I think Kenny is very good at hiding his manipulative tendencies (maybe he's not even aware that he has it in him).
The best example I can find is his conversation with Clem in the truck (No Going Back). I recommend everyone to research that scene and analyse Kenny's speech carefully.
You have to see the pattern. Kenny objectives with that conversation was convincing Clem onto siding with him. Now look at the means.
First he demonizes the rest of the group through his own victimization, twisting the truth just enough for his statement to stay credible enough to make Clem/the player not automatically doubt it, which leads to overlooking the facts.
He then attacks Clem emotional side. 'Think about Rebecca and Alvin', 'what if Lee hadn't...'. He never actually connects what he is saying to his actual point, but he says just enough to make Clem/the player associate Lee looking for her across Georgia to 'going to Wellington's is a good idea'. His speech on itself, has little sense, but right there in that moment he sounds so cohesive and so convincing that one never thinks about questioning what he is actually saying. Watching youtubers reacting to this scene is extremely hilarious. You see Kenny basically saying to them 'Rebecca and Alvin had this baby and Lee sacrificed everything for you, therefore they want us to go to Wellington' and they agreeing with him 100 (and surprisingly even YouTuber who were not too keen on Kenny/disagreed with him beforehand ended up agreeing with him in this scene). I'm not sure I'm making myself very clear .
There's also the fact that he always compliments Clem/the player in some way, which helps the presuasion.
Now be this something Kenny does intentionally or not, this is a way more refined and efficient type of presuasion than Jane ever uses. She uses factual evidence and comparisons/callbacks to previous situations. He simply uses subjectivity, tangents to the actual point, emotional 'punches' and apparent cohesion to make one agree with him. The results are evident, I don't recall many (if any) YouTuber disagreeing with Kenny on his truck speech, and that's fucking incredible. Props to Telltale.
Huh, I suppose you can put it that way. I never really thought about it that way and just assumed he got an attitude and falls back on "I di… mored what I had to do" to avoid admitting that he felt bad about it, which is what I consider to be hiding his remorse.
Manipulation however is NOT his strong suit.
Kenny: "Oh look at this: your tags are all out."
Troy:{Looks right at him}
Kenny: "Don't want em gettin snagged on to somethin."
Troy:{Looks right at Clementine for a second}...Come On!
If Troy wasn't so lazy, they never woulda gotten as far with that plan.
Kenny has never truly been remorseful for anything
I'd argue that actually. His conversation with Clem when asking her to stay in Wellington:
"You'll meet people that don't have to look at you and feel ashamed at what they've put you through"
This to me is showing remorse for everything he's done previously and what he's put her through because don't forget, she has been with him from the start minus the time she was with Christa and has witnessed all that he has done.
I know you'll disagree but that was good enough for me anyway.
Kenny has never truly been remorseful for anything unless it directly affected him. When he killed Larry he said he was sorry...if you do n… moreot agree, his tone changes and he states that he will do anything to keep his family safe...yet he hides the fact of what happened from Katjaa.
He comes up with excuses for beating Arvo and like Jane he manipulates Clementine..telling her that he is sorry for what he did, but we gotta keep AJ safe...bypassing the argument of his cruelty and using the baby as a shield to change the subject.
Actually that speech brought a tear to my eye. A good ending for him, just as Jane asking for forgiveness and willing to help start a community at Howes. I think we can agree that Kenny is not always a bad guy nor is Jane a bad woman. They may have issues, hell they do have issues...but perhaps judging them is not so easy. Kenny always pisses people off then he does something heroic...Jane too. They would have both done better to get slapped around before things exploded into violence between them.
Kenny has never truly been remorseful for anything
I'd argue that actually. His conversation with Clem when asking her to stay in We… morellington:
"You'll meet people that don't have to look at you and feel ashamed at what they've put you through"
This to me is showing remorse for everything he's done previously and what he's put her through because don't forget, she has been with him from the start minus the time she was with Christa and has witnessed all that he has done.
I know you'll disagree but that was good enough for me anyway.
They can't all be wrong. You just see it differently and in the minority it seems. I don't see it as manipulation either but I know you'll attack me for my opinion here probably
I think Kenny is very good at hiding his manipulative tendencies (maybe he's not even aware that he has it in him).
The best example I ca… moren find is his conversation with Clem in the truck (No Going Back). I recommend everyone to research that scene and analyse Kenny's speech carefully.
You have to see the pattern. Kenny objectives with that conversation was convincing Clem onto siding with him. Now look at the means.
* First he demonizes the rest of the group through his own victimization, twisting the truth just enough for his statement to stay credible enough to make Clem/the player not automatically doubt it, which leads to overlooking the facts.
* He then attacks Clem emotional side. 'Think about Rebecca and Alvin', 'what if Lee hadn't...'. He never actually connects what he is saying to his actual point, but he says just enough to make Clem/the player associate Lee looking for her across Georgia to 'going to Wellington's is a … [view original content]
I expressed my opinion blunty because I was sour myself after you disregarded what everybody else has to say. I was not in the right constructive mindset, and I apologize; my intention was not to anger you.
I believe that medical research is more reliable than personal accounts precisely because they are numerous testimonies analyzed. I see it as the study of the individual experience of people with a condition, and not the experience itself. Admittedly, anecdotal evidence is the most useful when you truly want to sympathize with given people's daily life.
Did you read my post at all? I'm not saying that it's right or wrong to agree with Kenny here. I'm saying that Kenny here delivers a speech with little to no cohesion to which I saw many youtubers ending up agreeing with or even changing their opinion because of it.
Watch that scene again. Kenny starts by anatgonising everyone who disagreed with him outside. He then mentions Rebecca, Alvin and Lee, compliments Clem, says that he's proud of her and then finishes off by asking Clem to back him up on his Wellington plan. And how do most youtubers respond? Even the ones who disagreed with him beforehand? They say "yes"! without Kenny making a single point about the plan itself. Now you ask me how is it possible that players that disagreed with him agree with him after he added basically nothing to his reasoning? Good passive presuasion skills which I delved on above. Disagree with me? Tell me why. State your opinion. Speak up. Otherwise I don't have much to go on.
And for chrissake, no one is attacking you. I wasn't even responding to a comment of yours.
They can't all be wrong. You just see it differently and in the minority it seems. I don't see it as manipulation either but I know you'll attack me for my opinion here probably
He wakes up in the fiery valley of hell...well, at least things cannot get any worse he thinks. Just then a familiar voice calls to him....."Dad...we are going to make a fence!!!" Kenny curls into a ball and cries out for forgiveness....just then another voice calls out to him..."Would you shut up, I knew your wife had your balls Nancy, I just wish you would shut your mouth!" Larry looking dapper.
I expressed my opinion blunty because I was sour myself after you disregarded what everyone else has to say
But isn't that what everyone else did with what i had to say?? I disagreed and then got 2 or 3 of you guys telling me in so many words that i'm wrong and posting definitions off the internet which was unneeded as i am well aware and understand mental health
I expressed my opinion blunty because I was sour myself after you disregarded what everybody else has to say. I was not in the right constru… morective mindset, and I apologize; my intention was not to anger you.
I believe that medical research is more reliable than personal accounts precisely because they are numerous testimonies analyzed. I see it as the study of the individual experience of people with a condition, and not the experience itself. Admittedly, anecdotal evidence is the most useful when you truly want to sympathize with given people's daily life.
I expressed my opinion blunty because I was sour myself after you disregarded what everybody else has to say. I was not in the right constru… morective mindset, and I apologize; my intention was not to anger you.
I believe that medical research is more reliable than personal accounts precisely because they are numerous testimonies analyzed. I see it as the study of the individual experience of people with a condition, and not the experience itself. Admittedly, anecdotal evidence is the most useful when you truly want to sympathize with given people's daily life.
No, he wasn't. I always got the gist that most of Troy's dickish behavior was just something he picked up to keep Carver happy so he can laze about while doing his job. And specify being lazy because he honestly doesn't seem as dumb or violent as you'd think he was:
When Carver mentions letting him slap Sarah if Carlos doesn't, he plays along by saying he'd slap the shit outta her and giving her a intimidating glare. When Carlos apparently slaps her harder than he needed to and Troy lampshades this, Carver immediately interjects saying he told them to get to work. This, combined with his earlier reassurance that he froze his ass off in the truck, suggests Troy is a kiss-ass who doesn't mind pushing people around if it keeps him in Carver's good graces.
After he barges in to save Clementine from the walkers, rather than do the expected thing and go off on her for getting attacked, he simply tells her to get outta there and grumbles about her making him have to save her, instead holding Kenny and Mike responsible for the breach and complains that he has to watch them now.
Not too long afterwords, he realizes that Clementine went into the comic store not too long after she left and calls her out after Carver asks for her in his office. When she comes out and determinately gives an excuse, he either tells her to stay away from there (if you say you were hiding) or seems to simply pass it off as a kid thing(if you tell him there are comics in there) before sending her on her way. If you pay attention as she leaves, Troy can be seen glance towards the shop before the camera changes, implying he suspects/knows something.
As I mentioned before, he clearly noticed/suspected they were hiding something due in part to Kenny being unsubtle, but either ignored it as Kenny being fatherly or was simply uninterested in doing anything.
When Clementine goes back into the shop to find Luke, Troy can be seen walking Kenny and Mike back towards the main building and eventually comes right in, immediately stating she's gonna regret this. After angrily marching her out to join the other two, who were waiting not that far off from the main door, he says "You people been here one fuckin day and already you're fuckin up. Well, you just wait and see what happens." and tells them to move. Of course, we see that Luke was discovered and beaten by presumably Carver, implying Troy put two and two together already and realized that Clementine was helping Luke.
Whether or not Clementine/Sarita try to interfere with Carver beating Kenny and cause Troy to butt them with his gun, he is seen visibly disapproving of Carver beating Kenny.
When Jane pacifies him by reminding him that they made some sort of deal to help each other get out, claiming she wants him to leave Howe's with them, he lowers his guard and seems to genuinely ask where would they go.
Whether this makes him another decent person accepting the harshness of the world or just a normal hick with a few hidden depths is up to you. Honestly, had Jane genuinely allowed him to come along, I wouldn't have been surprised if he followed Bonnie's example and tried to make it up to the group over time.
Really, the differences between a sociopath and a psychopath is very muddled, as many different researchers have had different takes on it. Some say that they're the same, suggesting that the 'psychopath' term is outdated, others may argue that there is a difference, but many have conflicting views on what that difference is. All and all, really, there's no solid agreed definitions just yet to determine which is truly correct, though it is evident that both are viewed as personality disorders, which cause the person to have an inability to feel empathy and other emotions, and have a tendency to cause harm to others.
Anyway, on the subject of Kenny- there's not a hope in hell of Kenny being either, as he's been shown to have care for those he loves, something which is near unheard of in such people, and has also been seen as selfless (at times), another trait not associated with a psychopath/sociopath. People like that are only driven by their own desires and gain pleasure by their acts of violence, while Kenny does not. He only does what he does because he genuinely believes that it's the right thing to do or that it's needed, even if it can be, to an extent, brutal (Larry, Carver, Arvo), in order to benefit the ones he loves. I'm not saying the guy's perfect because he's far from it, but to compare him to sociopaths/psychopaths, who're probably the worst of the worst, is a bit over the top, to be honest.
Whoops! Here's another one.
What Is The Difference?
Psychologists tend to break down the two groups by certain factors, and the… morey have a lot in common. Both tend to be charming, despite being unable to empathize normally with others. They offer convincing systems of fear and disgust, but tend to lack both. Here’s the crux, though: Psychopaths cross the line. Sociopaths may hole up in their houses and remove themselves from society, while a psychopath is busy in his basement rigging shackles to his furnace.
Psychopaths are dangerous. They’re violent and cruel, and oftentimes downright sinister. They show no remorse for their actions, usually because of a lesion on a part of their brain responsible for fear and judgment, known as the amygdala. Psychopaths commit crimes in cold blood. They crave control and impulsivity, possess a predatory instinct, and attack proactively rather than as a reaction to confrontation: A 2002 stud… [view original content]
Really, the differences between a sociopath and a psychopath is very muddled, as many different researchers have had different takes on it. … moreSome say that they're the same, suggesting that the 'psychopath' term is outdated, others may argue that there is a difference, but many have conflicting views on what that difference is. All and all, really, there's no solid agreed definitions just yet to determine which is truly correct, though it is evident that both are viewed as personality disorders, which cause the person to have an inability to feel empathy and other emotions, and have a tendency to cause harm to others.
Anyway, on the subject of Kenny- there's not a hope in hell of Kenny being either, as he's been shown to have care for those he loves, something which is near unheard of in such people, and has also been seen as selfless (at times), another trait not associated with a psychopath/sociopath. People like that are only driven by t… [view original content]
I think Kenny is very good at hiding his manipulative tendencies (maybe he's not even aware that he has it in him).
The best example I ca… moren find is his conversation with Clem in the truck (No Going Back). I recommend everyone to research that scene and analyse Kenny's speech carefully.
You have to see the pattern. Kenny objectives with that conversation was convincing Clem onto siding with him. Now look at the means.
* First he demonizes the rest of the group through his own victimization, twisting the truth just enough for his statement to stay credible enough to make Clem/the player not automatically doubt it, which leads to overlooking the facts.
* He then attacks Clem emotional side. 'Think about Rebecca and Alvin', 'what if Lee hadn't...'. He never actually connects what he is saying to his actual point, but he says just enough to make Clem/the player associate Lee looking for her across Georgia to 'going to Wellington's is a … [view original content]
Of course, we see that Luke was discovered and beaten by presumably Carver, implying Troy put two and two together already and realized that Clementine was helping Luke.
I actually think there's a different reason for Troy finding Clementine and bringing her back.
I think what happened is along these lines:
Luke gets captured, taken to the yard
Carver orders everyone to be brought back to the yard, including Kenny, Mike and Clementine
Carver makes the group give up the first radio by beating up Luke
Troy is escorting Kenny and Mike back to the yard, and notices that Clementine is gone
Troy goes back to the comic store, expecting to find her there again
Kenny, Mike and Clementine return to the yard as Carver is in the middle of a speech, which leads into him asking where the second radio is
I don't think Troy knew anything. He was just sitting outside, Carver contacted him on the radio and told him to bring everyone back to the yard. Then he gets even more pissed when he finds Clementine in the comic store again, after he told her off the first time, hence his little speech. They've been at Howe's for one day, and they're already causing problems left, right and center (Kenny and Mike causing a breach, Kenny getting out of his restraints, Clementine going back into the comic store after Troy told her not to, etc)
No, he wasn't. I always got the gist that most of Troy's dickish behavior was just something he picked up to keep Carver happy so he can laz… moree about while doing his job. And specify being lazy because he honestly doesn't seem as dumb or violent as you'd think he was:
* When Carver mentions letting him slap Sarah if Carlos doesn't, he plays along by saying he'd slap the shit outta her and giving her a intimidating glare. When Carlos apparently slaps her harder than he needed to and Troy lampshades this, Carver immediately interjects saying he told them to get to work. This, combined with his earlier reassurance that he froze his ass off in the truck, suggests Troy is a kiss-ass who doesn't mind pushing people around if it keeps him in Carver's good graces.
* After he barges in to save Clementine from the walkers, rather than do the expected thing and go off on her for getting attacked, he simply tells her to get outta there and grumbles a… [view original content]
That's pretty much my reasoning, actually. He likely knew Luke was in the comic book shop already when he was escorting Mike and Kenny back to the yard and realized that Clementine went back in there, presumably because he could hear her through the cracked open door.
Of course, we see that Luke was discovered and beaten by presumably Carver, implying Troy put two and two together already and realized that… more Clementine was helping Luke.
I actually think there's a different reason for Troy finding Clementine and bringing her back.
I think what happened is along these lines:
* Luke gets captured, taken to the yard
* Carver orders everyone to be brought back to the yard, including Kenny, Mike and Clementine
* Carver makes the group give up the first radio by beating up Luke
* Troy is escorting Kenny and Mike back to the yard, and notices that Clementine is gone
* Troy goes back to the comic store, expecting to find her there again
* Kenny, Mike and Clementine return to the yard as Carver is in the middle of a speech, which leads into him asking where the second radio is
I don't think Troy knew anything. He was just sitting outside, Carver contacted him on the radio and told … [view original content]
You see Kenny basically saying to them 'Rebecca and Alvin had this baby and Lee sacrificed everything for you, therefore they want us to go to Wellington'
You know, I don't think that's exactly what he's trying to say. I think the point he's trying to make is that he doesn't want the march up north looking for Wellington to ultimately be for nothing. Kenny's a goal-oriented person; he always had some destination in mind from the minute he showed up. And he's the kind of guy that follows his own objectives to the end, even against better judgement. For example, Kenny wouldn't take no for an answer when they were looking for a boat. If Lee tries to talk sense into him, to think about a plan B, he pretty much tells him to fuck off and keep looking.
"A lot of folks died to make that happen. A lot of folks died to get us this far. We owe it to them to see this done."
Kenny has rationalized the goal of getting to Wellington to be the only way of honoring everyone that has died up to this point; all the people that died to keep Clementine and AJ safe. All the things Kenny gave up/did in their interests. In Kenny's mind,going back south is more or less 'giving up,' despite the fact that the rest of the group brings up some logical points. But Kenny isn't having any of that. When he has his mind set on something, nothing short of his 'goal' catching fire and blowing up in front of him will convince him otherwise.
Simply put; Kenny, as per usual, has his head too far up his own ass to see the forest from the trees. I don't think he's trying to be manipulative here. At least not intentionally. He's not trying to persuade Clementine to side with him, he's trying to rationalize a situation in his own special way. A way that really only makes sense to him. Because when you look at in depth, it just seems so non sequitur; like he's just saying things as he thinks of them, without really trying to tie anything together into a cohesive argument.
It's like the post-apocalyptic equivalent of a friend that scribbles a note for himself, then when you try to read it, you simply can't figure out what the fuck it means, so you end up sitting there for a few minutes trying to decipher the note like it's the Voynich manuscript.
I think Kenny is very good at hiding his manipulative tendencies (maybe he's not even aware that he has it in him).
The best example I ca… moren find is his conversation with Clem in the truck (No Going Back). I recommend everyone to research that scene and analyse Kenny's speech carefully.
You have to see the pattern. Kenny objectives with that conversation was convincing Clem onto siding with him. Now look at the means.
* First he demonizes the rest of the group through his own victimization, twisting the truth just enough for his statement to stay credible enough to make Clem/the player not automatically doubt it, which leads to overlooking the facts.
* He then attacks Clem emotional side. 'Think about Rebecca and Alvin', 'what if Lee hadn't...'. He never actually connects what he is saying to his actual point, but he says just enough to make Clem/the player associate Lee looking for her across Georgia to 'going to Wellington's is a … [view original content]
What I was saying is that Kenny classifies in the category of the impulsive, reckless and somewhat sadistic people—first I thought this was sociopath, but then I learned that this is psychopath.
Technically, Kenny is a psychopath
Kenny might very well classify as a sociopath, but definitely not a psychopath
Which one is it, Sleep?
huh?!
WHICH ONE?!
The first of your paragraphs makes quite a lot of sense, which is why I will refrain from explicitly using both of the terms in the future until a consensus has been reached by researchers.
Really, the differences between a sociopath and a psychopath is very muddled, as many different researchers have had different takes on it. … moreSome say that they're the same, suggesting that the 'psychopath' term is outdated, others may argue that there is a difference, but many have conflicting views on what that difference is. All and all, really, there's no solid agreed definitions just yet to determine which is truly correct, though it is evident that both are viewed as personality disorders, which cause the person to have an inability to feel empathy and other emotions, and have a tendency to cause harm to others.
Anyway, on the subject of Kenny- there's not a hope in hell of Kenny being either, as he's been shown to have care for those he loves, something which is near unheard of in such people, and has also been seen as selfless (at times), another trait not associated with a psychopath/sociopath. People like that are only driven by t… [view original content]
You see Kenny basically saying to them 'Rebecca and Alvin had this baby and Lee sacrificed everything for you, therefore they want us to go … moreto Wellington'
You know, I don't think that's exactly what he's trying to say. I think the point he's trying to make is that he doesn't want the march up north looking for Wellington to ultimately be for nothing. Kenny's a goal-oriented person; he always had some destination in mind from the minute he showed up. And he's the kind of guy that follows his own objectives to the end, even against better judgement. For example, Kenny wouldn't take no for an answer when they were looking for a boat. If Lee tries to talk sense into him, to think about a plan B, he pretty much tells him to fuck off and keep looking.
"A lot of folks died to make that happen. A lot of folks died to get us this far. We owe it to them to see this done."
Kenny has rationalized the goal of getting to Wellington to be the … [view original content]
ECIT - Kenny is only a villain to those people because they only see him for the bad things he has done and the way he comes across to people but choose to ignore all the good things he has done as well or they won't let go of his previous mistakes so he has to be labelled as a villain by them.
More slandering to solidify your narrow-minded points?
I won't sink to your level, but I will say that rather than you flailing around at others that don't agree with you I'd recommend trying to open discussions. Cause this is now the third time you've called me out in a passive aggressive manner for little reason.
Oh yeah, and Kenny is only a villain because of his bad actions and I will ignore the no good things he's never done for anyone, cause it isn't there. Fuck Kenny.
Your move Dan.
EDIT: I'd appreciate if this comment chain could be taken down as soon as possible. I don't exactly feel comfortable with my name being used without consent by someone I used to consider an ok person.
[Blind Sniper Mod Edit:] The situation has been handled, and the original user went out of their way to edit out the info. Nevertheless, I have handled the situation in spite of them removing the info previously.
ECIT - Kenny is only a villain to those people because they only see him for the bad things he has done and the way he comes across to peopl… moree but choose to ignore all the good things he has done as well or they won't let go of his previous mistakes so he has to be labelled as a villain by them.
More slandering to solidify your narrow-minded points?
Slandering? Really? I think not since that what i said is true that anyone who hates him does spew negative things about him and portray him as the villain where as some of us think otherwise. And thanks for the insult calling my views narrow minded because i highly think the same of your points as well.
I won't sink to your level
You won't? But you just called my points narrow minded and accused me of slandering when i clearly wasn't lol. I think that's sinking to my so called level
I will ignore the no good things he's never done for anyone, cause it isn't there. Fuck Kenny.
Ohh yeah he's nevvveerrr done anything for anyone ever, oh yes! It's not like he saved Lee's life at the drugstore. It's not like he went out hunting for the group to make sure they all got food, it's not like he wanted the kids to get food before himself, it's not like he prevented further lives from dying by stopping a man from possibly turning, it's not like he continued to go on runs into Macon to get supplies for the group, it's not like he got an RV working to ensure everyone could leave with him and his family if they had wanted to, it': not like he fixed up a boat for the group, it's not like he saved Christa's life or stopped Ben from suffering, it's not like he took the blame protecting Clem from being beaten down by a "genuine" psychopath, it's not like he helped a pregnant woman deliver her baby, it's not like he got a truck working for a bunch of people he didn't even like, it's not like he was gracious enough to check on a woman he disliked after they just argued in the car after it span out of control and it's not like he selflessly insisted the kids on taking the chance of safety by staying at Wellington.
No, he's never done anything for anyone ever...
Your move Dan.
Your move K.
Ps. What's funny here is, I wasn't actually calling you out or insulting what you said believe it or not. I was actually addressing your post but was not in anyway intending malice towards what you said but merely stating that the way you and others see him as a villain is because of focusing on all the bad things he's done and most people ignore everything else about his character.
Anyway, you got offended, i get it. Have a good evening
More slandering to solidify your narrow-minded points?
I won't sink to your level, but I will say that rather than you flailing around at… more others that don't agree with you I'd recommend trying to open discussions. Cause this is now the third time you've called me out in a passive aggressive manner for little reason.
Oh yeah, and Kenny is only a villain because of his bad actions and I will ignore the no good things he's never done for anyone, cause it isn't there. Fuck Kenny.
Your move Dan.
EDIT: I'd appreciate if this comment chain could be taken down as soon as possible. I don't exactly feel comfortable with my name being used without consent by someone I used to consider an ok person.
[Blind Sniper Mod Edit:] The situation has been handled, and the original user went out of their way to edit out the info. Nevertheless, I have handled the situation in spite of them removing the info previously.
More slandering to solidify your narrow-minded points?
I won't sink to your level, but I will say that rather than you flailing around at… more others that don't agree with you I'd recommend trying to open discussions. Cause this is now the third time you've called me out in a passive aggressive manner for little reason.
Oh yeah, and Kenny is only a villain because of his bad actions and I will ignore the no good things he's never done for anyone, cause it isn't there. Fuck Kenny.
Your move Dan.
EDIT: I'd appreciate if this comment chain could be taken down as soon as possible. I don't exactly feel comfortable with my name being used without consent by someone I used to consider an ok person.
[Blind Sniper Mod Edit:] The situation has been handled, and the original user went out of their way to edit out the info. Nevertheless, I have handled the situation in spite of them removing the info previously.
I did not stumble upon your name against your will, and I sure hope that a large portion of users didn't either, but I always thought it was Fredrick Neitzschelhaaben?
I don't want to get too into it but we were friends on PSN for a while and I sort of said my name which I guess he didn't see a problem with using here against me in a debate.
I consider it kind of against moral principle though to use in an open forum to hundreds of people after I shared it privately to him.
I did not stumble upon your name against your will, and I sure hope that a large portion of users didn't either, but I always thought it was Fredrick Neitzschelhaaben?
What's the deal with Dan naming you then, Fred?
I don't want to get too into it but we were friends on PSN for a while and I sort of said my name which I guess he didn't see a problem with… more using here against me in a debate.
I consider it kind of against moral principle though to use in an open forum to hundreds of people after I shared it privately to him.
Comments
I think Kenny is very good at hiding his manipulative tendencies (maybe he's not even aware that he has it in him).
The best example I can find is his conversation with Clem in the truck (No Going Back). I recommend everyone to research that scene and analyse Kenny's speech carefully.
You have to see the pattern. Kenny objectives with that conversation was convincing Clem onto siding with him. Now look at the means.
Now be this something Kenny does intentionally or not, this is a way more refined and efficient type of presuasion than Jane ever uses. She uses factual evidence and comparisons/callbacks to previous situations. He simply uses subjectivity, tangents to the actual point, emotional 'punches' and apparent cohesion to make one agree with him. The results are evident, I don't recall many (if any) YouTuber disagreeing with Kenny on his truck speech, and that's fucking incredible. Props to Telltale.
I'd argue that actually. His conversation with Clem when asking her to stay in Wellington:
"You'll meet people that don't have to look at you and feel ashamed at what they've put you through"
This to me is showing remorse for everything he's done previously and what he's put her through because don't forget, she has been with him from the start minus the time she was with Christa and has witnessed all that he has done.
I know you'll disagree but that was good enough for me anyway.
See what i mean? I can't say a fucking thing without you shitting on what i say so there's no point
Sorry that was out of order from me but im really getting pissed off about this
Actually that speech brought a tear to my eye. A good ending for him, just as Jane asking for forgiveness and willing to help start a community at Howes. I think we can agree that Kenny is not always a bad guy nor is Jane a bad woman. They may have issues, hell they do have issues...but perhaps judging them is not so easy. Kenny always pisses people off then he does something heroic...Jane too. They would have both done better to get slapped around before things exploded into violence between them.
They can't all be wrong. You just see it differently and in the minority it seems. I don't see it as manipulation either but I know you'll attack me for my opinion here probably
I expressed my opinion blunty because I was sour myself after you disregarded what everybody else has to say. I was not in the right constructive mindset, and I apologize; my intention was not to anger you.
I believe that medical research is more reliable than personal accounts precisely because they are numerous testimonies analyzed. I see it as the study of the individual experience of people with a condition, and not the experience itself. Admittedly, anecdotal evidence is the most useful when you truly want to sympathize with given people's daily life.
Did you read my post at all? I'm not saying that it's right or wrong to agree with Kenny here. I'm saying that Kenny here delivers a speech with little to no cohesion to which I saw many youtubers ending up agreeing with or even changing their opinion because of it.
Watch that scene again. Kenny starts by anatgonising everyone who disagreed with him outside. He then mentions Rebecca, Alvin and Lee, compliments Clem, says that he's proud of her and then finishes off by asking Clem to back him up on his Wellington plan. And how do most youtubers respond? Even the ones who disagreed with him beforehand? They say "yes"! without Kenny making a single point about the plan itself. Now you ask me how is it possible that players that disagreed with him agree with him after he added basically nothing to his reasoning? Good passive presuasion skills which I delved on above. Disagree with me? Tell me why. State your opinion. Speak up. Otherwise I don't have much to go on.
And for chrissake, no one is attacking you. I wasn't even responding to a comment of yours.
Sound like a good direction for season 4.
But isn't that what everyone else did with what i had to say?? I disagreed and then got 2 or 3 of you guys telling me in so many words that i'm wrong and posting definitions off the internet which was unneeded as i am well aware and understand mental health
Anyway forget it. I cannot be bothered arguing right now
No, he wasn't. I always got the gist that most of Troy's dickish behavior was just something he picked up to keep Carver happy so he can laze about while doing his job. And specify being lazy because he honestly doesn't seem as dumb or violent as you'd think he was:
Whether this makes him another decent person accepting the harshness of the world or just a normal hick with a few hidden depths is up to you. Honestly, had Jane genuinely allowed him to come along, I wouldn't have been surprised if he followed Bonnie's example and tried to make it up to the group over time.
Really, the differences between a sociopath and a psychopath is very muddled, as many different researchers have had different takes on it. Some say that they're the same, suggesting that the 'psychopath' term is outdated, others may argue that there is a difference, but many have conflicting views on what that difference is. All and all, really, there's no solid agreed definitions just yet to determine which is truly correct, though it is evident that both are viewed as personality disorders, which cause the person to have an inability to feel empathy and other emotions, and have a tendency to cause harm to others.
Anyway, on the subject of Kenny- there's not a hope in hell of Kenny being either, as he's been shown to have care for those he loves, something which is near unheard of in such people, and has also been seen as selfless (at times), another trait not associated with a psychopath/sociopath. People like that are only driven by their own desires and gain pleasure by their acts of violence, while Kenny does not. He only does what he does because he genuinely believes that it's the right thing to do or that it's needed, even if it can be, to an extent, brutal (Larry, Carver, Arvo), in order to benefit the ones he loves. I'm not saying the guy's perfect because he's far from it, but to compare him to sociopaths/psychopaths, who're probably the worst of the worst, is a bit over the top, to be honest.
Thank you for that @OneWayNoWay
Black and White Insanity or Foxlike Manipulation? You decide!
I actually think there's a different reason for Troy finding Clementine and bringing her back.
I think what happened is along these lines:
Luke gets captured, taken to the yard
Carver orders everyone to be brought back to the yard, including Kenny, Mike and Clementine
Carver makes the group give up the first radio by beating up Luke
Troy is escorting Kenny and Mike back to the yard, and notices that Clementine is gone
Troy goes back to the comic store, expecting to find her there again
Kenny, Mike and Clementine return to the yard as Carver is in the middle of a speech, which leads into him asking where the second radio is
I don't think Troy knew anything. He was just sitting outside, Carver contacted him on the radio and told him to bring everyone back to the yard. Then he gets even more pissed when he finds Clementine in the comic store again, after he told her off the first time, hence his little speech. They've been at Howe's for one day, and they're already causing problems left, right and center (Kenny and Mike causing a breach, Kenny getting out of his restraints, Clementine going back into the comic store after Troy told her not to, etc)
That's pretty much my reasoning, actually. He likely knew Luke was in the comic book shop already when he was escorting Mike and Kenny back to the yard and realized that Clementine went back in there, presumably because he could hear her through the cracked open door.
You know, I don't think that's exactly what he's trying to say. I think the point he's trying to make is that he doesn't want the march up north looking for Wellington to ultimately be for nothing. Kenny's a goal-oriented person; he always had some destination in mind from the minute he showed up. And he's the kind of guy that follows his own objectives to the end, even against better judgement. For example, Kenny wouldn't take no for an answer when they were looking for a boat. If Lee tries to talk sense into him, to think about a plan B, he pretty much tells him to fuck off and keep looking.
"A lot of folks died to make that happen. A lot of folks died to get us this far. We owe it to them to see this done."
Kenny has rationalized the goal of getting to Wellington to be the only way of honoring everyone that has died up to this point; all the people that died to keep Clementine and AJ safe. All the things Kenny gave up/did in their interests. In Kenny's mind,going back south is more or less 'giving up,' despite the fact that the rest of the group brings up some logical points. But Kenny isn't having any of that. When he has his mind set on something, nothing short of his 'goal' catching fire and blowing up in front of him will convince him otherwise.
Simply put; Kenny, as per usual, has his head too far up his own ass to see the forest from the trees. I don't think he's trying to be manipulative here. At least not intentionally. He's not trying to persuade Clementine to side with him, he's trying to rationalize a situation in his own special way. A way that really only makes sense to him. Because when you look at in depth, it just seems so non sequitur; like he's just saying things as he thinks of them, without really trying to tie anything together into a cohesive argument.
It's like the post-apocalyptic equivalent of a friend that scribbles a note for himself, then when you try to read it, you simply can't figure out what the fuck it means, so you end up sitting there for a few minutes trying to decipher the note like it's the Voynich manuscript.
Which one is it, Sleep?
huh?!
WHICH ONE?!
I was confused about semantics, Deltino, damn it!
Now I look like an inconsequential idiot.
What I was saying is that Kenny classifies in the category of the impulsive, reckless and somewhat sadistic people—first I thought this was sociopath, but then I learned that this is psychopath.
The first of your paragraphs makes quite a lot of sense, which is why I will refrain from explicitly using both of the terms in the future until a consensus has been reached by researchers.
Completely agree @Deltino
ECIT - Kenny is only a villain to those people because they only see him for the bad things he has done and the way he comes across to people but choose to ignore all the good things he has done as well or they won't let go of his previous mistakes so he has to be labelled as a villain by them.
More slandering to solidify your narrow-minded points?
I won't sink to your level, but I will say that rather than you flailing around at others that don't agree with you I'd recommend trying to open discussions. Cause this is now the third time you've called me out in a passive aggressive manner for little reason.
Oh yeah, and Kenny is only a villain because of his bad actions and I will ignore the no good things he's never done for anyone, cause it isn't there. Fuck Kenny.
Your move Dan.
EDIT: I'd appreciate if this comment chain could be taken down as soon as possible. I don't exactly feel comfortable with my name being used without consent by someone I used to consider an ok person.
[Blind Sniper Mod Edit:] The situation has been handled, and the original user went out of their way to edit out the info. Nevertheless, I have handled the situation in spite of them removing the info previously.
Slandering? Really? I think not since that what i said is true that anyone who hates him does spew negative things about him and portray him as the villain where as some of us think otherwise. And thanks for the insult calling my views narrow minded because i highly think the same of your points as well.
You won't? But you just called my points narrow minded and accused me of slandering when i clearly wasn't lol. I think that's sinking to my so called level
Ohh yeah he's nevvveerrr done anything for anyone ever, oh yes! It's not like he saved Lee's life at the drugstore. It's not like he went out hunting for the group to make sure they all got food, it's not like he wanted the kids to get food before himself, it's not like he prevented further lives from dying by stopping a man from possibly turning, it's not like he continued to go on runs into Macon to get supplies for the group, it's not like he got an RV working to ensure everyone could leave with him and his family if they had wanted to, it': not like he fixed up a boat for the group, it's not like he saved Christa's life or stopped Ben from suffering, it's not like he took the blame protecting Clem from being beaten down by a "genuine" psychopath, it's not like he helped a pregnant woman deliver her baby, it's not like he got a truck working for a bunch of people he didn't even like, it's not like he was gracious enough to check on a woman he disliked after they just argued in the car after it span out of control and it's not like he selflessly insisted the kids on taking the chance of safety by staying at Wellington.
No, he's never done anything for anyone ever...
Your move K.
Ps. What's funny here is, I wasn't actually calling you out or insulting what you said believe it or not. I was actually addressing your post but was not in anyway intending malice towards what you said but merely stating that the way you and others see him as a villain is because of focusing on all the bad things he's done and most people ignore everything else about his character.
Anyway, you got offended, i get it. Have a good evening
[removed]
Please refrain from posting personal information about other users - especially without their consent. Thank you.
Thank you for your help.
I appreciate it.
I did not stumble upon your name against your will, and I sure hope that a large portion of users didn't either, but I always thought it was Fredrick Neitzschelhaaben?
What's the deal with Dan naming you then, Fred?
I don't want to get too into it but we were friends on PSN for a while and I sort of said my name which I guess he didn't see a problem with using here against me in a debate.
I consider it kind of against moral principle though to use in an open forum to hundreds of people after I shared it privately to him.
ok Blind or any mod...lets close this thread..time to just think happy thoughts about November.
Just to clarify—it's not Fredrick Neitzschelhaaben?
Not quite, and I'm not from Korea and don't reside in Nepal.
Just a drunken tangent I improvised to confuse people.
"I also love trolling."
His will be done
... by that, I mean yours
... as in, the request to close the thread