Did you forget that Jane protected Jaime more than six times as much time as Lee protected Clementine?
But in the end. She didn't. And again, Lee is just an fucking example, nothing else.
That cold car is warmer that the raging blizzard outside.
Even if that is true, you can't see anything out in the blizzard, they could've lost him, or something could have happened when he was left alone.
And don't understand me wrong, I like Jane, I don't hate her, but some Jane fans think she's all good things, Kenny also did many stupid things that made me mad, for example Arvo, he didn't had the right to beat the kid almost to death, there is where I agreed with Jane and not for first time. I'm just saying no-one is perfect.
Jane's ideology has to do with it because she says if someone's in trouble don't let him drag you down, and that with Lee-Clementine was jus… moret an example of what Lee did when Clem was on trouble, he saved her. I don't think if Jane was in Lee's place would do the same.
Did you forget that Jane protected Jaime more than six times as much time as Lee protected Clementine? She was in that position as well and she decided to keep her safe, for possibly two years or more, instead of ditching her like you said you think she would.
Oh, and she potentially protects Clementine as well starting from "No Going Back."
Like putting him in a cold car where he could've died from it?
That cold car is warmer that the raging blizzard outside.
You are coming across as deliberately ignorant, Lee.
Because she didn't like AJ and she'd made it clear. And doing something that would provoke anyone to prove that person is unstable isn't som… moreething someone smart does.
Hey. I poked a bear in the eye and it mauled me to death. See I told you bears kill humans.
Because she didn't like AJ and she'd made it clear.
Placing a newborn baby inside a car to protect it from a harsh blizzard to prevent him from suffocating or freezing to death isn't what I would consider making it clear that she didn't like AJ.
It would have been so much easier for Jane to simply toss the baby in a snow pile or in the path of a walker, and yet she refused to do either of those thing once she knew no-one was around to watch her carry out her plan.
She made sure the baby was going to be alive and breathing, even if it means carrying out her ridiculous plan with provoking Kenny enough to prove a point to Clementine. If she truly disliked AJ, then it makes no sense for the baby to continue being alive once he was in Jane's hands, and she was alone for a good minute or two to do whatever she wanted with him.
Because she didn't like AJ and she'd made it clear. And doing something that would provoke anyone to prove that person is unstable isn't som… moreething someone smart does.
Hey. I poked a bear in the eye and it mauled me to death. See I told you bears kill humans.
You know what, it took me this long to realize this is actually one of those narrow-topic threads that I'm so finicky about creating. Granted, I'd say Jane probably deserves one half as much as Kenny does, so I guess it's okay.
Honestly, considering how successful this thread seems to be, maybe I might consider moving forward with an idea of my own...
I agree to a point. It's clear that Carver, much like Luke, Sarah, Bonnie, Jane, and Arvo, took some form interest in Clementine, if only for egotistical reasons, so him going "easy" on her wouldn't be completely out of the question. However, he also likes hurting people and reinforcing his authority in the most brutal manner possible, so he also could've beat the shit out of her if he felt like it.
2. Technically, he did. Also, its not like he couldn't have taken it further, because he quite obviously had an opportunity where he could, its just that we never follow up on that situation from Sarah's perspective.
You make a good point, to be honest I wouldn't be too surprised if Carver did wind up hurting Clementine since he'd likely feel he had the right to do so - someone attempting to use the radio and a new individual as well - if Clementine saved Alvin and got slapped by Carver earlier he already hurt Clementine so that's some evidence to back that up.
I'm a little more iffy about the situation with Sarah, at least if she was Clementine's friend, in that scenario I'd feel that Sarah would at least mention Carver hurting her directly in some way.
Yeah, he freaked out sure, but he literally stood there, his son already safe and rather than putting Duck down and trying to help Lee save … moreShawn, he chose to 'save' an individual whose life was no longer at risk.
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this point.
1.What evidence do you have to back up this theory? 2.He could've easily punished Sarah and with his mind state, he would have the right to do so,
1. I agree to a point. It's clear that Carver, much like Luke, Sarah, Bonnie, Jane, and Arvo, took some form interest in Clementine, if only for egotistical reasons, so him going "easy" on her wouldn't be completely out of the question. However, he also likes hurting people and reinforcing his authority in the most brutal manner possible, so he also could've beat the shit out of her if he felt like it.
2. Technically, he did. Also, its not like he couldn't have taken it further, because he quite obviously had an opportuni… [view original content]
But in the end. She didn't. And again, Lee is just an fucking example, nothing else.
Because she couldn't, Jane explained her story - she dragged Jaime around six states but no matter what she did, her sister didn't want to live in a post-apocalyptic world. One day, when they were getting swarmed and Jane was unable to throw her sister to safety without risking killing her, she made the tough decision(which still emotionally impacts her) to leave Jaime behind - which is what she wanted. If anything, one could argue that Jane forcing her sister to live in a world she clearly didn't want to live in is worse than giving her what she wanted and technically, since Jane never looked back or mentioned any screaming, it's possible that Jaime might actually be alive, it may be unlikely but it's possible - I mean, Glenn survived and made it to that dumpster.
Even if that is true, you can't see anything out in the blizzard, they could've lost him, or something could have happened when he was left alone.
More dangerous things would've happened to AJ in a blizzard than in a car but of course, TTG's writing seems to have made that baby cold-resistant xD The Walking Dead? I feel like The Super Humans might fit.
And don't understand me wrong, I like Jane, I don't hate her, but some Jane fans think she's all good things, Kenny also did many stupid things that made me mad, for example Arvo, he didn't had the right to beat the kid almost to death, there is where I agreed with Jane and not for first time. I'm just saying no-one is perfect.
What's wrong with that? There are a heck of allot of Kenny fans that believe he's all good things as well. There's nothing wrong with liking a character and having the personal opinion that they were right in all or most situations but if you argue that point, of course you have to prepare for opposing opinions.
At least we're in agreement about Kenny's treatment of Arvo.
Did you forget that Jane protected Jaime more than six times as much time as Lee protected Clementine?
But in the end. She didn't. A… morend again, Lee is just an fucking example, nothing else.
That cold car is warmer that the raging blizzard outside.
Even if that is true, you can't see anything out in the blizzard, they could've lost him, or something could have happened when he was left alone.
And don't understand me wrong, I like Jane, I don't hate her, but some Jane fans think she's all good things, Kenny also did many stupid things that made me mad, for example Arvo, he didn't had the right to beat the kid almost to death, there is where I agreed with Jane and not for first time. I'm just saying no-one is perfect.
Maybe, depends on how they would've gone about presenting the situation though, I'm inclined to believe that Lilly would've eventually forgiven Kenny and they never really hated one another, even after Larry was killed.
The only reason I don't think it would've been that great is because two characters from Season One whose fates we did not learn both return in Season Two and restart their bickering? I feel like their arguments would've taken center stage again and I very much prefer that it's between at least one new character now, although I hope Season Three doesn't repeat the 'choose whose side you're on' decision again, at least not in the spotlight. Just my personal opinion though.
They had massive disagreements in season one...however having her in season two instead of Jane would have been more interesting and believable than the Jane/Kenny fight.
Because she didn't like AJ and she'd made it clear.
Actually I believe that Jane was warming up to AJ:
Jane does take care of AJ when they reach the Russians' house and there's a moment Clementine shares with them.
Jane brings up Howe's in the discussion in the car(after Clementine is shot) of where they should go because there's baby formula for AJ there.
Jane, again, takes care of AJ - now in the blizzard. Jane could've made her story more believable by leaving AJ to die in the blizzard but she chose to leave him in the safety of the car - considering that she likely wouldn't have known that Clementine and Kenny were in the Pit Stop, she might have even left AJ in there to protect him whilst she scouted out whether the area was safe or whether Clementine and Kenny were in there(not having a baby in-hand makes it easier to fight back if needed) and she could've fabricated her plan as she saw Clementine and Kenny.
Because she didn't like AJ and she'd made it clear. And doing something that would provoke anyone to prove that person is unstable isn't som… moreething someone smart does.
Hey. I poked a bear in the eye and it mauled me to death. See I told you bears kill humans.
My apologies. I thought you were being sarcastic. I jumped the gun there, sorry. You haven't said anything in the past for me to say that, t… morehat comment was based only on the comment where I thought you were being patronising, which now I see I was wrong about.
I believe it would've been a correct writing decision if the conflict of Season Two had relied on Jane, Carlos and Bonnie. All three had relationships of their own with William Carver as well, so that would've been interesting; they just would've had to make the three more relatable and controversial.
Ah, but then we got this.
I hope Season Three doesn't repeat the 'choose whose side you're on' decision again, at least not in the spotlight.
I'd think that the main goal will be to control the situation with the antagonists with the cow-branders.
Maybe, depends on how they would've gone about presenting the situation though, I'm inclined to believe that Lilly would've eventually forgi… moreven Kenny and they never really hated one another, even after Larry was killed.
The only reason I don't think it would've been that great is because two characters from Season One whose fates we did not learn both return in Season Two and restart their bickering? I feel like their arguments would've taken center stage again and I very much prefer that it's between at least one new character now, although I hope Season Three doesn't repeat the 'choose whose side you're on' decision again, at least not in the spotlight. Just my personal opinion though.
You know Clementine could save herself without Jane's help right?
Could she? From what I remember, Clementine herself was having trouble sneaking out of the walker horde until Jane showed up.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the proof I mentioned earlier, she does everything for her sister (but in the end she didn't), Clementine or herself.
That's selfless - she thinks of the safety of the people she cares the most about and with her survivalist mentality she's probably grown accustom to watching out for 'liabilities' - it still doesn't change the fact that she's willing to go against her mind state and ideologies just to give a stranger a chance. I don't like that Jane didn't want to save Sarah at first but the fact that she does so long as Clementine is persistent and risks her life in doing so is good enough for me.
Hmm.... Maybe it's based on the choices earlier just like Clementine shooting Lee or Roman executing Roberto, if not then I'm happy.
Jane chooses to save Sarah herself if Clementine stays silent regardless of past decisions - I'm not sure if there were even allot of causes and consequences in Season Two to be honest.
I never said that's selfless, I said that she left the group because she didn't want to see other people die is selfless.
And actually, I can say that it was 90% for Clementine because Jane herself said that.
Okay. She said probably 90%, even then I doubt Jane knew herself precisely how much of the reason was for Clementine but I wouldn't doubt it and it still emphasizes her selflessness.
Actually, Luke and Kenny had the plan, Jane just had the idea of putting walker guts, and she had to give the idea because others made the plan and she had no choice but not to leave them behind, if anyone had that idea they wouldn't leave it for themselves because later they could see the trick and do it themselves.
Jane was the only who contributed a logical way to maneuver through the walker horde - her addition was vital for their escape plan to succeed and not only that, she's also the one that prevents Troy from following or hurting anyone in the group.
She did that because she wanted to be alone with Clem and not because she wanted to find everyone else.
True, that was her intent but she's still the only other group member that tries to do something.
Woohh... It's too hard and takes too much time to learn someone a knee trick. Did she learned her how to use a nail file properly?
More than anyone else ever did. Who else gave Clementine the time to teach her something that would help her survive? Jane is the only one, also Christa, that at least tries to teach Clementine something - I think Kenny could've tried to teach Clementine how to fix vehicles.
Everyone (except Sarah) did something here, and if we're looking to the characters like that.
Kenny fight off the walkers at the meeting point to protect everyone.
Kenny helped Rebecca with her child.
Kenny prevents Carver from harming anyone.
I didn't mean anything of those 3 examples I gave, I just mentioned Kenny in the same way you mentioned Jane.
Jane did the most - being the last one to enter the room after killing several Walkers - I don't deny that Clementine and Luke played roles, all three of them did good.
Except:
Kenny didn't need to fight off any of the walkers, he could've just left with everyone else - he literally walked up towards one and continuously bashed it's head in after it was dead.
That was good of him.
He could've done so by just shooting him rather than take the risk of wasting any time to bash his skull in - which certainly didn't help his image within the group.
It was high from the walkers and there was a chance they could find food there so.. Why not?
The point is she does something that is useful, saying why not doesn't change the effectiveness of her action.
I don't think she would do that if she knew that she would get hit in the head with a plank of wood.
Considering that Walkers were surrounding the place, she already made a potential risk. Adding a personal believe to what would've happened if the character had foresight doesn't really change anything, that's like saying I think Kenny would've killed Ben if he had known he was stealing medicine earlier.
I would've preferred her to not give the nail file because Clementine doesn't know how to use it. I just think the nail file is some sort of symbol for them two.
It's a nail file...
Because Kenny trusts mostly Clementine, how selfless of Jane (I'm being sarcastic)
The point is, Jane tries to get Clementine to look out for Kenny as she is the only person he's got at this point.
Because it's Clementine and not anyone else.. duuhhhh. Also Kenny was too far to help her, even if he tried he wouldn't be there in time, what if we swapped their places? it would be Kenny to pull Clementine back, it makes no difference.
Except I doubt that Jane would've chased Arvo and risked falling into the frozen lake herself and Kenny, being heavier than Jane, may have broken the ice and caused both of them to drown. There are likely differences if roles are changed, despite popular belief.
I don't think everyone could go to the fireplace and try everyone together to light a fire, again, if she wasn't there Mike or Kenny would do it.
If she wasn't there and Clementine and Bonnie fell into the lake, they wouldn't have a reason to as both of them would've drowned. Remember that Kenny was too busy beating up Arvo and then he decided to work on the truck, Mike was more focused on Arvo's well-being than that of Clementine or Bonnie's.
And with that logic, Kenny believes that Wellington is the best place for a baby because it would be safe from walkers and probably they would be warm there with fire or something, plus clothes are always an option. I don't say Wellington is better (I actually think it is but we're not talking about that) but they both try to find a place to survive, the difference is that Jane wanted a place to survive while Kenny wanted a place for Clementine and AJ to stay, he didn't actually thought for himself at that moment because he was willing to stay behind so Clementine and AJ could go.
Except that he doesn't know if it even exists or not, all he's heard is rumors. Even after discovering Wellington, we don't even know how dangerous the place is - the only indication of the types of people there being Edith and their form of hospitality towards survivors they turn away. They could've went back to Howe's, re-fortified the place making it safe from walkers, it would've been warm there as well and they likely would've had clothes. Jane didn't bring up Howe's for her own survival, she was thinking of the well-fare of AJ and likely Clementine.
About Jane and AJ... She doesn't really care about him, because like she said: It's her baby. Not mine. Or yours. Which could've mean she doesn't want to raise him.
Actually, she's shown several times that she at least somewhat cares about AJ - willing to look after him, not killing him and leaving him in a safer place(the car) rather than keeping him out in the blizzard where he's most likely to die, thinking about AJ's well-being as she mentions Howe's having baby formula. Did Jane say that line beforeorafter Rebecca gave birth?
Really? Because I remember she thanked you for making them leave and that she just didn't have the guts to make them leave.
Yes really, look it up. She may have wanted them to believe but it's clear that her ideologies were conflicting or changing at the point forward, which is why she chooses to give them a chance if Clementine doesn't - if she was the same person as she was before, then she may have turned them away.
That doesn't change the fact that she's the reason Clementine, Rebecca and in turn, AJ, got out of the walker horde alive.
You know … moreClementine could save herself without Jane's help right?
Can you truly prove that when people are surprised by instances like Mike and Bonnie leaving the group and taking all the supplies? Fact is, Jane did it, not everyone and yeah, Jane wanted to leave Sarah behind but she can risk her life twice if Clementine chooses not to abandon her.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the proof I mentioned earlier, she does everything for her sister (but in the end she didn't), Clementine or herself.
Actually no, Jane also tries to save Sarah if Clementine remains silent and the fact is, she still tries to help Sarah and is the only one who actually tries to. You can say Mike and Bonnie helped but they didn't go down there trying to save her like Jane did.
Hmm.... Maybe it's based on the … [view original content]
I'm a little more iffy about the situation with Sarah, at least if she was Clementine's friend, in that scenario I'd feel that Sarah would at least mention Carver hurting her directly in some way.
That scene is a perfect example of yet another wasted opportunity in an already bare bones episode, if I'm being honest. I talked about this somewhere else before, but as I found out by rewatching the cutscenes, Carver apparently had plans for Sarah as well as Clementine: after he murders Reggie(over some f@ckin berries, no less), he explains that weakness (and incompetence in doing what they're asked to) won't be tolerated. Notably, he used looks at Sarah when saying this, as if using Reggie's murder to intimidate Sarah specifically (which he even non-verbally gets across to Clementine). After sternly sending Clementine off for her next assignment with Bonnie, he is seen walking and putting a hand on Sarah's shoulder while tilting his head in that sort of "Just between you and me" type of way. Nothing ever directly comes of this, though. Another problem that most of the characters had that affected Sarah as well was that her feelings about a particular subject or situation aren't really focused on or given a opportunity to be talked about on the side. This includes certain major events from her perspective involving Nick, Reggie, Kenny, Sarita, and Jane.
On a side note, its also where some of my initial ideas about Sarah's character arc was officially validated....
* I agree to a point. It's clear that Carver, much like Luke, Sarah, Bonnie, Jane, and Arvo, took some form interest in Clementine, if only … morefor egotistical reasons, so him going "easy" on her wouldn't be completely out of the question. However, he also likes hurting people and reinforcing his authority in the most brutal manner possible, so he also could've beat the shit out of her if he felt like it.
2. Technically, he did. Also, its not like he couldn't have taken it further, because he quite obviously had an opportunity where he could, its just that we never follow up on that situation from Sarah's perspective.
* You make a good point, to be honest I wouldn't be too surprised if Carver did wind up hurting Clementine since he'd likely feel he had the right to do so - someone attempting to use the radio and a new individual as well - if Clementine saved Alvin and got slapped by Carver earlier he already hurt Clementine so tha… [view original content]
I feel like they definitely could've done more with Sarah and Carver, I'm disappointed that we didn't get a chance to get peoples' takes on certain events that transpired either - Season One had this which in my opinion added allot to the characters.
Currently, I feel as though Sarah never had much of an ark, she was portrayed as weak and a liability and died in what seems like a tragedy. I was hoping that they show her develop into a stronger character, as I felt that's what the first 2 episodes alluded to - I really want to see the original script now xD
I'm a little more iffy about the situation with Sarah, at least if she was Clementine's friend, in that scenario I'd feel that Sarah would a… moret least mention Carver hurting her directly in some way.
That scene is a perfect example of yet another wasted opportunity in an already bare bones episode, if I'm being honest. I talked about this somewhere else before, but as I found out by rewatching the cutscenes, Carver apparently had plans for Sarah as well as Clementine: after he murders Reggie(over some f@ckin berries, no less), he explains that weakness (and incompetence in doing what they're asked to) won't be tolerated. Notably, he used looks at Sarah when saying this, as if using Reggie's murder to intimidate Sarah specifically (which he even non-verbally gets across to Clementine). After sternly sending Clementine off for her next assignment with Bonnie, he is seen walking and putting a hand on Sarah's shoulder while tilting his head … [view original content]
They had massive disagreements in season one...however having her in season two instead of Jane would have been more interesting and believable than the Jane/Kenny fight.
I feel like they definitely could've done more with Sarah and Carver
They could've done more with a lot of characters, concepts, themes, and things in general.
Currently, I feel as though Sarah never had much of an ark,
The messed up thing about that is that she consistently seemed like she was being set up for something, even as late as saving her from the trailer, but then the cop out button was finally pressed and it shows.
she was portrayed as weak and a liability and died in what seems like a tragedy.
A tragedy of writing! But yeah, I brought up in the Thoughts on Writing thread how black and white things got as the story went on and Sarah has got to be one of the oddest victims of it. The fact that Arvo is introduced around the same time she had her break down makes this and the numerous missed opportunities even more apparent.
I was hoping that they show her develop into a stronger character, as I felt that's what the first 2 episodes alluded to - I really want to see the original script now xD
Tell me about it. She was easily the most interesting Cabin Group member to me because she was actually established with a story to tell and somewhere to go. The fact that she seemed to be set up to be this Season's Kenny in hindsight certainly helps.
I feel like they definitely could've done more with Sarah and Carver, I'm disappointed that we didn't get a chance to get peoples' takes on … morecertain events that transpired either - Season One had this which in my opinion added allot to the characters.
Currently, I feel as though Sarah never had much of an ark, she was portrayed as weak and a liability and died in what seems like a tragedy. I was hoping that they show her develop into a stronger character, as I felt that's what the first 2 episodes alluded to - I really want to see the original script now xD
Jane was well written, but she was not as original of a character as Kenny. Kenny was more human to me, while Jane never really broke out of her stereotype. Still an good character though for the amount of time we spent with her.
Jane was well written, but she was not as original of a character as Kenny. Kenny was more human to me, while Jane never really broke out of her stereotype. Still an good character though for the amount of time we spent with her.
Kenny was more human to me, while Jane never really broke out of her stereotype.
[Oh the irony considering my last Unpopular Opinion post.] Which stereotype?
Aw, okay. Only more of trope, less of a stereotype. Though she didn't really save the day so much as got a few cool moments: Jaime, Sarah, Kenny, and AJ would have differing agreements with that.
Also, I recently noted that Kenny was among the characters who could be called a stereotype: a redneck in his case.
What is a trope? Well, in Kenny's case it wasn't such a defining part of his character. He isn't chewing tobacco and "aww shucks" all the time. He has more layers than that.
Aw, okay. Only more of trope, less of a stereotype. Though she didn't really save the day so much as got a few cool moments: Jaime, Sarah, K… moreenny, and AJ would have differing agreements with that.
Also, I recently noted that Kenny was among the characters who could be called a stereotype: a redneck in his case.
What is a trope? Well, in Kenny's case it wasn't such a defining part of his character. He isn't chewing tobacco and "aww shucks" all the time. He has more layers than that.
A trope is basically kind of like a type of character development or character fate that is used commonly in storytelling.
Such as - The Underdog Trope, No Plot Armor Trope, Secret Power Trope etc.
It's described as when a character doesn't get harmed or die in a situation they should've faced the consequences of being in - example; Clementine in Season 2 gets shot by Arvo but gets up later showing little trouble coping with her injury until later on when the decision between Kenny and Jane have to be made - her wounds open up conveniently when the plot needs it.
Another example - a building is about to blow up and the hero has 10 seconds to escape from it, they do it successfully but the blast radius is just behind them and they don't suffer any kind of damage(often at most it's just torn clothing).
Doesn't change the fact that he is a pickup truck drivin, mullet rockin, horseshoe mustacheo'd, alcoholic, racially insensitive, Florida-based(is that really a redneck thing?), politic hatin, vernacularly insecure, steroetypin, hot-tempered, and violent redneck. *
....
But, yeah, the fact he was a family man first is evidence of that. In fact, I can't think of a redneck that was "positively" portrayed before.
.* Note: No offense to any rednecks in this community.
What is a trope? Well, in Kenny's case it wasn't such a defining part of his character. He isn't chewing tobacco and "aww shucks" all the time. He has more layers than that.
It's described as when a character doesn't get harmed or die in a situation they should've faced the consequences of being in - example; Cle… morementine in Season 2 gets shot by Arvo but gets up later showing little trouble coping with her injury until later on when the decision between Kenny and Jane have to be made - her wounds open up conveniently when the plot needs it.
Another example - a building is about to blow up and the hero has 10 seconds to escape from it, they do it successfully but the blast radius is just behind them and they don't suffer any kind of damage(often at most it's just torn clothing).
It is basically making characters immune xD
Sarah dies if she isn't taught how to defend herself
Sarah is the one to shoot Natasha and later on, Arvo shoots and kills Sarah and Clementine can try to gun Arvo, Mike and determinantly Bonnie down after it happens.
Maybe even something like:
* Nick dies trying to save AJ
* Sarah dies if she isn't taught how to defend herself
* Sarah is the one to… more shoot Natasha and later on, Arvo shoots and kills Sarah and Clementine can try to gun Arvo, Mike and determinantly Bonnie down after it happens.
I completely agree. The history between the 2 would have totally made sense but sadly unrealistic that both characters ended up running into each other and Clem as well. I would have loved to have seen that instead though
They had massive disagreements in season one...however having her in season two instead of Jane would have been more interesting and believable than the Jane/Kenny fight.
or I would have done something else like bring Lilly in Jane's place.
They already fought in Season One, making them fight again in Season Two would've been redundant and unoriginal in my opinion.
Yeah I agree, the writers did a great job on this complex character. Her intro had me hooked. Just a deep stare into Clementine's soul. I was like: Yeah, who's that, and how do I get her on my crew.
Comments
But in the end. She didn't. And again, Lee is just an fucking example, nothing else.
Even if that is true, you can't see anything out in the blizzard, they could've lost him, or something could have happened when he was left alone.
And don't understand me wrong, I like Jane, I don't hate her, but some Jane fans think she's all good things, Kenny also did many stupid things that made me mad, for example Arvo, he didn't had the right to beat the kid almost to death, there is where I agreed with Jane and not for first time. I'm just saying no-one is perfect.
I did not agree with her actions at all in my comment, what she did was obviously dumb. I just don't think she'd leave the kid in the car.
This made me laugh way harder than it should have.
Placing a newborn baby inside a car to protect it from a harsh blizzard to prevent him from suffocating or freezing to death isn't what I would consider making it clear that she didn't like AJ.
It would have been so much easier for Jane to simply toss the baby in a snow pile or in the path of a walker, and yet she refused to do either of those thing once she knew no-one was around to watch her carry out her plan.
She made sure the baby was going to be alive and breathing, even if it means carrying out her ridiculous plan with provoking Kenny enough to prove a point to Clementine. If she truly disliked AJ, then it makes no sense for the baby to continue being alive once he was in Jane's hands, and she was alone for a good minute or two to do whatever she wanted with him.
You know what, it took me this long to realize this is actually one of those narrow-topic threads that I'm so finicky about creating. Granted, I'd say Jane probably deserves one half as much as Kenny does, so I guess it's okay.
Honestly, considering how successful this thread seems to be, maybe I might consider moving forward with an idea of my own...
2. Technically, he did. Also, its not like he couldn't have taken it further, because he quite obviously had an opportunity where he could, its just that we never follow up on that situation from Sarah's perspective.
Because she couldn't, Jane explained her story - she dragged Jaime around six states but no matter what she did, her sister didn't want to live in a post-apocalyptic world. One day, when they were getting swarmed and Jane was unable to throw her sister to safety without risking killing her, she made the tough decision(which still emotionally impacts her) to leave Jaime behind - which is what she wanted. If anything, one could argue that Jane forcing her sister to live in a world she clearly didn't want to live in is worse than giving her what she wanted and technically, since Jane never looked back or mentioned any screaming, it's possible that Jaime might actually be alive, it may be unlikely but it's possible - I mean, Glenn survived and made it to that dumpster.
More dangerous things would've happened to AJ in a blizzard than in a car but of course, TTG's writing seems to have made that baby cold-resistant xD The Walking Dead? I feel like The Super Humans might fit.
What's wrong with that? There are a heck of allot of Kenny fans that believe he's all good things as well. There's nothing wrong with liking a character and having the personal opinion that they were right in all or most situations but if you argue that point, of course you have to prepare for opposing opinions.
At least we're in agreement about Kenny's treatment of Arvo.
Maybe, depends on how they would've gone about presenting the situation though, I'm inclined to believe that Lilly would've eventually forgiven Kenny and they never really hated one another, even after Larry was killed.
The only reason I don't think it would've been that great is because two characters from Season One whose fates we did not learn both return in Season Two and restart their bickering? I feel like their arguments would've taken center stage again and I very much prefer that it's between at least one new character now, although I hope Season Three doesn't repeat the 'choose whose side you're on' decision again, at least not in the spotlight. Just my personal opinion though.
Actually I believe that Jane was warming up to AJ:
Oh, no worries!
I believe it would've been a correct writing decision if the conflict of Season Two had relied on Jane, Carlos and Bonnie. All three had relationships of their own with William Carver as well, so that would've been interesting; they just would've had to make the three more relatable and controversial.
Ah, but then we got this.
I'd think that the main goal will be to control the situation with the antagonists with the cow-branders.
Could she? From what I remember, Clementine herself was having trouble sneaking out of the walker horde until Jane showed up.
That's selfless - she thinks of the safety of the people she cares the most about and with her survivalist mentality she's probably grown accustom to watching out for 'liabilities' - it still doesn't change the fact that she's willing to go against her mind state and ideologies just to give a stranger a chance. I don't like that Jane didn't want to save Sarah at first but the fact that she does so long as Clementine is persistent and risks her life in doing so is good enough for me.
Jane chooses to save Sarah herself if Clementine stays silent regardless of past decisions - I'm not sure if there were even allot of causes and consequences in Season Two to be honest.
And actually, I can say that it was 90% for Clementine because Jane herself said that.
Okay. She said probably 90%, even then I doubt Jane knew herself precisely how much of the reason was for Clementine but I wouldn't doubt it and it still emphasizes her selflessness.
Jane was the only who contributed a logical way to maneuver through the walker horde - her addition was vital for their escape plan to succeed and not only that, she's also the one that prevents Troy from following or hurting anyone in the group.
True, that was her intent but she's still the only other group member that tries to do something.
More than anyone else ever did. Who else gave Clementine the time to teach her something that would help her survive? Jane is the only one, also Christa, that at least tries to teach Clementine something - I think Kenny could've tried to teach Clementine how to fix vehicles.
I didn't mean anything of those 3 examples I gave, I just mentioned Kenny in the same way you mentioned Jane.
Jane did the most - being the last one to enter the room after killing several Walkers - I don't deny that Clementine and Luke played roles, all three of them did good.
Except:
The point is she does something that is useful, saying why not doesn't change the effectiveness of her action.
Considering that Walkers were surrounding the place, she already made a potential risk. Adding a personal believe to what would've happened if the character had foresight doesn't really change anything, that's like saying I think Kenny would've killed Ben if he had known he was stealing medicine earlier.
It's a nail file...
The point is, Jane tries to get Clementine to look out for Kenny as she is the only person he's got at this point.
Except I doubt that Jane would've chased Arvo and risked falling into the frozen lake herself and Kenny, being heavier than Jane, may have broken the ice and caused both of them to drown. There are likely differences if roles are changed, despite popular belief.
If she wasn't there and Clementine and Bonnie fell into the lake, they wouldn't have a reason to as both of them would've drowned. Remember that Kenny was too busy beating up Arvo and then he decided to work on the truck, Mike was more focused on Arvo's well-being than that of Clementine or Bonnie's.
Except that he doesn't know if it even exists or not, all he's heard is rumors. Even after discovering Wellington, we don't even know how dangerous the place is - the only indication of the types of people there being Edith and their form of hospitality towards survivors they turn away. They could've went back to Howe's, re-fortified the place making it safe from walkers, it would've been warm there as well and they likely would've had clothes. Jane didn't bring up Howe's for her own survival, she was thinking of the well-fare of AJ and likely Clementine.
Actually, she's shown several times that she at least somewhat cares about AJ - willing to look after him, not killing him and leaving him in a safer place(the car) rather than keeping him out in the blizzard where he's most likely to die, thinking about AJ's well-being as she mentions Howe's having baby formula. Did Jane say that line before or after Rebecca gave birth?
Yes really, look it up. She may have wanted them to believe but it's clear that her ideologies were conflicting or changing at the point forward, which is why she chooses to give them a chance if Clementine doesn't - if she was the same person as she was before, then she may have turned them away.
I really think, being an advent Kenny hater, that a lot of people would've gladly chosen a horned alien over Kenny by the end of season 2.
That scene is a perfect example of yet another wasted opportunity in an already bare bones episode, if I'm being honest. I talked about this somewhere else before, but as I found out by rewatching the cutscenes, Carver apparently had plans for Sarah as well as Clementine: after he murders Reggie(over some f@ckin berries, no less), he explains that weakness (and incompetence in doing what they're asked to) won't be tolerated. Notably, he used looks at Sarah when saying this, as if using Reggie's murder to intimidate Sarah specifically (which he even non-verbally gets across to Clementine). After sternly sending Clementine off for her next assignment with Bonnie, he is seen walking and putting a hand on Sarah's shoulder while tilting his head in that sort of "Just between you and me" type of way. Nothing ever directly comes of this, though.
Another problem that most of the characters had that affected Sarah as well was that her feelings about a particular subject or situation aren't really focused on or given a opportunity to be talked about on the side. This includes certain major events from her perspective involving Nick, Reggie, Kenny, Sarita, and Jane.
On a side note, its also where some of my initial ideas about Sarah's character arc was officially validated....
I feel like they definitely could've done more with Sarah and Carver, I'm disappointed that we didn't get a chance to get peoples' takes on certain events that transpired either - Season One had this which in my opinion added allot to the characters.
Currently, I feel as though Sarah never had much of an ark, she was portrayed as weak and a liability and died in what seems like a tragedy. I was hoping that they show her develop into a stronger character, as I felt that's what the first 2 episodes alluded to - I really want to see the original script now xD
I don't think it would be more believable, since both Kenny and Lilly would have to unrealistically pop into the season.
That's an unfair comparison.
Everybody would pick a horned alien over anybody else! They're awesome!
They could've done more with a lot of characters, concepts, themes, and things in general.
The messed up thing about that is that she consistently seemed like she was being set up for something, even as late as saving her from the trailer, but then the cop out button was finally pressed and it shows.
A tragedy of writing! But yeah, I brought up in the Thoughts on Writing thread how black and white things got as the story went on and Sarah has got to be one of the oddest victims of it. The fact that Arvo is introduced around the same time she had her break down makes this and the numerous missed opportunities even more apparent.
Tell me about it. She was easily the most interesting Cabin Group member to me because she was actually established with a story to tell and somewhere to go. The fact that she seemed to be set up to be this Season's Kenny in hindsight certainly helps.
What about horny aliens?
Now you're basically talking about Alien from the smash hit Spring Breakers.
Depends on who the Alien is being horny TO. If it's Kenny? Eh, fifty fifty, do whatever ya' please. To Clementine? She's dead.
Jane was well written, but she was not as original of a character as Kenny. Kenny was more human to me, while Jane never really broke out of her stereotype. Still an good character though for the amount of time we spent with her.
If the Wellington rumor was widely known...it is very believable that people would run into each other along the path.
[Oh the irony considering my last Unpopular Opinion post.] Which stereotype?
A jaded loner who eventually warms up to someone and/or saves the day is a classic character type.
Aw, okay. Only more of trope, less of a stereotype. Though she didn't really save the day so much as got a few cool moments: Jaime, Sarah, Kenny, and AJ would have differing agreements with that.
Also, I recently noted that Kenny was among the characters who could be called a stereotype: a redneck in his case.
What is a trope? Well, in Kenny's case it wasn't such a defining part of his character. He isn't chewing tobacco and "aww shucks" all the time. He has more layers than that.
A trope is basically kind of like a type of character development or character fate that is used commonly in storytelling.
Such as - The Underdog Trope, No Plot Armor Trope, Secret Power Trope etc.
Thank you
), though I have to ask -what is plot amour?
It's described as when a character doesn't get harmed or die in a situation they should've faced the consequences of being in - example; Clementine in Season 2 gets shot by Arvo but gets up later showing little trouble coping with her injury until later on when the decision between Kenny and Jane have to be made - her wounds open up conveniently when the plot needs it.
Another example - a building is about to blow up and the hero has 10 seconds to escape from it, they do it successfully but the blast radius is just behind them and they don't suffer any kind of damage(often at most it's just torn clothing).
It is basically making characters immune xD
Doesn't change the fact that he is a pickup truck drivin, mullet rockin, horseshoe mustacheo'd, alcoholic, racially insensitive, Florida-based(is that really a redneck thing?), politic hatin, vernacularly insecure, steroetypin, hot-tempered, and violent redneck. *
....
But, yeah, the fact he was a family man first is evidence of that. In fact, I can't think of a redneck that was "positively" portrayed before.
.* Note: No offense to any rednecks in this community.
So like Carver's group and Arvo's group opening fire on each other at close range with only casualties being on the "enemy" side?
Basically xD well there were casualties - Luke and Mike getting hit but only Luke seems to have suffered from their injury.
Like I and so many others have, Sarah and maybe Nick should've died in that scene.
Maybe even something like:
You know what, I had most of those thoughts here except for the fact that Sarah shoots Rebecca and is gunned down while trying to run away with AJ.
Twd S2 story somehow forced us to hate Kenny, but that doesn't mean that he deserves to got killed by someone he cared for stupid trick of Jane.
Question is - would Lilly be inclined to believe Wellington is real?
@kennyshouladiedins1
I completely agree. The history between the 2 would have totally made sense but sadly unrealistic that both characters ended up running into each other and Clem as well. I would have loved to have seen that instead though
Except that you could argue that their fighting escalated to killing each other in season 2 compared to just arguing in Season 1
Yeah I agree, the writers did a great job on this complex character. Her intro had me hooked. Just a deep stare into Clementine's soul. I was like: Yeah, who's that, and how do I get her on my crew.