I've seen some cool fanart where Sarah's cast as the group's medic after Carlos dies, because he taught her a few things. It could have been a really neat route to take, honestly...
Kenny's presence in the Walking Dead feels like I've been eating the same grilled cheese sandwich for the past two years. At first, it was pretty good. Sometimes it had bacon in it. Sometimes it had tomato. And when I ate that last one, I was satisfied. I was happy with the servings of grilled cheese I had consumed. But then they started serving me more grilled cheese, and they put tuna and pickles and Vegemite, and the grilled cheese I was one satisfied with became unappealing and nauseating. The last sandwich I ate might have been delicious back in season one, but by the end of season 2, it was just a relief to finally swallow down the final morsel and be done with it.
Nobody told JT Petty "Hey, the main character saw a baby die." There's a difference between being ambiguous and just forgetting.
On a slightly different note:
What if Sarah's PTSD was tied to her mother's absence? It'd have been interesting if seeing her father die triggered memories of whatever horrible fate her mom suffered.
Not a single mention of Christa. Not even when Bonnie straight up asks Clementine, "Do you know anyone who knows anything about babies?" Bu… moret as usual Clementine gives us virtually nothing about her past unless it's a Feelsy reference to Lee. Like... HOW? They didn't even make her look uncomfortable to imply she was hiding something. It's like it never happened--and Christ, judging by the fact it was done by some guest writers, I'd wager the people writing this didn't even remember Christa's pregnancy.
Ha, I'm also considering a AU of Season 2 that emphasizes Clem's relationship with Sarah. The idea of Sarah delivering Rebecca's baby and growing attached to him/her warms my grinch-like heart.
I love the 'Sarah as medic AU' it's probably one of my favorite ideas for what could have been with her.
...When I finally get around to writing my fic about Clementine and Sarah I might explore that.
Well, I heard the term used in relation to him killing Matthew, actually. I do agree I'm frustrated by Matthew's robbed potential, especially seeing as he was an LGBT character of color, but the term still just puts me off.
Yeah, I'm 100% in support of a Howe's DLC. I'm immensely disappointed by the character change in Tavia (there's a hidden file in 400 Days that's a photograph of her in a suit w/ a flag pin, implying she was a politician--how did she go from that to the mean mook at Carver's?). And clarity on what happened with Carver and Rebecca is kind of necessary, I feel. I think he raped her, but she many people believe it was just an affair, and the fact it's so vague that no one can say for certain is kind of a problem... And yeah, I'm dying to learn more about Nick's mom. I found his entire family really complex and fascinating and honestly would have loved to see her alive and interacting with him and Pete, as well as all three of them surviving longer. Also, who the hell was George? That was... completely thrown away.
I want to see what was appealing about Howe's, but I also want to see deeper into the darker side of it. Not the physical violence, but whatever kind of manipulation and corruption going on that kept them under his thumb for so long and made them so terrified about him hunting them down and bringing them back. Carver was genuinely terrifying in episodes 1-2, but when we actually saw him in action, it was more like we'd been trapped in a playpen by a giant baby. The whole "overzealous" joke was so obnoxious and unnecessary. We're supposed to be frightened of Carver, not see him as a fool.
Yeah, Nick's mother does seem expendable - neither Carver nor Reggie even acknowledge her existence in subsequent episodes, despite the beha… morevior of the cabin group implying that her death was pretty recent. I'd lump that in with Jane's sister. The reason why I'm more forgiving of that is that the narrative doesn't put nearly as much emphasis on using Nick's past to 'justify' his bad acts than it does for Kenny.
You're given the option of not forgiving Nick, of calling him out for being an aggressive jerk. But even if you kill Kenny, Clem's behavior makes it seem like she loved him.
Anyways, this ties back to why I'd prefer a prequel DLC to focus on Tavia's perspective: we'd get to see Carver's community in a less negative light, we'd have more insight into Carver's relationship with Rebecca, we'd understand why Tavia is so unpleasant to the prisoners, and we might even get to see Nick's mom. The mystery behind Carver was one of the … [view original content]
I'm sure seeing your father get ripped apart will be triggering regardless, but yeah, that'd be a really interesting and valid way to interpret her shut-down if we'd actually gotten the chance to learn anything about her mother, assuming she had one. When I heard about Sarah having PTSD it was my initial assumption that it was related to the fact she was with just her dad, but like I said... they don't even give us any indication about this.
Yet another reason for a Howe's DLC. We can learn more about Carlos and Sarah.
Nobody told JT Petty "Hey, the main character saw a baby die." There's a difference between being ambiguous and just forgetting.
On a sl… moreightly different note:
What if Sarah's PTSD was tied to her mother's absence? It'd have been interesting if seeing her father die triggered memories of whatever horrible fate her mom suffered.
Tavia was a politician?! Jeez, that'd have been a great idea to explore!
What if she was the de-facto leader of the community, running things behind the scenes while leading Carver to believe he was in charge? Hell, Vince's cameo proves that Tavia wasn't as much of a hardliner as she presents herself to the prisoners. I can imagine the episode being different if she, like Bonnie, was growing uncomfortable with Carver and decided to overthrow him instead.
Besides, we've technically already played as Tavia before - she was the character who met all the 400 Days character, and aside from Bonnie she's the only one who's definitely ended up in Howe's.
I'd even like to see another DLC of her set after Season 2, but the opening of Amid The Ruins makes that problematic. Apparently you can see zombies sneaking up behind Tavia and the other guards on the roof, which makes her fate seem bleak. She'd need Kenny's plot armor.
Well, I heard the term used in relation to him killing Matthew, actually. I do agree I'm frustrated by Matthew's robbed potential, especiall… morey seeing as he was an LGBT character of color, but the term still just puts me off.
Yeah, I'm 100% in support of a Howe's DLC. I'm immensely disappointed by the character change in Tavia (there's a hidden file in 400 Days that's a photograph of her in a suit w/ a flag pin, implying she was a politician--how did she go from that to the mean mook at Carver's?). And clarity on what happened with Carver and Rebecca is kind of necessary, I feel. I think he raped her, but she many people believe it was just an affair, and the fact it's so vague that no one can say for certain is kind of a problem... And yeah, I'm dying to learn more about Nick's mom. I found his entire family really complex and fascinating and honestly would have loved to see her alive and interacting with him and Pete, as well as all three … [view original content]
Once I'm finished with my Arvo one I'm definitely going to explore the possibilities of Clem and Sarah's relationship, which in my opinion really should have been a much bigger part of S2. Bigger than Clementine and Kenny's relationship anyway.
Sarah deserved better than what she got, and the endings for Clementine really didn't make me feel like we got to determine her personality at all, just where she physically ended up. They'll be a lot harder to get right than Arvo because they've had more characterization than he has but I'm looking forward to writing them. As of now I've only got a few basic ideas floating around though, so I don't have much as of yet.
The image of Sarah taking care of Rebecca's baby warms my heart as well, actually.
Ha, I'm also considering a AU of Season 2 that emphasizes Clem's relationship with Sarah. The idea of Sarah delivering Rebecca's baby and growing attached to him/her warms my grinch-like heart.
Tavia being the "woman behind the curtain" to Carver's Oz would be interesting... and make Carver's goonish, childlike behavior a lot easier to swallow.
After episode 2, when Howe's & the 400 Days group was still just a rumor, I was deadset on the idea that Tavia was running some kind of anti-Carver resistance group that helped people sneak out after he took over.
Amid The Ruins made... a lot of things problematic.
Tavia was a politician?! Jeez, that'd have been a great idea to explore!
What if she was the de-facto leader of the community, running t… morehings behind the scenes while leading Carver to believe he was in charge? Hell, Vince's cameo proves that Tavia wasn't as much of a hardliner as she presents herself to the prisoners. I can imagine the episode being different if she, like Bonnie, was growing uncomfortable with Carver and decided to overthrow him instead.
Besides, we've technically already played as Tavia before - she was the character who met all the 400 Days character, and aside from Bonnie she's the only one who's definitely ended up in Howe's.
I'd even like to see another DLC of her set after Season 2, but the opening of Amid The Ruins makes that problematic. Apparently you can see zombies sneaking up behind Tavia and the other guards on the roof, which makes her fate seem bleak. She'd need Kenny's plot armor.
TBH, I think a lot of this neglect is due to rushed schedules, the demands of a shorter running time, and having too many characters and things to keep track of. It's easy for fans, months later, to rip apart every detail of the final product, but I can understand how writers can miss out a lot of things that could have made their works more effective.
There's a mystery behind Carlos. In episode 1, if you ask Sarah if Carlos has let people die before, she'll say "No...not on purpose...I don't know!" In the following episode, Luke warns Carlos not to "do anything crazy or...not nice." Perhaps this meant that he let George bleed out after Alvin shot him - if Carlos had killed another member of Howe's, I think Carver would have mentioned it.
There's also the subtext of Carver and Carlos disagreeing about fighting over how to treat Sarah. Carver refers to him as a "smug son of a bitch", deliberately tortures Carlos as a means of traumatizing Sarah, chooses to alienate Sarah from her dad by making him slap her, and finally decides to talk 'nicely' to her immediately after murdering Reggie. After that, however, we don't see any fallout of Carver's 'chat' to Sarah - the subplot is dropped.
In a Season 2 where Carver isn't murderized halfway through, I would've liked to have had this conflict explored further.
I'm sure seeing your father get ripped apart will be triggering regardless, but yeah, that'd be a really interesting and valid way to interp… moreret her shut-down if we'd actually gotten the chance to learn anything about her mother, assuming she had one. When I heard about Sarah having PTSD it was my initial assumption that it was related to the fact she was with just her dad, but like I said... they don't even give us any indication about this.
Yet another reason for a Howe's DLC. We can learn more about Carlos and Sarah.
Either A 400 Days Like DLC that introduces us to our group in Season 3, what happens to Christa after she is separated from Clem, A Continuation of the 400 Days Characters, or all combined..............
Damn - I suppose that would've originally been on the board along with the other 400 Days survivors. Guess they didn't want to confuse players.
Seems ironic that Tavia ends up playing a subordinate role to a guy who, in most likelihood, wasn't exactly a powerful figure prior to the collapse. Deleted lines indicate that Carver was an engineer.
Also, what's to have stopped Arvo from being part of the survivors from Howe's? Would've been much less random, and then there'd be a compelling reason for Howe's survivors to take revenge on Clem for ruining them. The only reason I see for having Russians is the language barrier.
Yep! Here's the image.
Tavia being the "woman behind the curtain" to Carver's Oz would be interesting... and make Carver's goonish, c… morehildlike behavior a lot easier to swallow.
After episode 2, when Howe's & the 400 Days group was still just a rumor, I was deadset on the idea that Tavia was running some kind of anti-Carver resistance group that helped people sneak out after he took over.
Amid The Ruins made... a lot of things problematic.
There was probably an issue with Michael Madsen, honestly. I don't know if it was pay, or scheduling, or what, but something tells me they intended to have Carver much longer than he actually ended up being in the game.
And yeah, definitely way too cooks in the kitchen in terms of characters. The whole "rapidly killing off characters with unfinished arcs and then cycling them with new characters that also get dropped" struck me as incredibly... amateur, to be truthful. It's one thing to have a sudden, unexpected death once and make that the meaning behind their arc (that people die before you get to know them, blah blah blah), but to do it over and over again is just bad writing and from a writer's perspective, just kind of sad. Wished they'd loved all their characters they way they loved Kenny. He's one of the few that actually got treated like a human rather than a plot device.
TBH, I think a lot of this neglect is due to rushed schedules, the demands of a shorter running time, and having too many characters and thi… morengs to keep track of. It's easy for fans, months later, to rip apart every detail of the final product, but I can understand how writers can miss out a lot of things that could have made their works more effective.
There's a mystery behind Carlos. In episode 1, if you ask Sarah if Carlos has let people die before, she'll say "No...not on purpose...I don't know!" In the following episode, Luke warns Carlos not to "do anything crazy or...not nice." Perhaps this meant that he let George bleed out after Alvin shot him - if Carlos had killed another member of Howe's, I think Carver would have mentioned it.
There's also the subtext of Carver and Carlos disagreeing about fighting over how to treat Sarah. Carver refers to him as a "smug son of a bitch", deliberately tortures Carlos as a means of trauma… [view original content]
By the time the Russians were introduced, they might as well have had Clementine jump over a shark on water skis. It was bizarre and inexplicable and clearly only done for the sake of conflict to further the plot and nothing else... but it could have been done in so many ways that made more sense?
The Howe's survivors cornering them instead would have made so much more sense, and actually utilized the characters from 400 Days besides really disappointing cameos. I'm sure something could have been done where there's still a communication barrier even if they all speak English.
Damn - I suppose that would've originally been on the board along with the other 400 Days survivors. Guess they didn't want to confuse play… moreers.
Seems ironic that Tavia ends up playing a subordinate role to a guy who, in most likelihood, wasn't exactly a powerful figure prior to the collapse. Deleted lines indicate that Carver was an engineer.
Also, what's to have stopped Arvo from being part of the survivors from Howe's? Would've been much less random, and then there'd be a compelling reason for Howe's survivors to take revenge on Clem for ruining them. The only reason I see for having Russians is the language barrier.
In a strange way, I kinda liked how random and unsatisfying Nick's death was. Not everyone lives to get the 'redemption' they deserve. It WAS believable that he would die in a stupid, aggravating accident rather than heroically as a lot of people wanted him to, and in a way that does make him tragic. If only there was a better effort to mourn over him and acknowledge his absurd fate...
If the writers really were committed to being harshly realistic, then none of the other supporting characters would have been safe. Especially Kenny. Abruptly killing him off in a manner similar to Sarah or Nick would have been applauded by me, because it'd actually be a bold move and faithful to the "darkness" the writers claimed they were going for. His send-offs rang hollow to me because they were cheesily happy and quite at odds with how unflatteringly other characters were portrayed.
I know there's always the risk of going too far and making the darkness outright repulsive, but far as I'm concerned we already dealt with Clem's relationship with a daddy figure in the last season. This season could've had her relate more to sibling figures like Luke or Sarah.
There was probably an issue with Michael Madsen, honestly. I don't know if it was pay, or scheduling, or what, but something tells me they i… morentended to have Carver much longer than he actually ended up being in the game.
And yeah, definitely way too cooks in the kitchen in terms of characters. The whole "rapidly killing off characters with unfinished arcs and then cycling them with new characters that also get dropped" struck me as incredibly... amateur, to be truthful. It's one thing to have a sudden, unexpected death once and make that the meaning behind their arc (that people die before you get to know them, blah blah blah), but to do it over and over again is just bad writing and from a writer's perspective, just kind of sad. Wished they'd loved all their characters they way they loved Kenny. He's one of the few that actually got treated like a human rather than a plot device.
Here's the thing:
In a strange way, I kinda liked how random and unsatisfying Nick's death was. Not everyone lives to get the 'redemptio… moren' they deserve. It WAS believable that he would die in a stupid, aggravating accident rather than heroically as a lot of people wanted him to, and in a way that does make him tragic. If only there was a better effort to mourn over him and acknowledge his absurd fate...
If the writers really were committed to being harshly realistic, then none of the other supporting characters would have been safe. Especially Kenny. Abruptly killing him off in a manner similar to Sarah or Nick would have been applauded by me, because it'd actually be a bold move and faithful to the "darkness" the writers claimed they were going for. His send-offs rang hollow to me because they were cheesily happy and quite at odds with how unflatteringly other characters were portrayed.
I know there's always the risk of going … [view original content]
I kinda liked how random and unsatisfying Nick's death was
Even though I hate Nick's death, I kinda like it that sort of death too. Just a character abruptly dies, it would have been better on screen, but its whatever.
Here's the thing:
In a strange way, I kinda liked how random and unsatisfying Nick's death was. Not everyone lives to get the 'redemptio… moren' they deserve. It WAS believable that he would die in a stupid, aggravating accident rather than heroically as a lot of people wanted him to, and in a way that does make him tragic. If only there was a better effort to mourn over him and acknowledge his absurd fate...
If the writers really were committed to being harshly realistic, then none of the other supporting characters would have been safe. Especially Kenny. Abruptly killing him off in a manner similar to Sarah or Nick would have been applauded by me, because it'd actually be a bold move and faithful to the "darkness" the writers claimed they were going for. His send-offs rang hollow to me because they were cheesily happy and quite at odds with how unflatteringly other characters were portrayed.
I know there's always the risk of going … [view original content]
Personally, I was interested in exploring how Sarah would've responded to her trauma had she lived further past her father's death. Drawing parallels between her and Nick - a sensitive boy who hardened because he was expected to - and emphasizing the hints of a suicidal nature (her approaching the edge of Howe's roof in episode 3). Carver would have also been a more prominent character, having attributes of Kenny 2.0 grafted onto him.
I'm considering a scenario where Carver was able to take possession of his child, and due to a lack of other available survivors (he'd be one of the few who survives Howe's downfall) he forces Sarah to be its foster mother and Clem to be his own surrogate daughter. I'm morbidly interested in seeing if Sarah, driven hard enough, would be forced to question her morality ("Even when I'm really mad I still don't wanna hurt anyone") if it meant breaking herself, the baby and Clem free of Carver.
Once I'm finished with my Arvo one I'm definitely going to explore the possibilities of Clem and Sarah's relationship, which in my opinion r… moreeally should have been a much bigger part of S2. Bigger than Clementine and Kenny's relationship anyway.
Sarah deserved better than what she got, and the endings for Clementine really didn't make me feel like we got to determine her personality at all, just where she physically ended up. They'll be a lot harder to get right than Arvo because they've had more characterization than he has but I'm looking forward to writing them. As of now I've only got a few basic ideas floating around though, so I don't have much as of yet.
The image of Sarah taking care of Rebecca's baby warms my heart as well, actually.
I don't think the writers actually intended it, but it seems like Arvo existed as a way for their beloved character to beat up a crippled foreigner and get away with it. Lazily relying on American prejudice against Russians/"Commies" - maybe they thought that they couldn't possibly be racist because they weren't using Latinos?
Having a conflict between Howe's loyalists and the escapees would also have made the civil war setting more apt - the escaped slaves vs the slavers. It's not like that damn statue was any less subtle.
By the time the Russians were introduced, they might as well have had Clementine jump over a shark on water skis. It was bizarre and inexpli… morecable and clearly only done for the sake of conflict to further the plot and nothing else... but it could have been done in so many ways that made more sense?
The Howe's survivors cornering them instead would have made so much more sense, and actually utilized the characters from 400 Days besides really disappointing cameos. I'm sure something could have been done where there's still a communication barrier even if they all speak English.
I agree with Bokor, I'd love to see your fics, too.
I'm writing my own right now where Sarah survives the events of episode 4 (my second time trying, actually--hopefully I'll have more interest in continuing it to the end this time around). One cool thing that came out of these dissatisfying fates is a lot of people were motivated to get creative and explore those characters themselves.
Once I'm finished with my Arvo one I'm definitely going to explore the possibilities of Clem and Sarah's relationship, which in my opinion r… moreeally should have been a much bigger part of S2. Bigger than Clementine and Kenny's relationship anyway.
Sarah deserved better than what she got, and the endings for Clementine really didn't make me feel like we got to determine her personality at all, just where she physically ended up. They'll be a lot harder to get right than Arvo because they've had more characterization than he has but I'm looking forward to writing them. As of now I've only got a few basic ideas floating around though, so I don't have much as of yet.
The image of Sarah taking care of Rebecca's baby warms my heart as well, actually.
Here's the thing:
In a strange way, I kinda liked how random and unsatisfying Nick's death was. Not everyone lives to get the 'redemptio… moren' they deserve. It WAS believable that he would die in a stupid, aggravating accident rather than heroically as a lot of people wanted him to, and in a way that does make him tragic. If only there was a better effort to mourn over him and acknowledge his absurd fate...
If the writers really were committed to being harshly realistic, then none of the other supporting characters would have been safe. Especially Kenny. Abruptly killing him off in a manner similar to Sarah or Nick would have been applauded by me, because it'd actually be a bold move and faithful to the "darkness" the writers claimed they were going for. His send-offs rang hollow to me because they were cheesily happy and quite at odds with how unflatteringly other characters were portrayed.
I know there's always the risk of going … [view original content]
Oh, it was still a stupid death and in retrospect I find it a rather bad waste of writing potential. I guess I'd already braced for it ever since he was made determinant in the second episode.
People liked Alvin's determinant death because they knew less about him AND it was a little more traditionally heroic. The nerdy, fat, "pussy-whipped" husband redeems himself by exchanging a tearful parting with Clem, taking Carver's weapon and engaging in a short-lived gunfight. Nick's, by contrast, is far lonelier and pathetic. I both like the idea while hating that it happened to a character like him.
I agree with Bokor, I'd love to see your fics, too.
I'm writing my own right now where Sarah survives the events of episode 4 (my second … moretime trying, actually--hopefully I'll have more interest in continuing it to the end this time around). One cool thing that came out of these dissatisfying fates is a lot of people were motivated to get creative and explore those characters themselves.
Yeah, idk... I feel like Luke's death was a better executed portrayal of a really sudden, "pathetic" kind of death--because he'd been a bigger character, and we knew more about him, and it came out of nowhere and we saw it all happen and it was just so damn sad to watch because you really couldn't do anything. Luke's death, like, honestly made me like him more, that's how bad I felt for him.
But Nick's death is sad in a way where it just makes me feel really miserable and pessimistic, both in context and from the perspective of a writer.
Oh, it was still a stupid death and in retrospect I find it a rather bad waste of writing potential. I guess I'd already braced for it ever… more since he was made determinant in the second episode.
People liked Alvin's determinant death because they knew less about him AND it was a little more traditionally heroic. The nerdy, fat, "pussy-whipped" husband redeems himself by exchanging a tearful parting with Clem, taking Carver's weapon and engaging in a short-lived gunfight. Nick's, by contrast, is far lonelier and pathetic. I both like the idea while hating that it happened to a character like him.
I can't get upset about Luke's death, because it WAS a much better send-off than any of the characters who died in Amid The Ruins. That's a 'shocking' death that I was able to swallow just fine, and I actually did like his character even though the conflict between him and Kenny was not particularly compelling.
It seems like both Nick & Luke gave out details about their backstory in the episodes they were slated to die - the writer knew that to give their deaths more weight, players should know details about the character that weren't necessarily relevant to the plot. Luke being an art-history major or Nick pursuing a failed business venture doesn't have any bearing on the story, but it DOES give a glimpse into the life they had prior to the zombies. In Episode 5, we even learn more about Kenny's life and his father (hinted to be an abusive one).
Unfortunately the same courtesy wasn't provided for Sarah, Rebecca or Sarita - the latter of which breaks the 4th wall to wail "I'm dead, I'm dead!"
Yeah, idk... I feel like Luke's death was a better executed portrayal of a really sudden, "pathetic" kind of death--because he'd been a bigg… moreer character, and we knew more about him, and it came out of nowhere and we saw it all happen and it was just so damn sad to watch because you really couldn't do anything. Luke's death, like, honestly made me like him more, that's how bad I felt for him.
But Nick's death is sad in a way where it just makes me feel really miserable and pessimistic, both in context and from the perspective of a writer.
In response to the Tavia photograph--I like how they've added little details to this photo. Namely, the folded creases, indicating the photo's been folded into quarters and probably stowed somewhere. But it's not crisp and new as if it was folded once and then put into storage; clearly it's worn as if the photo was opened up and then folded closed again many times, or perhaps the photo was carried around in someone's pocket. And this could be stretching it a bit, but it doesn't look like a normal glossy photo that would get worn; it looks more like the paper from a newspaper clipping.
It could be that Tavia was honored for some achievement that made its way into a periodical. So I imagine Tavia may have carried the photo/clipping around with her, and opened it up and looked at it from time to time, perhaps to remind herself of who she used to be, or to remind herself what she still wants to do, even if the ZA is forcing her to become other things like working under Carver. I also like the idea that Tavia was the "woman behind the curtain," but I still think Carver's manipulative behavior proves he's certainly capable of some politics himself, even if all of his actions don't seem to support this.
Then it's interesting how at the end of 400 Days, the other characters decide to just burn their photos. This is probably done to symbolize how these characters wanted to move forward from their pasts, and also move forward from the past sins they've committed in the ZA or before. As @Bokor's mentioned, perhaps it was also to symbolize hope (with the whole fire = hope metaphor) for the future, when moving onto what they could hope was a fresh start at Howe's. I wonder if originally Tavia had the option to burn her photo too, but decided not to. I like to imagine that she still hangs on to that photo, and she still wants to be the leader depicted in that photo as well.
Yep! Here's the image.
Tavia being the "woman behind the curtain" to Carver's Oz would be interesting... and make Carver's goonish, c… morehildlike behavior a lot easier to swallow.
After episode 2, when Howe's & the 400 Days group was still just a rumor, I was deadset on the idea that Tavia was running some kind of anti-Carver resistance group that helped people sneak out after he took over.
Amid The Ruins made... a lot of things problematic.
Kenny's presence in the Walking Dead feels like I've been eating the same grilled cheese sandwich for the past two years. At first, it was p… moreretty good. Sometimes it had bacon in it. Sometimes it had tomato. And when I ate that last one, I was satisfied. I was happy with the servings of grilled cheese I had consumed. But then they started serving me more grilled cheese, and they put tuna and pickles and Vegemite, and the grilled cheese I was one satisfied with became unappealing and nauseating. The last sandwich I ate might have been delicious back in season one, but by the end of season 2, it was just a relief to finally swallow down the final morsel and be done with it.
Why do people want more grilled cheese.
Kenny's presence in the Walking Dead feels like I've been eating the same grilled cheese sandwich for the past two years. At first, it was p… moreretty good. Sometimes it had bacon in it. Sometimes it had tomato. And when I ate that last one, I was satisfied. I was happy with the servings of grilled cheese I had consumed. But then they started serving me more grilled cheese, and they put tuna and pickles and Vegemite, and the grilled cheese I was one satisfied with became unappealing and nauseating. The last sandwich I ate might have been delicious back in season one, but by the end of season 2, it was just a relief to finally swallow down the final morsel and be done with it.
Why do people want more grilled cheese.
That fic isn't ready yet, actually. I'm hoping I can put out the first chapter sometime during winter break, but I'm going through a lot of rewrites right now so we'll see.
I really like the idea you have, especially if Carver is going to be prominent in it. Seeing him cause trouble out in the open without having a home base to trap people in (Unless once the herd moves on like it did in the Jane ending you'll have him return with the remaining survivors) like he did in the second episode would be fun to write about.
I've often thought about that line from Sarah as well. I've got a lot of questions I have to come up with answers to regarding Sarah and, "at what point will she begin to reconsider not wanting to hurt others?" Is a big one. We already see her ask how to use a gun, which at the time I thought would be some sort of foreshadowing that she and Clem may end up in a dangerous situation where they'd have to work together, but this never happened.
Fanfiction helps ease the pain of all the unresolved and underdeveloped characters and plot lines this season.
What's your fanfic called? I'd love to read it!
Personally, I was interested in exploring how Sarah would've responded to her trauma had… more she lived further past her father's death. Drawing parallels between her and Nick - a sensitive boy who hardened because he was expected to - and emphasizing the hints of a suicidal nature (her approaching the edge of Howe's roof in episode 3). Carver would have also been a more prominent character, having attributes of Kenny 2.0 grafted onto him.
I'm considering a scenario where Carver was able to take possession of his child, and due to a lack of other available survivors (he'd be one of the few who survives Howe's downfall) he forces Sarah to be its foster mother and Clem to be his own surrogate daughter. I'm morbidly interested in seeing if Sarah, driven hard enough, would be forced to question her morality ("Even when I'm really mad I still don't wanna hurt anyone") if it meant breaking herself, the baby and Clem free of Carver.
I wasn't interested in making fanfiction for this series until Season 2. The discussions on this forum, particularly the ideas Jaded X Gamer brought, have been quite encouraging in re-visualizing Clementine's story.
As it is, Carver fails to elicit the sense that he ever was a good man to begin with - from his first appearance he reeks of sociopath, something that Kenny isn't. I'm not interested in downplaying or excusing his evil actions, but I do prefer the idea of him making attempts to earn Clem's trust through humanity (showing concern for his followers) rather than being 100% Social Darwinist. Telltale took pains to try and convince people that Kenny was redeemable by having him be self-aware and show genuine concern for the children's welfare.
Can you imagine Carver holding a baby with joy? Can you see him risking his life to save someone? Can you imagine him being driven to tears by the thought that he's failed his followers? A villain who isn't actually a Terminator in disguise would be a more believable one
And I see Sarah as a great foil to him. Hyper-sensitive, quiet, friendly to a fault. She might not be the Untermensch Carver wants children to grow into, but she doesn't have to be. Any wannabe dictator/abusive patriarch would see the value in using docile women for domestic purposes, particularly child-care.
That fic isn't ready yet, actually. I'm hoping I can put out the first chapter sometime during winter break, but I'm going through a lot of … morerewrites right now so we'll see.
I really like the idea you have, especially if Carver is going to be prominent in it. Seeing him cause trouble out in the open without having a home base to trap people in (Unless once the herd moves on like it did in the Jane ending you'll have him return with the remaining survivors) like he did in the second episode would be fun to write about.
I've often thought about that line from Sarah as well. I've got a lot of questions I have to come up with answers to regarding Sarah and, "at what point will she begin to reconsider not wanting to hurt others?" Is a big one. We already see her ask how to use a gun, which at the time I thought would be some sort of foreshadowing that she and Clem may end up in a dangerous situation where they'd have to work together, but th… [view original content]
Aftermath DLC episode maybe, if clem isnt gonna be in s3 there could be an aftermath ep thats basically 4 diff episodes based off the ending you got. Id like that a lot.
Kenny's presence in the Walking Dead feels like I've been eating the same grilled cheese sandwich for the past two years. At first, it was p… moreretty good. Sometimes it had bacon in it. Sometimes it had tomato. And when I ate that last one, I was satisfied. I was happy with the servings of grilled cheese I had consumed. But then they started serving me more grilled cheese, and they put tuna and pickles and Vegemite, and the grilled cheese I was one satisfied with became unappealing and nauseating. The last sandwich I ate might have been delicious back in season one, but by the end of season 2, it was just a relief to finally swallow down the final morsel and be done with it.
Why do people want more grilled cheese.
I wasn't interested in writing fanfic for the series until this season either. "Screw canon, I'll write my own," is a really common saying nowadays it seems. I used to shy away from fanfiction out of the fear of not being good enough (I still fear this.) but I feel like the things I want to write need to be written, because the characters I care enough to write about have been seriously neglected by canon (And a big reason I care about them is because of that, so I think it's like some weird paradox) and I just can't resist the urge to write.
A more developed Carver would be great. The only times we are given anything on his humanity is when we are told about it. We are just supposed to assume he's actually got good qualities, or did at one point. But half-assed parallels of him to Kenny, and Bonnie making a comment about how stressed out he is just doesn't do it for me. I think it would have helped if we got to witness him actually interacting with the members of the community that aren't in the prison, if he was really that much of a sociopathic tyrant towards everyone else surely somebody would have been able to stage a successful mutiny against him(?)
Maybe Carver could gradually come to decide that Sarah would be better suited to being the care-taker of his child instead of attempting to mold her into a bloodthirsty killer or whatever it was he was trying to accomplish by having Carlos hit her.
I wasn't interested in making fanfiction for this series until Season 2. The discussions on this forum, particularly the ideas Jaded X Game… morer brought, have been quite encouraging in re-visualizing Clementine's story.
As it is, Carver fails to elicit the sense that he ever was a good man to begin with - from his first appearance he reeks of sociopath, something that Kenny isn't. I'm not interested in downplaying or excusing his evil actions, but I do prefer the idea of him making attempts to earn Clem's trust through humanity (showing concern for his followers) rather than being 100% Social Darwinist. Telltale took pains to try and convince people that Kenny was redeemable by having him be self-aware and show genuine concern for the children's welfare.
Can you imagine Carver holding a baby with joy? Can you see him risking his life to save someone? Can you imagine him being driven to tears by the thought that he's failed his follower… [view original content]
Comments
I love the 'Sarah as medic AU' it's probably one of my favorite ideas for what could have been with her.
...When I finally get around to writing my fic about Clementine and Sarah I might explore that.
Kenny's presence in the Walking Dead feels like I've been eating the same grilled cheese sandwich for the past two years. At first, it was pretty good. Sometimes it had bacon in it. Sometimes it had tomato. And when I ate that last one, I was satisfied. I was happy with the servings of grilled cheese I had consumed. But then they started serving me more grilled cheese, and they put tuna and pickles and Vegemite, and the grilled cheese I was one satisfied with became unappealing and nauseating. The last sandwich I ate might have been delicious back in season one, but by the end of season 2, it was just a relief to finally swallow down the final morsel and be done with it.
Why do people want more grilled cheese.
Nobody told JT Petty "Hey, the main character saw a baby die." There's a difference between being ambiguous and just forgetting.
On a slightly different note:
What if Sarah's PTSD was tied to her mother's absence? It'd have been interesting if seeing her father die triggered memories of whatever horrible fate her mom suffered.
Ha, I'm also considering a AU of Season 2 that emphasizes Clem's relationship with Sarah. The idea of Sarah delivering Rebecca's baby and growing attached to him/her warms my grinch-like heart.
Well, I heard the term used in relation to him killing Matthew, actually. I do agree I'm frustrated by Matthew's robbed potential, especially seeing as he was an LGBT character of color, but the term still just puts me off.
Yeah, I'm 100% in support of a Howe's DLC. I'm immensely disappointed by the character change in Tavia (there's a hidden file in 400 Days that's a photograph of her in a suit w/ a flag pin, implying she was a politician--how did she go from that to the mean mook at Carver's?). And clarity on what happened with Carver and Rebecca is kind of necessary, I feel. I think he raped her, but she many people believe it was just an affair, and the fact it's so vague that no one can say for certain is kind of a problem... And yeah, I'm dying to learn more about Nick's mom. I found his entire family really complex and fascinating and honestly would have loved to see her alive and interacting with him and Pete, as well as all three of them surviving longer. Also, who the hell was George? That was... completely thrown away.
I want to see what was appealing about Howe's, but I also want to see deeper into the darker side of it. Not the physical violence, but whatever kind of manipulation and corruption going on that kept them under his thumb for so long and made them so terrified about him hunting them down and bringing them back. Carver was genuinely terrifying in episodes 1-2, but when we actually saw him in action, it was more like we'd been trapped in a playpen by a giant baby. The whole "overzealous" joke was so obnoxious and unnecessary. We're supposed to be frightened of Carver, not see him as a fool.
I'm sure seeing your father get ripped apart will be triggering regardless, but yeah, that'd be a really interesting and valid way to interpret her shut-down if we'd actually gotten the chance to learn anything about her mother, assuming she had one. When I heard about Sarah having PTSD it was my initial assumption that it was related to the fact she was with just her dad, but like I said... they don't even give us any indication about this.
Yet another reason for a Howe's DLC. We can learn more about Carlos and Sarah.
Tavia was a politician?! Jeez, that'd have been a great idea to explore!
What if she was the de-facto leader of the community, running things behind the scenes while leading Carver to believe he was in charge? Hell, Vince's cameo proves that Tavia wasn't as much of a hardliner as she presents herself to the prisoners. I can imagine the episode being different if she, like Bonnie, was growing uncomfortable with Carver and decided to overthrow him instead.
Besides, we've technically already played as Tavia before - she was the character who met all the 400 Days character, and aside from Bonnie she's the only one who's definitely ended up in Howe's.
I'd even like to see another DLC of her set after Season 2, but the opening of Amid The Ruins makes that problematic. Apparently you can see zombies sneaking up behind Tavia and the other guards on the roof, which makes her fate seem bleak. She'd need Kenny's plot armor.
Once I'm finished with my Arvo one I'm definitely going to explore the possibilities of Clem and Sarah's relationship, which in my opinion really should have been a much bigger part of S2. Bigger than Clementine and Kenny's relationship anyway.
Sarah deserved better than what she got, and the endings for Clementine really didn't make me feel like we got to determine her personality at all, just where she physically ended up. They'll be a lot harder to get right than Arvo because they've had more characterization than he has but I'm looking forward to writing them. As of now I've only got a few basic ideas floating around though, so I don't have much as of yet.
The image of Sarah taking care of Rebecca's baby warms my heart as well, actually.
Yep! Here's the image.
Tavia being the "woman behind the curtain" to Carver's Oz would be interesting... and make Carver's goonish, childlike behavior a lot easier to swallow.
After episode 2, when Howe's & the 400 Days group was still just a rumor, I was deadset on the idea that Tavia was running some kind of anti-Carver resistance group that helped people sneak out after he took over.
Amid The Ruins made... a lot of things problematic.
TBH, I think a lot of this neglect is due to rushed schedules, the demands of a shorter running time, and having too many characters and things to keep track of. It's easy for fans, months later, to rip apart every detail of the final product, but I can understand how writers can miss out a lot of things that could have made their works more effective.
There's a mystery behind Carlos. In episode 1, if you ask Sarah if Carlos has let people die before, she'll say "No...not on purpose...I don't know!" In the following episode, Luke warns Carlos not to "do anything crazy or...not nice." Perhaps this meant that he let George bleed out after Alvin shot him - if Carlos had killed another member of Howe's, I think Carver would have mentioned it.
There's also the subtext of Carver and Carlos disagreeing about fighting over how to treat Sarah. Carver refers to him as a "smug son of a bitch", deliberately tortures Carlos as a means of traumatizing Sarah, chooses to alienate Sarah from her dad by making him slap her, and finally decides to talk 'nicely' to her immediately after murdering Reggie. After that, however, we don't see any fallout of Carver's 'chat' to Sarah - the subplot is dropped.
In a Season 2 where Carver isn't murderized halfway through, I would've liked to have had this conflict explored further.
Either A 400 Days Like DLC that introduces us to our group in Season 3, what happens to Christa after she is separated from Clem, A Continuation of the 400 Days Characters, or all combined..............
Damn - I suppose that would've originally been on the board along with the other 400 Days survivors. Guess they didn't want to confuse players.
Seems ironic that Tavia ends up playing a subordinate role to a guy who, in most likelihood, wasn't exactly a powerful figure prior to the collapse. Deleted lines indicate that Carver was an engineer.
Also, what's to have stopped Arvo from being part of the survivors from Howe's? Would've been much less random, and then there'd be a compelling reason for Howe's survivors to take revenge on Clem for ruining them. The only reason I see for having Russians is the language barrier.
There was probably an issue with Michael Madsen, honestly. I don't know if it was pay, or scheduling, or what, but something tells me they intended to have Carver much longer than he actually ended up being in the game.
And yeah, definitely way too cooks in the kitchen in terms of characters. The whole "rapidly killing off characters with unfinished arcs and then cycling them with new characters that also get dropped" struck me as incredibly... amateur, to be truthful. It's one thing to have a sudden, unexpected death once and make that the meaning behind their arc (that people die before you get to know them, blah blah blah), but to do it over and over again is just bad writing and from a writer's perspective, just kind of sad. Wished they'd loved all their characters they way they loved Kenny. He's one of the few that actually got treated like a human rather than a plot device.
By the time the Russians were introduced, they might as well have had Clementine jump over a shark on water skis. It was bizarre and inexplicable and clearly only done for the sake of conflict to further the plot and nothing else... but it could have been done in so many ways that made more sense?
The Howe's survivors cornering them instead would have made so much more sense, and actually utilized the characters from 400 Days besides really disappointing cameos. I'm sure something could have been done where there's still a communication barrier even if they all speak English.
I need a Jaime DLC
Here's the thing:
In a strange way, I kinda liked how random and unsatisfying Nick's death was. Not everyone lives to get the 'redemption' they deserve. It WAS believable that he would die in a stupid, aggravating accident rather than heroically as a lot of people wanted him to, and in a way that does make him tragic. If only there was a better effort to mourn over him and acknowledge his absurd fate...
If the writers really were committed to being harshly realistic, then none of the other supporting characters would have been safe. Especially Kenny. Abruptly killing him off in a manner similar to Sarah or Nick would have been applauded by me, because it'd actually be a bold move and faithful to the "darkness" the writers claimed they were going for. His send-offs rang hollow to me because they were cheesily happy and quite at odds with how unflatteringly other characters were portrayed.
I know there's always the risk of going too far and making the darkness outright repulsive, but far as I'm concerned we already dealt with Clem's relationship with a daddy figure in the last season. This season could've had her relate more to sibling figures like Luke or Sarah.
or they just wanted to perma kill the determinant character they forgot to make do anything in episode 3
Even though I hate Nick's death, I kinda like it that sort of death too. Just a character abruptly dies, it would have been better on screen, but its whatever.
What's your fanfic called? I'd love to read it!
Personally, I was interested in exploring how Sarah would've responded to her trauma had she lived further past her father's death. Drawing parallels between her and Nick - a sensitive boy who hardened because he was expected to - and emphasizing the hints of a suicidal nature (her approaching the edge of Howe's roof in episode 3). Carver would have also been a more prominent character, having attributes of Kenny 2.0 grafted onto him.
I'm considering a scenario where Carver was able to take possession of his child, and due to a lack of other available survivors (he'd be one of the few who survives Howe's downfall) he forces Sarah to be its foster mother and Clem to be his own surrogate daughter. I'm morbidly interested in seeing if Sarah, driven hard enough, would be forced to question her morality ("Even when I'm really mad I still don't wanna hurt anyone") if it meant breaking herself, the baby and Clem free of Carver.
I don't think the writers actually intended it, but it seems like Arvo existed as a way for their beloved character to beat up a crippled foreigner and get away with it. Lazily relying on American prejudice against Russians/"Commies" - maybe they thought that they couldn't possibly be racist because they weren't using Latinos?
Having a conflict between Howe's loyalists and the escapees would also have made the civil war setting more apt - the escaped slaves vs the slavers. It's not like that damn statue was any less subtle.
I agree with Bokor, I'd love to see your fics, too.
I'm writing my own right now where Sarah survives the events of episode 4 (my second time trying, actually--hopefully I'll have more interest in continuing it to the end this time around). One cool thing that came out of these dissatisfying fates is a lot of people were motivated to get creative and explore those characters themselves.
I can see where you're coming from, but I'm waaaay too biased towards Nick to ever be satisfied with his second death, honestly.
Oh, it was still a stupid death and in retrospect I find it a rather bad waste of writing potential. I guess I'd already braced for it ever since he was made determinant in the second episode.
People liked Alvin's determinant death because they knew less about him AND it was a little more traditionally heroic. The nerdy, fat, "pussy-whipped" husband redeems himself by exchanging a tearful parting with Clem, taking Carver's weapon and engaging in a short-lived gunfight. Nick's, by contrast, is far lonelier and pathetic. I both like the idea while hating that it happened to a character like him.
Turning to fanfiction to deal with disappointing canon is something I've learned from other fandoms!
Yeah, idk... I feel like Luke's death was a better executed portrayal of a really sudden, "pathetic" kind of death--because he'd been a bigger character, and we knew more about him, and it came out of nowhere and we saw it all happen and it was just so damn sad to watch because you really couldn't do anything. Luke's death, like, honestly made me like him more, that's how bad I felt for him.
But Nick's death is sad in a way where it just makes me feel really miserable and pessimistic, both in context and from the perspective of a writer.
I can't get upset about Luke's death, because it WAS a much better send-off than any of the characters who died in Amid The Ruins. That's a 'shocking' death that I was able to swallow just fine, and I actually did like his character even though the conflict between him and Kenny was not particularly compelling.
It seems like both Nick & Luke gave out details about their backstory in the episodes they were slated to die - the writer knew that to give their deaths more weight, players should know details about the character that weren't necessarily relevant to the plot. Luke being an art-history major or Nick pursuing a failed business venture doesn't have any bearing on the story, but it DOES give a glimpse into the life they had prior to the zombies. In Episode 5, we even learn more about Kenny's life and his father (hinted to be an abusive one).
Unfortunately the same courtesy wasn't provided for Sarah, Rebecca or Sarita - the latter of which breaks the 4th wall to wail "I'm dead, I'm dead!"
I would trade AJ for a Cabin Group backstory DLC.
Oooh I'd like that. Like if she'd survived after Jane left her? Gimme!
In response to the Tavia photograph--I like how they've added little details to this photo. Namely, the folded creases, indicating the photo's been folded into quarters and probably stowed somewhere. But it's not crisp and new as if it was folded once and then put into storage; clearly it's worn as if the photo was opened up and then folded closed again many times, or perhaps the photo was carried around in someone's pocket. And this could be stretching it a bit, but it doesn't look like a normal glossy photo that would get worn; it looks more like the paper from a newspaper clipping.
It could be that Tavia was honored for some achievement that made its way into a periodical. So I imagine Tavia may have carried the photo/clipping around with her, and opened it up and looked at it from time to time, perhaps to remind herself of who she used to be, or to remind herself what she still wants to do, even if the ZA is forcing her to become other things like working under Carver. I also like the idea that Tavia was the "woman behind the curtain," but I still think Carver's manipulative behavior proves he's certainly capable of some politics himself, even if all of his actions don't seem to support this.
Then it's interesting how at the end of 400 Days, the other characters decide to just burn their photos. This is probably done to symbolize how these characters wanted to move forward from their pasts, and also move forward from the past sins they've committed in the ZA or before. As @Bokor's mentioned, perhaps it was also to symbolize hope (with the whole fire = hope metaphor) for the future, when moving onto what they could hope was a fresh start at Howe's. I wonder if originally Tavia had the option to burn her photo too, but decided not to. I like to imagine that she still hangs on to that photo, and she still wants to be the leader depicted in that photo as well.
Well, that couldn't have been a more appropriate analogy for my case. Cause I hate grilled cheese to begin with.
yeah, coz im fehking curious about jamie xD
Well, you could look at a Kenny dlc being like watching an episode of "How it's Made" about grilled cheese on the Discovery channel
I don't know if that makes it worse or better, though
That fic isn't ready yet, actually. I'm hoping I can put out the first chapter sometime during winter break, but I'm going through a lot of rewrites right now so we'll see.
I really like the idea you have, especially if Carver is going to be prominent in it. Seeing him cause trouble out in the open without having a home base to trap people in (Unless once the herd moves on like it did in the Jane ending you'll have him return with the remaining survivors) like he did in the second episode would be fun to write about.
I've often thought about that line from Sarah as well. I've got a lot of questions I have to come up with answers to regarding Sarah and, "at what point will she begin to reconsider not wanting to hurt others?" Is a big one. We already see her ask how to use a gun, which at the time I thought would be some sort of foreshadowing that she and Clem may end up in a dangerous situation where they'd have to work together, but this never happened.
Fanfiction helps ease the pain of all the unresolved and underdeveloped characters and plot lines this season.
@skoothz
Can I see your fanfics? I'm curious.
I wasn't interested in making fanfiction for this series until Season 2. The discussions on this forum, particularly the ideas Jaded X Gamer brought, have been quite encouraging in re-visualizing Clementine's story.
As it is, Carver fails to elicit the sense that he ever was a good man to begin with - from his first appearance he reeks of sociopath, something that Kenny isn't. I'm not interested in downplaying or excusing his evil actions, but I do prefer the idea of him making attempts to earn Clem's trust through humanity (showing concern for his followers) rather than being 100% Social Darwinist. Telltale took pains to try and convince people that Kenny was redeemable by having him be self-aware and show genuine concern for the children's welfare.
Can you imagine Carver holding a baby with joy? Can you see him risking his life to save someone? Can you imagine him being driven to tears by the thought that he's failed his followers? A villain who isn't actually a Terminator in disguise would be a more believable one
And I see Sarah as a great foil to him. Hyper-sensitive, quiet, friendly to a fault. She might not be the Untermensch Carver wants children to grow into, but she doesn't have to be. Any wannabe dictator/abusive patriarch would see the value in using docile women for domestic purposes, particularly child-care.
Clementine confirmed for season 3.
Season 2 Aftermath DLC myth busted.
;A;
its tasty
I wasn't interested in writing fanfic for the series until this season either. "Screw canon, I'll write my own," is a really common saying nowadays it seems. I used to shy away from fanfiction out of the fear of not being good enough (I still fear this.) but I feel like the things I want to write need to be written, because the characters I care enough to write about have been seriously neglected by canon (And a big reason I care about them is because of that, so I think it's like some weird paradox) and I just can't resist the urge to write.
A more developed Carver would be great. The only times we are given anything on his humanity is when we are told about it. We are just supposed to assume he's actually got good qualities, or did at one point. But half-assed parallels of him to Kenny, and Bonnie making a comment about how stressed out he is just doesn't do it for me. I think it would have helped if we got to witness him actually interacting with the members of the community that aren't in the prison, if he was really that much of a sociopathic tyrant towards everyone else surely somebody would have been able to stage a successful mutiny against him(?)
Maybe Carver could gradually come to decide that Sarah would be better suited to being the care-taker of his child instead of attempting to mold her into a bloodthirsty killer or whatever it was he was trying to accomplish by having Carlos hit her.