You call me a sadist. You tell me I'm advocating for baby murder.
And you expect the case to rest? What kinda troll are you! You don't say stuff like that and just think it has no effect.
Because we are forced into a caring role for the kid no matter what our choices and he was only really there for a plot device to sow discord between Jane, Kenny, and Clem.
An accepted meaning of plot device is:
A plot device (plot mechanism) can be anything which moves the plot forward. A contrived or arbitrary plot device may annoy or confuse the reader, causing a loss of the suspension of disbelief.
This means, anything that propells the story forward is a plot device. Clementine, Kenny, Jane, AJ, Arvo and his companions, Arvo's bag of medicine, Howe's Hardware as a location, and many more. And that's okay—it's not an insult! The plot device has the ability to annoy you, but that's different. Not every plot device is poorly thought-out or simplistic. Not every plot device has to annoy you, either, unless you disliked exactly every main character, as they all boost the plot, and therefore, are plot devices. Walkers are plot devices, too. Michonne's hallucinations are also plot devices. The fire at the Fairbanks' house also is.
Because we are forced into a caring role for the kid no matter what our choices and he was only really there for a plot device to sow discord between Jane, Kenny, and Clem.
Let me tell you, Jane isn't a ditcher, either. She kept both a newborn baby and an eleven year old safe for at least nine entire days, and those days possibly turned into months since there will be a time skip. If she wanted to ditch them she would have, believe me.
That's still not anywhere near the point. And literally would only make sense when talking about you.
If anything, you made my case.
And @zeke10 this is what makes me think the age level can't be the same. Usually you don't talk to brick walls unless they are too young or too arrogant (aka older and entitled)
But that's the thing, Conflict is plot, it may not be the plot you want, and far be it from me to tell you what you want from a story, but that's the story. From episode 1 we knew AJ would be born, this was not an out of no where plot device, Chekhov's gun was firmly established, at some point this baby was coming. The birth of a child is a wondrous thing, but it comes with complications, and to hear it told in this thread its ok to wish death upon this fictional child because its birth was always going to screw things up.
That's not cool, and if someone feels that way, fine, but its an awful opinion. AJ exists in this story, like it or not that is the story, and to see people strongly advocate for the death of a helpless baby pegs my BS meter and I will call people out on it.
You unknowingly just proved my point. In Season 1 while it would be the obviously good thing to protect Clementine I personally did it becau… morese I fell in love with the character and Lee's attachment to her. I felt myself wanting to see her safe as with AJ it's more of a thing you're compelled to do more than.actual desire of keeping him with you. He exists for the sole purpose of conflict where.as Clementine served a much better purpose in redeeming Lee. Had Clementine not been in S1. Lee may not have been the character he was. If AJ wasn't in Season 2 there would be less forced conflict
I can understand leaving the baby if you're in a critical situation like being chased by bandits or in the middle of an herd and he starts crying, but if you're not why would you leave him? That's murder!
That's still not anywhere near the point. And literally would only make sense when talking about you.
If anything, you made my case.
A… morend @zeke10 this is what makes me think the age level can't be the same. Usually you don't talk to brick walls unless they are too young or too arrogant (aka older and entitled)
Couldn't have put it better myself.
If anyone is written to be a 'badass', then there's no story. Every conflict, tension, and drama is non-existent when everyone can overcome every obstacle without fear of failure.
It's perfectly fine to state your opinion and that's what the high majority of AJ's "fans" have been doing, but some of you seem to be getting way too upset and angry over a fictional, video game baby. I mean, like, chill out.
Why is it not okay for you and me to express our opinion? When we push back at the "how to kill a baby" discussion somehow we're taking things too far?
That's cause much like everything else from No Going Back, this synopsis is ripped almost whole-cloth from CoM and sloppily thrown in this game last minute, not to try to give Kenny a much needed character motivator to deepen him as a survivor, but to help him and Jane becoming what would be a laughing stock of "feud-baiting." So his purpose could literally be extended to a rock with drawn on eyes and a mouth and it wouldn't matter. He's not there to help the audience garner any emotion to him or Clementine, he's there so that Jane has her tacked on purpose to return and fight.
How can you even speak like that when you don't know whether he will be in Season 3 and have further importance? Unless you are one of the writers, you can't know what they had in mind when they brought AJ into the game, and that is a fact.
I'm a cruel asshole who likes fucking with some of the softies here that think just cause you don't like a baby in a game, you must be evil or at least incapable of becoming emotionally attached to an extended plot-device for a character whose jumped through all his hoops more than enough times for it to be old-hat.
Oh my God, yes, I apologize. You totally don't try to look superior on the internet by acting all condescending toward a generalized group of people. I should've known better than this.
For your information, a plot device, by definition, is anything that propells the plot. Every single main character counts, along with the walkers, and important items like Arvo's bag.
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Alright, I guess this is something I need to address cause obviously a completely fictitious character whose … moreonly purpose existing as for the way he exists was from an executive meeting addressing the forced choice between two characters solely met to fill quotas and force arbitrary choices that feel about as organic as a game of rock, paper, scissors is upsetting quite a few people now.
Look, I don't like babies in real life. They're gross, they piss and shit everywhere, and they're goodfornothingdeadbeats that don't pay rent. However, when done correctly, babies can instill hope and life reborn. In a good example like Children of Men, the infant's birth was the mark of the protagonists' rebirth, whereas he was cold and bitter toward the world before, he now finds something to fight for. Sound familiar?
That's cause much like everything else from No Going Back, this synopsis is ripped almost whole-cloth f… [view original content]
It's perfectly fine to state your opinion and that's what the high majority of AJ's "fans" have been doing, but some of you seem to be getting way too upset and angry over a fictional, video game baby. I mean, like, chill out.
The game has to be kept realistic to the world of The Walking Dead, where people are going to get pregnant, like Rebecca, and babies pop up. He wasn't there to fulfill a specific character role. And he can still be utilized in many ways. He doesn't have a purpose just yet, but that doesn't mean that he's a failure of a character.
Newborns have no personalities so of course he isn't as popular as Lee or Kenny. Not everything/everybody has to have some divine purpose. N… moreot even in video games.
You're right newborns have no personalities. Then why the hell is he even in the game? The claim that he has no purpose but to instigate the fight between Kenny and Jane is true, I mean what other purpose does he have? I don't hate AJ, but I also acknowledge that he's there for literally no reason.
Ethically, leaving a baby to die is wrong, and that's a fact, too.
Though @ShaneGrimes is right, @bossmanham, moral are not absolute. Nonetheless, I can agree that leaving AJ in the open to fend for himself would be sick.
Lol Morals being subjective is a fact.
That's the only thing that can be put to rest. Because everything else is all opinion. So there's no case to be made. Only your point and my point.
Keep up the name calling tho...
I've never gotten upset about it at all. I've found this to be an interesting discussion, but you seem to be taking it far too seriously. You're acting if AJ were to be a real, living breathing human being, which he isn't and making out anyone with a different view on him, is a nutter. I mean if you're this overly sensitive to people's opinions, you shouldn't even be on an internet forum.
That doesn't mean anything though—I also differ that @ShaneGrimes sounds like Carver. William Carver's principles seemed to be that the strong have the obligation to lead and protect the weak. I honestly believe that he killed Reggie so that the supplies that he would use could go to other residents of Howe's that were more "deserving" of them, and that doesn't seem like such a bad principle to run a community with. It's practical.
Reggie's murder being immoral is also debatable, since other people who worked "harder" could have more supplies, and perhaps survive longer, which would, simultaneously, keep the community full of people going, and more people would be kept alive.
And Carver never said that he wanted the baby to die. He wanted the baby to be raised and be "one of the strong" to continue his community. Carver only said that he would kill Rebecca and the baby if they attempted to escape, but we see that he didn't, since he had a revolver with him when he was alone with Kenny and Rebecca, and Rebecca was standing right there.
I just happen to know when a narrative is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Regardless, this thread has kind of deteriorated so I think I'm going to stay clear. I don't wish to be called out as a sociopath for an opinion I have on a completely fictional video game character.
That's cause much like everything else from No Going Back, this synopsis is ripped almost whole-cloth from CoM and sloppily thrown in this g… moreame last minute, not to try to give Kenny a much needed character motivator to deepen him as a survivor, but to help him and Jane becoming what would be a laughing stock of "feud-baiting." So his purpose could literally be extended to a rock with drawn on eyes and a mouth and it wouldn't matter. He's not there to help the audience garner any emotion to him or Clementine, he's there so that Jane has her tacked on purpose to return and fight.
How can you even speak like that when you don't know whether he will be in Season 3 and have further importance? Unless you are one of the writers, you can't know what they had in mind when they brought AJ into the game, and that is a fact.
I'm a cruel asshole who likes fucking with some of the softies here that think just cause you don't like a baby in a… [view original content]
I talked to him and he has decided to read through some of this thread and will then decide how to proceed. He asked me what I wanted too, and if no comments so far have been so out of line that the thread needs to be closed anyway, I have asked him to keep it open for now.
But I would ask everyone to calm down now and have a civil discussion, which I have admittedly also not done all the time in this thread. I also told InGen to close this thread if it only devolves into random insults and whining. All this of course with the thought in mind that he might close it anyway.
Wait, insults? I looked this thread over and over and the only thing I found were arguments. Unless you talk about the people that called the others "sociopaths", right?
While Clementine was a plot device it's a very poor comparison as she was interesting and formed a bond with Lee that felt free spirited and redeemed a once murderer into a care taker.
Clementine was a girl with substance and potential of her own, to be fair. Could you suggest ways of making a newborn baby any more interesting, since that is what bothered you? Telltale could certainly use some tips, given that a big amount of people found AJ boring.
Yet the writers give me no reason to want to protect him or care for him whatsoever. While Clementine was a plot device it's a very poor com… moreparison as she was interesting and formed a bond with Lee that felt free spirited and redeemed a once murderer into a care taker. AJ is forced upon us and the game gives you no choice but to protect him
This up here. I just went through the four pages and didn't find a single insult other that "you're like Carver." Honestly didn't even stumble upon "sociopathic."
I wrote down a few comments that will hopefully ignite some more civilized discussion.
It just devolved into cringeworthy insults
Wait, insults? I looked this thread over and over and the only thing I found were arguments. Unless you talk about the people that called the others "sociopaths", right?
It just devolved into cringeworthy insults
Wait, insults? I looked this thread over and over and the only thing I found were arguments. Unless you talk about the people that called the others "sociopaths", right?
Let me tell you, Jane isn't a ditcher, either. She kept both a newborn baby and an eleven year old safe for at least nine entire days, and t… morehose days possibly turned into months since there will be a time skip. If she wanted to ditch them she would have, believe me.
Then take it as constructive criticism if you want—some of your comments sounded condescending. That will almost always throw people off and prevent them from so much as reading your comments. Unless you don't want them to. In which case, it doesn't really matter.
I haven't called you a sociopath if that was directed at me, nor I think you are.
I'm not superior. Just asserting my own opinions.
I just happen to know when a narrative is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Regardl… moreess, this thread has kind of deteriorated so I think I'm going to stay clear. I don't wish to be called out as a sociopath for an opinion I have on a completely fictional video game character.
I never stated my comment about people calling me a "sociopath" was directed at you. I tend to choose my words very carefully when It comes to things like this, which may be why people may misconstrue my opinions for condescension. I never stated others were wrong and I never said my opinions were the only right way to view a tightrope topic like this.
What I'd like to know is which part in particular sounded condescending to you?
Then take it as constructive criticism if you want—some of your comments sounded condescending. That will almost always throw people off and… more prevent them from so much as reading your comments. Unless you don't want them to. In which case, it doesn't really matter.
I haven't called you a sociopath if that was directed at me, nor I think you are.
Edit: Pardon my terrible grammar slip-ups.
Jane may not have ditched them, but she certainty didn't care for AJ. She did have some form of attachment and care for Clementine which I can't deny, but with AJ, she obviously didn't feel much towards if she was willing to risk his life simply to enrage Kenny, thus proving her point and gaining an opportunity to kill Kenny.
Let me tell you, Jane isn't a ditcher, either. She kept both a newborn baby and an eleven year old safe for at least nine entire days, and t… morehose days possibly turned into months since there will be a time skip. If she wanted to ditch them she would have, believe me.
...but this thread, despite some hostility, didn't have as many insults as I thought I would have to remove. Still, consider this an open warning fellas.
Comments
Wow it sounds like you think I was objectively wrong for doing that or something.
Case rested. Again.
An accepted meaning of plot device is:
This means, anything that propells the story forward is a plot device. Clementine, Kenny, Jane, AJ, Arvo and his companions, Arvo's bag of medicine, Howe's Hardware as a location, and many more. And that's okay—it's not an insult! The plot device has the ability to annoy you, but that's different. Not every plot device is poorly thought-out or simplistic. Not every plot device has to annoy you, either, unless you disliked exactly every main character, as they all boost the plot, and therefore, are plot devices. Walkers are plot devices, too. Michonne's hallucinations are also plot devices. The fire at the Fairbanks' house also is.
You can't let it go!!
I didn't have to say anything to make you look bad.
Let me tell you, Jane isn't a ditcher, either. She kept both a newborn baby and an eleven year old safe for at least nine entire days, and those days possibly turned into months since there will be a time skip. If she wanted to ditch them she would have, believe me.
He's a human being in a fictional story. You can examine fiction through the lens of reality.
That's still not anywhere near the point. And literally would only make sense when talking about you.
If anything, you made my case.
And @zeke10 this is what makes me think the age level can't be the same. Usually you don't talk to brick walls unless they are too young or too arrogant (aka older and entitled)
But that's the thing, Conflict is plot, it may not be the plot you want, and far be it from me to tell you what you want from a story, but that's the story. From episode 1 we knew AJ would be born, this was not an out of no where plot device, Chekhov's gun was firmly established, at some point this baby was coming. The birth of a child is a wondrous thing, but it comes with complications, and to hear it told in this thread its ok to wish death upon this fictional child because its birth was always going to screw things up.
That's not cool, and if someone feels that way, fine, but its an awful opinion. AJ exists in this story, like it or not that is the story, and to see people strongly advocate for the death of a helpless baby pegs my BS meter and I will call people out on it.
So what! I don't like him, period.
Ok, @InGen_Nate_Kenny, can you close this thread please? Nothing useful is coming out of it.
Someone needs to take a philosophy class.
If you don't want to talk to me, then stop talking to me.
And that is why nobody likes Mary Sues.
It's perfectly fine to state your opinion and that's what the high majority of AJ's "fans" have been doing, but some of you seem to be getting way too upset and angry over a fictional, video game baby. I mean, like, chill out.
How can you even speak like that when you don't know whether he will be in Season 3 and have further importance? Unless you are one of the writers, you can't know what they had in mind when they brought AJ into the game, and that is a fact.
Oh my God, yes, I apologize. You totally don't try to look superior on the internet by acting all condescending toward a generalized group of people. I should've known better than this.
For your information, a plot device, by definition, is anything that propells the plot. Every single main character counts, along with the walkers, and important items like Arvo's bag.
It sounds to us like you're getting way too upset at us simply responding. I'm not upset in the least.
And so what if we are?
The game has to be kept realistic to the world of The Walking Dead, where people are going to get pregnant, like Rebecca, and babies pop up. He wasn't there to fulfill a specific character role. And he can still be utilized in many ways. He doesn't have a purpose just yet, but that doesn't mean that he's a failure of a character.
I think we should keep it open. There's nothing wrong with it, and people simply being uncomfortable with it isn't a reason to shut it down.
Ethically, leaving a baby to die is wrong, and that's a fact, too.
Though @ShaneGrimes is right, @bossmanham, moral are not absolute. Nonetheless, I can agree that leaving AJ in the open to fend for himself would be sick.
It just devolved into cringeworthy insults, no need for it to be open
Actually there is because without babies everybody will die and there won't be any people to replace them and the humanity would end
I've never gotten upset about it at all. I've found this to be an interesting discussion, but you seem to be taking it far too seriously. You're acting if AJ were to be a real, living breathing human being, which he isn't and making out anyone with a different view on him, is a nutter. I mean if you're this overly sensitive to people's opinions, you shouldn't even be on an internet forum.
Nah, I'd also say it should stay open. There's still potential for interesting discussion.
That doesn't mean anything though—I also differ that @ShaneGrimes sounds like Carver. William Carver's principles seemed to be that the strong have the obligation to lead and protect the weak. I honestly believe that he killed Reggie so that the supplies that he would use could go to other residents of Howe's that were more "deserving" of them, and that doesn't seem like such a bad principle to run a community with. It's practical.
Reggie's murder being immoral is also debatable, since other people who worked "harder" could have more supplies, and perhaps survive longer, which would, simultaneously, keep the community full of people going, and more people would be kept alive.
And Carver never said that he wanted the baby to die. He wanted the baby to be raised and be "one of the strong" to continue his community. Carver only said that he would kill Rebecca and the baby if they attempted to escape, but we see that he didn't, since he had a revolver with him when he was alone with Kenny and Rebecca, and Rebecca was standing right there.
I'm not superior. Just asserting my own opinions.
I just happen to know when a narrative is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Regardless, this thread has kind of deteriorated so I think I'm going to stay clear. I don't wish to be called out as a sociopath for an opinion I have on a completely fictional video game character.
I talked to him and he has decided to read through some of this thread and will then decide how to proceed. He asked me what I wanted too, and if no comments so far have been so out of line that the thread needs to be closed anyway, I have asked him to keep it open for now.
But I would ask everyone to calm down now and have a civil discussion, which I have admittedly also not done all the time in this thread. I also told InGen to close this thread if it only devolves into random insults and whining. All this of course with the thought in mind that he might close it anyway.
Wait, insults? I looked this thread over and over and the only thing I found were arguments. Unless you talk about the people that called the others "sociopaths", right?
Clementine was a girl with substance and potential of her own, to be fair. Could you suggest ways of making a newborn baby any more interesting, since that is what bothered you? Telltale could certainly use some tips, given that a big amount of people found AJ boring.
This up here. I just went through the four pages and didn't find a single insult other that "you're like Carver." Honestly didn't even stumble upon "sociopathic."
I wrote down a few comments that will hopefully ignite some more civilized discussion.
They were there but they got deleted, the C.M Punk GIF and calling TWD cancer and some other things. It just started to get unhealthy.
Huh, I think I've seen those... yet again, I'm not so sure, since sometimes my reading skills suck. :P
I mean she would have ditched him if Clem wasn't around.
Then take it as constructive criticism if you want—some of your comments sounded condescending. That will almost always throw people off and prevent them from so much as reading your comments. Unless you don't want them to. In which case, it doesn't really matter.
I haven't called you a sociopath if that was directed at me, nor I think you are.
Edit: Pardon my terrible grammar slip-ups.
That is probable to some degree.
Then let's agree that she is an influentiable ditcher?
Fuck this thread and everything in it
just fuck it
fuck it all
You would be fucked too, though.
Don't you sass me!
Who said I didn't like being fucked
I never stated my comment about people calling me a "sociopath" was directed at you. I tend to choose my words very carefully when It comes to things like this, which may be why people may misconstrue my opinions for condescension. I never stated others were wrong and I never said my opinions were the only right way to view a tightrope topic like this.
What I'd like to know is which part in particular sounded condescending to you?
Jane may not have ditched them, but she certainty didn't care for AJ. She did have some form of attachment and care for Clementine which I can't deny, but with AJ, she obviously didn't feel much towards if she was willing to risk his life simply to enrage Kenny, thus proving her point and gaining an opportunity to kill Kenny.
You win this exchange and the whole thread.
I admit, laughed at your comment.
...but this thread, despite some hostility, didn't have as many insults as I thought I would have to remove. Still, consider this an open warning fellas.