Bonnie's Thought Process on Leaving with Mike
Good day, everyone!
I noticed a parallel a while back, and I found it to be one of the most interesting details in the entirety of Season Two. Without further due, scan through the conversations below and I will get to the point. Be sure to tell us what you think then!
Bonnie: I was supposed to go. When Luke and Carlos and all them left, I was planning on leaving, too. When Luke approached me about it, I thought he was crazy. I mean, we're safe here. We got power. We got food.
Clementine: Why didn't you? Leave, I mean.
Bonnie: If I'm being honest, I guess I chickened out. I justified not going by telling myself it's easier to try and change something that's broken, than start all over. Take this situation with the herd. That's the type of thing that rips a community apart. He keeps things in line. He's got a lot of this stuff figured out. I don't know… I guess I just wanted to be somewhere comfortable for a while.
Clementine: Nobody's safe here with Carver around.
Bonnie: You're safe if you stay on his good side.
Clementine: I would if I knew where it was.
Bonnie: I mean, it ain't easy keeping a group this big fed and protected. I don't envy that position. Figure that'd make anyone a little stressed. I'm not defending what he did! That was… I'm alive because of him. That's just a fact.
Clementine: Sounds like you really respect him.
Bonnie: It's not that. I just have sympathy for the man, even though sometimes it's hard for him to do the same.
While we are still in "In Harm's Way" let's take a closer look at Carver's behavior—more specifically, Bonnie's approach toward his behavior—and how it compares to Kenny in "No Going Back." A numbered list will help.
"You're safe if you stay on his good side."
Even though it takes a high level of stepping-aside and letting-others-make-decisions-for-you, this statement is ultimately true for Kenny. He will go to great lengths to protect you and make sure that you are safe if you are on his good side. The quote also shows that Bonnie used to be willing to stay on a potentially dangerous man's good side if it meant that she would be okay." I just have sympathy for the man, even though sometimes it's hard for him to do the same."
The quote shows that Bonnie used to be capable of sympathizing with a person who didn't share that understanding back with her. She appears selfless in a way. This line will also tie in later in the post."I justified not going by telling myself it's easier to try and change something that's broken, than start all over."
This quote shows that Bonnie would've used to stay in a broken group if it meant that she wouldn't have to abandon everything and start anew—with the cabin group. She seems passive because of this. And again, this line will tie in later.
Clementine: Hey! Look at this! An old coat!
Bonnie: Nice! Good find, Clem! You should hang onto that. It's gonna get a lot colder before it starts getting warmer.
Clementine: Do you want it?
Bonnie: That's real sweet of you Clem, but you should probably hang onto it for Rebecca. I guess you've already got that old coat I gave you. I feel so bad, about everything that happened. Hopefully you won't always think of me like that. Not that I'd blame you if you did. I haven't always used the best… judgment.
Clementine: You finally opened your eyes about Carver, and what a bad person he was. That's something.
I believe that "Amid The Ruins" is a major turning point for Bonnie, even though she is mostly in the background. This is the episode in which Clementine and others contribute to her change of mind—the one in which she decides that she was wrong to have decided to stay at Howe's Hardware with Carver instead of fleeing with the cabin group. This is the moment when she decides that she will abandon the ideas presented in 1–3 above.
This comes into play in "No Going Back."
"You're safe if you stay on his good side."
Bonnie does not care about being on anybody's good side anymore. After unintentionally having been convinced otherwise, and after the multiple discouraging things that she endured during that episode, she lost all motivation to give Kenny a second chance of showing that he could indeed care for her." I just have sympathy for the man, even though sometimes it's hard for him to do the same."
We can atributte this to the same reasons as above. She lost every motivation to feel sympathy for a person who assured that everyone was to drive to Wellington or they would be left at the unfinished house, and who beat a teenager close to death. In her eyes, she held the belief that the downfall of the group was his fault in the first place."I justified not going by telling myself it's easier to try and change something that's broken, than start all over."
The rest of the group members had previously prompted her to accept that she was wrong when she stayed at Howe's Hardware, and she applied this recently-acquired knowledge and decided that she would have to leave with Mike and Arvo, or her situation would mirror what happened the last time—Reggie's killing, the capture of relatively innocent people, and Kenny's disabling.
I truly think that she couldn't avoid comparing the first situation to the second one. Harsh memories of what happened after the return of the cabin group at Howe's tormented her, and guilt was probably a factor in there, too. Doubts about what could've happened if she had escaped with everyone else. When Mike asked her to go with them, it must have felt incredibly resembling to when Luke asked her to go with them. I know I would've had a hard time saying no for a second time, waiting to die with everyone else.
(!) Please do not derail the thread if you are in favor or against the character Kenny. This is not a discussion nor argument about him in particular, and I would not want this webpage to be closed due to off-topic comments.
Comments
Great post! This is a really interesting way to look at Bonnie's actions in No Going Back. I think that everything you said was fitting to her character. I always saw it as her instincts for survival getting in the way of her doing the right thing (and she does want to do the right thing), but I prefer this as a more subtle arc.
I don't know if this is kind of off-topic, but I never found her leaving to be out of character. The only thing that I felt was weird for Bonnie was for her and everyone else deciding to take all of the supplies. Taking something, yes, that's understandable. But everything? It seemed pretty cruel for her to do that. Too cruel for Bonnie, in my opinion.
Thank you for your comment!
I too prefer this character arc rather than understanding that she was behaving like that out of instinct. I am not sure that these coincidences were intentional, but to me it seems likely. It makes me look at "Amid The Ruins" and "No Going Back" in a different light for sure—better at handling characters than I thought before. I think it's especially effective because it's subtle and easy to miss.
I also believe that it was out of character. I wouldn't agree with this outlook, but maybe they convinced themselves that the other four would perish nonetheless and decided to take all the bags, which were Arvo's in the first place. It doesn't make it any better, though. Perhaps I would've liked their take-off more if they had woken the others up and held them at gunpoint to explain why they were leaving, and also taken one single duffel bag and the truck instead of everything.
S2 was very good at small details like this. It's a pity it wasn't that good at storytelling and character development.
Good post, by the way!
You explained very well. I never hated Bonnie, i liked her sins twd 400 days. I forgave her.
While this does shed light on what Bonnie's motivations probably were and was certainty an interesting read, for me, it still doesn't change the outlook I have on the character. Kenny's a dick, sure, and he's definitely not an easy person to actually like, and I can completely understand her and Mike wanted to get the hell away from him (hell, most normal people probably would), but to steal all the supplies, leaving an 11 year old, an infant, the mentally unstable man and the loner to virtually die, is pure despicable. And to add to their already atrocious act, they decide to bring along Arvo, the lad pretty much responsible for nearly having everyone killed with his Russian buds, and arguably Luke's demise. There's no justifying it, no matter the motivation.
But yeah, great post, Sleep.
What's this--A topic deconstructing Bonnie's character that ISN'T made by zombiebonnie?!
To be fair, I kinda figured this out already, but nice to know it isn't just a lowly hypothesis. Nice work!
Plus, I'm starting to think she didn't join Mike for convenient reasons....
AGREE
I think they took Arvo with them because they knew Kenny wouldn't take out his anger on Clementine, AJ, or (debatably) Jane when he woke to find the pickup and the supplies gone. He had already beaten Arvo, so it stands to reason Arvo would be in danger of receiving the same treatment or worse when Kenny discovered the theft.
Good post. Thought provoking. I think these correlations do go over most players' heads. The only thing not explained is why she didn't ask Clementine and Jane if they wished to part ways with Kenny. After all, Jane and (determinantly) Clementine argue against going to Wellington in the group's final conversation/argument, prior to the theft.
(Sincere applause as I have nothing to add)
Another meaningless scene in a meaningless episode.
...of a meaningless season.
This post was really amazing. I am glad you wrote it, so others can understand Bonnie's POV a bit more.
of a meaningless game
of a meaningless planet
part of a meaningless galaxy
which is part of a meaningless universe full of meaninglessness
The thing is I understand Mike and Bonnie leaving but I still can't stand Bonnie at all
...In a meaningless existence.
I agree that it was despicable to leave these four people without the duffel bags. However, it is important to note that Clementine's wound has been bandaged once she wakes up, which means that medical supplies came from somewhere. The crew wasn't deprived of all supplies other than the truck.
Besides, everything that Bonnie, Mike and Arvo grab for themselves was the latter's, so, while it counts as leaving others to die, it doesn't qualify as theft.
The only reason I can think about is that, from their perspective, it was highly probable that Jane would approach Clementine and Clementine would subsequently tell the truth to Kenny—even though half of our Clementines wanted to go away.
(?) Your comment was thought-provoking. <s>
I liked Bonnie...sure trying to take the supplies was shitty and she will surely burn in some hell if she does not fix her ways. Would have been more understandable if they had smothered Kenny in his sleep. Hell I woulda helped write that scene.
It would have been more understandable if she let Arvo slit Jane's throat in her sleep.
What.
I'm interested. What makes you think that smothering Kenny would make her actions more understandable and not less?
Kenny was the problem in the group...he drove everyone nuts and was dangerous. Now the writers had her and Mike take Arvo and all the supplies and try to run off. This to me made absolutely no sense. Bonnie liked my Clementine a lot and cared about AJ. Kenny was still wounded...I would have had Mike and her smother him in his sleep...it would have been for the safety of the group and presumably could have blamed his death on the wounds.
The betrayal as plotted just made no fucking sense...and that's how I would have written it...it keeps Bonnie's intentions in keeping with her view of the rest of the group...as in not screwing everyone else over.
I'd say that she didn't ask Jane because they didn't really have a good relationship - Bonnie had been questioning how trustworthy Jane is and it's pretty evident that she was at least a little jealous of Jane's relationship with Luke or it could even be possible that she chose to leave Clementine in Jane's care since she didn't trust Kenny at that point and she may have believed that Jane wouldn't leave Clementine if Clementine wouldn't leave Kenny.
Well, we don't necessarily know if Kenny/Jane used medical supplies. They could've easily used something like a cloth or a piece of shirt to bandage up Clementine's wound, as there's never any hint given as to how they sorted out the bleeding. Though, considering the writers never made it too clear, it's left very ambiguous, so one one can say for sure.
While that is true, Arvo still promised to give the supplies in an attempt to absolve having nearly everyone killed. You're right, though, in the sense that he's the supposed actual owner of the supplies, but there's no denying, he did give the indication that the supplies were under the ownership of the entire group after his actions, and in my personal opinion, I do think that it's the least he could've done.
Um, no matter how irritating or irrational someone is, it's hard to justify outright murder. They should have taken the truck, Clem, Jane and AJ, and left some food and supplies for Kenny. I only shot Kenny because he would have killed Jane without hearing her side of the story. She doesn't specifically say she killed the baby. Had she been telling the truth, it could have been an accident. Jane played a dirty trick but I don't think she would have killed Kenny if not in self defense. I can't say the same for Kenny. However, I see no way to justify Bonnie smothering him just because he was overbearing and she felt bad for Arvo.
Yeah Kenny was unstable but murdering someone in the group over that makes someone even worse. It's basically combining the cold clinical planning of Jane with the harsh violence of Kenny. It's the worst of both characters together
Oh my goodness, we need this so much!
Part of me would like to think that getting away from Kenny was such a high priority that when they saw the opportunity presented, they just collected Arvo and his things and got ready to get out of there without really taking the time to think about asking Clementine if she wants to come.
The fact that she likely still has feelings for Kenny, not to mention the fact that Arvo would be uncomfortable around either one probably exacerbated that negligence.
I thought I had a counterpoint to this, but you ended up being pretty spot-on. Though considering he has a reason to hate most of the abandoned, I can see him giving a mighty fuck you to them.
Come to think of it, was it explicitly stated that they were taking the baby food as well? I can understand him leaving Clementine, Kenny, and Jane to be hungry, but I doubt that sentiment extended to the baby. After all, it was the main motivator for him trying to call things off and stand up to Buricko so no one would get shot.
You like the sound of that? I mean that's basically a Disney Villan.
"Even more reason to do it!,"
He said, unsure if he is being sarcastic or not.
All I can say is that if I was in Bonnie's situation, I would have tried to leave with Mike as well.
Great thread.
I agree with everything you say except that bringing Arvo is bad. The reason Mike tries to take him away is because Kenny was physically abusing him, and no-one deserves that. We don't know if Mike's intention was to stay with Arvo or to drop him somewhere else, only that it was to get him away from that abuse, and I find it hard to read that as bad.
It's never actually made clear how much or how little they may have taken. They could've taken the entire supplies, baby food and all, or maybe just took some, but for god knows what reason, Telltale decided to keep that unknown. I really couldn't say for sure, though, but it is possible that they did take everything, quickly loading all the supplies up and planning their hasty escape.
Okay.
Little facts like that can sometimes be left up to the imagination. It was clear that the scene was meant to show just how much in a hurry those three were to get away that they forgot some pretty obvious details. If you listen closely while sneaking up on them, Mike mentions that he forgot to look for the keys and assumes that Kenny must have them. So its pretty clear they didn't think this through very well.
Also, I'm sure Kenny and Jane would've mentioned whether they took all of the food and supplies or not. Assuming they didn't just get too distracted by talking shit to each other, anyway.
I'll be the first to admit, how Kenny treated Arvo was awful and is by far, probably his worst behaviour. There's no justifying it and Kenny was certainty in the wrong, but at the same time, I can still understand his thought process. Arvo with the rest of his group did nearly have everyone killed, risking AJ's life, who Kenny had developed an attachment to, so as a sort of revenge, he decided that abusing Arvo, who he didn't trust, blamed for the shootout and later, Luke's death, was okay. Of course, it wasn't, but I can understand why did behave like that.
Anyway, moving away from Kenny because he's not the point of this discussion, the reason I think bringing along Arvo with them was a bit of dick move is because, nearly 5 seconds previous, he'd helped in staging an attack against not just Clementine, Kenny, Luke and AJ, but Bonnie and Mike, themselves. They pretty much decided to help the lad, who, if his group had won the shootout, would've gladly left their corpses to rot whilst he stole their supplies.
EDIT: Fixed something.
I'm pretty sure that was a day or two ago when that happened.
Part of the reason Arvo only barely registered as a villain to me was because not only did Clementine and Jane start it when they stuck him up, but also because he seemed to have very low authority and very neutral intentions. While bringing his group along with him to get payback against their entire group was a dick move, I seemed relatively clear that Arvo had scruples about robbing them but Buricko ordered him to do so anyway. He also attempted to call it off altogether when not only did he and Natasha realize everything was going to end badly, but outright argued with Buricko when he realized they had a baby with them.
If you were referring to what happened after the battle, then Arvo was essentially a prisoner of war at that point; his group had been wiped out for the most part and Arvo himself was clearly in no mood to fight back. Plus, enemy or not, getting payback for the payback was not worth letting Kenny go psycho again and kill someone. So, their decision to take him with them when they decided to just leave the group made sense, because Kenny had already beaten the boy into a pulp for being sick of his shit, so who's to say he wouldn't just up and kill him for any trivial reason.
How hypo-fucking-critical is that from you! You go on about Kenny being evil and shit in many posts about all the bad things he's done and yet smothering him in his sleep is ok by you is it? Wow just wow.
dan290786:But what kind of person does that make you, if you try to hurt him back?
KennyshouldadiedinS1:... Uh, a hero?