I use the term 'forever' sarcastically, it's highly unlikely this will last for infinity, just saying. I'm just trying to keep this from dragging on. And to be fair, why shouldn't I, if I can defend him, I will do so?
So he got Alvin and Clem, and they got to Wellington, yes he did get what he wanted, he was happy. Maybe he didn't care what others wanted, but only because he thought Wellington was the definite answer to their problems, not Howe's or Mexico.
I don't think he was irrational 95% of the time. What? He wanted to escape Howe's when everyone was quite comfy there. What? He wanted to look after the baby, considering no-one else knew what to do. What? He wanted to shoot a threat on the spot as they had no way of looking after themselves, never mind a prisoner who had just attacked them.
No. It was understandable that Kenny was pissed and wanted to shout at someone. I don't agree with him shouting at Clem, but combining the two facts together, I can understand how that came about. And when could he apologise? Ep4 he was still pissed and making sure the baby was looked after. He apologised the first chance he got to properly sit down and explain.
Okay, I can agree on that (Mike + Bonnie's reasoning)
And haven't we all got different games really? The game I had, Kenny wasn't a 'bag of dicks' most of the time, because I didn't treat him like a 'bag of dicks' most of the time.
I guess I can't say Arvo? Jane, had no loyalty to the group, and only came back because Clem was a surrogate sister now of hers, funny how she complained about killing the Russian guy, yet never cared about Sarah or Nick. Bonnie as we know was a compulsive liar, she brought the group to Howe's in the first place, then she blamed Clem for Luke's death (seem familiar?). I don't know enough about Mike, other than he preferred the prisoner to his own group, and didn't care for the latter's wellbeing. Luke is the only one who really avoids any flak, bit careless sometimes, but nothing which puts him in the 'worst' category. Kenny? Yeah he had faults, as the others, his looked worse as the group turned against him
I had a response to this, but I clicked refresh. So, I'm just going to sum up what I said quickly.
I'll just conclude this because thi… mores can go on for ever.
It really can't, you're just pulling out everything you can to defend him.
Yes he can't be fixed, but he can be patched over to a degree, where he is happy, the Kenny endings show this, he's smiling and he's happy and he's joking.
He's only happy because he got what he wanted in the end. He spoke irrationally about it back at the unfinished house, not caring what others wanted.
Yes he has a temper, but sometimes this temper isn't at all irrational
What do you mean sometimes? It was irrational 95% of the time.
Kenny was wrong to shout at Clementine (and that's a normal at this time) but his reason for being pissed wasn't all that hard to understand.
You're kidding, right? So, you think Kenny blaming Clementine for "killing Sarita" (whi… [view original content]
but only because he thought Wellington was the definite answer to their problems, not Howe's or Mexico.
For all Kenny knew, Wellington could have already fallen. Wellington might not have even existed. They knew for certain a place with food and electricity, yet he wanted to go and run to something that might not even be real or even good. He knew shit all about the people in Wellington and even wants Clementine and AJ to stay there????
Also, Mexico was a joke idea from Clem. Mike wanted to go to Texas. It's not that relevant, honestly, but I thought I should just say it.
I don't think he was irrational 95% of the time. What? He wanted to escape Howe's when everyone was quite comfy there.
I'm sorry, what? Are you trying to tell me that the people who didn't want to risk losing more people or even being caught were comfy at Howe's? Usually shit like this makes me want to quit debating while I'm ahead, but I just really want your reasoning as to why the hell you'd even think such fuckery.
He wanted to look after the baby, considering no-one else knew what to do.
Clarify, please? I'm not sure what part you're talking about. Because if you're talking about no one knowing what to do when Rebecca went into labour, then that's a completely different thing than taking care of a baby.
He wanted to shoot a threat on the spot
Oh, please. Do people actually still think that immediately after the shootout, Arvo, who was unarmed, scared, traumatized from watching his sister die, reanimate, then die again, and looks to be weaker than everyone in the group besides Clem and AJ, was an actual threat? He freaking coward behind Luke and Mike when a gun was pointed at him. Sure, they almost died because he lead his group to them, but he wasn't looking for a shoot out. He and his group wanted supplies. When Arvo realizes the group has a baby, he actually tells his group to put the guns down (translated from Russian). Remember how I said Kenny brought the bad out in people? Which is clearly evident all through the season? Arvo shooting Clementine was one of those cases.
never mind a prisoner who had just attacked them.
He didn't even have a gun. It was indirect.
No. It was understandable that Kenny was pissed and wanted to shout at someone. I don't agree with him shouting at Clem, but combining the two facts together, I can understand how that came about.
I honestly can't understand, so we'll agree to disagree on that one.
Ep4 he was still pissed and making sure the baby was looked after.
There are plenty of people in the group who could have looked after AJ for a few minutes. It's not like Kenny had the baby glued to him. When the baby was born, they had an option to stay there for a couple of days or head out first thing in the morning. Either option, there's enough time in both for Kenny to apologize. Even traveling after that (before they run into Arvo) he could have pulled back a little with Clem and apologized. On the walk to Arvo's before their first stop. When they actually stopped and she cleaned out his wound. The walk onwards. There were multiple opportunities for him to apologize yet he waited a few days. The fact that he even yelled at her and told her it was her fault Sarita died would fucking scar her. She even blames herself for Lee's death, Omid's death, and now Kenny wanted to put the blame on someone who was innocent?
Kenny wasn't a 'bag of dicks' most of the time, because I didn't treat him like a 'bag of dicks' most of the time.
The only way Kenny doesn't act like a bag of dicks most of the time is if you agree with him and basically kiss his ass. Sure, people could think that Kenny's idea of going to Wellington would be something they'd like, I did too, but if you disagree with him, he hates it. And mind you, Kenny flips his shit at you no matter what choice you make with Sarita. Also, about Sarita, he was even irrational with her. Wouldn't let her put away a simple box, spoke rudely and ill-mannered to her at many times. Which she called him out for.
Jane, had no loyalty to the group, and only came back because Clem was a surrogate sister now of hers,
Couldn't we say the same for Kenny? Kenny at first didn't seem to care about the group, wanting to keep Clem at the lodge with him because she was a reminder of Duck. He argued against (before giving in) Luke's more safer plan to get out of Howe's despite everyone else advocating it. He didn't want to stay at the observation deck for Rebecca to rest because he wanted to get to the town. Kenny did begin to care for the group or at least some group members, like how he regretted leaving Alvin at Howe's (if you saved him in Ep 2). I'm sure there's a few more, but I can't remember any. But don't forget, Kenny has always been a man to look out for his own. He's shown even in Season 1 how much he had to protect his family, no matter the cost.
funny how she complained about killing the Russian guy, yet never cared about Sarah or Nick.
Firstly, she barely knew Nick. He turned before she and Clem could even get there, so I don't see how she needed to feel remorseful for telling Clem to put him out of his misery? Or how it's even her fault?
Secondly, I agree with the Sarah stance. I didn't like that at all how she'd leave a traumatized girl to be mauled to death and say "it's the right thing to do" yet show sympathy over a man who was trying to kill the people who brought her in.
Bonnie as we know was a compulsive liar
That's arguable.
Bonnie only lied once. She didn't betray us since she didn't make any sort of commitment or even a bond with Walt, Clem, or Kenny. She didn't lie after that. In 400 Days, since we control her, we have the option to lie to Leeland or not.
But she did betray us.
she brought the group to Howe's in the first place
No she didn't? Carver could have sent any one of his guards up to the lodge to do what Bonnie did. Carver was coming after the group with the help of his associates. It wasn't Bonnie's idea to bring them back, it was Carver's.
then she blamed Clem for Luke's death (seem familiar?)
You do realize that Sarita had no chance of surviving, right? Luke did. Because if Bonnie and Clem could somehow make it out of that lake, then so could Luke. It was just bad luck that a walker pulled him down had you chosen to listen to Bonnie. But that's why she's mad, actually. If you cover Luke, she's mad that you didn't listen to her, thinking that her idea would have saved Luke. Of course, there's also the implication that Bonnie and Luke had a thing, which is probably another reason she lashed out at Clementine. But again, like Sarita's situation, there wasn't much a little girl could do. In fact, Bonnie and Clem both should have left Luke to get himself out of there. Whether he had to crawl or let himself go into the water in order to get back out, Bonnie's idea of trying to pull Luke out wasn't just going to work in the first place. And Bonnie's reasoning is much more understandable (thinking her idea would have worked) than Kenny's, but at the same time, both inexcusable for yelling at a little girl who did what she thought was right.
I don't know enough about Mike, other than he preferred the prisoner to his own group
Uh, he preferred to get away from Kenny rather than watch him beat up a defenseless teenager countless times. It wasn't a betrayal to Kenny, it was just a betrayal to Clementine and/or Jane (depending on if either one of them would have wanted to go with them).
and didn't care for the latter's wellbeing
Yeah, taking all the supplies was a really big dick move.
Luke is the only one who really avoids any flak, bit careless sometimes, but nothing which puts him in the 'worst' category.
Luke's too much of an innocent cupcake.
Besides the fact that he does stuff in awful timing. Like trying to get food at Howe's, but getting caught. And, y'know, Jane.
Kenny? Yeah he had faults, as the others, his looked worse as the group turned against him
Kenny is the only one who can exaggerate his faults, not any of the group members. Although my hatred for Jane is up to par with my love for Luke, she did see what he was like. She just made all the wrong moves, resulting in her looking like a bad person and determinantly getting killed.
I use the term 'forever' sarcastically, it's highly unlikely this will last for infinity, just saying. I'm just trying to keep this from dra… moregging on. And to be fair, why shouldn't I, if I can defend him, I will do so?
So he got Alvin and Clem, and they got to Wellington, yes he did get what he wanted, he was happy. Maybe he didn't care what others wanted, but only because he thought Wellington was the definite answer to their problems, not Howe's or Mexico.
I don't think he was irrational 95% of the time. What? He wanted to escape Howe's when everyone was quite comfy there. What? He wanted to look after the baby, considering no-one else knew what to do. What? He wanted to shoot a threat on the spot as they had no way of looking after themselves, never mind a prisoner who had just attacked them.
No. It was understandable that Kenny was pissed and wanted to shout at someone. I don't agree with him shouting at Clem, but combining the tw… [view original content]
Mike, Bonnie and Arvo were 'secondary characters' so telltale needed to get rid of them in one fell swoop also it was really annoying because even if you don't take the drugs from Arvo, don't threaten him, are nice to him, even if you tell kenny to stop being mean to him and ask him to calm down you still end up getting shot by him and having no choice in anything (;-; )
They left for their own selfish reasons. Not that hard to understand. They had no REAL stake in this broken group. Bonnie follows Luke's lead and after his death didn't want to follow Kenny and was plain fed up with constant group relations problems. It was in her character to just up and leave, she's done it before and probably gonna do it again with Mike.
Mike is just some guy wanting to do right, enough so to get Arvo and himself away from Kenny's temper. Kenny has attacked him before and knew he was breaking. Now you may thinking that Clem is special to them, but wrong. They knew she and the baby were still alive and o.k. that was enough for them.
You really did pick apart everything I said that time... nice work! In all seriousness though, fair enough, I thought Mike said Texas THEN Mexico, my bad. And Howe's was not a confirmed safe haven, the last we saw of it, it had Carver's guards vs 1000 walkers. For all they knew, it could've been swamped with the herd. Wellington was a pretty well known legend (both Christa and Kenny had heard) No smoke without fire.
And okay, comfy was an exaggeration, what I meant was none of the others seemed to actively want to escape Howe's. Only Rebecca, and initially Luke seemed eager to get out of there. The others seemed... content, at least on the surface, I think Kenny was expecting them to all be helping his escape and thinking of a plan, when they mostly just, well, wanted to lay back and wait for Luke.
Well, I presume Rebecca knew what to do, but Kenny was the only one with experience. The others all admitted they didn't know what to do.
Right okay, Arvo hated Clem from the moment she shot his sister, I'm sure that was his way of saying 'Karma', I don't think that was Kenny's influence, and not just because I'm his defender here. But I never stole the supplies off Arvo, and as I can't shoot the S2 writers, instead Arvo comes next. It wasn't practical to keep a prisoner when they're low on supplies and had nowhere to camp, we don't know if Arvo was part of a larger group, if we let him go, could he return a 3rd time? It could be argued that Rebecca died because of the attack, maybe one of the group could have paid closer attention to her before she died, but I'll admit that's a weak point, there's nothing they could have done anyways.
He didn't have a gun... only because we took it off him before.
I think on the walk, he had to lead as he was the one who wanted to go in the first place, if he'd have walked behind talking with Clem, the others might have been turning back and whatnot, just a theory. And didn't he say something when cleaning his eye? Not the official apology, but I could've sworn he said something along the lines of being apologetic? But fair enough, he could have said it earlier, but at least he did say one. Better late than never?
Well, honestly, I agreed with Kenny on most matters, and especially on Wellington, and I'm aware he can be 'a bag of dicks' if you disagree. But he's only human, I'm sure many people here would only help people who helped them.
That's being a little unfair at the ski lodge, he had just met the people, and I think he wanted Clem to stay simply because he knew her. But by the time they were at Howe's he definitely acted for the group. And yes Kenny is a man with priorities. He's understandably (this time) someone who puts his family and cared ones first. But he'll look after the group if they look after his family and cared ones.
I'll give you Nick, as he was turned and she wasn't responsible, but not knowing him isn't an excuse, she didn't know the Russian guy either.
Well, she betrayed Walter's kindness, but she is a liar, yes Leland was determinant, but it was still a choice which she went through with flawlessly. But her actions in Ep5, especially if she liked Clem, was another example of her being a liar and not caring who to.
Yes I know Carver headed the scout party, but Bonnie was the one scouting the ski lodge, she could have said it was empty, especially considering it had a nice man called Walter and Luke, whom she liked, living in it.
And yes Sarita was a goner. Luke wasn't. But Bonnie's plan was stupid. A little girl couldn't pull a grown man out of a lake and across cracking ice. Then she ended Luke's life my walked over to him herself. While Luke could have been saved, Clem played no part in his death, just like Sarita's and Bonnie is just as wrong as Kenny is to shout at Clem, even more so as she indirectly killed Luke by stepping on the cracked ice.
Arvo was asking for it, he taunted Kenny since the gunfight.
And yeah, Luke is too good of a guy to do anything bad. Just wrong time, wrong place situations.
Alright, I don't need to start on Jane because you hate her too thank god, but her actions was out of order. She pushed and she pushed and she pushed. Then she manipulated Kenny into breaking him. That was out of order, I don't care what he did, she pushed him to that point which he wouldn't have reached normally, I can't forgive her for playing with a broken man's emotions, no matter how much you hate him, she went too far that time
I use the term 'forever' sarcastically,
No shit?
but only because he thought Wellington was the definite answer to their probl… moreems, not Howe's or Mexico.
For all Kenny knew, Wellington could have already fallen. Wellington might not have even existed. They knew for certain a place with food and electricity, yet he wanted to go and run to something that might not even be real or even good. He knew shit all about the people in Wellington and even wants Clementine and AJ to stay there????
Also, Mexico was a joke idea from Clem. Mike wanted to go to Texas. It's not that relevant, honestly, but I thought I should just say it.
I don't think he was irrational 95% of the time. What? He wanted to escape Howe's when everyone was quite comfy there.
I'm sorry, what? Are you trying to tell me that the people who didn't want to risk losing more people or even being caught were comfy at Howe's? Usually shit like this m… [view original content]
For all they knew, it could've been swamped with the herd. Wellington was a pretty well known legend (both Christa and Kenny had heard) No smoke without fire.
And for all they knew, it could have been just a rumor or someone misunderstood what it completely was. Only two people out of all the people we met had heard of Wellington, that isn't enough people to deem it a "well known legend."
what I meant was none of the others seemed to actively want to escape Howe's
Except they were? Why would they join in on conversation and even make suggestions as to how they could escape in a more safer manner if they didn't want to leave just yet? All of them wanted leave and they all did.
Well, I presume Rebecca knew what to do, but Kenny was the only one with experience. The others all admitted they didn't know what to do.
You still haven't clarified on whether you meant taking care of a baby or help give birth to a baby.
Right okay, Arvo hated Clem from the moment she shot his sister, I'm sure that was his way of saying 'Karma'. I don't think that was Kenny's influence, and not just because I'm his defender here.
That's probably another reason why he shot her, actually. But Kenny's influence was still there, it's why he was leaving in the first place. Not to mention that Kenny wanted to leave Arvo there with no supplies or anything to survive, it's understandable that Arvo didn't want that to happen. He had a hatred for Kenny, he was beat up by Kenny, and he wanted to get away from him.
It could be argued that Rebecca died because of the attack, maybe one of the group could have paid closer attention to her before she died, but I'll admit that's a weak point, there's nothing they could have done anyways.
Uh, what? Rebecca was on the brink of dying before Arvo even made his way up to them. She was done for whether or not Arvo's group was coming. That "argument" is redundant.
He didn't have a gun... only because we took it off him before.
Do you honestly think his group wouldn't have supplied him with another one? Or if it even was his own gun? For all we knew, it could have been his sister's or even one of the other men's. Look at the guns they already had, too. If they could somehow get those, I'm sure they would have another hand-gun somewhere with them.
I think on the walk, he had to lead as he was the one who wanted to go in the first place, if he'd have walked behind talking with Clem, the others might have been turning back and whatnot, just a theory.
Redundant.
And didn't he say something when cleaning his eye? Not the official apology, but I could've sworn he said something along the lines of being apologetic?
No he doesn't. You might be mixed up with some dialogue where once Clementine takes off his bandage, she can apologize and he'll tell her she doesn't need to apologize since she's not the one who messed up his eye.
If only Kenny had that mindset when she tried to save Sarita, we wouldn't be having this entire discussion. At least he did apologize, though.
Well, honestly, I agreed with Kenny on most matters, and especially on Wellington, and I'm aware he can be 'a bag of dicks' if you disagree. But he's only human, I'm sure many people here would only help people who helped them.
Agreeing with him is fine, it's just how he acts when you don't agree is what makes me think he's irrational.
That's being a little unfair at the ski lodge, he had just met the people, and I think he wanted Clem to stay simply because he knew her. But by the time they were at Howe's he definitely acted for the group.
Did he though? As far as he was concerned, he just wanted to get out of Carver's. He didn't even (determinately) care if Alvin was okay and fit to travel at the time he wanted to leave, until the last episode where he said he felt guilty for it. His plan was to also just stroll through the heard of walkers and shoot their way out. As dangerous as that is, more people would have died had Jane not brought up the idea to cover themselves in guts.
He's understandably (this time) someone who puts his family and cared ones first. But he'll look after the group if they look after his family and cared ones.
Except this wasn't a "look out for mine, and I'll look out for yours" case. They all needed to get out of there, not just Kenny and his, or just the cabin group, or just Mike and Jane. It was everyone.
but not knowing him isn't an excuse, she didn't know the Russian guy either.
An excuse for what exactly? She didn't do anything to Nick, she didn't kill him, she was teaching Clem that she needed to do the hard things in life. The Russian guy and Nick are two completely different things, and there's no point to make with them.
Well, she betrayed Walter's kindness, but she is a liar
Under the orders of Carver who she trusted.
yes Leland was determinant, but it was still a choice which she went through with flawlessly.
Um, flawlessly? In her tone of voice, you could tell she didn't want to lie. She sounds guilty, she stutters also. I'm not sure where you got "flawlessly" from. Even after she hit Dee, she says (without our input) "I'm sorry, I need you both." It sucks that the game doesn't give you an option to confess to it being an accident instead of "it doesn't matter" or "I had to do it."
But her actions in Ep5, especially if she liked Clem, was another example of her being a liar and not caring who to.
What exactly would she be lying about? She apologized for lying about who she was back in EP 3 since her intentions were to bring back the group to what she thought was safety. She trusted Carver at that time, he most likely didn't do anything for her to not trust him. She thought his intentions were good, also.
But in EP 5, that's when she betrayed the group. Even if she liked Clem, she didn't lie about anything. In fact, she didn't want to leave Clem's side (if you didn't manage to piss her off with Luke), telling Mike to not touch her when he tried pulling her away. It wasn't until Kenny had some outside that she ran, thinking he'd kill her.
Yes I know Carver headed the scout party, but Bonnie was the one scouting the ski lodge, she could have said it was empty, especially considering it had a nice man called Walter and Luke, whom she liked, living in it.
Again, she trusted Carver. She thought Howe's was as safe as it was going to get. Water, food, electricity, shelter. She didn't know the greater danger because she wasn't exposed to it. That's why when she found out he killed Reggie, and she went to him and he told her he did in a "matter of fact" way, she didn't like it. Her trust for Carver was gone, but in her eyes, redeemable. It wasn't until Kenny beat the shit out of Luke and Kenny, did she make up her mind about Carver and enthuse that they left that night.
And yes Sarita was a goner. Luke wasn't. But Bonnie's plan was stupid. A little girl couldn't pull a grown man out of a lake and across cracking ice. Then she ended Luke's life my walked over to him herself. While Luke could have been saved, Clem played no part in his death, just like Sarita's and Bonnie is just as wrong as Kenny is to shout at Clem, even more so as she indirectly killed Luke by stepping on the cracked ice.
Trust me, I know. But to her, she thought it would save him. Whether she did it or Clem, she thought pulling him out of there was going to save him. Kenny, on the other hand, had no way of saving Sarita. He didn't have a plan nor could Sarita maneuver herself out of that situation to save herself. There's a big difference as to why Bonnie and Kenny yelled at Clementine, it's not the same.
Arvo was asking for it, he taunted Kenny since the gunfight.
LMAO WHAT? PLEASE tell me you're trolling. PLEASE. Arvo didn't answer Kenny's questions out of fear! He even ran on the ice, risking his own life, trying to get away from him! And that was the only things he did-- both out of FEAR, to """taunt""" Kenny. That "fuck you" was out of frustration, unnecessary blame for Luke's death, and being thrown around like a rag doll by him multiple times. Not to mention if you fail to get Kenny to rejoin the group at the camp fire scene, he fucking punches the shit out of Arvo when he yells instead of doing anything but. If Kenny has to use physical force to stop someone from yelling, then you can't tell me he's not unstable OR irrational.
She pushed and she pushed and she pushed. Then she manipulated Kenny into breaking him.
Breaking him? Kenny was already broken, he's been broken for two years. I mean, now that I think about what she did with hiding the baby, she tried to show Clementine what could happen to her had she even accidentally caused the baby to die. If he could say some rude and unthoughtful things to Clementine for Sarita's death, imagine what he'd do if she had gotten the baby killed. Sure, you could use the excuse "but Kenny wouldn't do that to a kid!" But he even threatened to slap her for saying something ungrateful about Lee in EP 5.
Saying things about his family in the car wasn't needed, no matter how much she was trying to make a point to Clementine. I get that. Honestly, I don't even know why I dislike Jane besides the Sarah situation. That's actually the only thing I didn't like her for and the whole baby situation, but now, a year and a half on where I understand it more, there's not much to hate about her imo. I kinda like Jane, and I wouldn't have thought in a million years that I would say that.
no matter how much you hate him
I want to make it clear that I don't hate Kenny. His intentions are good, but he's just too irrational and unstable to take care of a little girl and a baby. Especially with a short temper and fragile mind, he has healing to do before being with Clem again or even taking care of the baby.
You really did pick apart everything I said that time... nice work! In all seriousness though, fair enough, I thought Mike said Texas THEN M… moreexico, my bad. And Howe's was not a confirmed safe haven, the last we saw of it, it had Carver's guards vs 1000 walkers. For all they knew, it could've been swamped with the herd. Wellington was a pretty well known legend (both Christa and Kenny had heard) No smoke without fire.
And okay, comfy was an exaggeration, what I meant was none of the others seemed to actively want to escape Howe's. Only Rebecca, and initially Luke seemed eager to get out of there. The others seemed... content, at least on the surface, I think Kenny was expecting them to all be helping his escape and thinking of a plan, when they mostly just, well, wanted to lay back and wait for Luke.
Well, I presume Rebecca knew what to do, but Kenny was the only one with experience. The others all admitted they didn't know what to do.
… [view original content]
I guess that they felt if push came to shove then it would still be a 2 v 1 against Arvo, meaning from a purely survival point of view, going with Arvo was the best option.
Okay, but Howe's was deemed a threat when they last saw it. It was that or Wellington, it was in the area, plus it was also rumoured walkers don't walk in the cold, a safe community PLUS inactive walkers, seems a safe bet for two children
Because they had nothing else to do in the pen. If Kenny hadn't brought up the subject, I don't think any of the others would have, at least not until after Alvin's death (determinately). Either way, they were bored and they got in on the conversation.
I meant looking after the baby, but his experience of labour also helped too.
And yes, Arvo wanted to get away from Kenny, I agree with that. But his shooting of Clem (who was unarmed by that point) was pure revenge for his sister, not all people acted like a dick to Arvo and they still got shot.
Like I say, it was a weak argument, but one of the others would've noticed her dying and taken Alvin away without the distraction of an armed group
No, I reckon that was originally Arvo's gun, or the crappy one the group gave him. After he told them a little girl stole it off him, they're not going to trust him with another gun are they?
And you're right I think, someone apologised, I think it was Clem though. And you can't expect him to have a sound mindset after he just lost the love of his life, undoubtedly the woman that brought him back to humanity, cut him some slack.
He doesn't like it when you disagree, but I don't think Kenny particularly wants to travel and survive with people who are just going to go against him, I don't blame him for being like that, even if it is a little selfish
I don't think anyone knew what state Alvin was in, apart from Rebecca, it's a miracle he was still alive. And yes it was his original plan, and it was reckless, luckily Jane refined the plan, although I would've hope Clem might've mentioned something if it got that far. The only other option was to wait for Luke, who wasn't reliable to Kenny, (all Kenny knew was that he disappeared when the group got attacked) so it's understandable Kenny doesn't want to put his trust in Luke yet.
Yes, but the group and Sarita but got on well, that meant a tick in Kenny's book.
And like I said, Nick was irrelevant in the argument. But it doesn't matter whether she knew the Russian guy or not, he was a clear threat to the people she did know.
Did she trust Carver? Surely she must have known he had a screw loose, wasn't she in on the 1st escape of the cabin group? Or at least question why they'd escaped?
And alright, I couldn't think of a word, it's been more than 400 days since I've played 400 days, but what I meant was she still lied, the stuttering was just through the shock of killing Dee, not because she was lying through her teeth.
Well, technically she didn't lie. In fact, she didn't say anything. She gave no indication to Clem that her and Mike was going to leave with everything in the night, including the prisoner. Thank god for than random string thing and the window, or they'd have been long gone. Their betrayal was deceitful though, is perhaps the better word
Kenny beat the shit out of Luke and Kenny??!?! You are so blatantly anti-Kenny that you're now lying to make him look even worse! .. Okay, I know you meant Carver, just thought I'd add a bit of humour in. And okay, so she didn't know Carver was a bad cookie, but how come she didn't smell a rat when they went looking for the group, with guns, and then Carver murdering Walter and perhaps Alvin, was there maybe not a little clue there?
Well Kenny turned around to see, Sarita stood there bit and Clem looking sheepish and scared behind her. He never witnessed what happened, and if you lopped her arm off, that looks even worse. Bonnie had the full view and they had all the time in the world, instead she went in and got Luke killed. Then blamed it on Clem. It's not the same completely, but both unfairly blamed Clem, Bonnie was worse in my opinion, SHE caused Luke's death and pushed the blame onto Clem!
No I'm not trolling, that usually looks like a bad attempt at me trying to be funny, but never mind. When someone asks you a question, as simple as 'how far?' surely you just answer it? He didn't seem scared when Clem pushed for an answer? He knew not answering was making Kenny angry, SO JUST ANSWER. And the running bit, don't get me started on that. Why was he running? It wasn't to get away from Kenny, he hadn't done anything at that point? He's worse than half the Jane fans on here, making him look bad for nothing. When you're on an icy lake, the last thing you do is run? How suspicious does that look? Trying to break the ice and get away? Running for reinforcements in the house? That was his own stupid fault. We never saw how Luke ended up in the drink, did he try hobbling after Kenny to stop him, only for the ice to break? Arvo running made the tense situation worse for no reason whatsoever. The "Fuck you" was ridiculous, you don't say that to an angry man and expect to get away, he was playing silly buggers by that point. And I always got Kenny back by the fire (you may have guessed) I never saw the scene, but surely Arvo's screaming could've drawn walkers? Maybe beating him was a bit too far, but so's screaming your head off. I think Arvo was just pissing Kenny off by that point, remember Kenny didn't WANT to drag Arvo around, he wanted the quick solution..
Oh no, this whole thing has resulted in me convincing you to like Jane! That wasn't my intention! Jane didn't just 'accidently' kill Alvin. She's repeatedly shown she doesn't really care about it, and disapproves of having a baby in the group. Kenny knew that, and when - the one time she had him- she walks through the door without him. JUST after slagging Kenny off over his family. I don't think Kenny was in the wrong to think she had done something. She's just pushed him over his family, now she's done the baby in, to get at him. And I don't tend to go for that card, but Kenny wouldn't kill Clem. Some parents are for slapping their kids to discipline them, maybe that's what Kenny had in mind when he said it to Clem? I never got that so I can't comment.
And okay, that's reassuring. But I don't think he's incapable of looking after Clem and Alvin. He is a parent, broken or not, he knows how to look after kids. And he loves them both, and yes, he's overprotective of them, don't tell me it's a bad thing, I'm not listening. I feel once the people calling him and doubting and disagreeing with him are gone, he's okay! He just wants to look after his family. And by Ep5, that's who Clem and AJ are, Yes he's got a short temper, yes he's been through hell, yes he can be as stubborn as a mule, but he's healing with Clem and the baby. Nine days in and he's smiling and joking, it's not it, but it's progress. He has his 3rd family now, he's happy.
But for the love of God, let's pray Clem or AJ don't die in S3, or we'll be back here again
For all they knew, it could've been swamped with the herd. Wellington was a pretty well known legend (both Christa and Kenny had heard) No s… moremoke without fire.
And for all they knew, it could have been just a rumor or someone misunderstood what it completely was. Only two people out of all the people we met had heard of Wellington, that isn't enough people to deem it a "well known legend."
what I meant was none of the others seemed to actively want to escape Howe's
Except they were? Why would they join in on conversation and even make suggestions as to how they could escape in a more safer manner if they didn't want to leave just yet? All of them wanted leave and they all did.
Well, I presume Rebecca knew what to do, but Kenny was the only one with experience. The others all admitted they didn't know what to do.
You still haven't clarified on whether you meant taking care of a baby or help give birth to a ba… [view original content]
Okay, but Howe's was deemed a threat when they last saw it.
I'm not sure how, considering all the walkers migrated to Parker's Run. It's the reason why the place was deserted when Jane and Clem get there.
plus it was also rumoured walkers don't walk in the cold, a safe community PLUS inactive walkers, seems a safe bet for two children
1) They had no idea if the community was actually safe or not.
2) I'm pretty sure a known source of shelter, food, water, and electricity (Howe's) is a much more safer bet than a place they knew hardly about or how to get there. We wouldn't have known if it was in the area, it took them 9 days to get there. Jane did mention getting back to Howe's in a day, but I'm sure they would have stopped for a bit to rest up.
Because they had nothing else to do in the pen. If Kenny hadn't brought up the subject, I don't think any of the others would have, at least not until after Alvin's death (determinately). Either way, they were bored and they got in on the conversation.
So your defense to what I said is that they were bored? Do you even know what you're defending anymore? It's like your pulling these random assumptions out of your ass and playing them off as an actual argument. what????? They weren't bored, how the hell would they even be bored? Kenny didn't even bring up the idea, the conversation most likely started after they saw Luke.
I meant looking after the baby, but his experience of labour also helped too.
I'm sure they knew the basics of looking after a baby, Kenny just had experience of it.
And yes, Arvo wanted to get away from Kenny, I agree with that. But his shooting of Clem (who was unarmed by that point) was pure revenge for his sister, not all people acted like a dick to Arvo and they still got shot.
Hate to break it to you, but it really wasn't. It wasn't that reason alone. I mean, one of the options is to yell for Kenny and Jane. And when she does, he shoots her immediately so he's not caught by Kenny. And I don't think Jane would beat the shit out of someone she was defending for wanting to leave with their supplies. Kenny would, though.
Like I say, it was a weak argument, but one of the others would've noticed her dying and taken Alvin away without the distraction of an armed group
But moments before that, they had an argument with Kenny because he wanted to take the baby from her and she declined. Besides, the group probably thought it was better for Rebecca to hold the baby since she didn't have a gun aimed at her and was sitting down. (Nor was she in the middle of all of it like Clem was).
No, I reckon that was originally Arvo's gun, or the crappy one the group gave him. After he told them a little girl stole it off him, they're not going to trust him with another gun are they?
This one's a little shaky. They did want to steal supplies off another group, so it wouldn't surprise me if they wanted to arm everyone for the occasion. Then again, we don't know much about Arvo's group, so that one's definitely arguable.
And you're right I think, someone apologised, I think it was Clem though. And you can't expect him to have a sound mindset after he just lost the love of his life, undoubtedly the woman that brought him back to humanity, cut him some slack.
Sure, he just lost someone, but Kenny had much more of a reason to live now that he wanted to look after a defenseless baby. Besides, Kenny had been aggressive even before Sarita died-- or even stepped into his life. Surely Clementine apologizing for something she didn't do would have struck a chord in his mind and he would have apologized for blaming her.
I don't think anyone knew what state Alvin was in, apart from Rebecca, it's a miracle he was still alive.
I'm sure people would have known since Rebecca would have told them, or Carver would have boasted about it. And by the sound of Kenny in Episode 5, it looks like he knew about it too.
And yes it was his original plan, and it was reckless, luckily Jane refined the plan, although I would've hope Clem might've mentioned something if it got that far.
I'm not sure Clem would have remembered without Jane bringing it up. It happened two years ago, and you'd think it would have stuck in her head, but she would have brought it up sooner if she did.
The only other option was to wait for Luke, who wasn't reliable to Kenny, (all Kenny knew was that he disappeared when the group got attacked) so it's understandable Kenny doesn't want to put his trust in Luke yet.
It doesn't matter if he wasn't reliable to Kenny, he was reliable to everyone else. And I don't see why he wouldn't be reliable, since he proved to Kenny that he wasn't a "flake" by returning to get the group out. Kenny must have known what Luke was going to do, but thought he wouldn't be able to do it, because of how Kenny belittles him in the truck. Which is probably why Kenny told him to "take a hike." Luke must've pitched to Kenny what he was going to do and Kenny disagreed, thinking he could shoot Carver's men and get it over with.
Yes, but the group and Sarita but got on well, that meant a tick in Kenny's book.
I don't think so. From what we saw, whenever Sarita enthused about the group seeming like good people, he disagreed with her.
And like I said, Nick was irrelevant in the argument. But it doesn't matter whether she knew the Russian guy or not, he was a clear threat to the people she did know.
So why exactly did you bring Nick up, then?
And I'm guessing that Jane never had to directly kill a person before, which is probably why she felt bad about it.
Did she trust Carver? Surely she must have known he had a screw loose, wasn't she in on the 1st escape of the cabin group? Or at least question why they'd escaped?
She did, that's why she stayed in the community when Luke asked her to join them. She knew there was a screw loose with Carver, yes, which is probably why she was planning on leaving with them too, but I don't think she knew he was that messed up until the incident with Reggie and Kenny. She even says that Carver wasn't always like that, which probably gave her more reason to stay. When the time came for Carver to make a move on the group, Bonnie says (in the armory) that she wasn't expecting any of that to happen and that she just wanted the group in a safe place, obviously because she cared about them. She'd made bonds with them while they were all at the community in the first place.
Bonnie ended up staying because she thought it was easier to "try and fix something that's broken than to start all over."
And alright, I couldn't think of a word, it's been more than 400 days since I've played 400 days, but what I meant was she still lied, the stuttering was just through the shock of killing Dee, not because she was lying through her teeth.
-_-
okay
Sure, it's bad enough that she was shocked about killing Dee, and how Leeland would react, but of course it would have been pressure to her to go as far as to lie about it with all the guilt she had.
Well, technically she didn't lie. In fact, she didn't say anything. She gave no indication to Clem that her and Mike was going to leave with everything in the night, including the prisoner. Thank god for than random string thing and the window, or they'd have been long gone. Their betrayal was deceitful though, is perhaps the better word
Yes, a much better way of saying what Bonnie had done.
Kenny beat the shit out of Luke and Kenny??!?! You are so blatantly anti-Kenny that you're now lying to make him look even worse!
Funny thing, actually. As I was reading over my argument just a second ago, I noticed that mistake. It's too funny to edit out though.
And okay, so she didn't know Carver was a bad cookie, but how come she didn't smell a rat when they went looking for the group, with guns, and then Carver murdering Walter and perhaps Alvin, was there maybe not a little clue there?
He must have shown some indication that we was losing it in their search for the group, but Bonnie was just in denial about it. Like someone mentioned before, Bonnie's the type of person that needs to feel safe. It could have been that this new side of Carver made her feel like nothing could get to her since he was so... "tough." Not to mention the community he provided for her and others, she probably didn't want to seem ungrateful too.
Well Kenny turned around to see, Sarita stood there bit and Clem looking sheepish and scared behind her. He never witnessed what happened, and if you lopped her arm off, that looks even worse. Bonnie had the full view and they had all the time in the world, instead she went in and got Luke killed. Then blamed it on Clem. It's not the same completely, but both unfairly blamed Clem, Bonnie was worse in my opinion, SHE caused Luke's death and pushed the blame onto Clem!
I honestly don't think you're understanding the difference. It's COMPLETELY different from each other, and Kenny's was much worse than Bonnie's. Bonnie blamed Clem because she didn't listen to her + she thought Clem was light enough to go and help him. So not listening to her, and feeling pissed that Clem could have possibly saved him (since she guessed it would have), is much more understandable.
Kenny, on the other hand, is pissed at Clementine for both scenarios! And for what?! If you don't cut off her hand, he tells her Sarita is going to die because of her, DESPITE LEAVING THROUGH THE HERD BEING HIS PLAN! Kenny is irrational in both scenarios, and sure, maybe cutting off Sarita's hand and Kenny getting pissed about that is a little more understandable, but it's still irrational as hell. At least Bonnie had a basis of why it was Clem's fault, Kenny had literally no basis at all. She was dead the moment that walker bit into her skin and there was nothing no one could do about it.
When someone asks you a question, as simple as 'how far?' surely you just answer it? He didn't seem scared when Clem pushed for an answer? He knew not answering was making Kenny angry, SO JUST ANSWER!
I don't even see how it's "taunting" him in the first place? Like I said he was scared of Kenny. Not Clementine, KENNY. That's why when she pushed for an answer, he responded.
And the running bit, don't get me started on that. Why was he running? It wasn't to get away from Kenny, he hadn't done anything at that point?
Kenny had a gun to his back, the hell do you mean he wasn't trying to get away from him? He was already moving away from him, and not to mention the walkers behind them, which probably made him want to run faster.
He's worse than half the Jane fans on here, making him look bad for nothing.
What are you even going on about? Honestly, at this point, I don't even think you know what you're saying.
When you're on an icy lake, the last thing you do is run? How suspicious does that look?
I explained why he ran multiple times, but more perfectly in my previous argument:
Arvo didn't answer Kenny's questions out of fear! He even ran on the ice, risking his own life, trying to get away from him!
So tell me, why else would he run on the ice and risk his life? There isn't a logical answer other than the fact that he wanted to get away from Kenny.
Trying to break the ice and get away?
what
We never saw how Luke ended up in the drink
Yes, actually, we did. As Clem walks, she steps on the thin part of the ice and stops. That's when Luke tells her to keep going, walking directly where she was walking. Now of course it didn't cave in on her because she's lighter than Luke and she only carried a hand gun. Luke, who then stepped on the thin ice, was carrying an AK-47 (which I could only assume is heavy) and weighs a lot more than Clementine does.
did he try hobbling after Kenny to stop him
no lmao, Mike was already chasing after him. I don't think Luke would be stupid enough to follow suit when he knew Mike was capable of stopping him if he had to.
The "Fuck you" was ridiculous, you don't say that to an angry man and expect to get away
Are you trying to say Arvo wasn't angry too? Did you see the death stare he gave to Clem? Harry Potter was angry as hell with the way Kenny was treating him and bucked up. A simple "fuck you" shouldn't have sent Kenny on a fist-throwing spree when the man has said worse to Arvo himself.
You don't abuse a kid and expect him not to say something back.
And I always got Kenny back by the fire (you may have guessed) I never saw the scene, but surely Arvo's screaming could've drawn walkers?
Don't you watch walkthroughs of the game when you try to back up your arguments? Or even explore other choices? I'm sure it could solidify your evidence. Of course a scream is going to draw walkers, no doubt. I honestly don't get why he screamed in the first place, but knocking the kid out was way too far.
I think Arvo was just pissing Kenny off by that point, remember Kenny didn't WANT to drag Arvo around, he wanted the quick solution..
And by "that point," you mean at the house? Funny, because by "that point," Kenny had the chance to drown Arvo. He even threatens to do it. So if he really wanted the quick solution, then he would have done it.
Oh no, this whole thing has resulted in me convincing you to like Jane! That wasn't my intention!
Eh, I've been leaning towards her anyway.
Jane didn't just 'accidently' kill Alvin. She's repeatedly shown she doesn't really care about it, and disapproves of having a baby in the group. Kenny knew that
"Doesn't really care about it"? Are we going to smooth over the fact that one of the reasons she wanted to go to Howe's was because there was baby formula there? Or that she moved the baby into another room so it could sleep peacefully without the hassle of Mike talking? Jane is all about survival, sure, but that doesn't make her a heartless bitch. If you saved her, she actually takes the baby with her and Clem despite it not even being hers. She could have left the baby in that car if she wanted to, but she didn't.
And sure, she had her worries about a baby being in the group at first, but how exactly does Kenny know this? Kenny was too busy blaming Clementine and feeling sorry for himself over Sarita, so no one would have told him.
JUST after slagging Kenny off over his family.
You know, I've watched the argument in the car countless times and it may appear that Jane had egged Kenny on talking about his family, but Kenny actually starts with her. Not only is he unnecessarily rude to her in the beginning (when Clem wakes up), and she manages to keep a cool composure, but he literally pushes her feet off the dashboard of a car that isn't even his-- nor does that matter, simply because he doesn't want to go to Howe's.
Not only does that start some childish insults, but Kenny attacks her first, telling her that she's nothing and no one cares about her, which prompts her to fight back and talk about his family.
Even after all this arguing, Jane actually attempts to apologize! Except she can't because Kenny cuts her off and tells her the cars could have fuel and they need it. So obviously, she's not as heartless as you're making her out to be.
I don't think Kenny was in the wrong to think she had done something.
Jane has never shown ANY indication that Kenny would even know of that she wanted to get rid of the baby. I mean, she even showed sympathy over killing a man she didn't know who'd been shooting at them. And you want to tell me that her killing a baby on purpose seems plausible? hAH
She's just pushed him over his family,
After he went after her first.
now she's done the baby in, to get at him.
lmao
"to get at him."
It wasn't to get at him purely for revenge, it was so show Clem what he was capable of had someone ever rubbed him the wrong way. She was showing her how dangerous he could be if she ever slipped up and that he was unstable. Jane herself even admits that she didn't know he was going to go as far as trying to kill her, so obviously he proved to be even more unstable than she originally thought.
And you think he's safe with Clem? Sure, when he's all peaches and cream, he's a good man. But the thing is, he's not peaches and cream. He can act like he is, but seriously, he's not. Once Kenny's angry, he doesn't care if you're a kid or not. He fucking hurt Clementine so badly (mentally, not physically, thank God) when he blamed her for Sarita's death. Hell, he's even reckless enough that when he was beating the shit out of Arvo, he accidentally hit her. She's not safe around him, she shouldn't be near him, and Jane was trying to prove that to her.
And I don't tend to go for that card, but Kenny wouldn't kill Clem.
I couldn't ever see Kenny kill Clem purposely. Not even out of sheer rage like he did with Jane. But with his mindset, the possibility of it happening accidentally doesn't seem too out of reach.
Some parents are for slapping their kids to discipline them, maybe that's what Kenny had in mind when he said it to Clem?
Notice how you said some parents? Kenny hasn't got claim on Clementine or AJ, nor is he the parent. He doesn't have the right to lay a figure on her out of discipline.
But I don't think he's incapable of looking after Clem and Alvin.
oh dear god please be joking
He is a parent, broken or not, he knows how to look after kids.
Being able to keep a child and baby by his side, getting food or water for them, and attending to their basic needs, doesn't exactly mean he knows how to take care of a kid. Taking care of a kid also comes with the responsibility of treating them properly. Do you really think Kenny's going to handle a situation where Clem screws up without blowing a fuse and making her feel like shit for it? You saw the way he spoke to her about Sarita and she didn't even do anything but her best. That's no way to treat a child who only tried to do the right thing and save the person he loves.
Kenny needs to understand that death is apart of life and you can't stop it from happening entirely. And until he does, he's not fit to handle a child who isn't perfect and can't keep the world around her alive, let alone a baby, who's going to grow into a toddler, and appear as more of a threat to those he loves.
And he loves them both,
I like how you told me previously that Clem was a surrogate sister to Jane, but neglected the fact that Clem was a surrogate child to Kenny. And Alvin Junior? Does that not remind you of the name he gave Duck? Kenny Junior? Another surrogate child. And hell, I'll even go as far as Sarita. I'm not going to deny the fact that he loved her, but if you hack off Sarita's arm and she's dying on the ground, Kenny, who's in denial about her dying, even says "I won't be left alone again." Surrogate wife? Eh.
I feel once the people calling him and doubting and disagreeing with him are gone, he's okay!
Oh my GOD.
No one has EVER learned from a person who always agreed with them. NO ONE. You don't get to take out all the factors that makes Kenny mad and say "see!! he's a good lil cupcake, i promise!!"
That's like saying "well, if Rebecca had never left Howe's and raised that baby with Carver, then Carver wouldn't have tried to kill everyone! Haha! Life is good!!"
Hell, take misogyny, misandry, rapists, murderers, racists, homophobes, alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, and Donald Trump off the face of the Earth and I'll be just as happy as Kenny is when people don't disagree, call out, confront, or doubt him.
Oh, what? You can't do that, right? Because it's literally impossible? Oh yeah. I'm just going to have to deal with those.
Okay, but Howe's was deemed a threat when they last saw it. It was that or Wellington, it was in the area, plus it was also rumoured walkers… more don't walk in the cold, a safe community PLUS inactive walkers, seems a safe bet for two children
Because they had nothing else to do in the pen. If Kenny hadn't brought up the subject, I don't think any of the others would have, at least not until after Alvin's death (determinately). Either way, they were bored and they got in on the conversation.
I meant looking after the baby, but his experience of labour also helped too.
And yes, Arvo wanted to get away from Kenny, I agree with that. But his shooting of Clem (who was unarmed by that point) was pure revenge for his sister, not all people acted like a dick to Arvo and they still got shot.
Like I say, it was a weak argument, but one of the others would've noticed her dying and taken Alvin away without the distraction of an armed group
No,… [view original content]
Okay, but Howe's was deemed a threat when they last saw it.
I'm not sure how, considering all the walkers migrated to Parker's Run. … moreIt's the reason why the place was deserted when Jane and Clem get there.
plus it was also rumoured walkers don't walk in the cold, a safe community PLUS inactive walkers, seems a safe bet for two children
1) They had no idea if the community was actually safe or not.
2) I'm pretty sure a known source of shelter, food, water, and electricity (Howe's) is a much more safer bet than a place they knew hardly about or how to get there. We wouldn't have known if it was in the area, it took them 9 days to get there. Jane did mention getting back to Howe's in a day, but I'm sure they would have stopped for a bit to rest up.
Because they had nothing else to do in the pen. If Kenny hadn't brought up the subject, I don't think any of the others would have, at least not until after Alvin's death… [view original content]
He just wants to look after his family. And by Ep5, that's who Clem and AJ are
What exactly makes them family, again? He "takes care" of them by attending to basic needs but that doesn't make them family.
Yes he's got a short temper
This isn't helping the fact that he's unfit to take care of children.
yes he can be as stubborn as a mule
Neither is this.
but he's healing with Clem and the baby.
No he's not? He's really not. He needs to heal BEFORE he gets to Clem and AJ. He needs to go through the bad to get to the good. If he goes through the bad with Clem and AJ, it's only going to affect them in an awful way.
He has his 3rd family now
He has his 3rd surrogate* family now
But let's go back to what you previously said in one of your comments:
yes, he's overprotective of them, don't tell me it's a bad thing, I'm not listening.
I wasn't going to say that over-protectiveness is a bad thing, considering they live in the damn apocalypse, it's quite actually a good thing. But you telling me that you won't listen gives me more than enough reason not to continue with this argument. You've pulled assumption out of assumption, reached far into the depths of fuckery for counter-arguments, and tried to taint characters who tried to expose Kenny/get away from Kenny, all to defend a man who blamed a little girl that did everything in her power to save his girlfriend. It's seriously concerning how far you're willing to go to defend a character who's guilty of everything I pointed out: His instability, irrationality, and being unfit to take care of children. All you've thrown back is things that don't make sense and seem made up, all just to defend Kenny. And for what? Look, it's fine to have a favourite character who's problematic, but you can't defend everything he pulls out of his hat just because he's your favourite.
Hell, one of my favourite characters of all time is Handsome Jack, and I know he's problematic as fuck. I couldn't even try to defend his actions even if I wanted to.
But anyway, I've proven continuously that Kenny is unstable, irrational, and unfit to take care of a child, let alone a baby that'll grow into a screaming toddler and cause more tragedy for his loves ones. Kenny needs to heal before he could ever get to take care of them again.
So until you understand this, this will be my last argument with you on this topic. It was fun until you reached too far for a defense. Have a nice day, pal.
Okay, but Howe's was deemed a threat when they last saw it. It was that or Wellington, it was in the area, plus it was also rumoured walkers… more don't walk in the cold, a safe community PLUS inactive walkers, seems a safe bet for two children
Because they had nothing else to do in the pen. If Kenny hadn't brought up the subject, I don't think any of the others would have, at least not until after Alvin's death (determinately). Either way, they were bored and they got in on the conversation.
I meant looking after the baby, but his experience of labour also helped too.
And yes, Arvo wanted to get away from Kenny, I agree with that. But his shooting of Clem (who was unarmed by that point) was pure revenge for his sister, not all people acted like a dick to Arvo and they still got shot.
Like I say, it was a weak argument, but one of the others would've noticed her dying and taken Alvin away without the distraction of an armed group
No,… [view original content]
I couldn't agree more with your reasoning of why Kenny is unstable and irrational, unfit to look after people, and should be held responsible for many things but refuses to take any responsibility.
The more I read them, the more I find myself thinking "Damn, Kenny is perhaps one of the most insufferable and unlikable characters in the Walking Dead universe."
Part 2, I guess:
He just wants to look after his family. And by Ep5, that's who Clem and AJ are
What exactly makes them family… more, again? He "takes care" of them by attending to basic needs but that doesn't make them family.
Yes he's got a short temper
This isn't helping the fact that he's unfit to take care of children.
yes he can be as stubborn as a mule
Neither is this.
but he's healing with Clem and the baby.
No he's not? He's really not. He needs to heal BEFORE he gets to Clem and AJ. He needs to go through the bad to get to the good. If he goes through the bad with Clem and AJ, it's only going to affect them in an awful way.
He has his 3rd family now
He has his 3rd surrogate* family now
But let's go back to what you previously said in one of your comments:
yes, he's overprotective of them, don't tell me it's a bad thing, I'm not listening.
I wasn't going… [view original content]
I couldn't agree more with your reasoning of why Kenny is unstable and irrational, unfit to look after people, and should be held responsibl… moree for many things but refuses to take any responsibility.
The more I read them, the more I find myself thinking "Damn, Kenny is perhaps one of the most insufferable and unlikable characters in the Walking Dead universe."
He has his 3rd surrogate* family now But let's go back to what you previously said in one of your comments:
Let me know if I've read this wrong but this argument is bullshit, surrogate family or not, family is family. This isn't even debateable.
Everything else though is fair game, I agree Kenny is mentally unstable and as he is unfit to raise a child but if you take the Kenny/AJ/Clem ending it seems like Telltale's going down a redemption route with Kenny with the running up the hill scene and the speech he gave about him admitting he was unfit to take care of AJ and Clem (which is a huge step one the way to recovery) and would sacrifice himself for them (personally, I think this would be an awesome route for TT to take ) and if they do take this route Kenny's healing doesn't have to be a traumatic experience which will scar Clementine for years to come if anything it'll bring hope to her, if Kenny shows enough resolve to get over his past that could be a hugely impactful for Clem and be hugely useful
lesson for the future. To give a final judgement would be a little hasty when it's been hinted that he's on the way to recovery and by the end of Episode 5, he's realised his problem. But you've been totally right in saying he's been a total asshat to everyone up to the end of Episode 5.
Part 2, I guess:
He just wants to look after his family. And by Ep5, that's who Clem and AJ are
What exactly makes them family… more, again? He "takes care" of them by attending to basic needs but that doesn't make them family.
Yes he's got a short temper
This isn't helping the fact that he's unfit to take care of children.
yes he can be as stubborn as a mule
Neither is this.
but he's healing with Clem and the baby.
No he's not? He's really not. He needs to heal BEFORE he gets to Clem and AJ. He needs to go through the bad to get to the good. If he goes through the bad with Clem and AJ, it's only going to affect them in an awful way.
He has his 3rd family now
He has his 3rd surrogate* family now
But let's go back to what you previously said in one of your comments:
yes, he's overprotective of them, don't tell me it's a bad thing, I'm not listening.
I wasn't going… [view original content]
Alright, as this could be the final reply, I'll try and swing it back to what the original argument was.. providing I can remember..
The herd didn't migrate to Parker's Run, I'm thinking the ones there maybe followed Clem and co from the Caravan park, where Sarah+Luke was. The numbers seen at PR were too small to be the herd. I stand by my original point that Howe's COULD still have been swamped with the herd
Howe's was not a safe option. Due to the herd and the presence of Carver's guards. For all Kenny knew, Wellington could have only been a day away as well. Wellington was well known, it was in a cold setting, and must have been well supplied and guarded, for it to last this long.
Of course, don't ridicule me. They're locked in a small pen, with nothing to do, if there's a heated argument going on, you'll join in, is that that hard to believe? (And yes I make assumptions, that's pretty much was S2 was. I'm not saying they're right, but some are highly likely, as this one^^^)
Okay, but there's a lot more to just knowing the basics, minus Rebecca, none seemed too capable of being guardians.
Why would you shoot Clem?.. because you're pissed at Kenny, does this guy have a brain? They're two different people, you don't shoot one because of the other. That's a silly argument (and don't you dare say "All of yours is" - That's uncalled for..)
Okay, (Rebecca/death/baby) fair enough
Not really, I mean I don't know Arvo's group, and I'm banned from making assumptions. But I'd assume they wouldn't trust Arvo the kid, who was robbed by a little girl - hmm?
I think it did strike a chord afterwards, then leading to the by-the-camp scene, but okay, he should have said sorry earlier
The plan was for Alvin to come back with Clem, so I'll assume they thought he was fit enough, or they expected Clem to fireman's lift him outta there. And Luke was the one who suggested they might have to leave Kenny as well, this isn't exclusively Kenny being selfish.
I agree (Clem/Jane/Plan), but Kenny's plan was using the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity of the herd distracting the guards for a day or two. As opposed to Luke's plan which was to find a gap in guard duty? Hope they didn't notice an empty pen? And then hope they didn't send another search party?
As for Luke, Kenny didn't fully trust him to execute his plan properly, and in all fairness, he didn't, he got caught
But I think as Sarita got on with them, Kenny would put up with them
I made a mistake bringing Nick up, I'm not perfect!
As for the Bonnie/Carver stuff, I'm gonna skip pass that as the original post was about Kenny. BUT I did read what you put and I mostly agree with what you say.
Okay, so Kenny is in complete denial because he knows that Sarita was doomed either way and couldn't be saved, due to this, he pushes the blame onto Clem, that's because he can't accept it was nobody's fault. I think I got it in a nutshell. I'll come back to this in my sign off. However, Bonnie was still in the wrong as her plan was a stupid one, even more stupid than escaping through a herd with a gun in one hand, and crossed fingers in the other, as some may argue italic text
Kenny had a gun on him... But he wasn't going to shoot him? Why would he just randomly shoot him? As for the walkers, they were miles away, why run? Maybe it was because he was scared, suddenly now, and not before though. But what a stupid, stupid thing to do, his actions were STUPID and UNCALLED for, I only wish Kenny had knocked some SENSE into Arvo, he clearly has none.
Luke didn't notice the crack? Maybe because he was to busy looking at the commotion, that's an assumption dontkillme, but it's not that hard to imagine
Yes, but you see, Arvo is a PRISONER, and you have to play the game. When a prisoner, you have to play along with your captor, you don't antagonise him, and say "fuck you" and expect nothing in return. If Arvo wants to get angry that's fine, but that means Kenny the captor is entitled to beat the crap out of him. I'd do the same if someone said 'fuck you' to me
I do watch other walkthroughs. Some have similar choices, and others don't cover every possibility. I do try to watch them all, but there's ALOT of different options. Usually I check the scenes before I write, but it already takes me an hour to do this, and that's not when the laptop closes the page on me. It's laziness on my part, but I try not to fight a scene I don't know
And Kenny didn't drown Arvo, because he knew that would have been the end of the group. Maybe Kenny was trying to keep the peace by keeping Arvo intact? HE wanted the quick solution, but the group didn't. Maybe for once he wasn't being totally unreasonable?
Oh (Jane)
I think the baby formula was just to keep Clem content. She showed some signs of caring for it of course, but the general aura (?) I got was that she wasn't really a big fan of having a baby around. I'm sure Kenny must have picked up on it, if not in the scenes we didn't see. And she is cold, not a heartless bitch, but she can turn her emotions of like that
Okay, I guess that's the part when he calls her for not caring, something like that (yes I didn't watch, but I remember the scene), and by that point, it was two adults and two kids, I think he wanted to just get to Wellington and not have the 'group' split anymore. But hey it's an assumption, I guess that discredits it, who knows? I seem to remember Kenny asking 'Are you alright?' first to Jane? Like I say, I know she isn't heartless, but she can switch off just as easy, Clem opens her up a bit in Ep5, hence we see a warmer side (a lukewarm side... sorry, I'll see myself out)
I was speaking as to how Kenny would see the situation, hence killing the baby, and as she walked in, she didn't seem overly distraught. I know why she did it really, as you explained. And Jane had the knife, and used the knife, that was only going to end with death at that point, why'd she pull it out if she thought it was going to be non-lethal? And the elbow scene is unfair, Clem threw herself in there, which was reckless itself. You can't blame him for that.
I don't think he could ever accidently kill Clem, even in rage. There wouldn't be a fight before hand for it to be accidental, she is a kid.
Yeah, I guess he doesn't, I was just challenging your statement, (that's debating, not me trying to be stubborn)
He's not incapable. Ep4/5 was a really stressful time, there was no time to relax and take things easily, something was constantly happening and emotions ran high. Given time, like the endings, I think he'll sort himself out, YOU may disagree, as will many others, but I think he'll come back around (Or at least start too, maybe not like full circle). I think Kenny gets his redemption in his endings.
No, I just think that they're calling him Alvin, and jr out of respect to his late father, I don't think there's a Duck reference in there. And maybe Sarita was his surrogate wife, but that's a two-way thing. I'm sure she wouldn't mind being labelled that, as Kenny a 'surrogate husband', who knows how close they were?
Okay, but seeing Kenny in his natural relaxed state, the results are good. So the problem comes with argumentative adults who disagree with him. Kenny will always have that argumentative side too, but that's okay, compared to stabbing every single one, which he won't do again. Being in a group, and having everyone in it saying the opposite to what you say and disagreeing with you, can make you angry. I know this, (kinda like when you get people saying how much they agree with you, and I get 0 likes... Okay it's sarcasm, don't call me out on egotistical issues, it's a British thing)
In the apocalypse, the people who are around you for long periods of time, become a sort of 'extended family'. It reaches a stage where you care for the people like a family
Right okay. I won't listen that was not meant to be a statement on how I read your things. I read them with great interest, and I do learn things as you do make good points. I won't listen was JUST for the little over protectiveness statement. I want that cleared up, I'm not a bigot. For the sake of debate I don't always show that I agree with some points. It may give the impression that in my head, Kenny is some immortal (he got lucky) god who can do no wrong. He isn't. He's far from it. The Sarita situation was his lowest point, he was in the wrong to blame Clem, I know that. All I said on the matter, was that I understand the psychology about it. I never agreed with him that it was Clem's fault. He has got a temper, he has got a family-first attitude, he's had that since S1Ep1.
But he's not unstable, like malicious characters such as The Stranger, or Carver. He's lost two families and he's clinging onto a 3rd. That'd take anyone to a dark place.
He's not irrational on some of his decisions, but that comes down to whether you agree with them or not. The Arvo situation for me was Kenny talking sense, same with Wellington. If you disagree that's fine, you're not wrong. No-one's right either. And he's fit to look after Clem and AJ, you can't just balance it off the worst times that you've seen.
The problem with S2, is that the details, all lie to assumption. Whether you stole from Arvo or not for example, that can make him a victim who came with his group to reclaim what was his, or it can make him a hypocritical villain. It's all down to assumption.
In short, if this is the end, I enjoyed it, and I'm glad that you replied to all of my posts, you did raise several points that I found myself agreeing to (it may not have looked it, but I don't show it in the heat of an argument), Kenny isn't perfect, but he's not the worst either. It all depends on the angle you look at him from. Yes, we both disagree with each other, and that's fine, maybe I did pull some 'interesting facts' which never existed before, excuse me, but the core of what I said I still stand by and for the most part, I am right in my facts. Thank you for discussing it and thank you again for keeping it civil and not turning it into a slanging match. You have a nice day too, InfiniteDebate
Part 2, I guess:
He just wants to look after his family. And by Ep5, that's who Clem and AJ are
What exactly makes them family… more, again? He "takes care" of them by attending to basic needs but that doesn't make them family.
Yes he's got a short temper
This isn't helping the fact that he's unfit to take care of children.
yes he can be as stubborn as a mule
Neither is this.
but he's healing with Clem and the baby.
No he's not? He's really not. He needs to heal BEFORE he gets to Clem and AJ. He needs to go through the bad to get to the good. If he goes through the bad with Clem and AJ, it's only going to affect them in an awful way.
He has his 3rd family now
He has his 3rd surrogate* family now
But let's go back to what you previously said in one of your comments:
yes, he's overprotective of them, don't tell me it's a bad thing, I'm not listening.
I wasn't going… [view original content]
But the thing isn't. healing doesn't mean a smooth process. It's trial and error, and those errors or even trials can fuck Clem up.
And so if Kenny and Clem are family, then that means anyone else could just Clementine as family simply because they reminded them of the past. Kenny had little interaction with Clem in S1 and if it weren't for Lee siding with him, Kenny would have disregarded Clementine's life when it came the time to save her. He literally doesn't want to save a little girl's life all because he didn't like Lee. And what if this route was taken and we get to season 2? Why does he care all of a sudden? Because Clem was a reminder of a better time with his original family. And AJ? It's Kenny's new chance at being a better father to him that he was with Duck. Kenny even says he'll raise him differently and better.
So I'm not sure where this sudden love came from, but it's suspicious as hell and in my opinion, a product of replacement for his previous family. (+Sarita)
He has his 3rd surrogate* family now But let's go back to what you previously said in one of your comments:
Let me know if I've read… more this wrong but this argument is bullshit, surrogate family or not, family is family. This isn't even debateable.
Everything else though is fair game, I agree Kenny is mentally unstable and as he is unfit to raise a child but if you take the Kenny/AJ/Clem ending it seems like Telltale's going down a redemption route with Kenny with the running up the hill scene and the speech he gave about him admitting he was unfit to take care of AJ and Clem (which is a huge step one the way to recovery) and would sacrifice himself for them (personally, I think this would be an awesome route for TT to take ) and if they do take this route Kenny's healing doesn't have to be a traumatic experience which will scar Clementine for years to come if anything it'll bring hope to her, if Kenny shows enough resolve to get over h… [view original content]
If you think about it, it's not entirely nonsensical.
Mike didn't approve of the way Kenny was treating Arvo, he had shown to be very defensive of Arvo throughout Episode 5, Mike helps stop Kenny from beating Arvo after the gunfight, he then tries to speak with Kenny, chases Kenny when he runs after Arvo, and tries to get him to stop beating Arvo again, he showed more worry towards Arvo than determinantly Clementine and determinantly Bonnie after they fall into a frozen lake and need warmth. I think Kenny triggered his anger, he thought Kenny would kill Arvo several times and he's shown to try to be a nice guy which is pretty hypocritical as he steals from the group. He probably decided to leave due to feeling like he didn't have his voice heard, he might've felt like being with the group was worse than being in Howe's, I mean when Kenny and Mike first meet, Kenny pins him to the wall, and it's quite clear that Mike isn't really close to the group and has shown to be a little selfish at times(In Episode 3 if you don't grab the ladder he lets Clementine fall to her death). I think the reason Bonnie ends up coming with him is because she's the closest thing he has to a friend, both being in Howe's for quite a while. To emphasize his voice not being heard, he thought about going somewhere else rather than Wellington, which Kenny instantly declined, as well as said to leave Arvo who Mike had become defensive over. I'm not saying that Kenny is the main reason I think Mike left, but he sure as heck never helped Mike feel like a part of the group in any way, refusing his offer for help in Episode 3.
With Bonnie, I feel it really only makes more sense if Clementine doesn't try to save Luke, in that way Bonnie is mad at Clementine and Kenny, she's mad at Clementine as she blames her for unintentionally determinantly letting Luke die which is pretty irrational, and she doesn't agree with Kenny acting like a tyrannical leader either, and I don't doubt that she's jealous of Jane. It would make more sense that she steals the rest of the supplies if she doesn't like most of the group, I mean everyone in the group are survivalists, they'd take what they can to make sure they themselves live. Kenny and the rest of the group(determinantly not Lee) takes all the food from the Van in Season 1 Episode 2, Clementine steals medicine, a needle and determinantly also steals some bandage from the Cabin Group, Jane determinantly steals Medicine from Arvo's group, in other words, AJ is the only person whose really innocent and isn't a thief, not saying it's justified to steal from your own group though. Mike and Bonnie had pretty much the same mindset, wanting to go to the same location and both being pretty defensive of Arvo due to Kenny's treatment towards him, neither of them really showing much care for the current group members or AJ, Bonnie's only incentive to stay would've been Clementine if she isn't pissed at her because she realizes she influenced a child to try and save a grown man on cracking ice in the middle of large frozen ice cold lake.
Hmmm, what characters did make sense this season? When did people always make sense in real life? :x
Exactly! And that's why when people hate on Kenny for beating up Arvo, i think, ok? But this is a guy with his Russian pals who held the group at gun point, tried to rob them before then trying to kill them and yet the haters critiscise Kenny for beating him up? Maybe it was extreme given the scenario that took place but i've said it before and will again. If i was threatened like the group was, I would HATE whoever it was responsible if he or she had lived and would not treat them with any kindness etc, and i'm actually a very forgiving person but there is a line to forgivenes. Even though Arvo looked the innocent victim of the Russians, he honestly wasn't! He threatens you saying "you will regret this" or words to that effect if you steal from him but as we know, he still blames you for it anyway.
AronDracula
Exactly! And that's why when people hate on Kenny for beating up Arvo, i think, ok? But this is a guy with his Russian pals w… moreho held the group at gun point, tried to rob them before then trying to kill them and yet the haters critiscise Kenny for beating him up? Maybe it was extreme given the scenario that took place but i've said it before and will again. If i was threatened like the group was, I would HATE whoever it was responsible if he or she had lived and would not treat them with any kindness etc, and i'm actually a very forgiving person but there is a line to forgivenes. Even though Arvo looked the innocent victim of the Russians, he honestly wasn't! He threatens you saying "you will regret this" or words to that effect if you steal from him but as we know, he still blames you for it anyway.
Because not everyone is comfortable with the idea that it's okay to hold someone hostage under the assumption that they're 100% responsible for the ambush without listening to their side of the story, continuously beat them up, throw racist slurs, and blame them for everything that goes wrong on the frozen lake, just because he happens to shoots Clementine as a response to how Kenny treated him.
I'd rather see Arvo get away with shooting Clementine than to see the story continuing to justify a grown man's actions for beating up a crippled and scared kid for what his group did and not what Arvo did as an individual. No matter how I look at it, I'll never find Kenny's actions justifiable in any way, especially when his own actions contributed to Arvo shooting Clementine.
Because not everyone is comfortable with the idea that it's okay to hold someone hostage under the assumption that they're 100% responsible … morefor the ambush without listening to their side of the story, continuously beat them up, throw racist slurs, and blame them for everything that goes wrong on the frozen lake, just because he happens to shoots Clementine as a response to how Kenny treated him.
I'd rather see Arvo get away with shooting Clementine than to see the story continuing to justify a grown man's actions for beating up a crippled and scared kid for what his group did and not what Arvo did as an individual. No matter how I look at it, I'll never find Kenny's actions justifiable in any way, especially when his own actions contributed to Arvo shooting Clementine.
Because not everyone is comfortable with the idea that it's okay to hold someone hostage under the assumption that they're 100% responsible … morefor the ambush without listening to their side of the story, continuously beat them up, throw racist slurs, and blame them for everything that goes wrong on the frozen lake, just because he happens to shoots Clementine as a response to how Kenny treated him.
I'd rather see Arvo get away with shooting Clementine than to see the story continuing to justify a grown man's actions for beating up a crippled and scared kid for what his group did and not what Arvo did as an individual. No matter how I look at it, I'll never find Kenny's actions justifiable in any way, especially when his own actions contributed to Arvo shooting Clementine.
I hope next season you have the opportunity to kill them. Lets assume Kenny was as bad as they thought(I don't believe that but lets go that premise) they where still willing to leave two children alone with said crazy person and no supplies. Even if you hate Kenny and think they where right to be afraid that only makes what they did worse, if Kenny was so bad that they had to leave, they should of taken Clementine whether she wanted to go or not. Yes, if you ask they let you come, but they didn't know Clementine was gonna catch them and would of been content leave her. Keep in mind they stole all your supplies and your car, essentially leaving you for dead. They should of left in the shoot Mike option, it wouldn't be too dark or twisted for Clementine because you would just be shooting someone trying to rob you.
Come to think of it, I'm actually not sure whether its worse if your a Kenny supporter or hater, if your a Kenny supporter they almost left him and two innocent children for dead with no supplies in the car he fixed, if your a Kenny hater they left 2 innocent children with an unstable man and no supplies. Either way there scumbags who hopefully froze to death or where shot.
Because not everyone is comfortable with the idea that it's okay to hold someone hostage under the assumption that they're 100% responsible … morefor the ambush without listening to their side of the story, continuously beat them up, throw racist slurs, and blame them for everything that goes wrong on the frozen lake, just because he happens to shoots Clementine as a response to how Kenny treated him.
I'd rather see Arvo get away with shooting Clementine than to see the story continuing to justify a grown man's actions for beating up a crippled and scared kid for what his group did and not what Arvo did as an individual. No matter how I look at it, I'll never find Kenny's actions justifiable in any way, especially when his own actions contributed to Arvo shooting Clementine.
Comments
I use the term 'forever' sarcastically, it's highly unlikely this will last for infinity, just saying. I'm just trying to keep this from dragging on. And to be fair, why shouldn't I, if I can defend him, I will do so?
So he got Alvin and Clem, and they got to Wellington, yes he did get what he wanted, he was happy. Maybe he didn't care what others wanted, but only because he thought Wellington was the definite answer to their problems, not Howe's or Mexico.
I don't think he was irrational 95% of the time. What? He wanted to escape Howe's when everyone was quite comfy there. What? He wanted to look after the baby, considering no-one else knew what to do. What? He wanted to shoot a threat on the spot as they had no way of looking after themselves, never mind a prisoner who had just attacked them.
No. It was understandable that Kenny was pissed and wanted to shout at someone. I don't agree with him shouting at Clem, but combining the two facts together, I can understand how that came about. And when could he apologise? Ep4 he was still pissed and making sure the baby was looked after. He apologised the first chance he got to properly sit down and explain.
Okay, I can agree on that (Mike + Bonnie's reasoning)
And haven't we all got different games really? The game I had, Kenny wasn't a 'bag of dicks' most of the time, because I didn't treat him like a 'bag of dicks' most of the time.
I guess I can't say Arvo? Jane, had no loyalty to the group, and only came back because Clem was a surrogate sister now of hers, funny how she complained about killing the Russian guy, yet never cared about Sarah or Nick. Bonnie as we know was a compulsive liar, she brought the group to Howe's in the first place, then she blamed Clem for Luke's death (seem familiar?). I don't know enough about Mike, other than he preferred the prisoner to his own group, and didn't care for the latter's wellbeing. Luke is the only one who really avoids any flak, bit careless sometimes, but nothing which puts him in the 'worst' category. Kenny? Yeah he had faults, as the others, his looked worse as the group turned against him
No shit?
For all Kenny knew, Wellington could have already fallen. Wellington might not have even existed. They knew for certain a place with food and electricity, yet he wanted to go and run to something that might not even be real or even good. He knew shit all about the people in Wellington and even wants Clementine and AJ to stay there????
Also, Mexico was a joke idea from Clem. Mike wanted to go to Texas. It's not that relevant, honestly, but I thought I should just say it.
I'm sorry, what? Are you trying to tell me that the people who didn't want to risk losing more people or even being caught were comfy at Howe's? Usually shit like this makes me want to quit debating while I'm ahead, but I just really want your reasoning as to why the hell you'd even think such fuckery.
Clarify, please? I'm not sure what part you're talking about. Because if you're talking about no one knowing what to do when Rebecca went into labour, then that's a completely different thing than taking care of a baby.
Oh, please. Do people actually still think that immediately after the shootout, Arvo, who was unarmed, scared, traumatized from watching his sister die, reanimate, then die again, and looks to be weaker than everyone in the group besides Clem and AJ, was an actual threat? He freaking coward behind Luke and Mike when a gun was pointed at him. Sure, they almost died because he lead his group to them, but he wasn't looking for a shoot out. He and his group wanted supplies. When Arvo realizes the group has a baby, he actually tells his group to put the guns down (translated from Russian). Remember how I said Kenny brought the bad out in people? Which is clearly evident all through the season? Arvo shooting Clementine was one of those cases.
He didn't even have a gun. It was indirect.
I honestly can't understand, so we'll agree to disagree on that one.
There are plenty of people in the group who could have looked after AJ for a few minutes. It's not like Kenny had the baby glued to him. When the baby was born, they had an option to stay there for a couple of days or head out first thing in the morning. Either option, there's enough time in both for Kenny to apologize. Even traveling after that (before they run into Arvo) he could have pulled back a little with Clem and apologized. On the walk to Arvo's before their first stop. When they actually stopped and she cleaned out his wound. The walk onwards. There were multiple opportunities for him to apologize yet he waited a few days. The fact that he even yelled at her and told her it was her fault Sarita died would fucking scar her. She even blames herself for Lee's death, Omid's death, and now Kenny wanted to put the blame on someone who was innocent?
The only way Kenny doesn't act like a bag of dicks most of the time is if you agree with him and basically kiss his ass. Sure, people could think that Kenny's idea of going to Wellington would be something they'd like, I did too, but if you disagree with him, he hates it. And mind you, Kenny flips his shit at you no matter what choice you make with Sarita. Also, about Sarita, he was even irrational with her. Wouldn't let her put away a simple box, spoke rudely and ill-mannered to her at many times. Which she called him out for.
Couldn't we say the same for Kenny? Kenny at first didn't seem to care about the group, wanting to keep Clem at the lodge with him because she was a reminder of Duck. He argued against (before giving in) Luke's more safer plan to get out of Howe's despite everyone else advocating it. He didn't want to stay at the observation deck for Rebecca to rest because he wanted to get to the town. Kenny did begin to care for the group or at least some group members, like how he regretted leaving Alvin at Howe's (if you saved him in Ep 2). I'm sure there's a few more, but I can't remember any. But don't forget, Kenny has always been a man to look out for his own. He's shown even in Season 1 how much he had to protect his family, no matter the cost.
Firstly, she barely knew Nick. He turned before she and Clem could even get there, so I don't see how she needed to feel remorseful for telling Clem to put him out of his misery? Or how it's even her fault?
Secondly, I agree with the Sarah stance. I didn't like that at all how she'd leave a traumatized girl to be mauled to death and say "it's the right thing to do" yet show sympathy over a man who was trying to kill the people who brought her in.
That's arguable.
Bonnie only lied once. She didn't betray us since she didn't make any sort of commitment or even a bond with Walt, Clem, or Kenny. She didn't lie after that. In 400 Days, since we control her, we have the option to lie to Leeland or not.
But she did betray us.
No she didn't? Carver could have sent any one of his guards up to the lodge to do what Bonnie did. Carver was coming after the group with the help of his associates. It wasn't Bonnie's idea to bring them back, it was Carver's.
You do realize that Sarita had no chance of surviving, right? Luke did. Because if Bonnie and Clem could somehow make it out of that lake, then so could Luke. It was just bad luck that a walker pulled him down had you chosen to listen to Bonnie. But that's why she's mad, actually. If you cover Luke, she's mad that you didn't listen to her, thinking that her idea would have saved Luke. Of course, there's also the implication that Bonnie and Luke had a thing, which is probably another reason she lashed out at Clementine. But again, like Sarita's situation, there wasn't much a little girl could do. In fact, Bonnie and Clem both should have left Luke to get himself out of there. Whether he had to crawl or let himself go into the water in order to get back out, Bonnie's idea of trying to pull Luke out wasn't just going to work in the first place. And Bonnie's reasoning is much more understandable (thinking her idea would have worked) than Kenny's, but at the same time, both inexcusable for yelling at a little girl who did what she thought was right.
Uh, he preferred to get away from Kenny rather than watch him beat up a defenseless teenager countless times. It wasn't a betrayal to Kenny, it was just a betrayal to Clementine and/or Jane (depending on if either one of them would have wanted to go with them).
Yeah, taking all the supplies was a really big dick move.
Luke's too much of an innocent cupcake.
Besides the fact that he does stuff in awful timing. Like trying to get food at Howe's, but getting caught. And, y'know, Jane.
Kenny is the only one who can exaggerate his faults, not any of the group members. Although my hatred for Jane is up to par with my love for Luke, she did see what he was like. She just made all the wrong moves, resulting in her looking like a bad person and determinantly getting killed.
Right, sorry. I got mixed up with the other user up there. My apologies.
wait what
RIP season 2 writing, at least you sacrificed yourself for the better.
Mike, Bonnie and Arvo were 'secondary characters' so telltale needed to get rid of them in one fell swoop
also it was really annoying because even if you don't take the drugs from Arvo, don't threaten him, are nice to him, even if you tell kenny to stop being mean to him and ask him to calm down you still end up getting shot by him and having no choice in anything (;-; )
Are you saying that he should bang Clem? What the hell?!
Been saying that in several posts.
They left for their own selfish reasons. Not that hard to understand. They had no REAL stake in this broken group. Bonnie follows Luke's lead and after his death didn't want to follow Kenny and was plain fed up with constant group relations problems. It was in her character to just up and leave, she's done it before and probably gonna do it again with Mike.
Mike is just some guy wanting to do right, enough so to get Arvo and himself away from Kenny's temper. Kenny has attacked him before and knew he was breaking. Now you may thinking that Clem is special to them, but wrong. They knew she and the baby were still alive and o.k. that was enough for them.
You really did pick apart everything I said that time... nice work! In all seriousness though, fair enough, I thought Mike said Texas THEN Mexico, my bad. And Howe's was not a confirmed safe haven, the last we saw of it, it had Carver's guards vs 1000 walkers. For all they knew, it could've been swamped with the herd. Wellington was a pretty well known legend (both Christa and Kenny had heard) No smoke without fire.
And okay, comfy was an exaggeration, what I meant was none of the others seemed to actively want to escape Howe's. Only Rebecca, and initially Luke seemed eager to get out of there. The others seemed... content, at least on the surface, I think Kenny was expecting them to all be helping his escape and thinking of a plan, when they mostly just, well, wanted to lay back and wait for Luke.
Well, I presume Rebecca knew what to do, but Kenny was the only one with experience. The others all admitted they didn't know what to do.
Right okay, Arvo hated Clem from the moment she shot his sister, I'm sure that was his way of saying 'Karma', I don't think that was Kenny's influence, and not just because I'm his defender here. But I never stole the supplies off Arvo, and as I can't shoot the S2 writers, instead Arvo comes next. It wasn't practical to keep a prisoner when they're low on supplies and had nowhere to camp, we don't know if Arvo was part of a larger group, if we let him go, could he return a 3rd time? It could be argued that Rebecca died because of the attack, maybe one of the group could have paid closer attention to her before she died, but I'll admit that's a weak point, there's nothing they could have done anyways.
He didn't have a gun... only because we took it off him before.
I think on the walk, he had to lead as he was the one who wanted to go in the first place, if he'd have walked behind talking with Clem, the others might have been turning back and whatnot, just a theory. And didn't he say something when cleaning his eye? Not the official apology, but I could've sworn he said something along the lines of being apologetic? But fair enough, he could have said it earlier, but at least he did say one. Better late than never?
Well, honestly, I agreed with Kenny on most matters, and especially on Wellington, and I'm aware he can be 'a bag of dicks' if you disagree. But he's only human, I'm sure many people here would only help people who helped them.
That's being a little unfair at the ski lodge, he had just met the people, and I think he wanted Clem to stay simply because he knew her. But by the time they were at Howe's he definitely acted for the group. And yes Kenny is a man with priorities. He's understandably (this time) someone who puts his family and cared ones first. But he'll look after the group if they look after his family and cared ones.
I'll give you Nick, as he was turned and she wasn't responsible, but not knowing him isn't an excuse, she didn't know the Russian guy either.
Well, she betrayed Walter's kindness, but she is a liar, yes Leland was determinant, but it was still a choice which she went through with flawlessly. But her actions in Ep5, especially if she liked Clem, was another example of her being a liar and not caring who to.
Yes I know Carver headed the scout party, but Bonnie was the one scouting the ski lodge, she could have said it was empty, especially considering it had a nice man called Walter and Luke, whom she liked, living in it.
And yes Sarita was a goner. Luke wasn't. But Bonnie's plan was stupid. A little girl couldn't pull a grown man out of a lake and across cracking ice. Then she ended Luke's life my walked over to him herself. While Luke could have been saved, Clem played no part in his death, just like Sarita's and Bonnie is just as wrong as Kenny is to shout at Clem, even more so as she indirectly killed Luke by stepping on the cracked ice.
Arvo was asking for it, he taunted Kenny since the gunfight.
And yeah, Luke is too good of a guy to do anything bad. Just wrong time, wrong place situations.
Alright, I don't need to start on Jane because you hate her too thank god, but her actions was out of order. She pushed and she pushed and she pushed. Then she manipulated Kenny into breaking him. That was out of order, I don't care what he did, she pushed him to that point which he wouldn't have reached normally, I can't forgive her for playing with a broken man's emotions, no matter how much you hate him, she went too far that time
I think Mike spoke to Bonnie when she pissed in the woods.
And for all they knew, it could have been just a rumor or someone misunderstood what it completely was. Only two people out of all the people we met had heard of Wellington, that isn't enough people to deem it a "well known legend."
Except they were? Why would they join in on conversation and even make suggestions as to how they could escape in a more safer manner if they didn't want to leave just yet? All of them wanted leave and they all did.
You still haven't clarified on whether you meant taking care of a baby or help give birth to a baby.
That's probably another reason why he shot her, actually. But Kenny's influence was still there, it's why he was leaving in the first place. Not to mention that Kenny wanted to leave Arvo there with no supplies or anything to survive, it's understandable that Arvo didn't want that to happen. He had a hatred for Kenny, he was beat up by Kenny, and he wanted to get away from him.
Uh, what? Rebecca was on the brink of dying before Arvo even made his way up to them. She was done for whether or not Arvo's group was coming. That "argument" is redundant.
Do you honestly think his group wouldn't have supplied him with another one? Or if it even was his own gun? For all we knew, it could have been his sister's or even one of the other men's. Look at the guns they already had, too. If they could somehow get those, I'm sure they would have another hand-gun somewhere with them.
Redundant.
No he doesn't. You might be mixed up with some dialogue where once Clementine takes off his bandage, she can apologize and he'll tell her she doesn't need to apologize since she's not the one who messed up his eye.
If only Kenny had that mindset when she tried to save Sarita, we wouldn't be having this entire discussion. At least he did apologize, though.
Agreeing with him is fine, it's just how he acts when you don't agree is what makes me think he's irrational.
Did he though? As far as he was concerned, he just wanted to get out of Carver's. He didn't even (determinately) care if Alvin was okay and fit to travel at the time he wanted to leave, until the last episode where he said he felt guilty for it. His plan was to also just stroll through the heard of walkers and shoot their way out. As dangerous as that is, more people would have died had Jane not brought up the idea to cover themselves in guts.
Except this wasn't a "look out for mine, and I'll look out for yours" case. They all needed to get out of there, not just Kenny and his, or just the cabin group, or just Mike and Jane. It was everyone.
An excuse for what exactly? She didn't do anything to Nick, she didn't kill him, she was teaching Clem that she needed to do the hard things in life. The Russian guy and Nick are two completely different things, and there's no point to make with them.
Under the orders of Carver who she trusted.
Um, flawlessly? In her tone of voice, you could tell she didn't want to lie. She sounds guilty, she stutters also. I'm not sure where you got "flawlessly" from. Even after she hit Dee, she says (without our input) "I'm sorry, I need you both." It sucks that the game doesn't give you an option to confess to it being an accident instead of "it doesn't matter" or "I had to do it."
What exactly would she be lying about? She apologized for lying about who she was back in EP 3 since her intentions were to bring back the group to what she thought was safety. She trusted Carver at that time, he most likely didn't do anything for her to not trust him. She thought his intentions were good, also.
But in EP 5, that's when she betrayed the group. Even if she liked Clem, she didn't lie about anything. In fact, she didn't want to leave Clem's side (if you didn't manage to piss her off with Luke), telling Mike to not touch her when he tried pulling her away. It wasn't until Kenny had some outside that she ran, thinking he'd kill her.
Again, she trusted Carver. She thought Howe's was as safe as it was going to get. Water, food, electricity, shelter. She didn't know the greater danger because she wasn't exposed to it. That's why when she found out he killed Reggie, and she went to him and he told her he did in a "matter of fact" way, she didn't like it. Her trust for Carver was gone, but in her eyes, redeemable. It wasn't until Kenny beat the shit out of Luke and Kenny, did she make up her mind about Carver and enthuse that they left that night.
Trust me, I know. But to her, she thought it would save him. Whether she did it or Clem, she thought pulling him out of there was going to save him. Kenny, on the other hand, had no way of saving Sarita. He didn't have a plan nor could Sarita maneuver herself out of that situation to save herself. There's a big difference as to why Bonnie and Kenny yelled at Clementine, it's not the same.
LMAO WHAT? PLEASE tell me you're trolling. PLEASE. Arvo didn't answer Kenny's questions out of fear! He even ran on the ice, risking his own life, trying to get away from him! And that was the only things he did-- both out of FEAR, to """taunt""" Kenny. That "fuck you" was out of frustration, unnecessary blame for Luke's death, and being thrown around like a rag doll by him multiple times. Not to mention if you fail to get Kenny to rejoin the group at the camp fire scene, he fucking punches the shit out of Arvo when he yells instead of doing anything but. If Kenny has to use physical force to stop someone from yelling, then you can't tell me he's not unstable OR irrational.
Breaking him? Kenny was already broken, he's been broken for two years. I mean, now that I think about what she did with hiding the baby, she tried to show Clementine what could happen to her had she even accidentally caused the baby to die. If he could say some rude and unthoughtful things to Clementine for Sarita's death, imagine what he'd do if she had gotten the baby killed. Sure, you could use the excuse "but Kenny wouldn't do that to a kid!" But he even threatened to slap her for saying something ungrateful about Lee in EP 5.
Saying things about his family in the car wasn't needed, no matter how much she was trying to make a point to Clementine. I get that. Honestly, I don't even know why I dislike Jane besides the Sarah situation. That's actually the only thing I didn't like her for and the whole baby situation, but now, a year and a half on where I understand it more, there's not much to hate about her imo. I kinda like Jane, and I wouldn't have thought in a million years that I would say that.
I want to make it clear that I don't hate Kenny. His intentions are good, but he's just too irrational and unstable to take care of a little girl and a baby. Especially with a short temper and fragile mind, he has healing to do before being with Clem again or even taking care of the baby.
I guess that they felt if push came to shove then it would still be a 2 v 1 against Arvo, meaning from a purely survival point of view, going with Arvo was the best option.
Okay, but Howe's was deemed a threat when they last saw it. It was that or Wellington, it was in the area, plus it was also rumoured walkers don't walk in the cold, a safe community PLUS inactive walkers, seems a safe bet for two children
Because they had nothing else to do in the pen. If Kenny hadn't brought up the subject, I don't think any of the others would have, at least not until after Alvin's death (determinately). Either way, they were bored and they got in on the conversation.
I meant looking after the baby, but his experience of labour also helped too.
And yes, Arvo wanted to get away from Kenny, I agree with that. But his shooting of Clem (who was unarmed by that point) was pure revenge for his sister, not all people acted like a dick to Arvo and they still got shot.
Like I say, it was a weak argument, but one of the others would've noticed her dying and taken Alvin away without the distraction of an armed group
No, I reckon that was originally Arvo's gun, or the crappy one the group gave him. After he told them a little girl stole it off him, they're not going to trust him with another gun are they?
And you're right I think, someone apologised, I think it was Clem though. And you can't expect him to have a sound mindset after he just lost the love of his life, undoubtedly the woman that brought him back to humanity, cut him some slack.
He doesn't like it when you disagree, but I don't think Kenny particularly wants to travel and survive with people who are just going to go against him, I don't blame him for being like that, even if it is a little selfish
I don't think anyone knew what state Alvin was in, apart from Rebecca, it's a miracle he was still alive. And yes it was his original plan, and it was reckless, luckily Jane refined the plan, although I would've hope Clem might've mentioned something if it got that far. The only other option was to wait for Luke, who wasn't reliable to Kenny, (all Kenny knew was that he disappeared when the group got attacked) so it's understandable Kenny doesn't want to put his trust in Luke yet.
Yes, but the group and Sarita but got on well, that meant a tick in Kenny's book.
And like I said, Nick was irrelevant in the argument. But it doesn't matter whether she knew the Russian guy or not, he was a clear threat to the people she did know.
Did she trust Carver? Surely she must have known he had a screw loose, wasn't she in on the 1st escape of the cabin group? Or at least question why they'd escaped?
And alright, I couldn't think of a word, it's been more than 400 days since I've played 400 days, but what I meant was she still lied, the stuttering was just through the shock of killing Dee, not because she was lying through her teeth.
Well, technically she didn't lie. In fact, she didn't say anything. She gave no indication to Clem that her and Mike was going to leave with everything in the night, including the prisoner. Thank god for than random string thing and the window, or they'd have been long gone. Their betrayal was deceitful though, is perhaps the better word
Kenny beat the shit out of Luke and Kenny??!?! You are so blatantly anti-Kenny that you're now lying to make him look even worse! .. Okay, I know you meant Carver, just thought I'd add a bit of humour in. And okay, so she didn't know Carver was a bad cookie, but how come she didn't smell a rat when they went looking for the group, with guns, and then Carver murdering Walter and perhaps Alvin, was there maybe not a little clue there?
Well Kenny turned around to see, Sarita stood there bit and Clem looking sheepish and scared behind her. He never witnessed what happened, and if you lopped her arm off, that looks even worse. Bonnie had the full view and they had all the time in the world, instead she went in and got Luke killed. Then blamed it on Clem. It's not the same completely, but both unfairly blamed Clem, Bonnie was worse in my opinion, SHE caused Luke's death and pushed the blame onto Clem!
No I'm not trolling, that usually looks like a bad attempt at me trying to be funny, but never mind. When someone asks you a question, as simple as 'how far?' surely you just answer it? He didn't seem scared when Clem pushed for an answer? He knew not answering was making Kenny angry, SO JUST ANSWER. And the running bit, don't get me started on that. Why was he running? It wasn't to get away from Kenny, he hadn't done anything at that point? He's worse than half the Jane fans on here, making him look bad for nothing. When you're on an icy lake, the last thing you do is run? How suspicious does that look? Trying to break the ice and get away? Running for reinforcements in the house? That was his own stupid fault. We never saw how Luke ended up in the drink, did he try hobbling after Kenny to stop him, only for the ice to break? Arvo running made the tense situation worse for no reason whatsoever. The "Fuck you" was ridiculous, you don't say that to an angry man and expect to get away, he was playing silly buggers by that point. And I always got Kenny back by the fire (you may have guessed) I never saw the scene, but surely Arvo's screaming could've drawn walkers? Maybe beating him was a bit too far, but so's screaming your head off. I think Arvo was just pissing Kenny off by that point, remember Kenny didn't WANT to drag Arvo around, he wanted the quick solution..
Oh no, this whole thing has resulted in me convincing you to like Jane! That wasn't my intention! Jane didn't just 'accidently' kill Alvin. She's repeatedly shown she doesn't really care about it, and disapproves of having a baby in the group. Kenny knew that, and when - the one time she had him- she walks through the door without him. JUST after slagging Kenny off over his family. I don't think Kenny was in the wrong to think she had done something. She's just pushed him over his family, now she's done the baby in, to get at him. And I don't tend to go for that card, but Kenny wouldn't kill Clem. Some parents are for slapping their kids to discipline them, maybe that's what Kenny had in mind when he said it to Clem? I never got that so I can't comment.
And okay, that's reassuring. But I don't think he's incapable of looking after Clem and Alvin. He is a parent, broken or not, he knows how to look after kids. And he loves them both, and yes, he's overprotective of them, don't tell me it's a bad thing, I'm not listening. I feel once the people calling him and doubting and disagreeing with him are gone, he's okay! He just wants to look after his family. And by Ep5, that's who Clem and AJ are, Yes he's got a short temper, yes he's been through hell, yes he can be as stubborn as a mule, but he's healing with Clem and the baby. Nine days in and he's smiling and joking, it's not it, but it's progress. He has his 3rd family now, he's happy.
But for the love of God, let's pray Clem or AJ don't die in S3, or we'll be back here again
I'm not sure how, considering all the walkers migrated to Parker's Run. It's the reason why the place was deserted when Jane and Clem get there.
1) They had no idea if the community was actually safe or not.
2) I'm pretty sure a known source of shelter, food, water, and electricity (Howe's) is a much more safer bet than a place they knew hardly about or how to get there. We wouldn't have known if it was in the area, it took them 9 days to get there. Jane did mention getting back to Howe's in a day, but I'm sure they would have stopped for a bit to rest up.
So your defense to what I said is that they were bored? Do you even know what you're defending anymore? It's like your pulling these random assumptions out of your ass and playing them off as an actual argument. what????? They weren't bored, how the hell would they even be bored? Kenny didn't even bring up the idea, the conversation most likely started after they saw Luke.
I'm sure they knew the basics of looking after a baby, Kenny just had experience of it.
Hate to break it to you, but it really wasn't. It wasn't that reason alone. I mean, one of the options is to yell for Kenny and Jane. And when she does, he shoots her immediately so he's not caught by Kenny. And I don't think Jane would beat the shit out of someone she was defending for wanting to leave with their supplies. Kenny would, though.
But moments before that, they had an argument with Kenny because he wanted to take the baby from her and she declined. Besides, the group probably thought it was better for Rebecca to hold the baby since she didn't have a gun aimed at her and was sitting down. (Nor was she in the middle of all of it like Clem was).
This one's a little shaky. They did want to steal supplies off another group, so it wouldn't surprise me if they wanted to arm everyone for the occasion. Then again, we don't know much about Arvo's group, so that one's definitely arguable.
Sure, he just lost someone, but Kenny had much more of a reason to live now that he wanted to look after a defenseless baby. Besides, Kenny had been aggressive even before Sarita died-- or even stepped into his life. Surely Clementine apologizing for something she didn't do would have struck a chord in his mind and he would have apologized for blaming her.
I'm sure people would have known since Rebecca would have told them, or Carver would have boasted about it. And by the sound of Kenny in Episode 5, it looks like he knew about it too.
I'm not sure Clem would have remembered without Jane bringing it up. It happened two years ago, and you'd think it would have stuck in her head, but she would have brought it up sooner if she did.
It doesn't matter if he wasn't reliable to Kenny, he was reliable to everyone else. And I don't see why he wouldn't be reliable, since he proved to Kenny that he wasn't a "flake" by returning to get the group out. Kenny must have known what Luke was going to do, but thought he wouldn't be able to do it, because of how Kenny belittles him in the truck. Which is probably why Kenny told him to "take a hike." Luke must've pitched to Kenny what he was going to do and Kenny disagreed, thinking he could shoot Carver's men and get it over with.
I don't think so. From what we saw, whenever Sarita enthused about the group seeming like good people, he disagreed with her.
So why exactly did you bring Nick up, then?
And I'm guessing that Jane never had to directly kill a person before, which is probably why she felt bad about it.
She did, that's why she stayed in the community when Luke asked her to join them. She knew there was a screw loose with Carver, yes, which is probably why she was planning on leaving with them too, but I don't think she knew he was that messed up until the incident with Reggie and Kenny. She even says that Carver wasn't always like that, which probably gave her more reason to stay. When the time came for Carver to make a move on the group, Bonnie says (in the armory) that she wasn't expecting any of that to happen and that she just wanted the group in a safe place, obviously because she cared about them. She'd made bonds with them while they were all at the community in the first place.
Bonnie ended up staying because she thought it was easier to "try and fix something that's broken than to start all over."
-_-
okay
Sure, it's bad enough that she was shocked about killing Dee, and how Leeland would react, but of course it would have been pressure to her to go as far as to lie about it with all the guilt she had.
Yes, a much better way of saying what Bonnie had done.
Funny thing, actually. As I was reading over my argument just a second ago, I noticed that mistake. It's too funny to edit out though.
He must have shown some indication that we was losing it in their search for the group, but Bonnie was just in denial about it. Like someone mentioned before, Bonnie's the type of person that needs to feel safe. It could have been that this new side of Carver made her feel like nothing could get to her since he was so... "tough." Not to mention the community he provided for her and others, she probably didn't want to seem ungrateful too.
I honestly don't think you're understanding the difference. It's COMPLETELY different from each other, and Kenny's was much worse than Bonnie's. Bonnie blamed Clem because she didn't listen to her + she thought Clem was light enough to go and help him. So not listening to her, and feeling pissed that Clem could have possibly saved him (since she guessed it would have), is much more understandable.
Kenny, on the other hand, is pissed at Clementine for both scenarios! And for what?! If you don't cut off her hand, he tells her Sarita is going to die because of her, DESPITE LEAVING THROUGH THE HERD BEING HIS PLAN! Kenny is irrational in both scenarios, and sure, maybe cutting off Sarita's hand and Kenny getting pissed about that is a little more understandable, but it's still irrational as hell. At least Bonnie had a basis of why it was Clem's fault, Kenny had literally no basis at all. She was dead the moment that walker bit into her skin and there was nothing no one could do about it.
I don't even see how it's "taunting" him in the first place? Like I said he was scared of Kenny. Not Clementine, KENNY. That's why when she pushed for an answer, he responded.
Kenny had a gun to his back, the hell do you mean he wasn't trying to get away from him? He was already moving away from him, and not to mention the walkers behind them, which probably made him want to run faster.
What are you even going on about? Honestly, at this point, I don't even think you know what you're saying.
I explained why he ran multiple times, but more perfectly in my previous argument:
So tell me, why else would he run on the ice and risk his life? There isn't a logical answer other than the fact that he wanted to get away from Kenny.
what
Yes, actually, we did. As Clem walks, she steps on the thin part of the ice and stops. That's when Luke tells her to keep going, walking directly where she was walking. Now of course it didn't cave in on her because she's lighter than Luke and she only carried a hand gun. Luke, who then stepped on the thin ice, was carrying an AK-47 (which I could only assume is heavy) and weighs a lot more than Clementine does.
no lmao, Mike was already chasing after him. I don't think Luke would be stupid enough to follow suit when he knew Mike was capable of stopping him if he had to.
Are you trying to say Arvo wasn't angry too? Did you see the death stare he gave to Clem? Harry Potter was angry as hell with the way Kenny was treating him and bucked up. A simple "fuck you" shouldn't have sent Kenny on a fist-throwing spree when the man has said worse to Arvo himself.
You don't abuse a kid and expect him not to say something back.
Don't you watch walkthroughs of the game when you try to back up your arguments? Or even explore other choices? I'm sure it could solidify your evidence. Of course a scream is going to draw walkers, no doubt. I honestly don't get why he screamed in the first place, but knocking the kid out was way too far.
And by "that point," you mean at the house? Funny, because by "that point," Kenny had the chance to drown Arvo. He even threatens to do it. So if he really wanted the quick solution, then he would have done it.
Eh, I've been leaning towards her anyway.
"Doesn't really care about it"? Are we going to smooth over the fact that one of the reasons she wanted to go to Howe's was because there was baby formula there? Or that she moved the baby into another room so it could sleep peacefully without the hassle of Mike talking? Jane is all about survival, sure, but that doesn't make her a heartless bitch. If you saved her, she actually takes the baby with her and Clem despite it not even being hers. She could have left the baby in that car if she wanted to, but she didn't.
And sure, she had her worries about a baby being in the group at first, but how exactly does Kenny know this? Kenny was too busy blaming Clementine and feeling sorry for himself over Sarita, so no one would have told him.
You know, I've watched the argument in the car countless times and it may appear that Jane had egged Kenny on talking about his family, but Kenny actually starts with her. Not only is he unnecessarily rude to her in the beginning (when Clem wakes up), and she manages to keep a cool composure, but he literally pushes her feet off the dashboard of a car that isn't even his-- nor does that matter, simply because he doesn't want to go to Howe's.
Not only does that start some childish insults, but Kenny attacks her first, telling her that she's nothing and no one cares about her, which prompts her to fight back and talk about his family.
Even after all this arguing, Jane actually attempts to apologize! Except she can't because Kenny cuts her off and tells her the cars could have fuel and they need it. So obviously, she's not as heartless as you're making her out to be.
Jane has never shown ANY indication that Kenny would even know of that she wanted to get rid of the baby. I mean, she even showed sympathy over killing a man she didn't know who'd been shooting at them. And you want to tell me that her killing a baby on purpose seems plausible? hAH
After he went after her first.
lmao
"to get at him."
It wasn't to get at him purely for revenge, it was so show Clem what he was capable of had someone ever rubbed him the wrong way. She was showing her how dangerous he could be if she ever slipped up and that he was unstable. Jane herself even admits that she didn't know he was going to go as far as trying to kill her, so obviously he proved to be even more unstable than she originally thought.
And you think he's safe with Clem? Sure, when he's all peaches and cream, he's a good man. But the thing is, he's not peaches and cream. He can act like he is, but seriously, he's not. Once Kenny's angry, he doesn't care if you're a kid or not. He fucking hurt Clementine so badly (mentally, not physically, thank God) when he blamed her for Sarita's death. Hell, he's even reckless enough that when he was beating the shit out of Arvo, he accidentally hit her. She's not safe around him, she shouldn't be near him, and Jane was trying to prove that to her.
I couldn't ever see Kenny kill Clem purposely. Not even out of sheer rage like he did with Jane. But with his mindset, the possibility of it happening accidentally doesn't seem too out of reach.
Notice how you said some parents? Kenny hasn't got claim on Clementine or AJ, nor is he the parent. He doesn't have the right to lay a figure on her out of discipline.
oh dear god please be joking
Being able to keep a child and baby by his side, getting food or water for them, and attending to their basic needs, doesn't exactly mean he knows how to take care of a kid. Taking care of a kid also comes with the responsibility of treating them properly. Do you really think Kenny's going to handle a situation where Clem screws up without blowing a fuse and making her feel like shit for it? You saw the way he spoke to her about Sarita and she didn't even do anything but her best. That's no way to treat a child who only tried to do the right thing and save the person he loves.
Kenny needs to understand that death is apart of life and you can't stop it from happening entirely. And until he does, he's not fit to handle a child who isn't perfect and can't keep the world around her alive, let alone a baby, who's going to grow into a toddler, and appear as more of a threat to those he loves.
I like how you told me previously that Clem was a surrogate sister to Jane, but neglected the fact that Clem was a surrogate child to Kenny. And Alvin Junior? Does that not remind you of the name he gave Duck? Kenny Junior? Another surrogate child. And hell, I'll even go as far as Sarita. I'm not going to deny the fact that he loved her, but if you hack off Sarita's arm and she's dying on the ground, Kenny, who's in denial about her dying, even says "I won't be left alone again." Surrogate wife? Eh.
Oh my GOD.
No one has EVER learned from a person who always agreed with them. NO ONE. You don't get to take out all the factors that makes Kenny mad and say "see!! he's a good lil cupcake, i promise!!"
That's like saying "well, if Rebecca had never left Howe's and raised that baby with Carver, then Carver wouldn't have tried to kill everyone! Haha! Life is good!!"
Hell, take misogyny, misandry, rapists, murderers, racists, homophobes, alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, and Donald Trump off the face of the Earth and I'll be just as happy as Kenny is when people don't disagree, call out, confront, or doubt him.
Oh, what? You can't do that, right? Because it's literally impossible? Oh yeah. I'm just going to have to deal with those.
Bummer.
Noo! It cut off the rest of my reply! I nEED TO TYPE THE REST OF IT OUT AGAIN FUckCKICEJCk
Part 2, I guess:
What exactly makes them family, again? He "takes care" of them by attending to basic needs but that doesn't make them family.
This isn't helping the fact that he's unfit to take care of children.
Neither is this.
No he's not? He's really not. He needs to heal BEFORE he gets to Clem and AJ. He needs to go through the bad to get to the good. If he goes through the bad with Clem and AJ, it's only going to affect them in an awful way.
He has his 3rd surrogate* family now
But let's go back to what you previously said in one of your comments:
I wasn't going to say that over-protectiveness is a bad thing, considering they live in the damn apocalypse, it's quite actually a good thing. But you telling me that you won't listen gives me more than enough reason not to continue with this argument. You've pulled assumption out of assumption, reached far into the depths of fuckery for counter-arguments, and tried to taint characters who tried to expose Kenny/get away from Kenny, all to defend a man who blamed a little girl that did everything in her power to save his girlfriend. It's seriously concerning how far you're willing to go to defend a character who's guilty of everything I pointed out: His instability, irrationality, and being unfit to take care of children. All you've thrown back is things that don't make sense and seem made up, all just to defend Kenny. And for what? Look, it's fine to have a favourite character who's problematic, but you can't defend everything he pulls out of his hat just because he's your favourite.
Hell, one of my favourite characters of all time is Handsome Jack, and I know he's problematic as fuck. I couldn't even try to defend his actions even if I wanted to.
But anyway, I've proven continuously that Kenny is unstable, irrational, and unfit to take care of a child, let alone a baby that'll grow into a screaming toddler and cause more tragedy for his loves ones. Kenny needs to heal before he could ever get to take care of them again.
So until you understand this, this will be my last argument with you on this topic. It was fun until you reached too far for a defense. Have a nice day, pal.
I couldn't agree more with your reasoning of why Kenny is unstable and irrational, unfit to look after people, and should be held responsible for many things but refuses to take any responsibility.
The more I read them, the more I find myself thinking "Damn, Kenny is perhaps one of the most insufferable and unlikable characters in the Walking Dead universe."
You seriously read all of my posts, despite the length?
Damn.
Take the medal, son.
Cheers. It was a good read.
I'm glad it was, you're welcome.
Most of the things in the last season didn't make very much sense. They just tried to salvage what was left of the series by then imho
ftfy
Hey! I did too!
Let me know if I've read this wrong but this argument is bullshit, surrogate family or not, family is family. This isn't even debateable.
) and if they do take this route Kenny's healing doesn't have to be a traumatic experience which will scar Clementine for years to come if anything it'll bring hope to her, if Kenny shows enough resolve to get over his past that could be a hugely impactful for Clem and be hugely useful
Everything else though is fair game, I agree Kenny is mentally unstable and as he is unfit to raise a child but if you take the Kenny/AJ/Clem ending it seems like Telltale's going down a redemption route with Kenny with the running up the hill scene and the speech he gave about him admitting he was unfit to take care of AJ and Clem (which is a huge step one the way to recovery) and would sacrifice himself for them (personally, I think this would be an awesome route for TT to take
lesson for the future. To give a final judgement would be a little hasty when it's been hinted that he's on the way to recovery and by the end of Episode 5, he's realised his problem. But you've been totally right in saying he's been a total asshat to everyone up to the end of Episode 5.
Alright, as this could be the final reply, I'll try and swing it back to what the original argument was.. providing I can remember..
The herd didn't migrate to Parker's Run, I'm thinking the ones there maybe followed Clem and co from the Caravan park, where Sarah+Luke was. The numbers seen at PR were too small to be the herd. I stand by my original point that Howe's COULD still have been swamped with the herd
Howe's was not a safe option. Due to the herd and the presence of Carver's guards. For all Kenny knew, Wellington could have only been a day away as well. Wellington was well known, it was in a cold setting, and must have been well supplied and guarded, for it to last this long.
Of course, don't ridicule me. They're locked in a small pen, with nothing to do, if there's a heated argument going on, you'll join in, is that that hard to believe? (And yes I make assumptions, that's pretty much was S2 was. I'm not saying they're right, but some are highly likely, as this one^^^)
Okay, but there's a lot more to just knowing the basics, minus Rebecca, none seemed too capable of being guardians.
Why would you shoot Clem?.. because you're pissed at Kenny, does this guy have a brain? They're two different people, you don't shoot one because of the other. That's a silly argument (and don't you dare say "All of yours is" - That's uncalled for..)
Okay, (Rebecca/death/baby) fair enough
Not really, I mean I don't know Arvo's group, and I'm banned from making assumptions. But I'd assume they wouldn't trust Arvo the kid, who was robbed by a little girl - hmm?
I think it did strike a chord afterwards, then leading to the by-the-camp scene, but okay, he should have said sorry earlier
The plan was for Alvin to come back with Clem, so I'll assume they thought he was fit enough, or they expected Clem to fireman's lift him outta there. And Luke was the one who suggested they might have to leave Kenny as well, this isn't exclusively Kenny being selfish.
I agree (Clem/Jane/Plan), but Kenny's plan was using the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity of the herd distracting the guards for a day or two. As opposed to Luke's plan which was to find a gap in guard duty? Hope they didn't notice an empty pen? And then hope they didn't send another search party?
As for Luke, Kenny didn't fully trust him to execute his plan properly, and in all fairness, he didn't, he got caught
But I think as Sarita got on with them, Kenny would put up with them
I made a mistake bringing Nick up, I'm not perfect!
As for the Bonnie/Carver stuff, I'm gonna skip pass that as the original post was about Kenny. BUT I did read what you put and I mostly agree with what you say.
Okay, so Kenny is in complete denial because he knows that Sarita was doomed either way and couldn't be saved, due to this, he pushes the blame onto Clem, that's because he can't accept it was nobody's fault. I think I got it in a nutshell. I'll come back to this in my sign off. However, Bonnie was still in the wrong as her plan was a stupid one, even more stupid than escaping through a herd with a gun in one hand, and crossed fingers in the other, as some may argue
italic text
Kenny had a gun on him... But he wasn't going to shoot him? Why would he just randomly shoot him? As for the walkers, they were miles away, why run? Maybe it was because he was scared, suddenly now, and not before though. But what a stupid, stupid thing to do, his actions were STUPID and UNCALLED for, I only wish Kenny had knocked some SENSE into Arvo, he clearly has none.
Luke didn't notice the crack? Maybe because he was to busy looking at the commotion, that's an assumption dontkillme, but it's not that hard to imagine
Yes, but you see, Arvo is a PRISONER, and you have to play the game. When a prisoner, you have to play along with your captor, you don't antagonise him, and say "fuck you" and expect nothing in return. If Arvo wants to get angry that's fine, but that means Kenny the captor is entitled to beat the crap out of him. I'd do the same if someone said 'fuck you' to me
I do watch other walkthroughs. Some have similar choices, and others don't cover every possibility. I do try to watch them all, but there's ALOT of different options. Usually I check the scenes before I write, but it already takes me an hour to do this, and that's not when the laptop closes the page on me. It's laziness on my part, but I try not to fight a scene I don't know
And Kenny didn't drown Arvo, because he knew that would have been the end of the group. Maybe Kenny was trying to keep the peace by keeping Arvo intact? HE wanted the quick solution, but the group didn't. Maybe for once he wasn't being totally unreasonable?
Oh (Jane)
I think the baby formula was just to keep Clem content. She showed some signs of caring for it of course, but the general aura (?) I got was that she wasn't really a big fan of having a baby around. I'm sure Kenny must have picked up on it, if not in the scenes we didn't see. And she is cold, not a heartless bitch, but she can turn her emotions of like that
Okay, I guess that's the part when he calls her for not caring, something like that (yes I didn't watch, but I remember the scene), and by that point, it was two adults and two kids, I think he wanted to just get to Wellington and not have the 'group' split anymore. But hey it's an assumption, I guess that discredits it, who knows? I seem to remember Kenny asking 'Are you alright?' first to Jane? Like I say, I know she isn't heartless, but she can switch off just as easy, Clem opens her up a bit in Ep5, hence we see a warmer side (a lukewarm side... sorry, I'll see myself out)
I was speaking as to how Kenny would see the situation, hence killing the baby, and as she walked in, she didn't seem overly distraught. I know why she did it really, as you explained. And Jane had the knife, and used the knife, that was only going to end with death at that point, why'd she pull it out if she thought it was going to be non-lethal? And the elbow scene is unfair, Clem threw herself in there, which was reckless itself. You can't blame him for that.
I don't think he could ever accidently kill Clem, even in rage. There wouldn't be a fight before hand for it to be accidental, she is a kid.
Yeah, I guess he doesn't, I was just challenging your statement, (that's debating, not me trying to be stubborn)
He's not incapable. Ep4/5 was a really stressful time, there was no time to relax and take things easily, something was constantly happening and emotions ran high. Given time, like the endings, I think he'll sort himself out, YOU may disagree, as will many others, but I think he'll come back around (Or at least start too, maybe not like full circle). I think Kenny gets his redemption in his endings.
No, I just think that they're calling him Alvin, and jr out of respect to his late father, I don't think there's a Duck reference in there. And maybe Sarita was his surrogate wife, but that's a two-way thing. I'm sure she wouldn't mind being labelled that, as Kenny a 'surrogate husband', who knows how close they were?
Okay, but seeing Kenny in his natural relaxed state, the results are good. So the problem comes with argumentative adults who disagree with him. Kenny will always have that argumentative side too, but that's okay, compared to stabbing every single one, which he won't do again. Being in a group, and having everyone in it saying the opposite to what you say and disagreeing with you, can make you angry. I know this, (kinda like when you get people saying how much they agree with you, and I get 0 likes... Okay it's sarcasm, don't call me out on egotistical issues, it's a British thing)
In the apocalypse, the people who are around you for long periods of time, become a sort of 'extended family'. It reaches a stage where you care for the people like a family
Right okay. I won't listen that was not meant to be a statement on how I read your things. I read them with great interest, and I do learn things as you do make good points. I won't listen was JUST for the little over protectiveness statement. I want that cleared up, I'm not a bigot. For the sake of debate I don't always show that I agree with some points. It may give the impression that in my head, Kenny is some immortal (he got lucky) god who can do no wrong. He isn't. He's far from it. The Sarita situation was his lowest point, he was in the wrong to blame Clem, I know that. All I said on the matter, was that I understand the psychology about it. I never agreed with him that it was Clem's fault. He has got a temper, he has got a family-first attitude, he's had that since S1Ep1.
But he's not unstable, like malicious characters such as The Stranger, or Carver. He's lost two families and he's clinging onto a 3rd. That'd take anyone to a dark place.
He's not irrational on some of his decisions, but that comes down to whether you agree with them or not. The Arvo situation for me was Kenny talking sense, same with Wellington. If you disagree that's fine, you're not wrong. No-one's right either. And he's fit to look after Clem and AJ, you can't just balance it off the worst times that you've seen.
The problem with S2, is that the details, all lie to assumption. Whether you stole from Arvo or not for example, that can make him a victim who came with his group to reclaim what was his, or it can make him a hypocritical villain. It's all down to assumption.
In short, if this is the end, I enjoyed it, and I'm glad that you replied to all of my posts, you did raise several points that I found myself agreeing to (it may not have looked it, but I don't show it in the heat of an argument), Kenny isn't perfect, but he's not the worst either. It all depends on the angle you look at him from. Yes, we both disagree with each other, and that's fine, maybe I did pull some 'interesting facts' which never existed before, excuse me, but the core of what I said I still stand by and for the most part, I am right in my facts. Thank you for discussing it and thank you again for keeping it civil and not turning it into a slanging match. You have a nice day too, InfiniteDebate
But the thing isn't. healing doesn't mean a smooth process. It's trial and error, and those errors or even trials can fuck Clem up.
And so if Kenny and Clem are family, then that means anyone else could just Clementine as family simply because they reminded them of the past. Kenny had little interaction with Clem in S1 and if it weren't for Lee siding with him, Kenny would have disregarded Clementine's life when it came the time to save her. He literally doesn't want to save a little girl's life all because he didn't like Lee. And what if this route was taken and we get to season 2? Why does he care all of a sudden? Because Clem was a reminder of a better time with his original family. And AJ? It's Kenny's new chance at being a better father to him that he was with Duck. Kenny even says he'll raise him differently and better.
So I'm not sure where this sudden love came from, but it's suspicious as hell and in my opinion, a product of replacement for his previous family. (+Sarita)
If you think about it, it's not entirely nonsensical.
Mike didn't approve of the way Kenny was treating Arvo, he had shown to be very defensive of Arvo throughout Episode 5, Mike helps stop Kenny from beating Arvo after the gunfight, he then tries to speak with Kenny, chases Kenny when he runs after Arvo, and tries to get him to stop beating Arvo again, he showed more worry towards Arvo than determinantly Clementine and determinantly Bonnie after they fall into a frozen lake and need warmth. I think Kenny triggered his anger, he thought Kenny would kill Arvo several times and he's shown to try to be a nice guy which is pretty hypocritical as he steals from the group. He probably decided to leave due to feeling like he didn't have his voice heard, he might've felt like being with the group was worse than being in Howe's, I mean when Kenny and Mike first meet, Kenny pins him to the wall, and it's quite clear that Mike isn't really close to the group and has shown to be a little selfish at times(In Episode 3 if you don't grab the ladder he lets Clementine fall to her death). I think the reason Bonnie ends up coming with him is because she's the closest thing he has to a friend, both being in Howe's for quite a while. To emphasize his voice not being heard, he thought about going somewhere else rather than Wellington, which Kenny instantly declined, as well as said to leave Arvo who Mike had become defensive over. I'm not saying that Kenny is the main reason I think Mike left, but he sure as heck never helped Mike feel like a part of the group in any way, refusing his offer for help in Episode 3.
With Bonnie, I feel it really only makes more sense if Clementine doesn't try to save Luke, in that way Bonnie is mad at Clementine and Kenny, she's mad at Clementine as she blames her for unintentionally determinantly letting Luke die which is pretty irrational, and she doesn't agree with Kenny acting like a tyrannical leader either, and I don't doubt that she's jealous of Jane. It would make more sense that she steals the rest of the supplies if she doesn't like most of the group, I mean everyone in the group are survivalists, they'd take what they can to make sure they themselves live. Kenny and the rest of the group(determinantly not Lee) takes all the food from the Van in Season 1 Episode 2, Clementine steals medicine, a needle and determinantly also steals some bandage from the Cabin Group, Jane determinantly steals Medicine from Arvo's group, in other words, AJ is the only person whose really innocent and isn't a thief, not saying it's justified to steal from your own group though. Mike and Bonnie had pretty much the same mindset, wanting to go to the same location and both being pretty defensive of Arvo due to Kenny's treatment towards him, neither of them really showing much care for the current group members or AJ, Bonnie's only incentive to stay would've been Clementine if she isn't pissed at her because she realizes she influenced a child to try and save a grown man on cracking ice in the middle of large frozen ice cold lake.
Hmmm, what characters did make sense this season? When did people always make sense in real life? :x
AronDracula
Exactly! And that's why when people hate on Kenny for beating up Arvo, i think, ok? But this is a guy with his Russian pals who held the group at gun point, tried to rob them before then trying to kill them and yet the haters critiscise Kenny for beating him up? Maybe it was extreme given the scenario that took place but i've said it before and will again. If i was threatened like the group was, I would HATE whoever it was responsible if he or she had lived and would not treat them with any kindness etc, and i'm actually a very forgiving person but there is a line to forgivenes. Even though Arvo looked the innocent victim of the Russians, he honestly wasn't! He threatens you saying "you will regret this" or words to that effect if you steal from him but as we know, he still blames you for it anyway.
I hope we can kill him in Season 3. Nobody should feel bad if he dies, hope he dies slow and painful
I don't think we'll see Arvo, Mike or determinent Bonnie again
We will definitely not see Bonnie again because when a character becomes determinant he/she does not play a big role for the rest of the game.
Nobody should?
I seriously doubt we're going to see any of the characters again and Im glad. More power to them. Although, Im still pissed at Bonnie.
Why Arvo? He is not someone you should care for. He shot Clem
Because not everyone is comfortable with the idea that it's okay to hold someone hostage under the assumption that they're 100% responsible for the ambush without listening to their side of the story, continuously beat them up, throw racist slurs, and blame them for everything that goes wrong on the frozen lake, just because he happens to shoots Clementine as a response to how Kenny treated him.
I'd rather see Arvo get away with shooting Clementine than to see the story continuing to justify a grown man's actions for beating up a crippled and scared kid for what his group did and not what Arvo did as an individual. No matter how I look at it, I'll never find Kenny's actions justifiable in any way, especially when his own actions contributed to Arvo shooting Clementine.
Arvo shot Clem because he thinks she killed her sister ALIVE which is really stupid. Also if Luke didn't die, Kenny wouldn't have beaten him.
Also, I still don't understand why Luke, Bonnie and Mike trusted and defended Arvo who is just a member of a group who tried to kill us all
I hope next season you have the opportunity to kill them. Lets assume Kenny was as bad as they thought(I don't believe that but lets go that premise) they where still willing to leave two children alone with said crazy person and no supplies. Even if you hate Kenny and think they where right to be afraid that only makes what they did worse, if Kenny was so bad that they had to leave, they should of taken Clementine whether she wanted to go or not. Yes, if you ask they let you come, but they didn't know Clementine was gonna catch them and would of been content leave her. Keep in mind they stole all your supplies and your car, essentially leaving you for dead. They should of left in the shoot Mike option, it wouldn't be too dark or twisted for Clementine because you would just be shooting someone trying to rob you.
Come to think of it, I'm actually not sure whether its worse if your a Kenny supporter or hater, if your a Kenny supporter they almost left him and two innocent children for dead with no supplies in the car he fixed, if your a Kenny hater they left 2 innocent children with an unstable man and no supplies. Either way there scumbags who hopefully froze to death or where shot.
They let Arvo shoot Clem
F$%k Mike and Bonnie
I hope we run into them in S3
You expected them to put themselves in the way of the bullet? :P
But yeah, still: fuck Mike and Bonnie!
What he said.