Just imagine how Christa would feel if Clementine consistently chose Kenny over her after caring for her for around two years. This would be painful, especially in certain playthroughs if Kenny refuses too look for Clementine in Around Every Corner over a grudge against Lee, her former guardian. Wonder if Clementine would feel betrayed having known that Kenny considered abandoning her at one time when she was kidnapped by the Stranger?
To be honest, I happen to agree with you that the non-canon death in this scene makes no sense. I'm just pointing out that Kenny has, in fact, inadvertently endangered Clem several times, no matter how unrealistic the scenario.
There's a pretty large difference in endangering someone and nearly getting them killed. Of course having a bite victim around does increase danger, but there's no reason why it should have been a problem, as I said in my last comment. It's on the group if they're seriously careless enough to not take any precautions. That's independent of Kenny having a tough time dealing with the reality that his son wasn't going to make it. And again, that little debate with him only took around two minutes anyway. It's hardly reasonable to imply that he nearly got Clementine killed over a two minute conversation. And again, this conversation with Kenny is independent of making sure that Duck wasn't going to be a problem. It was on the group to make sure that happened, not just Kenny.
Let's not forget that everyone else couldn't actually help Clem. Bonnie and Rebecca were separated from her, and Luke and Nick were focused on Sarah. The difference between Kenny and Jane in this scene is that Kenny left Clem while they were in the midst of fighting off walkers and he knew she was still in danger; meanwhile, Jane came across Clem after she got some more guts on herself and thus knew she was safe for the time being. Really, both Kenny and Mike were being stupidly irresponsible here for running off without Clem, much like how Kenny was irresponsible for wandering away from Sarita while in the herd for literally no reason. Not to say Sarita couldn't defend herself, but there was literally no reason for Kenny to have wandered off. Bonnie, Carlos and Sarita all had the sense to stay near Clem and Sarah to protect them.
I haven't played the episode in a really long time so my memory may be a little foggy, but I'm pretty sure Jane told everyone to spread out, which is probably why they weren't all near one another when things fell apart. And regardless of various members of the group being separated, no one made an effort to go out of their way to find Clem and help her out. As unrealistic as it may have been, no one in the game really treated Clementine as someone that needed her hand held. They treated her as an equal in many, many cases. So it only makes sense that this is how it went down during that scene. This wasn't a case of Season One where Clem needed to be protected. Realistically it probably should have been, but that just isn't how it was, and I suppose that has everything to do with her being the single protagonist of the story. I honestly didn't even question the fact that no one was going out of their way to try and find Clem, because again, that just wouldn't really be consistent with how the game was played.
So yes, Kenny and Mike both just kind of ran ahead and expected Clem to follow, but if we counted every single time Clem was made to be self dependent in that season, we would have quite a lengthy list of characters who "nearly not her killed". And in Kenny's defense, he was dealing with either having to get bitten Sarita out of the herd, or just seeing her get ripped apart and killed in front of his eyes. Realistically that easily would have been more on his mind than ensuring the safety of other individuals. Most people would be completely out of their heads if they saw something like that happen. It's kind of silly that so many anti Kenny individuals simply expected him to be like: "Damn, that sucks. Oh well. FOLLOW ME CLEM, LET'S GET OUTTA HERE."
As I said, I agree that both Kenny and Mike were doing fuck all to help Clem here. Arvo was not a threat to anyone, Jane was the only one frantically looking for a way to save Clem ("She needs a fire! She's gonna fucking freeze to death!" she exclaims as Kenny does little else but glare at Arvo). Also, Kenny beat on Arvo for around a minute only because CLEM INTERVENED (if you remain silent, Mike has to forcibly restrain Kenny to stop him). So yeah, it's clear Clem's well-being was not top-priority for Kenny here. And once again, I'll cut Bonnie some slack as she was determinate by this point.
In my playthrough, Kenny stopped beating Arvo on his own, within the same time frame. If you tell Mike to "let him go", Mike doesn't do anything. Anyway, you can argue that Clementine's condition was pushed to the side in Kenny's mind here, but that's nowhere near the same as nearly getting her killed. Could he have shown a little more care for her condition? Yes. Did he almost get her killed? No. His little incident with Arvo didn't put her in any more danger than she was already in. There is no way her condition was possibly going to significantly worsen to that extent in a matter of minutes.
Anyway, I really wasn't meaning to get into this drawn out discussion, not sure how that happened. Were there times where Kenny debatably could have done more to ensure Clementine's safety? Sure, but all in all the idea of Kenny almost getting Clementine killed several times is a huge exaggeration.
Oh my god, you remember me :O
Why is it solely up to Kenny to make sure Duck doesn't turn and kill everyone?...
To be honest, … moreI happen to agree with you that the non-canon death in this scene makes no sense. I'm just pointing out that Kenny has, in fact, inadvertently endangered Clem several times, no matter how unrealistic the scenario. I mean, Arvo shooting Clem was absurdly unrealistic, yet people seem to think that's a valid reason to hate him nonetheless...
No one went out of their way to help Clementine in that situation
Let's not forget that everyone else couldn't actually help Clem. Bonnie and Rebecca were separated from her, and Luke and Nick were focused on Sarah. The difference between Kenny and Jane in this scene is that Kenny left Clem while they were in the midst of fighting off walkers and he knew she was still in danger; meanwhile, Jane came across Clem after she got some more guts on herself and th… [view original content]
I haven't played the episode in a really long time so my memory may be a little foggy, but I'm pretty sure Jane told everyone to spread out, which is probably why they weren't all near one another when things fell apart. And regardless of various members of the group being separated, no one made an effort to go out of their way to find Clem and help her out. As unrealistic as it may have been, no one in the game really treated Clementine as someone that needed her hand held. They treated her as an equal in many, many cases. So it only makes sense that that it is how it went down during that scene. This wasn't a case of Season One where Clem needed to be protected. Realistically it probably should have been, but that just isn't how it was, and I suppose that has everything to do with her being the single protagonist of the story. I honestly didn't even question the fact that no one was going out of their way to try and find Clem, because again, that just wouldn't really be consistent with how the game was played.
Bonnie and Sarita were close enough to Sarah and Clem to help them out, so Kenny had no excuse for leaving Sarita . I suppose when Jane told them to spread out, Kenny took it waaaay too far to the point that he completely separated from Sarita. And why do you assume the other characters weren't trying to find Clem? Besides Kenny and Mike, who left her, and Nick and Luke, who were concerned with Sarah, the only other characters that could've potentially been looking for Clem were Rebecca (which is what she was doing), Bonnie (who was missing for the beginning of episode 4) and Jane (who, let's be honest, didn't care about Clem at this point).
So yes, Kenny and Mike both just kind of ran ahead and expected Clem to follow, but if we counted every single time Clem was made to be self dependent in that season, we would have quite a lengthy list of characters who "nearly not her killed". And in Kenny's defense, he was dealing with either having to get bitten Sarita out of the herd, or just seeing her get ripped apart and killed in front of his eyes. Realistically that easily would have been more on his mind than ensuring the safety of other individuals. Most people would be completely out of their heads if they something like that happen. It's kind of silly that so many anti Kenny individuals simply expected him to be like: "Damn, that sucks. Oh well. FOLLOW ME CLEM, LET'S GET OUTTA HERE."
Kenny leaves Clem behind even if you kill the walker instead of cutting Sarita's arm...
In my playthrough, Kenny stopped beating Arvo on his own, within the same time frame. If you tell Mike to "let him go", Mike doesn't do anything. Anyway, you can argue that Clementine's condition was pushed to the side in Kenny's mind here, but that's nowhere near the same as nearly getting her killed. His little incident with Arvo didn't put her in any more danger than she was already in. There is no way her condition was possibly going to significantly worsen in a matter of minutes... let alone her freezing to death.
Actually, telling Mike to "let him go" results in Mike forcibly restraining Kenny...
And fair enough, I agree that getting Clem killed is a bit hyperbolic. Kenny has, however, certainly risked her safety several times and, in some cases, didn't even care about her safety.
To be honest, I happen to agree with you that the non-canon death in this scene makes no sense. I'm just pointing out that Kenny has, in fac… moret, inadvertently endangered Clem several times, no matter how unrealistic the scenario.
There's a pretty large difference in endangering someone and nearly getting them killed. Of course having a bite victim around does increase danger, but there's no reason why it should have been a problem, as I said in my last comment. It's on the group if they're seriously careless enough to not take any precautions. That's independent of Kenny having a tough time dealing with the reality that his son wasn't going to make it. And again, that little debate with him only took around two minutes anyway. It's hardly reasonable to imply that he nearly got Clementine killed over a two minute conversation. And again, this conversation with Kenny is independent of making sure that Duck wasn't going to be a problem. It… [view original content]
It's been awhile for me as well, but I went back and checked this scene out at one point. He only attacks you if you straight up ask for a fight or if you goad him into one by purposely and maliciously antagonizing him. There is no other way to get into a fight with him. If all you did was be supportive, then there was no way for Kenny to attack you. The only supportive route available is the one that convinces him to stop the train.
It's been quite awhile since I played so I don't remember exactly how it went down but let's just say I'm not taking all the blame here. I w… moreas trying to make my Lee supportive of Kenny and he kept getting smacked down. Kenny solves conflicts with his fists or his sharp tongue and at the time, I did not appreciate it.
Bonnie and Sarita were close enough to Sarah and Clem to help them out, so Kenny had no excuse for leaving Sarita . I suppose when Jane told them to spread out, Kenny took it waaaay too far to the point that he completely separated from Sarita. And why do you assume the other characters weren't trying to find Clem? Besides Kenny and Mike, who left her, and Nick and Luke, who were concerned with Sarah, the only other characters that could've potentially been looking for Clem were Rebecca (which is what she was doing), Bonnie (who was missing for the beginning of episode 4) and Jane (who, let's be honest, didn't care about Clem at this point).
I went back and checked, and Kenny really wasn't all that far away...
Anyway, as I said above: "As unrealistic as it may have been, no one in the game really treated Clementine as someone that needed her hand held. They treated her as an equal in many, many cases. So it only makes sense that this is how it went down during that scene. This wasn't a case of Season One where Clem needed to be protected. Realistically it probably should have been, but that just isn't how it was, and I suppose that has everything to do with her being the single protagonist of the story. I honestly didn't even question the fact that no one was going out of their way to try and find Clem, because again, that just wouldn't really be consistent with how the game was played."
I guess Rebecca may have been looking for her, but I'm just going to assume that no one else was. It's not as if they were miles apart from one another. They were more or less all in the same vicinity. It wouldn't have been hard to find her if anyone actually made that their priority instead of sticking to the plan of meeting up at their destination if separated. Everyone stuck to the plan, with the exception of Luke and Nick who ran after Sarah. One of those two easily could have stayed with Clem, but they didn't even give her a second thought.
Kenny leaves Clem behind even if you kill the walker instead of cutting Sarita's arm.
Like I said, Kenny was then preoccupied with Sarita. He had her by the arm and was trying to lead her out of there as quick as possible.
Actually, telling Mike to "let him go" results in Mike forcibly restraining Kenny...
Weird, I could have sworn Mike left him alone in that case. I went back and checked and he does in fact lift Kenny off of Arvo. At that point Kenny wasn't even punching him though. Anyway, this is really a total side point to what we were discussing. Yes, Kenny could have been helping Jane get a fire together instead of getting into a fight with Arvo, but this wasn't something that seriously put Clem in danger. He could have been a bit more caring... but unfortunately his anger distracted him from that.
And fair enough, I agree that getting Clem killed is a bit hyperbolic. Kenny has, however, certainly risked her safety several times and, in some cases, didn't even care about her safety.
I would say that he absolutely cared about her safety, even if he wasn't always there to walk her through every danger she encountered, and in doing so didn't protect her safety to the full extent of what he could have (with Clem being the protagonist, this just wouldn't work). He certainly did not want anything bad to happen to her, and if it would have, he would have been devastated. I personally don't think he brought upon any noteworthy danger towards her, with the exception of him wanting her to be involved in his truck escape plan.
Anyway though, I'm glad that we're in agreement that the initial statement was an exaggeration... which is what lead to this whole conversation lol. That's all I was really trying to say.
I haven't played the episode in a really long time so my memory may be a little foggy, but I'm pretty sure Jane told everyone to spread out,… more which is probably why they weren't all near one another when things fell apart. And regardless of various members of the group being separated, no one made an effort to go out of their way to find Clem and help her out. As unrealistic as it may have been, no one in the game really treated Clementine as someone that needed her hand held. They treated her as an equal in many, many cases. So it only makes sense that that it is how it went down during that scene. This wasn't a case of Season One where Clem needed to be protected. Realistically it probably should have been, but that just isn't how it was, and I suppose that has everything to do with her being the single protagonist of the story. I honestly didn't even question the fact that no one was going out of their way to try and find Clem, because again… [view original content]
Kenny was so far away from Sarita that he didn't even notice she was in trouble until she was either covered in walkers or already bitten.
Anyway, as I said above: "As unrealistic as it may have been, no one in the game really treated Clementine as someone that needed her hand held. They treated her as an equal in many, many cases. So it only makes sense that that it is how it went down during that scene. This wasn't a case of Season One where Clem needed to be protected. Realistically it probably should have been, but that just isn't how it was, and I suppose that has everything to do with her being the single protagonist of the story. I honestly didn't even question the fact that no one was going out of their way to try and find Clem, because again, that just wouldn't really be consistent with how the game was played."
I guess Rebecca may have been looking for her, but I'm just going to assume that no one else was. It's not as if they were miles apart from one another. They were more or less all in the same vicinity. It wouldn't have been hard to find her if anyone actually made that their priority instead of sticking to the plan of meeting up at their destination if separated. Everyone stuck to the plan, with the exception of Luke and Nick who ran after Sarah. One of those two easily could have stayed with Clem, but they didn't even give her a second thought.
Yeah, I'll chalk this up to the characters' bizarre insistence of treating Clem like a fully-grown adult. Regardless, Kenny was still being irresponsible by leaving Clem to fend for herself. The other characters' negligence doesn't excuse him.
Like I said, Kenny was then preoccupied with Sarita. He had her by the arm and was trying to lead her out of there as quick as possible.
Sarita wasn't even dead in this scenario, but Kenny doesn't even seem to think twice about Clem here. Though I guess you could argue he was so concerned with getting Sarita out he didn't even notice he left Clem?
Weird, I could have sworn Mike left him alone in that case. I went back and checked and he does in fact lift Kenny off of Arvo. At that point Kenny wasn't even punching him though. Anyway, this is really a total side point to what we were discussing. Yes, Kenny could have been helping Jane get a fire together instead of getting into a fight with Arvo, but this wasn't something that seriously put Clem in danger. He could have been a bit more caring... but unfortunately his anger distracted him from that.
I'm not sure why you're downplaying Clem's situation here so much. Freezing to death was totally possible for her, the fact that Kenny didn't even seem to think of this is a big problem. If Clem's well-being was top priority for him, he would've been frantically trying to find firewood.
In any case, I think this discussion's pretty much over, since you've conceded that Kenny has put Clem at risk before, and I've conceded he's never nearly got her killed. I dunno, I'd still choose Christa :P
Bonnie and Sarita were close enough to Sarah and Clem to help them out, so Kenny had no excuse for leaving Sarita . I suppose when Jane told… more them to spread out, Kenny took it waaaay too far to the point that he completely separated from Sarita. And why do you assume the other characters weren't trying to find Clem? Besides Kenny and Mike, who left her, and Nick and Luke, who were concerned with Sarah, the only other characters that could've potentially been looking for Clem were Rebecca (which is what she was doing), Bonnie (who was missing for the beginning of episode 4) and Jane (who, let's be honest, didn't care about Clem at this point).
I went back and checked, and Kenny really wasn't all that far away...
Anyway, as I said above: "As unrealistic as it may have been, no one in the game really treated Clementine as someone that needed her hand held. They treated her as an equal in many, many cases. So it only makes sense that th… [view original content]
Kenny was so far away from Sarita that he didn't even notice she was in trouble until she was either covered in walkers or already bitten.
That doesn't seem very far away. He and Mike were busy fighting walkers of their own, which is why I would assume that they didn't notice Sarita in trouble.
Yeah, I'll chalk this up to the characters' bizarre insistence of treating Clem like a fully-grown adult. Regardless, Kenny was still being irresponsible by leaving Clem to fend for herself. The other characters' negligence doesn't excuse him.
I suppose I could see someone calling it irresponsible in a case of him not being involved in either Sarita's horrific death or escorting her out of the herd after being bitten, but considering his actual situation and the way Clementine is treated in the game, it doesn't seem very reasonable to label him as irresponsible. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on that, though.
Sarita wasn't even dead in this scenario, but Kenny doesn't even seem to think twice about Clem here. Though I guess you could argue he was so concerned with getting Sarita out he didn't even notice he left Clem?
I don't know that I would say that he didn't notice Clem, only that Sarita became his priority at that point, with her being bitten and all. Given what happened to her, wouldn't you think Kenny would want to get her out of there as soon as possible?
I'm not sure why you're downplaying Clem's situation here so much. Freezing to death was totally possible for her, the fact that Kenny didn't even seem to think of this is a big problem. If Clem's well-being was top priority for him, he would've been frantically trying to find firewood.
Freezing to death was certainly a possibility, but it's not something that would happen in a matter of a few minutes. It's not like she was just going to suddenly drop dead because the group took an extra minute or two to get a fire going. Just because anger clouded Kenny's judgement in that particular scene doesn't mean he didn't consider Clem a top priority.
In any case, I think this discussion's pretty much over, since you've conceded that Kenny has put Clem at risk before, and I've conceded he's never nearly got her killed. I dunno, I'd still choose Christa :P
Yeah, I definitely agree that he has risked her safety before in the fact that he didn't always go all out in making sure nothing could possibly happen to her, I just really don't think it's anything all that noteworthy, considering her role as the protagonist and the way that she was treated throughout the entire season by everyone. Telltale couldn't really have him (or anyone) play the ultimate protector role considering that would make for a pretty boring experience as the protagonist.
Anyway though, like you said, I think we know where we both fall on this matter at this point. Just thought I'd give my reasoning.
Kenny really wasn't very far away...
Kenny was so far away from Sarita that he didn't even notice she was in trouble until she was e… moreither covered in walkers or already bitten.
Anyway, as I said above: "As unrealistic as it may have been, no one in the game really treated Clementine as someone that needed her hand held. They treated her as an equal in many, many cases. So it only makes sense that that it is how it went down during that scene. This wasn't a case of Season One where Clem needed to be protected. Realistically it probably should have been, but that just isn't how it was, and I suppose that has everything to do with her being the single protagonist of the story. I honestly didn't even question the fact that no one was going out of their way to try and find Clem, because again, that just wouldn't really be consistent with how the game was played."
I guess Rebecca may have been looking for her, but I'm just going… [view original content]
You're forgetting that from the time everything started going to shit (the moment Sarah saw her father killed in front of her) Clementine saw Sarita first. It took Clementine around ninety seconds to navigate her way around several walkers before finding Sarita bitten. After that, Clementine had enough time to either kill the walker or chop Sarita's arm off, all this taking another twenty seconds. We then get a moment in which Clem and Sarita get to react to the situation at hand.
All that was before Kenny even knew where Sarita was, the woman he so defensively claims he "loves." He was far enough that by the time he got to her, it was past too late.
Kenny was so far away from Sarita that he didn't even notice she was in trouble until she was either covered in walkers or already bitten.
… more
That doesn't seem very far away. He and Mike were busy fighting walkers of their own, which is why I would assume that they didn't notice Sarita in trouble.
Yeah, I'll chalk this up to the characters' bizarre insistence of treating Clem like a fully-grown adult. Regardless, Kenny was still being irresponsible by leaving Clem to fend for herself. The other characters' negligence doesn't excuse him.
I suppose I could see someone calling it irresponsible in a case of him not being involved in either Sarita's horrific death or escorting her out of the herd after being bitten, but considering his actual situation and the way Clementine is treated in the game, it doesn't seem very reasonable to label him as irresponsible. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on that, though.
Sarita wa… [view original content]
curiously, would you save Kenny if he was at the end of knife?
probably not but still, did you shoot him cause he's freakin Kenny or because he was about to stab someone?
You mean when Lee says something like if I have to beat your ass to make you stop, I'll do it? He didn't have to take the bait. He just got tired of attacking Lee with words.
It's been awhile for me as well, but I went back and checked this scene out at one point. He only attacks you if you straight up ask for a f… moreight or if you goad him into one by purposely and maliciously antagonizing him. There is no other way to get into a fight with him. If all you did was be supportive, then there was no way for Kenny to attack you. The only supportive route available is the one that convinces him to stop the train.
Kenny was so far away from Sarita that he didn't even notice she was in trouble until she was either covered in walkers or already bitten.
I don't know if it's fair to blame him for this. It's hard enough getting separated from people in a large crowd and finding them in real life, and it's even harder with a bunch of ravenous corpses that will destroy you if you make one wrong move and attract their attention. All it takes is one or two of them walking in front of you at the right time to completely separate you from everyone else.
Not to mention that if you bump into one or try fighting them or pushing them off, you run the risk of attracting even more of them towards you, making it even more difficult to get back. All you can really do is sift through them, trying to find openings and hope for the best. It isn't something that'd be the same for everyone since it's pretty much luck based. One person could have it super easy to find someone they were split off from, having to do nothing more than move around a small cluster of walkers, while another person like Kenny could just keep getting walled off by more and more of them.
Kenny and Sarita started out together, side by side. After everything goes to hell, they have lines that explicitly reference the fact that they got split up. Sarita calls out for Kenny's help after Carlos is shot, and Kenny replies saying that he can't reach her.
In fact, no one that started out together managed to fully stay together now that I think of it. Luke and Nick started out together, Rebecca, Mike and Bonnie were all close together, Kenny and Sarita were close together, and Jane was pretty much going off by herself. By the end of it, you have Clem and Sarah together, Sarita and Bonnie close enough to try to defend the two of you, and everyone else is nowhere to be seen. Sarah runs off, leaving you to fend by yourself, eventually managing to run into Sarita again, who was once again split off from you. Speaking of which, despite Sarita and Bonnie being near by, Bonnie ends up being nowhere to be seen. Then after that in episode 4, Kenny and Mike find each other, then find both you and Sarita, then you get split off from them once again (which isn't specifically their fault. Clem starts getting boxed in, stumbles and nearly falls over, then regains her balance only to be lost in the sea of the dead once more). You fight off a couple of walkers, and then see Luke and Nick run off together going after Sarah, leaving you in the middle of the dead again. You continue fighting even more, then find Rebecca again, who claims she was with Luke (who she didn't even start out with in episode 3), while Jane, Bonnie and Sarah are nowhere to be found. Then you run back into Jane, leaving Bonnie MIA. Then you escape into the forest, not seeing any of the other characters again until you reach the meeting spot.
That whole situation was a clusterfuck where the entire group was cut off and split from one another, despite all of them starting side by side or in pairs. Not a single grouping that started from the loading docks made it all the way to the meeting spot without being split up at least once or twice in the chaos.
Kenny really wasn't very far away...
Kenny was so far away from Sarita that he didn't even notice she was in trouble until she was e… moreither covered in walkers or already bitten.
Anyway, as I said above: "As unrealistic as it may have been, no one in the game really treated Clementine as someone that needed her hand held. They treated her as an equal in many, many cases. So it only makes sense that that it is how it went down during that scene. This wasn't a case of Season One where Clem needed to be protected. Realistically it probably should have been, but that just isn't how it was, and I suppose that has everything to do with her being the single protagonist of the story. I honestly didn't even question the fact that no one was going out of their way to try and find Clem, because again, that just wouldn't really be consistent with how the game was played."
I guess Rebecca may have been looking for her, but I'm just going… [view original content]
Christa would be better than anyone at this point, because that time-skip was dumb and helped undervalue all other guardians and time spent with Clementine, even as Lee
If that was the case it wouldn't be up to clem because crista would kick kennys ass and mop the floor with him before clem even knew what was going on! Crista was one strong woman she was obviously attacked when she was at her weakest at the beginning, poor crista
And now we wait for when it inevitably switches back around (especially if they give Kenny any kind of death that could be considered respectful/heroic/etc)
I really hope Clem doesn't show up in season 3. Especially if she went to Wellington. Though, considering the fact that TTG has made Kenny right in pretty much every conflict ever, I wouldn't be surprised. I will be sad once there's no more Gavin Hammon, though. He's a great voice actor, and a pretty awesome dude, too.
And now we wait for when it inevitably switches back around (especially if they give Kenny any kind of death that could be considered respectful/heroic/etc)
I'm banking on this happening, just watch
Well, this certainly reflects different than your original statement of: "Yeah, Kenny then proceeded to try to beat my Lee to death for trying to help his family. One of the many moments he infuriated me throughout the season."
I mean, if you're openly admitting that you baited the guy into a fight, I'm not sure what you have to complain about. If you went that route instead of actually being supportive and reasonable with him in a time of emotional fragility, then you can't honestly criticize the guy for giving it back to you and then act like all you were trying to do was help the guy. If that was actually the case, you wouldn't have baited him into a fight/ threatened him.
You mean when Lee says something like if I have to beat your ass to make you stop, I'll do it? He didn't have to take the bait. He just got tired of attacking Lee with words.
Of course I'm not forgetting this. The point still stands that Kenny physically was not all that far away. Who even knows what he was dealing with at the time of Sarita being bitten. I'm really failing to see why this is a big deal anyway. People were spread out, it is what it is. Arguing over the extent of which they were spread out is really pointless.
That doesn't seem very far away
You're forgetting that from the time everything started going to shit (the moment Sarah saw her fath… moreer killed in front of her) Clementine saw Sarita first. It took Clementine around ninety seconds to navigate her way around several walkers before finding Sarita bitten. After that, Clementine had enough time to either kill the walker or chop Sarita's arm off, all this taking another twenty seconds. We then get a moment in which Clem and Sarita get to react to the situation at hand.
All that was before Kenny even knew where Sarita was, the woman he so defensively claims he "loves." He was far enough that by the time he got to her, it was past too late.
Christa......I don't think it would ever come down to Kenny and Christa fighting one another, but that Clem could only save one or the other
like I've said in other posts...it should've been Christa at ski lodge and the choice at the end of S2 woulda been harder if we had to choose b/t Christa or Jane.
Christa was a mother once herself...she would never put a baby, let alone her own baby in danger, in the freezing cold, just to teach Clementine a lesson...remember she kinda lectured Lee about taking Clem into the abandoned building in S1....
Depends on if Christa did the same stupid thing Jane did. Even then, it'd probably come down to who was about to stab who.
I could never see Christa doing something like that though, so if Kenny just attacked her for no reason I'd save her.
I have done multiple playthroughs. In one, I talked Kenny down. In another, I fought with him. In both, Kenny was being extremely hostile. The "beat to death" comment was clearly an exaggeration but my point was that Kenny, no matter how you treat him, gives you grief back. You must have seen this. That's what frustrated me.
Well, this certainly reflects different than your original statement of: "Yeah, Kenny then proceeded to try to beat my Lee to death for tryi… moreng to help his family. One of the many moments he infuriated me throughout the season."
I mean, if you're openly admitting that you baited the guy into a fight, I'm not sure what you have to complain about. If you went that route instead of actually being supportive and reasonable with him in a time of emotional fragility, then you can't honestly criticize the guy for giving it back to you and then act like all you were trying to do was help the guy. If that was actually the case, you wouldn't have baited him into a fight/ threatened him.
Comments
Kenny.
:O
Christa, hands down.
Just imagine how Christa would feel if Clementine consistently chose Kenny over her after caring for her for around two years. This would be painful, especially in certain playthroughs if Kenny refuses too look for Clementine in Around Every Corner over a grudge against Lee, her former guardian. Wonder if Clementine would feel betrayed having known that Kenny considered abandoning her at one time when she was kidnapped by the Stranger?
curiously, would you save Kenny if he was at the end of knife?
probably not but still, did you shoot him cause he's freakin Kenny or because he was about to stab someone?
Kenny i guess. I barley remember her.
There's a pretty large difference in endangering someone and nearly getting them killed. Of course having a bite victim around does increase danger, but there's no reason why it should have been a problem, as I said in my last comment. It's on the group if they're seriously careless enough to not take any precautions. That's independent of Kenny having a tough time dealing with the reality that his son wasn't going to make it. And again, that little debate with him only took around two minutes anyway. It's hardly reasonable to imply that he nearly got Clementine killed over a two minute conversation. And again, this conversation with Kenny is independent of making sure that Duck wasn't going to be a problem. It was on the group to make sure that happened, not just Kenny.
I haven't played the episode in a really long time so my memory may be a little foggy, but I'm pretty sure Jane told everyone to spread out, which is probably why they weren't all near one another when things fell apart. And regardless of various members of the group being separated, no one made an effort to go out of their way to find Clem and help her out. As unrealistic as it may have been, no one in the game really treated Clementine as someone that needed her hand held. They treated her as an equal in many, many cases. So it only makes sense that this is how it went down during that scene. This wasn't a case of Season One where Clem needed to be protected. Realistically it probably should have been, but that just isn't how it was, and I suppose that has everything to do with her being the single protagonist of the story. I honestly didn't even question the fact that no one was going out of their way to try and find Clem, because again, that just wouldn't really be consistent with how the game was played.
So yes, Kenny and Mike both just kind of ran ahead and expected Clem to follow, but if we counted every single time Clem was made to be self dependent in that season, we would have quite a lengthy list of characters who "nearly not her killed". And in Kenny's defense, he was dealing with either having to get bitten Sarita out of the herd, or just seeing her get ripped apart and killed in front of his eyes. Realistically that easily would have been more on his mind than ensuring the safety of other individuals. Most people would be completely out of their heads if they saw something like that happen. It's kind of silly that so many anti Kenny individuals simply expected him to be like: "Damn, that sucks. Oh well. FOLLOW ME CLEM, LET'S GET OUTTA HERE."
In my playthrough, Kenny stopped beating Arvo on his own, within the same time frame. If you tell Mike to "let him go", Mike doesn't do anything. Anyway, you can argue that Clementine's condition was pushed to the side in Kenny's mind here, but that's nowhere near the same as nearly getting her killed. Could he have shown a little more care for her condition? Yes. Did he almost get her killed? No. His little incident with Arvo didn't put her in any more danger than she was already in. There is no way her condition was possibly going to significantly worsen to that extent in a matter of minutes.
Anyway, I really wasn't meaning to get into this drawn out discussion, not sure how that happened. Were there times where Kenny debatably could have done more to ensure Clementine's safety? Sure, but all in all the idea of Kenny almost getting Clementine killed several times is a huge exaggeration.
Bonnie and Sarita were close enough to Sarah and Clem to help them out, so Kenny had no excuse for leaving Sarita . I suppose when Jane told them to spread out, Kenny took it waaaay too far to the point that he completely separated from Sarita. And why do you assume the other characters weren't trying to find Clem? Besides Kenny and Mike, who left her, and Nick and Luke, who were concerned with Sarah, the only other characters that could've potentially been looking for Clem were Rebecca (which is what she was doing), Bonnie (who was missing for the beginning of episode 4) and Jane (who, let's be honest, didn't care about Clem at this point).
Kenny leaves Clem behind even if you kill the walker instead of cutting Sarita's arm...
Actually, telling Mike to "let him go" results in Mike forcibly restraining Kenny...
And fair enough, I agree that getting Clem killed is a bit hyperbolic. Kenny has, however, certainly risked her safety several times and, in some cases, didn't even care about her safety.
It's been awhile for me as well, but I went back and checked this scene out at one point. He only attacks you if you straight up ask for a fight or if you goad him into one by purposely and maliciously antagonizing him. There is no other way to get into a fight with him. If all you did was be supportive, then there was no way for Kenny to attack you. The only supportive route available is the one that convinces him to stop the train.
I went back and checked, and Kenny really wasn't all that far away...
Anyway, as I said above: "As unrealistic as it may have been, no one in the game really treated Clementine as someone that needed her hand held. They treated her as an equal in many, many cases. So it only makes sense that this is how it went down during that scene. This wasn't a case of Season One where Clem needed to be protected. Realistically it probably should have been, but that just isn't how it was, and I suppose that has everything to do with her being the single protagonist of the story. I honestly didn't even question the fact that no one was going out of their way to try and find Clem, because again, that just wouldn't really be consistent with how the game was played."
I guess Rebecca may have been looking for her, but I'm just going to assume that no one else was. It's not as if they were miles apart from one another. They were more or less all in the same vicinity. It wouldn't have been hard to find her if anyone actually made that their priority instead of sticking to the plan of meeting up at their destination if separated. Everyone stuck to the plan, with the exception of Luke and Nick who ran after Sarah. One of those two easily could have stayed with Clem, but they didn't even give her a second thought.
Like I said, Kenny was then preoccupied with Sarita. He had her by the arm and was trying to lead her out of there as quick as possible.
Weird, I could have sworn Mike left him alone in that case. I went back and checked and he does in fact lift Kenny off of Arvo. At that point Kenny wasn't even punching him though. Anyway, this is really a total side point to what we were discussing. Yes, Kenny could have been helping Jane get a fire together instead of getting into a fight with Arvo, but this wasn't something that seriously put Clem in danger. He could have been a bit more caring... but unfortunately his anger distracted him from that.
I would say that he absolutely cared about her safety, even if he wasn't always there to walk her through every danger she encountered, and in doing so didn't protect her safety to the full extent of what he could have (with Clem being the protagonist, this just wouldn't work). He certainly did not want anything bad to happen to her, and if it would have, he would have been devastated. I personally don't think he brought upon any noteworthy danger towards her, with the exception of him wanting her to be involved in his truck escape plan.
Anyway though, I'm glad that we're in agreement that the initial statement was an exaggeration... which is what lead to this whole conversation lol. That's all I was really trying to say.
Kenny was so far away from Sarita that he didn't even notice she was in trouble until she was either covered in walkers or already bitten.
Yeah, I'll chalk this up to the characters' bizarre insistence of treating Clem like a fully-grown adult. Regardless, Kenny was still being irresponsible by leaving Clem to fend for herself. The other characters' negligence doesn't excuse him.
Sarita wasn't even dead in this scenario, but Kenny doesn't even seem to think twice about Clem here. Though I guess you could argue he was so concerned with getting Sarita out he didn't even notice he left Clem?
I'm not sure why you're downplaying Clem's situation here so much. Freezing to death was totally possible for her, the fact that Kenny didn't even seem to think of this is a big problem. If Clem's well-being was top priority for him, he would've been frantically trying to find firewood.
In any case, I think this discussion's pretty much over, since you've conceded that Kenny has put Clem at risk before, and I've conceded he's never nearly got her killed. I dunno, I'd still choose Christa :P
That doesn't seem very far away. He and Mike were busy fighting walkers of their own, which is why I would assume that they didn't notice Sarita in trouble.
I suppose I could see someone calling it irresponsible in a case of him not being involved in either Sarita's horrific death or escorting her out of the herd after being bitten, but considering his actual situation and the way Clementine is treated in the game, it doesn't seem very reasonable to label him as irresponsible. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on that, though.
I don't know that I would say that he didn't notice Clem, only that Sarita became his priority at that point, with her being bitten and all. Given what happened to her, wouldn't you think Kenny would want to get her out of there as soon as possible?
Freezing to death was certainly a possibility, but it's not something that would happen in a matter of a few minutes. It's not like she was just going to suddenly drop dead because the group took an extra minute or two to get a fire going. Just because anger clouded Kenny's judgement in that particular scene doesn't mean he didn't consider Clem a top priority.
Yeah, I definitely agree that he has risked her safety before in the fact that he didn't always go all out in making sure nothing could possibly happen to her, I just really don't think it's anything all that noteworthy, considering her role as the protagonist and the way that she was treated throughout the entire season by everyone. Telltale couldn't really have him (or anyone) play the ultimate protector role considering that would make for a pretty boring experience as the protagonist.
Anyway though, like you said, I think we know where we both fall on this matter at this point. Just thought I'd give my reasoning.
You're forgetting that from the time everything started going to shit (the moment Sarah saw her father killed in front of her) Clementine saw Sarita first. It took Clementine around ninety seconds to navigate her way around several walkers before finding Sarita bitten. After that, Clementine had enough time to either kill the walker or chop Sarita's arm off, all this taking another twenty seconds. We then get a moment in which Clem and Sarita get to react to the situation at hand.
All that was before Kenny even knew where Sarita was, the woman he so defensively claims he "loves." He was far enough that by the time he got to her, it was past too late.
I killed him to stop him from murdering someone. I wasn't going to just turn my head and let someone get stabbed.
You mean when Lee says something like if I have to beat your ass to make you stop, I'll do it? He didn't have to take the bait. He just got tired of attacking Lee with words.
Probably Christa, even though I like Kenny and I trust him with Clementine, Christa was more level headed.
I don't know if it's fair to blame him for this. It's hard enough getting separated from people in a large crowd and finding them in real life, and it's even harder with a bunch of ravenous corpses that will destroy you if you make one wrong move and attract their attention. All it takes is one or two of them walking in front of you at the right time to completely separate you from everyone else.
Not to mention that if you bump into one or try fighting them or pushing them off, you run the risk of attracting even more of them towards you, making it even more difficult to get back. All you can really do is sift through them, trying to find openings and hope for the best. It isn't something that'd be the same for everyone since it's pretty much luck based. One person could have it super easy to find someone they were split off from, having to do nothing more than move around a small cluster of walkers, while another person like Kenny could just keep getting walled off by more and more of them.
Kenny and Sarita started out together, side by side. After everything goes to hell, they have lines that explicitly reference the fact that they got split up. Sarita calls out for Kenny's help after Carlos is shot, and Kenny replies saying that he can't reach her.
In fact, no one that started out together managed to fully stay together now that I think of it. Luke and Nick started out together, Rebecca, Mike and Bonnie were all close together, Kenny and Sarita were close together, and Jane was pretty much going off by herself. By the end of it, you have Clem and Sarah together, Sarita and Bonnie close enough to try to defend the two of you, and everyone else is nowhere to be seen. Sarah runs off, leaving you to fend by yourself, eventually managing to run into Sarita again, who was once again split off from you. Speaking of which, despite Sarita and Bonnie being near by, Bonnie ends up being nowhere to be seen. Then after that in episode 4, Kenny and Mike find each other, then find both you and Sarita, then you get split off from them once again (which isn't specifically their fault. Clem starts getting boxed in, stumbles and nearly falls over, then regains her balance only to be lost in the sea of the dead once more). You fight off a couple of walkers, and then see Luke and Nick run off together going after Sarah, leaving you in the middle of the dead again. You continue fighting even more, then find Rebecca again, who claims she was with Luke (who she didn't even start out with in episode 3), while Jane, Bonnie and Sarah are nowhere to be found. Then you run back into Jane, leaving Bonnie MIA. Then you escape into the forest, not seeing any of the other characters again until you reach the meeting spot.
That whole situation was a clusterfuck where the entire group was cut off and split from one another, despite all of them starting side by side or in pairs. Not a single grouping that started from the loading docks made it all the way to the meeting spot without being split up at least once or twice in the chaos.
Kenny.
I barely remember Christa. And I didn't like her much either.
nonono i know that, im basically asking what if Jane was trying to stab HIM?
Christa would be better than anyone at this point, because that time-skip was dumb and helped undervalue all other guardians and time spent with Clementine, even as Lee
I would do the same thing. This wasn't about how much I hate Kenny, it was about stopping a murder.
If that was the case it wouldn't be up to clem because crista would kick kennys ass and mop the floor with him before clem even knew what was going on! Crista was one strong woman she was obviously attacked when she was at her weakest at the beginning, poor crista
Just Kenny haters most of the forum is
Christa
Christa. Kenny is not a very good person, and I wanted to get Clem the fuck away from him all throughout Season 2.
It wasn't always this way, but I can't deny it, I like the change.
Yo, Yoda!
What
And now we wait for when it inevitably switches back around (especially if they give Kenny any kind of death that could be considered respectful/heroic/etc)
I'm banking on this happening, just watch
Christa... Kenny Needs to be put out of his misery.
I really hope Clem doesn't show up in season 3. Especially if she went to Wellington. Though, considering the fact that TTG has made Kenny right in pretty much every conflict ever, I wouldn't be surprised. I will be sad once there's no more Gavin Hammon, though. He's a great voice actor, and a pretty awesome dude, too.
Depends on if Christa did the same stupid thing Jane did. Even then, it'd probably come down to who was about to stab who.
I could never see Christa doing something like that though, so if Kenny just attacked her for no reason I'd save her.
Well, this certainly reflects different than your original statement of: "Yeah, Kenny then proceeded to try to beat my Lee to death for trying to help his family. One of the many moments he infuriated me throughout the season."
I mean, if you're openly admitting that you baited the guy into a fight, I'm not sure what you have to complain about. If you went that route instead of actually being supportive and reasonable with him in a time of emotional fragility, then you can't honestly criticize the guy for giving it back to you and then act like all you were trying to do was help the guy. If that was actually the case, you wouldn't have baited him into a fight/ threatened him.
Of course I'm not forgetting this. The point still stands that Kenny physically was not all that far away. Who even knows what he was dealing with at the time of Sarita being bitten. I'm really failing to see why this is a big deal anyway. People were spread out, it is what it is. Arguing over the extent of which they were spread out is really pointless.
Christa......I don't think it would ever come down to Kenny and Christa fighting one another, but that Clem could only save one or the other
like I've said in other posts...it should've been Christa at ski lodge and the choice at the end of S2 woulda been harder if we had to choose b/t Christa or Jane.
Christa was a mother once herself...she would never put a baby, let alone her own baby in danger, in the freezing cold, just to teach Clementine a lesson...remember she kinda lectured Lee about taking Clem into the abandoned building in S1....
lel bai keny
I'd save Christa for sure.
Christa I guess, I dislike both of them but Christa is a better guardian.
I have done multiple playthroughs. In one, I talked Kenny down. In another, I fought with him. In both, Kenny was being extremely hostile. The "beat to death" comment was clearly an exaggeration but my point was that Kenny, no matter how you treat him, gives you grief back. You must have seen this. That's what frustrated me.
Alone ending i'd say xD