I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices the difference between how Clementine was slowly and carefully written to be a character you'd want to protect and how the focus was underlined on her and then a baby birthed from seemingly nowhere (which, may I add was also at the exact moment Sarah could die if you saved her from the trailer further adding narrative distance between the hope it was supposed to instill and the clunky scene itself).
I may have slight biased against babies considering their pretty gross crying machines, but I can feel attached to one if it's written well. I found AJ was not.
Exactly. He was just forced into the plot at the last minute, so Telltale could attempt to make up for season 2's lack of choice by turning Kenny and Jane's non-existent relationship into a full blown feud, all over AJ, of course.
Thank you.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices the difference between how Clementine was slowly and carefully written to be a chara… morecter you'd want to protect and how the focus was underlined on her and then a baby birthed from seemingly nowhere (which, may I add was also at the exact moment Sarah could die if you saved her from the trailer further adding narrative distance between the hope it was supposed to instill and the clunky scene itself).
I may have slight biased against babies considering their pretty gross crying machines, but I can feel attached to one if it's written well. I found AJ was not.
I would love to read ways in which people expect a two-year-old to develop and evolve as a character in a post-apocalyptic narrative.
I personally cannot think of any off the top of my head, and I will not hold Telltale accountable for not coming up with ways, either. That is, unless somebody makes a good case for this comment.
I would love to read ways in which people expect a two-year-old to develop and evolve as a character in a post-apocalyptic narrative.
There's millions, it just needs care and compassion and not a rushed half-assed effort, just like with anything that doesn't have a personality but is used to create a mood or help a character become more developed in better more interesting stories.
And why do I or anyone here need to come up with them? I don't get paid for the labor of enveloping new interesting ways to create quality characters yet if I know a character is placed in a situation simply as a means to get to point B, then I wouldn't ask for a dime because of my criticism of it.
How come people can't not like something just because it hides behind the argument it's too young? He was rushed in the narrative, I don't like things that are rushed into narratives as a way to garner knee-jerk emotional responses. End of story.
I would love to read ways in which people expect a two-year-old to develop and evolve as a character in a post-apocalyptic narrative.
I p… moreersonally cannot think of any off the top of my head, and I will not hold Telltale accountable for not coming up with ways, either. That is, unless somebody makes a good case for this comment.
There's millions, it just needs care and compassion and not a rushed half-assed effort,
Okay, that was a simpler answer than I was expecting.
just like with anything that doesn't have a personality but is used to create a mood or help a character become more developed in better more interesting stories.
You know you have somewhat described the function of a plot device? I am not aware if you are among them—I don't think so—but there are lots of people who complained that AJ was only a plot device, and yet you are saying that he should be more similar to what a plot device is in order to be a good character.
Plot devices are good! It's just that they should also feel like people and not a mere instrument that the writer uses.
And why do I or anyone here need to come up with them?
Why do you have to frame it like that!
We are in a forum, and I am a person inviting other people to share their opinion on how a two-year-old can be a developed character. Not forcing you nor anyone else to answer, and, just in case you didn't notice, this comment wasn't directed at you in particular.
I would love to read ways in which people expect a two-year-old to develop and evolve as a character in a post-apocalyptic narrative.
… more There's millions, it just needs care and compassion and not a rushed half-assed effort, just like with anything that doesn't have a personality but is used to create a mood or help a character become more developed in better more interesting stories.
And why do I or anyone here need to come up with them? I don't get paid for the labor of enveloping new interesting ways to create quality characters yet if I know a character is placed in a situation simply as a means to get to point B, then I wouldn't ask for a dime because of my criticism of it.
How come people can't not like something just because it hides behind the argument it's too young? He was rushed in the narrative, I don't like things that are rushed into narratives as a way to garner knee-jerk emotional responses. End of story.
I'm not a big fan of AJ myself (yet), but seriously? 'forced into the plot at the last minute'? 'a baby birthed from seemingly out of nowhere'? You guys realize that AJ's character was something planned since All That Remains, right? Something that was there since the very begining of the Season. Or did you two not notice that Rebecca was pregnant and going to have a baby? You guys make it look like a pregnant woman popped out of nowhere at the last minute and had a baby just to trigger the Kenny vs Jane fight.
And how can you define AJ, a character that hasn't done anything at all (because it's unable to), as a badly written character? What criteria are you using exactly?
Thank you.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices the difference between how Clementine was slowly and carefully written to be a chara… morecter you'd want to protect and how the focus was underlined on her and then a baby birthed from seemingly nowhere (which, may I add was also at the exact moment Sarah could die if you saved her from the trailer further adding narrative distance between the hope it was supposed to instill and the clunky scene itself).
I may have slight biased against babies considering their pretty gross crying machines, but I can feel attached to one if it's written well. I found AJ was not.
I think it can be really interesting to see how a 2 year old, raised in the apocalypse, acts. See how he acts when zombies approach. See what he thinks of the whole situation they're in. Y'know, seeing the ZA from a 2 year old prespective. It's something never done before as far as I can tell (they kinda did it with Alex in TWD:Michonne, but we only spent like 3 minutes with him). AJ can already talk and walk with that age (I assume?).
Personality-wise, I'm pretty sure he'll be annoying at times (aren't all the babies?) but they can start to implment some personality traits in him, like, is he more quiet or more hyperactive? Is he more obidient or more rebelious? Nothing too complicated, afterall, he's a two year old.
It'd also be cool if AJ in the alone ending didn't know how to talk yet. Babies learn how to talk by hearing others speak. I don't think Clem spoke much while she was alone so he might be a bit retarded in that aspect.
I would love to read ways in which people expect a two-year-old to develop and evolve as a character in a post-apocalyptic narrative.
I p… moreersonally cannot think of any off the top of my head, and I will not hold Telltale accountable for not coming up with ways, either. That is, unless somebody makes a good case for this comment.
You know you have somewhat described the function of a plot device?
I'm actually describing things, not plot devices, in a narrative that functions without having a personality or great amount of screen time. Much like the emotionally devastating first scene from Anti-Christ to the heartwarmingly beautiful ending of Raising Arizona. Both had a very young child or an infant with little screen time that acted as the spine of the films' events. Both written by people who also knew what they were doing.
Plot devices are good! It's just that they should also feel like people and not a mere instrument that the writer uses.
Of course. But not when their prop devices used as a switch to get people to clash just so that the ending has some arbitrary choice Clementine will make. Then it's shitty plot device.
Why do you have to frame it like that!
Because it's something I've seen used as a defense against criticism of AJ and I don't quite understand where it comes from.
And in any regard what I'd like is to discuss what I posted on the main thread description. What does the image invoke to you and if my speculation is somewhat feasible about the similarities of season 1 and 3's relationship, if you'd be ok with it?
Cause I can learn to like him if he's giving Clementine an interesting motivation to follow. As I had said, I think it'd be interesting to have him kidnapped early on in order to stir motivations of getting him back. And not because it'd be less screen time for him, but because off the top of my head it'd alleviate a lot of my personal biased of him and help feel like as though rescuing him would be worthy of motivation... if the narrative is strong enough of course.
There's millions, it just needs care and compassion and not a rushed half-assed effort,
Okay, that was a simpler answer than I was e… morexpecting.
just like with anything that doesn't have a personality but is used to create a mood or help a character become more developed in better more interesting stories.
You know you have somewhat described the function of a plot device? I am not aware if you are among them—I don't think so—but there are lots of people who complained that AJ was only a plot device, and yet you are saying that he should be more similar to what a plot device is in order to be a good character.
Plot devices are good! It's just that they should also feel like people and not a mere instrument that the writer uses.
And why do I or anyone here need to come up with them?
Why do you have to frame it like that!
We are in a forum, and I am a person inviting other people to share their opinion on … [view original content]
It will be interesting to see how he reacts to walkers, especially the possible variations that his expressions will have depending on whether he lives in the woods or in a community.
His personality is also something that they can explore.
It'd also be cool if AJ in the alone ending didn't know how to talk yet. Babies learn how to talk by hearing others speak. I don't think Clem spoke much while she was alone so he might be a bit retarded in that aspect.
I think it can be really interesting to see how a 2 year old, raised in the apocalypse, acts. See how he acts when zombies approach. See wha… moret he thinks of the whole situation they're in. Y'know, seeing the ZA from a 2 year old prespective. It's something never done before as far as I can tell (they kinda did it with Alex in TWD:Michonne, but we only spent like 3 minutes with him). AJ can already talk and walk with that age (I assume?).
Personality-wise, I'm pretty sure he'll be annoying at times (aren't all the babies?) but they can start to implment some personality traits in him, like, is he more quiet or more hyperactive? Is he more obidient or more rebelious? Nothing too complicated, afterall, he's a two year old.
It'd also be cool if AJ in the alone ending didn't know how to talk yet. Babies learn how to talk by hearing others speak. I don't think Clem spoke much while she was alone so he might be a bit retarded in that aspect.
When AJ was birthed without medicine, in the cold blistering harshness, with a mother who had dealt with copious amounts of trauma and stress, he was healthier than a horse (besides of course the first image of him as a pale seemingly lifeless husk) was the same scene where we (determinately) watched a helpless child die in a completely senseless and sloppy scene devoid of any and all timing.
If that alone doesn't set off some alarms that his entire being was formed out of rushed writing than I don't know what to tell you.
I'm not a big fan of AJ myself (yet), but seriously? 'forced into the plot at the last minute'? 'a baby birthed from seemingly out of nowher… moree'? You guys realize that AJ's character was something planned since All That Remains, right? Something that was there since the very begining of the Season. Or did you two not notice that Rebecca was pregnant and going to have a baby? You guys make it look like a pregnant woman popped out of nowhere at the last minute and had a baby just to trigger the Kenny vs Jane fight.
And how can you define AJ, a character that hasn't done anything at all (because it's unable to), as a badly written character? What criteria are you using exactly?
Ok, let's ignore my first point where you stated that he came out of nowhere?
When AJ was birthed without medicine, in the cold blistering harshness, with a mother who had dealt with copious amounts of trauma and stress, he was healthier than a horse
His birth is pretty believable to me. I mean, how do you think babies were born when there weren't any hospitals around? Do you think our ancestors had any medicine around? No, they didn't, yet babies were born all the same.
besides of course the first image of him as a pale seemingly lifeless husk
Exactly, he wasn't awake when he was born. Does that sound like a healthy baby to you?
(...) was the same scene where we (determinately) watched a helpless child die in a completely senseless and sloppy scene devoid of any and all timing.
And that's bad writting because...? Sarah dying in the same scene AJ is born can have many meanings. The loss of a life just for another to take its place. The sacrifices the group had to make to ensure the safe delivery of the baby.
And even if Sarah's death in that scene didn't work with AJ's birth, wouldn't it be more logical to hate on Sarah's determinant second death scene isntead of AJ's birth that happens regardless? Take no offence, but you seem kinda biased regarding this topic.
My only argument is also the only one I need.
When AJ was birthed without medicine, in the cold blistering harshness, with a mother who h… moread dealt with copious amounts of trauma and stress, he was healthier than a horse (besides of course the first image of him as a pale seemingly lifeless husk) was the same scene where we (determinately) watched a helpless child die in a completely senseless and sloppy scene devoid of any and all timing.
If that alone doesn't set off some alarms that his entire being was formed out of rushed writing than I don't know what to tell you.
I agree with the rest of your post completely, but…
His birth is pretty believable to me. I mean, how do you think babies were born when there weren't any hospitals around? Do you think our ancestors had any medicine around? No, they didn't, yet babies were born all the same.
Alvin Junior's inmune system has to be far inferior than that of the ancestors of his parents, given that Alvin and Rebecca both probably lived in urban areas and not in the middle of the woods.
Besides, realistically, he would have died soon after being born. How did he not catch a cold, not hurt himself when he somehow jumped off Rebecca's lap, not end up being shot by a stray bullet, and survive for nine days with little to no baby formula? Clementine, Jane nor Kenny are carrying any bags with them after the nine days pass.
Ok, let's ignore my first point where you stated that he came out of nowhere?
When AJ was birthed without medicine, in the cold bliste… morering harshness, with a mother who had dealt with copious amounts of trauma and stress, he was healthier than a horse
His birth is pretty believable to me. I mean, how do you think babies were born when there weren't any hospitals around? Do you think our ancestors had any medicine around? No, they didn't, yet babies were born all the same.
besides of course the first image of him as a pale seemingly lifeless husk
Exactly, he wasn't awake when he was born. Does that sound like a healthy baby to you?
(...) was the same scene where we (determinately) watched a helpless child die in a completely senseless and sloppy scene devoid of any and all timing.
And that's bad writting because...? Sarah dying in the same scene AJ is born can have many meanings. The loss of a life just… [view original content]
Ok, let's ignore my first point where you stated that he came out of nowhere?
When AJ was birthed without medicine, in the cold bliste… morering harshness, with a mother who had dealt with copious amounts of trauma and stress, he was healthier than a horse
His birth is pretty believable to me. I mean, how do you think babies were born when there weren't any hospitals around? Do you think our ancestors had any medicine around? No, they didn't, yet babies were born all the same.
besides of course the first image of him as a pale seemingly lifeless husk
Exactly, he wasn't awake when he was born. Does that sound like a healthy baby to you?
(...) was the same scene where we (determinately) watched a helpless child die in a completely senseless and sloppy scene devoid of any and all timing.
And that's bad writting because...? Sarah dying in the same scene AJ is born can have many meanings. The loss of a life just… [view original content]
@Everyone'sClemInTime said: was also at the exact moment Sarah could die if you saved her from the trailer further adding narrative distance between the hope it was supposed to instill and the clunky scene itself
was the same scene where we (determinately) watched a helpless child die in a completely senseless and sloppy scene devoid of any and all timing.
@IronWoodLover said: And that's bad writting because...? Sarah dying in the same scene AJ is born can have many meanings. The loss of a life just for another to take its place. The sacrifices the group had to make to ensure the safe delivery of the baby.
And even if Sarah's death in that scene didn't work with AJ's birth, wouldn't it be more logical to hate on Sarah's determinant second death scene isntead of AJ's birth that happens regardless? Take no offence, but you seem kinda biased regarding this topic.
Ok, let's ignore my first point where you stated that he came out of nowhere?
When AJ was birthed without medicine, in the cold bliste… morering harshness, with a mother who had dealt with copious amounts of trauma and stress, he was healthier than a horse
His birth is pretty believable to me. I mean, how do you think babies were born when there weren't any hospitals around? Do you think our ancestors had any medicine around? No, they didn't, yet babies were born all the same.
besides of course the first image of him as a pale seemingly lifeless husk
Exactly, he wasn't awake when he was born. Does that sound like a healthy baby to you?
(...) was the same scene where we (determinately) watched a helpless child die in a completely senseless and sloppy scene devoid of any and all timing.
And that's bad writting because...? Sarah dying in the same scene AJ is born can have many meanings. The loss of a life just… [view original content]
The zombie virus doesn't affect pregnancy or labour. It only activates once its porter's brain dies. Unless AJ had been born with an unactive brain, I don't see how the zombie virus would affect his birth.
The zombies were dealt by the rest of the group in a pretty believable way.
Do you think our ancestors had any medicine around? No, they didn't, yet babies were born all the same.
yeah, because zombies and a zombie virus was around during that time.
Alvin Junior's inmune system has to be far inferior than that of the ancestors of his parents, given that Alvin and Rebecca both probably lived in urban areas and not in the middle of the woods.
Well, actually, AJ's parents lived in the woods and in a post apocaliptic setting for almost two years. I agree that his immune system isn't as strong as his ancestors, though.
But my point is, a woman such as Rebecca can have a baby without medicical support. Obviously, the probability of having complications during and after labour is higher, and that's exactly what happened. First, the baby was born uncounscious, that's not a sign of a healthy baby. Second, because Rebecca didn't recieve proper medical treatment, she ended up dying from bloodloss. There is no doubt that this wasn't a perfect labout at all so I think it was a pretty believable one considering the circumstances.
Besides, realistically, he would have died soon after being born. How did he not catch a cold, not hurt himself when he somehow jumped off Rebecca's lap, not end up being shot by a stray bullet, and survive for nine days with little to no baby formula? Clementine, Jane nor Kenny are carrying any bags with them after the nine days pass.
I agree. It pretty unbelievable and ridiculous. But I honestly can close my eyes to half of that. If I said that Kenny is a badly written character because he survived brain damage without any cirurgical treatment, or that Clem is badly written because she was able to escape a town full of zombies with only a gun and one bullet, I don't think anyone would take me seriously :7. If people can close their eyes to things like that, why won't they close them too for AJ?
I agree with the rest of your post completely, but…
His birth is pretty believable to me. I mean, how do you think babies were born wh… moreen there weren't any hospitals around? Do you think our ancestors had any medicine around? No, they didn't, yet babies were born all the same.
Alvin Junior's inmune system has to be far inferior than that of the ancestors of his parents, given that Alvin and Rebecca both probably lived in urban areas and not in the middle of the woods.
Besides, realistically, he would have died soon after being born. How did he not catch a cold, not hurt himself when he somehow jumped off Rebecca's lap, not end up being shot by a stray bullet, and survive for nine days with little to no baby formula? Clementine, Jane nor Kenny are carrying any bags with them after the nine days pass.
To this I have to comment. First, I'll say that I never thought of killing a baby or using it as "bait" til someone else on the forums said it. I was kinda shocked, like WOW. But as i heard the arguments and gave it some thought, there are some valid in extream situations for it.
First, as I've said a few times in the past, I think one thing that happens is people tend to not think about how life would be if they were in a real zombie apocalypse. All of the difficulties, hard choices, the horrors that would be daily life. Now most reasonable people wouldnt simply kill a baby but put yourself into a life or death situation. Would you kill a baby if it were your only chance to live? I'm sure I would feel terrible about it but I would. I mean, here I am trying to take care of someone elses baby but find myself in a situation where either we both die or he does and I get to live. I would in that situation.
My point is, the trend of that mindset does have some validity that shouldn't be taken lightly, but you cannot deny with all of the terrible things that people do to babies or toddlers in todays world, that in a zombie apocalypse, reasonable people would be forced to do worse just to survive.
Thank you @kennyisjesus200 !! My thoughts exactly. I never understood the "let's kill the baby or leave it to die because it might get in the way" trend.
I suppose that the argument has some validity under a theorical extreme situation, but if the toddler was crying, I wouldn't leave him to be devoured just like that. I would feel better—not so bad—by shooting or stabbing them in the head first without them even noticing so that they don't have to go through the unbearable pain and horror of being eaten alive.
To this I have to comment. First, I'll say that I never thought of killing a baby or using it as "bait" til someone else on the forums said … moreit. I was kinda shocked, like WOW. But as i heard the arguments and gave it some thought, there are some valid in extream situations for it.
First, as I've said a few times in the past, I think one thing that happens is people tend to not think about how life would be if they were in a real zombie apocalypse. All of the difficulties, hard choices, the horrors that would be daily life. Now most reasonable people wouldnt simply kill a baby but put yourself into a life or death situation. Would you kill a baby if it were your only chance to live? I'm sure I would feel terrible about it but I would. I mean, here I am trying to take care of someone elses baby but find myself in a situation where either we both die or he does and I get to live. I would in that situation.
My point is, the trend of that m… [view original content]
I agree.. show some sort of humanity and compassion if possible, if the situation allows it. I do tend to think of these hypotheticals and wonder what I would do or talk about them to friends. It get's you thinking but a lot of people have a hard time ignoring today's life and put themselves in a apocalyptic mindset and realize you may only have seconds to act. You don't have a full inventory of solutions, you don't have the luxury of time and you may not have the gift of compassion from others to rely upon.
You may indeed be forced to choose between doing something so horrible, so far beyond your own rational thoughts or simply being killed. What do you do?
99% of the time, I answer, I do it and live.. I'll deal with the consequences or nightmares later!
I suppose that the argument has some validity under a theorical extreme situation, but if the toddler was crying, I wouldn't leave him to be… more devoured just like that. I would feel better—not so bad—by shooting or stabbing them in the head first without them even noticing so that they don't have to go through the unbearable pain and horror of being eaten alive.
I tend to agree with the whole AJ as a plot device. His birth might've worked as the whole when one life dies another enters the world thing that people above me have said, but it was done in a way that was rushed and clumsy. Watch season 1 of LOST if you want to see how it's done effectively.
I disagree that the Jane and Kenny fight would've happened without AJ. Oh they would've had an argument but not a fight over AJ supposedly left for death. At worst it would be a conversation. "Kenny I am going back to Howes and I'm taking Clem with me."
"No you are not Jane she is family."
"Clem you need to choose."
A) Stay with Kenny. Leave with Jane.
A) Stay with Kenny and voice all the reasons why you won't go with Jane and we'll still have that scene where Jane calls after Clem as she walks away.
Leave with Jane and voice all the reasons why you won't go with him. Kenny hugs you and wishes you luck. He won't fight Jane to keep Clem with him.
The ending was done badly. It's like I'm going to kill you Jane cause the baby is dead. Oh look the baby isn't dead. Oh well, accidents happen Clem.
I'm leaving you Kenny and I'm taking the baby.
Okay have fun BYE!!!!
AJ was a plot device, a reason to have Kenny and Jane fight. I doubt anyone would pick Jane or Kenny if the fight was over who Clem went with or where they went.
The reason people don't like AJ as a plot device is because isn't just down to how it was forced onto the narrative. It's because it revealed the Telltale formula more than any other choice. AJ was the lack of choices or our impact on story in physical form. In season 1 we had the illusion of choices where although we couldn't effect the overall story, we could at least impact how the end played out through our interactions with characters. We could be an arsehole and go find Clem alone, or have only Omid and Christa, Ben. Or just Kenny come with us.
In season 2 we had no such choices. Our dialogue didn't influence how others saw us. Even the choices where we could make Clem less than baby friendly had no meaning because as soon as the baby is born she loves that child regardless of past choices. The writers ignore that not everyone wants Clem to look after a baby, or even like a baby. As soon as that baby is born it doesn't matter that Clem may or may not like babies because that isn't what the writers want.
AJ revealed that we have no impact on the actual story.
I remember when I first saw A.J in that picture, my reaction was 'aaaw look he's so cute-wait no, it's a trap! they'll kill him!'
I don't know how to feel about him right now. I think I'll have to see a scene with A.J to get a better impression. I just hope he isn't still an animatronic. But he looks more like he could be Alvin's son now, when before I thought it was implied he was Carver's. I don't know, is anybody thinking that?
Comments
Thank you.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices the difference between how Clementine was slowly and carefully written to be a character you'd want to protect and how the focus was underlined on her and then a baby birthed from seemingly nowhere (which, may I add was also at the exact moment Sarah could die if you saved her from the trailer further adding narrative distance between the hope it was supposed to instill and the clunky scene itself).
I may have slight biased against babies considering their pretty gross crying machines, but I can feel attached to one if it's written well. I found AJ was not.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Noooo!!!!!
AJ is gonna rekt you, look at those eyes. Shh..
I called that last month when I first saw this image.
I would love to read ways in which people expect a two-year-old to develop and evolve as a character in a post-apocalyptic narrative.
I personally cannot think of any off the top of my head, and I will not hold Telltale accountable for not coming up with ways, either. That is, unless somebody makes a good case for this comment.
There's millions, it just needs care and compassion and not a rushed half-assed effort, just like with anything that doesn't have a personality but is used to create a mood or help a character become more developed in better more interesting stories.
And why do I or anyone here need to come up with them? I don't get paid for the labor of enveloping new interesting ways to create quality characters yet if I know a character is placed in a situation simply as a means to get to point B, then I wouldn't ask for a dime because of my criticism of it.
How come people can't not like something just because it hides behind the argument it's too young? He was rushed in the narrative, I don't like things that are rushed into narratives as a way to garner knee-jerk emotional responses. End of story.
Okay, that was a simpler answer than I was expecting.
You know you have somewhat described the function of a plot device? I am not aware if you are among them—I don't think so—but there are lots of people who complained that AJ was only a plot device, and yet you are saying that he should be more similar to what a plot device is in order to be a good character.
Plot devices are good! It's just that they should also feel like people and not a mere instrument that the writer uses.
Why do you have to frame it like that!
We are in a forum, and I am a person inviting other people to share their opinion on how a two-year-old can be a developed character. Not forcing you nor anyone else to answer, and, just in case you didn't notice, this comment wasn't directed at you in particular.
I'm not a big fan of AJ myself (yet), but seriously? 'forced into the plot at the last minute'? 'a baby birthed from seemingly out of nowhere'? You guys realize that AJ's character was something planned since All That Remains, right? Something that was there since the very begining of the Season. Or did you two not notice that Rebecca was pregnant and going to have a baby? You guys make it look like a pregnant woman popped out of nowhere at the last minute and had a baby just to trigger the Kenny vs Jane fight.
And how can you define AJ, a character that hasn't done anything at all (because it's unable to), as a badly written character? What criteria are you using exactly?
I think it can be really interesting to see how a 2 year old, raised in the apocalypse, acts. See how he acts when zombies approach. See what he thinks of the whole situation they're in. Y'know, seeing the ZA from a 2 year old prespective. It's something never done before as far as I can tell (they kinda did it with Alex in TWD:Michonne, but we only spent like 3 minutes with him). AJ can already talk and walk with that age (I assume?).
Personality-wise, I'm pretty sure he'll be annoying at times (aren't all the babies?) but they can start to implment some personality traits in him, like, is he more quiet or more hyperactive? Is he more obidient or more rebelious? Nothing too complicated, afterall, he's a two year old.
It'd also be cool if AJ in the alone ending didn't know how to talk yet. Babies learn how to talk by hearing others speak. I don't think Clem spoke much while she was alone so he might be a bit retarded in that aspect.
I'm actually describing things, not plot devices, in a narrative that functions without having a personality or great amount of screen time. Much like the emotionally devastating first scene from Anti-Christ to the heartwarmingly beautiful ending of Raising Arizona. Both had a very young child or an infant with little screen time that acted as the spine of the films' events. Both written by people who also knew what they were doing.
Of course. But not when their prop devices used as a switch to get people to clash just so that the ending has some arbitrary choice Clementine will make. Then it's shitty plot device.
Because it's something I've seen used as a defense against criticism of AJ and I don't quite understand where it comes from.
And in any regard what I'd like is to discuss what I posted on the main thread description. What does the image invoke to you and if my speculation is somewhat feasible about the similarities of season 1 and 3's relationship, if you'd be ok with it?
Cause I can learn to like him if he's giving Clementine an interesting motivation to follow. As I had said, I think it'd be interesting to have him kidnapped early on in order to stir motivations of getting him back. And not because it'd be less screen time for him, but because off the top of my head it'd alleviate a lot of my personal biased of him and help feel like as though rescuing him would be worthy of motivation... if the narrative is strong enough of course.
You raise some good points!
It will be interesting to see how he reacts to walkers, especially the possible variations that his expressions will have depending on whether he lives in the woods or in a community.
His personality is also something that they can explore.
How did nobody think about this before.
You deserve a cookie. A full tray of them!
Seriously, it's such a sound realization!
My only argument is also the only one I need.
When AJ was birthed without medicine, in the cold blistering harshness, with a mother who had dealt with copious amounts of trauma and stress, he was healthier than a horse (besides of course the first image of him as a pale seemingly lifeless husk) was the same scene where we (determinately) watched a helpless child die in a completely senseless and sloppy scene devoid of any and all timing.
If that alone doesn't set off some alarms that his entire being was formed out of rushed writing than I don't know what to tell you.
Ok, let's ignore my first point where you stated that he came out of nowhere?
His birth is pretty believable to me. I mean, how do you think babies were born when there weren't any hospitals around? Do you think our ancestors had any medicine around? No, they didn't, yet babies were born all the same.
Exactly, he wasn't awake when he was born. Does that sound like a healthy baby to you?
And that's bad writting because...? Sarah dying in the same scene AJ is born can have many meanings. The loss of a life just for another to take its place. The sacrifices the group had to make to ensure the safe delivery of the baby.
And even if Sarah's death in that scene didn't work with AJ's birth, wouldn't it be more logical to hate on Sarah's determinant second death scene isntead of AJ's birth that happens regardless? Take no offence, but you seem kinda biased regarding this topic.
Duh
I agree with the rest of your post completely, but…
Alvin Junior's inmune system has to be far inferior than that of the ancestors of his parents, given that Alvin and Rebecca both probably lived in urban areas and not in the middle of the woods.
Besides, realistically, he would have died soon after being born. How did he not catch a cold, not hurt himself when he somehow jumped off Rebecca's lap, not end up being shot by a stray bullet, and survive for nine days with little to no baby formula? Clementine, Jane nor Kenny are carrying any bags with them after the nine days pass.
EDIT: Nevermind. Moved to seperate comment for spatial reasons.
And that's why Sarah's "canon" death sucked!
No, but forreal tho, that was bullshit for a bunch of reasons....
yeah, because zombies and a zombie virus was around during that time.
The zombie virus doesn't affect pregnancy or labour. It only activates once its porter's brain dies. Unless AJ had been born with an unactive brain, I don't see how the zombie virus would affect his birth.
The zombies were dealt by the rest of the group in a pretty believable way.
Well, actually, AJ's parents lived in the woods and in a post apocaliptic setting for almost two years. I agree that his immune system isn't as strong as his ancestors, though.
But my point is, a woman such as Rebecca can have a baby without medicical support. Obviously, the probability of having complications during and after labour is higher, and that's exactly what happened. First, the baby was born uncounscious, that's not a sign of a healthy baby. Second, because Rebecca didn't recieve proper medical treatment, she ended up dying from bloodloss. There is no doubt that this wasn't a perfect labout at all so I think it was a pretty believable one considering the circumstances.
I agree. It pretty unbelievable and ridiculous. But I honestly can close my eyes to half of that. If I said that Kenny is a badly written character because he survived brain damage without any cirurgical treatment, or that Clem is badly written because she was able to escape a town full of zombies with only a gun and one bullet, I don't think anyone would take me seriously :7. If people can close their eyes to things like that, why won't they close them too for AJ?
To this I have to comment. First, I'll say that I never thought of killing a baby or using it as "bait" til someone else on the forums said it. I was kinda shocked, like WOW. But as i heard the arguments and gave it some thought, there are some valid in extream situations for it.
First, as I've said a few times in the past, I think one thing that happens is people tend to not think about how life would be if they were in a real zombie apocalypse. All of the difficulties, hard choices, the horrors that would be daily life. Now most reasonable people wouldnt simply kill a baby but put yourself into a life or death situation. Would you kill a baby if it were your only chance to live? I'm sure I would feel terrible about it but I would. I mean, here I am trying to take care of someone elses baby but find myself in a situation where either we both die or he does and I get to live. I would in that situation.
My point is, the trend of that mindset does have some validity that shouldn't be taken lightly, but you cannot deny with all of the terrible things that people do to babies or toddlers in todays world, that in a zombie apocalypse, reasonable people would be forced to do worse just to survive.
What happened to clementines finger?
I suppose that the argument has some validity under a theorical extreme situation, but if the toddler was crying, I wouldn't leave him to be devoured just like that. I would feel better—not so bad—by shooting or stabbing them in the head first without them even noticing so that they don't have to go through the unbearable pain and horror of being eaten alive.
I agree.. show some sort of humanity and compassion if possible, if the situation allows it. I do tend to think of these hypotheticals and wonder what I would do or talk about them to friends. It get's you thinking but a lot of people have a hard time ignoring today's life and put themselves in a apocalyptic mindset and realize you may only have seconds to act. You don't have a full inventory of solutions, you don't have the luxury of time and you may not have the gift of compassion from others to rely upon.
You may indeed be forced to choose between doing something so horrible, so far beyond your own rational thoughts or simply being killed. What do you do?
99% of the time, I answer, I do it and live.. I'll deal with the consequences or nightmares later!
I tend to agree with the whole AJ as a plot device. His birth might've worked as the whole when one life dies another enters the world thing that people above me have said, but it was done in a way that was rushed and clumsy. Watch season 1 of LOST if you want to see how it's done effectively.
I disagree that the Jane and Kenny fight would've happened without AJ. Oh they would've had an argument but not a fight over AJ supposedly left for death. At worst it would be a conversation. "Kenny I am going back to Howes and I'm taking Clem with me."
"No you are not Jane she is family."
"Clem you need to choose."
A) Stay with Kenny.
Leave with Jane.
A) Stay with Kenny and voice all the reasons why you won't go with Jane and we'll still have that scene where Jane calls after Clem as she walks away.
The ending was done badly. It's like I'm going to kill you Jane cause the baby is dead. Oh look the baby isn't dead. Oh well, accidents happen Clem.
I'm leaving you Kenny and I'm taking the baby.
Okay have fun BYE!!!!
AJ was a plot device, a reason to have Kenny and Jane fight. I doubt anyone would pick Jane or Kenny if the fight was over who Clem went with or where they went.
The reason people don't like AJ as a plot device is because isn't just down to how it was forced onto the narrative. It's because it revealed the Telltale formula more than any other choice. AJ was the lack of choices or our impact on story in physical form. In season 1 we had the illusion of choices where although we couldn't effect the overall story, we could at least impact how the end played out through our interactions with characters. We could be an arsehole and go find Clem alone, or have only Omid and Christa, Ben. Or just Kenny come with us.
In season 2 we had no such choices. Our dialogue didn't influence how others saw us. Even the choices where we could make Clem less than baby friendly had no meaning because as soon as the baby is born she loves that child regardless of past choices. The writers ignore that not everyone wants Clem to look after a baby, or even like a baby. As soon as that baby is born it doesn't matter that Clem may or may not like babies because that isn't what the writers want.
AJ revealed that we have no impact on the actual story.
I remember when I first saw A.J in that picture, my reaction was 'aaaw look he's so cute-wait no, it's a trap! they'll kill him!'
I don't know how to feel about him right now. I think I'll have to see a scene with A.J to get a better impression. I just hope he isn't still an animatronic. But he looks more like he could be Alvin's son now, when before I thought it was implied he was Carver's. I don't know, is anybody thinking that?
God, A.J seriously does look adorable T.T