I do hate ONE writer. Being J.T. Petty who was the writer of episode 4. Why did he give his story to TTG? He was not even working with them and why would TTG just accept it? TTG is a complete asshole.
Why did Jane decide to fuck Luke during the middle of a crisis? "Oh yeah, its the middle of a zombie apocalypse. People are dying and there's walkers everywhere. Oh well, who gives a shit? Let's fuck!" Stupid bitch she was. Excuse me for my profanity lol
It was very implicit that it was a mutual affair that Rebecca had with Carver. Right before Kenny bashes his face in Carver rants about how Rebecca liked every minute of her nights with him. And at least Luke and Bonnie knew about the affair and if Carver had raped Rebecca, I don't think they'd have a problem simply killing Carver. And Rebecca didn't really give off the vibe that Carver raped her, just that she regretted the affair (probably b/c Carver became so domineering and controlling, especially once Rebecca's baby bump started showing)
Carver almost injured and paralyzed the others such as almost finishing off Kenny and hurting Luke in the ribs and gave Alvin a strong beat down. and I think sarah did a small mistake letting her father die because of panicking and almost made clementine stuck with her inside that house. And Jane did almost killed the whole group by making love with Luke and leaving the deck un-ready. Arvo did cause a little damage to the group by letting mike getting hurt on the arm and making Luke hurt, even tho viltal did it, if arvo didn't bring his group and started attacking, it wouldn't happen.
Problem with Cabin group was that they werent ready for apocalypse. Only reasonable people there were Pete and Luke and others wouldnt survive without them.
I always wanted the option to just offer Rebecca up to Carver in exchange for everyone else...Carver really only wanted Rebecca and the baby. taking the rest of the gang back was due to George getting slaughtered in the process of their escape.
Hold your horses man. EVERYONE IS THE REASON. It's Clem's fault, it's Carlos' fault, it's Walter's fault, it's Jane's fault, it's Bonnie's f… moreault. If anything, Walter is the fucking reason they are dead because he let a stranger go away with food back to his group informing Carver to capture them.
The (recently updated) Forum Guideline 1.1 asks users to respect not just other users/volunteer Moderators, but Telltale Staff as well. Even though J.T. Petty isn't a Telltale staff member, I'm going to ask that you still not insult him anyways as he did work on a part of the game.
1.1 R-E-S-P-E-C-T! We're all here to have fun, so be cool to each other. Always behave respectfully towards other community members, moderators and Telltale team members. Insults, hate speech, platform wars… leave it out. Constructive criticism of another user's opinions or actions is OK, but refrain from insulting users/volunteer moderators/Telltale staff members themselves - whether directly or in passing. If you feel especially slighted by another forum member, use the "Flag" button to report their comments to moderators instead of shooting back!
I do hate ONE writer. Being J.T. Petty who was the writer of episode 4. Why did he give his story to TTG? He was not even working with them and why would TTG just accept it? TTG is a complete asshole.
Please do not insult people who worked on the game. The recently updated Forum Guideline 1.1 (about respecting users) applies not only to users/volunteer Moderators but Telltale staff members as well - even if they are not involved in the discussion.
1.1 R-E-S-P-E-C-T! We're all here to have fun, so be cool to each other. Always behave respectfully towards other community members, moderators and Telltale team members. Insults, hate speech, platform wars… leave it out. Constructive criticism of another user's opinions or actions is OK, but refrain from insulting users/volunteer moderators/Telltale staff members themselves - whether directly or in passing. If you feel especially slighted by another forum member, use the "Flag" button to report their comments to moderators instead of shooting back!
Jane. I blame her so much because she wanted me to leave my own friend behind to die, I told her that we should talk peacefully to Arvo, she… more even agreed but she just ditched her agreatment thus making him ambush Clem's group getting Luke killed. Oh, almost forgot, Jane made Luke an offer which caused him to ditch his job letting the group spot the walkers instead, causing Sarah to die. Who had the idea to have Jane in the game and gave her much development? [Mod edit: Removed insult against writers]
Other than the obvious villian Carver. As far as blame within the group goes, the number one subject of blame for a group's downfall would be said group's lack of unity and as such the blame goes in that order ascending.
Clementine: The least blame-able in the group because Clem is perfect and clearly the most competent out of everyone.
Cabin Group: Incompetence and distrust with strangers aside. They had a good thing going on and didn't fetaly argue with each other.
Sarah, Sarita and Rebecca: The weakest chain in the link bring with them the least experience in unity. The burden of protecting them made stuff harder, they're not the main ones to blame though still.
Kenny: Constant arguments with almost all group members along with mostly impulsive actions. Kenny can act coordinated sometimes (keyword "sometimes") as most of his skills lie in solo abilities. This is very bad but still not half as bad as people who outright betray the group like...
Jane: Not the biggest form of betrayal but still. Tried to urge clementine to leave kenny and then later devised a plan to convince her of that. Rather than talk to kenny face to face about it. Still leaving someone is not as bad as leaving them AND taking their food like
Mike, Bonnie and Arvo: The only way you can do worse than leaving the group secretly. Is to leave them while taking their everything. Bonus asshole points if said group is taking care of the baby. Bonnie and Mike's for the most part superb support and attitude gets thrown down the drain by their lack of loyalty and tolerance leading to an act that destroys almost the whole group. With the whole Jane act being the remaining icing on the cake.
It seems pretty thoughtless that they decided to escape mainly because Luke didn't agree with Carver's methods.
I think there was more reason for them leaving than there being a "disagreement" between Luke and Carver, it just wasn't explained all that much in depth.
There's quite a lot of underlying signs that there is more opposition and animosity between Carver and the group than one would initially assume.
Carlos and Carver come to mind. Carver refers to Carlos as a "smug son of a bitch, but a smart man", and when Carlos is telling Clementine about Carver, he refers to him by full name. Generally speaking, you don't refer to someone by their full name unless there's a good reason for it, usually when you either have an intense rivalry with them, or when they are particularly dangerous or notorious in some fashion. Carlos also mentions that they were "lucky to escape", whatever that may amount to. He also says that he hates to involve Clementine, but that she'd be safer with them now that he's seen her. Also, the fact that Carlos straight up spits in his face when he sees him. That's generally seen as an immense sign of disrespect, which begs the question: what did Carver do to warrant such a response from Carlos? Then there's him saying that Kenny has no idea what he's dealing with when they're in the truck. Also, if Alvin's alive at the time, Rebecca agrees with wanting to leave the camp after Kenny's beating, worrying that Carver would eventually kill Alvin if given long enough.
Rebecca harbors quite a lot of animosity towards Carver, and mentions that he "has a hard time letting go". If Clementine says that he wouldn't kill a doctor, Rebecca says that he'd "do anything", which implies that he's done some potentially nasty things before. Rebecca also mentions in the truck that Kenny doesn't know Carver like they do, which implies that the cabin group were on a personal enough level with him before. She also goes on to say that he's different/worse, whatever that means.
He beats Alvin half to death. Sure, Alvin might have killed one of his men, but does that really justify beating him as badly as he did? There's got to be more to that story than "Alvin killed a guard" to warrant that. Then of course there's Carver mentioning that there were a couple of things they "had to get worked out" when Clementine questions him about it. Also, when you choose to say "I wish Kenny killed you", Carver asks "Do you think anyone out there would have the balls to say something like that?". Clementine looks over to Alvin and Carver replies "Oh he did, but look where he landed" which also implies that Alvin may not have been so submissive in the past.
Pete mentions Carver briefly back in the cabin when they're arguing about Clementine, saying that "he's not the type to let things lie"
The group seem overall hesitant regarding Carver, and when they first stumble across the bodies at the stream, Carver is the first person that Nick assumes did it. When Clementine asks who Carver is, both of them look at each other and immediately brush it off. Nick, Pete and Sarah seem to be the only members of the group that don't have any personal issues with Carver in particular, but are still actively wary of him.
Carver apparently roughs up Luke when he captures him, given Luke's new cuts and bruises, and his injured ribs in Amid the Ruins (he also says in regards to his ribs that "Carver messed me up pretty good back there"). Not the biggest deal, but that still says that he didn't just simply detain Luke, he actually beat him as well. Given that he was found inside the camp with all the guards and guns, it seems a bit unnecessary to beat him up in addition to capturing him.
Sarah mentions that her dad said they'd "never come back here" when Carver recaptures them. That alone implies that they had to have left for more of a reason than Luke simply not agreeing with Carver on something.
Then you have the possibility that Reggie's arm was indeed cut off as punishment, which only further reinforces that Carver's methods could be seen as brutish, especially given that he had Reggie's entire arm removed. I could get behind removing a hand or a finger, but the entire arm?
Then you have his actual actions in episode 3: smacking Clementine to the ground for disobedience, forcing Carlos to slap Sarah for disobedience, severely beating Kenny to near death for disobedience and stealing, killing Reggie for incompetence and weakness rather than simply exiling him. Not necessarily horrible things on their own, but they do come across as fairly brutal methods, especially when there's less violent alternatives.
It seems like there's a lot of underlying reasons for them wanting to leave, some of them more personal than others. The only problem is that none are built upon as deeply as they could have been.
I think most of the implications suggest that Carver was a rather brutal individual (the trailer descriptions for episodes 3 and 4 refer to Carver as a "brutally violent new leader" and a "brutal captor", one of the episode 3 screenshots refers to Carver as a "brutal leader", and a game description for episode 3 refers to Carver as "a leader whose intelligence is rivaled only by his propensity for brutal violence"), and the group began to feel less safe around him, which lead to growing feelings of distrust and Luke's opposition to Carvers methods, which eventually reached a breaking point (or maybe just a "straw that broke the camel's back" moment) which finally prompted them to escape. Sure, escaping with a pregnant Rebecca may not be the brightest idea, but as we all know, people don't make the best decisions when they're scared.
Either way, Carver and the cabin group made for a rather interesting and grey dilemma, as both seemed to have valid reasons for what they did; the group for wanting to run away, and Carver for wanting to hunt them down.
Seeing how almost everyone blames Carver, I'm gonna step in and say that the Cabin Group shouldn't have left Howe's at the first place.
T… morehey were completely unprepared and unaware of the danger waiting on the outside. It seems pretty thoughtless that they decided to escape mainly because Luke didn't agree with Carver's methods. In my opinion, things would've been better if they stayed at Howe's (or at least wait for the baby).
Let's summarize everything:
* sheltered child with an anxiety problems suddenly faced the danger of the outside world, without CG expecting her lack of knowledge to be a potential problem to the whole group;
* a woman in advanced pregnancy was forced to marsh through the unknown area, CG couldn't know they would find any shelter for Junior to be born, considering the forest ain't exactly as safe place as Howe's, the baby's life was exposed to a much greater danger;
* they endangered Howe's community by … [view original content]
It seems like there's a lot of underlying reasons for them wanting to leave, some of them more personal than others. The only problem is that none are built upon as deeply as they could have been.
Actually, I see it more like an advantage rather than a problem, I enjoyed S2 mainly because it had very vague atmosphere, some topics felt unfinished and uncopleted. This lack of obviousness provided a lot of opportunities for players to create their own theories and immerse themselves deep into a game, what wouldn't happen if the game had explained every single ambiguity step by step.
The main reason of why people blind hate Carver, is because they don't try to understand his character and what he was representing, see the development hidden under tyranny and brutality Carver is automatically linked to. Simple change in perspective can create a wide variety of forms in one person.
Sorry I won't refer to every part of your reasoning (deep dark night here where I live), but I believe I got the most important arguments and questions you've pointed out.
First off, I must protect Carver and say we shouldn't judge him out of things we haven't seen. We know that Carver dramastically changed, and the main reason of why this happened was George's death. Considering we have no damn idea who George was, I can just speculate he was someone very close to Carver, most likely his best friend or family member, and this loss has affected Bill substantially. Both Bonnie and Rebecca confirmed that Carver became "much worse". I repeat once again, we need a prequel DLC to uncover that part of the story.
what did Carver do to warrant such a response from Carlos?
Carlos loved Sarah so much that he sheltered her from the real world, causing her condition to got worse. Knowing Carver's philosophy and how he described the next generation being stronger, "in order to lead people out of apocalipse", he certainly tried to explain Carlos his way of thinking, perhaps even suggesting he could take care of her. Carlos, as overprotective father, refused his offer (rather aggressively, I'd say), which caused growing quarrel and strong hate between those two. It was a threat they couldn't get rid of - Carver needed Carlos because of his medical skills, and Carlos had to be careful due to Carver being a rigorus leader. Perhaps Sarah would've bacome another person if she had been educated differently/someone explained her new world's realities, like Lee did to Clementine. Oh the irony.
Alvin might have killed one of his men, but does that really justify beating him as badly as he did?
We don't know the exact scene, we didn't hear the words that have been said in there. Unfounded criticism overshadows logical thinking. For example, if Bill and George were brothers - or something along these lines - and George died the painful death murdered by Alvin, by all means wanting to hurt a man who slept with his wife? Carver was broken and thirsty for revenge, I can understand the beating, especially if it was determinant.
Given that Luke was found inside the camp with all the guards and guns, it seems a bit unnecessary to beat him up in addition to capturing him.
Again, we don't know what thoroughly happened. The whole scene with another walkie talkie, how Carver found it, have someone confessed out of fear or guilt. Luke might even got into a fight with Troy or someone else, it wouldn't suprise me at all. "Carver messed me pretty bad" could also refer to Howe's Hardware at general. I remember them using "Carver" as a replacement world in a few situations.
Either way, Carver and the cabin group made for a rather interesting and grey dilemma, as both seemed to have valid reasons for what they did; the group for wanting to run away, and Carver for wanting to hunt them down.
It seems pretty thoughtless that they decided to escape mainly because Luke didn't agree with Carver's methods.
I think there was mo… morere reason for them leaving than there being a "disagreement" between Luke and Carver, it just wasn't explained all that much in depth.
There's quite a lot of underlying signs that there is more opposition and animosity between Carver and the group than one would initially assume.
Carlos and Carver come to mind. Carver refers to Carlos as a "smug son of a bitch, but a smart man", and when Carlos is telling Clementine about Carver, he refers to him by full name. Generally speaking, you don't refer to someone by their full name unless there's a good reason for it, usually when you either have an intense rivalry with them, or when they are particularly dangerous or notorious in some fashion. Carlos also mentions that they were "lucky to escape", whatever that may amount to. He also says that he hates to… [view original content]
Actually, I see it more like an advantage rather than a problem, I enjoyed S2 mainly because it had very vague atmosphere, some topics felt unfinished and uncopleted. This lack of obviousness provided a lot of opportunities for players to create their own theories and immerse themselves deep into a game, what wouldn't happen if the game had explained every single ambiguity step by step.
I can totally get behind that viewpoint, and to a degree, I actually agree. However, I do feel that there is some stuff that could have been built upon slightly more. Like you, I like the ambiguity for the most part, but there's some scenes and relationships between characters that feel a little too vague. Just a bit more information would be helpful, IE giving us a bit more info on George. Even something as simple as what his job was, or Alvin claiming it was an accident while Carver thinks otherwise would still leave it ambiguous enough to draw interpretations.
The main reason of why people blind hate Carver, is because they don't try to understand his character and what he was representing, see the development hidden under tyranny and brutality Carver is automatically linked to. Simple change in perspective can create a wide variety of forms in one person.
Can't disagree there. I think there's still a lot of interesting details about Carver if you look a bit deeper. I know a lot of people here criticize him for being over-the-top like a cartoon villain (his episode 3 appearance in particular), but I never got that impression. I saw an interesting character that worked very well as an antagonist. No matter what anyone else says, Carver was one of the best parts of S2. Him being voiced by Michael Madsen, that was just icing on top of an already awesome cake.
Now, I want to make clear that I wasn't trying to vilify Carver or anything like that, but trying to refute a portion of your original post:
It seems pretty thoughtless that they decided to escape mainly because Luke didn't agree with Carver's methods.
I'm inclined to disagree with decision to leave being thoughtless. There's definitely reason for them to leave in the long run, one of the contributing factors being Carver's propensity for violence. Which is what I was getting at in my post. I was citing the general relationships between different characters as insights into what motivated them to leave, as well as some of Carver's actions against characters, as reasons that stemmed further than a disagreement between Luke and Carver.
It seems like there's a lot of underlying reasons for them wanting to leave, some of them more personal than others. The only problem is tha… moret none are built upon as deeply as they could have been.
Actually, I see it more like an advantage rather than a problem, I enjoyed S2 mainly because it had very vague atmosphere, some topics felt unfinished and uncopleted. This lack of obviousness provided a lot of opportunities for players to create their own theories and immerse themselves deep into a game, what wouldn't happen if the game had explained every single ambiguity step by step.
The main reason of why people blind hate Carver, is because they don't try to understand his character and what he was representing, see the development hidden under tyranny and brutality Carver is automatically linked to. Simple change in perspective can create a wide variety of forms in one person.
Sorry I won't refer to every part of your reasoning (… [view original content]
I concure with you.
If someone doesn't like the something, then that's their problem.
But that doesn't give them the right to respect someone who took the time, and who did the best they could do to design something that others might enjoy.
If you didn't put the work into creating something, then what right do you really have to criticize?
Apparently some users have forgotten the old saying: "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."
The (recently updated) Forum Guideline 1.1 asks users to respect not just other users/volunteer Moderators, but Telltale Staff as well. Even… more though J.T. Petty isn't a Telltale staff member, I'm going to ask that you still not insult him anyways as he did work on a part of the game.
1.1 R-E-S-P-E-C-T! We're all here to have fun, so be cool to each other. Always behave respectfully towards other community members, moderators and Telltale team members. Insults, hate speech, platform wars… leave it out. Constructive criticism of another user's opinions or actions is OK, but refrain from insulting users/volunteer moderators/Telltale staff members themselves - whether directly or in passing. If you feel especially slighted by another forum member, use the "Flag" button to report their comments to moderators instead of shooting back!
I think we all agree that a prequel DLC would be a great opportunity to answer all questions that we haven't got clear answers to. For example, I'd love to see an actual relationship between Luke and Carver since the game avoided that topic (Luke is missing during the hostage scene; his very first reunion with Carver is skipped). I felt like it was supposed to be something big - for example Luke being Carver's son, one of the fans' theory I would like to be true - and it was suddenly changed. Not to mention that a prequel DLC could explain certain things not related to CG, for exampe the river massacre and even have something to do with Christa's disappearance.
Actually, I see it more like an advantage rather than a problem, I enjoyed S2 mainly because it had very vague atmosphere, some topics felt … moreunfinished and uncopleted. This lack of obviousness provided a lot of opportunities for players to create their own theories and immerse themselves deep into a game, what wouldn't happen if the game had explained every single ambiguity step by step.
I can totally get behind that viewpoint, and to a degree, I actually agree. However, I do feel that there is some stuff that could have been built upon slightly more. Like you, I like the ambiguity for the most part, but there's some scenes and relationships between characters that feel a little too vague. Just a bit more information would be helpful, IE giving us a bit more info on George. Even something as simple as what his job was, or Alvin claiming it was an accident while Carver thinks otherwise would still leave it ambiguous enough to draw inter… [view original content]
Cabin group DLC is one that I'd actually really like to see. Unexplored relationships, and I'd really like to see more interaction between the cabin group and Carver. Also being able to see the community more in depth, and from a different perspective (we only really saw it as prisoners/captives).
Also, we'd get to see them wearing different clothes. Luke in a short sleeve shirt? mmm, I wouldn't mind some of that
I think we all agree that a prequel DLC would be a great opportunity to answer all questions that we haven't got clear answers to. For examp… morele, I'd love to see an actual relationship between Luke and Carver since the game avoided that topic (Luke is missing during the hostage scene; his very first reunion with Carver is skipped). I felt like it was supposed to be something big - for example Luke being Carver's son, one of the fans' theory I would like to be true - and it was suddenly changed. Not to mention that a prequel DLC could explain certain things not related to CG, for exampe the river massacre and even have something to do with Christa's disappearance.
Carver killed most of them, and him being a tyrant is what caused them to leave Howe's, which was a pretty decent place, and after that shit mostly went worse.
Let's see... going to get every character in this.
Carlos - Dude tries to keep his daughter unaware, can't tell the difference between a walker bite and a dog bite so-called doctor.
Rebecca - Assumes everyone knows who Carver is and thinks it's okay to be hostile especially Clementine. I wouldn't even forgive her. Fuck her.
Bonnie - Says she will be good from now on, tries to leave and take the truck (THE NEW BOAT!!), blames Clementine for Luke even though this bitch approached him and he said to not get close. She wants that D
Kenny - Still can't learn his mistakes which led to his son dead if he just learns to be competent. He should have been way better in Season 2. But nope, he wants to blame Clementine even though she didn't cut Sarita's arm. Sorry ass dude.
Jane - The new molly except suddenly saying she loved Luke from that one nighter, antagonizes Kenny by risking a BABY's LIFE! I mean what kind of sick fucker would do that? I let her die. Crazy bitch!
Sarah - She wants to call Clementine a little kid yet she's all over around not being helpful and gets slapped. Clementine should have slapped her right there. It's not all her fault but I'd rather have Duck. At least he somewhat knows what's going on.
The whole group minus Clementine - They leave the damn door open on both sides and Rebecca accuses Clementine of leaving it open. Incompetence is Incompetent.
Cabin group DLC is one that I'd actually really like to see. Unexplored relationships, and I'd really like to see more interaction between t… morehe cabin group and Carver. Also being able to see the community more in depth, and from a different perspective (we only really saw it as prisoners/captives).
Also, we'd get to see them wearing different clothes. Luke in a short sleeve shirt? mmm, I wouldn't mind some of that
In my Opinion, it was Kenny AND Jane.
Jane:
* Caused Rebecca to be Under More stress with her talk of the Baby
* Robbed and/or conv… moreinced You to rob from Arvo, then proceeded to threaten him
* Not to mention she didn't straight up kill Arvo.
* Distracted Luke so he couldn't keep an eye out for walkers, But to be fair, It was Luke's fault too.
* Left the group and didn't come back in time to help with the firefight, Her absence to the very end Got Luke and Mike shot (IMO)
* Didn't Let Kenny Kill Arvo
* Kept antagonizing Kenny until he was pushed to far
* Hid AJ to prove a Point.
Kenny:
* Shot one of Carver's Goons, Leading to the Death of Walter
* Didn't surrender causing Carlos' fingers to be broken and/or causing Alvin's death
* Attempted to escape an Impossible situation with Carver several times
* Took the fall for the walkie talkie, and Getting Beat down, Psyching Sarita out, Making Kenny Slower, Making Sarah mor… [view original content]
Clementine. Where she goes, the plot follows. And when you're involved in a Walking Dead storyline written by Telltale, 997/1000 you're going to wind up dead.
Comments
I don't think it was any one persons fault. It was a series of difficult situations combined with no food, and freezing temperatures.
Obviously it was the writing.... ITS THE WRITERS FAULT GARWl.
Just joking please don't get defensive.
I do hate ONE writer. Being J.T. Petty who was the writer of episode 4. Why did he give his story to TTG? He was not even working with them and why would TTG just accept it? TTG is a complete asshole.
Why did Jane decide to fuck Luke during the middle of a crisis? "Oh yeah, its the middle of a zombie apocalypse. People are dying and there's walkers everywhere. Oh well, who gives a shit? Let's fuck!" Stupid bitch she was. Excuse me for my profanity lol
The whole of the cabin group were so incompetent you could really blame any of them
I thought Carver raped her?
It was very implicit that it was a mutual affair that Rebecca had with Carver. Right before Kenny bashes his face in Carver rants about how Rebecca liked every minute of her nights with him. And at least Luke and Bonnie knew about the affair and if Carver had raped Rebecca, I don't think they'd have a problem simply killing Carver. And Rebecca didn't really give off the vibe that Carver raped her, just that she regretted the affair (probably b/c Carver became so domineering and controlling, especially once Rebecca's baby bump started showing)
Carver almost injured and paralyzed the others such as almost finishing off Kenny and hurting Luke in the ribs and gave Alvin a strong beat down. and I think sarah did a small mistake letting her father die because of panicking and almost made clementine stuck with her inside that house. And Jane did almost killed the whole group by making love with Luke and leaving the deck un-ready. Arvo did cause a little damage to the group by letting mike getting hurt on the arm and making Luke hurt, even tho viltal did it, if arvo didn't bring his group and started attacking, it wouldn't happen.
Problem with Cabin group was that they werent ready for apocalypse. Only reasonable people there were Pete and Luke and others wouldnt survive without them.
I always wanted the option to just offer Rebecca up to Carver in exchange for everyone else...Carver really only wanted Rebecca and the baby. taking the rest of the gang back was due to George getting slaughtered in the process of their escape.
Well at least they aren't on their tails and carvers is dead ;3
Wow, you could be right about Walter .-.
It was something more like an office romance between boss and subordinate.
The (recently updated) Forum Guideline 1.1 asks users to respect not just other users/volunteer Moderators, but Telltale Staff as well. Even though J.T. Petty isn't a Telltale staff member, I'm going to ask that you still not insult him anyways as he did work on a part of the game.
Please do not insult people who worked on the game. The recently updated Forum Guideline 1.1 (about respecting users) applies not only to users/volunteer Moderators but Telltale staff members as well - even if they are not involved in the discussion.
Other than the obvious villian Carver. As far as blame within the group goes, the number one subject of blame for a group's downfall would be said group's lack of unity and as such the blame goes in that order ascending.
Clementine: The least blame-able in the group because Clem is perfect and clearly the most competent out of everyone.
Cabin Group: Incompetence and distrust with strangers aside. They had a good thing going on and didn't fetaly argue with each other.
Sarah, Sarita and Rebecca: The weakest chain in the link bring with them the least experience in unity. The burden of protecting them made stuff harder, they're not the main ones to blame though still.
Kenny: Constant arguments with almost all group members along with mostly impulsive actions. Kenny can act coordinated sometimes (keyword "sometimes") as most of his skills lie in solo abilities. This is very bad but still not half as bad as people who outright betray the group like...
Jane: Not the biggest form of betrayal but still. Tried to urge clementine to leave kenny and then later devised a plan to convince her of that. Rather than talk to kenny face to face about it. Still leaving someone is not as bad as leaving them AND taking their food like
Mike, Bonnie and Arvo: The only way you can do worse than leaving the group secretly. Is to leave them while taking their everything. Bonus asshole points if said group is taking care of the baby. Bonnie and Mike's for the most part superb support and attitude gets thrown down the drain by their lack of loyalty and tolerance leading to an act that destroys almost the whole group. With the whole Jane act being the remaining icing on the cake.
I think there was more reason for them leaving than there being a "disagreement" between Luke and Carver, it just wasn't explained all that much in depth.
There's quite a lot of underlying signs that there is more opposition and animosity between Carver and the group than one would initially assume.
Carlos and Carver come to mind. Carver refers to Carlos as a "smug son of a bitch, but a smart man", and when Carlos is telling Clementine about Carver, he refers to him by full name. Generally speaking, you don't refer to someone by their full name unless there's a good reason for it, usually when you either have an intense rivalry with them, or when they are particularly dangerous or notorious in some fashion. Carlos also mentions that they were "lucky to escape", whatever that may amount to. He also says that he hates to involve Clementine, but that she'd be safer with them now that he's seen her. Also, the fact that Carlos straight up spits in his face when he sees him. That's generally seen as an immense sign of disrespect, which begs the question: what did Carver do to warrant such a response from Carlos? Then there's him saying that Kenny has no idea what he's dealing with when they're in the truck. Also, if Alvin's alive at the time, Rebecca agrees with wanting to leave the camp after Kenny's beating, worrying that Carver would eventually kill Alvin if given long enough.
Rebecca harbors quite a lot of animosity towards Carver, and mentions that he "has a hard time letting go". If Clementine says that he wouldn't kill a doctor, Rebecca says that he'd "do anything", which implies that he's done some potentially nasty things before. Rebecca also mentions in the truck that Kenny doesn't know Carver like they do, which implies that the cabin group were on a personal enough level with him before. She also goes on to say that he's different/worse, whatever that means.
He beats Alvin half to death. Sure, Alvin might have killed one of his men, but does that really justify beating him as badly as he did? There's got to be more to that story than "Alvin killed a guard" to warrant that. Then of course there's Carver mentioning that there were a couple of things they "had to get worked out" when Clementine questions him about it. Also, when you choose to say "I wish Kenny killed you", Carver asks "Do you think anyone out there would have the balls to say something like that?". Clementine looks over to Alvin and Carver replies "Oh he did, but look where he landed" which also implies that Alvin may not have been so submissive in the past.
Pete mentions Carver briefly back in the cabin when they're arguing about Clementine, saying that "he's not the type to let things lie"
The group seem overall hesitant regarding Carver, and when they first stumble across the bodies at the stream, Carver is the first person that Nick assumes did it. When Clementine asks who Carver is, both of them look at each other and immediately brush it off. Nick, Pete and Sarah seem to be the only members of the group that don't have any personal issues with Carver in particular, but are still actively wary of him.
Carver apparently roughs up Luke when he captures him, given Luke's new cuts and bruises, and his injured ribs in Amid the Ruins (he also says in regards to his ribs that "Carver messed me up pretty good back there"). Not the biggest deal, but that still says that he didn't just simply detain Luke, he actually beat him as well. Given that he was found inside the camp with all the guards and guns, it seems a bit unnecessary to beat him up in addition to capturing him.
Sarah mentions that her dad said they'd "never come back here" when Carver recaptures them. That alone implies that they had to have left for more of a reason than Luke simply not agreeing with Carver on something.
Then you have the possibility that Reggie's arm was indeed cut off as punishment, which only further reinforces that Carver's methods could be seen as brutish, especially given that he had Reggie's entire arm removed. I could get behind removing a hand or a finger, but the entire arm?
Then you have his actual actions in episode 3: smacking Clementine to the ground for disobedience, forcing Carlos to slap Sarah for disobedience, severely beating Kenny to near death for disobedience and stealing, killing Reggie for incompetence and weakness rather than simply exiling him. Not necessarily horrible things on their own, but they do come across as fairly brutal methods, especially when there's less violent alternatives.
It seems like there's a lot of underlying reasons for them wanting to leave, some of them more personal than others. The only problem is that none are built upon as deeply as they could have been.
I think most of the implications suggest that Carver was a rather brutal individual (the trailer descriptions for episodes 3 and 4 refer to Carver as a "brutally violent new leader" and a "brutal captor", one of the episode 3 screenshots refers to Carver as a "brutal leader", and a game description for episode 3 refers to Carver as "a leader whose intelligence is rivaled only by his propensity for brutal violence"), and the group began to feel less safe around him, which lead to growing feelings of distrust and Luke's opposition to Carvers methods, which eventually reached a breaking point (or maybe just a "straw that broke the camel's back" moment) which finally prompted them to escape. Sure, escaping with a pregnant Rebecca may not be the brightest idea, but as we all know, people don't make the best decisions when they're scared.
Either way, Carver and the cabin group made for a rather interesting and grey dilemma, as both seemed to have valid reasons for what they did; the group for wanting to run away, and Carver for wanting to hunt them down.
Nick Breckon and other season 2 writers
Well considering the writers basically state Kenny is the reason for the downfall of the group through Jane's analogy, it's probably Kenny.
Actually, I see it more like an advantage rather than a problem, I enjoyed S2 mainly because it had very vague atmosphere, some topics felt unfinished and uncopleted. This lack of obviousness provided a lot of opportunities for players to create their own theories and immerse themselves deep into a game, what wouldn't happen if the game had explained every single ambiguity step by step.
The main reason of why people blind hate Carver, is because they don't try to understand his character and what he was representing, see the development hidden under tyranny and brutality Carver is automatically linked to. Simple change in perspective can create a wide variety of forms in one person.
Sorry I won't refer to every part of your reasoning (deep dark night here where I live), but I believe I got the most important arguments and questions you've pointed out.
First off, I must protect Carver and say we shouldn't judge him out of things we haven't seen. We know that Carver dramastically changed, and the main reason of why this happened was George's death. Considering we have no damn idea who George was, I can just speculate he was someone very close to Carver, most likely his best friend or family member, and this loss has affected Bill substantially. Both Bonnie and Rebecca confirmed that Carver became "much worse". I repeat once again, we need a prequel DLC to uncover that part of the story.
Carlos loved Sarah so much that he sheltered her from the real world, causing her condition to got worse. Knowing Carver's philosophy and how he described the next generation being stronger, "in order to lead people out of apocalipse", he certainly tried to explain Carlos his way of thinking, perhaps even suggesting he could take care of her. Carlos, as overprotective father, refused his offer (rather aggressively, I'd say), which caused growing quarrel and strong hate between those two. It was a threat they couldn't get rid of - Carver needed Carlos because of his medical skills, and Carlos had to be careful due to Carver being a rigorus leader. Perhaps Sarah would've bacome another person if she had been educated differently/someone explained her new world's realities, like Lee did to Clementine. Oh the irony.
We don't know the exact scene, we didn't hear the words that have been said in there. Unfounded criticism overshadows logical thinking. For example, if Bill and George were brothers - or something along these lines - and George died the painful death murdered by Alvin, by all means wanting to hurt a man who slept with his wife? Carver was broken and thirsty for revenge, I can understand the beating, especially if it was determinant.
Again, we don't know what thoroughly happened. The whole scene with another walkie talkie, how Carver found it, have someone confessed out of fear or guilt. Luke might even got into a fight with Troy or someone else, it wouldn't suprise me at all. "Carver messed me pretty bad" could also refer to Howe's Hardware at general. I remember them using "Carver" as a replacement world in a few situations.
Agreed. Cheers, friend.
The writers, Lol!
Is this a clip from the film: Philadelphia?
I can totally get behind that viewpoint, and to a degree, I actually agree. However, I do feel that there is some stuff that could have been built upon slightly more. Like you, I like the ambiguity for the most part, but there's some scenes and relationships between characters that feel a little too vague. Just a bit more information would be helpful, IE giving us a bit more info on George. Even something as simple as what his job was, or Alvin claiming it was an accident while Carver thinks otherwise would still leave it ambiguous enough to draw interpretations.
Can't disagree there. I think there's still a lot of interesting details about Carver if you look a bit deeper. I know a lot of people here criticize him for being over-the-top like a cartoon villain (his episode 3 appearance in particular), but I never got that impression. I saw an interesting character that worked very well as an antagonist. No matter what anyone else says, Carver was one of the best parts of S2. Him being voiced by Michael Madsen, that was just icing on top of an already awesome cake.
Now, I want to make clear that I wasn't trying to vilify Carver or anything like that, but trying to refute a portion of your original post:
I'm inclined to disagree with decision to leave being thoughtless. There's definitely reason for them to leave in the long run, one of the contributing factors being Carver's propensity for violence. Which is what I was getting at in my post. I was citing the general relationships between different characters as insights into what motivated them to leave, as well as some of Carver's actions against characters, as reasons that stemmed further than a disagreement between Luke and Carver.
Yes
Really?
I don't remember Denzel Washington smoking a cigar in that film.
I concure with you.
If someone doesn't like the something, then that's their problem.
But that doesn't give them the right to respect someone who took the time, and who did the best they could do to design something that others might enjoy.
If you didn't put the work into creating something, then what right do you really have to criticize?
Apparently some users have forgotten the old saying: "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."
I think we all agree that a prequel DLC would be a great opportunity to answer all questions that we haven't got clear answers to. For example, I'd love to see an actual relationship between Luke and Carver since the game avoided that topic (Luke is missing during the hostage scene; his very first reunion with Carver is skipped). I felt like it was supposed to be something big - for example Luke being Carver's son, one of the fans' theory I would like to be true - and it was suddenly changed. Not to mention that a prequel DLC could explain certain things not related to CG, for exampe the river massacre and even have something to do with Christa's disappearance.
Cabin group DLC is one that I'd actually really like to see. Unexplored relationships, and I'd really like to see more interaction between the cabin group and Carver. Also being able to see the community more in depth, and from a different perspective (we only really saw it as prisoners/captives).
Also, we'd get to see them wearing different clothes. Luke in a short sleeve shirt? mmm, I wouldn't mind some of that
regardless of it being an 'office romance', it was still a consensual affair
Carver killed most of them, and him being a tyrant is what caused them to leave Howe's, which was a pretty decent place, and after that shit mostly went worse.
Let's see... going to get every character in this.
Carlos - Dude tries to keep his daughter unaware, can't tell the difference between a walker bite and a dog bite so-called doctor.
Rebecca - Assumes everyone knows who Carver is and thinks it's okay to be hostile especially Clementine. I wouldn't even forgive her. Fuck her.
Bonnie - Says she will be good from now on, tries to leave and take the truck (THE NEW BOAT!!), blames Clementine for Luke even though this bitch approached him and he said to not get close. She wants that D
Kenny - Still can't learn his mistakes which led to his son dead if he just learns to be competent. He should have been way better in Season 2. But nope, he wants to blame Clementine even though she didn't cut Sarita's arm. Sorry ass dude.
Jane - The new molly except suddenly saying she loved Luke from that one nighter, antagonizes Kenny by risking a BABY's LIFE! I mean what kind of sick fucker would do that? I let her die. Crazy bitch!
Sarah - She wants to call Clementine a little kid yet she's all over around not being helpful and gets slapped. Clementine should have slapped her right there. It's not all her fault but I'd rather have Duck. At least he somewhat knows what's going on.
The whole group minus Clementine - They leave the damn door open on both sides and Rebecca accuses Clementine of leaving it open. Incompetence is Incompetent.
I just want to see Carver handing out toothbrushes.
"He gave everybody toothbrushes once, but not Luke."
and vice versa
Kenny
Indeed. But they're both to blame.
In total agreement.
Sure. At this point of time the group was extinct anyway.
Clementine. Where she goes, the plot follows. And when you're involved in a Walking Dead storyline written by Telltale, 997/1000 you're going to wind up dead.
Honestly Luke and Clem practically carried the entire group, everyone is to blame but them.
Characters were written too weak this season. After the wind turbine incident I knew most of them would die.