The example of the woman is an example of lifting strength, not dragging. If she had dragged the car I think that would be a more relevant example, since you pointed out those differences in my own example. As for the potency of the adrenaline rush, I agree that the difference in scenario would vary it greatly. Still, I'm just not entirely convinced that a malnourished 9 year old girl, weighing 100 lbs soaking wet, could pull potentially 200+ pounds of dead weight for such an extended period of time. If there was some way of creating a reliable experiment with the variables being as accurately represented as possible, that would be the only way to truly say one way or another.
As it is, both sides of this are only speculating, so I'll call this one possible, yet improbable.
The adrenaline rush you'd get from being afraid that you and your guardian would die would be much greater than that you'd get for being yel… moreled at though. Also remember that she didn't carry him, she dragged him. She definitely couldn't lift Lee, but dragging him due to an adrenaline rush would certainly be plausible (since the example with the woman lifting the car off her child is up to twenty times her weight and Clementine dragging Lee isn't near that much of a difference).
I definitely agree that it seems highly improbable. Also, she was just turning 9 at the time, so she wasn't even as physically fit as 11 year old Clem was.
I've always been rather strong, even as a kid. But I don't think 11 year old me would be able to drag 200+ pounds of dead weight very far, even if I was having an adrenaline rush.
I definitely agree that it seems highly improbable. Also, she was just turning 9 at the time, so she wasn't even as physically fit as 11 year old Clem was.
I feel like I was one of the few people content with my ending. :< Yeah we could've seen more endings, but mine was perfect for me. And overall, I don't think any ending could ever properly live up to the epicness that is Mass Effect.
No, I haven't played it in two weeks due to work and school and commissions. But that's good they fixed the bug. I might restart the game, since it's been a while since I've played it. I'll forget everything when I turn it on again. XD How did you screw up your romance option? I did a bit of research before I played and was able to successfully keep mine... Cullen.
. I just hate that I can't get a good ending for ME3 unless I play hours and hours of Mulitplayer. -__
When i beat Mass effect 3 for… more the first time, i had played through the game in preperation for Mass efffect 3. Then i saw that ending and lost my mind, it truly never recovered. Red, Blue, Green. What choice should i make! I can't decide...
Oh BTW did you finish Dragon Age? They fixed the bug i was having, at least on PS4. I finished it but must of screwed up on the Romance option so my character was "forever alone."
So if society does not need (and I don't know how you can say this for society as a whole) games ike COD, Battlefield, etc, does that mean t… morehat those games should stop being made? And if it doesn't mean that, why not, if they are holding society back?
That's the thing though, I don't really understand what the issue is. As guys, we don't get offended when we see that a male protagonist is ripped, in perfect shape, ect. So why do some girls get offended by female characters that are made physically appealing in turn?
I'm not meaning to criticize them or anything, I just genuinely don't understand why they care. I suppose I can level with them in some over the top cases, but overall it really does not seem fair to claim that "game after game presents women as nothing but sex objects".
I don't really think it's a big deal
As a guy saying this,
I think this is the biggest thing girls get mad about. IMO we should just be a little bit more understanding.
That's the thing though, I don't really understand what the issue is. As guys, we don't get offended when we see that a male protagonist is … moreripped, in perfect shape, ect. So why do some girls get offended by female characters that are made physically appealing in turn?
I'm not meaning to criticize them or anything, I just genuinely don't understand why they care. I suppose I can level with them in some over the top cases, but overall it really does not seem fair to claim that "game after game presents women as nothing but sex objects".
As guys, we don't get offended when we see that a male protagonist is ripped, in perfect shape, ect.
Not for nothing, but maybe you should think about this more. It's not really a sexual thing, because it's more about setting a standard of masculinity than it is about appealing to people who would find it attractive, but nevertheless it's still kind of problematic in it's own way. I'm sure a lot of men are more negatively affected by images like that then they'd like to admit, or even probably realize.
As for women existing as sex objects... have you ever compared male and female armor in RPGs? Ever noticed how the woman's version might have a bared midriff, or heels? Ever noticed how male characters may get a variety of unique body types (chubby, gangly, stocky, buff, broad-shouldered, etc), whereas the women are generally all the same thin, curvaceous shape? How about the fact there's a completely unnecessary hidden nude model in Beyond: Two Souls?
I mean, come on. Does this look like the kind of thing a professional sniper should be wearing? The game designers literally admitted she was meant to be "erotic." And this is from only a year ago.
That's the thing though, I don't really understand what the issue is. As guys, we don't get offended when we see that a male protagonist is … moreripped, in perfect shape, ect. So why do some girls get offended by female characters that are made physically appealing in turn?
I'm not meaning to criticize them or anything, I just genuinely don't understand why they care. I suppose I can level with them in some over the top cases, but overall it really does not seem fair to claim that "game after game presents women as nothing but sex objects".
This just in: a blogging website is revealed to have gained sentience, and is responsible for the existence of every female protagonist in video games ever created. Science is amazing.
No, it shouldn't matter, but in our society, it kind of does. It's not Telltale's job to provide representation, but there really aren't many games out there with black protagonists. It's a breath of fresh air to see a really successful game series with black protagonists and girl protagonists, because it proves that gamers--like you said--WILL play games regardless of the character's race/gender/etc, which a lot of gaming companies still don't really want to believe. Telltale's kind of setting a bar and pushing boundaries with Lee and Clementine. To have a white guy would erase all of that.
Besides, all their other games have white guy protagonists--I think they can stand to keep this one a little more diverse.
Far as I'm concerned, having a white guy protagonist would be a step backwards after the last two seasons have had us play as a black man an… mored a black girl.
And why would it? As dozens of users before me pointed out, if the story is good, it doesn't, or rather, shouldn't matter, who or what the protagonist is, or how he/she/it is defined.
Tldr (sort of lol): I don't think any of this is as big of an issue as it's made out to be. It's up to developers to make their characters look how they want, because creating a rigid standard would be a hindrance to their creative freedom, as well as the free market. No one is forcing anyone to buy games with sexualized characters, and there are games without them. If you do not care for characters that might be appealing to other people, do not play those games. Also don't expect the things you do not like to be banned, when you could simply ban together with like-minded people and propose developers cater to your specified interests AS WELL, without attempting to force everyone in the world to have your exact same interests. Or, people that share your interests could make their own games that cater closer to those interests.
Not for nothing, but maybe you should think about this more. It's not really a sexual thing, because it's more about setting a standard of masculinity than it is about appealing to people who would find it attractive, but nevertheless it's still kind of problematic in it's own way. I'm sure a lot of men are more negatively affected by images like that then they'd like to admit, or even probably realize.
In games where your character is a warrior or a soldier it really only makes sense that they would be in great physical condition, otherwise they couldn't do the things they do. No guy I know has ever come out and said, "It really isn't fair that this warrior that spends their entire life running, jumping, and otherwise engaging in intense physical activities is more physically fit than I am!" Honestly any guys that do think along those lines should consider a gym membership or go for a daily walk. That mentality does not warrant a change in the construction of video game characters, because it's just dumb. It would make no sense in terms of realism, which many games do strive for, for a character that performs those types of activities on a daily basis to be obese, just so that some rundown schmuck that isn't performing physical fitness activities doesn't feel bad.
Games like Gears of War have characters that are abnormally big, but that's just their art style. I don't think people look at that game and think to themselves, "I wish my bone structure was anatomically impossible, or perhaps just improbable, like that guys!"
I don't think that game developers should be rigidly bound to a standard when creating their characters. There are games where the characters look very real, like Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto, and then there are games like Gears of War and Star Fox where the characters aren't exactly very realistic. Ultimately that doesn't matter, because it's up to the developers to choose what they want to make their characters look like; no one is forcing anyone to play their games. If someone plays Star Fox and thinks, "I can never be as hairy as Fox, my life is ruined," they're probably an over-dramatic moron.
have you ever compared male and female armor in RPGs?
I agree that the female armor in most games is sexualized and entirely nonfunctional in a combat scenario, however, most male armor is entirely nonfunctional in a combat scenario as well. Don't even get me started on the weapons.
how the woman's version might have a bared midriff, or heels?
This is simply a marketing strategy. Most of the men's armor looks "cool," while most of the female armor looks "sexy." This sort of marketing works when your target audience is either expecting or wanting these things. If these things didn't sell then game developers wouldn't create games with them. There are poker cards that have scantily clad or nude women on them as well, and I'm sure there is a vast quantity of other items with similar designs. Men are attracted to female bodies, and they like to see potential idealizations. People do the same with cars, because a car show full of hooptie's would be largely unappealing. I'm sure here that you will try to tell me about objectification, but video game characters aren't real, just like how cars aren't people. It's not, nor should it be, illegal for people to enjoy seeing eccentric standards of beauty.
The armor models in fantasy games are simply pleasant to look at, and I don't really see why that is bad. It's not like this kind of marketing is only directed at men, or is only used in video games. Also, as I said earlier, combat efficiency cannot be used as a serious argument when games are giving you weapons like this:
It's simply fantasy, not reality, and it shouldn't be as big of a deal as people make it.
If you've made it this far, I would like you to tell me the real world consequences of such objectification.
This is sort of random, but it popped into my head so I'll add it; if the statue of David was of an overweight eunuch with a bald spot, it probably wouldn't be quite so renowned.
As guys, we don't get offended when we see that a male protagonist is ripped, in perfect shape, ect.
Not for nothing, but maybe you … moreshould think about this more. It's not really a sexual thing, because it's more about setting a standard of masculinity than it is about appealing to people who would find it attractive, but nevertheless it's still kind of problematic in it's own way. I'm sure a lot of men are more negatively affected by images like that then they'd like to admit, or even probably realize.
As for women existing as sex objects... have you ever compared male and female armor in RPGs? Ever noticed how the woman's version might have a bared midriff, or heels? Ever noticed how male characters may get a variety of unique body types (chubby, gangly, stocky, buff, broad-shouldered, etc), whereas the women are generally all the same thin, curvaceous shape? How about the fact there's a completely unnecessary hidden nude model in… [view original content]
To be honest plenty of those games are adding female characters and you can play as women in multiplayer. Personally I kind of want female enemies to start to become common especially if they have models etc.
No, it does not.
I enjoy Just Cause, for example.
The games aren't perfect, and it is the sexist aspects of each of those games that contribute negatively to society, not the games as a whole.
because it proves that gamers--like you said--WILL play games regardless of the character's race/gender/etc,
But surely season 1 proved that, no cared Lee was black. In fact to be honest I didnt notice when season 1 ep 1 came out until someone said.
To have a white guy would erase all of that.
So we shouldnt use a white man purely because their a white man? We shouldnt use a character based on race and gender? So a character is nothing more than a white man, no difference in personality?
I personally dont care who we play as as long as there an adult or at least old enough to be considered an adult. Clementine is fine but her character and the game itself is weaker as a result due to her age and the tasks she is expected to do.
No, it shouldn't matter, but in our society, it kind of does. It's not Telltale's job to provide representation, but there really aren't man… morey games out there with black protagonists. It's a breath of fresh air to see a really successful game series with black protagonists and girl protagonists, because it proves that gamers--like you said--WILL play games regardless of the character's race/gender/etc, which a lot of gaming companies still don't really want to believe. Telltale's kind of setting a bar and pushing boundaries with Lee and Clementine. To have a white guy would erase all of that.
Besides, all their other games have white guy protagonists--I think they can stand to keep this one a little more diverse.
I had no opposition to the idea of playing as a kid, just issues with how it was carried out. Season 2 had great potential. The dynamics of young people's relationships during a crisis, finding ways around physical limitations, witnessing atrocities through the eyes of a child; they're all interesting concepts to explore, and I wish that they had received more focus than trying to simply establish Clem as hyper-competent.
It'd be more satisfying for me to see Telltale improve on how Clementine's character arc was handled than it would be to see another complete shift in character focus. That said, I applaud when a developer can successfully break the mold as far as standard protagonists go.
This is simply a marketing strategy. Most of the men's armor looks "cool," while most of the female armor looks "sexy." This sort of marketing works when your target audience is either expecting or wanting these things. If these things didn't sell then game developers wouldn't create games with them. There are poker cards that have scantily clad or nude women on them as well, and I'm sure there is a vast quantity of other items with similar designs.
Yeah. This is... kind of the exact problem that I'm talking about...? It's not illegal, no, but it encourages objectification. I mean... it's literally using women's bodies as a marketing strategy. It turns their existence into props that sell products rather than human beings. The way women are sexualized in marketing is well known and HIGHLY criticized as immensely damaging towards how men perceive women and how women perceive themselves. All you have to do is google "sexism in marketing" and you'll get tons of articles explaining how rampant and toxic it is.
Tldr (sort of lol): I don't think any of this is as big of an issue as it's made out to be. It's up to developers to make their characters l… moreook how they want, because creating a rigid standard would be a hindrance to their creative freedom, as well as the free market. No one is forcing anyone to buy games with sexualized characters, and there are games without them. If you do not care for characters that might be appealing to other people, do not play those games. Also don't expect the things you do not like to be banned, when you could simply ban together with like-minded people and propose developers cater to your specified interests AS WELL, without attempting to force everyone in the world to have your exact same interests. Or, people that share your interests could make their own games that cater closer to those interests.
Not for nothing, but maybe you should think about this more. It's not really a sexual thing, because it's more… [view original content]
No, it shouldn't matter, but in our society, it kind of does. It's not Telltale's job to provide representation, but there really aren't man… morey games out there with black protagonists. It's a breath of fresh air to see a really successful game series with black protagonists and girl protagonists, because it proves that gamers--like you said--WILL play games regardless of the character's race/gender/etc, which a lot of gaming companies still don't really want to believe. Telltale's kind of setting a bar and pushing boundaries with Lee and Clementine. To have a white guy would erase all of that.
Besides, all their other games have white guy protagonists--I think they can stand to keep this one a little more diverse.
Do you represent the United Misogynistic Front or the Front of Misogynistic Unity, Belan? You misogynistic oppressor, check your privilege ASAP, I won't be talking to you until you publicly denounce the Patriarchy.
Somehow I think you two missed Skoothz's point entirely.
I don't even get this weird gendered hatred for Tumblr. Wanting to be more creative with writing characters who reflect over 50% of the human population = getting the dislike of a few stubborn dudes on the 'net who are making themselves miserable? Whatever, bros. Have fun being responsible for keeping your games boring.
What I meant was that games in modern era are being forced into writing for a minority instead of writing what can be interesting and good for the story.
Somehow I think you two missed Skoothz's point entirely.
I don't even get this weird gendered hatred for Tumblr. Wanting to be more crea… moretive with writing characters who reflect over 50% of the human population = getting the dislike of a few stubborn dudes on the 'net who are making themselves miserable? Whatever, bros. Have fun being responsible for keeping your games boring.
Carley was a really great and fascinating character, and it's disgusting that all straight guy players want to remember her as is "That hot chick I almost got to bang but then she died." Gross.
Somehow I think you two missed Skoothz's point entirely.
I don't even get this weird gendered hatred for Tumblr. Wanting to be more crea… moretive with writing characters who reflect over 50% of the human population = getting the dislike of a few stubborn dudes on the 'net who are making themselves miserable? Whatever, bros. Have fun being responsible for keeping your games boring.
The same exact thing is done with men in advertising directed at women. Marketing agencies market ideals, because no one will purchase exercise equipment if they see everyone using it weighs 400 pounds. Just like no one looking to purchase a brand new sports car would jump at the opportunity to get one with a rusted body and a dented bumper. Marketing ideals sells products. Maybe people should take a step back and realize this, rather than forcing constraints onto the entirety of the free market. The problem is with people, not with advertising. Maybe reeducation camps are needed.
I once had a theory, and it was in reply to a thread such as this. I would like you to take a look at it and tell me what you think. I'll copy and paste it exactly as I wrote it prior.
"Really though, if you think someone is "hot" why does that automatically have to imply sexual objectification? Hot and beautiful are pretty much interchangeable, and if you find a person's physical appearance attractive why not say so. If physical attraction implies you are viewing another person as being of no more value than a sex toy, would it not be better then to never be physically attracted to anyone?
When someone admits that they find another person physically attractive the implication of course is that they would very much enjoy to engage in consensual sexual intercourse with said person, because this is the very nature of physical attraction. Everyone, male and female, experiences this. This is a fact that cannot be argued with me, because I've seen Norman Reedus's Facebook page. It's natural for people to develop sexual fantasies of a person they perceive as physically attractive, because that person meets the physical appearance criteria of their fantasy. In this way, couldn't this phenomenon be viewed as sexual personification? "She is the personification of my sexual desires." Anyone who would go out of their way to be physically attracted to a person and pursue them obviously wants a person and not an object, otherwise they could eliminate all hassle and just purchase a sex toy."
This is simply a marketing strategy. Most of the men's armor looks "cool," while most of the female armor looks "sexy." This sort of marketi… moreng works when your target audience is either expecting or wanting these things. If these things didn't sell then game developers wouldn't create games with them. There are poker cards that have scantily clad or nude women on them as well, and I'm sure there is a vast quantity of other items with similar designs.
Yeah. This is... kind of the exact problem that I'm talking about...? It's not illegal, no, but it encourages objectification. I mean... it's literally using women's bodies as a marketing strategy. It turns their existence into props that sell products rather than human beings. The way women are sexualized in marketing is well known and HIGHLY criticized as immensely damaging towards how men perceive women and how women perceive themselves. All you have to do is google "sexism in marketing" and you'll get tons of articles explaining how rampant and toxic it is.
Not for nothing, but maybe you should think about this more. It's not really a sexual thing, because it's more about setting a standard of masculinity than it is about appealing to people who would find it attractive, but nevertheless it's still kind of problematic in it's own way. I'm sure a lot of men are more negatively affected by images like that then they'd like to admit, or even probably realize.
Regardless of whether it is sexual or not sexual, it still pushes an ideal image of what a male should look like. You're splitting hairs here. It would be one thing if these female characters were super flirty or only using their looks in a sexual sort of way, but that typically isn't the case as far as I'm aware. We're simply looking at the masculinization of male characters, and the feminization of female characters, in regards to physical appearance. I don't know why you would want to be up in arms about how female characters are presented, but then turn around and downplay the impact of how males are idealized in their own right. It really kind of seems like you're pushing an agenda. I also disagree with you in your stance of there being no intent in sexualizing the male body in the instances where male characters are physically in great shape. I mean... I guess I don't really want to speak to what girls find attractive, but isn't that really all you can do to sexualize a male character? Even if the sexualization is not intentional, it is undeniably still there.
For example, Shane Walsh from TWD:
Obviously this is outside of videogames, but I'm just trying to make a point. I think his character was physically more than just being in good shape. I think he was intentionally supposed to be physically appealing to female viewers. I suppose I could be wrong here, but I really don't think so.
All that being said, in general, men do not care about how they are anatomically represented in video games. Why should they? We understand that it's a selling point, and designers are welcome to make their characters look any particular way that they want to (within reason). From a purely physical sense, there is nothing to be up in arms about. If a designer wants to go the typical route of making their male character to be muscle bound, handsome, ect., then they are welcome to do that. It doesn't necessarily have any sort of negative or harmful connotation. Any sort of negative aspect you give it is done so of your own design. It's the same exact thing in regards to female representation. If a designer decides that they are going to make their female character scalding hot, then there isn't necessarily any sort of negative connotation that needs to go with that. I understand that you're trying to claim that this sort of thing paints women as objects, but there is no real reason to think that way. Even in the case of you currently feeling that way, you need to at least be of the mind that males are treated as objects as well, at least by definition of how you are looking at this issue. I would assume that this line of thought would defeat your entire purpose of having this conversation, though.
As for women existing as sex objects... have you ever compared male and female armor in RPGs? Ever noticed how the woman's version might have a bared midriff, or heels? Ever noticed how male characters may get a variety of unique body types (chubby, gangly, stocky, buff, broad-shouldered, etc), whereas the women are generally all the same thin, curvaceous shape? How about the fact there's a completely unnecessary hidden nude model in Beyond: Two Souls?
I was never denying the fact that female characters are subject to being sexualized.
As guys, we don't get offended when we see that a male protagonist is ripped, in perfect shape, ect.
Not for nothing, but maybe you … moreshould think about this more. It's not really a sexual thing, because it's more about setting a standard of masculinity than it is about appealing to people who would find it attractive, but nevertheless it's still kind of problematic in it's own way. I'm sure a lot of men are more negatively affected by images like that then they'd like to admit, or even probably realize.
As for women existing as sex objects... have you ever compared male and female armor in RPGs? Ever noticed how the woman's version might have a bared midriff, or heels? Ever noticed how male characters may get a variety of unique body types (chubby, gangly, stocky, buff, broad-shouldered, etc), whereas the women are generally all the same thin, curvaceous shape? How about the fact there's a completely unnecessary hidden nude model in… [view original content]
I don't really understand what the issue is. As guys, we don't get offended when we see that a male protagonist is ripped, in perfect shape, ect. So why do some girls get offended by female characters that are made physically appealing in turn?
I feel like this thread has spiraled out of control. in my old age i do not want to be the cause for any more strife, i don't. I just want to live a peaceful life where i can get along with people. I understand, as people we have to respect each others feelings, because if we don't do this how are we ever going to get along. Personal change takes hard work, it takes a wanting to change, to be more than you are today. Don't be a cog, be a solution. I can only change myself to be a more understanding person.
If people get upset, because of how they are portrayed in video games, i feel its our responsibility as a people, of the same tribe to make changes that will put both sexes in a positive light. I can't say for certain because i am not a woman, nor can speak as one however, i know a ex girlfriend of mine had self esteem problems because of the size of her boobs. I don't care about that, but she does, because of how Hollywood/ whatever has made her feel less adequate. She felt like she needed implants, and i told her that was crazy.
People shouldn't have to live that way. Its really sad.
That's the thing though, I don't really understand what the issue is. As guys, we don't get offended when we see that a male protagonist is … moreripped, in perfect shape, ect. So why do some girls get offended by female characters that are made physically appealing in turn?
I'm not meaning to criticize them or anything, I just genuinely don't understand why they care. I suppose I can level with them in some over the top cases, but overall it really does not seem fair to claim that "game after game presents women as nothing but sex objects".
Umm i am a girl, i am bi and i liked her character but i also wanted Lee and her to hook up. Maybe i don't remember as the girl Lee could have sex with completely but it is part of my opinion.
Obviously I don't mean literally every single one. I know that's not true. But given the fact that straight guys are a privileged majority, … moreespecially when it comes to fanservice, and this is one rare gaming instance where the love interest isn't sexualized to appeal to them, thus personally making me feel more included and comfortable when playing this game, I think I'm within my right to exaggerate a little bit, because I'm talking about something that bothers me. And given the fact I'm talking about a privileged majority, here, I don't think my words are going to do any longstanding harm other than make you feel a little bit peeved for a few minutes--but the sexualization of female characters has profound lasting effects. Your feelings in this situation are peanuts in comparison.
If you're trying to say you're not one of those guys, then I'd expect you to have a little more sympathy, here. I would think you'd stop and think, "Yeah, it's… [view original content]
Well i tried flirting with Jose, we got to the part where we danced, then kissed, that was it. I would try to talk to her when i remembered, but i guess i missed a conversation, like with Miranda from MA2.
I feel like I was one of the few people content with my ending. :< Yeah we could've seen more endings, but mine was perfect for me. And o… moreverall, I don't think any ending could ever properly live up to the epicness that is Mass Effect.
No, I haven't played it in two weeks due to work and school and commissions. But that's good they fixed the bug. I might restart the game, since it's been a while since I've played it. I'll forget everything when I turn it on again. XD How did you screw up your romance option? I did a bit of research before I played and was able to successfully keep mine... Cullen.
Also i don't care weather i play as an adult or as a child or a female and male. It's important that the Season itself is good, the story and the decissions.
Well i realize i have a problem with sensitivity sometimes, i am working on trying to keep my foot out of my mouth but sometimes for some r… moreeason it always ends that way., normally its attempt of humor. I never been a malicious person, but sometimes i forget that even a joke can make people feel uncomfortable/upset , and i don't think about it, because i don't get it sometimes. I really have trying to work at it, you would of hated me a year ago.
I understand what you're saying in terms of "ideal" portrayal of both male and female physiques causing people to look poorly upon themselves, but the issue is honestly only as harmful as people let it be. It's not really an issue that can be fixed, nor is it really within our right to force designers to cater their works to people who feel insecure about themselves. Ultimately it's up to us to be attached to reality.
I don't really understand what the issue is. As guys, we don't get offended when we see that a male protagonist is ripped, in perfect shape,… more ect. So why do some girls get offended by female characters that are made physically appealing in turn?
I feel like this thread has spiraled out of control. in my old age i do not want to be the cause for any more strife, i don't. I just want to live a peaceful life where i can get along with people. I understand, as people we have to respect each others feelings, because if we don't do this how are we ever going to get along. Personal change takes hard work, it takes a wanting to change, to be more than you are today. Don't be a cog, be a solution. I can only change myself to be a more understanding person.
If people get upset, because of how they are portrayed in video games, i feel its our responsibility as a people, of the same tribe to make changes that will put both sexes in a posi… [view original content]
but the issue is honestly only as harmful as people let it be.
That is the key bro, we have to remember people are people, they have feelings, they play a game, they see oversexed females all over the place and people feel shitty about themselves. I do agree this isn't something that can be solved easily, and its not only in video games but in our society. Television, supermodels, Musicians, Actors, whatever all portray a certain image to society to show what is acceptable.
I don't know, i don't know how to fix it. I can only change myself, and try to be a more understanding person every day. There is too much pain in this world, it is already bursting at the seams. We need to be understanding in a time of great uncertainly.
I understand what you're saying in terms of "ideal" portrayal of both male and female physiques causing people to look poorly upon themselve… mores, but the issue is honestly only as harmful as people let it be. It's not really an issue that can be fixed, nor is it really within our right to force designers to cater their works to people who feel insecure about themselves. Ultimately it's up to us to be attached to reality.
You're obviously trolling, but I'll offer you another biscuit and hope others can gain something useful from it.
I didn't meant to come over as what you're describing, the only thing i'm saying that kicking that door in is plausible. Even if its a eleven year old girl that was able to train her muscles during the time skip.
I did not measure the acceleration of the door,
Oh my god, did you seriously consider that I was talking about that? "acceleration of the door"? I meant the math behind the durability :l
as I was only showing you the potential force with which she was kicking the door, and the material is a non-factor in that equation.
You're right that it ain't a factor in the equation, but it matters in the end result. The equation is worthless if its just about calculating force and mass. Even with enough force, you wouldn't be able to kick in a door which density is too high, and the material of the frame also plays a role.
You have no quantifiable way of knowing that "anyone could break that door within a matter of seconds." I bet if you threw AJ at that door as hard as you could that he wouldn't be breaking through. As for the frame, the frame held true after the kick, so if anything she broke the deadbolt on the door.
I knew you would hold that against me, use your common sense.
and first you quote me:
"anyone could break that door within a matter of seconds."
then you reply:
I bet if you threw AJ at that door as hard as you could
You do realise I was talking about the "kicking the door" subject, not about throwing new borns against solid objects. Would that really help? you really shouldn've brought this up.
and with "anyone could break that door within a matter of seconds.", you should use your common sense here. You need to be mentally and physically fit to do such a thing.
Most doors are connected to wooden frames by hinges, and locked in place by a deadbolt. She would not need to break the frame around the door in order to get in, in the case that she is kicking the door, like she is. When she is kicking the locked door she is bending the deadbolt and breaking the thin material surrounding it in order to "unlock" the door. I've said this multiple times, she does not kick the door in the correct location, and she isn't kicking it off of its hinges. She is not an NFL linebacker, she isn't taking the door off its hinges. If you need quantifiable evidence that she is not removing the door from its hinges, just watch your own gif, and see the door swinging on them after the deadbolt is "unlocked."
as this is more helpful to readers, I still disagree with you. the hinges are intact, you don't need to prove anything. It's a fact. She broke in by putting enough force to the already damaged door, the frame around the "deadbolt" broke, (since i've seen doors with a wooden frame around the deadbolt, this door could've been the same case. Its often made of metal though.) which resulted in the door opening.
I've already told you that she doesn't do this. She hits too far to the middle of the door, when she needed to hit under the knob to have the best chance of kicking it in.
It doesn't really matter, the door was damaged like I mentioned before. if she hit the door in the middle it would still take damage and the frame around the deadbolt would give eventually.
You're obviously trolling, but I'll offer you another biscuit and hope others can gain something useful from it.
Where are you getting… more the numbers of the door? Are you getting those from a double-layered reinforced steel door in a reinforced frame?
I've made no measurements of the door. Everything I attempted to measure I stated so explicitly in my post. I measured the acceleration of her foot based on numbers that seemed plausible to me. I did not measure the acceleration of the door, as this would have nothing to do with it opening, since it was not accelerating prior to the kick. As for the bit about the type of door, this is irrelevant to the data at hand, as I was only showing you the potential force with which she was kicking the door, and the material is a non-factor in that equation.
The frame wasn't strong to begin with, anyone could break that door within a matter of seconds. It's not the door you have to worry a… [view original content]
This means you should kick as close as you can to the door knob area.
+1 yes exactly. You would have the best chances to kick in the door by doing this.
Your also stating that having a door is pointless on your house because I have never went to someone's house with a metal frame and door.
I stated that having a wooden door with a wooden frame is pointless. That's correct. What I do want to add is that the wood shouldn't be corroded and made of good quality. Also, the connection between the door and frame should be held in place by hinges and several built-in bolts in the door itself. (I decided to withdraw and not add anything furthermore on this subject. I think its pretty obvious that a door needs to be well-protected, or else its worthless against criminals)
I would just like someone to have their 11 yr old girl try to kick their front door down and see how it goes and ends the argument for good.
Many people underestimate young people / kids / childern. Clementine, a 11 year old that skipped a long time that we never got to see - most likely trained her muscles by killing walkers and lifting objects. Have you seen Clementine lift herself up in season 2 episode 1? Also, have you ever heard of kids becoming millionaires? Even at the age of 9, with no help of their parents or adults (for their carreer), its still manageable. While there are adults that "choose"" the easy life and never accomplish such a thing. Furthermore, I want to mention a 11 year old that climbs mountains, she has built enough strength and endurance to do this.
You shouldn't forget that we are all made the same, and nothing is impossible.
Yes actual acceleration is measurable sure but that requires you to know the speed which you need to know the distance and the time. You do … morenot know these for sure because you cannot go into the game and measure it but you could make an educated guess. The real part you have to worry about is where the door knob's bolt is in the frame because the metal is inside the frame and usually is secured by a light metal surrounding that is secured by 2 - 4 screws deep into the frame and wall. This means you should kick as close as you can to the door knob area. Your also stating that having a door is pointless on your house because I have never went to someone's house with a metal frame and door. Also the criminals breaking down your door would be adults or close to being adults that are well fed and have some sort of muscle build. I would just like someone to have their 11 yr old girl try to kick their front door down and see how it goes and ends the argument for good.
Comments
well. they are common. They're video games. They are written by writers. Not by Tumblr.
The example of the woman is an example of lifting strength, not dragging. If she had dragged the car I think that would be a more relevant example, since you pointed out those differences in my own example. As for the potency of the adrenaline rush, I agree that the difference in scenario would vary it greatly. Still, I'm just not entirely convinced that a malnourished 9 year old girl, weighing 100 lbs soaking wet, could pull potentially 200+ pounds of dead weight for such an extended period of time. If there was some way of creating a reliable experiment with the variables being as accurately represented as possible, that would be the only way to truly say one way or another.
As it is, both sides of this are only speculating, so I'll call this one possible, yet improbable.
I definitely agree that it seems highly improbable. Also, she was just turning 9 at the time, so she wasn't even as physically fit as 11 year old Clem was.
Oops, got the two seasons mixed up. Her being only 9 at the time does make it even harder to believe realistically.
I feel like I was one of the few people content with my ending. :< Yeah we could've seen more endings, but mine was perfect for me. And overall, I don't think any ending could ever properly live up to the epicness that is Mass Effect.
No, I haven't played it in two weeks due to work and school and commissions. But that's good they fixed the bug. I might restart the game, since it's been a while since I've played it. I'll forget everything when I turn it on again. XD How did you screw up your romance option? I did a bit of research before I played and was able to successfully keep mine... Cullen.
Everyone calm down for a second, let's come to a mutual agreement
I propose we play as an alcoholic mountain lion with a hair-trigger
No, it does not.
I enjoy Just Cause, for example.
The games aren't perfect, and it is the sexist aspects of each of those games that contribute negatively to society, not the games as a whole.
You think that women protagonists aren't written by writers?
That's the thing though, I don't really understand what the issue is. As guys, we don't get offended when we see that a male protagonist is ripped, in perfect shape, ect. So why do some girls get offended by female characters that are made physically appealing in turn?
I'm not meaning to criticize them or anything, I just genuinely don't understand why they care. I suppose I can level with them in some over the top cases, but overall it really does not seem fair to claim that "game after game presents women as nothing but sex objects".
I blame modern Feminism.:/
Kenny would make a horrible protagonist.
Not for nothing, but maybe you should think about this more. It's not really a sexual thing, because it's more about setting a standard of masculinity than it is about appealing to people who would find it attractive, but nevertheless it's still kind of problematic in it's own way. I'm sure a lot of men are more negatively affected by images like that then they'd like to admit, or even probably realize.
As for women existing as sex objects... have you ever compared male and female armor in RPGs? Ever noticed how the woman's version might have a bared midriff, or heels? Ever noticed how male characters may get a variety of unique body types (chubby, gangly, stocky, buff, broad-shouldered, etc), whereas the women are generally all the same thin, curvaceous shape? How about the fact there's a completely unnecessary hidden nude model in Beyond: Two Souls?
I mean, come on. Does this look like the kind of thing a professional sniper should be wearing? The game designers literally admitted she was meant to be "erotic." And this is from only a year ago.
This just in: a blogging website is revealed to have gained sentience, and is responsible for the existence of every female protagonist in video games ever created. Science is amazing.
No, it shouldn't matter, but in our society, it kind of does. It's not Telltale's job to provide representation, but there really aren't many games out there with black protagonists. It's a breath of fresh air to see a really successful game series with black protagonists and girl protagonists, because it proves that gamers--like you said--WILL play games regardless of the character's race/gender/etc, which a lot of gaming companies still don't really want to believe. Telltale's kind of setting a bar and pushing boundaries with Lee and Clementine. To have a white guy would erase all of that.
Besides, all their other games have white guy protagonists--I think they can stand to keep this one a little more diverse.
Tldr (sort of lol): I don't think any of this is as big of an issue as it's made out to be. It's up to developers to make their characters look how they want, because creating a rigid standard would be a hindrance to their creative freedom, as well as the free market. No one is forcing anyone to buy games with sexualized characters, and there are games without them. If you do not care for characters that might be appealing to other people, do not play those games. Also don't expect the things you do not like to be banned, when you could simply ban together with like-minded people and propose developers cater to your specified interests AS WELL, without attempting to force everyone in the world to have your exact same interests. Or, people that share your interests could make their own games that cater closer to those interests.
In games where your character is a warrior or a soldier it really only makes sense that they would be in great physical condition, otherwise they couldn't do the things they do. No guy I know has ever come out and said, "It really isn't fair that this warrior that spends their entire life running, jumping, and otherwise engaging in intense physical activities is more physically fit than I am!" Honestly any guys that do think along those lines should consider a gym membership or go for a daily walk. That mentality does not warrant a change in the construction of video game characters, because it's just dumb. It would make no sense in terms of realism, which many games do strive for, for a character that performs those types of activities on a daily basis to be obese, just so that some rundown schmuck that isn't performing physical fitness activities doesn't feel bad.
Games like Gears of War have characters that are abnormally big, but that's just their art style. I don't think people look at that game and think to themselves, "I wish my bone structure was anatomically impossible, or perhaps just improbable, like that guys!"
I don't think that game developers should be rigidly bound to a standard when creating their characters. There are games where the characters look very real, like Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto, and then there are games like Gears of War and Star Fox where the characters aren't exactly very realistic. Ultimately that doesn't matter, because it's up to the developers to choose what they want to make their characters look like; no one is forcing anyone to play their games. If someone plays Star Fox and thinks, "I can never be as hairy as Fox, my life is ruined," they're probably an over-dramatic moron.
I agree that the female armor in most games is sexualized and entirely nonfunctional in a combat scenario, however, most male armor is entirely nonfunctional in a combat scenario as well. Don't even get me started on the weapons.
This is simply a marketing strategy. Most of the men's armor looks "cool," while most of the female armor looks "sexy." This sort of marketing works when your target audience is either expecting or wanting these things. If these things didn't sell then game developers wouldn't create games with them. There are poker cards that have scantily clad or nude women on them as well, and I'm sure there is a vast quantity of other items with similar designs. Men are attracted to female bodies, and they like to see potential idealizations. People do the same with cars, because a car show full of hooptie's would be largely unappealing. I'm sure here that you will try to tell me about objectification, but video game characters aren't real, just like how cars aren't people. It's not, nor should it be, illegal for people to enjoy seeing eccentric standards of beauty.
The armor models in fantasy games are simply pleasant to look at, and I don't really see why that is bad. It's not like this kind of marketing is only directed at men, or is only used in video games. Also, as I said earlier, combat efficiency cannot be used as a serious argument when games are giving you weapons like this:
It's simply fantasy, not reality, and it shouldn't be as big of a deal as people make it.
If you've made it this far, I would like you to tell me the real world consequences of such objectification.
This is sort of random, but it popped into my head so I'll add it; if the statue of David was of an overweight eunuch with a bald spot, it probably wouldn't be quite so renowned.
@skoothz
I'm thinking you both missed the point of what Tali said.
To be honest plenty of those games are adding female characters and you can play as women in multiplayer. Personally I kind of want female enemies to start to become common especially if they have models etc.
But surely season 1 proved that, no cared Lee was black. In fact to be honest I didnt notice when season 1 ep 1 came out until someone said.
So we shouldnt use a white man purely because their a white man? We shouldnt use a character based on race and gender? So a character is nothing more than a white man, no difference in personality?
I personally dont care who we play as as long as there an adult or at least old enough to be considered an adult. Clementine is fine but her character and the game itself is weaker as a result due to her age and the tasks she is expected to do.
I had no opposition to the idea of playing as a kid, just issues with how it was carried out. Season 2 had great potential. The dynamics of young people's relationships during a crisis, finding ways around physical limitations, witnessing atrocities through the eyes of a child; they're all interesting concepts to explore, and I wish that they had received more focus than trying to simply establish Clem as hyper-competent.
It'd be more satisfying for me to see Telltale improve on how Clementine's character arc was handled than it would be to see another complete shift in character focus. That said, I applaud when a developer can successfully break the mold as far as standard protagonists go.
Yeah. This is... kind of the exact problem that I'm talking about...? It's not illegal, no, but it encourages objectification. I mean... it's literally using women's bodies as a marketing strategy. It turns their existence into props that sell products rather than human beings. The way women are sexualized in marketing is well known and HIGHLY criticized as immensely damaging towards how men perceive women and how women perceive themselves. All you have to do is google "sexism in marketing" and you'll get tons of articles explaining how rampant and toxic it is.
I'm not really arguing with your point, I only wanted to point out that playing as a white guy won't be necessarily a step backwards, just sayin'.
Do you represent the United Misogynistic Front or the Front of Misogynistic Unity, Belan? You misogynistic oppressor, check your privilege ASAP, I won't be talking to you until you publicly denounce the Patriarchy.
Somehow I think you two missed Skoothz's point entirely.
I don't even get this weird gendered hatred for Tumblr. Wanting to be more creative with writing characters who reflect over 50% of the human population = getting the dislike of a few stubborn dudes on the 'net who are making themselves miserable? Whatever, bros. Have fun being responsible for keeping your games boring.
What I meant was that games in modern era are being forced into writing for a minority instead of writing what can be interesting and good for the story.
wow, my character has tits and vagina. this game is so fresh and new to play!
Clementine kicking that door down was so lame, but then again that was episode 4 which was written by terrible writers.
I agree.
You also missed the point. Have fun viewing the world only through the narrow scope of your ideology.
And Clem moving Lee to the jewerly store , isn´t that unrealistic too?
The same exact thing is done with men in advertising directed at women. Marketing agencies market ideals, because no one will purchase exercise equipment if they see everyone using it weighs 400 pounds. Just like no one looking to purchase a brand new sports car would jump at the opportunity to get one with a rusted body and a dented bumper. Marketing ideals sells products. Maybe people should take a step back and realize this, rather than forcing constraints onto the entirety of the free market. The problem is with people, not with advertising. Maybe reeducation camps are needed.
I once had a theory, and it was in reply to a thread such as this. I would like you to take a look at it and tell me what you think. I'll copy and paste it exactly as I wrote it prior.
"Really though, if you think someone is "hot" why does that automatically have to imply sexual objectification? Hot and beautiful are pretty much interchangeable, and if you find a person's physical appearance attractive why not say so. If physical attraction implies you are viewing another person as being of no more value than a sex toy, would it not be better then to never be physically attracted to anyone?
When someone admits that they find another person physically attractive the implication of course is that they would very much enjoy to engage in consensual sexual intercourse with said person, because this is the very nature of physical attraction. Everyone, male and female, experiences this. This is a fact that cannot be argued with me, because I've seen Norman Reedus's Facebook page. It's natural for people to develop sexual fantasies of a person they perceive as physically attractive, because that person meets the physical appearance criteria of their fantasy. In this way, couldn't this phenomenon be viewed as sexual personification? "She is the personification of my sexual desires." Anyone who would go out of their way to be physically attracted to a person and pursue them obviously wants a person and not an object, otherwise they could eliminate all hassle and just purchase a sex toy."
Regardless of whether it is sexual or not sexual, it still pushes an ideal image of what a male should look like. You're splitting hairs here. It would be one thing if these female characters were super flirty or only using their looks in a sexual sort of way, but that typically isn't the case as far as I'm aware. We're simply looking at the masculinization of male characters, and the feminization of female characters, in regards to physical appearance. I don't know why you would want to be up in arms about how female characters are presented, but then turn around and downplay the impact of how males are idealized in their own right. It really kind of seems like you're pushing an agenda. I also disagree with you in your stance of there being no intent in sexualizing the male body in the instances where male characters are physically in great shape. I mean... I guess I don't really want to speak to what girls find attractive, but isn't that really all you can do to sexualize a male character? Even if the sexualization is not intentional, it is undeniably still there.
For example, Shane Walsh from TWD:
Obviously this is outside of videogames, but I'm just trying to make a point. I think his character was physically more than just being in good shape. I think he was intentionally supposed to be physically appealing to female viewers. I suppose I could be wrong here, but I really don't think so.
All that being said, in general, men do not care about how they are anatomically represented in video games. Why should they? We understand that it's a selling point, and designers are welcome to make their characters look any particular way that they want to (within reason). From a purely physical sense, there is nothing to be up in arms about. If a designer wants to go the typical route of making their male character to be muscle bound, handsome, ect., then they are welcome to do that. It doesn't necessarily have any sort of negative or harmful connotation. Any sort of negative aspect you give it is done so of your own design. It's the same exact thing in regards to female representation. If a designer decides that they are going to make their female character scalding hot, then there isn't necessarily any sort of negative connotation that needs to go with that. I understand that you're trying to claim that this sort of thing paints women as objects, but there is no real reason to think that way. Even in the case of you currently feeling that way, you need to at least be of the mind that males are treated as objects as well, at least by definition of how you are looking at this issue. I would assume that this line of thought would defeat your entire purpose of having this conversation, though.
I was never denying the fact that female characters are subject to being sexualized.
I'm not sure what else it could be... considering guys aren't up in arms about debatably similar representation
I feel like this thread has spiraled out of control. in my old age i do not want to be the cause for any more strife, i don't. I just want to live a peaceful life where i can get along with people. I understand, as people we have to respect each others feelings, because if we don't do this how are we ever going to get along. Personal change takes hard work, it takes a wanting to change, to be more than you are today. Don't be a cog, be a solution. I can only change myself to be a more understanding person.
If people get upset, because of how they are portrayed in video games, i feel its our responsibility as a people, of the same tribe to make changes that will put both sexes in a positive light. I can't say for certain because i am not a woman, nor can speak as one however, i know a ex girlfriend of mine had self esteem problems because of the size of her boobs. I don't care about that, but she does, because of how Hollywood/ whatever has made her feel less adequate. She felt like she needed implants, and i told her that was crazy.
People shouldn't have to live that way. Its really sad.
Umm i am a girl, i am bi and i liked her character but i also wanted Lee and her to hook up. Maybe i don't remember as the girl Lee could have sex with completely but it is part of my opinion.
LOL, i don't know.
Well i tried flirting with Jose, we got to the part where we danced, then kissed, that was it. I would try to talk to her when i remembered, but i guess i missed a conversation, like with Miranda from MA2.
Also i don't care weather i play as an adult or as a child or a female and male. It's important that the Season itself is good, the story and the decissions.
I understand what you're saying in terms of "ideal" portrayal of both male and female physiques causing people to look poorly upon themselves, but the issue is honestly only as harmful as people let it be. It's not really an issue that can be fixed, nor is it really within our right to force designers to cater their works to people who feel insecure about themselves. Ultimately it's up to us to be attached to reality.
That is the key bro, we have to remember people are people, they have feelings, they play a game, they see oversexed females all over the place and people feel shitty about themselves. I do agree this isn't something that can be solved easily, and its not only in video games but in our society. Television, supermodels, Musicians, Actors, whatever all portray a certain image to society to show what is acceptable.
I don't know, i don't know how to fix it. I can only change myself, and try to be a more understanding person every day. There is too much pain in this world, it is already bursting at the seams. We need to be understanding in a time of great uncertainly.
I didn't meant to come over as what you're describing, the only thing i'm saying that kicking that door in is plausible. Even if its a eleven year old girl that was able to train her muscles during the time skip.
Oh my god, did you seriously consider that I was talking about that? "acceleration of the door"? I meant the math behind the durability :l
You're right that it ain't a factor in the equation, but it matters in the end result. The equation is worthless if its just about calculating force and mass. Even with enough force, you wouldn't be able to kick in a door which density is too high, and the material of the frame also plays a role.
I knew you would hold that against me, use your common sense.
and first you quote me:
then you reply:
You do realise I was talking about the "kicking the door" subject, not about throwing new borns against solid objects. Would that really help? you really shouldn've brought this up.
and with "anyone could break that door within a matter of seconds.", you should use your common sense here. You need to be mentally and physically fit to do such a thing.
as this is more helpful to readers, I still disagree with you. the hinges are intact, you don't need to prove anything. It's a fact. She broke in by putting enough force to the already damaged door, the frame around the "deadbolt" broke, (since i've seen doors with a wooden frame around the deadbolt, this door could've been the same case. Its often made of metal though.) which resulted in the door opening.
It doesn't really matter, the door was damaged like I mentioned before. if she hit the door in the middle it would still take damage and the frame around the deadbolt would give eventually.
+1 yes exactly. You would have the best chances to kick in the door by doing this.
I stated that having a wooden door with a wooden frame is pointless. That's correct. What I do want to add is that the wood shouldn't be corroded and made of good quality. Also, the connection between the door and frame should be held in place by hinges and several built-in bolts in the door itself. (I decided to withdraw and not add anything furthermore on this subject. I think its pretty obvious that a door needs to be well-protected, or else its worthless against criminals)
Many people underestimate young people / kids / childern. Clementine, a 11 year old that skipped a long time that we never got to see - most likely trained her muscles by killing walkers and lifting objects. Have you seen Clementine lift herself up in season 2 episode 1? Also, have you ever heard of kids becoming millionaires? Even at the age of 9, with no help of their parents or adults (for their carreer), its still manageable. While there are adults that "choose"" the easy life and never accomplish such a thing. Furthermore, I want to mention a 11 year old that climbs mountains, she has built enough strength and endurance to do this.
You shouldn't forget that we are all made the same, and nothing is impossible.