Who was the most two faced?: Bonnie VS Jane
Bonnie:
- Pretends to be a nice normal survivor starving at the lodge, Walter gives her some supplies out of the kindness of his heart. Then she shows her gratitude by telling Carver where the group is, which leads to Walter and Alvin (Determinant) being murdered by Carver.
- Despite her insisting that she is sorry for her actions and that she will never betray you again she does provided you didn't let her die, which i'm sure most people in their first playthrough didn't.
- If you covered Luke on the ice she will practically blame Clem even though she stupidly decided to edge closer to Luke on ice that wasn't strong enough to support 1 person let alone 2.
- Despite Carver's evil ways she only manages to see that he is a bad person when he kills Reggie and beats Kenny to a pulp.
- She never once says "Sorry" to Kenny, Rebecca or Luke for her role in Walter's and Alvin's demises and for her role in the capture of the group.
Jane:
- She feels bad killing the guy (Someone will have to tell me his name I can't remember) at the start of E5 because she had never killed someone who hadn't harmed her in some way, yet in the previous episode she made death threats to Arvo and steals his medical supplies regardless of whether Clem agrees or not, anyway the point i'm trying to get across is that Arvo was someone who had not harmed her in anyway so she contradicts herself here.
- She then goes on to say she's like some sort of bandit or scavenger and that she feels bad about it.
- Despite clearly feeling guilty about leaving her sister Jaime, she doesn't give a hoot about Sarah on 1 or 2 occasions (Determinant) and tries to get Clem to abandon her even before the walkers have come through to the room.
- Despite her throughout E4 mourning her sister in E5 she resents Kenny for grieving for his entire family and says she is sick of his wounded warrior crap.
- Despite not wanting to kill someone who had never previously harmed her she pretends that AJ is dead in order to get a point across to stage a fight with Kenny who she knew wasn't in the right frame of mind and she must have known one of them would probably have ended up dead. Unless she is a dumb as Bonnie.
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Both are equally as bad and both deserve the worst that the apocalypse can bring them.
I agree.
Also Jane stole medical supplies for Rebecca and AJ when she doesn't even see AJ as anything more than a liability.
AJ ? You mean the ''it'' she calls him ?
Yeah, AJ is cute how could she call him "it", its weird we have to make a decision between 2 characters who couldn't feel more different about AJ.
I only really blame bonnie for the second time, everything else she wasnt part of the group, the entire purpose of ep 5 is to show how dangeorus Kenny and Jane are yet barley anyone gets that, bonnie knew Carver from before. The second time its only because she'd learned from before and had seen the danger Kenny was
Jane only really hid the baby, I dont see how what she did to Arvo has turned into blaming her for everything that happened. Arvo's group robbed people that was all there is to that. With Sarah she tried to save her twice.... I dont see what more could be done, Sarah wasnt her responsibility then either.
I dont really think either of them are that bad
It wasn't leaving that was the problem it was that they were planning on taking everything.
Exactly thats one bad thing vs all the other good things they did, I think it evens out
So taking all your supplies, the truck and leaving you on the floor to bleed to death is ok because she gave you a cool rainbow jacket?
vs
I dont even like Bonnie very much, she was probably my least favourite after episode 5 given her horrible reaction to Lukes death. But still she did more good tha bad when laying it out like that.
Also Kenny and Jane the psychopaths would have killed them I dont know what they were supposed to do when clementine was on the floor, Arvo shot clem not her
That bit about the rainbow jacket made me grin.
Jane. Bonnie is nice.
Bonnie. I hate them both, but Bonnie has made so many dumb decisions that it's unbelievable that she can even be alive at this point.
I disagree .make death threats isnt equal to really kill someone. Like Kenny-Ben situation. he wanted Ben dead but never personally did it. People do death threats all the time, is the apocalipse. so consider Jane drop the gun and didint KILL Arvo, isnt a contradiction.
She was tryng to avoid a risk for Clementine, if she stayed there for too long Walkers could have entered and killed them both. Also, she is the only one who make a comment about sara's death ( determinant. Or she Or rebecca if she dies in the trailer)
she is the only one who volunteer to go save Sarah and Luke
I forgave both a long time ago, Bonnie and Jane, but if i had to choose one, Bonnie was the most two faced
id still say Bonnie could change
Some might argue that his sister could have died had she not had the medicine that Jane takes.
If you actually believed his story that his sister was sick. I didn't and she looked okay enough to me until after the shootout of course!
His sister looked sick to me...I wish they really gave us more info on this so we might have more empathy for Arvo.
I mean Jane didn't know that.
Well maybe not the worst the apocalypse could bring. Bonnie and Jane both had their reasons, however faint they may have been. If I see them again, I'm simply going to let them live, just not with Clem.
As for the origional question, who was more two-faced? I think they were both were to a degree. They both had their reason's.
You could say Bonnie was for pretending to be just someone looking for food for her kid's.. But then I'm sure Carver ordered her to go up to the lodge as a scout. She new better than to refuse. I'm not so sure that's two-faced when made to follow an order. And in my play through, MY Clem never spoke to Bonnie when I was given dialogue option's. always chose silence. We knew Bonnie wasn't really a "bad" person from 400 Day's but Clem never knew her from then, Only that she lied about needing food for her kid's and showed up with Carver who kidnapped them all.
Jane was in how she planned that scene with Kenny and AJ. She had her reason and it wasn't very good but it wasn't only for her gain, it was done for Clem too. Kinda a bad decision for a good reason, but that's another debate.
Give Bonnie a break being addicted to Heroin isn't easy.
It was a decision Clem didn't want her to take but she did anyway.
Bonnie:
Pretends to be a nice normal survivor starving at the lodge, Walter gives her some supplies out of the kindness of his heart. Then she shows her gratitude by telling Carver where the group is, which leads to Walter and Alvin (Determinant) being murdered by Carver.
True, but she is following orders.
Despite her insisting that she is sorry for her actions and that she will never betray you again she does provided you didn't let her die, which i'm sure most people in their first playthrough didn't.
True, if she doesnt drown with Luke, she does betray Clem in trying to take the supplies and leave.. However it wasn't done to be mean, it was done because she feared Kenny and wanted to help save Arvo.
If you covered Luke on the ice she will practically blame Clem even though she stupidly decided to edge closer to Luke on ice that wasn't strong enough to support 1 person let alone 2.
Yes, but doing something dumb isn't being two-faced. She did practically blame Clem for that but then again Kenny blamed Clem for Sarita immediatly after. It's more immediate emotional response.
Despite Carver's evil ways she only manages to see that he is a bad person when he kills Reggie and beats Kenny to a pulp.
She never once says "Sorry" to Kenny, Rebecca or Luke for her role in Walter's and Alvin's demises and for her role in the capture of the group.
She does apologize to Clem though, who is our main character and I find it hard to blame her for not apologizing to the other's when that specific scene was just not included by the writer's. Does it really make her two-faced if she doesn/t apologize to every member of the group after she does help them escape Howe's? Doesnt that action speak louder than an apology?
Jane:
She feels bad killing the guy (Someone will have to tell me his name I can't remember) at the start of E5 because she had never killed someone who hadn't harmed her in some way, yet in the previous episode she made death threats to Arvo and steals his medical supplies regardless of whether Clem agrees or not, anyway the point i'm trying to get across is that Arvo was someone who had not harmed her in anyway so she contradicts herself here.
First, she felt bad for actually killing someone that never harmed her. Very True!! However, making a threat to Arvo was only a threat and was intended to keep her group safe. You said she steals the medical supplies whether Clem agree's or not.. I think this is incorrect.. It is Clem who ultimatly decides whether or not to take them and I don't recall ever that Jane ever simply has the option to take them. Arvo may not have harmed Jane in any way, but other than being a little rough with him and a threat, Jane really didn't harm Arvo, just told him to never come back. Again that's just to scare him in not returning to harm the group. I don't see any contridiction here.
She then goes on to say she's like some sort of bandit or scavenger and that she feels bad about it.
Maybe I have to re-watch this scene because I don't recall Jane ever stealing the med's herself, it was Clem's choice.. Jane could feel guilty for convincing Clem to do it, but that's not being two-faced, it's feeling bad for her action's even if she think's her reason's were valid.
Despite clearly feeling guilty about leaving her sister Jaime, she doesn't give a hoot about Sarah on 1 or 2 occasions (Determinant) and tries to get Clem to abandon her even before the walkers have come through to the room.
What happened to her sister was her sister.. someone she was close to obviously but it taught her a lesson about how some people just give up and if you let them, they will drag you down with them.. Jane was using that example to try to teach Clem that lesson. She saw how Sarah was and knew what would happen. I dont think that's two-faced at all. It was meant to teach Clem, to protect her.
Despite her throughout E4 mourning her sister in E5 she resents Kenny for grieving for his entire family and says she is sick of his wounded warrior crap.
I mostly agree with you here, this part was kinda two-faced. She did explain about her sister and still felt bad about it, but mostly got over it by now. Kenny was still greiving at losing Sarita was still kinda new, but overall this was kinda two-faced.
Despite not wanting to kill someone who had never previously harmed her she pretends that AJ is dead in order to get a point across to stage a fight with Kenny who she knew wasn't in the right frame of mind and she must have known one of them would probably have ended up dead. Unless she is a dumb as Bonnie.
Yes, she planned that to show Clem how unstable Kenny was. But, she was not the one who took the first swing, she did tell Kenny to back off and she did sheath her knife. She didn't do this with the intention of killing him. Kenny was the aggressor and Jane was more trying to defend herself. Yes it was a stupid plan over all, but as someone who never wanted to kill anyone that never harmed her, it was still Kenny that took it that far.
She could have ended the fight by saying AJ was fine, just hidden in a car. But she also said it was an accident, Kenny couldnt accept that and still charged her. I guess you could see this as two-faced in some way, depend's how exactly you define two-faced, I see it as Jane trying to teach Clem another lesson in how some people just lose their way and can become dangerous as Kenny had. It really was about trying to protect herself and Clem. Not wanting to see Kenny drag down Clem.
Overall Rousey4000, I understand the point's your making I just really don't see those example's the same way as you.
Bonnie because I hate her. I have no problem with Jane.
At least I'm honest about my logic.
I think Bonnie was more two faced. Still like her though.
Not really. To me, your post is extremely opinionated. Jane is not two faced, and Bonnie isn't really a "bitch."
The decision Clem didn't want her to take what?? The Med's? or do you mean the decision to pretend AJ was dead?
Yeah, Jane didn't know if Arvo's sister was really sick but it really doesn't matter. They wern't apart of our group and we had people in our group that needed those med's. Again, I didnt believe Arvo, I felt he was lieing just to find compassion so Clem and Jane wouldn't take his med's stash but as I also said, MY Clem took them and I wanted Jane to kill him so he wouldn't return to harm our group.
I feel some of your points are valid.
Yeah the decision to pretend AJ was dead.
Then yeah, Clem never wanted Jane to put her into that decision but she did. No one would want to be placed into that situation but since Jane did all Clem could do was react to it. As I said before, I hated that Jane put her into that position and I didn't want to forgive her, but I told her I would only to keep Jane with Clem simply to help Clem survive, not because I agreed with her.
Yeah the alone ending is suicide.
these points are all stuff ive heard before, some i dissagree with but dont feel like discussing, but the comment about telling clem to leave sarah in order to help clem is kinda bullshit. If she cared about the group she would have grabbed sarah as its not like Jane was doing anything at that moment but telling clem to stop caring about her friend
and again this comes down to opinion because I fully knew Sarah would die or Clem would have to abandon her before we ever met Jane. All Jane told my Clem were thing's I already believed in. Caring for the group can also mean cutting loose the dead weight so as to not risk the lives of other's.
Giving all your reasons for both Jane and Bonnie, Bonnie was allot more two faced than Jane was easily.
Bonnie lied straight to Clementine, Kenny and Walters face where as Jane lied one time to Kenny.. Bonnie put Clementine in danger where as Jane was trying to protect Clementine by trying to get rid of Kenny, as much as I dislike Jane and love Kenny more that is a solid reason..
That sounds like what Carver would say and in a way the group failed Sarah by not showing her how to survive in this world, teaching her to shoot, not shielding her from the world how it is but teaching her how to survive in it.