Personally i feel she only helped Clem and Rebecca simply because they were there at the time and the fact she knew she was safe and covered in the guts.
Helping strangers for little reason but just because they're there at the time, I have a good feeling that wasn't the case.
"you guys better hurry up and get to smearing if you wanna live. Or you can die here...doesn't matter to me".
Clearly that isn't the case, just because she says something like that doesn't mean she won't abide by her moral judgement and completely contradict herself.
People forget the small details of things she said but it is what it is and doesn't give a good impression of her.
That's probably because her actions speak louder than her words. She might say bad things like that but she always ends up doing more good than her dialogue implies.
Later at the deck, refusing to go down to help Sarah and calling Clem "crazy" (even though i actually agreed that it was probably suicidal to help her) but she was so quick to insist on pulling her up and it just made me feel like she didn't give a shit like she made it seem in the trailer.
She was falling, remember that both were in trouble at the time and both were seeking aid. Jane being the person who has already helped Sarah didn't want to have to risk her life for her again and yet 2/3 instances - staying silent and Clementine asking her to help Sarah, she does so.
She obviously sees her as a replacement for her sister.
I think a better sister might the word, as Jaime wanted to die and Jane tried to keep her alive, that isn't the case with Clementine - she's strong, wants to survive and for a large part, can take care of herself and others pretty good.
If Jane truly only cared for people who do something for her, then why does she:
Help both Clementine and Rebecca in the walker horde, as… more far as Jane is concerned, Rebecca is a liability to her and she seems to believe that Clementine can take care of herself, neither of them really did anything to help her personally but she still saves them from possible doom.
Personally i feel she only helped Clem and Rebecca simply because they were there at the time and the fact she knew she was safe and covered in the guts. If the situation had been different then i'm not sure she would have. The episode prior as they were all covering themselves in guts she even says to everyone "you guys better hurry up and get to smearing if you wanna live. Or you can die here...doesn't matter to me". People forget the small details of things she said but it is what it is and doesn't give a good impression of her. I'd also refer to the later scenes with Sa… [view original content]
Obviously Kenny's was worse but if i were to be picky, Jane's words could have mentally affected Arvo? Lol.
I know you're probably half joking, but she did threaten him and technically his sister beforehand. The fact that that gets dropped as a "The Complainer is Wrong" moment and never really acknowledged again just made the hole deeper.
He was letting out his aggression because he was upset about Rebecca and because he was involved in the ambush. He didn't need to do that but he had a reason for it.
Okay, that I actually understood for exactly the same reason. It wasn't right, it wasn't wrong, but it's an understandable reaction and a totally Kenny moment. It's when the gun got aimed at Mike, Luke, Ar[vo] that where I had to put my foot down.
Kenny: Move out the way! He's still a threat!
Clementine: Kenny, I think you need a Snickers: this is the same dude who, in addition to being handicapped, had to defer to the orders of his brutish boss just to know how to deal with us and tried to call things off when he saw the baby--after dragging his feet actually getting back at us. Calling him a threat is like calling walkers harmless.
So let me get this straight. You're comparing Jane mean, mean words (that must've hurt Arvo sooooo much) to Kenny's various punches on Arvo'… mores face. Yep, those are totally the same, how could I be so blind!
Obviously Kenny's was worse but if i were to be picky, Jane's words could have mentally affected Arvo? Lol.
Oh, you're sure about that? Did you miss the part where Kenny started punching him while he was on the ground mourning his sister?
After the group were stood round Rebecca's corpse, Kenny looked very sad about her death. He then marched over to Arvo and attacked him. He was letting out his aggression because he was upset about Rebecca and because he was involved in the ambush. He didn't need to do that but he had a reason for it.
Or when Kenny pushed him just because he didn't hear his words?
Well i don't think that was because Arvo didn't hear him but more so that he seemingly ignored Kenny when he… [view original content]
I was thinking about this today as well, which is why I think the fight should have been between Luke and Kenny because the hated each other from the first conversation they had so it would make sense if they wanted to kill each other in episode 5. Whereas Jane and Kenny where fine with each other up until they started arguing in the car as far as I remember they didn't argue about anything before that moment. And that was only minutes before they had the fight so I don't understand why Jane suddenly wanted Kenny dead, it just doesn't make sense to me. I actually liked both characters up until Jane wanted to kill him and now I kind of dislike her. I actually think if Kenny and Jane got to know each other they would be good friends but as usual she doesn't even give him a chance like all the rest of the characters in season 2. But that's just my opinion
Obviously Kenny's was worse but if i were to be picky, Jane's words could have mentally affected Arvo? Lol.
I know you're probably h… morealf joking, but she did threaten him and technically his sister beforehand. The fact that that gets dropped as a "The Complainer is Wrong" moment and never really acknowledged again just made the hole deeper.
He was letting out his aggression because he was upset about Rebecca and because he was involved in the ambush. He didn't need to do that but he had a reason for it.
Okay, that I actually understood for exactly the same reason. It wasn't right, it wasn't wrong, but it's an understandable reaction and a totally Kenny moment. It's when the gun got aimed at Mike, Luke, Ar[vo] that where I had to put my foot down.
Kenny: Move out the way! He's still a threat!
Clementine: Kenny, I think you need a Snickers: this is the same dude who, in addition to being handicapped, had to defer to the … [view original content]
The fact that he brought the gun out at all was pushing it, as the skit was demonstrating. While definitely more slippery than you'd expect, Arvo didn't really necessitate that type of force considering his state of being after what just happened and Mike and Luke could've gotten shot again if he wasn't careful, only this time they might not be so lucky. And given what people have mentioned about Jane in that scene, neither would Kenny.
It's when the gun got aimed at Mike, Luke, Ar[vo] that where I had to put my foot down.
He aimed his gun in their direction but you know he wasn't actually threatening Mike/Luke and whoever stood in the way right? Only to Arvo
Helping strangers for little reason but just because they're there at the time, I have a good feeling that wasn't the case.
Well hold onto the good feeling prink, it's still what i think anyway.
Clearly that isn't the case, just because she says something like that doesn't mean she won't abide by her moral judgement and completely contradict herself.
So it makes it right what she said does it? Point is, it doesn't give a good impresssion of her at that point in time and i still think she didn't care a whole lot about the group. She cared about Clem and maybe started to with Luke but I don't think she cared all that much so i stand by what i said but she's not completely heartless.
That's probably because her actions speak louder than her words. She might say bad things like that but she always ends up doing more good than her dialogue implies.
As i said, it still doesn't change the fact it gave a bad impression of her which is what i'm trying to get at, and when suggesting Rebecca gets rid of the baby (even though i agreed with her of the problems a baby would cause), it still made her seem like she didn't care. But again i know she isn't heartless.
She was falling, remember that both were in trouble at the time and both were seeking aid. Jane being the person who has already helped Sarah didn't want to have to risk her life for her again and yet 2/3 instances - staying silent and Clementine asking her to help Sarah, she does so.
Yeah and i get that and i already said i even agreed that her going down to try and help Sarah was very dangerous but my point is, despite her going down to help her if you stay silent or if Clem asks her twice to do so, it's the way in which she acted about being asked to save her. The way i saw it was after her constant pressure asking Clem to leave her in the trailer, the deck collapse was like a second chance of actually helping her this time. She helps Sarah out of the trailer determinantely yes but only after Clem had convinced Sarah to leave.
Listen man, we'll never agree on anything so let's agree to disagree
Personally i feel she only helped Clem and Rebecca simply because they were there at the time and the fact she knew she was safe and covered… more in the guts.
Helping strangers for little reason but just because they're there at the time, I have a good feeling that wasn't the case.
"you guys better hurry up and get to smearing if you wanna live. Or you can die here...doesn't matter to me".
Clearly that isn't the case, just because she says something like that doesn't mean she won't abide by her moral judgement and completely contradict herself.
People forget the small details of things she said but it is what it is and doesn't give a good impression of her.
That's probably because her actions speak louder than her words. She might say bad things like that but she always ends up doing more good than her dialogue implies.
Later at the deck, refusing to go down to help Sarah and calling Clem "crazy" (even tho… [view original content]
Clearly that isn't the case, just because she says something like that doesn't mean she won't abide by her moral judgement and completely contradict herself.
That's probably because her actions speak louder than her words. She might say bad things like that but she always ends up doing more good than her dialogue implies.
The point is that Jane tends to bring the bad reactions she gets on herself and some of her actions just make things even worse on her.
She was falling, remember that both were in trouble at the time and both were seeking aid. Jane being the person who has already helped Sarah didn't want to have to risk her life for her again and yet 2/3 instances - staying silent and Clementine asking her to help Sarah, she does so.
When the hell was this?! It was Clementine who slapped Sarah and helped her to her feet in the trailer; Jane just helped lift her up.
The fact that she went on to insistently accuse Sarah of becoming this suicidal sociopath who was gonna get them killed--when that's the opposite of what ended up happening-- just dug a bigger hole.
I think a better sister might the word, as Jaime wanted to die and Jane tried to keep her alive, that isn't the case with Clementine - she's strong, wants to survive and for a large part, can take care of herself and others pretty good.
Personally i feel she only helped Clem and Rebecca simply because they were there at the time and the fact she knew she was safe and covered… more in the guts.
Helping strangers for little reason but just because they're there at the time, I have a good feeling that wasn't the case.
"you guys better hurry up and get to smearing if you wanna live. Or you can die here...doesn't matter to me".
Clearly that isn't the case, just because she says something like that doesn't mean she won't abide by her moral judgement and completely contradict herself.
People forget the small details of things she said but it is what it is and doesn't give a good impression of her.
That's probably because her actions speak louder than her words. She might say bad things like that but she always ends up doing more good than her dialogue implies.
Later at the deck, refusing to go down to help Sarah and calling Clem "crazy" (even tho… [view original content]
Jane didn't seem emotionally invested in the group at all. Only Clementine. I'm going to argue she didn't have reason to be though. She had no history with Carver's group since they ran away before she was caught. They didn't give her food or save her from walkers like they did for Clem, so Jane didn't owe them an allegiance. Jane fulfills the most obligation she had as a bystander. Sarah was almost catatonic in the trailer. If Clementine couldn't rouse her, Jane or Luke would have to carry her.
Personally i feel she only helped Clem and Rebecca simply because they were there at the time and the fact she knew she was safe and covered… more in the guts.
Helping strangers for little reason but just because they're there at the time, I have a good feeling that wasn't the case.
"you guys better hurry up and get to smearing if you wanna live. Or you can die here...doesn't matter to me".
Clearly that isn't the case, just because she says something like that doesn't mean she won't abide by her moral judgement and completely contradict herself.
People forget the small details of things she said but it is what it is and doesn't give a good impression of her.
That's probably because her actions speak louder than her words. She might say bad things like that but she always ends up doing more good than her dialogue implies.
Later at the deck, refusing to go down to help Sarah and calling Clem "crazy" (even tho… [view original content]
The fact that he brought the gun out at all was pushing it,
Well i disagree to be honest. I mean Arvo and his friends had just ambushed the group at gunpoint, i'd be pretty pissed off as well so getting the gun out wouldn't have been pushing it knowing a guy (Arvo) you couldn't trust was still alive. The fact the whole group acted calm and let their defences down just because Arvo appeared harmless is certainly something I wouldn't have done in that situation.
Mike and Luke could've gotten shot again if he wasn't careful, only this time they might not be so lucky.
Yeah granted, they could have been shot if he wasn't careful but hey, they were the ones who stood in the way of his aiming of Arvo so they actually put themselves in danger lol
The fact that he brought the gun out at all was pushing it, as the skit was demonstrating. While definitely more slippery than you'd expect,… more Arvo didn't really necessitate that type of force considering his state of being after what just happened and Mike and Luke could've gotten shot again if he wasn't careful, only this time they might not be so lucky. And given what people have mentioned about Jane in that scene, neither would Kenny.
Helping strangers for little reason but just because they're there at the time, I have a good feeling that wasn't the case.
Well hol… mored onto the good feeling prink, it's still what i think anyway.
Clearly that isn't the case, just because she says something like that doesn't mean she won't abide by her moral judgement and completely contradict herself.
So it makes it right what she said does it? Point is, it doesn't give a good impresssion of her at that point in time and i still think she didn't care a whole lot about the group. She cared about Clem and maybe started to with Luke but I don't think she cared all that much so i stand by what i said but she's not completely heartless.
That's probably because her actions speak louder than her words. She might say bad things like that but she always ends up doing more good than her dialogue implies.
As i said, it still doesn't change the fact it gave a bad impres… [view original content]
I mean Arvo and his friends had just ambushed the group at gunpoint, i'd be pretty pissed off as well so getting the gun out wouldn't have been pushing it knowing a guy (Arvo) you couldn't trust was still alive.
You gotta love the hypocritical humor going on with Kenny and Jane in that scene: both had a legitimately decent assessment of the situation as a whole, but were also being irrational douches about it. Kenny rightfully points out that the reason Buricko, Vitali, and Natasha came after them in the first place is because of Clementine and Jane robbing Arvo, but then he gives the boy a percussive noogie and draws his gun when Luke and Mike break it up because he's "still" a "threat"; Jane tries to calm Kenny down by pointing out that the presence of a whole group means that Arvo must be telling the truth about having a house with food and supplies for them to use, but then she responds to Kenny pointing out that she robbed him first with "Don't try and pin this on me."
Assholes.
The fact the whole group acted calm and let their defences down just because Arvo appeared harmless is certainly something I wouldn't have done in that situation.
Getting a hold on him and/or tying him up was indeed the best course of action at the moment.
Yeah granted, they could have been shot if he wasn't careful but hey, they were the ones who stood in the way of his aiming of Arvo so they actually put themselves in danger lol
The fact that he brought the gun out at all was pushing it,
Well i disagree to be honest. I mean Arvo and his friends had just ambus… morehed the group at gunpoint, i'd be pretty pissed off as well so getting the gun out wouldn't have been pushing it knowing a guy (Arvo) you couldn't trust was still alive. The fact the whole group acted calm and let their defences down just because Arvo appeared harmless is certainly something I wouldn't have done in that situation.
Mike and Luke could've gotten shot again if he wasn't careful, only this time they might not be so lucky.
Yeah granted, they could have been shot if he wasn't careful but hey, they were the ones who stood in the way of his aiming of Arvo so they actually put themselves in danger lol
It was Clementine who slapped Sarah and helped her to her feet in the trailer; Jane just helped lift her up.
Come on, Jane did 90% of the work there!
Jane stayed behind, risking her life, so that she'd be able to lift Clementine and Sarah to safety. Her and Luke saved both of them, though she was the one that was dangerously close to being dragged down by walkers and devoured.
Clearly that isn't the case, just because she says something like that doesn't mean she won't abide by her moral judgement and completely co… morentradict herself.
That's probably because her actions speak louder than her words. She might say bad things like that but she always ends up doing more good than her dialogue implies.
The point is that Jane tends to bring the bad reactions she gets on herself and some of her actions just make things even worse on her.
She was falling, remember that both were in trouble at the time and both were seeking aid. Jane being the person who has already helped Sarah didn't want to have to risk her life for her again and yet 2/3 instances - staying silent and Clementine asking her to help Sarah, she does so.
When the hell was this?! It was Clementine who slapped Sarah and helped her to her feet in the trailer; Jane just helped lift her up.
The fact that she went on to insistently accus… [view original content]
though she was the one that was dangerously close to being dragged down by walkers and devoured.
Well, I guess that much is true. Though there's nothing stopping her from going fuck it and having Luke pull her up anyway, considering the walkers swarm Clementine and eventually Sarah when they flood the room.
It was Clementine who slapped Sarah and helped her to her feet in the trailer; Jane just helped lift her up.
Come on, Jane did 90% o… moref the work there!
Jane stayed behind, risking her life, so that she'd be able to lift Clementine and Sarah to safety. Her and Luke saved both of them, though she was the one that was dangerously close to being dragged down by walkers and devoured.
Jane was irresponsible and unjust when she absolved herself from all responsibility of the ambush, and I was dissapointed that we did not get a chance to confront her about it—instead, we had an opportunity to guilt-trip her for leaving, when she had the right to do so.
I know right. Because picking on some handicapped boy who outright tells you he has a older sister is such a good idea.
"Don't try and pin this on me."
Yeah, I feel like her treatment of Sarah, to a lesser extent Arvo, and to even lesser extent Kenny is part of what drags her down from being in the right, but her blamelessness and consequence dodging is 1/3 of the main reason I hate her. I'm almost surprised it took me until the campfire scene to actually start outright hating her--that's how patient and forgiving I try to be!
The Sarah thing in general did nothing but taint the rest of the Season but Jane in particular with this uncomfortableness, unfortunate implications, and just a plain sum of the bad writing that really shouldn't have been there.
Jane was irresponsible and unjust when she absolved herself from all responsibility of the ambush, and I was dissapointed that we did not ge… moret a chance to confront her about it—instead, we had an opportunity to guilt-trip her for leaving, when she had the right to do so.
Stupid Telltale.
Doesn't change the fact that she constantly pressured Clem into leaving her. Only after Clem persuaded Sarah did she do the good deed. Granted though that she stayed last before getting herself up
It was Clementine who slapped Sarah and helped her to her feet in the trailer; Jane just helped lift her up.
Come on, Jane did 90% o… moref the work there!
Jane stayed behind, risking her life, so that she'd be able to lift Clementine and Sarah to safety. Her and Luke saved both of them, though she was the one that was dangerously close to being dragged down by walkers and devoured.
Yeah, I feel like her treatment of Sarah, to a lesser extent Arvo, and to even lesser extent Kenny is part of what drags her down from being… more in the right, but her blamelessness and consequence dodging is 1/3 of the main reason I hate her. I'm almost surprised it took me until the campfire scene to actually start outright hating her--that's how patient and forgiving I try to be!
The Sarah thing in general did nothing but taint the rest of the Season but Jane in particular with this uncomfortableness, unfortunate implications, and just a plain sum of the bad writing that really shouldn't have been there.
In the future, you could say something along the lines of, "I am tired of talking about this topic and I'd like to drop the discussion."
By saying "let's agree to disagree" in regard to a topic, not only you are subconsciously allowing yourself to hold an opinion without further consideration, but you are also subconsciously encouraging the other person, and anybody else reading that has an opinion on the matter, to simply accept how they think at this point in time, which inevitably leads to less and poorer discussion in the future.
I believe it's difficult for everybody to analyze how they act, because all humans enjoy being right and fathoming the idea that they could be wrong flows against that. We all are biased, but it shouldn't mean that we're resigned to live like that.
So, if you like, evaluate if what I said makes sense. This post has even helped me, the person writing, to remember that I can be wrong at any moment without noticing.
Previous experiences led Jane to believe that Sarah wouldn't be able to leave that episode of derealization behind, which is why she urged Clementine and Luke to leave. Pragmatically, as raw as it sounds, it would be better if three people survived in place of one.
When Clem was able to convince Sarah, like you said—by slapping her suddenly across the face—Jane soon changed her mind and instead focused on getting the girls to safety.
Doesn't change the fact that she constantly pressured Clem into leaving her. Only after Clem persuaded Sarah did she do the good deed. Granted though that she stayed last before getting herself up
What is the Sarah thing and how does it affect your view on Jane?
In a few words: Because she's a sociopath.
You know what, not only did I begin my membership here with a topic dedicated to talking about negative reactions to "likable" characters, with my own regarding Jane being used as an example, but Sarah in general was always intended to get an extensive topic from day one but it kept getting pushed back due to a variety of technical and life problems.
For the sake of this question, the Sarah thing I'm referring involves the circumstances surrounding her death (the "canon" one in particular) and all the problems it causes. Jane in particular has her whole presence in the group tainted for me because she was allowed to constantly mistreat a character who didn't do anything to her before getting her killed in a situation she technically caused without any real consequences or development.
Yeah but after all anything i say is hated by most people here so sometimes I really see no point in continuing like with prink so that is why i suggested agreeing to disagree because as usual the convo was going nowhere
In the future, you could say something along the lines of, "I am tired of talking about this topic and I'd like to drop the discussion."
… moreBy saying "let's agree to disagree" in regard to a topic, not only you are subconsciously allowing yourself to hold an opinion without further consideration, but you are also subconsciously encouraging the other person, and anybody else reading that has an opinion on the matter, to simply accept how they think at this point in time, which inevitably leads to less and poorer discussion in the future.
I believe it's difficult for everybody to analyze how they act, because all humans enjoy being right and fathoming the idea that they could be wrong flows against that. We all are biased, but it shouldn't mean that we're resigned to live like that.
So, if you like, evaluate if what I said makes sense. This post has even helped me, the person writing, to remember that I can be wrong at any moment without noticing.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that sentiment
Now look, defining someone as an actual sociopath is a tricky subject, but I wouldn't say Jane counts as one. She might be aloof and somewhat socially awkard, sure. She might show a few sociopathic traits as well, but not enough to classify her as a sociopath, if you ask me.
Not to run the topic off course too much, but if there's any characters in the game that could be considered genuine sociopaths, they'd probably be Danny St John, Randall from the miniseries, and possibly Carver. Maybe throw Troy in there, too. Or even Justin from 400 Days.
Why do you hate Jane?
What is the Sarah thing and how does it affect your view on Jane?
In a few words: Because she's a socio… morepath.
You know what, not only did I begin my membership here with a topic dedicated to talking about negative reactions to "likable" characters, with my own regarding Jane being used as an example, but Sarah in general was always intended to get an extensive topic from day one but it kept getting pushed back due to a variety of technical and life problems.
For the sake of this question, the Sarah thing I'm referring involves the circumstances surrounding her death (the "canon" one in particular) and all the problems it causes. Jane in particular has her whole presence in the group tainted for me because she was allowed to constantly mistreat a character who didn't do anything to her before getting her killed in a situation she technically caused without any real consequences or development.
Now look, defining someone as an actual sociopath is a tricky subject, but I wouldn't say Jane counts as one. She might be aloof and somewhat socially awkard, sure. She might show a few sociopathic traits as well, but not enough to classify her as a sociopath, if you ask me.
Yeah, I know it is. My understanding is that while a psychopath will gladly abuse others and break laws for their own amusement, a sociopath is just very difficult to reason with on a personal level and therefore is more prone to unacceptable behavior regardless of conventional standards.
Jane fits the latter and while I admit there are several moments that showcase that there was a decent human being in there at one point, she's far too jaded and bitter for anyone else's good and only cares about what appeals to her, only changing her attitude or apologizing when it's unavoidable.
Not to run the topic off course too much, but if there's any characters in the game that could be considered genuine sociopaths, they'd probably be 1.Danny St John, 2.Randall from the miniseries, and possibly 3.Carver. Maybe throw 4.Troy in there, too. Or even 5.Justin from 400 Days.
1. Agreed. Especially given the whole "You understand how this works, now!" thing in the barn.
2. Ehhh, maybe not. He seemed a little to personal and "professional" for that though; his sense of humor does make him a psychopath, though.
3. Now, that's a maybe. He felt like he was supposed to be more of a psychopath, what with the sudden bursts of anger and all, but he was so one-note and not at all subtle in Episode 3 that sociopath could work.
4. Honestly, I wouldn't call him either. Maybe its an example of what I can tolerate but he seemed more like a lazy bully who was given power by a tyrant he's kinda afraid of and is obviously trying to impress. Also, something about the way he talked to Jane before his death gave me the vibe that he does have some form of empathy and compassion, its just he's so used to being a dumb hick who doesn't mind beating women, children, and women-children to show that side for very long. Heh, I guess you call his place next to Carver and Jane a case of "Eviler than thou."
5. Oh look, the other entitled asshole I legitimately hate. Yeah, aside from maybe some vaguely possible very deep hidden depths, he definitely fits. Asshole.
Because she's a sociopath
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that sentiment
Now look, defining someone as an actual … moresociopath is a tricky subject, but I wouldn't say Jane counts as one. She might be aloof and somewhat socially awkard, sure. She might show a few sociopathic traits as well, but not enough to classify her as a sociopath, if you ask me.
Not to run the topic off course too much, but if there's any characters in the game that could be considered genuine sociopaths, they'd probably be Danny St John, Randall from the miniseries, and possibly Carver. Maybe throw Troy in there, too. Or even Justin from 400 Days.
This isn't directed at you, but your comment got me thinking about a certain misconception a lot of people tend to have toward people with a secluded mentality.
Some people feel as though Jane is an intrepid survivor simply because she has no desire to chain up with a group and act as though that group, no matter how morally deficient, is an extension of some idealistic representation of a "family." When the reality is something the game never tried to even ponder on, that maybe, just maybe seclusion is a more understandable position fundamentally then wrangled in a group of people that hold you back in the long run from surviving.
It kind of hit me as an epiphany, but I think that the game denying that notion time and time again as a bitterly fueled selfish indignation was a big reason as to why I despise No Going Back's thematic tone. There's so much talk about sticking close to people you're "comfortable" with, but what about the few players who have been trying to break away from the group since day 1? I'm one the few people who knew exactly what Luke was going for when he asked what the most important thing is yet refused to acknowledge his point because unlike most, the romanticization of being with a group as a submissive form of acceptance lacks any gravitas when the game shows that group being ripped asunder.
I'm sure this'll be my next topic cause although I can barely keep my eyes open right now, I still have a lot to go on about. This is just something I pondered on and now finally realized a big reason as to my hatred concerning the tonal shift in No Going Back.
Yeah but after all anything i say is hated by most people here so sometimes
Its not, You just have your own outlook on things, its fine I dont really agree with a lot of what you post but thats okay. However you cant expect some people to not challenge the way you think if they disagree, especially ona forum for discussion.
However I dont get this guy telling you not to say "agree to disagree" because thats just stupid, people can disagree on something particularly on a game based about choice. Plus I will admit people really gang up on others here if your opinion isnt the "correct" one, so I dont blame you for trying to end the conversation when it starts going in circles.
Yeah but after all anything i say is hated by most people here so sometimes I really see no point in continuing like with prink so that is why i suggested agreeing to disagree because as usual the convo was going nowhere
If I had been in that position, I would be far more offended if somebody attacked the very essence of who I am instead of a visible wound that I recently acquired.
It's why terminology like "faggot" and the "n" word are so hurtful. On the inside, it makes people question whether a central part of their identity, such as sexual orientation or race, is inherently wrong, incorrect and abhorrent—rationally, we know this is false. A joke about wound of yours does not attack the essence of who you are, especially if you were produced that wound few days ago.
I mean Kenny literally calls Jane nothing which to me is a really fucked thing to say.
Yeah and what are some of things Jane says to… more him before hand? She says numerous things to provoke him such as "bet you're having trouble seeing a lot of things these days" when Kenny is driving or saying "fuck you. You know nothing about me". Fact is, both of them were "being children" as Clem states in the car with their arguing.
Thanks. Honestly though a lot of the time i do feel ganged up on because there are a lot more people that either don't like me or my posts and when i post something they don't like, naturally they will disagree which is fine but it just bothers me when said people get several likes on their comment but nothing on mine which again shows how much people obviously think i'm a shit person or something. Just how i do feel these days. The forums have changed a lot since 2013
Yeah but after all anything i say is hated by most people here so sometimes
Its not, You just have your own outlook on things, its f… moreine I dont really agree with a lot of what you post but thats okay. However you cant expect some people to not challenge the way you think if they disagree, especially ona forum for discussion.
However I dont get this guy telling you not to say "agree to disagree" because thats just stupid, people can disagree on something particularly on a game based about choice. Plus I will admit people really gang up on others here if your opinion isnt the "correct" one, so I dont blame you for trying to end the conversation when it starts going in circles.
Sociopath, psychopath... tomato, tomahto, if you ask me. They accomplish the same basic thing; someone with a diminished capacity for, or outright absence of empathy. The difference between the two is more or less semantics. They're pretty much accepted as interchangeable terms for a lot of people from what I've seen.
And Randall definitely fits the bill, I think. I'd argue against him being 'professional'. His actions feel spontaneous and impulsive. He's quick to violence, even in situations that don't exactly call for it (beating up Michonne and Greg, which even Norma calls him out on). He tries to hunt Michonne down for the entirety of episode 2 against better judgement (and without telling Norma), getting a bunch of his people killed in the process. Then he gets himself captured, tortured and potentially killed, and if you kept him alive and made the trade, he immediately attempts to kill Michonne, leading to his death. Not to mention how ruthless he seems to be against anyone that opposes him; man, woman, child... he doesn't care. If you wronged him, or just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, he has no qualms about taking you out without a second thought. He killed John, a guy he didn't even know whatsoever, for no reason other than that he was in his line of sight. Whatever regard for human life he has, it doesn't seem like very much.
As for the others... yeah, I'm on the fence about Troy and Carver. Troy just seems like a dick in general. Carver's harder to pin down, but the possibility's there.
Justin, however, almost certainly is. He admits he's a good liar, shows no remorse, guilt or concern over the people he conned, faked guilt and remorse to try and get a reduced sentence (cried on the stand), actively brags about his crimes... he definitely shows signs.
Now look, defining someone as an actual sociopath is a tricky subject, but I wouldn't say Jane counts as one. She might be aloof and somewha… moret socially awkard, sure. She might show a few sociopathic traits as well, but not enough to classify her as a sociopath, if you ask me.
Yeah, I know it is. My understanding is that while a psychopath will gladly abuse others and break laws for their own amusement, a sociopath is just very difficult to reason with on a personal level and therefore is more prone to unacceptable behavior regardless of conventional standards.
Jane fits the latter and while I admit there are several moments that showcase that there was a decent human being in there at one point, she's far too jaded and bitter for anyone else's good and only cares about what appeals to her, only changing her attitude or apologizing when it's unavoidable.
Not to run the topic off course too much, but if there's any characters i… [view original content]
You bring up the eye and NOT her targeting Katjaa, Duck, and Sarita? Seriously, I thought Kenny was about to start cryin’ behind the wheel at one point. Now THAT was going too far!
I mean Kenny literally calls Jane nothing which to me is a really fucked thing to say.
Yeah and what are some of things Jane says to… more him before hand? She says numerous things to provoke him such as "bet you're having trouble seeing a lot of things these days" when Kenny is driving or saying "fuck you. You know nothing about me". Fact is, both of them were "being children" as Clem states in the car with their arguing.
Sociopath, psychopath... tomato, tomahto, if you ask me. They accomplish the same basic thing; someone with a diminished capacity for, or outright absence of empathy. The difference between the two is more or less semantics. They're pretty much accepted as interchangeable terms for a lot of people from what I've seen.
Yeah, that is relatively accurate. Its just that once I learned they were two different words, I tried to make a distinction for the sake of self-education.
And Randall definitely fits the bill, I think.
Huh. When you put it like that, yeah, he does fit. And even his "professionalism" is relatively freeform based on his opinion of the situation, with his "coaching" of Zachary being the main example.
As for the others... yeah, I'm on the fence about Troy and Carver. Troy just seems like a dick in general. Carver's harder to pin down, but the possibility's there.
Justin, however, almost certainly is. He admits he's a good liar, shows no remorse, guilt or concern over the people he conned, faked guilt and remorse to try and get a reduced sentence (cried on the stand), actively brags about his crimes... he definitely shows signs.
Sociopath, psychopath... tomato, tomahto, if you ask me. They accomplish the same basic thing; someone with a diminished capacity for, or ou… moretright absence of empathy. The difference between the two is more or less semantics. They're pretty much accepted as interchangeable terms for a lot of people from what I've seen.
And Randall definitely fits the bill, I think. I'd argue against him being 'professional'. His actions feel spontaneous and impulsive. He's quick to violence, even in situations that don't exactly call for it (beating up Michonne and Greg, which even Norma calls him out on). He tries to hunt Michonne down for the entirety of episode 2 against better judgement (and without telling Norma), getting a bunch of his people killed in the process. Then he gets himself captured, tortured and potentially killed, and if you kept him alive and made the trade, he immediately attempts to kill Michonne, leading to his death. Not to mention … [view original content]
Clementine: "Guys please stop."
Jane: "Shut up, we're too busy hating each other because reasons!"
Kenny: " Yeah! Go find another group to destroy or whatever it is you do these days."
I swear that if Kenny actually said that, I would totally lose my shit and laugh for like, 10 minutes straight!
I mean, really. Kenny, THE Kenny calling someone out for 'breaking groups' after hours ago 3 member of our group ran away scared shitless of him? I mean, I know Kenny can be an hypocrite at times, but DAMN! That'd be a whole new level.
I swear that if Kenny actually said that, I would totally lose my shit and laugh for like, 10 minutes straight!
I mean, really. Kenny, TH… moreE Kenny calling someone out for 'breaking groups' after hours ago 3 member of our group ran away scared shitless of him? I mean, I know Kenny can be an hypocrite at times, but DAMN! That'd be a whole new level.
Comments
Helping strangers for little reason but just because they're there at the time, I have a good feeling that wasn't the case.
Clearly that isn't the case, just because she says something like that doesn't mean she won't abide by her moral judgement and completely contradict herself.
That's probably because her actions speak louder than her words. She might say bad things like that but she always ends up doing more good than her dialogue implies.
She was falling, remember that both were in trouble at the time and both were seeking aid. Jane being the person who has already helped Sarah didn't want to have to risk her life for her again and yet 2/3 instances - staying silent and Clementine asking her to help Sarah, she does so.
I think a better sister might the word, as Jaime wanted to die and Jane tried to keep her alive, that isn't the case with Clementine - she's strong, wants to survive and for a large part, can take care of herself and others pretty good.
I know you're probably half joking, but she did threaten him and technically his sister beforehand. The fact that that gets dropped as a "The Complainer is Wrong" moment and never really acknowledged again just made the hole deeper.
Okay, that I actually understood for exactly the same reason. It wasn't right, it wasn't wrong, but it's an understandable reaction and a totally Kenny moment. It's when the gun got aimed at Mike, Luke, Ar[vo] that where I had to put my foot down.
Kenny: Move out the way! He's still a threat!
Clementine: Kenny, I think you need a Snickers: this is the same dude who, in addition to being handicapped, had to defer to the orders of his brutish boss just to know how to deal with us and tried to call things off when he saw the baby--after dragging his feet actually getting back at us. Calling him a threat is like calling walkers harmless.
I was thinking about this today as well, which is why I think the fight should have been between Luke and Kenny because the hated each other from the first conversation they had so it would make sense if they wanted to kill each other in episode 5. Whereas Jane and Kenny where fine with each other up until they started arguing in the car as far as I remember they didn't argue about anything before that moment. And that was only minutes before they had the fight so I don't understand why Jane suddenly wanted Kenny dead, it just doesn't make sense to me. I actually liked both characters up until Jane wanted to kill him and now I kind of dislike her. I actually think if Kenny and Jane got to know each other they would be good friends but as usual she doesn't even give him a chance like all the rest of the characters in season 2. But that's just my opinion
He aimed his gun in their direction but you know he wasn't actually threatening Mike/Luke and whoever stood in the way right? Only to Arvo
This thread is going well.
The fact that he brought the gun out at all was pushing it, as the skit was demonstrating. While definitely more slippery than you'd expect, Arvo didn't really necessitate that type of force considering his state of being after what just happened and Mike and Luke could've gotten shot again if he wasn't careful, only this time they might not be so lucky. And given what people have mentioned about Jane in that scene, neither would Kenny.
Well hold onto the good feeling prink, it's still what i think anyway.
So it makes it right what she said does it? Point is, it doesn't give a good impresssion of her at that point in time and i still think she didn't care a whole lot about the group. She cared about Clem and maybe started to with Luke but I don't think she cared all that much so i stand by what i said but she's not completely heartless.
As i said, it still doesn't change the fact it gave a bad impression of her which is what i'm trying to get at, and when suggesting Rebecca gets rid of the baby (even though i agreed with her of the problems a baby would cause), it still made her seem like she didn't care. But again i know she isn't heartless.
Yeah and i get that and i already said i even agreed that her going down to try and help Sarah was very dangerous but my point is, despite her going down to help her if you stay silent or if Clem asks her twice to do so, it's the way in which she acted about being asked to save her. The way i saw it was after her constant pressure asking Clem to leave her in the trailer, the deck collapse was like a second chance of actually helping her this time. She helps Sarah out of the trailer determinantely yes but only after Clem had convinced Sarah to leave.
Listen man, we'll never agree on anything so let's agree to disagree
The point is that Jane tends to bring the bad reactions she gets on herself and some of her actions just make things even worse on her.
When the hell was this?! It was Clementine who slapped Sarah and helped her to her feet in the trailer; Jane just helped lift her up.
The fact that she went on to insistently accuse Sarah of becoming this suicidal sociopath who was gonna get them killed--when that's the opposite of what ended up happening-- just dug a bigger hole.
It's also the reason she didn't like Sarah--which is why she starts fondly reminiscing about Jaime after getting Sarah killed and starting the Arvo situation without remorse..
Jane didn't seem emotionally invested in the group at all. Only Clementine. I'm going to argue she didn't have reason to be though. She had no history with Carver's group since they ran away before she was caught. They didn't give her food or save her from walkers like they did for Clem, so Jane didn't owe them an allegiance. Jane fulfills the most obligation she had as a bystander. Sarah was almost catatonic in the trailer. If Clementine couldn't rouse her, Jane or Luke would have to carry her.
Well i disagree to be honest. I mean Arvo and his friends had just ambushed the group at gunpoint, i'd be pretty pissed off as well so getting the gun out wouldn't have been pushing it knowing a guy (Arvo) you couldn't trust was still alive. The fact the whole group acted calm and let their defences down just because Arvo appeared harmless is certainly something I wouldn't have done in that situation.
Yeah granted, they could have been shot if he wasn't careful but hey, they were the ones who stood in the way of his aiming of Arvo so they actually put themselves in danger lol
Jane didn't know that Clem knew, though. But she still told the group.
Nu, Dan! There's no point on having a forum if everyone said that!
You gotta love the hypocritical humor going on with Kenny and Jane in that scene: both had a legitimately decent assessment of the situation as a whole, but were also being irrational douches about it. Kenny rightfully points out that the reason Buricko, Vitali, and Natasha came after them in the first place is because of Clementine and Jane robbing Arvo, but then he gives the boy a percussive noogie and draws his gun when Luke and Mike break it up because he's "still" a "threat"; Jane tries to calm Kenny down by pointing out that the presence of a whole group means that Arvo must be telling the truth about having a house with food and supplies for them to use, but then she responds to Kenny pointing out that she robbed him first with "Don't try and pin this on me."
Assholes.
Getting a hold on him and/or tying him up was indeed the best course of action at the moment.
True.
Come on, Jane did 90% of the work there!
Jane stayed behind, risking her life, so that she'd be able to lift Clementine and Sarah to safety. Her and Luke saved both of them, though she was the one that was dangerously close to being dragged down by walkers and devoured.
Well, I guess that much is true. Though there's nothing stopping her from going fuck it and having Luke pull her up anyway, considering the walkers swarm Clementine and eventually Sarah when they flood the room.
Yeah that's right, best if you all gang up on me then right? Sure, sure
Jane was irresponsible and unjust when she absolved herself from all responsibility of the ambush, and I was dissapointed that we did not get a chance to confront her about it—instead, we had an opportunity to guilt-trip her for leaving, when she had the right to do so.
Stupid Telltale.
Yeah, I feel like her treatment of Sarah, to a lesser extent Arvo, and to even lesser extent Kenny is part of what drags her down from being in the right, but her blamelessness and consequence dodging is 1/3 of the main reason I hate her. I'm almost surprised it took me until the campfire scene to actually start outright hating her--that's how patient and forgiving I try to be!
The Sarah thing in general did nothing but taint the rest of the Season but Jane in particular with this uncomfortableness, unfortunate implications, and just a plain sum of the bad writing that really shouldn't have been there.
Doesn't change the fact that she constantly pressured Clem into leaving her. Only after Clem persuaded Sarah did she do the good deed. Granted though that she stayed last before getting herself up
Why do you hate Jane?
What is the Sarah thing and how does it affect your view on Jane?
In the future, you could say something along the lines of, "I am tired of talking about this topic and I'd like to drop the discussion."
By saying "let's agree to disagree" in regard to a topic, not only you are subconsciously allowing yourself to hold an opinion without further consideration, but you are also subconsciously encouraging the other person, and anybody else reading that has an opinion on the matter, to simply accept how they think at this point in time, which inevitably leads to less and poorer discussion in the future.
I believe it's difficult for everybody to analyze how they act, because all humans enjoy being right and fathoming the idea that they could be wrong flows against that. We all are biased, but it shouldn't mean that we're resigned to live like that.
So, if you like, evaluate if what I said makes sense. This post has even helped me, the person writing, to remember that I can be wrong at any moment without noticing.
Oh, I am aware of it, Dan; thanks!
Previous experiences led Jane to believe that Sarah wouldn't be able to leave that episode of derealization behind, which is why she urged Clementine and Luke to leave. Pragmatically, as raw as it sounds, it would be better if three people survived in place of one.
When Clem was able to convince Sarah, like you said—by slapping her suddenly across the face—Jane soon changed her mind and instead focused on getting the girls to safety.
In a few words: Because she's a sociopath.
You know what, not only did I begin my membership here with a topic dedicated to talking about negative reactions to "likable" characters, with my own regarding Jane being used as an example, but Sarah in general was always intended to get an extensive topic from day one but it kept getting pushed back due to a variety of technical and life problems.
For the sake of this question, the Sarah thing I'm referring involves the circumstances surrounding her death (the "canon" one in particular) and all the problems it causes. Jane in particular has her whole presence in the group tainted for me because she was allowed to constantly mistreat a character who didn't do anything to her before getting her killed in a situation she technically caused without any real consequences or development.
Yeah but after all anything i say is hated by most people here so sometimes I really see no point in continuing like with prink so that is why i suggested agreeing to disagree because as usual the convo was going nowhere
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that sentiment
Now look, defining someone as an actual sociopath is a tricky subject, but I wouldn't say Jane counts as one. She might be aloof and somewhat socially awkard, sure. She might show a few sociopathic traits as well, but not enough to classify her as a sociopath, if you ask me.
Not to run the topic off course too much, but if there's any characters in the game that could be considered genuine sociopaths, they'd probably be Danny St John, Randall from the miniseries, and possibly Carver. Maybe throw Troy in there, too. Or even Justin from 400 Days.
Yeah, I know it is. My understanding is that while a psychopath will gladly abuse others and break laws for their own amusement, a sociopath is just very difficult to reason with on a personal level and therefore is more prone to unacceptable behavior regardless of conventional standards.
Jane fits the latter and while I admit there are several moments that showcase that there was a decent human being in there at one point, she's far too jaded and bitter for anyone else's good and only cares about what appeals to her, only changing her attitude or apologizing when it's unavoidable.
1. Agreed. Especially given the whole "You understand how this works, now!" thing in the barn.
Yeah, aside from maybe some vaguely possible very deep hidden depths, he definitely fits. Asshole.
2. Ehhh, maybe not. He seemed a little to personal and "professional" for that though; his sense of humor does make him a psychopath, though.
3. Now, that's a maybe. He felt like he was supposed to be more of a psychopath, what with the sudden bursts of anger and all, but he was so one-note and not at all subtle in Episode 3 that sociopath could work.
4. Honestly, I wouldn't call him either. Maybe its an example of what I can tolerate but he seemed more like a lazy bully who was given power by a tyrant he's kinda afraid of and is obviously trying to impress. Also, something about the way he talked to Jane before his death gave me the vibe that he does have some form of empathy and compassion, its just he's so used to being a dumb hick who doesn't mind beating women, children, and women-children to show that side for very long. Heh, I guess you call his place next to Carver and Jane a case of "Eviler than thou."
5. Oh look, the other entitled asshole I legitimately hate.
Day one. She tolerated the group, but she didn't really want to be in a group to begin with.
This isn't directed at you, but your comment got me thinking about a certain misconception a lot of people tend to have toward people with a secluded mentality.
Some people feel as though Jane is an intrepid survivor simply because she has no desire to chain up with a group and act as though that group, no matter how morally deficient, is an extension of some idealistic representation of a "family." When the reality is something the game never tried to even ponder on, that maybe, just maybe seclusion is a more understandable position fundamentally then wrangled in a group of people that hold you back in the long run from surviving.
It kind of hit me as an epiphany, but I think that the game denying that notion time and time again as a bitterly fueled selfish indignation was a big reason as to why I despise No Going Back's thematic tone. There's so much talk about sticking close to people you're "comfortable" with, but what about the few players who have been trying to break away from the group since day 1? I'm one the few people who knew exactly what Luke was going for when he asked what the most important thing is yet refused to acknowledge his point because unlike most, the romanticization of being with a group as a submissive form of acceptance lacks any gravitas when the game shows that group being ripped asunder.
I'm sure this'll be my next topic cause although I can barely keep my eyes open right now, I still have a lot to go on about. This is just something I pondered on and now finally realized a big reason as to my hatred concerning the tonal shift in No Going Back.
Kenny "Hi, I'm Kenny"
Jane "You're nuts, I'll kill you"
Its not, You just have your own outlook on things, its fine I dont really agree with a lot of what you post but thats okay. However you cant expect some people to not challenge the way you think if they disagree, especially ona forum for discussion.
However I dont get this guy telling you not to say "agree to disagree" because thats just stupid, people can disagree on something particularly on a game based about choice. Plus I will admit people really gang up on others here if your opinion isnt the "correct" one, so I dont blame you for trying to end the conversation when it starts going in circles.
Jane: "Hi. I'm Jane"
Kenny: "You fuckin 'baby killer!"
If I had been in that position, I would be far more offended if somebody attacked the very essence of who I am instead of a visible wound that I recently acquired.
It's why terminology like "faggot" and the "n" word are so hurtful. On the inside, it makes people question whether a central part of their identity, such as sexual orientation or race, is inherently wrong, incorrect and abhorrent—rationally, we know this is false. A joke about wound of yours does not attack the essence of who you are, especially if you were produced that wound few days ago.
Thanks. Honestly though a lot of the time i do feel ganged up on because there are a lot more people that either don't like me or my posts and when i post something they don't like, naturally they will disagree which is fine but it just bothers me when said people get several likes on their comment but nothing on mine which again shows how much people obviously think i'm a shit person or something. Just how i do feel these days. The forums have changed a lot since 2013
Sociopath, psychopath... tomato, tomahto, if you ask me. They accomplish the same basic thing; someone with a diminished capacity for, or outright absence of empathy. The difference between the two is more or less semantics. They're pretty much accepted as interchangeable terms for a lot of people from what I've seen.
And Randall definitely fits the bill, I think. I'd argue against him being 'professional'. His actions feel spontaneous and impulsive. He's quick to violence, even in situations that don't exactly call for it (beating up Michonne and Greg, which even Norma calls him out on). He tries to hunt Michonne down for the entirety of episode 2 against better judgement (and without telling Norma), getting a bunch of his people killed in the process. Then he gets himself captured, tortured and potentially killed, and if you kept him alive and made the trade, he immediately attempts to kill Michonne, leading to his death. Not to mention how ruthless he seems to be against anyone that opposes him; man, woman, child... he doesn't care. If you wronged him, or just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, he has no qualms about taking you out without a second thought. He killed John, a guy he didn't even know whatsoever, for no reason other than that he was in his line of sight. Whatever regard for human life he has, it doesn't seem like very much.
As for the others... yeah, I'm on the fence about Troy and Carver. Troy just seems like a dick in general. Carver's harder to pin down, but the possibility's there.
Justin, however, almost certainly is. He admits he's a good liar, shows no remorse, guilt or concern over the people he conned, faked guilt and remorse to try and get a reduced sentence (cried on the stand), actively brags about his crimes... he definitely shows signs.
You bring up the eye and NOT her targeting Katjaa, Duck, and Sarita? Seriously, I thought Kenny was about to start cryin’ behind the wheel at one point. Now THAT was going too far!
Yeah, that is relatively accurate. Its just that once I learned they were two different words, I tried to make a distinction for the sake of self-education.
Huh. When you put it like that, yeah, he does fit. And even his "professionalism" is relatively freeform based on his opinion of the situation, with his "coaching" of Zachary being the main example.
Agreed.
Clementine: "Guys please stop."
Jane: "Shut up, we're too busy hating each other because reasons!"
Kenny: " Yeah! Go find another group to destroy or whatever it is you do these days."
I swear that if Kenny actually said that, I would totally lose my shit and laugh for like, 10 minutes straight!
I mean, really. Kenny, THE Kenny calling someone out for 'breaking groups' after hours ago 3 member of our group ran away scared shitless of him? I mean, I know Kenny can be an hypocrite at times, but DAMN! That'd be a whole new level.
And since we're talking about Kenny, he'd still think to be in the right no matter what. That's our buddy boy.