The Hatred is Undeserving
The hatred towards Arvo (Walking Dead: Season 2 - Episodes 4-5) is completely unjustified. Sure, he shot Clementine, but other than that there is no reason as to why Arvo should be receiving the amount of hatred that he is. Everyone (probably thanks to Kenneth) believes Arvo is responsible for all of the mishaps and deaths (mainly Luke's death when he fell through the ice) that lead straight from the confrontation between his and Clementine's group when, in reality, there is no blame to be placed on anybody.
Try and give me a good argument as to why Arvo is such a bad guy or deserving of the hatred he receives, and I WILL be able to counter that argument. Guaranteed. (Trust me, I have a HUGE list that is meant to defend Arvo and his actions... HUGE.)
Comments
You are plain awesome.
No arguments there! ^_^
(But why am I awesome, if I might ask?)
Because of this thread. I've always thought that the hatred toward Arvo is undeserved when he was against the ambush in the first place.
Well, it wasn't an ambush; it was an attempt to steal from Clementine's group because he was (determinant) robbed or threatened. And he was all for the robbery, but when Clementine mentioned AJ, Arvo CLEARLY hesitated and attempted to tell his group.
That is what I'm saying. The translation from Russian shows that he never wanted to go along with the robbery, but Vitali—who mistakenly held Buricko's model in "Amid The Ruins"—was forcing all of them to do so, while Buricko—with Vitali's model in the fourth episode—also was enthusiastic about it.
Yeah, exactly! And because Arvo (and his sister, Natasha) were both just teenagers against adults, they really couldn't do much of anything about it. If Arvo was telling them that he was (again, determinant) robbed or just about robbed, then it makes sense that his group would want to teach Clementine's a lesson.
What I'm seeing is undeserving hatred towards Kenny lately blaming him for everything, I mean, there always is, but it's happening much more lately. I thought that stage was over, but it seems it won't ever end. Just my opinion. I'm not gonna bash on Arvo. My doubt is, why did Arvo try to kill Clem, instead of trying to kill the source of his problems (Kenny)? He could've sneaked up on him while he slept and stab his brains in or something.
1) Arvo was tied up. 2) Mike and Bonnie probably wouldn't let him. 3) The reason he shot Clementine was because he hated her for killing his sister. To recap the confrontation between Arvo and Clementine's group, he was trying to revive his sister, Natasha, but the Kenneth uses him as a hostage. Arvo's sister then reanimates and Clementine is FORCED to shoot her (trust me, I didn't shoot her but then she ate my face). Arvo, who DID NOT know that his sister had reanimated, looked at Clementine with rage in his eyes; he thought Clementine murdered his sister (who didn't have a weapon) in cold blood. That's why there was so much resentment towards Clementine from Arvo.
And yes, the excessive hatred towards Kenneth is undeserved, but the hatred I have is because he was abusing Arvo. That's justified.
That is right. And it is not like Arvo and Natasha could decide to take off and ditch Vitali and Buricko to avoid robbing—one, because I doubt that they would get far before being caught, and two, due to the fact that one of them had a constant sickness and needed medicine and the other wore a leg brace, so both needed the protection that being with the two men offered.
EXACTLY!!
But he could've done it before robbing the group. After all Mike and Bonnie agreed to leave with him and they hated Kenny's guts too. Clementine can defend Arvo when Kenny is beating him, showing she cared for him. She can also tell Kenny to cut Arvo some slack and not to be so hostile towards him. Many people say Arvo is just a scared kid, but following that logic, Clem is younger, and she was determinantly unarmed when he shoots her. He doesn't hesistate in robbing a baby either.
Well, then you can also understand why some people can hate Arvo for shooting Clem, right?
Where have you been for the past seven months!
It's been some dark times.
Perhaps he did not attempt to kill Kenny because he did not plan to kill anybody until the choice was literally presented upon him perfectly. This is an aspect of him that I hadn't considered until now.
He didn't need to shoot Clem either, he was already leaving and Clem could've been unarmed. He could've just gotten into the truck with Bonnie and Mike and just leave.
I was responding to this question.
Yeah, I know, but still he tries to kill Clem when there wasn't any need to. I could understand him shooting her if you shot Mike though (I'm not sure why did they remove that decision?).
As far as his knowledge went, Clementine killed his sister in cold blood while the latter was crawling to safety, and the girl did not even bother to apologize for it or talk to him about it. A person like that did not deserve compassion in his eyes.
Because he wore a leg brace, and his sister had a decease that required a constant supply of medicine, and because of this, they needed protection from Vitali and Buricko. Therefore, they could not desert the two due to being in opposition to the ambush, because it would mean certain death.
Please specify.
I honestly agree. I couldn't help but feel a lot of sympathy towards the guy. He wasn't exactly Mr. Evil. You can tell right off the bat that he's at a great disadvantage. He's scrawny, has the leg brace, and all around appears to be very non-threatening. Of course looks can be deceiving, but in this scenerio he truly was not a threat. Jane takes his gun no matter what, which leaves him defenseless. Do you really think he's good at hand-to-hand zombie combat? Do you truly believe that he could've outrun any walkers that found him? By taking his gun, Jane seemingly condemned him to death. On top of that, you can determinantly steal his sister's medicine. It sounded to me as if she truly needed that medicine and I got the idea that he was being sincere. I never really saw the evidence that he was lying about his sister. They did set up the situation to make him seem a little bit shady, but I personally choose to believe Natasha truly was ill. (He wasn't lying about having a sister, her skin-tone)
Afterwards, you have the ambush scene. I understand if you wouldn't trust Arvo afterwards, but I always got the idea that he was being forced into it. He was the only member of his group that spoke English, and it seemed that his buddies wanted revenge, not him. Arvo seemed like the kind of person that could be pushed around. Buricko was built and Vitali was insane. I do not think you would want to oppose those two dudes. He appeared to be rather regretful once his gaze set on AJ, and I believe if he was in charge the ambush wouldn't have occurred. He also remained very passive during the shooting itself.
Then you have Kenny's mistreatment of him. This was one thing that I absolutely hated to watch. Kenny yelled at him, insulted him, beat him, was very cold, ect. I found it to be very heart-breaking when he was bound up, bruised, and bloodied while everyone else sat around the warm fire. All he seemed to care about was his dead sister. Kenny's determinant beating right there was just horrible.
The one thing that I do slightly hold against Arvo is him shooting Clementine. If the girl was nothing but kind to him and even offered to leave with the three (or two), then he really didn't have that much of a reason to shoot her. Still, I get it in any other determinant combinations. No matter how you treated Arvo himself, if you did not want to leave Kenny and Jane, then his actions make more sense. He probably figured you were going to call Kenny and Jane. Arvo wasn't exactly either of the two's pals. Kenny was just...awful and Jane stole his only protection and goaded Clementine to steal from him. He just wanted to protect himself. It was horrible of him, but he was probably completely terrified. It wasn't a cold and calculated plan. Him shooting Clementine was a result of spur of the moment terror. I get that he easily could've killed Clementine, but he didn't. It just as easily could have happened, but since it didn't, I don't feel too strongly against him. However, there are opposite sides to all of this and I completely understand why someone would hate Arvo's guts. There are also opposing interpretations to basically everything. These are just my interpretations and opinions on the topic.
LOL
Both of their groups were in a fight. Even she were alive she was seen as an enemy of Clem's group. She might have been killed whether she was alive or not. Plus, she had a walker look about her, her skin changed to a more green color and here eyes went white. But I'll disregard that as a suspension of disbelief.
We don't even know if his sister being sick was true. And why did he have to lie and say Clem stole his medicine when she didn't?
This one is small, but it does bother me, it's after the gunfight and Luke said he needed to rest, so Kenny tells him to wait and he just keeps on walking and then Kenny pushes him. Everybody starts giving an excuse that he doesn't understand English even though he understood Clem and Jane fine before.
I don't think the hate Arvo gets is unreasonable at all. Some people take it too far, sure, saying that he should be killed in cold blood if they ever find him again but other people also take it too far to try and make it seem like he's some sort of angel who did nothing wrong.
Arvo and his group ambush you. Tere's no denying to that. They were a group of bandits, they try to take your stuff even if you don't steal from them. And, I know, some people argue that he may not have wanted the ambush to happen, but we can't forget that that's only an assumption with very little base to it. Just because Buriko and Vitali look like the 'though' ones, it doesn't mean that they're atomatically the ones that planned the ambush. That's generalizing them based on their looks. And we also can't forget the smug face and tone Arvo gives while saying the lines 'But, you... You're Clementine.' - Arvo in Amid The Ruins while smilling like he was actually happy that they had found them, and also the coldness in his voice while saying 'I told them you're the ones who robbed me. They think it's funny that you're just a little girl.' (- Arvo, ATR) this shows that he dispised Clem and her group as much as the people in his group did.
When Buriko and everyone else start pointing guns at eachother, Arvo becomes preocupied and warry, but not because he doesn't want anyone to die and doesn't want to see violence as some people make it out to be, but because he and his sister were in danger. That's all there is to it, nothing points otherwise (and let me know if you find anything).
Arvo got his punishment when he lost his whole group. There was no need to make him pay for his mistakes anymore, loosing everyone and everything because of his own mistakes was enough pain already but that does not mean that people should forget what he had done.
Shooting Clem was the result of several beatings from Kenny, the loss of everyone he knew and the false assumption that Clem had killed his sister. I still think he acted wrongly when shooting Clem, of course. She had lowered her gun and had agreed to come with them and he still shot her.
I don't particularly like Arvo. I think what he did was wrong and immoral. Sure, I felt sympathy for the kid, Kenny had been beating the shit out of him for days, but that still doesn't justify his manslaughter (I wish I used the right word here!) attempt on Clem. I also don't think that killing him on first sight if we ever find him again is justifiable in any way, we gotta understand that he was under extremely bad conditions, psychologically and physically, when he did it, but he's surely not to be trusted.
When he heard about the baby, he REALLY hesitated! And even though you (determinant) defend Arvo and try to get Kenneth to stop beating on him, that still doesn't make up for the murder of his sister. Put yourself in his shoes - if your most loved one was murdered in cold blood, how would YOU react? Sure, there may be acts of kindness from the person who committed the murder, but that can never make up for losing your loved one. Forgiveness NEVER comes easy. Also, why would Arvo shoot Kenneth when there was the confrontation? He also didn't have a gun... At all... during the confrontation.
And I did say that his shooting Clementine was justified, and the hatred towards Arvo for shooting Clementine is enough reason to hate him. HOWEVER, there is more hate for Arvo for extremely unnecessary and illogical reasons. And if you watch, Arvo does seem surprised and seems almost remorseful that he shot Clementine - I remember someone I talked with said that he looked surprised/shocked that she got shot, so there is a MINOR possibility that he accidentally shot Clementine.
In a sense, Arvo IS a scared child, but he is also a vengeful, hurting one.
1) Arvo could've easily had a slip of the finger (I forget who I talked with and they brought that up) - he looked surprised when she got shot and almost remorseful. Also, if that isn't enough, there was so much hatred towards Clementine because he thought she murdered his sister, Natasha. To recap the confrontation, Arvo is seen trying to revive Natasha, his sister (unknown if she is older or younger). Kenny then uses him as a meat-shield and Natasha reanimates. Clementine is forced to shoot Natasha and Arvo, who DID NOT know that his sister had reanimated, believes that Clementine murdered his sister in cold blood.
2) This was just brought up with BetterToSleep - he probably told his group, which is filled with adults, that he was (determinant) robbed or almost robbed. His group probably wanted to make an example out of whoever tried to rob him. You try walking away or arguing with adults with GUNS when you're a physically disabled or a (his sister) sick teenager.
3) Look it up on the wiki - it is said that he failed to stop right away. So, I think there was a possibility that his leg might have had something to do with his inability to stop right away. Also, he is NOT fluent in English so it is possible that it didn't register right away. And don't you call him stupid! Regardless of him not listening right away, that is NO EXCUSE for Kenny being physically abusive.
Well, I meant, when he robs you afterwards with Bonnie and Mike's help.
Yeah, I'd definitely hate them, but I'd also see they cared for me since they tried to protect me ever since. I wouldn't try to kill them though.
I mean afterwards, before he leaves with the supplies, he could've sneaked into Kenny's room while he slept and stab his brains in. I'm sure Bonnie and Mike wouldn't mind.
Maybe, but maybe he seems surprised and remorseful because he realized he screwed up and now he would have to run for his life since Kenny was about to come out. It's a possibility.
I agree with everything you've said, but I cannot help but feel the need to clarify why Arvo shot Clementine.
1) I remember a discussion with someone and he looked surprised/shocked that she got shot and he almost looked remorseful. There is a SMALL possibility that he had a slip of the finger.
2) Clementine killed his sister, Natasha. To recap the confrontation, Arvo is seen trying to revive his sister, Natasha. Kenny then uses Arvo as a hostage, preventing him from possibly reviving his sister. Then Natasha reanimates and Clementine is FORCED to shoot Natasha (I've tried to not shoot her, but I get my face chomped...). Arvo, who did NOT know that his sister had reanimated, thinks that Clementine had murdered his sister in cold blood. The resentments were there and him shooting her was SOMEWHAT justified, but not entirely. Even though you show him kindness, that does not eliminate the fact that Clementine shot his sister, the only other person that mattered to him.
It appears obvious to us, but Arvo was being held hostage when Natasha reanimated, and by the time that he managed to set himself free, she had already been shot in the face by Clementine. I don't blame a regular young adult for not knowing how human decomposition works on skin tone.
While this is true, I am not going to be on good terms with the person who supposedly killed my last family member, even though we were in a fire fight. The circumstances would justify what Clementine did if Natasha had been alive, but they would not invalidate Arvo's anger. His sister was killed and that is that, regardless of the situation, and it is even more awkward when things cool down and the kid doesn't even pronounce a word about it.
The case is that the Russian group had a large number of medicine for some reason, and Natasha's skin had a green-yellowish tone, adding to that that Arvo is convincing when he talks about Natasha in "Amid The Ruins."
He doesn't actually tell his group that some people stole his medicine if these people didn't—he tells them that they robbed him, period, which is true, because Jane takes his gun nonetheless and sends him on a trip home in which he miraculously didn't encounter walkers. If he had, he would have been devoured, unless he secretly knows how to use the leg brace to his advantage.
This segment got on my nerves as well, but how can you dislike him for doing something which caused Kenny to beat him? The only one who was harmed by it was Arvo himself.
1) It was probably B and M's idea to take the stuff, anyways, considering they're the adults. Also, they were gonna be on the move, so how else would they be able to survive on the road?
2) Yeah, sure. Listen, NOBODY can truly say what they'd do or feel in situations like that, but think realiztically. No matter how much kindness is shown, the hatred and the bitterness and anger is always gonna be there (as well as the mistrust).
3) Yeah, no, M and B both have souls and consciences, they DEFINITELY wouldn't have allowed him to kill Kenny. And if he did then they would be caught and there would be no getting out of there.
4) That's a good point, but still, they didn't know anybody was gonna come outside. What, did Arvo have some psychic powers and knew that Kenny would be out, first?
I don't think so. Look at all the death glares he gives Clem throughout the whole episode, right after Luke dies is a prefect example. He wanted to shoot her. Plus, it's not an automatic "OMG" look, he looks angry at first, then regretful. He wanted to shoot her, but he felt bad after doing so.
Why was he trying to hide the medicine in the first place? And Arvo does say Clem robbed him, not almost robbed, robbed. And even if you steal from him, it's just a pill a bottle, it's not like Clem took the whole bag.
Never trust the wiki, it can be edited by anyone. Even if that's true, where is that in game? He's not fluent in English but he can sure as hell understand what the words mean. Look at the difference from Ep4 and Ep5. He understood Clem and Jane fine when they met. Now he can't understand a single word?
I truly do see your points, here, but Arvo wasn't deserving of the hate that he is currently receiving.
The tone in his voice wasn't cold, per se, but it was more of a tone that said "I don't like how they're laughing at me".
He, yes, didn't want he or his sister to get hurt. But also, you gotta remember that there was a baby involved and he has morals.
I also forgot to mention, it wasn't Arvo's fault that the gunfight started. His group members got startled when Rebecca was shot by (determinant) you or Kenny. Thinking that they were being shot at, the Russian group shot back. It wasn't really anybody's fault.
It is a determinant if Clem wants to go with them or not. Also, if he wanted to kill Clementine, he would've killed her! Arvo had to have had a good aim. I doubt he would've shot her in that not-so-vital-area on purpose.
It was a stupid idea itself to abandon the group, especially with the harsh weather going on.
I'm not the type of person to kill anyone. It's just I don't have it in me. I'd hate them deeply, horribly, but I'd be unable to kill them, especially kids. I think if an apocalypse happened, I'd be one of the first to bite the dust.
If they have souls and consciences, why were they okay with leaving AJ and Clem without supplies? Clem can even ask Mike to go with them and all. And I don't think they'd be caught since Arvo could just stab Kenny's head.
He just shot her, of course that would wake Jane and Kenny up. Plus Kenny was already looking for Clem when he heard the shot, also determinantly Clem can call for them before Arvo shoots her.
1) He gave her death glares because she killed his sister, mate! And it should be good enough to know that he regretted it...
2) Clementine was there when the robbery attempt was mentioned by Jane. He generalized Clementine as one who was there,and yes, he doesn't say 'one of the ones'. You can also tell him that it was Jane who wanted to steal from him and he asks where she was. And he had a sick sister; Natasha is proof of that. If you ask him about his sister, the reason he sounded hesitant was probably because he had a group with him. He appeared to be alone but his group was hiding.
3) I never said he didn't understand a single word; please, this is meant to be pleasant and calm debating, don;t stuff words down my throat. And keep in mind that his leg could've easily played a part in him not stopping. (Note how I keep adding probably's and might's and the like - none of this is what I COMPLETELY believe - these are just theories. Nobody really knows anything).
Also add that it's been 2 years into the zombie apocalypse, they should know how the infection works. Plus, since he was doing CPR on her, that shows that she died. And he's trying to get her heart beating and since he was pulled away by Kenny, he lost the time to save her.
I don't hate him for being not on good terms with Clementine, but he unfairly blames Clem even he was the one to lead his group to her.
Why would Arvo expect to have his gun given back? They were strangers at this point and he could've been seen as dangerous, what could've stopped him from holding Clem and Jane up after it was given back? Like I said before this 2 into the ZA, he should know how things work.
I admit that's just a small gripe. Obviously my problems start with his lying and eventually shooting Clem.
Some points regarding the Arvo situation.
1) Jane and Clementine put a chain of events into motion when they robbed him (either of his supplies and gun or just his gun) and then Jane threatens to kill him if she sees him again.
2) Arvo's group was justified in getting their revenge and Clementine and Jane should have expected it. I've seen people say that his group were bandits. If that's the case then Clementine and Jane should also be considered bandits to a degree by robbing him in the first place.
3) I was absolutely stunned at the groups lack of loyalty to Kenny in the shootout. This guy has a bunch of Russians trying to fucking kill him, he cleverly manages to get the drop on Arvo and use him as a shield and the group are more concerned about Arvo's safety than Kenny's? Lmao... I think there was even a option for Clementine to tell Kenny to leave the kid alone (an option which I most definitely didn't press). Had I been Kenny then, I would have had to consider executing everyone that showed disloyalty to him then and there.
4) After the shootout a lot of groups would have just killed Arvo and not let him come with him. Dunno how much of you watch the show, but there is no way on Earth Rick's group would have let him live if something similar had happened.
5) I didn't trust him at all after the shootout and didn't really care about how Kenny was treating him after him and his group (understandably from his point of view) tried to get the entire group killed.
6) Him shooting Clementine didn't really surprise me and was an understandable thing to do for a guy in his situation. He should have also tried to kill Jane and Kenny as well for good measure, if he had the opportunity.
1) They wanted to get away from a nearly psychotic Kenneth. And they were gonna use the truck, in case you forgot. So, yeah, smarter than walking...
2) Yeah, that's understandable but remember - this is Arvo as well as a video game.
3) I think I remember a conversation either in the truck or with Jane that there was still baby formula for AJ - I doubt they would've left AJ without food. They probably knew that the adults could find food they needed.
4) I see your point. But I doubt that he would've thought "I done -bleeped- up" when he shot her. If he was thinking about consequences, he would've probably already been thinking about them BEFORE shooting Clementine - he definitely had the time to think about it.
(Sorry if I seem to be getting hostile - I have a passion for debating ^_^)
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm using to debate here; you summed it up real nicely! ^_^
You're ignoring the scenario were Jane and Clem don't rob them. In that case, what is Arvo's group if not bandits?
And seriously, risking their lives attempting to rob a group of people that clearly outnumbered them for a little stash of painkillers? They must be very terretorial bandits (and suicidal!).
Just because he regretted it doesn't excuse him for intentionally trying to kill Clem.
If you tell him Jane is close by, he just says it's a trap and continues trying to rob the group. What proof shows Natasha is sick? Seems heathy enough to get into a firefight.
I don't mean to sound harsh, but you did come at me with "And don't you call him stupid!"
Kenny was deeply hostile towards Arvo, it's true, but I doubt he would've killed him, not with Clem telling him no to do it.
Fair enough.
Even though, finding food in those conditions isn't exactly easy. Babies need constant care.
I also think he did want Clem dead since the moment she shoots his sister. It's also a possibility that he just panicked at the thought of Clem finding out they were leaving and he just shot out of instinct, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.
(And naw, don't worry, this is probably one of the most civil discussions I had. It feels good to discuss things this way without people getting personal and to each other's throats. It's just perspective and opinions, they're all valid and they all should be respected. Nobody's wrong. People should be able to discuss each other's point of view in a civil manner.
)
He shot Clementine, that's, by itself, a good enough reason for me to hate him ( And possibly want him dead lol )