Now you're missing the point. Nobody wants them to be nice, the problem is that Fiona really is acting like a bitch in the framing device regardless of what, if anything, may come to "justify" it, and is otherwise not demonstrably a better or more moral person than Rhys, and so deserves at least the same karmic backlash (from a meta-plot viewpoint) that he does for his behavior.
But what we get is Rhys getting by far the shorter end of the stick, falling off ledges and getting thrown off cars and consistently getting the crap physically and verbally beaten out of him, including in the framing device, by Fiona, while she rarely gets hurt at all, even when she really, really should. All I'm saying is that this might contribute to some players giving Rhys a little more slack than Fiona, even if it's supposed to be for comedy.
And I am not "grossly exaggerating" what happens in the present day. What I say is exactly what I've observed. Maybe you didn't notice as much because you just got quickly used to seeing everything bad happen to Rhys.
I'd like to point out that you've called my "thinking" stupid once and my "reasons" petty twice apparently without knowing jack shit about either. Is this how you normally argue?
Like I said before, Fiona AND Rhys are not meant to be nice or compassionate characters like you want them to be so don't expect Fiona and S… moreasha to act like Rhy's and Vaughn's parents or anything, that's just stupid thinking. If I don't have the context yet as to why Rhys would abuse Fiona especially since there IS context that I haven't seen yet then I'm not going jump on the "Let's all hate Rhys because he punched a woman even if this woman might have deserved it" bandwagon.
You also seem to be ignoring the fact that Hyperions are not well liked on Pandora, since like Sasha says, Hyperion made hell for so many Pandorans, so why should Fiona and Sasha give two sleazy Hyperion workers a chance since there is always a possibility that Rhys and Vaughn will end up killing the both of them first?
I should probably mention that if Fiona kicks the pshyco instead Vaughn will then grab the psycho and drag him off into the road and not SAY ANYT… [view original content]
It had been months since I'd played the first episode when I wrote the OP and the first few replies. Having played the game over again, I've discovered that my problem with her is that she's pretentious, inconsistent and that nobody calls her out on anything. Translation: She's badly written. Guess that happens to female characters too. Who knew?
That's funny. I've seen so many people saying how much they hate Fiona because she's mean, harsh, flippant or doesn't seem to care about any… morething. And now you're saying you hate her because she's overly compassionate. Translation: She's the main female character so it doesn't matter what she does or how she's portrayed, people are going to hate her.
Yes, you're asking for Fiona to apologize for EVERY SINGLE "rude" thing you think she does and it's dumb as that's not who her character is, so you are asking for Fiona to be a 100% nice person.
Rhys getting the short end of the stick is just there for easy comedy, he's the wimpy, Hyperion punching bag and Fiona is the tough as nails Pandoran, so Rhys getting all this abuse is just there to make the audience laugh at his misery, if that happened to Fiona then she would be a completely different character from the way Telltale wrote her.
Yes, judging from you've stated your reasons are petty and taken out of context and your thought process of not even taking from what I've defended about Fiona into account namely the fact you forgot that Fiona can save Vaughn twice in episode 1.
Now you're missing the point. Nobody wants them to be nice, the problem is that Fiona really is acting like a bitch in the framing device re… moregardless of what, if anything, may come to "justify" it, and is otherwise not demonstrably a better or more moral person than Rhys, and so deserves at least the same karmic backlash (from a meta-plot viewpoint) that he does for his behavior.
But what we get is Rhys getting by far the shorter end of the stick, falling off ledges and getting thrown off cars and consistently getting the crap physically and verbally beaten out of him, including in the framing device, by Fiona, while she rarely gets hurt at all, even when she really, really should. All I'm saying is that this might contribute to some players giving Rhys a little more slack than Fiona, even if it's supposed to be for comedy.
And I am not "grossly exaggerating" what happens in the present day. What I say is exactly what I've observed. Mayb… [view original content]
I'm not asking for anything, I'm just pointing out the difference between Rhys' treatment and Fiona's, and how that might be affecting some opinions, my own included.
I don't always laugh at Rhys' misery, and even when I do I still think he deserves some slack for it. Slack that Fiona doesn't deserve because she's inexplicably written as 'totally fabulous' and barely a hair on her head is ever harmed in comparison. Which is what I have a problem with, hence the hate-thread. Rhys getting the crap beaten out of him for laughs obviously doesn't impact you in the slightest, and you somehow find Fiona's character balanced and well-written. Or whatever. Good for you, but that's not how everybody feels.
Okay, first off, you've consistently mistaken and misinterpreted my "reasons" and "thinking", so no offense but I don't think anyone considers you an authority. And second, Fiona can help Vaugh once(notice that he comes out of it just fine in any case) and warn him another time after she herself puts him in danger with the crane, and I have in fact taken that into account, and I still don't think it balances out.
Yes, you're asking for Fiona to apologize for EVERY SINGLE "rude" thing you think she does and it's dumb as that's not who her character is,… more so you are asking for Fiona to be a 100% nice person.
Rhys getting the short end of the stick is just there for easy comedy, he's the wimpy, Hyperion punching bag and Fiona is the tough as nails Pandoran, so Rhys getting all this abuse is just there to make the audience laugh at his misery, if that happened to Fiona then she would be a completely different character from the way Telltale wrote her.
Yes, judging from you've stated your reasons are petty and taken out of context and your thought process of not even taking from what I've defended about Fiona into account namely the fact you forgot that Fiona can save Vaughn twice in episode 1.
It had been months since I'd played the first episode when I wrote the OP and the first few replies. Having played the game over again, I've… more discovered that my problem with her is that she's pretentious, inconsistent and that nobody calls her out on anything. Translation: She's badly written. Guess that happens to female characters too. Who knew?
All I see from your arguments is "I'll take everything out of context, misinterpret, and make Fiona look like a stone cold bitch." Don't give me this shit that you're not asking anything from Fiona since you're complaining for the pettiest reasons that she's not apologizing for everything.
Yeah, I SOMEHOW find Fiona to be well-written character because I don't go on and complain for the stupidest reasons and completely misunderstand her character.
I'm not asking for anything, I'm just pointing out the difference between Rhys' treatment and Fiona's, and how that might be affecting some … moreopinions, my own included.
I don't always laugh at Rhys' misery, and even when I do I still think he deserves some slack for it. Slack that Fiona doesn't deserve because she's inexplicably written as 'totally fabulous' and barely a hair on her head is ever harmed in comparison. Which is what I have a problem with, hence the hate-thread. Rhys getting the crap beaten out of him for laughs obviously doesn't impact you in the slightest, and you somehow find Fiona's character balanced and well-written. Or whatever. Good for you, but that's not how everybody feels.
Okay, first off, you've consistently mistaken and misinterpreted my "reasons" and "thinking", so no offense but I don't think anyone considers you an authority. And second, Fiona can help Vaugh once(notice that he comes out of it just fine in a… [view original content]
Because she is lacking the parts of her personality that would garner a greater amount of empathy from more people. This has been covered before, but she is arrogant but doesn't suffer the foibles that Rhys suffers that makes him likable and more human in his character. Fiona is close to being a Mary Sue, she acts out over confidence and arrogance and never suffers from any blow back from it. It never get her in trouble, it never causes issues in relationships, and her actions are immediately forgiven and forgotten while other characters mistakes are brought up over and over gain.
Because she is lacking the parts of her personality that would garner a greater amount of empathy from more people. This has been covered be… morefore, but she is arrogant but doesn't suffer the foibles that Rhys suffers that makes him likable and more human in his character. Fiona is close to being a Mary Sue, she acts out over confidence and arrogance and never suffers from any blow back from it. It never get her in trouble, it never causes issues in relationships, and her actions are immediately forgiven and forgotten while other characters mistakes are brought up over and over gain.
.
You seem to confuse "take out of context" with "put in perspective". What, beating the shit out of someone and treating them like trash is okay just because you're angry? I didn't know that. Next time somebody cuts in front of me at the supermarket, or cheats me out of money, or maybe fouls my relationship with my sister, I'll give them a black eye. If they spill milk on my shoes, I think I'll spit on them too. And if someone tries to steal my car trying to escape me and my mafia buddies, oh boy, I'll kick them out on the road going at sixty miles an hour, that'll teach them! Maybe my family and friends and the police will ignore it if I just act cool, like Fiona!
Why are you yammering on about apologies? What does that have to do with anything? If I'm asking for anything, it's for her to be treated like the character she is. All I'm saying is that some people, myself included, would maybe like her a little more if she actually got hurt or messed up a little more often, or was called out on being so pretentious and vindictive every once in a while. But no, she never suffers the slightest backlash for her behavior, unlike Rhys, and is for some reason treated as the calm, rational face of the group despite acting like a clown and being disproportionally violent in equal measures. Call me crazy, but I don't find that particularly endearing in a character. Obviously you do, congratulations.
Oh, so the problem is that I've completely misunderstood her character? Well then, why don't you stop your stupid, petty, pathetic, narrow-minded insults and explain what I missed so badly? How do you see Fiona? In detail, please, so we can see exactly why your idea of her is so much more consistent and objective than mine.
All I see from your arguments is "I'll take everything out of context, misinterpret, and make Fiona look like a stone cold bitch." Don't giv… moree me this shit that you're not asking anything from Fiona since you're complaining for the pettiest reasons that she's not apologizing for everything.
Yeah, I SOMEHOW find Fiona to be well-written character because I don't go on and complain for the stupidest reasons and completely misunderstand her character.
So for someone to not be a Mary sue they have to be beaten 24:7 or called out on their "bitchy" attitude even though this "bitchy" attitude seemed to only originate from petty Fiona haters? Good to know.
Because she is lacking the parts of her personality that would garner a greater amount of empathy from more people. This has been covered be… morefore, but she is arrogant but doesn't suffer the foibles that Rhys suffers that makes him likable and more human in his character. Fiona is close to being a Mary Sue, she acts out over confidence and arrogance and never suffers from any blow back from it. It never get her in trouble, it never causes issues in relationships, and her actions are immediately forgiven and forgotten while other characters mistakes are brought up over and over gain.
.
I've already explained as to why Fiona and Rhys are written the way they are which you've seemed to have completely ignored again. I doubt I'm confusing anything as you ARE taking everything Fiona does out of context and putting into your own negative perspective on it because you personally don't like Fiona. The reasons I'm yammering on apologizes is because you are asking for Fiona to apologize for everything "rude" she does including Sasha which is stupid thinking.
And your problem with Fiona really just seems to be your own negative perception rather than the writing itself so Fiona getting called out isn't really going to happen the way you want it to since what you're whining about is of your own creation.
You also still haven't done any of that "hard work" I told you to look into to try to get me to understand your perspective because right now, you look like a whining child complaining for the pettiest reasons.
You seem to confuse "take out of context" with "put in perspective". What, beating the shit out of someone and treating them like trash is o… morekay just because you're angry? I didn't know that. Next time somebody cuts in front of me at the supermarket, or cheats me out of money, or maybe fouls my relationship with my sister, I'll give them a black eye. If they spill milk on my shoes, I think I'll spit on them too. And if someone tries to steal my car trying to escape me and my mafia buddies, oh boy, I'll kick them out on the road going at sixty miles an hour, that'll teach them! Maybe my family and friends and the police will ignore it if I just act cool, like Fiona!
Why are you yammering on about apologies? What does that have to do with anything? If I'm asking for anything, it's for her to be treated like the character she is. All I'm saying is that some people, myself included, would maybe like her a little more if she actually got hurt or… [view original content]
"She's just super awesome becuz, and he's just a punching bag for comic relief!" is basically what you said. I don't see how that clarifies anything, nor what I'm supposed to do with it.
Ah, of course, what am I thinking, putting the attempt to painfully kill two defenseless men because they tried to escape in your ride and your wanton abuse of a guy who doesn't defend himself just because of your grudge into a negative perspective? Silly me. I didn't mean to make it sound like those aren't nice things to do. I must be seriously warped by my hatred of Fiona to see them as anything but perfectly proper for a resourceful young lady looking to make it in the world. So good of you to put me straight on that. Those things are obviously justified because... why was it again?
When did I ever ask anything about apologies? What gave you that impression? Please point me to the statement that convinced you that I want Fiona and Sasha to apologize for their behavior? What I want is for other characters, and the narrative for that matter, to acknowledge that Fiona a: is pretty nasty sometimes, b: isn't actually doing anything to back up that 'classy lady rogue' image she apparently has going for her, and c: is rained on like everybody else. Brick punching her in the face helps a bit on c, but that's not enough for me to empathize with her as an actual character and not a two-dimensional Mary Sue that Telltale shoe-horned into an otherwise pretty good story with otherwise pretty good characters.
I'm not going to sit through 7-8 hours of walkthroughs to document every single one of Fiona's objectionable moments just to convince you that she isn't goddam perfect and shouldn't be treated as such. For one thing we've already drawn up the major ones and you seem to think that stating what she actually does is the same as taking it out of context, a magical context that somehow justifies everything, as far as you're concerned.
We've been debating my perspective for two days now, and you're obviously not impressed. Let's talk about yours, shall we? Explain Fiona's character to me, and we'll see how much sense your idea of her makes. Maybe it'll change my mind and I'll replay the game paying attention to her character as you outline it, and find that it actually fits, and suddenly she won't be such a horrible eyesore in my awesome Borderlands game. I'd like that, I really would.
I've already explained as to why Fiona and Rhys are written the way they are which you've seemed to have completely ignored again. I doubt … moreI'm confusing anything as you ARE taking everything Fiona does out of context and putting into your own negative perspective on it because you personally don't like Fiona. The reasons I'm yammering on apologizes is because you are asking for Fiona to apologize for everything "rude" she does including Sasha which is stupid thinking.
And your problem with Fiona really just seems to be your own negative perception rather than the writing itself so Fiona getting called out isn't really going to happen the way you want it to since what you're whining about is of your own creation.
You also still haven't done any of that "hard work" I told you to look into to try to get me to understand your perspective because right now, you look like a whining child complaining for the pettiest reasons.
Nobody said anything about her getting beaten 24:7, but an unreasonable amount of luck and skill that she doesn't deserve compared to other characters is pretty Mary Sue, yeah. And being morally reinforced by the narrative and other characters despite actions that are actually pretty horrible in perspective and a bitchy attitude that is very much manifest, thank you very much, is also pretty Mary Sue. Good thing we got that all cleared up, huh?
So for someone to not be a Mary sue they have to be beaten 24:7 or called out on their "bitchy" attitude even though this "bitchy" attitude seemed to only originate from petty Fiona haters? Good to know.
As far as I know people have been commenting on their dislike of a fictional character, and in response those who disagreed did so by making personal attacks on their character. I would suggest you dial back the ad hominem attacks on people for having a difference of opinion. It revels more about your character than the fictional one being debated about.
So for someone to not be a Mary sue they have to be beaten 24:7 or called out on their "bitchy" attitude even though this "bitchy" attitude seemed to only originate from petty Fiona haters? Good to know.
I honestly not surprised anymore, after seeing people hating on Clementine or Ellie from the last of us (that's not to mention how much people seems to dislike and hate the whole LIS's "cast" for the most ridiculous reasons). For every character no matter how awesome or horrible he/she is there will be a hater somewhere. The usual stuff.
People have actively been trying to make Fiona look like an objectively badly written character and maybe I will "dial" back if you actually come with legitimate reasons instead of petty ones that can easily be defended.
As far as I know people have been commenting on their dislike of a fictional character, and in response those who disagreed did so by making… more personal attacks on their character. I would suggest you dial back the ad hominem attacks on people for having a difference of opinion. It revels more about your character than the fictional one being debated about.
she and her family dangled him out of a speeding car without apology.
Yep, must have forgot that as well.
Rhys and Vaughn are Hyperion, so to Fiona and her family, they can't be trusted, and stealing their caravan is wrong to them on Pandora which isn't a place where "nice people" live. Compared to everyone else on Pandora, I'd say Fiona and Sasha are the most generous of "bad people"
I find Fiona to be fun, interesting, tough, charismatic, sympathetic, and well written. I'm not someone who completely warps their perception and tries to make her look like an evil character and make Rhys look like a puppy dog.
But of course, EVERYTHING I've defended and stated about Fiona is going to go over your delusional head and put it into a negative perspective considering that's all you do.
I'm done with this and hopefully Telltale will eventually change your mind or maybe they'll change her character completely to appease your drivel standards, but whatever.
"She's just super awesome becuz, and he's just a punching bag for comic relief!" is basically what you said. I don't see how that clarifies … moreanything, nor what I'm supposed to do with it.
Ah, of course, what am I thinking, putting the attempt to painfully kill two defenseless men because they tried to escape in your ride and your wanton abuse of a guy who doesn't defend himself just because of your grudge into a negative perspective? Silly me. I didn't mean to make it sound like those aren't nice things to do. I must be seriously warped by my hatred of Fiona to see them as anything but perfectly proper for a resourceful young lady looking to make it in the world. So good of you to put me straight on that. Those things are obviously justified because... why was it again?
When did I ever ask anything about apologies? What gave you that impression? Please point me to the statement that convinced you that I want Fiona and Sasha to apologize … [view original content]
I honestly not surprised anymore, after seeing people hating on Clementine or Ellie from the last of us (that's not to mention how much peop… morele seems to dislike and hate the whole LIS's "cast" for the most ridiculous reasons). For every character no matter how awesome or horrible he/she is there will be a hater somewhere. The usual stuff.
Yep, that was my exact reaction. You can see it for yourself in "VG characters you hate the most?" in telltale talk section, but I'm not sure it's worth reading.
And based on that you think that what I want out of the game is for Fiona and Sasha to just stand up and apologize for their behavior out of nowhere, ignoring literally everything else I've said for two days? I'm speechless.
I agree, Fiona and Sasha aren't bad sorts by Pandoran standards and with ten million dollars up in the air there are few things I would put past anyone. Almost throwing two defenseless men out of a moving car just to save bullets is cold, ruthless and stupidly vindictive behavior no matter how you look at it though, and your miraculous refusal to see that and acknowledge that part of her character and the fact that other characters should acknowledge it as well baffles me.
I'd call that a shallow character description, but maybe that's because you're on your way out and can't be bothered to actually make your case. Ah, well.
she and her family dangled him out of a speeding car without apology.
Yep, must have forgot that as well.
Rhys and Vaughn are Hyp… moreerion, so to Fiona and her family, they can't be trusted, and stealing their caravan is wrong to them on Pandora which isn't a place where "nice people" live. Compared to everyone else on Pandora, I'd say Fiona and Sasha are the most generous of "bad people"
I find Fiona to be fun, interesting, tough, charismatic, sympathetic, and well written. I'm not someone who completely warps their perception and tries to make her look like an evil character and make Rhys look like a puppy dog.
But of course, EVERYTHING I've defended and stated about Fiona is going to go over your delusional head and put it into a negative perspective considering that's all you do.
I'm done with this and hopefully Telltale will eventually change your mind or maybe they'll change her character completely to appease your drivel standards, but whatever.
Yep, that was my exact reaction. You can see it for yourself in "VG characters you hate the most?" in telltale talk section, but I'm not sure it's worth reading.
Hmm. I happen to love both Clementine and Ellie. There hasn't been a single Telltale character I've had a major problem with until Fiona, no matter how despicable, pathetic or silly they were, because of superb writing, and Fiona rubs me entirely the wrong way because of a very conspicuous lack of it - in my opinion. And everyone here who also dislikes her, and isn't here to whine about stupid haters who are daring not to admire a female character(gasp, I know!), seems to be on pretty much the same page as to why.
No offense, but that seems to me like we have a valid, consistent problem with her that for whatever reason doesn't apply to you, so if you'd be so kind as to stop your "haters gonna hate" and "male gamers just can't stand strong, independent female characters" spiels I'd be very much obliged. We get it, you don't think anyone could possibly have a genuine problem with this character and that anyone who thinks they do is just a sexist or a hater. Your two cents are very much appreciated. There's no need to keep banging on it.
I honestly not surprised anymore, after seeing people hating on Clementine or Ellie from the last of us (that's not to mention how much peop… morele seems to dislike and hate the whole LIS's "cast" for the most ridiculous reasons). For every character no matter how awesome or horrible he/she is there will be a hater somewhere. The usual stuff.
For Ellie it's the standard - "annoying (that lovely word again! I'm starting to hate it), rude, brash, swears too much for someone that age". So yep, pretty much what you said.
For Clem there's no real explanation, but I guess it's the same since that person said (mind you, those are two different persons) "season 2 Clementine". So basically, people yet again can't stand girls with balls if they're not innocent little cutie pies - and boom, gtfo, we don't like you because you're not a kid anymore. And I really like that when I said that people treat kids (and especially girls because they're just all about "protect me I'm so cute and sweet") differently people in the previous thread were playing dumb and were like "but no, neither gender nor their age has an impact on whether we like them or not, how dare you assume"! Well, maybe not for 'you', but it does. It just does.
People have been actively pointing out horrible things that Fiona has actually actively done. If you want to ignore and insult everyone and swear up and down that she's done nothing morally reprehensible and deserves no karmic backlash whatsoever then that's your deal, but don't act like we're the delusional ones.
People have actively been trying to make Fiona look like an objectively badly written character and maybe I will "dial" back if you actually come with legitimate reasons instead of petty ones that can easily be defended.
Well we also get you and the others who dislike Fiona, so peace. I still have a right to say what I think tho, especially since well, I wasn't even talking to you (and this conversation just happens to be in this thread).
Hmm. I happen to love both Clementine and Ellie. There hasn't been a single Telltale character I've had a major problem with until Fiona, no… more matter how despicable, pathetic or silly they were, because of superb writing, and Fiona rubs me entirely the wrong way because of a very conspicuous lack of it - in my opinion. And everyone here who also dislikes her, and isn't here to whine about stupid haters who are daring not to admire a female character(gasp, I know!), seems to be on pretty much the same page as to why.
No offense, but that seems to me like we have a valid, consistent problem with her that for whatever reason doesn't apply to you, so if you'd be so kind as to stop your "haters gonna hate" and "male gamers just can't stand strong, independent female characters" spiels I'd be very much obliged. We get it, you don't think anyone could possibly have a genuine problem with this character and that anyone who thinks they do is just a s… [view original content]
they.. do they know in wich worlds these games play? pardon princess for girls in a world full of zombies and people who want to kill them don't say sorry and please. and yeah I agree, as much as people say 'nuh it nut bout gendur or age' in most cases it is.
For Ellie it's the standard - "annoying (that lovely word again! I'm starting to hate it), rude, brash, swears too much for someone that age… more". So yep, pretty much what you said.
For Clem there's no real explanation, but I guess it's the same since that person said (mind you, those are two different persons) "season 2 Clementine". So basically, people yet again can't stand girls with balls if they're not innocent little cutie pies - and boom, gtfo, we don't like you because you're not a kid anymore. And I really like that when I said that people treat kids (and especially girls because they're just all about "protect me I'm so cute and sweet") differently people in the previous thread were playing dumb and were like "but no, neither gender nor their age has an impact on whether we like them or not, how dare you assume"! Well, maybe not for 'you', but it does. It just does.
they.. do they know in wich worlds these games play? pardon princess for girls in a world full of zombies and people who want to kill them d… moreon't say sorry and please. and yeah I agree, as much as people say 'nuh it nut bout gendur or age' in most cases it is.
Not so much refusal as much I understand where the character is coming from and don't warp my perspective because I personally have a distaste for her character plus I know she's not supposed to be a compassionate character so I'm not a petty hater.
But, whatever your delusional mind wants to think.
And based on that you think that what I want out of the game is for Fiona and Sasha to just stand up and apologize for their behavior out of… more nowhere, ignoring literally everything else I've said for two days? I'm speechless.
I agree, Fiona and Sasha aren't bad sorts by Pandoran standards and with ten million dollars up in the air there are few things I would put past anyone. Almost throwing two defenseless men out of a moving car just to save bullets is cold, ruthless and stupidly vindictive behavior no matter how you look at it though, and your miraculous refusal to see that and acknowledge that part of her character and the fact that other characters should acknowledge it as well baffles me.
I'd call that a shallow character description, but maybe that's because you're on your way out and can't be bothered to actually make your case. Ah, well.
Good luck to you.
Horrible things that aren't necessarily morally reprehensible but are understandable given the situation and the player has control of her behavior anyway, so this pointing out is just petty haters personally getting annoyed with a character they personally don't like.
People have been actively pointing out horrible things that Fiona has actually actively done. If you want to ignore and insult everyone and … moreswear up and down that she's done nothing morally reprehensible and deserves no karmic backlash whatsoever then that's your deal, but don't act like we're the delusional ones.
Ok, I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion, because it's a bit too hostile for my tastes, but 'horrible things that aren't necessarily morally reprehensible'? Wait, what? That sounds like something one'd attribute to a well-intentioned extremist, not a greedy grifter. I'm not someone who vilifies Fiona (honestly, I'm a Sasha hater :P) but all the bad things she does are basically for her own benefit... And a lot of the actions she - and Sasha - commit that people take offence to are not player-controllable, like the whole spit-on-and-punch-Rhys, try to kill him and Vaughn, or just leave them in the desert. They happen no matter what you choose, so they make up a part of Fiona's and Sasha's personalities.
Horrible things that aren't necessarily morally reprehensible but are understandable given the situation and the player has control of her b… moreehavior anyway, so this pointing out is just petty haters personally getting annoyed with a character they personally don't like.
And if someone tries to steal my car trying to escape me and my mafia buddies, oh boy, I'll kick them out on the road going at sixty miles an hour, that'll teach them! Maybe my family and friends and the police will ignore it if I just act cool, like Fiona!
You're taking it all way too seriously. It should be less about real people and real world. Cause it isn't real world and real people.
Why are you yammering on about apologies? What does that have to do with anything? If I'm asking for anything, it's for her to be treated like the character she is. All I'm saying is that some people, myself included, would maybe like her a little more if she actually got hurt or messed up a little more often
"I think I would've liked her more if we could just abuse her a little too. Why can't we just abuse her a little? No one has a right to be cool when the other pc is "pathetic". They're both have to be pathetic. Cause...Justice I guess." And you're wondering why this approach is seen as unhealthy?
That's not how it works in real life either. Many people don't deserve what they get and many people don't get what they deserve. So if you want realism and take it that seriously, you should be fine with it,no? Even if it doesn't make you like her. Although I guess at this point it's just neverending arguing...
You seem to confuse "take out of context" with "put in perspective". What, beating the shit out of someone and treating them like trash is o… morekay just because you're angry? I didn't know that. Next time somebody cuts in front of me at the supermarket, or cheats me out of money, or maybe fouls my relationship with my sister, I'll give them a black eye. If they spill milk on my shoes, I think I'll spit on them too. And if someone tries to steal my car trying to escape me and my mafia buddies, oh boy, I'll kick them out on the road going at sixty miles an hour, that'll teach them! Maybe my family and friends and the police will ignore it if I just act cool, like Fiona!
Why are you yammering on about apologies? What does that have to do with anything? If I'm asking for anything, it's for her to be treated like the character she is. All I'm saying is that some people, myself included, would maybe like her a little more if she actually got hurt or… [view original content]
I don't want some kind of ultra-realism, I want a compelling narrative which it's my impression that the game is supposed to be. Fiona getting through the story scot-free in spite of her horrible behavior which is inexplicably never brought back up or reacted to by other characters who would and should care while Rhys is beaten to a pulp every damn episode and no-one lets him get away with anything isn't a statement on the unfairness of real life, it's sucky, inconsistent writing that disrupts an otherwise consistent game.
What is your problem with the idea of Fiona actually being treated like someone who's willing to throw defenseless people off speeding cars to save bullets and takes her anger out on people by spitting and beating on them? She clearly is!
Don't act like me wanting Fiona to be treated as her actual character instead of being an ostensibly perfect Mary Sue is the same thing as me wanting to see her abused for my own amusement, that's pretty insulting.
And if someone tries to steal my car trying to escape me and my mafia buddies, oh boy, I'll kick them out on the road going at sixty miles a… moren hour, that'll teach them! Maybe my family and friends and the police will ignore it if I just act cool, like Fiona!
You're taking it all way too seriously. It should be less about real people and real world. Cause it isn't real world and real people.
Why are you yammering on about apologies? What does that have to do with anything? If I'm asking for anything, it's for her to be treated like the character she is. All I'm saying is that some people, myself included, would maybe like her a little more if she actually got hurt or messed up a little more often
"I think I would've liked her more if we could just abuse her a little too. Why can't we just abuse her a little? No one has a right to be cool when the other pc is "pathetic". They're both have to be pathetic. Cause...Justice I g… [view original content]
Not so much refusal as much I understand where the character is coming from and don't warp my perspective because I personally have a distas… morete for her character plus I know she's not supposed to be a compassionate character so I'm not a petty hater.
But, whatever your delusional mind wants to think.
Bye.
I don't really like the characters only because they don't really have any flavor to their personalities they are just too generic to me. I mean why did we love Kenny, Lee, Rodrick, Asher, or Clementine? It was because they were badasses and we could connect to them, Rhys and Fiona we cannot because they don't really have much personality that we connect to.
I don't really like the characters only because they don't really have any flavor to their personalities they are just too generic to me. I … moremean why did we love Kenny, Lee, Rodrick, Asher, or Clementine? It was because they were badasses and we could connect to them, Rhys and Fiona we cannot because they don't really have much personality that we connect to.
I don't really like the characters only because they don't really have any flavor to their personalities they are just too generic to me. I … moremean why did we love Kenny, Lee, Rodrick, Asher, or Clementine? It was because they were badasses and we could connect to them, Rhys and Fiona we cannot because they don't really have much personality that we connect to.
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I like her:)
Now you're missing the point. Nobody wants them to be nice, the problem is that Fiona really is acting like a bitch in the framing device regardless of what, if anything, may come to "justify" it, and is otherwise not demonstrably a better or more moral person than Rhys, and so deserves at least the same karmic backlash (from a meta-plot viewpoint) that he does for his behavior.
But what we get is Rhys getting by far the shorter end of the stick, falling off ledges and getting thrown off cars and consistently getting the crap physically and verbally beaten out of him, including in the framing device, by Fiona, while she rarely gets hurt at all, even when she really, really should. All I'm saying is that this might contribute to some players giving Rhys a little more slack than Fiona, even if it's supposed to be for comedy.
And I am not "grossly exaggerating" what happens in the present day. What I say is exactly what I've observed. Maybe you didn't notice as much because you just got quickly used to seeing everything bad happen to Rhys.
I'd like to point out that you've called my "thinking" stupid once and my "reasons" petty twice apparently without knowing jack shit about either. Is this how you normally argue?
It had been months since I'd played the first episode when I wrote the OP and the first few replies. Having played the game over again, I've discovered that my problem with her is that she's pretentious, inconsistent and that nobody calls her out on anything. Translation: She's badly written. Guess that happens to female characters too. Who knew?
Yes, you're asking for Fiona to apologize for EVERY SINGLE "rude" thing you think she does and it's dumb as that's not who her character is, so you are asking for Fiona to be a 100% nice person.
Rhys getting the short end of the stick is just there for easy comedy, he's the wimpy, Hyperion punching bag and Fiona is the tough as nails Pandoran, so Rhys getting all this abuse is just there to make the audience laugh at his misery, if that happened to Fiona then she would be a completely different character from the way Telltale wrote her.
Yes, judging from you've stated your reasons are petty and taken out of context and your thought process of not even taking from what I've defended about Fiona into account namely the fact you forgot that Fiona can save Vaughn twice in episode 1.
I'm not asking for anything, I'm just pointing out the difference between Rhys' treatment and Fiona's, and how that might be affecting some opinions, my own included.
I don't always laugh at Rhys' misery, and even when I do I still think he deserves some slack for it. Slack that Fiona doesn't deserve because she's inexplicably written as 'totally fabulous' and barely a hair on her head is ever harmed in comparison. Which is what I have a problem with, hence the hate-thread. Rhys getting the crap beaten out of him for laughs obviously doesn't impact you in the slightest, and you somehow find Fiona's character balanced and well-written. Or whatever. Good for you, but that's not how everybody feels.
Okay, first off, you've consistently mistaken and misinterpreted my "reasons" and "thinking", so no offense but I don't think anyone considers you an authority. And second, Fiona can help Vaugh once(notice that he comes out of it just fine in any case) and warn him another time after she herself puts him in danger with the crane, and I have in fact taken that into account, and I still don't think it balances out.
What an odd thread. And it's been posted before . Fiona is great . Sasha on the other hand ..
How exactly is Fiona badly written if you personally don't like her? Get that logic out of here.
All I see from your arguments is "I'll take everything out of context, misinterpret, and make Fiona look like a stone cold bitch." Don't give me this shit that you're not asking anything from Fiona since you're complaining for the pettiest reasons that she's not apologizing for everything.
Yeah, I SOMEHOW find Fiona to be well-written character because I don't go on and complain for the stupidest reasons and completely misunderstand her character.
Because she is lacking the parts of her personality that would garner a greater amount of empathy from more people. This has been covered before, but she is arrogant but doesn't suffer the foibles that Rhys suffers that makes him likable and more human in his character. Fiona is close to being a Mary Sue, she acts out over confidence and arrogance and never suffers from any blow back from it. It never get her in trouble, it never causes issues in relationships, and her actions are immediately forgiven and forgotten while other characters mistakes are brought up over and over gain.
.
What you said.
You seem to confuse "take out of context" with "put in perspective". What, beating the shit out of someone and treating them like trash is okay just because you're angry? I didn't know that. Next time somebody cuts in front of me at the supermarket, or cheats me out of money, or maybe fouls my relationship with my sister, I'll give them a black eye. If they spill milk on my shoes, I think I'll spit on them too. And if someone tries to steal my car trying to escape me and my mafia buddies, oh boy, I'll kick them out on the road going at sixty miles an hour, that'll teach them! Maybe my family and friends and the police will ignore it if I just act cool, like Fiona!
Why are you yammering on about apologies? What does that have to do with anything? If I'm asking for anything, it's for her to be treated like the character she is. All I'm saying is that some people, myself included, would maybe like her a little more if she actually got hurt or messed up a little more often, or was called out on being so pretentious and vindictive every once in a while. But no, she never suffers the slightest backlash for her behavior, unlike Rhys, and is for some reason treated as the calm, rational face of the group despite acting like a clown and being disproportionally violent in equal measures. Call me crazy, but I don't find that particularly endearing in a character. Obviously you do, congratulations.
Oh, so the problem is that I've completely misunderstood her character? Well then, why don't you stop your stupid, petty, pathetic, narrow-minded insults and explain what I missed so badly? How do you see Fiona? In detail, please, so we can see exactly why your idea of her is so much more consistent and objective than mine.
So for someone to not be a Mary sue they have to be beaten 24:7 or called out on their "bitchy" attitude even though this "bitchy" attitude seemed to only originate from petty Fiona haters? Good to know.
I've already explained as to why Fiona and Rhys are written the way they are which you've seemed to have completely ignored again. I doubt I'm confusing anything as you ARE taking everything Fiona does out of context and putting into your own negative perspective on it because you personally don't like Fiona. The reasons I'm yammering on apologizes is because you are asking for Fiona to apologize for everything "rude" she does including Sasha which is stupid thinking.
And your problem with Fiona really just seems to be your own negative perception rather than the writing itself so Fiona getting called out isn't really going to happen the way you want it to since what you're whining about is of your own creation.
You also still haven't done any of that "hard work" I told you to look into to try to get me to understand your perspective because right now, you look like a whining child complaining for the pettiest reasons.
"She's just super awesome becuz, and he's just a punching bag for comic relief!" is basically what you said. I don't see how that clarifies anything, nor what I'm supposed to do with it.
Ah, of course, what am I thinking, putting the attempt to painfully kill two defenseless men because they tried to escape in your ride and your wanton abuse of a guy who doesn't defend himself just because of your grudge into a negative perspective? Silly me. I didn't mean to make it sound like those aren't nice things to do. I must be seriously warped by my hatred of Fiona to see them as anything but perfectly proper for a resourceful young lady looking to make it in the world. So good of you to put me straight on that. Those things are obviously justified because... why was it again?
When did I ever ask anything about apologies? What gave you that impression? Please point me to the statement that convinced you that I want Fiona and Sasha to apologize for their behavior? What I want is for other characters, and the narrative for that matter, to acknowledge that Fiona a: is pretty nasty sometimes, b: isn't actually doing anything to back up that 'classy lady rogue' image she apparently has going for her, and c: is rained on like everybody else. Brick punching her in the face helps a bit on c, but that's not enough for me to empathize with her as an actual character and not a two-dimensional Mary Sue that Telltale shoe-horned into an otherwise pretty good story with otherwise pretty good characters.
I'm not going to sit through 7-8 hours of walkthroughs to document every single one of Fiona's objectionable moments just to convince you that she isn't goddam perfect and shouldn't be treated as such. For one thing we've already drawn up the major ones and you seem to think that stating what she actually does is the same as taking it out of context, a magical context that somehow justifies everything, as far as you're concerned.
We've been debating my perspective for two days now, and you're obviously not impressed. Let's talk about yours, shall we? Explain Fiona's character to me, and we'll see how much sense your idea of her makes. Maybe it'll change my mind and I'll replay the game paying attention to her character as you outline it, and find that it actually fits, and suddenly she won't be such a horrible eyesore in my awesome Borderlands game. I'd like that, I really would.
Nobody said anything about her getting beaten 24:7, but an unreasonable amount of luck and skill that she doesn't deserve compared to other characters is pretty Mary Sue, yeah. And being morally reinforced by the narrative and other characters despite actions that are actually pretty horrible in perspective and a bitchy attitude that is very much manifest, thank you very much, is also pretty Mary Sue. Good thing we got that all cleared up, huh?
By the way, ever heard of a straw man argument?
I don't get the hate for Fiona
I love her sarcasam and I think Laura Bailey is doing a fantastic job
As far as I know people have been commenting on their dislike of a fictional character, and in response those who disagreed did so by making personal attacks on their character. I would suggest you dial back the ad hominem attacks on people for having a difference of opinion. It revels more about your character than the fictional one being debated about.
I honestly not surprised anymore, after seeing people hating on Clementine or Ellie from the last of us (that's not to mention how much people seems to dislike and hate the whole LIS's "cast" for the most ridiculous reasons). For every character no matter how awesome or horrible he/she is there will be a hater somewhere. The usual stuff.
People have actively been trying to make Fiona look like an objectively badly written character and maybe I will "dial" back if you actually come with legitimate reasons instead of petty ones that can easily be defended.
Yep, must have forgot that as well.
Rhys and Vaughn are Hyperion, so to Fiona and her family, they can't be trusted, and stealing their caravan is wrong to them on Pandora which isn't a place where "nice people" live. Compared to everyone else on Pandora, I'd say Fiona and Sasha are the most generous of "bad people"
I find Fiona to be fun, interesting, tough, charismatic, sympathetic, and well written. I'm not someone who completely warps their perception and tries to make her look like an evil character and make Rhys look like a puppy dog.
But of course, EVERYTHING I've defended and stated about Fiona is going to go over your delusional head and put it into a negative perspective considering that's all you do.
I'm done with this and hopefully Telltale will eventually change your mind or maybe they'll change her character completely to appease your drivel standards, but whatever.
whaaaaaat?!
Yep, that was my exact reaction. You can see it for yourself in "VG characters you hate the most?" in telltale talk section, but I'm not sure it's worth reading.
And based on that you think that what I want out of the game is for Fiona and Sasha to just stand up and apologize for their behavior out of nowhere, ignoring literally everything else I've said for two days? I'm speechless.
I agree, Fiona and Sasha aren't bad sorts by Pandoran standards and with ten million dollars up in the air there are few things I would put past anyone. Almost throwing two defenseless men out of a moving car just to save bullets is cold, ruthless and stupidly vindictive behavior no matter how you look at it though, and your miraculous refusal to see that and acknowledge that part of her character and the fact that other characters should acknowledge it as well baffles me.
I'd call that a shallow character description, but maybe that's because you're on your way out and can't be bothered to actually make your case. Ah, well.
Good luck to you.
any valid reason? or people just annoyed that these girls have bigger balls than they will ever have?
Hmm. I happen to love both Clementine and Ellie. There hasn't been a single Telltale character I've had a major problem with until Fiona, no matter how despicable, pathetic or silly they were, because of superb writing, and Fiona rubs me entirely the wrong way because of a very conspicuous lack of it - in my opinion. And everyone here who also dislikes her, and isn't here to whine about stupid haters who are daring not to admire a female character(gasp, I know!), seems to be on pretty much the same page as to why.
No offense, but that seems to me like we have a valid, consistent problem with her that for whatever reason doesn't apply to you, so if you'd be so kind as to stop your "haters gonna hate" and "male gamers just can't stand strong, independent female characters" spiels I'd be very much obliged. We get it, you don't think anyone could possibly have a genuine problem with this character and that anyone who thinks they do is just a sexist or a hater. Your two cents are very much appreciated. There's no need to keep banging on it.
For Ellie it's the standard - "annoying (that lovely word again! I'm starting to hate it), rude, brash, swears too much for someone that age". So yep, pretty much what you said.
For Clem there's no real explanation, but I guess it's the same since that person said (mind you, those are two different persons) "season 2 Clementine". So basically, people yet again can't stand girls with balls if they're not innocent little cutie pies - and boom, gtfo, we don't like you because you're not a kid anymore. And I really like that when I said that people treat kids (and especially girls because they're just all about "protect me I'm so cute and sweet") differently people in the previous thread were playing dumb and were like "but no, neither gender nor their age has an impact on whether we like them or not, how dare you assume"! Well, maybe not for 'you', but it does. It just does.
People have been actively pointing out horrible things that Fiona has actually actively done. If you want to ignore and insult everyone and swear up and down that she's done nothing morally reprehensible and deserves no karmic backlash whatsoever then that's your deal, but don't act like we're the delusional ones.
Well we also get you and the others who dislike Fiona, so peace. I still have a right to say what I think tho, especially since well, I wasn't even talking to you (and this conversation just happens to be in this thread).
they.. do they know in wich worlds these games play? pardon princess for girls in a world full of zombies and people who want to kill them don't say sorry and please. and yeah I agree, as much as people say 'nuh it nut bout gendur or age' in most cases it is.
Of course they do. They've played those games.
I like how sometimes she tries to be smooth but kinda fails sometimes, like Rhys I guess but Rhys is much more obvious.
Not so much refusal as much I understand where the character is coming from and don't warp my perspective because I personally have a distaste for her character plus I know she's not supposed to be a compassionate character so I'm not a petty hater.
But, whatever your delusional mind wants to think.
Bye.
Horrible things that aren't necessarily morally reprehensible but are understandable given the situation and the player has control of her behavior anyway, so this pointing out is just petty haters personally getting annoyed with a character they personally don't like.
Ok, I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion, because it's a bit too hostile for my tastes, but 'horrible things that aren't necessarily morally reprehensible'? Wait, what? That sounds like something one'd attribute to a well-intentioned extremist, not a greedy grifter. I'm not someone who vilifies Fiona (honestly, I'm a Sasha hater :P) but all the bad things she does are basically for her own benefit... And a lot of the actions she - and Sasha - commit that people take offence to are not player-controllable, like the whole spit-on-and-punch-Rhys, try to kill him and Vaughn, or just leave them in the desert. They happen no matter what you choose, so they make up a part of Fiona's and Sasha's personalities.
You're taking it all way too seriously. It should be less about real people and real world. Cause it isn't real world and real people.
"I think I would've liked her more if we could just abuse her a little too. Why can't we just abuse her a little? No one has a right to be cool when the other pc is "pathetic". They're both have to be pathetic. Cause...Justice I guess." And you're wondering why this approach is seen as unhealthy?
That's not how it works in real life either. Many people don't deserve what they get and many people don't get what they deserve. So if you want realism and take it that seriously, you should be fine with it,no? Even if it doesn't make you like her. Although I guess at this point it's just neverending arguing...
I don't want some kind of ultra-realism, I want a compelling narrative which it's my impression that the game is supposed to be. Fiona getting through the story scot-free in spite of her horrible behavior which is inexplicably never brought back up or reacted to by other characters who would and should care while Rhys is beaten to a pulp every damn episode and no-one lets him get away with anything isn't a statement on the unfairness of real life, it's sucky, inconsistent writing that disrupts an otherwise consistent game.
What is your problem with the idea of Fiona actually being treated like someone who's willing to throw defenseless people off speeding cars to save bullets and takes her anger out on people by spitting and beating on them? She clearly is!
Don't act like me wanting Fiona to be treated as her actual character instead of being an ostensibly perfect Mary Sue is the same thing as me wanting to see her abused for my own amusement, that's pretty insulting.
As you say, buddy.
I don't really like the characters only because they don't really have any flavor to their personalities they are just too generic to me. I mean why did we love Kenny, Lee, Rodrick, Asher, or Clementine? It was because they were badasses and we could connect to them, Rhys and Fiona we cannot because they don't really have much personality that we connect to.
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