Who is more intelligent Lee or Carver?
Both can be pragmatic and smart. Even though Carver built a stronghold and civilization it was still taken down by an average 11 year old in a few days so what does that tell you?
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I would say Lee. He was a university professor, and we don't know about Carver's past occupation. So I'd say, Lee.
Lee is a history professor, so probably him.
Interesting. Nonetheless Lee still stands but it depends on what type of intelligence. In some ways Carver is more intelligent than Lee.
I think it said on the wiki Carver was an over the hill engineer
Depends what you consider overall Intelligence as....
I feel like Lee would know more education based knowledge since he was a Professor but Carver would have more skill knowledge since some places have said he was a construction worker or an Engineer, something like that so depends on the type of intelligence.
I'd say Carver overall
Lee is probably more knowledgeable overall, and most likely has more of a formal education than Carver does, but that's about the extent of it
Beyond that, I think Carver is more tactically, emotionally, and socially intelligent. Carver also comes across as an incredibly perceptive individual who can pick up on the subtleties and nuances of a person. And can figure out how to exploit them.
Carver's defeat still stems back to the rushed nature of episode 3. They condensed the Carver arc, and the escape from Howe's, into 90 minutes. There is absolutely no way that they could have written Carver out of the story by the end of that episode without it looking stupid in some way. They had to cut corners to finish that story-line by the end of the episode, and that's on top of having to find a way to involve the player in the defeat of the primary antagonist. And that is itself is also compounded by the fact that the player is playing as an 11 year old girl.
I guess you can say it's book-smarts vs street-smarts, or even based on profession
I mean, we could say that in terms of boats, Kenny is smarter than both of them
Lee, in terms of book smarts, is definitely the smarter, but Carver ran his group for over 2 years, so in terms of survival and overall leadership, I'd say him.
Probably Carver, but that doesn't mean he's a good person in any way
Not sure what to say about Lee since he’s the playable character, but Carver was super dumb, even in A House Divided. For some reason he thought that it would be a brilliant idea to scout out a group full of people who hated him, including a woman he raped, and would’ve no doubt tried to kill him if given the chance, completely on his own with no back up at all. Seriously, what would Carver had done if he'd shown up at the cabin and the cabin group was still there? Why was he in the woods all alone?
And why the hell did he send Bonnie to scout out the ski lodge? What was the point? What did that accomplish? If anyone from the cabin group had seen her, they would’ve recognized her and immediately realized Carver was coming for them. It was pure chance Carver’s plan didn’t blow up in his face, considering how easily Walter and Clem snuck up on Bonnie.
And let’s not even get into In Harm’s Way Carver
“Hey Clementine, I know I held you hostage at gunpoint, physically abused children multiple times, threw someone off a building over some berries, and shot two of your friends in the face and all… but I bet you still really wanna be my right-hand girl! Right? Right!?”
Apparently Carver used to be an engineer or something... So he's smart in that way? I guess?
Though i don't dissagree with any of your points, the game implies Rebecca and Carver did it mutually
I'd think Lee is more intelligent, because I bet he wouldn't question the correct meaning behind the word overzealous like Carver did >.>
Lee is the smart one, Because he made smart moves like: getting out of that torture room in EP 2. getting those pills EP 1. he even knew what to do when those two walkers were trying to attack him in EP3 on the werehouse. and remember that badass time when Lee trying to get out of that school? with a shotgun and meat cleaver o-o. ep5 he even saved himself when he was almost gonna fall and did you see how did he jump???? holy shit,
Oh yeah, Carver is intelligent because he says killing people or letting people die is for the best of surviving this world. Fuck. Him.
How does being able to jump far make him smart?
well....lets forget about the jumping part.
Carver. He knows how surviving is SUPPOSED to be done.
If that was true, then why is he dead now?
Oh yeah, by leaving or killing people to care about yourself. Is that it?
imo Lee. I would say that both men are very smart, just their emotions blinded them all the way to their downfall. Lee desperately searching for Clementine and letting his guard down. And Carver angry/frustrated at Rebecca for wanting to leave a community he built for his apparent love child.
Plot
You're point kinda backfires on itself. Carver survived and outlived Lee by much longer.
He sent Bonnie for many reasons
1st: To check how big the group is so he could outnumber them and attack them smartly if they are really big
2nd: To check if the group he wanted is there
Need I say more???
In terms of books? Lee, since he was a Professor
In terms of survival? Carver, because Lee is a player dependent survivor which means his survival skills could be shit or could be great.
Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that Carver is no longer a survivor now.
Besides, Lee only died due to pure bad luck when lowering his guard at the worst possible moment. Had he not gotten bitten, he would have continued to survive for another day. Carver died because of his own ideals and antagonistic nature that ended up bringing his own downfall, even if it did occur long after Lee's death. Had he took Lee's path, no one in our group would have had any reason to want him dead.
Assuming he even was alone. It's not out of the realm of possibility that he had his people hang back just out of sight while he checked the cabin. First sign of trouble, he could easily flag them down/signal them over, provided they didn't see the commotion themselves
Perhaps he or his people saw Clementine running back to the cabin and decided to follow her back, even
To be fair, there's no one he could have sent to scout the lodge without them being recognized. They obviously know Bonnie, they also know Troy, and they most likely know who Johnny is if he was trusted enough by Carver to be brought along. And even then, it's not like he was sending them in to knock on the front door and make themselves known. They only needed a scout to go up, look through a window (like Bonnie was doing), confirm that the cabin group were there, and report back. Bonnie only got caught because we just randomly decided to go outside for something. You can't really pin that one on anyone in particular, because people randomly coming across you is a possibility in just about any scenario that involves recon/scouting
It's also suggested that Bonnie made the call herself, based on some dialogue from her in episode 3: "I thought if I was the one who found everyone, I could control it"
If he'd had his people with him at the time, you'd think he would've tried to capture the cabin group right then and there when they had the element of surprise (and machine guns), rather than stalking them for nearly a week and trying to capture them after they learned Carver was closing in on them...
But was there any reason to scout ahead? Why couldn't Carver's whole gang just go up together immediately? I guess you could argue Carver didn't want to waste time climbing a mountain unless he was absolutely sure the cabin group was there, but it was an extremely safe bet that the lodge was the only place the cabin group could've gone to, seeing as it was the only shelter available for miles. I would've thought the time spent hiking would've been more than worth avoiding the risk of alerting the cabin group of their presence.
There is actually a piece of dialogue from Carlos where he says "He wasn't expecting to find us... Clementine must have surprised him" which implies that Carver wasn't expecting to find them out there in the first place
Maybe I'm just theorizing way too hard here, but here's out I think things could have panned out: Carver is still searching for the cabin group. He makes it out into the woods, but finds nothing other than assorted scavengers and bandits (the bloodbath at the stream). Carver doesn't expect to find the cabin group in the general area (which does make some sense, given they're in the middle of the woods by this point), but has his people split into a scouting party to scope out the surrounding area anyways. Carver finds the cabin in the distance, and cases it, waiting to see if there's anyone nearby, or if there's any familiar faces there. Carver sees no signs of life, and goes up to the cabin only to find Clementine there. Carver decides to keep looking since he has the opportunity, finds evidence of the cabin group, leaves to regroup with the rest of his people when they return to an agreed upon meeting spot.
By the time he gets his people back together, the cabin group is already gone, which leads into the cat and mouse game. Carver predicts that the group would try to head north towards the mountains (as his dialogue in the cabin implies that he's aware that people are heading north), which allows him to keep in their general direction, nearly managing to catch up to them in the process (explaining Clem seeing their lights in the distance mere hours after they make it up the mountain). Then he comes across the lodge, decides to send someone up to make sure that the cabin group is definitely there and that it isn't a trap, then finally prepares a plan to capture them.
Get an idea of the basic lay-out of the lodge, determine exactly how many people are there, and make sure that it isn't just a trap
Not only is there a chance of the cabin group not being there/already moved past it, there's also the chance that whoever else is in that lodge may also be hostile/on the cabin group's side, and since the cabin group obviously knows he's on their scent by this point, there's also a chance they're trying to ambush him. It'd be in their best interest to know exactly what they're going into, wouldn't it? And if the cabin/lodge group was indeed anticipating his approach, the worst case scenario is that their scout gets killed. But hey, one person is better than all of them at once, right?
Besides, I doubt they set up at the very base of the mountain and sent someone all the way up. There's thick brush all around the mountain, they'd have no problems sneaking up. They probably went up about half way and sent someone to check the place. Hell, for all we know, maybe they're the ones that messed with the transformer in order to distract some of the group away from the lodge.
Intellect on survival? Gotta pick Lee. He stays neutral (or whatever side you're on) and can actually run a group. If Larry was killed off earlier, I think Lee would have been a great leader back at the Motor Inn. Carver's method is a bit brutal but I wonder how his group still functions....
That's actually a really good theory of what Carver might've been doing. But I still question the wisdom of splitting everyone up and wandering around the woods completely alone, especially after he encountered a bunch of dangerous bandits in those very woods not long ago.
And ok, you got me there. I think my exasperation for In Harm's Way Carver's tremendous stupidity was so powerful that it started bleeding into my thoughts on A House Divided Carver, even though the two are basically completely different characters.
Though I still facepalmed at how willy-nilly Carver was acting during the hostage situation. He knows at least half the cabin group is still free and very likely to retaliate, and doesn't even think to hide behind a hostage or at least stand somewhere he couldn't be openly fired at until Jonnny got shot in the face.
Your comments are always a good read whether I agree with them or not. TT should hire you to explain all their plotholes and inconsistencies.
I'm inclined to think that these plot holes and inconsistencies are caused by the lack of communication and creative differences from the writers.
Which is pretty amateur
Carver died to unbelievable plot.
I would still like to think that Carver was the better survivor and leader. Lee's group (Motor Inn group) was wide open and fell apart in less than 6 months. Carver and his group thrived and survived for well over 2 years. Carver kept them in fear and they never though twice about disobeying him
Carver was only the better survivor and leader because he controlled those who were weak willed enough to work for him and didn't have the spine to defect. As soon as one group and one of his former henchmen had the spine to fight back Carver was quickly executed for his tyranny, and it had only took a day or two for the plan to work.
Sure he survived for an impressive 2 years, but he was clearly living on borrowed time and it only a matter of time before his victims turned the tabled and killed him. Those two years of surviving, and it turned out to be meaningless thanks to his death and having his community being overrun by walkers in the end.
I don't imagine they're scouting out super far from one another. They'd just split up to search the immediate area, not any more than half a mile or so, radio in and regroup within a few hours if they see anything suspicious. Sure, it may not be the safest idea, but it's the quickest and most efficient way to map out their immediate surroundings.
He was fairly obscured when he was torturing Carlos. He was hidden just enough out of the view of the windows, or at least enough so that it would be a difficult shot to take.
And another thing to think about is Carver's relationship to these people. I think he knows them well enough to know their limits or how to exploit weaknesses. For example, he punches Carlos in the face, which draws Sarah out of the lodge, giving away their (admittedly obvious) position.
Sure, the cabin group would likely retaliate if they had a good opening, but I imagine there's still limits for them, limits that he knows he can push against. The cabin group are shown to be pretty close to one another, which would already make them hesitant to risk taking shots at Carver and his people. Alvin mentions "If we start shooting, people are gonna die on both sides!" which shows that he's already hesitant to try and fight back when some of his group is at stake. Then you have to consider the people he's specifically targeting: since Rebecca is pregnant, threatening Carlos is a rather smart move to coax them out. Would they really be willing to risk the doctor just for a potential shot at him? All things considered, Kenny probably surprised him, simply because he didn't expect anyone to be that reckless about the situation.
Does it really matter how you do it? He was took hold of a fortress and held fort there for way long than the Motor Inn group could have dreamed of. I know some people are biased because of Lee and I don't really blame them but the facts seem to be on Carver's side
It kinda does matter, since his methods is what destroyed everything he worked for in the end. His story arc showed that tyranny, though as effective it may seem on the outside, was highly immoral and would have never worked in the long run. It was a miracle that the people had put up with him for two years, when one group managed to have him assassinated in a manner of days.
Then again, we don't know how long he had became a tyrrincal dictatorship thanks to a lack of backstory in his community. For all we know the place was peaceful and stable until Carver's descent into madness.
Mah boi Carver.
I could say the same about Lee.