The King In The North THREAD
the king in the north, the white wolf
THE KING IN THE NORTH!!!!!! THE WHITE WOLF!!!!!!!! Jon Snow.....I MEAN TARGARYEN!?!?!?!?!?!
The king in the north, the young wolf
Which scene did you prefer? If I have to be honest I actually thought Robbs scene was better. Maybe Ill be in the minority but it wasn't as epic without the Greatjon Umber. He said "The king in the north" better then the glovers, cerwyns, and manderleys.
Now we're going to wait for our "TO THE KIIIIIIIIING" moment!
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It's hard to beat Greatjon. Because of his performance (or rather his actor's, can't remember the name) that scene is better. However, I also have to give points for Bella Ramsay as Lyanna Mormont in this new scene. Also, in a way Jon's is more powerful because this time they are choosing a king to lead them through winter, whereas Robb was marching to petty war at south.
So, I guess it's a tie
Jon's scene. Because Lyanna Mormont is incredible, I really hope that she has a chance to grow up.
Both usurpers. Robb to Stannis, Jon to Bran which he knows is alive and Sansa.
The worst is putting Jon, a bastard (btw no Targaryen's name except if a King commands it, or that he does a war of conquest) on a Throne.
I guess in books it will make sense because Jon will eventually get the letter of his brother Robb. Like maybe.
Actually I would take a wild guess and just assume that Jon was conceived during the consummation of marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna and is the secondborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen, which would make him the actual heir to the Iron Throne. (the only thing wrong with that is that Rhaegar died before the Mad King so I'm not sure...its a tossup between Dany and Jon having the actual birthright to the Iron Throne) I mean they wouldn't make such a big deal about it if in the end he was just a bastard with nothing to inherit like he already was.
Howland Reed will be the one to reveal his true lineage in both the books and the TV show.
The King in the North!!!
Rhaegar is married with Elia Martell. Hence Jon will always be a bastard except if he conquers and maintain his realm.
And no, Daenerys lost her claim when Robert took the throne. If she wants it back, she will have to do it by right of conquest (which she's doing actually)
uhhhh how?
Dude. Targaryens are known to wed multiple wives throughout their short 300 year history and it is not out of the realm of possibility that Rhaegar did married Lyanna as well for LOVE. He named her queen of love and beauty or something along those lines over his own wife at the famous tourney. So no, he's not always going to be bastard. Maybe he will be but it will then feel like the reveal of his parentage would be so pointless.
On the subject of claims and rights, they don't really matter right now. This isn't law and order. Jon was named King because people believe in him, not because of his name. He avenged the Red Wedding. Even though the Knights of the Vale showed up thanks to Sansa, Jon was still the one to beat Ramsay one on one and officially conquer Winterfell which means by rights Wintefell is his, right?
The White Wolf!
I like Jon quite a lot, but I liked Robb's "King in the North" scene better, if not just for the fact that it was the original. Jon's scene was good as well, but it felt more like him picking up the torch for Robb.
But they were both chosen by the North, they're not usurpers.
Sam talked about him in Season 4, before putting to the torch Craster's keep. Now I could be wrong but I remember the scene that way.
Not that much. Aegon and Maegor, like 300 years ago. The Faith is absolutely against it, so it's in no way legal. Not to mention it's impossible to prove that there was a marriage and a cancellation. He can still claim the throne by right of conquest.
In show Arya Stark avenged the Red Wedding. Roose Bolton's part in the Red Wedding is minor and if someone avenged the red wedding concerning the Bolton's crime, it's actually Ramsay who avenged the Red Wedding. Should Ramsay and Arya be the true lord of Winterfell too?
As for claims and rights, it's a huge matter in medieval times. Now if I remember well, aSoIaF is mainly said to be based on the war of roses; and if I'm ignorant of their history, but I think a bastard ended King. So no, him being a bastard do not make his parentage irrelevant. It's not a fairy tale. I found a bastard "king" in the lore: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Addam_Rivers
It's up to Bran and Sansa normally. Now "his reign" will be contested by the others contenders; he will have to stabilize his realm to be consider a rightful ruler.
Robb was chosen by the North but it doesn't mean it belongs to him. The North belongs to him as a lordship, not as a kingdom. As for the North for Jon, it should be legally to Bran/Sansa.
Every female fan last week : "YAAAASSS BIITCH, SANSA QUEEN OF THE NORTH!! WHO RUN THE WORLD!
Every female fan yesterday:
ahhh, yes i remember now. but i mean also these other events happened to jon, you really think he would think bran he would survive? a cripple and a "simpleton" surviving the harsh north, surviving the wildings and other things, not including the white walkers, and the climate, i dont think its too far fetched that jon probably thinks he's dead. also i think somewhere this season or last season he mention that bran is probably dead, no??? idk..
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yes?
Then it's a bit hypocritical to blame Sansa for not caring for Rickon but sending no one to Bran's help since he (Jon) left the Nightswatch. :P They will eventually meet at some point next season anyway.
How long this King in the North will last?
Last time we got one, he was "elected" by Jon Umber and the others houses cheerfully. In the end, three major houses turned their back against him (Karstark, Freys, Boltons).
Here we have a bastard, elected by a youngling with the strong force of 62 men and three lords who claimed him King in the North because they are pushed to the wall. In the meantime, this very king is surrounded by a legit heir of his kingdom, an entire army of the vale which only respond to a contender for the Iron throne who doesn't want this king on the North throne. Not to mention that with him independant his "realm" will be cut in two parts, and if it comes that he knows that he's the remaining bastard of a family who ruled 300 years on the throne he wants, he will be a threat to his ambition. Impliying that Baelish doesn't know it yet seeing the scenes he got back in season 5.
So now it's the War of the Mad Queens?
Jon now has the support of all the northern lords, not just three lords
Lol you think the Targaryens gave two shits about the faith? They married within their own families for the most part which the faith would also be "absolutely against". If thats legal then where do you get off thinking the faith is going to dictate to the Targaryens that they can't have more then one wife?
No but I think when Jon took out House Bolton that symbolized avenging the Red Wedding. Destroying the House that betrayed House Stark seems like it fits the bill. And considering they were the only "Northern" house to betray them, it makes sense that Northerners would consider them the main culprits. Walder Frey is just as guilty of it but he's not the one who inherited the North as a result of his treachery. I think most of the North understands that Robb fucked up with Walder Frey :P. Look, Wyman Manderley said it, not me!
Once again...I don't think he's a bastard. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one because it's not worth arguing about. There's no proof yet since they cut out his name during the Tower of Joy sequence. "his name is...." ... "Robert will kill him if he finds out, you know he will". I just don't think it would be as important if he's still a bastard. It would be stupid considering hes still in the same boat he always was. The only thing is that now he may be able to control one of the two smaller dragons or both.
Never heard of the uprising faith militant? Maegor the cruel committed suicide because of them. That's the main religion in half of the kingdom. The faith didn't forbid marriage between them but with Elia marrying Rhaegar it seems Targaryen wanted to stop being incestuous. If the custom of marrying several women (custom of 300 years ago) was still somehow applied, it led to Robert's rebellion. Are you gonna said the betrothal between Robert and Lyanna is illegal too?
You don't need to be Targaryen to mount dragons, I think GRRM said that.
It's not a random fairy tale where the prince is revealed at the end. Him being a bastard targaryen still changes things and he might want to take it as what he thinks rightfully his.
No but he will have a bond with the dragons. Targaryens are known to have special bonds with Dragons. Dany clearly doesn't have the same bond with the other two that she has with Drogon, D&D have said that. They were known as Dragonlords...and look they defs converted to the faith of the seven but they "hold themselves apart from the laws of gods and men" and continued incestuous marriage which would be considered a sin.
I have heard about the faith militant uprising. Maegor was like the first mad king lol, he broke their power according to George RR Martin. He killed himself yes, but not really only because of the faith, he was also hated by everyone in the seven kingdoms. He's called the cruel for a reason. Ever since Jaenaerys Targaryen (son of Maegor the cruel) they haven't had the right to hold criminal trials which mean they had no real control over what the Targaryens did. And just one thing, the mad king was burning people alive and causing havoc and you think the faith is worried about Rhaegar having a second wife in the middle of the biggest rebellion since the Blackfyres?!?
Buddy, I never said this was a fairy tale but it also isn't a historical fictional tragedy where everybody dies, it's a fucking fantasy epic. This is a story with dozens of prophecies and many of them come true and many don't, this a story with magic, dragons, whitewalkers, giants, mammoths, a giant 800 mile long ICE WALL, etc. I mean seriously, I'm not saying that this is a story with a fairy tale ending you asshole. I'm saying that the prince is who was promised is probably going to be one of the few prophecies to come true and Jon is the person with the highest chance of being that person. he's the only one whose of "ice and fire".
Grrm's take about Polygamy:
Rhaegar was the last dragon, not even a King.
I never stated that, though the series tend to do both.
Yes, but for the rest, it's supposed to be realistic. It doesn't mean people don't give a fuck about laws because there are dragons. It doesn't mean law of gravity changes because there's a giant wall.
So to sum up Jon is a Targaryen:
if one proves that there have been a marriage between these two.
If one proves there has been an annulment between Elia and Rhaegar. If not, using the argument of "you know, third centuries ago, double marriage was a thing" will repeal the Faith and a majority of those who believe the Faith. (because the old faith militant wasn't alone but backed by many houses)
If one proves that somehow Lyanna's betrothal to Robert Baratheon was legally cancelled.
If Rhaegar had the authorization of the King Aerys Targaryen. His Kingsguard never heard about it.
That's a lot of if, and hard to prove it. Hence he's still a bastard. Still he can conquer the throne since he's got the means, and pretend to be Targaryen if he ends one on the Throne.
The asshole is way too much so keep it civilized. Not agreeing with me don't give you the right to insult me, thank you.
I liked Robb's better, he was my favourite.
And it's not at all because I'm super salty about Sansa not ruling Winterfell. Nope.
You're the one whose being condescending. Jesus man, you're acting like you're George RR Martin himself and you know everything. You're bringing up medieval history to justify how Game of Thrones should not have a prophecy such as tpwwp when clearly it's been pointing to that the entire time. It is after all a fantasy epic and the prophecies aren't just floating around. Just because they portray politics, war, and conflict realistically does not mean this is a story without any insanely fantasy elements. I mean there is even a form of time travel.
The faith militant was extinct since Maegors SON. The fourth targaryen king. The faith dont have military power in the seven kingdoms after that and the high septons of recently are all puppets of the crown and have been presumably for a long time. The Sparrow changed that. Howland Reed knows the entire truth. Bran knows the entire truth.
On the topic of Aerys. Rhaegar didn't care what his father thought near the end. Their relationship was bad, and he was preparing a Great Council to overthrow his father which ended up becoming the Tourney at Harrenhall. You're right there is probably no proof anymore. A dragon recognizing him will be proof enough. Like I said they have special bonds with dragons and Daenerys only has that bond with Drogon.
Sorry for calling you an asshole but I have a problem with you saying that there is only one way for everything.
Like saying because Targaryens haven't married multiple wives in hundreds of years that is completely unrealistic (even though in valyria is was like that probably for hundreds of years) for Rhaegar to be the first one since Maegor. Just like Robb was the first King in The North since Torrhen. There is precedent like George said in the quote and to me that is all the proof you need.
I think Jon is destined to die by stopping the Long Night and the Night's King so I don't think its going to be all rainbows at the end.
She herself said Jon should take up leadership, she's just scared about LF and what he might do to Jon.
That's not my intend.
Please quote where, because I never did. The PWWP don't have to be Targaryen, or have landings for all we know. All what is said about him he's that he will lead men against Darkness. All I said about Jon Snow is that he won't be a legitimate Targaryen, not if he doesn't win his birthname by conquest (or being legitimate by a queen/king) I never said he wasn't the pwwp, he's an actual candidate to the title.
I'm just stating my opinion, you're totally free to not share it. Now there are points with the lore and what GRRM said which make your theory unlikely (several targaryens wanted to double marry, but their kings never agreed; meaning they had to ask for their kings) but you can still think it will happen, I won't have a problem with it :P
I'm not sure.. If you watch the inside of the episode, they say she has some kind of jealousy, a line like that.
I don't think they should be compared. They were both good for different reasons, both coming from different places but similar in a lot of ways too. I loved the Greatjon speaking for Robb while his mother looked on proudly, but I also loved Lady Mormont speaking for Jon and Jon being accepted even if he is a bastard while his sister looked on proudly. Also, I just love saying "The King in the North!"
I agree. LF keeps putting thoughts in her head but I don't think she wants all this power. She knows LF wants her and the Throne, so he says, and she knows hes capable of anything.
Not every female fan. I'm happy with Jon being chosen King and I really don't think he is going to throw Sansa to the side.
I was talking about the lords "electing" him.
I don't know how likely that was to happen anyway. Lady Mormont aside, how open is the North to accepting a woman ruler over a man? If Sansa really wanted to be Queen, I think she would have to be more aggressive than she's being. It really looks like LF is more interested in having her in power than she herself is, and that's because he wants something out of it.
Jon being named King shows not only how old fashioned but how stupid men of the north are. And women I guess if we want to count Lyanna.
Lord Glover was there when Ramsey got his face beat in. He saw that they almost had Jon beat, and he saw Sansa and LF come in and save the day. Any person who sees that, and in turn congratulates the commander who fell into the trap, they must have less brains then Robert Strong.
Theon has the balls to recognize when he wasn't the one to lead his people. Jon is a fighter, not a leader. Unless we want to turn Sansa into LF, and Arya into his assassin. That's the only way he could lead well.
Plus Euron
Glover wasn't there, he refused the call like Lyanna said.
i think its a tie. i mean its probably its a tie cuz jon is my favorite character, but both are pretty damn good.
the first one was awesome, it pulled you in again as in 'hey there's hope on this show, the father was killed but the kid is gonna kill them all (hell even cat says it :,() ' and the actor of Great Jon was freaking awesome.they had the original Stark theme and it was so freaking awesome and how they just said 'fuck the rest, the north is all that matters' is what i loved most.
and as to the Jon one i think a lot had to with the fact that it was followed by that beautiful tower of joy scene where they also played that Stark music, and my god it makes me teary eyed :,). Lyanna Mormont is the fucking best, lil kid has the biggest balls out of all those men. we get to see the mardelyns, we see house stark back which also makes it freaking cool, and this time theyre not wasting their time with some worthless war (or who knows WTF is gonna happen) and theyre gonna focus on the real shit. also i love the White Wolf nickname they gave Jon its freakin awesome.though i still think of Geralt as the white wolf... but it also has its, well, plot holes. like i said before davos and tormund were like 'man fuck kings, they just mess shit up and gets us screwed' and they go about basically rallying another king.. also, well i mean they did kill the boltons (but mainly it was the Vale, and why would the Vale follow the Stakrs..?), they said that Jon avenged the Red Wedding, but the Red Wedding culprits were Roose ('poisoned by our enemies' Ramsay), Tywin (tyrion) and Walder (was still alive until Arya) so he didnt fully avenged the red wedding. he did get some revenge though, but mostly avenged (mostly) the north in the way that he kill the traitors and a psycho terrorizing most of the north. but like i said maybe its mostly cuz of Jon just being my favorite.
Wasn't that Glover who was arguing with Ramsey when he fell back to Winterfell? I swear it was his twin if not him.