Ideally I would have loved to play Season 2 as Lee, but his death was necessary for the emotional impact and masterful storytelling of Season 1 (which still beats Season 2).
Now to be honest, I didn't hate playing as Clementine in Season 2, in fact I thought Telltale was really taking a bold step with a child protagonist, playing as the girl we cared for and protected in Season 1, while the second game wasn't as good as the first, it was still an excellent game overall, and unlike others I didn't have any real trouble empathizing with Clem.
My only real complaint was the lack of consistency in her strength and the fact that she literally had to carry the rest of her group with her, making them all look rather incompetent. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of Clem being a Zombie Survivor prodigy but the amount of power and responsibility given to Clem, an 11 year old girl, kind of sucked the realism out of it; a cynical realism that was prevalent in the superior Season 1.
I'm still glad to have played as Clem, with Lee gone she was all I had left of him and their journey together in Season 1, and I didn't want to leave the spirit of that story behind. So yes, I would have absolutely HATED Season 2 if Clem wasn't the main character, because I wanted to continue Lee's legacy through her.
I just wish the game would remember that Clem was still a child, not some kind of little walker slaying terminator, really on many occasions it felt like Clem was the adult and the group were acting like children.
To play as a child protagonist was not the wrong step to take, I admire Telltale for doing things differently, its not often you get to play as a young child in a zombie apocalypse. I love Clem and to honour Lee's memory I always will, but TT tampered around with her character in Season 2 that tainted her, they tried to give us a child protagonist but as good as they are in storytelling, in this regard Telltale Games failed.
They couldn't give us a proper, believable child protagonist, with a clear set of defined imitations, Clem essentially became a hardened adult survivor in a child's body, and this was the wrong path to take. Clem came dangerously close towards becoming another Carl (I hate that kid).
However, I do still want for Clem to return in Season 3 as the main playable character, because now she'll be older (probably an adolescent) and so her adult level survivor skills and general competence can become more consistent and believable. I haven't given up on Clem and still think Telltale can learn from its past mistakes they made with the character in Season 2, and improve her for Season 3.
Wow, interesting The first other game that comes to my mind is Beyond two Souls, I really liked playing that game from a friend, I wish I owned it. Oh, there was also Gravity Rush.
I think it depends on the genre. In adventure games female protagonists are rather common these days. And they have been ever since King's Q… moreuest IV: The Perils of Rosella (1988). Which turned out to be a hit among the gamers, even though developer had feared that gamers might not like the idea of female protagonist.
Personally my favorite female protagonists are April Ryan and Zoë Castillo from The Longest Journey/Dreamfall -series. In the serie's latest (episodic) entry Dreamfall Chapters there's a new playable female character. Her name is Saga and she is younger than Clementine. Interestingly there is one playable male character in the series, but he is the least interesting of them (and this is my opinion as a man).
The fact that a child was making such crucial decisions to the group was unrealistic and it felt like i was molding an already made character into something else the reason lee worked so well is cause he was a cleen slate we knew very little about his past so we could mold to ur liking playing as clementine was like playing as carver after he was such a douche and then making good guy decisons or playing as hitler and making him all about world peace
You should do some research and you will find plenty of games with female protagonists. There are even some games which have feminist perspective to things (but for some reason in many gaming forums conversation about those games goes ugly really fast).
Currently I'm keeping my eye on Life is Strange. I haven't bought it yet, but I might do that at some point (I'm still waiting for more reviews). It's an episodic game about a girl who can rewind time. Based on what I have read, it's gameplay has a lot of similarities with Telltale's games. So, it might be worth checking out.
Wow, interesting The first other game that comes to my mind is Beyond two Souls, I really liked playing that game from a friend, I wish I owned it. Oh, there was also Gravity Rush.
The fact that a child was making such crucial decisions to the group was unrealistic and it felt like i was molding an already made charact… moreer into something else the reason lee worked so well is cause he was a cleen slate we knew very little about his past so we could mold to ur liking playing as clementine was like playing as carver after he was such a douche and then making good guy decisons or playing as hitler and making him all about world peace
You should do some research and you will find plenty of games with female protagonists. There are even some games which have feminist perspe… morective to things (but for some reason in many gaming forums conversation about those games goes ugly really fast).
Currently I'm keeping my eye on Life is Strange. I haven't bought it yet, but I might do that at some point (I'm still waiting for more reviews). It's an episodic game about a girl who can rewind time. Based on what I have read, it's gameplay has a lot of similarities with Telltale's games. So, it might be worth checking out.
hahahaha i like that social services crack, it was funny
But I agree, there's a difference between an adult taking risks for adults, and a small kid taking the same dangerous risks for adults.
Yes but Lee is an adult and capable of 'knocking a few heads together' as Kenny puts it. If you're honestly asking me to view an 11-year old… more kid and a 30 something adult as equals in the sense that both should to be risking their lives for their group, to such extremes they might die for the things the members of that group ask of them...then I'm calling social services on you o_o Jesus man!
Sorry but I'm serious, much as I love the bridge stuff, I think it was dangerous of Luke only taking Clem with him; I can't buy into Carlos letting a little kid work a wind turbine unattended; the whole sneaking around Carvers was a cool idea, but letting Clem do most of it and by herself was also risky because she could've gotten killed if she was caught; I also can't buy into Jane letting Clem drive a truck when she could've easily done it herself or the whole business of letting Clem kick a door down, and I can't buy into the fact Kenny would be oka… [view original content]
Haha when the zombies really come, you will lead the group with your badass planning skills. "the foldy bed goes here, this goes here, get the rope and do this, and then you're done in ten, fifteen minutes."
~TeamLilac!!~
The Walkie Talkie one worked, but the second one with setting off the PA, Bonnie couldn't do it? Maybe leave the shutter down but leave it u… morenlocked so it just appears locked, and then set the thing off and help the group escape after she'd gotten her butt out of there? How is letting Clem sneak into Carver's office a good idea? ;_; Bonnie's got a better chance of pulling it off.
In fact why didn't they just build something from all those bunks, table and equipment lying around to climb over the fence? maybe rest the flimsy mattress on Rebecca's foldy bed over the barb wire so they don't catch themselves on it, then tie the rope to the ladder to secure it better [since they'd have something to stand up on by that point] and use it do descend over the other side of the fence. They could get themselves out of there in ten, fifteen minutes, like the ten fifteen minutes nobody noticed little Clem gone or overheard the group discussing escape plans x_x
Haha when the zombies really come, you will lead the group with your badass planning skills. "the foldy bed goes here, this goes here, get the rope and do this, and then you're done in ten, fifteen minutes."
~TeamLilac!!~
And that's why killing Lee off at the end of Season 1 was such a huge mistake.
Or if nothing else, they should've introduced a new adult PC character during the 400 days dlc.
Adult members of her group were also surprised, because they thought that it was it was too difficult for any of them. And when something is… more too difficult for the adults then it's a suitable task for a little girl. Personally I thought that Clem's group is full of idiots after that scene.
With all due respect, before this line of thought gets out of hand and possibly turns into that of making insinuations that could possibly be interpreted as slanderous, why not allow Kennyftw to answer the first question that was put to him?
And I'm not just speaking to you Flog61, I'm also speaking to Rousseau as well.
And I'm just merely speaking up, in effort to help maintain a level of peace, civility, and fairness.
Personally, when I played as Lee; I felt more connected to the story, as like me he's a man.
So seeing it from a fellow man's perspective felt more natural.
How is Clementine a "made" character? In S1 she was an 8/9 years old who behaves like most of them, first crying for his parents, then latching to the first protective figure she meets and mostly doing as he says, with a bit of naive trust toward another stranger thrown in. Nothing unusual or particularly defining.
Then almost two years pass, during which we don't know too much about what happened. That is a lot when it is 20% of your entire life, and at that age, it doesn't take too much to change.
In my opinion you can mold her in S2 as much as you could Lee in S1.
Myself, I decided to play her as being very strongly influenced by Lee's outlook, and as a sort of continuation of him.
But you could just as easily play her as someone who saw Lee's end as a fail, and choose to behave very differently; or who just decides to forget about him and forge her own outlook from scratch; or anything in between.
The fact that a child was making such crucial decisions to the group was unrealistic and it felt like i was molding an already made charact… moreer into something else the reason lee worked so well is cause he was a cleen slate we knew very little about his past so we could mold to ur liking playing as clementine was like playing as carver after he was such a douche and then making good guy decisons or playing as hitler and making him all about world peace
I actually liked the playable characters of 400 Days and I thought that they have a lot of potential, which unfortunately wasn't used in Season 2. I think that any of them (except Bonnie who was my least favorite) would have worked well as a new protagonist.
And that's why killing Lee off at the end of Season 1 was such a huge mistake.
Or if nothing else, they should've introduced a new adult PC character during the 400 days dlc.
It may not have been perfect, but I thought playing as Clementine was great and very rewarding. Never have I been more emotionally invested in a fictional character.
The only time I felt that Clementine truly was realistic and relatable was All That Remains. The choices in that were exactly what the rest of the game should have been, then everything went downhill.
Clem turning off that damn wind turbine, Clem practically doing everything to escape Howe's, that damn door, breaking the things off the damn deck so stupid.
I was once an 11 year old, but it's really hard to relate to her on any level, with the exception of a bunch of All That Remains, especially the first bit. With Lee I felt the opposite, and almost always sympathized with him.
Looking back now, I was not as invested in the story when playing as Clementine when compared to playing as Lee.
The main problem for me … morewas taking control of a pre-established character and making choices from my (and Lee's) opinions, as opposed to Clementine herself. The more I played the more I felt that Season 2 Clementine didn't feel the same as the Clementine from Season 1, mainly due to the drastic characterisation shift made off-screen and because of it she can be moulded into whoever we desire, which ends up making Season 2 Clementine appear even more of a shadow of her former self.
The other problem was her lack of a personal story arc, she's purely there as a protagonist and nothing else. She could easily be replaced by Becca and the story wouldn't have been all that different.
Lee was a good protagonist because of how he was introduced, a soon-to-be prisoner for murdering a senator, who ends up being caught in a middle of… [view original content]
no real complaint because Telltale listened to the majority that wanted to play as clem from the get go of season 2 being announced,but i liked protecting clem and duck and everyone else,with clem in season 2 im just trying to protect a few people.
Hm... you're right but as Clementine you still need to protect yourself so in other word you as player still have this feeling that you need to keep her safe. Even if you're playing as her.
no real complaint because Telltale listened to the majority that wanted to play as clem from the get go of season 2 being announced,but i liked protecting clem and duck and everyone else,with clem in season 2 im just trying to protect a few people.
No mather what a 8/9 year old has personality and you are changing that in s2 thats my opinion from the age of 5 onwards you start developing a personaity of course it may change alot during puberty but clementine hasnt hit puberty yet
How is Clementine a "made" character? In S1 she was an 8/9 years old who behaves like most of them, first crying for his parents, then latch… moreing to the first protective figure she meets and mostly doing as he says, with a bit of naive trust toward another stranger thrown in. Nothing unusual or particularly defining.
Then almost two years pass, during which we don't know too much about what happened. That is a lot when it is 20% of your entire life, and at that age, it doesn't take too much to change.
In my opinion you can mold her in S2 as much as you could Lee in S1.
Myself, I decided to play her as being very strongly influenced by Lee's outlook, and as a sort of continuation of him.
But you could just as easily play her as someone who saw Lee's end as a fail, and choose to behave very differently; or who just decides to forget about him and forge her own outlook from scratch; or anything in between.
You know how it makes sense for Lee to do everything, right? He's practically leader of the group. But Clementine gets the same treatment, but even more than Lee did it seems like.
I thought S2 was about relying on others, not others relying on you.
Of course she had some personality at 8. Lee also likely had a lot of personality himself at 35+
We just don't know much about it, for both. What, exactly, are the defining, immutable traits of Clem that you see in Season 1 and subvert later? I'm curious, because all I see is a frightened girl who trusts the one who is protecting her, and longs for her missing parents. Hardly unique.
No mather what a 8/9 year old has personality and you are changing that in s2 thats my opinion from the age of 5 onwards you start developing a personaity of course it may change alot during puberty but clementine hasnt hit puberty yet
I always get into arguments with people when i mention this so im just gonna bale out since not alot of people share my vision .
All jokes aside (well half of that was true ) i just felt like taking over clementine we didnt have a clean slate to start o we already have a foudation where as lee we have next to nothing to go on and it gave us more reedom i felt but thats as far as i go with this discussion because ive already made my opinion pretty clear i think so i have nothing furder to add
Of course she had some personality at 8. Lee also likely had a lot of personality himself at 35+
We just don't know much about it, for bo… moreth. What, exactly, are the defining, immutable traits of Clem that you see in Season 1 and subvert later? I'm curious, because all I see is a frightened girl who trusts the one who is protecting her, and longs for her missing parents. Hardly unique.
Fair enough, although I wasn't looking to get into an argument here...it's just that I find it interesting to see a story through someone else's eyes...so I was wondering about what kind of foundation you saw in S1's Clementine. Just curiosity.
I always get into arguments with people when i mention this so im just gonna bale out since not alot of people share my vision .
All jokes … moreaside (well half of that was true ) i just felt like taking over clementine we didnt have a clean slate to start o we already have a foudation where as lee we have next to nothing to go on and it gave us more reedom i felt but thats as far as i go with this discussion because ive already made my opinion pretty clear i think so i have nothing furder to add
We could 100% get ourselves out of any situations, while Clem's group sits around for an episode trying figure out how a door works.
Our group would be unstoppable!
Honestly, I'm surprised that Clementine would know how to fix a wind turbine.
And I'm surprised that Telltale had the adult characters looking to her to fix it.
Comments
Ideally I would have loved to play Season 2 as Lee, but his death was necessary for the emotional impact and masterful storytelling of Season 1 (which still beats Season 2).
Now to be honest, I didn't hate playing as Clementine in Season 2, in fact I thought Telltale was really taking a bold step with a child protagonist, playing as the girl we cared for and protected in Season 1, while the second game wasn't as good as the first, it was still an excellent game overall, and unlike others I didn't have any real trouble empathizing with Clem.
My only real complaint was the lack of consistency in her strength and the fact that she literally had to carry the rest of her group with her, making them all look rather incompetent. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of Clem being a Zombie Survivor prodigy but the amount of power and responsibility given to Clem, an 11 year old girl, kind of sucked the realism out of it; a cynical realism that was prevalent in the superior Season 1.
I'm still glad to have played as Clem, with Lee gone she was all I had left of him and their journey together in Season 1, and I didn't want to leave the spirit of that story behind. So yes, I would have absolutely HATED Season 2 if Clem wasn't the main character, because I wanted to continue Lee's legacy through her.
I just wish the game would remember that Clem was still a child, not some kind of little walker slaying terminator, really on many occasions it felt like Clem was the adult and the group were acting like children.
To play as a child protagonist was not the wrong step to take, I admire Telltale for doing things differently, its not often you get to play as a young child in a zombie apocalypse. I love Clem and to honour Lee's memory I always will, but TT tampered around with her character in Season 2 that tainted her, they tried to give us a child protagonist but as good as they are in storytelling, in this regard Telltale Games failed.
They couldn't give us a proper, believable child protagonist, with a clear set of defined imitations, Clem essentially became a hardened adult survivor in a child's body, and this was the wrong path to take. Clem came dangerously close towards becoming another Carl (I hate that kid).
However, I do still want for Clem to return in Season 3 as the main playable character, because now she'll be older (probably an adolescent) and so her adult level survivor skills and general competence can become more consistent and believable. I haven't given up on Clem and still think Telltale can learn from its past mistakes they made with the character in Season 2, and improve her for Season 3.
Wow, interesting
The first other game that comes to my mind is Beyond two Souls, I really liked playing that game from a friend, I wish I owned it. Oh, there was also Gravity Rush. 
The fact that a child was making such crucial decisions to the group was unrealistic and it felt like i was molding an already made character into something else the reason lee worked so well is cause he was a cleen slate we knew very little about his past so we could mold to ur liking playing as clementine was like playing as carver after he was such a douche and then making good guy decisons or playing as hitler and making him all about world peace
You should do some research and you will find plenty of games with female protagonists. There are even some games which have feminist perspective to things (but for some reason in many gaming forums conversation about those games goes ugly really fast).
Currently I'm keeping my eye on Life is Strange. I haven't bought it yet, but I might do that at some point (I'm still waiting for more reviews). It's an episodic game about a girl who can rewind time. Based on what I have read, it's gameplay has a lot of similarities with Telltale's games. So, it might be worth checking out.
making crucial decisions? like what?
Yeah, I think I will
OOOOOOHH that sounds amazing, what systems is it for?? 
hahahaha, now I wonder... xD
hahahaha i like that social services crack, it was funny
But I agree, there's a difference between an adult taking risks for adults, and a small kid taking the same dangerous risks for adults.
Haha when the zombies really come, you will lead the group with your badass planning skills. "the foldy bed goes here, this goes here, get the rope and do this, and then you're done in ten, fifteen minutes."
~TeamLilac!!~
:high-fives Clementine-300:
Hellz yeahhh samesies!!! ^.^
:high fives back: But seriously, you two must find me when this happens, we'll be the bestest group evahhhh!!
PC, PS3, PS4, Xbox One and Xbox 360.
And that's why killing Lee off at the end of Season 1 was such a huge mistake.
Or if nothing else, they should've introduced a new adult PC character during the 400 days dlc.
With all due respect, before this line of thought gets out of hand and possibly turns into that of making insinuations that could possibly be interpreted as slanderous, why not allow Kennyftw to answer the first question that was put to him?
And I'm not just speaking to you Flog61, I'm also speaking to Rousseau as well.
And I'm just merely speaking up, in effort to help maintain a level of peace, civility, and fairness.
If he were white, would it have made the story feel more natural? Seeing the story from a 'fellow white person's perspective'?
How is Clementine a "made" character? In S1 she was an 8/9 years old who behaves like most of them, first crying for his parents, then latching to the first protective figure she meets and mostly doing as he says, with a bit of naive trust toward another stranger thrown in. Nothing unusual or particularly defining.
Then almost two years pass, during which we don't know too much about what happened. That is a lot when it is 20% of your entire life, and at that age, it doesn't take too much to change.
In my opinion you can mold her in S2 as much as you could Lee in S1.
Myself, I decided to play her as being very strongly influenced by Lee's outlook, and as a sort of continuation of him.
But you could just as easily play her as someone who saw Lee's end as a fail, and choose to behave very differently; or who just decides to forget about him and forge her own outlook from scratch; or anything in between.
None. I enjoyed playing Clementine more.
I´m tired of playing adult males. And I´m one.
Didnt like playing as a child, they had to make her either over powered or have no say in the group. Yet they somehow did both
I actually liked the playable characters of 400 Days and I thought that they have a lot of potential, which unfortunately wasn't used in Season 2. I think that any of them (except Bonnie who was my least favorite) would have worked well as a new protagonist.
Yes! Thank you!
It may not have been perfect, but I thought playing as Clementine was great and very rewarding. Never have I been more emotionally invested in a fictional character.
The only time I felt that Clementine truly was realistic and relatable was All That Remains. The choices in that were exactly what the rest of the game should have been, then everything went downhill.
Clem turning off that damn wind turbine, Clem practically doing everything to escape Howe's, that damn door, breaking the things off the damn deck so stupid.
I was once an 11 year old, but it's really hard to relate to her on any level, with the exception of a bunch of All That Remains, especially the first bit. With Lee I felt the opposite, and almost always sympathized with him.
We could 100% get ourselves out of any situations, while Clem's group sits around for an episode trying figure out how a door works.
Our group would be unstoppable!
Clementine did have a bit of a personal story arc. Not much of one, but it's still there. But it's only in the second episode.
no real complaint because Telltale listened to the majority that wanted to play as clem from the get go of season 2 being announced,but i liked protecting clem and duck and everyone else,with clem in season 2 im just trying to protect a few people.
Humans? Nah, I want to be this tiny little dwarf with a big beard and even bigger axe.
Hm... you're right but as Clementine you still need to protect yourself so in other word you as player still have this feeling that you need to keep her safe. Even if you're playing as her.
No mather what a 8/9 year old has personality and you are changing that in s2 thats my opinion from the age of 5 onwards you start developing a personaity of course it may change alot during puberty but clementine hasnt hit puberty yet
Like VERY strongly influencing if nick will live or die i ffelt was unrealistic
You know how it makes sense for Lee to do everything, right? He's practically leader of the group. But Clementine gets the same treatment, but even more than Lee did it seems like.
I thought S2 was about relying on others, not others relying on you.
Of course she had some personality at 8. Lee also likely had a lot of personality himself at 35+
We just don't know much about it, for both. What, exactly, are the defining, immutable traits of Clem that you see in Season 1 and subvert later? I'm curious, because all I see is a frightened girl who trusts the one who is protecting her, and longs for her missing parents. Hardly unique.
I always get into arguments with people when i mention this so im just gonna bale out since not alot of people share my vision
.
All jokes aside (well half of that was true ) i just felt like taking over clementine we didnt have a clean slate to start o we already have a foudation where as lee we have next to nothing to go on and it gave us more reedom i felt but thats as far as i go with this discussion because ive already made my opinion pretty clear i think so i have nothing furder to add
Fair enough, although I wasn't looking to get into an argument here...it's just that I find it interesting to see a story through someone else's eyes...so I was wondering about what kind of foundation you saw in S1's Clementine. Just curiosity.
but not vita
Well i could always get it for pc if I really like it. 
Thanks buddy!
hahaha well you'll find me in sunny California where hopefully the outbreak take a long time to reach so I shall prepare
It's possible that her dad showed her. He was an engineer after all.