it!
There is some effort at using Bonnie and Jane to criticize Kenny's "alpha male horseshit", although it's undercut by Bonnie suddenly abandoning Clem and Jane endangering a baby's life. Isn't it possible for a woman to be strong enough to critique men AND actually care about children's welfare?
Christa is still my #1 choice for Season 3 Protagonist. She's presumably as competent as Jane/Molly (implied through the time-skip - she single-handedly took care of Clem over 5 times longer than Lee, and spent virtually all of it alone in the woods), but the encounter with the scavengers would leave her with a leg injury that would slow her down - providing a mix of vulnerability and strength that'd be interesting for a Telltale protagonist. She has a relationship with Clem that's been very under-developed, a reserved personality that'd make her a thoughtful character, and her fate was a lot more ambiguous than Kenny's death was in Season 1.
Also, I think she's pretty. :P Having a crippled black woman as the next protagonist could be a compromise between Lee and Clem.
Or maybe the character shouldn't have existed to begin with.
I'm actually imagining an alternate season where Sarita is alone at the ski-… morelodge with Walter & Matt, and her affection towards children is balanced by her otherwise cold demeanor towards adults.
This Season could've done well to have combined several characters rather than spread them out for body-count purposes. Jane, Mike and Reggie were redundant, Kenny did a lot of things that would have made sense in the hands of Nick (recklessly suicidal actions like taking Carver's beating) or Carlos (murdering Carver, delivering Rebecca's baby), Sarah's grief could have been handled more sympathetically, and I could keep going.
I guess my alternate version of Season 2 would probably have given most of the female characters a more prominent role.
Same. I really, really want her to be the Season 3 protagonist. I think it has a lot of potential, because we know her personality, but she's also kind of stoic enough that she'd be a great character to have as a choice-maker. And through it we could learn more about what happened to her baby and how she took care of Clementine. Her entire story line could revolve around finding Clementine!
And yeah, like, whenever people suggest (for example) Molly or Lilly for Season 3 Protagonist I cringe a little because after having a black girl, it feels like a step backwards, in a way? Christa would keep with that empowering consistency, and the fact she's an adult would make a lot of things... a lot easier. Don't get me wrong, I like Clementine, but making a child the player character for a choice-based video game wasn't a very good idea.
Christa is still my #1 choice for Season 3 Protagonist. She's presumably as competent as Jane/Molly (implied through the time-skip - she si… morengle-handedly took care of Clem over 5 times longer than Lee, and spent virtually all of it alone in the woods), but the encounter with the scavengers would leave her with a leg injury that would slow her down - providing a mix of vulnerability and strength that'd be interesting for a Telltale protagonist. She has a relationship with Clem that's been very under-developed, a reserved personality that'd make her a thoughtful character, and her fate was a lot more ambiguous than Kenny's death was in Season 1.
Also, I think she's pretty. :P Having a crippled black woman as the next protagonist could be a compromise between Lee and Clem.
I guess my alternate version of Season 2 would probably have given most of the female characters a more prominent role.
You're a cool person, Bokor.
But yeah I fully agree. Like, I noticed that Nick's story arc is completely dropped the moment Kenny's introduced. Bringing him back robbed so many unique characters of their potential. It's like... why even bother taking the time to introduce them and give them nice character models and everything if you're not going to utilize them to their full potential, and keep beating a dead fisherman instead?
This Season could've done well to have combined several characters rather than spread them out for body-count purposes. Jane, Mike and Regg… moreie were redundant, Kenny did a lot of things that would have made sense in the hands of Nick (recklessly suicidal actions like taking Carver's beating) or Carlos (murdering Carver, delivering Rebecca's baby), Sarah's grief could have been handled more sympathetically, and I could keep going.
I guess my alternate version of Season 2 would probably have given most of the female characters a more prominent role.
Telltale did notice a parallel between Nick and Kenny - they deliberately showed him in the first episode's trailer after saying "Kenny's fate will be explored" in order to prime fans for Kenny's return. Sadly, beyond a few dialogue exchanges where Kenny mocks Nick for being a "boy", Nick himself is neglected.
A subtext that I haven't seen anyone pick up on is the fact that Nick's depression was borne in part from him not being able to handle societ's idea of "being a man" i.e. a killer. The story in which Pete mocks him for being too "soft" to kill a deer strengthened my empathy for Nick while making Pete seem dickish. While Pete and Luke genuinely love him, the ways in which they try to 'strengthen' him actually mess him up - Pete is too harsh on Nick while not showing his true affection for him, while Luke's unflappable demeanor only fuels his insecurity.
I wish I could say that Season 2 was truly criticizing the ways in which our idea of "manhood" leads to broken messes and violent bastards like Nick, Kenny and Carver. Unfortunately, the alternative posed to this is a deceptive sociopath who whines about how hard it is to mistreat others and ultimately leaves a baby to die.
The extremely sympathetic light in which Kenny is portrayed outweighs the more ambiguous/unpleasant territory that Jane lies in, and while I dislike either I do wonder if gender expectations play into it. Kenny and Carlos are praised for being "father figures", even if it leads to them beating up crippled boys and locking up girls to die, while Jane is crucified for being callous and daring to kill men.
I guess my alternate version of Season 2 would probably have given most of the female characters a more prominent role.
You're a coo… morel person, Bokor.
But yeah I fully agree. Like, I noticed that Nick's story arc is completely dropped the moment Kenny's introduced. Bringing him back robbed so many unique characters of their potential. It's like... why even bother taking the time to introduce them and give them nice character models and everything if you're not going to utilize them to their full potential, and keep beating a dead fisherman instead?
I've picked up on that, actually, and done a bit of writing on it--both fan fiction and just analysis stuff. Nick's my favorite character and it was clear to me from the beginning that a large part of his insecurity is in the fact that he probably feels like he doesn't live up to the masculine standard that was set for him (along with having a neglectful father, so his male role model stuff is all skewed in this respect). The deer story makes it clear he was born inherently as an innocent pacifist, but the "tough love" he received from Pete, the expectations of manhood, and ultimately the pressures and tragedies of the apocalypse are what turned him into a "killer."
And you're so absolutely right in that this would have been such a fascinating aspect to explore, because it's a concept that's applicable outside of an apocalypse setting. It's about our actual society. This is why I wish Pete had lived longer. His relationship with Nick was so complex and fascinating and real to me that it felt like such a waste, and this kind of theme would have been perfect to explore with them. I mean, clearly he did care about Nick and want was best for him, but, to use Nick's own words, he wasn't built to be that kind of person. But society had kind of beat it into Pete that it's the only way a man has to be.
Gender expectations absolutely play a role into it. Kenny's role as a father figure was milked past due, but Christa's role as a mother figure for sixteen months even after enduring literally the same hardships as Kenny is virtually ignored. Christa is simply *expected *to nurture Clementine because she's a woman, even though she has no blood relation to her and is grieving the deaths of her boyfriend and unborn child (arguably, indirectly, at the hands of the girl she has to care for), and when she does, fans are furious at her for not doing it with a smile on her face. But Kenny gives Clementine a hug and everyone's rolling on the floor crying.
Telltale did notice a parallel between Nick and Kenny - they deliberately showed him in the first episode's trailer after saying "Kenny's fa… morete will be explored" in order to prime fans for Kenny's return. Sadly, beyond a few dialogue exchanges where Kenny mocks Nick for being a "boy", Nick himself is neglected.
A subtext that I haven't seen anyone pick up on is the fact that Nick's depression was borne in part from him not being able to handle societ's idea of "being a man" i.e. a killer. The story in which Pete mocks him for being too "soft" to kill a deer strengthened my empathy for Nick while making Pete seem dickish. While Pete and Luke genuinely love him, the ways in which they try to 'strengthen' him actually mess him up - Pete is too harsh on Nick while not showing his true affection for him, while Luke's unflappable demeanor only fuels his insecurity.
I wish I could say that Season 2 was truly criticizing the ways in which our… [view original content]
You can also notice a double standard between Pete and Christa's treatment of their charges. A lot of people give Christa shit for being cold and resentful towards Clementine, ignoring the fact that she's kept alive a girl who she owes nothing to, and hasn't even verbally abused her unlike a certain fisherman. At the same time, I haven't seen anyone criticize Pete for being harsh on Nick and garnering his resentment. Perhaps this is because more time was spent developing Nick and Pete's relationship so that we could see they truly cared for each other despite their inability to express it, or perhaps we expect women to be nurturing and freak out when they get exhausted about it.
Just like how Clem's been criticized for being "cold." Or Jane is criticized for, well, everything. I also find it interesting that Rebecca's 'redemption' for being bizarrely hostile towards a little girl is derived from having her constantly regret "betraying" Alvin and being totally loving towards her baby - emphasizing her motherly side and wifely loyalty in order to 'soften' her, eventually culminating in her quietly slipping away and everyone calmly saying "there was nothing we could do."
I've picked up on that, actually, and done a bit of writing on it--both fan fiction and just analysis stuff. Nick's my favorite character an… mored it was clear to me from the beginning that a large part of his insecurity is in the fact that he probably feels like he doesn't live up to the masculine standard that was set for him (along with having a neglectful father, so his male role model stuff is all skewed in this respect). The deer story makes it clear he was born inherently as an innocent pacifist, but the "tough love" he received from Pete, the expectations of manhood, and ultimately the pressures and tragedies of the apocalypse are what turned him into a "killer."
And you're so absolutely right in that this would have been such a fascinating aspect to explore, because it's a concept that's applicable outside of an apocalypse setting. It's about our actual society. This is why I wish Pete had lived longer. His relationship with Nick was s… [view original content]
Perhaps this is because more time was spent developing Nick and Pete's relationship so that we could see they truly cared for each other despite their inability to express it, or perhaps we expect women to be nurturing and freak out when they get exhausted about it.
Probably a bit of both. Speaking as someone who's as conscious of this treatment as you are, it's often difficult for me to remember how Pete's "role" in Nick's life was ultimately toxic because my last impression of him is the very heartfelt declaration of paternal love for him in his dying moments. We don't get a moment like that with Christa. It's all about impressions. There's a similarity with how people regard Kenny and Lilly. Kenny is introduced during a calm moment, and he's amicable and has a very sweet family. Lilly is introduced during a moment of high stress, is giving out intimidating orders, and her family is an even more intimidating father who wants to leave a child to die. But we're meant to choose sides. Obviously people will be biased towards Kenny, because he's set up to be more likable.
Outspoken female characters will always earn the ire of fans, and when you don't give them that same "affection" moment that male characters they're meant to parallel get, it's a complete imbalance. They just don't get a fighting chance. The only time they really actually employed that kind of balance was with Molly, who's sister back story and affection towards Clementine "balanced" her abrasiveness.
But even then, it's like... we SHOULDN'T have to have these weights to balance them out. People will straight out love the most miserable of male characters and take any chance they can to find ways to redeem them (remember that one thread with the screencap of Troy frowning while Carver beat Kenny?), but if you're a woman and you're not redeeming yourself by being the most motherly you possibly can, then you might as well
I'll be honest--I think it is redeeming for any character to be caring, regardless of gender. I wouldn't change Molly's back story, and I was happy to see Rebecca care for Clementne (though it... really came out of nowhere after her initial hostility).
But you're right. Basically, what it boils down to is that the fathers in the game are lauded for saying "I love you", but the women are expected to say it. When men don't do it, they're just average. When women don't do it, they're despicable.
emphasizing her motherly side and wifely loyalty in order to 'soften' her, eventually culminating in her quietly slipping away and everyone calmly saying "there was nothing we could do."
A bit unrelated but I just need to say right now that Rebecca should have been the one to kill Carver. Not Kenny.
You can also notice a double standard between Pete and Christa's treatment of their charges. A lot of people give Christa shit for being co… moreld and resentful towards Clementine, ignoring the fact that she's kept alive a girl who she owes nothing to, and hasn't even verbally abused her unlike a certain fisherman. At the same time, I haven't seen anyone criticize Pete for being harsh on Nick and garnering his resentment. Perhaps this is because more time was spent developing Nick and Pete's relationship so that we could see they truly cared for each other despite their inability to express it, or perhaps we expect women to be nurturing and freak out when they get exhausted about it.
Just like how Clem's been criticized for being "cold." Or Jane is criticized for, well, everything. I also find it interesting that Rebecca's 'redemption' for being bizarrely hostile towards a little girl is derived from having her constantly regret "betraying… [view original content]
And that comes down to Jane. While leaving a baby out in the cold and pretending to have killed it is an extreme that makes her unsympathetic in my eyes, I don't actually think she wanted AJ dead. Lacking a maternal instinct doesn't in itself make her a bad woman - it's the other screw-ups she makes at the cost of Arvo, Sarah and Luke that make her unlikable to me.
Mind you, she does technically have more development than Molly does, and she does regain her humanity in a slightly more plausible way than Kenny: If you remain silent when encountering Gill's family at Howe's, she'll decide on her own to let them in. She remains hesitant and awkward, whereas Kenny's "redemption" amounts to him suddenly groveling and crying when earlier he was a hurricane of rage.
Perhaps this is because more time was spent developing Nick and Pete's relationship so that we could see they truly cared for each other des… morepite their inability to express it, or perhaps we expect women to be nurturing and freak out when they get exhausted about it.
Probably a bit of both. Speaking as someone who's as conscious of this treatment as you are, it's often difficult for me to remember how Pete's "role" in Nick's life was ultimately toxic because my last impression of him is the very heartfelt declaration of paternal love for him in his dying moments. We don't get a moment like that with Christa. It's all about impressions. There's a similarity with how people regard Kenny and Lilly. Kenny is introduced during a calm moment, and he's amicable and has a very sweet family. Lilly is introduced during a moment of high stress, is giving out intimidating orders, and her family is an even more intimidating father who wants to leav… [view original content]
Oh, no, I don't think she did, either. If Jane genuinely wanted AJ dead, I think... AJ would be dead. She doesn't fuck around. She would have just done it.
I'll always resent Jane for how she regarded Sarah, but honestly she still remains a fascinating character in my eyes. I wish she'd been done differently*, yeah, but I dunno. She just interests me. And you're absolutely right--there's, at the very least, a consistency to her character. I was very frustrated because when the thing with Gill's family was pointed out on tumblr, people were like, "Oh, but she made Clementine pick first and allowed the guilt to lie on her shoulders rather than her own" and yeah, realistically it's shitty, but it's a thematically heavy video game where they made the mistake of making a child the protagonist. Literally everyone else imposes similar unrealistic and manipulative expectations on Clementine, but we just accept it--but when Jane does it, suddenly it's yet another problematic behavior added to the list. That's frustrating to me. It feels like a double standard, honestly, when people will accept it's "just how the game has to be" when a child needs to hack a woman's arm off, but when one expects a child to make a decision, she's the devil.
And it ties right back into the motherly instinct problem--it's not a very "motherly" thing to do, to make a child make heavy decisions. Yet how "fatherly" was it of Kenny to insist Clementine be the one to bring the walky-talky to Luke, even if she doesn't want to? We even had Mike there to directly address it, but the general attitude towards that was "lol Clem's badass she can do it." If Clementine doesn't answer, at least Jane steps up. With Kenny, there's no choice. You HAVE to bring it to Luke.
*A bit off topic, but in terms of making her less like a Molly expy, I kind of wish Jane had been Jaime instead. I feel like it would have been a lot more fascinating to see all of this coming from the girl that had been left behind and rose from the ashes, rather than the one who did it. It would have made her seem a lot more badass and mysterious, and while I would have sympathized with her more, the way she treated Sarah would have made sense in a different kind of way, because then it would have been her not understanding why other people can't just "get over it" and move on like she did--in turn, making her a better match to Luke, who couldn't accept why Nick couldn't "move on" past his adversities. And ultimately, it would have made the ending a lot more shocking.
And that comes down to Jane. While leaving a baby out in the cold and pretending to have killed it is an extreme that makes her unsympathet… moreic in my eyes, I don't actually think she wanted AJ dead. Lacking a maternal instinct doesn't in itself make her a bad woman - it's the other screw-ups she makes at the cost of Arvo, Sarah and Luke that make her unlikable to me.
Mind you, she does technically have more development than Molly does, and she does regain her humanity in a slightly more plausible way than Kenny: If you remain silent when encountering Gill's family at Howe's, she'll decide on her own to let them in. She remains hesitant and awkward, whereas Kenny's "redemption" amounts to him suddenly groveling and crying when earlier he was a hurricane of rage.
Do you mean that you would have rather seen the little sister rather than Jane? It's never made clear how old she is, but I assume Jaime was around the same age as Becca, Michelle and Sarah.
I wonder if, in an earlier draft (one where Shel & Becca didn't go to Howe's), the sisterly duo WAS Shel & Becca. I can imagine Jaime having a personality similar to Becca - presenting a tough, unpleasant exterior while deeply depressed and out of her depth without her big sister. Having to deal with Sarah could be painful because it feels too similar to what she's feeling, while interacting with Clem is impeded by the emotional impairments they've both suffered.
I do wonder what would've happened if Sarah was to live long enough to prove Jane wrong. Jane never apologized to Arvo for her part in provoking him, so would she be too proud/awkward to apologize to Sarah for doubting her?
Oh, no, I don't think she did, either. If Jane genuinely wanted AJ dead, I think... AJ would be dead. She doesn't fuck around. She would hav… moree just done it.
I'll always resent Jane for how she regarded Sarah, but honestly she still remains a fascinating character in my eyes. I wish she'd been done differently*, yeah, but I dunno. She just interests me. And you're absolutely right--there's, at the very least, a consistency to her character. I was very frustrated because when the thing with Gill's family was pointed out on tumblr, people were like, "Oh, but she made Clementine pick first and allowed the guilt to lie on her shoulders rather than her own" and yeah, realistically it's shitty, but it's a thematically heavy video game where they made the mistake of making a child the protagonist. Literally everyone else imposes similar unrealistic and manipulative expectations on Clementine, but we just accept it--but when Jane does it, suddenly i… [view original content]
I'd just like to pop in to say it's a pleasure reading this conversation between you two. Very insightful observations by you both, and a refreshing change from other topics.
And @skoothz, would you be so kind as to provide a link to your fanfiction? o.o I'm curious to read it. Thanks
Though I also have to say, I'm not sure Jaime would've been like Becca, at least not right away anyway. Jane claims that Jaime thought Jane was her best friend, pre-ZA at least. To see someone like Jane in such a good light, Jaime must have been optimistic to the point of being naive, and that naivety probably fractured once the ZA broke out. Possibly post-ZA Jaime realized her boundless optimism wouldn't help her parents or love ones survive, and either this realization or realizing the truth that Jane wasn't as perfect as she'd always thought could have left Jaime depressed and not wanting to go on. If Jaime had survived after Jane had left her on the other hand, I could see her having a more Becca-like personality.
Do you mean that you would have rather seen the little sister rather than Jane? It's never made clear how old she is, but I assume Jaime wa… mores around the same age as Becca, Michelle and Sarah.
I wonder if, in an earlier draft (one where Shel & Becca didn't go to Howe's), the sisterly duo WAS Shel & Becca. I can imagine Jaime having a personality similar to Becca - presenting a tough, unpleasant exterior while deeply depressed and out of her depth without her big sister. Having to deal with Sarah could be painful because it feels too similar to what she's feeling, while interacting with Clem is impeded by the emotional impairments they've both suffered.
I do wonder what would've happened if Sarah was to live long enough to prove Jane wrong. Jane never apologized to Arvo for her part in provoking him, so would she be too proud/awkward to apologize to Sarah for doubting her?
Are we allowed to share fan fiction links on threads? I feel like I read a rule somewhere saying you can't, but I could be wrong. If we can't I can just PM you.
I'd just like to pop in to say it's a pleasure reading this conversation between you two. Very insightful observations by you both, and a re… morefreshing change from other topics.
And @skoothz, would you be so kind as to provide a link to your fanfiction? o.o I'm curious to read it. Thanks
Though I also have to say, I'm not sure Jaime would've been like Becca, at least not right away anyway. Jane claims that Jaime thought Jane was her best friend, pre-ZA at least. To see someone like Jane in such a good light, Jaime must have been optimistic to the point of being naive, and that naivety probably fractured once the ZA broke out. Possibly post-ZA Jaime realized her boundless optimism wouldn't help her parents or love ones survive, and either this realization or realizing the truth that Jane wasn't as perfect as she'd always thought could have left Jaime depressed and not wanting to go on. If Jaime had survived after Jane had left her on the other hand, I could see her having a more Becca-like personality.
Nah, what would Molly need a community for? She's already had history with communities, it's not really in her character to be in a community, although Jane didn't seem to want to be apart of the community either, all we know is that they found her covered in gore.
Aw, thanks!
Are we allowed to share fan fiction links on threads? I feel like I read a rule somewhere saying you can't, but I could be wrong. If we can't I can just PM you.
Aw, thanks!
Are we allowed to share fan fiction links on threads? I feel like I read a rule somewhere saying you can't, but I could be wrong. If we can't I can just PM you.
NO NO NO! While Molly and Jane were both interesting character's, both could take care of themselves, they are both different character's a… morend I would rather Telltale not re-use the same characters over and over. We could even assume it was Molly that saved Kenny in Savannah and she was with Kenny at the lodge. That would have been a reasonable way to bring her into season two, but then at Howe's they could have met Jane just like we did and have both character's in the group. I would prefer that over replacing one with the other!
Sorry it took so long, I lost track of the thread.
I have a few things I've written, but here's the one I'm currently working on. I just put up chapter four this morning. It's... actually about this thread's subject, believe it or not; Molly in Season 2. Jane still exists, but Molly does take her role to a degree, and they'll serve as foils to each other later on.
Thanks for showing interest! And mods, I apologize if it wasn't appropriate for me to post this, but hey, it is kind of relevant to the thread, isn't it?
They had some similarities, but I feel they were different enough to warrant being their own characters. I actually liked Jane, and Kenny. You can imagine how hard that final scene was with the gun. Serve me right liking both people.
I think Molly would have a better relationship with Kenny, and also everybody would have respected her as an "experienced survivor", so maybe the group fallout and the last situation would have been avoided.
I dunno... Molly really didn't like Kenny very much, if I recall correctly? While I can't imagine her being as abrasive as Jane, I don't see them being buddy-buddy and can definitely see some major disagreements.
I think Molly would have a better relationship with Kenny, and also everybody would have respected her as an "experienced survivor", so maybe the group fallout and the last situation would have been avoided.
I dunno... Molly really didn't like Kenny very much, if I recall correctly? While I can't imagine her being as abrasive as Jane, I don't see them being buddy-buddy and can definitely see some major disagreements.
Yeah, and to the best of my knowledge she doesn't get much friendlier with him. The only people she seems to actually like are Lee and Clementine, and even then her warming up to Lee is kind of determinant.
Comments
... This is why Christa and Molly need to come back.
Thats fuckin stupid ben
Christa is still my #1 choice for Season 3 Protagonist. She's presumably as competent as Jane/Molly (implied through the time-skip - she single-handedly took care of Clem over 5 times longer than Lee, and spent virtually all of it alone in the woods), but the encounter with the scavengers would leave her with a leg injury that would slow her down - providing a mix of vulnerability and strength that'd be interesting for a Telltale protagonist. She has a relationship with Clem that's been very under-developed, a reserved personality that'd make her a thoughtful character, and her fate was a lot more ambiguous than Kenny's death was in Season 1.
Also, I think she's pretty. :P Having a crippled black woman as the next protagonist could be a compromise between Lee and Clem.
Whoooah that would have been neat!
This Season could've done well to have combined several characters rather than spread them out for body-count purposes. Jane, Mike and Reggie were redundant, Kenny did a lot of things that would have made sense in the hands of Nick (recklessly suicidal actions like taking Carver's beating) or Carlos (murdering Carver, delivering Rebecca's baby), Sarah's grief could have been handled more sympathetically, and I could keep going.
I guess my alternate version of Season 2 would probably have given most of the female characters a more prominent role.
Same. I really, really want her to be the Season 3 protagonist. I think it has a lot of potential, because we know her personality, but she's also kind of stoic enough that she'd be a great character to have as a choice-maker. And through it we could learn more about what happened to her baby and how she took care of Clementine. Her entire story line could revolve around finding Clementine!
And yeah, like, whenever people suggest (for example) Molly or Lilly for Season 3 Protagonist I cringe a little because after having a black girl, it feels like a step backwards, in a way? Christa would keep with that empowering consistency, and the fact she's an adult would make a lot of things... a lot easier. Don't get me wrong, I like Clementine, but making a child the player character for a choice-based video game wasn't a very good idea.
You're a cool person, Bokor.
But yeah I fully agree. Like, I noticed that Nick's story arc is completely dropped the moment Kenny's introduced. Bringing him back robbed so many unique characters of their potential. It's like... why even bother taking the time to introduce them and give them nice character models and everything if you're not going to utilize them to their full potential, and keep beating a dead fisherman instead?
Telltale did notice a parallel between Nick and Kenny - they deliberately showed him in the first episode's trailer after saying "Kenny's fate will be explored" in order to prime fans for Kenny's return. Sadly, beyond a few dialogue exchanges where Kenny mocks Nick for being a "boy", Nick himself is neglected.
A subtext that I haven't seen anyone pick up on is the fact that Nick's depression was borne in part from him not being able to handle societ's idea of "being a man" i.e. a killer. The story in which Pete mocks him for being too "soft" to kill a deer strengthened my empathy for Nick while making Pete seem dickish. While Pete and Luke genuinely love him, the ways in which they try to 'strengthen' him actually mess him up - Pete is too harsh on Nick while not showing his true affection for him, while Luke's unflappable demeanor only fuels his insecurity.
I wish I could say that Season 2 was truly criticizing the ways in which our idea of "manhood" leads to broken messes and violent bastards like Nick, Kenny and Carver. Unfortunately, the alternative posed to this is a deceptive sociopath who whines about how hard it is to mistreat others and ultimately leaves a baby to die.
The extremely sympathetic light in which Kenny is portrayed outweighs the more ambiguous/unpleasant territory that Jane lies in, and while I dislike either I do wonder if gender expectations play into it. Kenny and Carlos are praised for being "father figures", even if it leads to them beating up crippled boys and locking up girls to die, while Jane is crucified for being callous and daring to kill men.
I've picked up on that, actually, and done a bit of writing on it--both fan fiction and just analysis stuff. Nick's my favorite character and it was clear to me from the beginning that a large part of his insecurity is in the fact that he probably feels like he doesn't live up to the masculine standard that was set for him (along with having a neglectful father, so his male role model stuff is all skewed in this respect). The deer story makes it clear he was born inherently as an innocent pacifist, but the "tough love" he received from Pete, the expectations of manhood, and ultimately the pressures and tragedies of the apocalypse are what turned him into a "killer."
And you're so absolutely right in that this would have been such a fascinating aspect to explore, because it's a concept that's applicable outside of an apocalypse setting. It's about our actual society. This is why I wish Pete had lived longer. His relationship with Nick was so complex and fascinating and real to me that it felt like such a waste, and this kind of theme would have been perfect to explore with them. I mean, clearly he did care about Nick and want was best for him, but, to use Nick's own words, he wasn't built to be that kind of person. But society had kind of beat it into Pete that it's the only way a man has to be.
Gender expectations absolutely play a role into it. Kenny's role as a father figure was milked past due, but Christa's role as a mother figure for sixteen months even after enduring literally the same hardships as Kenny is virtually ignored. Christa is simply *expected *to nurture Clementine because she's a woman, even though she has no blood relation to her and is grieving the deaths of her boyfriend and unborn child (arguably, indirectly, at the hands of the girl she has to care for), and when she does, fans are furious at her for not doing it with a smile on her face. But Kenny gives Clementine a hug and everyone's rolling on the floor crying.
You can also notice a double standard between Pete and Christa's treatment of their charges. A lot of people give Christa shit for being cold and resentful towards Clementine, ignoring the fact that she's kept alive a girl who she owes nothing to, and hasn't even verbally abused her unlike a certain fisherman. At the same time, I haven't seen anyone criticize Pete for being harsh on Nick and garnering his resentment. Perhaps this is because more time was spent developing Nick and Pete's relationship so that we could see they truly cared for each other despite their inability to express it, or perhaps we expect women to be nurturing and freak out when they get exhausted about it.
Just like how Clem's been criticized for being "cold." Or Jane is criticized for, well, everything. I also find it interesting that Rebecca's 'redemption' for being bizarrely hostile towards a little girl is derived from having her constantly regret "betraying" Alvin and being totally loving towards her baby - emphasizing her motherly side and wifely loyalty in order to 'soften' her, eventually culminating in her quietly slipping away and everyone calmly saying "there was nothing we could do."
Probably a bit of both. Speaking as someone who's as conscious of this treatment as you are, it's often difficult for me to remember how Pete's "role" in Nick's life was ultimately toxic because my last impression of him is the very heartfelt declaration of paternal love for him in his dying moments. We don't get a moment like that with Christa. It's all about impressions. There's a similarity with how people regard Kenny and Lilly. Kenny is introduced during a calm moment, and he's amicable and has a very sweet family. Lilly is introduced during a moment of high stress, is giving out intimidating orders, and her family is an even more intimidating father who wants to leave a child to die. But we're meant to choose sides. Obviously people will be biased towards Kenny, because he's set up to be more likable.
Outspoken female characters will always earn the ire of fans, and when you don't give them that same "affection" moment that male characters they're meant to parallel get, it's a complete imbalance. They just don't get a fighting chance. The only time they really actually employed that kind of balance was with Molly, who's sister back story and affection towards Clementine "balanced" her abrasiveness.
But even then, it's like... we SHOULDN'T have to have these weights to balance them out. People will straight out love the most miserable of male characters and take any chance they can to find ways to redeem them (remember that one thread with the screencap of Troy frowning while Carver beat Kenny?), but if you're a woman and you're not redeeming yourself by being the most motherly you possibly can, then you might as well
I'll be honest--I think it is redeeming for any character to be caring, regardless of gender. I wouldn't change Molly's back story, and I was happy to see Rebecca care for Clementne (though it... really came out of nowhere after her initial hostility).
But you're right. Basically, what it boils down to is that the fathers in the game are lauded for saying "I love you", but the women are expected to say it. When men don't do it, they're just average. When women don't do it, they're despicable.
A bit unrelated but I just need to say right now that Rebecca should have been the one to kill Carver. Not Kenny.
And that comes down to Jane. While leaving a baby out in the cold and pretending to have killed it is an extreme that makes her unsympathetic in my eyes, I don't actually think she wanted AJ dead. Lacking a maternal instinct doesn't in itself make her a bad woman - it's the other screw-ups she makes at the cost of Arvo, Sarah and Luke that make her unlikable to me.
Mind you, she does technically have more development than Molly does, and she does regain her humanity in a slightly more plausible way than Kenny: If you remain silent when encountering Gill's family at Howe's, she'll decide on her own to let them in. She remains hesitant and awkward, whereas Kenny's "redemption" amounts to him suddenly groveling and crying when earlier he was a hurricane of rage.
Oh, no, I don't think she did, either. If Jane genuinely wanted AJ dead, I think... AJ would be dead. She doesn't fuck around. She would have just done it.
I'll always resent Jane for how she regarded Sarah, but honestly she still remains a fascinating character in my eyes. I wish she'd been done differently*, yeah, but I dunno. She just interests me. And you're absolutely right--there's, at the very least, a consistency to her character. I was very frustrated because when the thing with Gill's family was pointed out on tumblr, people were like, "Oh, but she made Clementine pick first and allowed the guilt to lie on her shoulders rather than her own" and yeah, realistically it's shitty, but it's a thematically heavy video game where they made the mistake of making a child the protagonist. Literally everyone else imposes similar unrealistic and manipulative expectations on Clementine, but we just accept it--but when Jane does it, suddenly it's yet another problematic behavior added to the list. That's frustrating to me. It feels like a double standard, honestly, when people will accept it's "just how the game has to be" when a child needs to hack a woman's arm off, but when one expects a child to make a decision, she's the devil.
And it ties right back into the motherly instinct problem--it's not a very "motherly" thing to do, to make a child make heavy decisions. Yet how "fatherly" was it of Kenny to insist Clementine be the one to bring the walky-talky to Luke, even if she doesn't want to? We even had Mike there to directly address it, but the general attitude towards that was "lol Clem's badass she can do it." If Clementine doesn't answer, at least Jane steps up. With Kenny, there's no choice. You HAVE to bring it to Luke.
*A bit off topic, but in terms of making her less like a Molly expy, I kind of wish Jane had been Jaime instead. I feel like it would have been a lot more fascinating to see all of this coming from the girl that had been left behind and rose from the ashes, rather than the one who did it. It would have made her seem a lot more badass and mysterious, and while I would have sympathized with her more, the way she treated Sarah would have made sense in a different kind of way, because then it would have been her not understanding why other people can't just "get over it" and move on like she did--in turn, making her a better match to Luke, who couldn't accept why Nick couldn't "move on" past his adversities. And ultimately, it would have made the ending a lot more shocking.
Do you mean that you would have rather seen the little sister rather than Jane? It's never made clear how old she is, but I assume Jaime was around the same age as Becca, Michelle and Sarah.
I wonder if, in an earlier draft (one where Shel & Becca didn't go to Howe's), the sisterly duo WAS Shel & Becca. I can imagine Jaime having a personality similar to Becca - presenting a tough, unpleasant exterior while deeply depressed and out of her depth without her big sister. Having to deal with Sarah could be painful because it feels too similar to what she's feeling, while interacting with Clem is impeded by the emotional impairments they've both suffered.
I do wonder what would've happened if Sarah was to live long enough to prove Jane wrong. Jane never apologized to Arvo for her part in provoking him, so would she be too proud/awkward to apologize to Sarah for doubting her?
That would make more sense. Jane was nothing but a carbon copy of Molly
I'd just like to pop in to say it's a pleasure reading this conversation between you two. Very insightful observations by you both, and a refreshing change from other topics.
And @skoothz, would you be so kind as to provide a link to your fanfiction? o.o I'm curious to read it. Thanks
Though I also have to say, I'm not sure Jaime would've been like Becca, at least not right away anyway. Jane claims that Jaime thought Jane was her best friend, pre-ZA at least. To see someone like Jane in such a good light, Jaime must have been optimistic to the point of being naive, and that naivety probably fractured once the ZA broke out. Possibly post-ZA Jaime realized her boundless optimism wouldn't help her parents or love ones survive, and either this realization or realizing the truth that Jane wasn't as perfect as she'd always thought could have left Jaime depressed and not wanting to go on. If Jaime had survived after Jane had left her on the other hand, I could see her having a more Becca-like personality.
Aw, thanks!
Are we allowed to share fan fiction links on threads? I feel like I read a rule somewhere saying you can't, but I could be wrong. If we can't I can just PM you.
Both have vag's.
Both had a sister that tragically died.
Both have short hair.
DIER DA SAME!
Nah, what would Molly need a community for? She's already had history with communities, it's not really in her character to be in a community, although Jane didn't seem to want to be apart of the community either, all we know is that they found her covered in gore.
Well, this is posted from the forum rules:
and...I think that's up to interpretation. But you could just PM me; that's fine. ^^
I want to your fan fiction too :P
I can see what happens if they brought back Molly
Unused Scene (joke)
Carver: I have a army!
Clementine: We have a Molly!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmBynJ9eMkc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pUhraVG7Ow
Why would Jane being Molly make you want to save Kenny?
No thanks.
No, i would have been harder for me to choose weather to save Kenny or Molly but it was easy to let Jane die. That is what i meant
Then we would have a Pizza, Ice Cream, and Steak choice?
@sialark
Sorry it took so long, I lost track of the thread.
I have a few things I've written, but here's the one I'm currently working on. I just put up chapter four this morning. It's... actually about this thread's subject, believe it or not; Molly in Season 2. Jane still exists, but Molly does take her role to a degree, and they'll serve as foils to each other later on.
Thanks for showing interest! And mods, I apologize if it wasn't appropriate for me to post this, but hey, it is kind of relevant to the thread, isn't it?
They had some similarities, but I feel they were different enough to warrant being their own characters. I actually liked Jane, and Kenny. You can imagine how hard that final scene was with the gun. Serve me right liking both people.
I think Molly would have a better relationship with Kenny, and also everybody would have respected her as an "experienced survivor", so maybe the group fallout and the last situation would have been avoided.
I dunno... Molly really didn't like Kenny very much, if I recall correctly? While I can't imagine her being as abrasive as Jane, I don't see them being buddy-buddy and can definitely see some major disagreements.
The first thing she ever said to Kenny was "back off, asshole."
Yeah, and to the best of my knowledge she doesn't get much friendlier with him. The only people she seems to actually like are Lee and Clementine, and even then her warming up to Lee is kind of determinant.