At what point did Jane give up on Kenny?
Okay so in episode 3, Jane and Kenny were completely fine and dandy with no issues between them. Even though they didn't know each other, there were no issues. Then episode 4 comes along and Jane shows concerns for Kenny as liability but nothing too serious or a real dislike for him. Then in episode 5, Jane says that they have to try and help Kenny. When Jane and Clem are walking after the Russian incident, she says that Kenny is in a dark place and that Clem is the only one who can save him. She even insists that they help Kenny.
Then Jane talks to Kenny behind the scenes while Clem is helping Luke so obviously they must have been able to stand each other. They even go scout the first place Arvo took them to together. Remember Jane says she'll go with Kenny to look at the place. So Obviously they must of been okay with each other then.
I really don't know why the writing is so over the place because it seems like Jane wants to help Kenny at some points and then other points she completely dislikes him. I know that after Luke died their relationship went down hill but I don't really know the exact pinpoint at which Jane completely gives up on Kenny. It's like at first Jane says she wants to help Kenny and then she says he's a liability and then the next day she talks with Kenny and works together with him and then next she hates him again and so on......
I'm really trying to figure out the exact moment or scene she just gave up and had enough because I feel like the fight just came out of no where. To me it seemed like Jane really wanted to help Kenny and Kenny didn't really want the help. Like at what moment did Kenny make Jane snap?
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If you want an honest answer, I'd say it's when they're all in the car and start arguing. I think that's the point where Jane finally gave up on trying to understand/get through to Kenny. But it was something that was building the entirety of episode 5; at first, she's wary of him, telling Clementine that they need to keep an eye on him. Later on, she starts to see him unravel more, and starts actively warning Clementine of him. By the time the whole argument outside of the house happens, she's just about at the end of her rope, only holding out a slight bit of hope for him. But it's the argument in the car after Clem gets shot that's the final straw.
I think it was right after Luke's death when Kenny was about to beat Arvo to death that stuff started to go downhill. When she comes back she is visibly pissed and upset at him ('There is another just like this one. He WASN'T lying' 'How is beating a kid to death's gonna help ANYONE?!').
After Clem helps Kenny with the truck she talks to Jane about Kenny.
(Talking about Kenny (while he is beating the fricking truck, wtf lmao))
"I've seen that look before."
"I've seen it too. A few times."
"Then you know what's about to happen. I know Kenny's a nice guy, Clem... I bet Carver was a nice guy too, once... Probably had a nice job, a nice, pretty wife. Then all this happened and one day he caved some kid's face in and realised he could sleep at night."
"We can still make this work."
"All I'm saying is, start thinking about what happens if you're wrong."
This is the first time Jane sugests that Kenny may be too far gone. Keywords: sugests and may!
After Kenny's trantum about going to find the Garden of Eden or something and he starting screaming at the whole group, Jane is clearly upset with Kenny's tunneled vision about things, still she sticks with him even after Mike and Bonnie leave. Even after seeing how damaging he can be to a group.
Finally, after their catfight in the truck Jane finally says "That fucking asshole. GOD. Ugh, I can't do this anymore. I'm serious Clem. I tried but i just can't". This is probably the moment where she really gives up, and let me tell you, that lasted long! I would've given up ages ago.
In the car. That's when it all really started kicking off. Technically Kenny vs Jane worked because of their contrasting personalities and their different philosphy on life but it could have definitely been built up better. Disagreement on where to go also had a pretty big part in Jane snapping.
Oops, meant to reply to the OP lol.
I think she started to lose hope for him after he makes it clear he doesn't care what she, Bonnie, Mike, and even Clem want. He begins to assume a dictatorial position once he repairs the pickup truck. His man-handling of Arvo did little to improve Jane's opinion of him either. I disagree about the argument Kenny and Jane had since Jane provoked him and did not let up.
Garden of Edith*
I think what made her snap was the moment Kenny called her 'Nothing' - he hit Jane where it hurt there. At the beginning of Episode 5, Jane tries to convince Clementine to look out for Kenny, she then becomes cautioned of Kenny's aggressive behavior and tries to warn Clementine and by the time Clementine wakes up in the car, Jane seemed to only be able to tolerate Kenny at that point until he hit her home by calling her 'Nothing' - that she doesn't care about anyone and no one cares about her.
She gave up on him before she even met him lol. She doesn't really care about other people especially those she sees as a liability
I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions of any characters that are presented as a 'lone wolf'.
Correction: She doesn't really care about other people especially those she sees as a liability unless they do something for her. Hence Clementine and to a lesser degree Luke.
Definitely treading carefully here in order to avoid some petty Jame argument, but I feel like with her it's pretty clear that she doesn't value people unless as @DabigRG noted they do something for her or she gets something out of the relationship.
She didn't care for the group as a whole before and she saw Kenny as a loud, volatile, liability. Even though she did save him.
Ehhh, sorry but I can't agree with that sentiment.
If Jane truly only cared for people who do something for her, then why does she:
That's just one example.
Jane and Kenny's relationship is so artificial and forced, I tend to just subscribe to the belief that during the limp-dicked Mexican standoff that was an insult to the players, Kenny lost a large portion of cognitive brain functions due to internal hemorrhaging in his brain because of his worsening condition what with the eye and all. And Jane, sprinting back toward the ensuing gunfire to help must've tripped over a pebble and hit her head causing a fracture in her skull, forever transforming her into an idiot that stabs people in their neck and then slowly steps back as if to evoke shock that when you do plunge a knife into someone's trachea from behind, that "dur, lots of blood come out and dey choke and gasp, durr."
God, everyone sucked in No Going Back.
Kenny was willing to put himself out to help others, and to see to there wellbeing all the way to the end.
Kenny helped Lee and Mark carry Ben's wounded friend/teacher back to the motel, and expressed outrage when Larry said they should've left him behind.
If Kenny and Lee were friends, Kenny saves Lee back at the drugstore when Lee gets pinned under a fallen door, and Kenny will jump at the chance to go help him look for Clementine.
If Ben falls in the alley, despite their turbulent history, Kenny will go down and attempt to save him, and when unable to do that, he put Ben out of his misery.
And look how far he went to get Clementine and the baby to Wellington.
Jane was more of a survivalist. She might help someone to a point, but when her ass was on the line, she was going to run off to save herself.
Look at what happened when Clementine crashed the truck in the snowstorm, Jane ran off with AJ, and left Clementine who was trapped in the truck.
Now granted Jane did teach Clementine some survival skills, but also deserted her and the group when they could have used her.
You do realize that there were walkers chasing both Jane and AJ away from Clementine? There wasn't any time for Jane to help Clementine while trying to carry a baby in her arms, all while trying to endure a blizzard that was reducing both temperature and visibility.
She didn't just run off with AJ and willingly leave Clementine in the truck.
She just cared about herself mostly, and lately cared about clem, she thought Kenny could be harmful( that is wrong though) for clem and she loved clem like his sister very much, so she did that stupid trick to get over Kenny.
The car sequence is obviously the tipping point. I mean Kenny literally calls Jane nothing which to me is a really fucked thing to say.
This is cherry picking kenny's good actions, not to mention its in season 1, way before Jane meets Kenny
You also pretty much reverse cherry pick Janes bad actions
She isn't "what have you done for me" type of person. I like to make the argument that she is really similar to Kenny except without all the anger and is way more reasonable.
They didn't show a lot concerning her but if anyone was paying attention. You can see she came to like Luke and obviously Clem. While she felt that Rebecca's baby could be a danger to them she still helped without really being forced. In fact she does a lot of stuff without really having to go through some big argument in order to do it. Compare that to Kenny who literally had a one mission route to take and was going that way no matter what. Sure Kenny intentions may be in the right but that doesn't excuse how you treat others.
I think saying she didn't care about the group greatly misses a aspect of her character. She just doesn't want to open herself to being hurt/disappointed again. That's why she tells the tale of a lot of her group dying because they tried to save someone who ended up bitten anyway. She isn't a loner because she wants to be but is a loner because losing others is way to much for her to handle. Of course Clem reminds her of her sister to some degree. So seeing her kinda stuck in a situation that she thinks that she won't live through. Obviously, would have her make some decisions that you may question.
The lengths that can bias affect people.
Gonna say when Kenny went ape shit on Arvo. Losing Luke did something to Jane, and seeing Kenny overreact like that probably disgusted her. Especially if Kenny accidently hits Clem.
It's like wtf Kenny? I know you're hurtin' cause of Katja, I mean Sarita. But c'mon dude, there's no justifying that sequence of events. He ran after Arvo like an attack dog, not worrying about anything, except Arvo. Then when we lose Luke, he acts like he just lost his best friend in the world. I mean I'd think Jane, Bonnie, Mike, hell even Clem, would react the way Kenny did, if there was a need to. But there obviously wasn't. Luke died because of thin ice and a bum leg, not because Arvo took them to the place he said he would.
And this is one of the reasons why, when it came down to who I could "trust," I was gonna go with Kenny over Jane at first. As unlikable and unstable as he was becoming, he had a history of good deeds and selfless actions to back him up as a great heroic good decent man who had been punched by drama one too many times. Plus, Wellington or no Wellington, getting on the road to find somewhere else that's safe was the smartest thing to do at that point considering Tavia, the herd, and Arvo were still out there, potentially on the prowl.
Jane, from day one, established herself as someone who didn't concern herself with others unless it appeals to her. Mike outright states that she didn't talk to anyone until literally the moment escaping was brought to the table. And sure enough, when they got out of the building, Jane invited them to stay behind and die and stated that she didn't care about them at that point. From that point on, she mostly continued this trend by considering leaving Clementine and Rebecca behind when Rebecca lost her nerve, tactlessly asked what Rebecca was gonna do with "it"(I tell you man, it's a delicacy), repeatedly tried to get Clementine to give up on her friends, insisted that Sarah's similarity to Jaime meant that she was gonna turn into some sort of suicidal sociopath (which is ...interesting for various reasons, but still looked what happened instead), provoked Arvo by jacking him and threatening his family, distracted Luke from his job and thereby putting everyone in danger, was indirectly responsible for Sarah's death(both of them), and sneaked off after the fact, only coming back because she had gotten attached to Clementine. And what sucks about most of that despite my hopes, Jane eclipsed the likes of Lilly, Danny, Jake, Bart, Linda, Oberson, Justin, maybe Nate, Dee, and even Carver.
She told them about using walkers' blood as camouflage. She could have escaped herself and let them be eaten.
Heh, heh, who cares that Jane wanted to blow his (Arvo's) brains out the previous episode after robbing him. What a fucking monster Kenny is right?
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Just saying that if Jane wanted to blow his brains she would have. What she did was a threat. Simple words. Can you compare that to out of nowhere punches?
Technically, Clementine could've told them instead, which I do believe is an option.
Plus, Jane suggesting this trick perfectly coincides with the fact that the audio system would be drawing the walkers in a single direction, therefore making sneaking through them even easier.
Personally i feel she only helped Clem and Rebecca simply because they were there at the time and the fact she knew she was safe and covered in the guts. If the situation had been different then i'm not sure she would have. The episode prior as they were all covering themselves in guts she even says to everyone "you guys better hurry up and get to smearing if you wanna live. Or you can die here...doesn't matter to me". People forget the small details of things she said but it is what it is and doesn't give a good impression of her. I'd also refer to the later scenes with Sarah, the constant pressure of telling Clem to leave her in the trailer without even wanting to try and help her and only did so depending on Clem's determinant choice. I get why she was saying it because it reminded her of her sister and because they were in a lot of danger but i didn't agree with it knowing that there was a chance to save Sarah. Later at the deck, refusing to go down to help Sarah and calling Clem "crazy" (even though i actually agreed that it was probably suicidal to help her) but she was so quick to insist on pulling her up and it just made me feel like she didn't give a shit like she made it seem in the trailer.
And before anyone jumps on me for my opinion of her, i do not think she's completely heartless. She cares enough about Clem to help her at the lake and for her well being in general in a few scenes, and of course her apparent intentions for Clem over Kenny in the final scene. She obviously sees her as a replacement for her sister.
Yeah, I'm with @IronWoodLover on this one. She only jumped Arvo in the first place because, in her expert opinion, he was "suspicious" and the fact that he had medicine on him was exactly what she needed to appeal to Clementine. If you don't say anything when she threatens him, she turns him loose. Woman handling and threatening him beforehand was just to scare him into staying away and not coming back for retaliation.
Clem already knew this as well though
Yes I can. Those "nowhere" punches occurred after Kenny just went through another friend's death and after Arvo flipped him off. Not to mention he tried to fucking run. He should've just killed him. What he did was tame.
Yeah and what are some of things Jane says to him before hand? She says numerous things to provoke him such as "bet you're having trouble seeing a lot of things these days" when Kenny is driving or saying "fuck you. You know nothing about me". Fact is, both of them were "being children" as Clem states in the car with their arguing.
Yeah, that worked out fantastic.
So let me get this straight. You're comparing Jane mean, mean words (that must've hurt Arvo sooooo much) to Kenny's various punches on Arvo's face. Yep, those are totally the same, how could I be so blind!
Oh, you're sure about that? Did you miss the part where Kenny started punching him while he was on the ground mourning his sister? Or when Kenny pushed him just because he didn't hear his words? Dude, Arvo was so provoking. How dare he make fun of Kenny's sensible mind like that! Booooo-woooo!!!
And if you're refering to the beating in the house, did you also miss the part where Kenny was pushing Arvo because he didn't find the suplies (that actually existed) within the first 10 seconds of being in the house? I guess that 'Fuck you' was just too much for Kenny to handle! He had to beat that kid! There was no other choice!
Holy shit! Arvo tried to escape the man who had been beating him for 1 whole day!? How dare he! That's, like, so mean of Arvo. How could he do something like that???
In my opinion, we should've left him when we had the chance.
If I had any say in the matter, Arvo would be dead right after the shootout. He caused it, he put everyone's lives in danger, got his group killed, then whined about us being "not nice people" before he shot a child. Kenny was just being fucking rational. And he was right, considering what happened after. Just cause he wouldn't trust that crippled fuck after he fucked us doesn't make him an asshole.
Obviously Kenny's was worse but if i were to be picky, Jane's words could have mentally affected Arvo? Lol.
After the group were stood round Rebecca's corpse, Kenny looked very sad about her death. He then marched over to Arvo and attacked him. He was letting out his aggression because he was upset about Rebecca and because he was involved in the ambush. He didn't need to do that but he had a reason for it.
Well i don't think that was because Arvo didn't hear him but more so that he seemingly ignored Kenny when he asked him to stop when the group needed to stop. Again, unneeded perhaps but still a reason for pushing him.
Sorry to get involved anyway. Hope your good @IronWoodLover ?
A little variation in syntax doesn't hurt anyone.
Oh, they should've affected him more. Obviously Jane's words didn't affect him enough to make him never think about messing with our group again. Well, his mistake.
I actually agreed with Kenny in this scene... ish (shocker, right?). Seeing how everything turned out, associating with Arvo, the guy whose group they had just killed, was probably the most stupid thing they could've done at the moment. As I said, wish we could've just left him, way less trouble if we had. And Kenny kinda wanted that. He was the only person who seemed aware that following this guy filled with anger of our group was a terrible idea.
Still, killing (like Kenny wanted) him wasn't the answer either. Sure, it'd save us the trouble of dealing with Arvo-Kenny problems all the same, but it wasn't necessary or right.
What I don't get is that after the group made the decision of keeping Arvo and Kenny seemingly agreeing with them, what was the point of mistreating him any further? To piss everyone off? To take the kid to his edge? Had Kenny not done what he did to Arvo and maybe Mike and Bonnie wouldn't have left. Maybe Arvo would never shoot Clem. Maybe Jane would never think that Kenny was that dangerous and Kenny vs Jane would never happen. It was just not smart (or needed) to beat Arvo, even if he had all the justification to do so. Again, it's Kenny we're talking about and he isn't exactlly known for his far ahead thinking.
I'm great, thanks for asking. What about you?
I know right. Because picking on some handicapped boy who outright tells you he has a older sister is such a good idea.
"Don't try and pin this on me."
Um, actually, he said that when he first met Jane and Clementine and she threaten his sister.