I never disliked his character, no. The man just lost his best friend of 20 years, and half his group basically. People handle grief in diff… moreerent ways, and it's not always crying and being sad. He said "Jane made an offer, and Jesus Christ I needed it," meaning he was vulnerable in the moment, and Jane took advantage of that.
I mean, yeah he fucked up, but at least he admits to it.
And as for the other things people seem to get hung up on, like suggesting they "leave a few people behind", and yelling at Sarah to get up, I doubt anyone would know the correct way to act if placed in those situations themselves.
I appreciate the complexity of different characters that telltale gives us. They're human, and they make mistakes. (Pretty much every character in the game). I enjoyed most of them with a couple exceptions, but Luke has and will be one of my favorites.
And you also talked about your "dickishness showing" once in response to yourself considering that Bonnie looked kissable.
So, uh, yeah. I'll walk myself to the door.
Considering you joined in early 2015, i don't expect you to fully understand. Back when Season two was coming out, A LOT of the fans were fangirls who thought Luke was cute or liked him because he was soft and sweet to Clementine, and whenever he would do something wrong, they would turn a blind eye, i was the one who posted the thread about how Luke was an idiot for sleeping with Jane and leaving the group to fend for themselves with a pregnant woman almost in labour, and there were still fangirls who gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Rack off and told to leave are the same thing, like i said, he could of went somewhere else but he chose to desert the group and let those people in there die. And then he goes and gets himself caught when he was the one who made the plan to take the walkies, i suppose there is another excuse right?
Sarah i can agree with, because of what happened to her by her father sheltering her, Arvo is one who i don't have any sympathy for because you can not steal from him, and he still accuses you of stealing in front of his goons, then starts that firefight, and then he is a brat and deserved to get bashed. Your argument is true but has biased opinions (not you, the community) Ben stuffed up a lot, and tried to redeem himself, yet he still got a lot of hate for what he did.
You would be surprised trust me, like i said to another person, you weren't on here when the episodes were coming out, people still gave him the benefit of the doubt, and it was the same ones who were calling him cute or nice. i guess they didn't want to believe that Luke could be so selfish and weak in certain situations.
It's funny how he claims Kenny told him to rack off, so he leaves and deserts the group, he could've found a different spot to hide but he t… moreakes off and look what ended up happening to Walter and Alvin if not saved.
You misunderstood: Kenny said that he took Luke to leave. When Luke shows up in the next episode, it's implied that he was indeed still in the area but he was too late to do anything about the gunshots and Carver capturing everyone, so he simply decided followed the truck on foot and stuck into the settlement to form a plan to save everyone until Clementine happened to walk by.
Not personal, because i have the same feeling towards Clementine except take fangirls out and replace it with people thinking a little girl can cause deaths is forgiven because she's a little girl.
Agreed. In fact, I actually liked Kenny and determinately Bonnie's respective anger towards her actions because it addresses that Clementin… [view original content]
I blame the writing for it.
They make Luke seem caring for the group despite his hiccups a long the way, then they randomly make him have sex with Jane and turn him weird after that, like it was a quick ploy to see how many people would hate the guy after doing one bad act (too me, he did more, but that one act was the killer blow).
At least when Kenny started going funny in season 1 it was because his family had died and they slowly kept building up (yes the meat locker decision does impact a lot) but when his family dies, that's when it really kicks in.
In fairness to him on taking off, it would have been kind of stupid to just let himself get caught out of loyalty to the group. And he did c… moreome back to try and form a plan to get them out of there. His lack of puprose and character are more of a problem than his actions but yeah there were things he done that irritated me a little too.
* Wanting to not kill Carver after he had just bashed Kenny's face in.
* Showing very little understanding of the situation with the Russian's (you can hear him telling Kenny not to shoot them at the start) and charging out, getting himself shot.
* Having sex with Jane, which makes him and Jane responsible for Sarah death imo. If Sarah dies earlier then Clementine is responsible for not trying hard enough to save her.
* Starting an argument with Kenny about looking after the baby. Kenny trying to reduce the burdern of carrying the baby for a sick woman and this jackass accuses him of "being weird about … [view original content]
Considering you joined in early 2015, i don't expect you to fully understand. Back when Season two was coming out, A LOT of the fans were fa… morengirls who thought Luke was cute or liked him because he was soft and sweet to Clementine, and whenever he would do something wrong, they would turn a blind eye, i was the one who posted the thread about how Luke was an idiot for sleeping with Jane and leaving the group to fend for themselves with a pregnant woman almost in labour, and there were still fangirls who gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Wanting to not kill Carver after he had just bashed Kenny's face in.
I actually really like that scene. Mostly because it gives the characters involved some actual character establishment and highlights their individual personalities: Clementine can either leave or choose to stay and watch Carver die, Kenny gets payback for his eye, Luke refuses to have any part in what he sees as murder, and Carver strokes his ego one last time by encouraging Clementine to watch and mocking Kenny in defiance.
Showing very little understanding of the situation with the Russian's (you can hear him telling Kenny not to shoot them at the start) and charging out, getting himself shot.
He was basically trying to keep the firefight fight from happening and it was technically Clementine/Kenny's fault he got caught with his ass out.
Having sex with Jane, which makes him and Jane responsible for Sarah death imo. If Sarah dies earlier then Clementine is responsible for not trying hard enough to save her.
True, though that's one of the many x5 reasons why Sarah's "canon" death really doesn't resonate with me: it makes what they did worse than it needed to be and even then, it isn't pointed out by anyone so you kinda have to wonder what was the point.
And I'd say it was equally Jane and Sarah's fault for pressuring Clementine to give up and leave. It was still Clementine's choice, but those two were causing the conflict in the situation.
Starting an argument with Kenny about looking after the baby. Kenny trying to reduce the burdern of carrying the baby for a sick woman and this jackass accuses him of "being weird about it."
I honestly don't know what to say about that. Those two weren't getting along once again and disagreed on how they should handle things: Kenny was pushing everyone too hard trying to get the baby to a safe place and Luke was trying to point out that Rebecca needed to rest, with the latter wanting to hold her baby even though she was exhausted. Basically, both wanted to help Rebecca and the baby but had different mindsets about doing it.
In fairness to him on taking off, it would have been kind of stupid to just let himself get caught out of loyalty to the group. And he did c… moreome back to try and form a plan to get them out of there. His lack of puprose and character are more of a problem than his actions but yeah there were things he done that irritated me a little too.
* Wanting to not kill Carver after he had just bashed Kenny's face in.
* Showing very little understanding of the situation with the Russian's (you can hear him telling Kenny not to shoot them at the start) and charging out, getting himself shot.
* Having sex with Jane, which makes him and Jane responsible for Sarah death imo. If Sarah dies earlier then Clementine is responsible for not trying hard enough to save her.
* Starting an argument with Kenny about looking after the baby. Kenny trying to reduce the burdern of carrying the baby for a sick woman and this jackass accuses him of "being weird about … [view original content]
Kinda hard to say that when she was the one who took the initiative and suggested they do that. Plus, if doing things like robbing Arvo counts as making her vulnerable, then she must be vulnerable 24/7: she's easier to get into than an art college!
I didn't hate Luke, I just lost a little bit of respect for him. I held him in a higher light, saw him as one of the pure people in this screwed up world. However that was me being naive or too hopeful. Luke's just human, but I was very pissed off. If him and Jane were going to do that, they could have picked a much better time. I was pissed off at Jane too, but Luke took more heat from me because he tried defending himself. He put all of us at risk just for some action. I wish he had shown a little more remorse about it. Jane avoided getting on my bad side because she suddenly left, now that I think back on it. But yeah, Luke was a good guy, just a little silly or stupid at times. I forgave him.
PS. I would have probably hated him IF Sarah died because of him in my gameplay. I left Sarah behind at the trailer, sadly. Not because I wanted to abandon her, but I felt that I needed to else Jane or Luke would die.
You don't have any idea what went on when the episodes were coming out, you weren't on here at the time. If you were around when it was happening, you'd see just what i was talking about. Check my time that i joined, ive been here almost since the start of the walking dead games , i have a knowledge on both seasons who had different people posting, most are all gone now, you on the other hand, don't have any experience so you don't know, go back and look at when the game was coming out, you'd know then.
When I joined the forums doesn't matter in the slightest. Fangirl or not, it doesn't matter why people like Luke. If you don't like him that's fine but don't make up excuses for other people liking Luke.
You don't have any idea what went on when the episodes were coming out, you weren't on here at the time. If you were around when it was happ… moreening, you'd see just what i was talking about. Check my time that i joined, ive been here almost since the start of the walking dead games , i have a knowledge on both seasons who had different people posting, most are all gone now, you on the other hand, don't have any experience so you don't know, go back and look at when the game was coming out, you'd know then.
Of course it does.
If you were on here between episode releases, you'd see how people really were. We didn't know what the outcomes were at the time because the episodes weren't released, people would give him the benefit of the doubt and the majority were women. No excuses here man, maybe you should figure out why the fangirls made excuses for a guy who dogged an entire group for a few minutes of sex.
When I joined the forums doesn't matter in the slightest. Fangirl or not, it doesn't matter why people like Luke. If you don't like him that's fine but don't make up excuses for other people liking Luke.
Of course it does.
If you were on here between episode releases, you'd see how people really were. We didn't know what the outcomes were at… more the time because the episodes weren't released, people would give him the benefit of the doubt and the majority were women. No excuses here man, maybe you should figure out why the fangirls made excuses for a guy who dogged an entire group for a few minutes of sex.
Didn't think you'd answer the question, can't answer it? too afraid of the truth? Well, you were never around at the time of the releases, so i don't expect you to understand, preppy.
Can't answer what? Your comment on Luke having sex? Personally I understand why Luke did what he did and don't hold a grudge for it. Does that make me a fangirl?
Didn't think you'd answer the question, can't answer it? too afraid of the truth? Well, you were never around at the time of the releases, so i don't expect you to understand, preppy.
Ok, please enlighten me about how there is no grudge about a guy who told the group he was keep a lookout, yet went to have sex with a woman and leave the group to fend for themselves, and may i also add, leaving a pregnant woman who is almost in labour to fend for herself.
Good luck trying to find reasoning in that one.
Can't answer what? Your comment on Luke having sex? Personally I understand why Luke did what he did and don't hold a grudge for it. Does that make me a fangirl?
Ok, please enlighten me about how there is no grudge about a guy who told the group he was keep a lookout, yet went to have sex with a woman… more and leave the group to fend for themselves, and may i also add, leaving a pregnant woman who is almost in labour to fend for herself.
Good luck trying to find reasoning in that one.
Are you one of those "forgive and forget" type of people?
Im all for someone making up for what they did, but Luke never did, in fact, all he did was keep sooking when he was the one in the wrong.
Are you one of those "forgive and forget" type of people?
Im all for someone making up for what they did, but Luke never did, in fact, all he did was keep sooking when he was the one in the wrong.
She was mostly vulnerable because of how Sarah's potential death resembled her own sister's. Jane clearly feels guilty to this day even though there was nothing she could've done, and this situation only led her to feel worse.
Arvo's appearance and her instinctual theft of his medicine are also a factor, but I do not believe that was the primary cause.
Kinda hard to say that when she was the one who took the initiative and suggested they do that. Plus, if doing things like robbing Arvo counts as making her vulnerable, then she must be vulnerable 24/7: she's easier to get into than an art college!
She was mostly vulnerable because of how Sarah's potential death resembled her own sister's. Jane clearly feels guilty to this day even thou… moregh there was nothing she could've done, and this situation only led her to feel worse.
Arvo's appearance and her instinctual theft of his medicine are also a factor, but I do not believe that was the primary cause.
I cannot believe you are using the old timer card to basically brush off people who have different viewpoints.
Luke screwed up..sure...but get over it....Kenny beat an unarmed youth repeatedly and yet people are ok with it. So let's not set some double standard.
People screw up...to err is human as the saying goes.
Plus I really love all the people who blame Clementine for some deaths while ignoring some basic facts.
Clementine is 8 when she is first befriended by the stranger. At no point did we ever tell Clementine that her parents were dead. So a nice guy on the walkie convinces her to keep their conversations secret and oh yeah..he has her parents. The fact is Clementine wanted to believe her parents were alive, and how can you blame her for that? Objectively you cannot. There was deception on all sides...Lee withheld his belief that her parents were dead to keep from breaking her heart...Clementine withheld the fact that the walkie was working because the stranger convinced her that keeping a secret was the best way to get to her parents....and of course the stranger....hell bent on revenge lied to get her.
, he could of went somewhere else but **he chose to desert the group and let those people in there die. **
I'm sorry? Aren't those basically same thing as well? Because going somewhere else is basically deserting the group since he's not there anymore.
And then he goes and gets himself caught when he was the one who made the plan to take the walkies, i suppose there is another excuse right?
Not really? He says he got caught trying to steal some food so he pretty much owned up to it. And yes, that was dumb--understandable given how far he had to travel--but still dumb.
Sarah i can agree with, because of what happened to her by her father sheltering her,
Well, the specific problem I mean in regards to Sarah was the trailer park, where she refused to go because she felt like she was all alone now. She was the grey to Jane's gray: whereas Jane was hypocritically trying to save Clementine by pressuring her into forsaking Sarah, Sarah was taking the opposite approach by not moving due to her PTSD and telling Clementine that she's not like her. She was technically being selfish from a certain point of view but she also didn't actually want anyone to get hurt trying to help her; this can be heard when she and Luke are fighting in the trailer, where she can be heard telling him to leave her because she "can't."
The remorse I was referring to is when she admits that she's "not okay" when Clementine tries to encourage her on the walk back, since she's had time to properly realize they were all at risk of dying because of her, as well as the fact that she spends the rest of the episode hanging around Rebecca's general area and doing what little she can to help the group. It really sucks that she didn't get to do anything more.
Arvo is one who i don't have any sympathy for because you can not steal from him, and 1.he still accuses you of stealing in front of his goons, then 2.starts that firefight, and then 3.he is a brat and deserved to get bashed.
Arvo is a character I didn't think much of originally but has grown on me since after taking the time to analyze the purposes of each character. But even back then, I couldn't help but feel sorry for him since he seemed to be at a constant disadvantage despite his supposed role as a villain. Ironically, that's also my biggest problem with him.
1.Back on topic, Arvo does technically acknowledge if Clementine didn't rob him: while he points her out when Natasha asks if she was one of the robbers, he is clearly reluctant to go along with Buricko's idea to rob the entire group (which he apparently came up with on the spot) and is pressured into just getting on with it when he keeps trying to drag his feet(kinda like what happened with Clementine and Jane, oddly enough). Depending on what you say, he honestly explains to Clementine that he's not being told to ask if you say he's not just taking anything, expresses his lament that they couldn't have met under different circumstances out of appreciation for her kindness, considers Clementine's suggestion to make a deal before Buricko(who can apparently understand some English) tells him no, and does recall that Jane was the instigator if you bring her up, though this also causes him to understandably panic. After the gunfight wipes out his group, he offers to let the group take shelter at his house and even goes as far as to accept Kenny's suggestion that he cross the ice first. So when I included him on that list, it's more that I appreciated his offer and what positive traits he exhibited in spite of Jane, Kenny, and by association Clementine's actions.
Technically, it was Walker!Rebecca and Clementine/Kenny who start the gunfight: Arvo, Natasha, Kenny, and Mike can be heard trying to get everyone to calm down when Rebecca turns and it is her being put down that causes Buricko to open fire.
3.Aside yelling at Mike for disturbing him while grieving and cursing out Kenny for insulting his home and pushing him again, how was he being a brat?
You would be surprised trust me, like i said to another person, you weren't on here when the episodes were coming out, people still gave him the benefit of the doubt, and it was the same ones who were calling him cute or nice.
Oh, I've heard things. Though, I've also heard and seen cases of people bashing and demonizing him no matter what he did even before that episode came out, which irritates me more because it's completely ignoring his many positive traits, highlighting the negatives, and even going as far as to give him negative traits that he doesn't actually have. I mean, if you don't like something about a character, that's fine, but don't weight them down with stuff that doesn't actually apply.
i guess they didn't want to believe that Luke could be so selfish and weak in certain situations.
Even though that was the point and the biggest step for his character development. You're right, though because that's also the point: the one person who constantly tried to do and encourage good suddenly doing something legitimately selfish was meant to show how much everything is going wrong.
Rack off and told to leave are the same thing, like i said, he could of went somewhere else but he chose to desert the group and let those p… moreeople in there die. And then he goes and gets himself caught when he was the one who made the plan to take the walkies, i suppose there is another excuse right?
Sarah i can agree with, because of what happened to her by her father sheltering her, Arvo is one who i don't have any sympathy for because you can not steal from him, and he still accuses you of stealing in front of his goons, then starts that firefight, and then he is a brat and deserved to get bashed. Your argument is true but has biased opinions (not you, the community) Ben stuffed up a lot, and tried to redeem himself, yet he still got a lot of hate for what he did.
You would be surprised trust me, like i said to another person, you weren't on here when the episodes were coming out, people still gave him the benefit of the doubt, and it wa… [view original content]
Hey come on now, im only in my early 20's lol, not a pensioner yet.
How can you compare the 2? Luke on multiple occasions deserted the group, and told the group he would keep a lookout and what does he do? Go and have sex with Jane. What if Rebecca got killed by a walker or any of the group because of Luke? Would that be something to just get over? Kenny beating Arvo was deserved, He causes the firefight even if you didn't steal, he gets offered some alcohol by Mike who is only trying to help and he starts yelling and screaming, Then he runs across the ice leading to Luke and Bonnie(depending) dying and Clementine getting badly sick, then he is disrespectful to Kenny, so what to do you expect? Remember, itall started not because of Kenny, but becauase Arvo brought his chronies to kill the group.
Depends on how you play the game, you can tell Clementine on the train they're dead and she starts crying, it was her own negligence that caused it all, she believed a guy on the walkie without ever meeting him, she was told not to by both Christa and Lee and she ignored it. If he was enticing her to come outside, she should've atleast told Lee, but no, she slips away, gets kidnapped and that results in Lee getting bit, Ben if saved dying, Kenny getting lost, Christa and Omid getting seperated from Lee, and Lee dying. Ask yourself, what caused all thoseevents? That's right, Clementine. At least in season two she blames herself, pity the fans didn't.
I cannot believe you are using the old timer card to basically brush off people who have different viewpoints.
Luke screwed up..sure...bu… moret get over it....Kenny beat an unarmed youth repeatedly and yet people are ok with it. So let's not set some double standard.
People screw up...to err is human as the saying goes.
Plus I really love all the people who blame Clementine for some deaths while ignoring some basic facts.
Clementine is 8 when she is first befriended by the stranger. At no point did we ever tell Clementine that her parents were dead. So a nice guy on the walkie convinces her to keep their conversations secret and oh yeah..he has her parents. The fact is Clementine wanted to believe her parents were alive, and how can you blame her for that? Objectively you cannot. There was deception on all sides...Lee withheld his belief that her parents were dead to keep from breaking her heart...Clementine withheld the fact tha… [view original content]
Okay, i'll make myself more clearer, he could've went somewhere else around the ski lodge but instead he runs off or doesn't try to help the hostage situation.
If he didn't talk to Clementine and got caught i'd be cool with it, but the fact that he didtalk to her, made the plan, Clementine risked her own life getting the walkies, and then he goes and does something stupid like that.
Being sheltered by her father didn't help her as well. She wasn't ready for what happens in the world, and she gave up so to speak and didn't know how to handle what had happened, when Clementine sees her dead parents, she is shocked but she understands that she needed to get Lee and herself out of the herd because she was learnt about the world and how life is, Sarah never had that so she had no chance to try to move on quickly from what had happened. Ido agree that they screwed the character up in the end.
Telltale does a good job at making a villain sympathetic, i personally only felt sympathy when we first met him ,after, not so much.
Yeah but see the thing is that he was still the one who decided to approach the group, so weather or not he was treated nice, he still decided to come up to them starting the arguments. like yousaid, he wanted to say sorry but then all the drama happened, indirectly caused if you want to put it that way although i still say caused. when he crosses the ice, he starts to go quickly which then causes the group to panic and that is what in the end, results in luke and bonnie dying and Clementine getting sick.
Well yes when they shoot Rebecca the fight starts, but you have to look at what started all of it, and that was Arvo, had he not come up to them, none of it would of existed.
1: What he did to the group with the firefight, 2: Walking across the ice real fast 3: Saying fuck you to Kenny 4: Refusing help from Mike and the big one 5: Shooting Clementine a little girl and then running away like a coward.
Look, when season two first came out, the majority of stuff about Luke was how cute he was or how nice of a guy he was. Did you ever hear about this chick called Lexxi Porter? She was a woman who got obsessed with Clementine and Luke being together and infamously started the "Cluke" crap. Im not saying that Luke was only looked at as being cute but a lot of the reactions were because of fangirls finding him attractive.
I thought it was a cheap quick way to try and turn a character against the fans real quick ,like with Ben in season 1, he keeps on doing bad stuff to make people grow increasinly resentful to him, where as Luke, it was one sudden big mistake and then making him whiny after it. Seemed poorly written imo.
, he could of went somewhere else but **he chose to desert the group and let those people in there die. **
I'm sorry? Aren't those b… moreasically same thing as well? Because going somewhere else is basically deserting the group since he's not there anymore.
And then he goes and gets himself caught when he was the one who made the plan to take the walkies, i suppose there is another excuse right?
Not really? He says he got caught trying to steal some food so he pretty much owned up to it. And yes, that was dumb--understandable given how far he had to travel--but still dumb.
Sarah i can agree with, because of what happened to her by her father sheltering her,
Well, the specific problem I mean in regards to Sarah was the trailer park, where she refused to go because she felt like she was all alone now. She was the grey to Jane's gray: whereas Jane was hypocritically trying to save Clementine by pressuring her into … [view original content]
Okay, i'll make myself more clearer, he could've went somewhere else around the ski lodge but instead he runs off or doesn't try to help the hostage situation.
If he didn't talk to Clementine and got caught i'd be cool with it, but the fact that he didtalk to her, made the plan, Clementine risked her own life getting the walkies, and then he goes and does something stupid like that.
Okay, that's better! And not redundant, either. Thanks!
Being sheltered by her father didn't help her as well. She wasn't ready for what happens in the world, and she gave up so to speak and didn't know how to handle what had happened, when Clementine sees her dead parents, she is shocked but she understands that she needed to get Lee and herself out of the herd because she was learnt about the world and how life is, Sarah never had that so she had no chance to try to move on quickly from what had happened. Ido agree that they screwed the character up in the end.
Yeah, I know. Something people tend to do with characters like Clementine, Kenny, Sarah, and I guess Jane/Arvo is focus on a single portion of their character to the exclusion of the other, with Sarah either having her sheltering by Carlos used to exclusively defend her or having her inability to react appropriately to certain situations used to overtly criticize her. Even though she's one of my favorite characters, I try to look at her and the other likable/sympathetic characters as an entire package so that their negative traits serve to underscore their positives, while doing the reverse with the unlikable/unsympathetic characters if possible.
And I should know more than anyone that what they did with Sarah's character was definitely the worst moment they had from a writing standpoint, which I've talked about at varying length in various threads. Rather than go with whatever storyline they clearly had planned for her redemption/corruption or at least a fitting closure for her character, they chose to kill her off in the most unnecessary method possible to the tainting detriment of the Season going forward. And the messed up thing about that is that there's a number of details in-game and a few rumors I've heard that imply that not only was she slowly starting to recover, but that she may not have been meant to die the way she did at the observation deck originally.
Telltale does a good job at making a villain sympathetic, i personally only felt sympathy when we first met him ,after, not so much.
Okay, that's perfectly understandable. After dealing with the comparatively insufferable archetype Carver came off as, having Arvo show up as just another survivor was a welcome breath of fresh air that felt like it would both hearken back to the villains of Season 1 and take advantage of the state of the world in Season 2 to produce a legitimately middling conflict. Too bad his group got wiped out so early and Kenny started making Arvo look like a Designated Villain after a while.
Yeah but see the thing is that he was still the one who decided to approach the group, so weather or not he was treated nice, he still decided to come up to them starting the arguments. like yousaid, he wanted to say sorry but then all the drama happened, indirectly caused if you want to put it that way although i still say caused. when he crosses the ice, he starts to go quickly which then causes the group to panic and that is what in the end, results in luke and bonnie dying and Clementine getting sick.
Yes, I get that, but like the Sarah and Luke issues, this is another problem that Jane started, and unlike with them, she legitimately did something she knew would only cause problems for someone else. Not to say that Arvo and especially his group didn't overreact, but you can't have a fight without throwing the first punch.
As for the ice, that was more because of a combination of the walkers and an environmental hazard that not even he expected: when the walkers started coming after them, Arvo and Luke both got a little too spooked. Arvo started to run because not only was Kenny making him even more nervous but he was confident that the ice would hold their weight, which is why he accepted Kenny's suggestion that he go first in the first place; Luke on the other hand was much heavier and his limp acquired from Vitali just made it worse and so the ice cracked under him. Clementine/Bonnie's refusal to just cover him meant that their additional weight caused him to fall in to his death, while Arvo also nearly fell in despite being much lighter because the ice was apparently thinner than he thought and he only got out because only his leg was caught in the hole and Kenny got him up.
Well yes when they shoot Rebecca the fight starts, but you have to look at what started all of it, and that was Arvo, had he not come up to them, none of it would of existed.
Again, I'd say Jane was more to blame for that. Arvo was just minding his own business when he came to the deck but her decision to rob him of his gun and determinately his sister's medicine is what pissed off his group and made them come after her and Clementine in the first place. Yes, Arvo could've convinced them to let it go and probably did, but Jane was the reason either Buricko or Natasha wanted to go after them for threatening what's theirs.
1: What he did to the group with the firefight, 2: Walking across the ice real fast 3: Saying fuck you to Kenny 4: Refusing help from Mike and the big one 5: Shooting Clementine a little girl and then running away like a coward.
1. Again, Arvo tried to prevent it from happening and begged Buricko to just back down, but he and Vitali were a little too trigger happy for anyone's good. And even when things got outta hand, his first priority was to help his sister--in line of fire, no less!(No seriously, why didn't he just move her behind cover first?) As Clementine herself has witnessed numerous times, there's only so much one person can do without the cooperation of others, something I was hoping they would've properly addressed beyond Kenny getting on Arvo and Jane's case, as well as Clementine determinately standing up for him.
2.Addressed up above.
3.
4.What do you mean refusing to help Mike? When Clementine finds the two outside that final night, Arvo is trying to start the truck and suggests that Mike wire it(Not so Different? ) when he learns that Kenny has the keys. And Clementine reveals herself, he gets out a rifle to cover Mike as he talks to her, which was originally for good reason: there's was an option to actually shoot Mike in early versions of the game, which is what would cause Arvo to shoot Clementine in retaliation.
5.And this is where the ice breaks, so to speak! This was what I refer to when I say that the way the story's morality fluctuates makes somethings work differently than intend and that I try to take all aspects of a character into account when talking about them. Because from my understanding, Arvo's concept is that of a bystander who becomes an antagonist due to the strained actions of the "heroes" and gradually devolves into actual villainy. The point of Arvo shooting Clementine after she presents a potential threat to Mike's escape plan was to show that Arvo has lost everything he cares about and that his treatment by Kenny embittered him into throwing away the morals and reluctance that characterized him at the beginning of his character arc, which means he can now unshakably shoot the same little girl he previously refused to. It's also an example of one thing a character does making up the majority of his character in the eyes of a number of the fanbase, who always defer to that final scene when talking about the boy. And it is the reason why I think him being so sympathetic was a problem: because he had so many scruples and understandable motivations, it made his treatment after the shootout feel way too unfounded compared to the much more unlikable and unsympathetic Kenny and Jane, respectively, with the latter also being dragged down by her previous actions towards Rebecca and Sarah. I talk about it at length here, but for this final scene to have worked properly, there needed to be a visible transition for passive to reluctant to angry to vengeful. It was supposed to be his transformation into a fullout villain who won't hesitate to hurt a child but instead it felt more like a disproportionate avenging for all of the overwhelming mistreatment that he had suffered from his first scene.
Look, when season two first came out, the majority of stuff about Luke was how cute he was or how nice of a guy he was. Did you ever hear about this chick called Lexxi Porter? She was a woman who got obsessed with Clementine and Luke being together and infamously started the "Cluke" crap. Im not saying that Luke was only looked at as being cute but a lot of the reactions were because of fangirls finding him attractive.
Again, I heard about that stuff and honestly, I don't feel like it matters to me that much. Shipping(Cluke, Carlee, Sane) is universal thing to fanbases and so fanservice(Luke, Jane, Season 2 Kenny in general). People blindly defend or even ruthlessly demonize characters solely based on how they look to them and whether they get together with the character they want them to. When I said that I didn't like some of the hate he was getting, this is why: people projecting their own assumptions onto him without giving heed to the actual bad or good traits to his personality. I've since learned to try and ignore that stuff if it isn't as bad as it could be. Since I didn't play Season 2 until back in June, the entire thing had been out for discussion for two whole years(fuck!) and Luke's character as a whole was available to analyze. I personally like Luke because of his positive traits, namely his desire to do the right thing even though he never gets very far with that notion, but his negative traits are something I also keep in mind because without them, his positive traits wouldn't be nearly as strong. I understand that you were around since the heyday of Season 2's release, but I also want to encourage you to try and look past that when possible--Spare yourself the aggravation, you know?
I thought it was a cheap quick way to try and turn a character against the fans real quick ,like with Ben in season 1, he keeps on doing bad stuff to make people grow increasinly resentful to him, where as Luke, it was one sudden big mistake and then making him whiny after it. Seemed poorly written imo.
You're partially right in that the increasing mistakes on his part may have been meant to show that his feet are made of clay, but I think it goes further than that. I plan on writing a critique about this in that thread I just linked, but Luke seemed like he was made to be something of a composite idea of Lee and Carley: someone Clementine could always fall back on when she needed to talk to someone or a partner for carrying out a task--basically, an Ideal Hero! The problem I noticed with his character is that it feels like so much effort went into making him this Paragon, that there wasn't as much put into making him a character. During the first 2 1/2 episodes, Luke is mostly portrayed as a nice guy who tries to do the right thing and keep the group on the straight and narrow, even standing up for Clementine whenever Rebecca, Nick, or Carlos bothered her. Aside from a few instances of him screwing up or being overshadowed(another critique I want to do at some point), he was made out to be a heroic underdog, with his friends Nick and Bonnie mentioning him as someone they really admire and his rivals Kenny and Carver badmouthing him as being a flake.
However, one of the earliest spoilers I ever saw during my waiting period was the TVTropes YMMV that mentioned that he and a spoilered character(Kenny) had something of a rivalry going on, with Team Kenny citing him as being too naive and idealistic compared to the awesomely trustworthy Kenny, while Team Luke found him to be genuinely nice and likeable over the brash and selfish Kenny, indicating that this positive image of him was being divisive. And as I've since learned, Kenny vs. Luke was indeed a big thing, so showing the strengths and weaknesses of both feels like it had become intention by Amid the Ruins, where Kenny blamed Clementine for Sarita's death and became overly dedicated to taking care of AJ, while Luke started feeling bad about himself and got too distracted doing Jane to warn the group about the approaching herd, nearly causing Rebecca to miscarriage.
To get back to Luke himself, I believe this was indeed intentional to giving him his character development: Luke's whole thing up til that point was trying to encourage everyone to do the right thing and keeping the group together, but as of Amid the Ruins, he proves Walter's words true when he starts to feel bad about himself for failing to save everyone, is reeling from the injuries Carver, Troy, Tavia, and possibly Sarah gave him, and does something legitimately selfish at the group's risk. This makes it clear that despite all his attempts to act otherwise, he's just a regular person trying to survive like everyone else. And since people were already liking or hating him for whatever reason they could find, why not give them something legitimately bad to debate over? Yes, it could've been handled and paced better, but those are problems with Season 2 in general. They did the same with Sarah and technically Arvo and the opposite with Kenny and Jane, at least when they weren't trying to make the other look good in comparison.
Sorry this got a bit long. I have a habit of doing that.
Okay, i'll make myself more clearer, he could've went somewhere else around the ski lodge but instead he runs off or doesn't try to help the… more hostage situation.
If he didn't talk to Clementine and got caught i'd be cool with it, but the fact that he didtalk to her, made the plan, Clementine risked her own life getting the walkies, and then he goes and does something stupid like that.
Being sheltered by her father didn't help her as well. She wasn't ready for what happens in the world, and she gave up so to speak and didn't know how to handle what had happened, when Clementine sees her dead parents, she is shocked but she understands that she needed to get Lee and herself out of the herd because she was learnt about the world and how life is, Sarah never had that so she had no chance to try to move on quickly from what had happened. Ido agree that they screwed the character up in the end.
Telltale does a good job at making a villain sy… [view original content]
The way you feel with Sarah is how i felt with Ben in season one, i thought his speech to Kenny and his small improvement could've been a sign going forward of him improving for instance, he wants to die in the bell tower, and you have the chance to save him, only to have him die half through the next episode. Like Sarah, you put that effort into convincing her to get out of the trailer only to have her die in the deck collapse. What was the point in saving those 2 characters, only to have them die pretty soon after the events? Sarah didn't get a chance to improve because she was pushed to the back once she the choice was made to save her, but we've all seen that once a characters fate is die or be saved, they don't show much value anymore after it until they die for good.
I can see why people would feel sympathy for him with what Kenny did to him, it was brutal some of the things he did, me personally, i feel he deserved it by what he did but we all have our on opinions and beliefs, i dont understand why people feel sympathy even though i can see why people would even though i dont understand it, same with the people who feel that way wouldn't understand why i would think a man bashing him is okay.
His beef was with Jane and i can agree with him if he was coming after her, but coming after Clementine and the group even if she doesn't steal is foolish, he could've said to his group that jane stole from him and that clementine wasn't at fault but what can you do.
Also to was because Kenny chased arvo that everyone kind of lost their strides and if Kenny didnt chase after arvo, they probably could've been able to help Luke(i dunno) but having another person shooting, could've made a difference.
Didnt he fall in because he was running or going quickly? That will happen if you start walking to fast or running.
Iagree, Jane was to blame for all of it, but as i said above, Arvo couldve said that it was her and not try to frame the group.
Yeah but the thing is that Arvo was the one who lead them to them, and said that it was clementine who robbed him, he made the mistake by saying that and then tried to make a mends for it but it was too late.
No, i meant when Mike offers arvo a drink when his tied up and he starts yelling to be left alone, that's when Kenny hits him multiple times. which was probably for the good because his yelling could've attracted walkers and obviously talking to him wasnt going to help.
It was like the Luke thing with the sleeping with Jane, they made these 2 characters appear likable or sympathetic, then all of a sudden, they do 1 fucked up thing and then they're selfish or bad. too me, Arvo was always dodgy, he just was weak minded, my problem with the shooting of clementine was that people still felt sorry for him because of what happened to him, where as say if ben did it, he would be hounded with hate because he wasn't portrayed as sympathetic, more a stuff up.
Lol no i understand, coming from someone like yourself who has all the info and the episodes all out rather then one by one releases, it's easier to get a full detail where as back in my day so to speak, you had to speculate more because you had to wait 2 months or so for the next chapter, im just saying that back then, it was more of a "his so cute" type of thing, sure, there were people who liked his character not because of his looks, but a lot of the positive response was because fangirls found him attractive, which pans into every day life, girls find a celebrity attractive, they can do no wrong. it's the way we are even with characters we like over others on these games, the ones we like tend to do little wrong, and the ones we hate tend to do more wrong more from a biased viewpoint.
I actually thought that the end was going to be between Kenny and Luke, swap Jane with Luke. i thought the way they built him and the importance of him and Clementines friendship, that it was going to be put up against Kenny and Clementines long emotional friendship. That was what i thought at the ski lodge scene with who you sit next to, both guys are visibly upset if Clementine doesn't sit next to them.
A lot of those people who disliked Kenny to, are theones who felt he should never of been in season two, so a lot went to Lukes side because he was a new character trying to get development like the rest of season two and those fans thought Kenny was overshadowing them and taking the spotlight.
Ithought the only good thing that came out of what Luke did was that it proved that someone can be really nice, but be selfish and perverted as well. Because we all know that men think with what's downstairs more then women do, so it was good to show that Luke was no different, as he said, Jane made an offer and Luke if he was the nice guy he claimed, would've said "No, im not interested, i have a job to do, and that is keeping a lookout to make sure rebecca, her baby and the group are safe". Guys would call me gay because i turned down a chick for sex lol but that's what he shouldve said and it could've made Jane out to be the bad one because she wanted to have sex and be selfish which would've effected the end decision between herself and Kenny.
Lol its cool i have a habit of going on as well, im a bit obsessed with these games. as you can tell, im one if not the only person who still comments on this forum who was joined in 2012.
Okay, i'll make myself more clearer, he could've went somewhere else around the ski lodge but instead he runs off or doesn't try to help the… more hostage situation.
If he didn't talk to Clementine and got caught i'd be cool with it, but the fact that he didtalk to her, made the plan, Clementine risked her own life getting the walkies, and then he goes and does something stupid like that.
Okay, that's better! And not redundant, either. Thanks!
Being sheltered by her father didn't help her as well. She wasn't ready for what happens in the world, and she gave up so to speak and didn't know how to handle what had happened, when Clementine sees her dead parents, she is shocked but she understands that she needed to get Lee and herself out of the herd because she was learnt about the world and how life is, Sarah never had that so she had no chance to try to move on quickly from what had happened. Ido agree that they screwed the characte… [view original content]
I agree vehemently on that. It's not like Ben wanted Katjaa and Duck to die. What Luke did was really disappointing though. I'm not gonna hate him but that's just... wow
Difference is Ben was trying to help when he screwed up, Luke left a woman in labour in an unprotected position to get laid, he knew she was… more in labour and was given a specific job to do. I could actually forgive that if not for his reaction afterward and back handed apology.
The way you feel with Sarah is how i felt with Ben in season one, i thought his speech to Kenny and his small improvement could've been a sign going forward of him improving for instance, he wants to die in the bell tower, and you have the chance to save him, only to have him die half through the next episode. Like Sarah, you put that effort into convincing her to get out of the trailer only to have her die in the deck collapse. What was the point in saving those 2 characters, only to have them die pretty soon after the events? Sarah didn't get a chance to improve because she was pushed to the back once she the choice was made to save her, but we've all seen that once a characters fate is die or be saved, they don't show much value anymore after it until they die for good.
And you know what, that's the thing that everyone brings up: Sarah for whatever reason caused people to compare her to Ben, in terms of her status as a "liability". The difference is obviously huge: Ben made a conscious choice that eventually got some of his friends killed despite his opposing intentions, was determinately saved in the penultimate episode, get's numerous nondeterminate moments dedicated to his presence, and plays a key role in Kenny's character development, to the point that his determinate murder in the previous episode makes the final one feel noticeably empty without him; Sarah unintentionally does a few minor things that do more to hurt herself than anyone else, is determinately saved in the fourth episode, has some contrasting comments aimed at her that are apparently setting up the direction for the next step in her arc, mostly hangs out in the background, has a few optional dialogue choices, and thanklessly saves everyone from Jane and Luke's negligence before dying in the exact same episode with little to no actual purpose, input, variation, or payoff, with her determinate abandonment only causing Rebecca to briefly break into tears before everything else plays out more or less the same, to the point that the camera briefly alludes to the intended location of her unconscious body.
As people point out, it feels like determinate characters are fated to eventually be killed off at a relatively later time, which is sometimes a necessary evil. The big difference is the execution: Carley or Doug are alternatively saved in the first episode, have the same basic scenes with huge differences that take their personalities and abilities into account, before finally dying in the third at the hands of Lily under slightly different circumstances; Ben is either saved and gets several scenes where he gets some cool moments and a chance to redeem himself before ending up in a fatal situation to help wrap up Kenny's arc, with the conflict between the two having been put to bed; Nick is determinately killed at the hands of a kindly minor character who not too much later ends up dead depending on Clementine's dialogue in the second episode, gets mentioned a few times in passing if determinately killed, gets very few major character specific moments in the third episode if spared, adds in very brief lines in scenes where his presence is incidental, and finally dies offscreen in the penultimate episode in a lazy death I think had some decent thought put into it but loses power due to how little focus he got beforehand, how his walker's put down was needlessly graphic, and how disrespectful it is to him and his fans, with the only benefits being that he was basically used to give Jane a bonding moment, the implied additional punch it is to Luke, and Rebecca crying when she learns.
But for me, Sarah is undoubtably the worst, since not only are both of her deaths in the same episode, in addition to all the things I listed above, but the "canon" death shits all over the first death, does little to nothing to give her [main since Episode 1] character any meaningful focus or closure, isn't acknowledged by anyone beyond Clementine and Jane, the only effects are two different sets of dialogue options immediately afterward and an excuse for Jane to sneak off afterward (the latter of which is in turn completely pointless because she returns in the next episode with her role Sarah's death being completely unaddressed), has very short term or negligent impact on any of the characters besides Luke, was completely pointless given a much more meaningful ending happens literally two scenes later, makes some of the lyrics of the credits song a little odd, and generally causes all sorts of other problems(logical, emotional, moral, sequential, etc.) for the story both going forward and retroactively.
His beef was with Jane and i can agree with him if he was coming after her, but coming after Clementine and the group even if she doesn't steal is foolish, he could've said to his group that jane stole from him and that clementine wasn't at fault but what can you do.
Yeeeah...as I pointed out in my old analysis of him, Arvo isn't as bright as his glasses suggests. He seemed to only single out the group because he remember Clementine being there and actually had to be reminded "Oh yeah! That's alabaster skinned lesbian was the one calling the shots and threatening me when she could've just let me go. Where is she? It's a trap, I know it!"
I even pointed out how he and Jane made some really dumb decisions toward each other, with the possibility of getting Clementine to help him get back at her being highlighted as a smart move to get Buricko to back down or at least aim his dickishness in another direction.
Also to was because Kenny chased arvo that everyone kind of lost their strides and if Kenny didnt chase after arvo, they probably could've been able to help Luke(i dunno) but having another person shooting, could've made a difference.
Didnt he fall in because he was running or going quickly? That will happen if you start walking to fast or running.
Pretty much. Luke simply put too much weight on one foot, while Arvo clearly underestimated how thick the ice was and opened a hole himself that he easily could've fallen in had he been any slower.
Yeah but the thing is that Arvo was the one who lead them to them, and said that it was clementine who robbed him, he made the mistake by saying that and then tried to make a mends for it but it was too late.
"It's everyone's fault." lol
No, i meant when Mike offers arvo a drink when his tied up and he starts yelling to be left alone, that's when Kenny hits him multiple times. which was probably for the good because his yelling could've attracted walkers and obviously talking to him wasnt going to help.
Oh, okay. Not sure what that has to do with helping Mike, buy okay.
Also, that's an example where Kenny being too rough with him not only making sense, but actually helps the story. Kenny really felt that Arvo could hurt someone even though he was tied down and defenseless, so he just acted. So, when Mike tells Kenny that he went too far, Kenny--actually listens! He honestly explains that he didn't mean to knock him out, he didn't want him hurtin' anybody and he just moved. All the other times, it just felt like he was excessively attacking Arvo over the smallest thing just because he felt like it, but this makes it clear that he does have good intentions but that he's trying too hard to help propagate them.
It was like the Luke thing with the sleeping with Jane, they made these 2 characters appear likable or sympathetic, then all of a sudden, they do 1 fucked up thing and then they're selfish or bad. too me, Arvo was always dodgy, he just was weak minded, my problem with the shooting of clementine was that people still felt sorry for him because of what happened to him, where as say if ben did it, he would be hounded with hate because he wasn't portrayed as sympathetic, more a stuff up.
Yeah, that's it all kinda falls a little flat. Arvo shooting Clementine was likely supposed to be him actually doing something undeniably bad after a few relatively small offenses mixed with signs that he isn't a bad person, but because he wasn't nearly antagonistic or meanspirited beforehand, especially when compared to pretty much everyone not named Clementine or Sarah, it can easily feels like he finally snapped from being constantly and unfairly abused and Clementine just happened to be there when it happened.
The funny thing is that him being weakwilled is part of what makes him initially neutral rather than good or bad: he doesn't want to actually do anything he feels is unjust but he can be pressured into doing it because of his passive demeanor.
Something else I brought up when someone compared him to Lilly is that, not matter how good you feel he might be normally, no matter how nice you act when around him, Arvo and Clementine were never really allies. Lilly shooting Carley or Doug, even though it was unintentional, means more because she was a leader and a friend who killed one of her own. As Arvo himself points out, he and Clementine should've met under different circumstance because when they had a chance to spend time together, it was too late for that.
I actually thought that the end was going to be between Kenny and Luke, swap Jane with Luke. i thought the way they built him and the importance of him and Clementines friendship, that it was going to be put up against Kenny and Clementines long emotional friendship. That was what i thought at the ski lodge scene with who you sit next to, both guys are visibly upset if Clementine doesn't sit next to them.
From what I understand, that was the intention at one point, but it got changed somewhere along the line. While I do think Jane makes a little more sense given her actual interaction time with Clementine, I feel bad for the people who waited so long expecting such and such to happen, only to get something else instead.
A lot of those people who disliked Kenny to, are theones who felt he should never of been in season two, so a lot went to Lukes side because he was a new character trying to get development like the rest of season two and those fans thought Kenny was overshadowing them and taking the spotlight.
I feel that Kenny simply being in Season 2 shouldn't be a problem, but the overprominence he had over so many of the original characters is where things started falling apart. I believe it was @wdfan who describe Kenny as "having it all" because there was always controversy whenever he was involved, which is ironically not only one of the things I don't like about him but also an issue that Season 2 tried to get by on.
It's evident even in Episode 1 that someone had a hard on for Kenny, since not only did Clementine have her picture of his family(understandable) but Nick is clearly modeled after him to the point of wearing the same shirt. While Episode 2 was the best in my opinion because it balanced things out, Kenny being there was strategically orchestrated so that his being there felt like it was important. Then Episode 3 came along with it's bareboned nature and Kenny became the protagonist in everything but name, doing more to drive the story than Clementine herself; even having Carver, the main villain of the Season, basically be an evil version of him in the previous episode and trying to distract from the screentime and development the other characters weren't gonna get with nostalgia and "fanservice," ironically making these problems even more noticeable in the process. And the last two episodes was basically setting him up to go rabid and eventually clash with Jane, who, while sporting some of the same problems he had, actually managed to be developed as a different character in the process. Eventually, the game can very well end with the ultimate proof that the writers cared more about Kenny than anyone else: Jane has been killed by him after she (ironically, successfully) tried to show Clementine how dangerous he can be, Mike and Bonnie are put in a position where their legitimate fears and concerns lose some power because they're taking Arvo and his belongings to safety without stopping to consider the welfare of AJ, Arvo is more forced into being a villain than he should've been because "Kenny said so" despite his submissive nature and ironically becomes embittered because of Kenny's constant and sometimes unnecessary abuse of him, and his biggest detractors Carlos, Nick, and Luke die sudden deaths that are primarily outside of their control. Only Rebecca, who some players never forgave due to her 180 from her bitchy attitude, and Alvin are portrayed in a positive light at this point due to putting her trust in him and being the parents of the baby who would motivate Kenny to behave much more actively aggressive towards friend and foe alike.
To put it bluntly: Kenny should've been a highlight, not a big focal point.
Ithought the only good thing that came out of what Luke did was that it proved that someone can be really nice, but be selfish and perverted as well. Because we all know that men think with what's downstairs more then women do, so it was good to show that Luke was no different, as he said, Jane made an offer and Luke if he was the nice guy he claimed, would've said "No, im not interested, i have a job to do, and that is keeping a lookout to make sure rebecca, her baby and the group are safe". Guys would call me gay because i turned down a chick for sex lol but that's what he shouldve said and it could've made Jane out to be the bad one because she wanted to have sex and be selfish which would've effected the end decision between herself and Kenny.
Lol its cool i have a habit of going on as well, im a bit obsessed with these games. as you can tell, im one if not the only person who still comments on this forum who was joined in 2012.
Technically, it did as far as I'm concerned: I was willing to forgive Luke for his negligence not only because I understood his dilemma at that point, but because he has a history of going out of his way to help people, keep the peace, protect the group's best interests, and just try to do the right thing, even if he wasn't very successful; Jane, on the other hand, had more than proven that she was not to be trusted since she showed that she'd gladly betray those who had outlived their usefulness, had similar beliefs to Carver, attempted to abandon Clementine, Rebecca, and Sarah, seemed to have some unusual ideas for when the baby was born, tried to convince Clementine to just up and give up on the people she cares about, pressured Clementine into randomly robbing another group, basically took advantage of Luke's regret at the cost of nearly getting the group killed, and of course everything involving her and Sarah. Luke may not be the most successful hero, but Jane easily outclasses him in terms of callousness.
lol.
The way you feel with Sarah is how i felt with Ben in season one, i thought his speech to Kenny and his small improvement could've b… moreeen a sign going forward of him improving for instance, he wants to die in the bell tower, and you have the chance to save him, only to have him die half through the next episode. Like Sarah, you put that effort into convincing her to get out of the trailer only to have her die in the deck collapse. What was the point in saving those 2 characters, only to have them die pretty soon after the events? Sarah didn't get a chance to improve because she was pushed to the back once she the choice was made to save her, but we've all seen that once a characters fate is die or be saved, they don't show much value anymore after it until they die for good.
I can see why people would feel sympathy for him with what Kenny did to him, it was brutal some of the things he did, me personally, i feel he deserved it by wha… [view original content]
I didn't hate Luke, but I felt pretty disappointed in him. I can understand wanting to give in to temptation to feel something good for once when everything is going to hell around you, but I expected more from him. I expected him to put the groups safety above his selfish needs.
Ben did do some indirect stuff like taking the machette off the door that was stopping the walkers.
Carley and Doug both have different impacts. Carley is more important then Doug, because if you save Doug, you cant tell anyone about your past which is a big storyline.
Nicks to me is the worst because he had a motive and a good background with hismother, his unclepete giving him shit and trying to make up for stuff but they just threw him away after episode 2 which was dissapointing.
No i meant Mike helping Arvo well trying to with the drink. I think Kenny just got worried that Arvo yelling would've attracted walkers, and being it Arvo, thats why he knocked him out but indirectly.
Well Nick was suppose to be like a troll to the players who thought Kenny was coming in episode 1,i remember a real popular meme was a picture of Nick scratching his head saying"Sorry im not Kenny guys" or something like that.
At the time playing the season, i had no problem with Kenny because i loved season one and i loved his character and i nebver connected with seasons twos character so i was always happy that kenny was there. i blamed Clementine for the development of season 2's characters, yeah Kenny was a big part, but Clementine hogged the majority of the screen time in episode 1 which if you remember in season 1 episode 1 it wasn't all lee, all the characters all had time to develop a decent amount of time to the player, season 2s didn't because Clementine took the most game time up then Kenny came and they had no hope.
i tihk that was the thing, Jane wasn;t trustworthy, to many Luke was, so when it happened, people were more angry at him then her, and i even think some chose to forgive him because they felt the writing was poor and didn't want to believe it.
The way you feel with Sarah is how i felt with Ben in season one, i thought his speech to Kenny and his small improvement could've been a si… moregn going forward of him improving for instance, he wants to die in the bell tower, and you have the chance to save him, only to have him die half through the next episode. Like Sarah, you put that effort into convincing her to get out of the trailer only to have her die in the deck collapse. What was the point in saving those 2 characters, only to have them die pretty soon after the events? Sarah didn't get a chance to improve because she was pushed to the back once she the choice was made to save her, but we've all seen that once a characters fate is die or be saved, they don't show much value anymore after it until they die for good.
And you know what, that's the thing that everyone brings up: Sarah for whatever reason caused people to compare her to Ben, in terms of her status as a "liability".… [view original content]
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Jane was vulnerable in that moment as well, so she was not taking advantage.
Holy shit, you remember that?!
Admittedly, I meant dickish as in being mean and crude through an apparent compliment but I guess it works both ways. Kinda like Bonnie!
Plus, there's the fact that my topic about Attractive characters had me name almost exclusively female characters.
Considering you joined in early 2015, i don't expect you to fully understand. Back when Season two was coming out, A LOT of the fans were fangirls who thought Luke was cute or liked him because he was soft and sweet to Clementine, and whenever he would do something wrong, they would turn a blind eye, i was the one who posted the thread about how Luke was an idiot for sleeping with Jane and leaving the group to fend for themselves with a pregnant woman almost in labour, and there were still fangirls who gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Rack off and told to leave are the same thing, like i said, he could of went somewhere else but he chose to desert the group and let those people in there die. And then he goes and gets himself caught when he was the one who made the plan to take the walkies, i suppose there is another excuse right?
Sarah i can agree with, because of what happened to her by her father sheltering her, Arvo is one who i don't have any sympathy for because you can not steal from him, and he still accuses you of stealing in front of his goons, then starts that firefight, and then he is a brat and deserved to get bashed. Your argument is true but has biased opinions (not you, the community) Ben stuffed up a lot, and tried to redeem himself, yet he still got a lot of hate for what he did.
You would be surprised trust me, like i said to another person, you weren't on here when the episodes were coming out, people still gave him the benefit of the doubt, and it was the same ones who were calling him cute or nice. i guess they didn't want to believe that Luke could be so selfish and weak in certain situations.
I blame the writing for it.
They make Luke seem caring for the group despite his hiccups a long the way, then they randomly make him have sex with Jane and turn him weird after that, like it was a quick ploy to see how many people would hate the guy after doing one bad act (too me, he did more, but that one act was the killer blow).
At least when Kenny started going funny in season 1 it was because his family had died and they slowly kept building up (yes the meat locker decision does impact a lot) but when his family dies, that's when it really kicks in.
That's complete crap. You can't dismiss my opinion based on when I joined the forums.
I actually really like that scene. Mostly because it gives the characters involved some actual character establishment and highlights their individual personalities: Clementine can either leave or choose to stay and watch Carver die, Kenny gets payback for his eye, Luke refuses to have any part in what he sees as murder, and Carver strokes his ego one last time by encouraging Clementine to watch and mocking Kenny in defiance.
He was basically trying to keep the firefight fight from happening and it was technically Clementine/Kenny's fault he got caught with his ass out.
True, though that's one of the many x5 reasons why Sarah's "canon" death really doesn't resonate with me: it makes what they did worse than it needed to be and even then, it isn't pointed out by anyone so you kinda have to wonder what was the point.
And I'd say it was equally Jane and Sarah's fault for pressuring Clementine to give up and leave. It was still Clementine's choice, but those two were causing the conflict in the situation.
I honestly don't know what to say about that. Those two weren't getting along once again and disagreed on how they should handle things: Kenny was pushing everyone too hard trying to get the baby to a safe place and Luke was trying to point out that Rebecca needed to rest, with the latter wanting to hold her baby even though she was exhausted. Basically, both wanted to help Rebecca and the baby but had different mindsets about doing it.
Kinda hard to say that when she was the one who took the initiative and suggested they do that. Plus, if doing things like robbing Arvo counts as making her vulnerable, then she must be vulnerable 24/7: she's easier to get into than an art college!
I didn't hate Luke, I just lost a little bit of respect for him. I held him in a higher light, saw him as one of the pure people in this screwed up world. However that was me being naive or too hopeful. Luke's just human, but I was very pissed off. If him and Jane were going to do that, they could have picked a much better time. I was pissed off at Jane too, but Luke took more heat from me because he tried defending himself. He put all of us at risk just for some action. I wish he had shown a little more remorse about it. Jane avoided getting on my bad side because she suddenly left, now that I think back on it. But yeah, Luke was a good guy, just a little silly or stupid at times. I forgave him.
PS. I would have probably hated him IF Sarah died because of him in my gameplay. I left Sarah behind at the trailer, sadly. Not because I wanted to abandon her, but I felt that I needed to else Jane or Luke would die.
You don't have any idea what went on when the episodes were coming out, you weren't on here at the time. If you were around when it was happening, you'd see just what i was talking about. Check my time that i joined, ive been here almost since the start of the walking dead games , i have a knowledge on both seasons who had different people posting, most are all gone now, you on the other hand, don't have any experience so you don't know, go back and look at when the game was coming out, you'd know then.
When I joined the forums doesn't matter in the slightest. Fangirl or not, it doesn't matter why people like Luke. If you don't like him that's fine but don't make up excuses for other people liking Luke.
Of course it does.
If you were on here between episode releases, you'd see how people really were. We didn't know what the outcomes were at the time because the episodes weren't released, people would give him the benefit of the doubt and the majority were women. No excuses here man, maybe you should figure out why the fangirls made excuses for a guy who dogged an entire group for a few minutes of sex.
You are making excuses. You can't seem to just accept that others like Luke.
Didn't think you'd answer the question, can't answer it? too afraid of the truth? Well, you were never around at the time of the releases, so i don't expect you to understand, preppy.
Can't answer what? Your comment on Luke having sex? Personally I understand why Luke did what he did and don't hold a grudge for it. Does that make me a fangirl?
Ok, please enlighten me about how there is no grudge about a guy who told the group he was keep a lookout, yet went to have sex with a woman and leave the group to fend for themselves, and may i also add, leaving a pregnant woman who is almost in labour to fend for herself.
Good luck trying to find reasoning in that one.
I said I don't hold a grudge, not that it's okay. He shouldn't have done it but I'm not angry about it.
Are you one of those "forgive and forget" type of people?
Im all for someone making up for what they did, but Luke never did, in fact, all he did was keep sooking when he was the one in the wrong.
Kind of? I don't know, I still hold a grudge against Arvo but I'm usually pretty forgiving.
I can't believe someone holds a grudge against Arvo.
At least we can agree on something.
Naaaaaaaahhhh. I'm not mad. Anybody would have done the same.
She was mostly vulnerable because of how Sarah's potential death resembled her own sister's. Jane clearly feels guilty to this day even though there was nothing she could've done, and this situation only led her to feel worse.
Arvo's appearance and her instinctual theft of his medicine are also a factor, but I do not believe that was the primary cause.
Huh. You know, I never thought about it that way. Probably because I didn't leave Sarah.
I cannot believe you are using the old timer card to basically brush off people who have different viewpoints.
Luke screwed up..sure...but get over it....Kenny beat an unarmed youth repeatedly and yet people are ok with it. So let's not set some double standard.
People screw up...to err is human as the saying goes.
Plus I really love all the people who blame Clementine for some deaths while ignoring some basic facts.
Clementine is 8 when she is first befriended by the stranger. At no point did we ever tell Clementine that her parents were dead. So a nice guy on the walkie convinces her to keep their conversations secret and oh yeah..he has her parents. The fact is Clementine wanted to believe her parents were alive, and how can you blame her for that? Objectively you cannot. There was deception on all sides...Lee withheld his belief that her parents were dead to keep from breaking her heart...Clementine withheld the fact that the walkie was working because the stranger convinced her that keeping a secret was the best way to get to her parents....and of course the stranger....hell bent on revenge lied to get her.
Secrets kill.
I'm sorry? Aren't those basically same thing as well? Because going somewhere else is basically deserting the group since he's not there anymore.
Not really? He says he got caught trying to steal some food so he pretty much owned up to it. And yes, that was dumb--understandable given how far he had to travel--but still dumb.
Well, the specific problem I mean in regards to Sarah was the trailer park, where she refused to go because she felt like she was all alone now. She was the grey to Jane's gray: whereas Jane was hypocritically trying to save Clementine by pressuring her into forsaking Sarah, Sarah was taking the opposite approach by not moving due to her PTSD and telling Clementine that she's not like her. She was technically being selfish from a certain point of view but she also didn't actually want anyone to get hurt trying to help her; this can be heard when she and Luke are fighting in the trailer, where she can be heard telling him to leave her because she "can't."
The remorse I was referring to is when she admits that she's "not okay" when Clementine tries to encourage her on the walk back, since she's had time to properly realize they were all at risk of dying because of her, as well as the fact that she spends the rest of the episode hanging around Rebecca's general area and doing what little she can to help the group. It really sucks that she didn't get to do anything more.
Arvo is a character I didn't think much of originally but has grown on me since after taking the time to analyze the purposes of each character. But even back then, I couldn't help but feel sorry for him since he seemed to be at a constant disadvantage despite his supposed role as a villain. Ironically, that's also my biggest problem with him.
1.Back on topic, Arvo does technically acknowledge if Clementine didn't rob him: while he points her out when Natasha asks if she was one of the robbers, he is clearly reluctant to go along with Buricko's idea to rob the entire group (which he apparently came up with on the spot) and is pressured into just getting on with it when he keeps trying to drag his feet(kinda like what happened with Clementine and Jane, oddly enough). Depending on what you say, he honestly explains to Clementine that he's not being told to ask if you say he's not just taking anything, expresses his lament that they couldn't have met under different circumstances out of appreciation for her kindness, considers Clementine's suggestion to make a deal before Buricko(who can apparently understand some English) tells him no, and does recall that Jane was the instigator if you bring her up, though this also causes him to understandably panic. After the gunfight wipes out his group, he offers to let the group take shelter at his house and even goes as far as to accept Kenny's suggestion that he cross the ice first. So when I included him on that list, it's more that I appreciated his offer and what positive traits he exhibited in spite of Jane, Kenny, and by association Clementine's actions.
3.Aside yelling at Mike for disturbing him while grieving and cursing out Kenny for insulting his home and pushing him again, how was he being a brat?
Oh, I've heard things. Though, I've also heard and seen cases of people bashing and demonizing him no matter what he did even before that episode came out, which irritates me more because it's completely ignoring his many positive traits, highlighting the negatives, and even going as far as to give him negative traits that he doesn't actually have. I mean, if you don't like something about a character, that's fine, but don't weight them down with stuff that doesn't actually apply.
Even though that was the point and the biggest step for his character development. You're right, though because that's also the point: the one person who constantly tried to do and encourage good suddenly doing something legitimately selfish was meant to show how much everything is going wrong.
Hey come on now, im only in my early 20's lol, not a pensioner yet.
How can you compare the 2? Luke on multiple occasions deserted the group, and told the group he would keep a lookout and what does he do? Go and have sex with Jane. What if Rebecca got killed by a walker or any of the group because of Luke? Would that be something to just get over? Kenny beating Arvo was deserved, He causes the firefight even if you didn't steal, he gets offered some alcohol by Mike who is only trying to help and he starts yelling and screaming, Then he runs across the ice leading to Luke and Bonnie(depending) dying and Clementine getting badly sick, then he is disrespectful to Kenny, so what to do you expect? Remember, itall started not because of Kenny, but becauase Arvo brought his chronies to kill the group.
Depends on how you play the game, you can tell Clementine on the train they're dead and she starts crying, it was her own negligence that caused it all, she believed a guy on the walkie without ever meeting him, she was told not to by both Christa and Lee and she ignored it. If he was enticing her to come outside, she should've atleast told Lee, but no, she slips away, gets kidnapped and that results in Lee getting bit, Ben if saved dying, Kenny getting lost, Christa and Omid getting seperated from Lee, and Lee dying. Ask yourself, what caused all thoseevents? That's right, Clementine. At least in season two she blames herself, pity the fans didn't.
Okay, i'll make myself more clearer, he could've went somewhere else around the ski lodge but instead he runs off or doesn't try to help the hostage situation.
If he didn't talk to Clementine and got caught i'd be cool with it, but the fact that he didtalk to her, made the plan, Clementine risked her own life getting the walkies, and then he goes and does something stupid like that.
Being sheltered by her father didn't help her as well. She wasn't ready for what happens in the world, and she gave up so to speak and didn't know how to handle what had happened, when Clementine sees her dead parents, she is shocked but she understands that she needed to get Lee and herself out of the herd because she was learnt about the world and how life is, Sarah never had that so she had no chance to try to move on quickly from what had happened. Ido agree that they screwed the character up in the end.
Telltale does a good job at making a villain sympathetic, i personally only felt sympathy when we first met him ,after, not so much.
Yeah but see the thing is that he was still the one who decided to approach the group, so weather or not he was treated nice, he still decided to come up to them starting the arguments. like yousaid, he wanted to say sorry but then all the drama happened, indirectly caused if you want to put it that way although i still say caused. when he crosses the ice, he starts to go quickly which then causes the group to panic and that is what in the end, results in luke and bonnie dying and Clementine getting sick.
Well yes when they shoot Rebecca the fight starts, but you have to look at what started all of it, and that was Arvo, had he not come up to them, none of it would of existed.
1: What he did to the group with the firefight, 2: Walking across the ice real fast 3: Saying fuck you to Kenny 4: Refusing help from Mike and the big one 5: Shooting Clementine a little girl and then running away like a coward.
Look, when season two first came out, the majority of stuff about Luke was how cute he was or how nice of a guy he was. Did you ever hear about this chick called Lexxi Porter? She was a woman who got obsessed with Clementine and Luke being together and infamously started the "Cluke" crap. Im not saying that Luke was only looked at as being cute but a lot of the reactions were because of fangirls finding him attractive.
I thought it was a cheap quick way to try and turn a character against the fans real quick ,like with Ben in season 1, he keeps on doing bad stuff to make people grow increasinly resentful to him, where as Luke, it was one sudden big mistake and then making him whiny after it. Seemed poorly written imo.
Okay, that's better! And not redundant, either. Thanks!
Yeah, I know. Something people tend to do with characters like Clementine, Kenny, Sarah, and I guess Jane/Arvo is focus on a single portion of their character to the exclusion of the other, with Sarah either having her sheltering by Carlos used to exclusively defend her or having her inability to react appropriately to certain situations used to overtly criticize her. Even though she's one of my favorite characters, I try to look at her and the other likable/sympathetic characters as an entire package so that their negative traits serve to underscore their positives, while doing the reverse with the unlikable/unsympathetic characters if possible.
And I should know more than anyone that what they did with Sarah's character was definitely the worst moment they had from a writing standpoint, which I've talked about at varying length in various threads. Rather than go with whatever storyline they clearly had planned for her redemption/corruption or at least a fitting closure for her character, they chose to kill her off in the most unnecessary method possible to the tainting detriment of the Season going forward. And the messed up thing about that is that there's a number of details in-game and a few rumors I've heard that imply that not only was she slowly starting to recover, but that she may not have been meant to die the way she did at the observation deck originally.
Okay, that's perfectly understandable. After dealing with the comparatively insufferable archetype Carver came off as, having Arvo show up as just another survivor was a welcome breath of fresh air that felt like it would both hearken back to the villains of Season 1 and take advantage of the state of the world in Season 2 to produce a legitimately middling conflict. Too bad his group got wiped out so early and Kenny started making Arvo look like a Designated Villain after a while.
Yes, I get that, but like the Sarah and Luke issues, this is another problem that Jane started, and unlike with them, she legitimately did something she knew would only cause problems for someone else. Not to say that Arvo and especially his group didn't overreact, but you can't have a fight without throwing the first punch.
As for the ice, that was more because of a combination of the walkers and an environmental hazard that not even he expected: when the walkers started coming after them, Arvo and Luke both got a little too spooked. Arvo started to run because not only was Kenny making him even more nervous but he was confident that the ice would hold their weight, which is why he accepted Kenny's suggestion that he go first in the first place; Luke on the other hand was much heavier and his limp acquired from Vitali just made it worse and so the ice cracked under him. Clementine/Bonnie's refusal to just cover him meant that their additional weight caused him to fall in to his death, while Arvo also nearly fell in despite being much lighter because the ice was apparently thinner than he thought and he only got out because only his leg was caught in the hole and Kenny got him up.
Again, I'd say Jane was more to blame for that. Arvo was just minding his own business when he came to the deck but her decision to rob him of his gun and determinately his sister's medicine is what pissed off his group and made them come after her and Clementine in the first place. Yes, Arvo could've convinced them to let it go and probably did, but Jane was the reason either Buricko or Natasha wanted to go after them for threatening what's theirs.
1. Again, Arvo tried to prevent it from happening and begged Buricko to just back down, but he and Vitali were a little too trigger happy for anyone's good. And even when things got outta hand, his first priority was to help his sister--in line of fire, no less!(No seriously, why didn't he just move her behind cover first?) As Clementine herself has witnessed numerous times, there's only so much one person can do without the cooperation of others, something I was hoping they would've properly addressed beyond Kenny getting on Arvo and Jane's case, as well as Clementine determinately standing up for him.
) when he learns that Kenny has the keys. And Clementine reveals herself, he gets out a rifle to cover Mike as he talks to her, which was originally for good reason: there's was an option to actually shoot Mike in early versions of the game, which is what would cause Arvo to shoot Clementine in retaliation.
2.Addressed up above.
3.
4.What do you mean refusing to help Mike? When Clementine finds the two outside that final night, Arvo is trying to start the truck and suggests that Mike wire it(Not so Different?
5.And this is where the ice breaks, so to speak! This was what I refer to when I say that the way the story's morality fluctuates makes somethings work differently than intend and that I try to take all aspects of a character into account when talking about them. Because from my understanding, Arvo's concept is that of a bystander who becomes an antagonist due to the strained actions of the "heroes" and gradually devolves into actual villainy. The point of Arvo shooting Clementine after she presents a potential threat to Mike's escape plan was to show that Arvo has lost everything he cares about and that his treatment by Kenny embittered him into throwing away the morals and reluctance that characterized him at the beginning of his character arc, which means he can now unshakably shoot the same little girl he previously refused to. It's also an example of one thing a character does making up the majority of his character in the eyes of a number of the fanbase, who always defer to that final scene when talking about the boy. And it is the reason why I think him being so sympathetic was a problem: because he had so many scruples and understandable motivations, it made his treatment after the shootout feel way too unfounded compared to the much more unlikable and unsympathetic Kenny and Jane, respectively, with the latter also being dragged down by her previous actions towards Rebecca and Sarah. I talk about it at length here, but for this final scene to have worked properly, there needed to be a visible transition for passive to reluctant to angry to vengeful. It was supposed to be his transformation into a fullout villain who won't hesitate to hurt a child but instead it felt more like a disproportionate avenging for all of the overwhelming mistreatment that he had suffered from his first scene.
Again, I heard about that stuff and honestly, I don't feel like it matters to me that much. Shipping(Cluke, Carlee, Sane) is universal thing to fanbases and so fanservice(Luke, Jane, Season 2 Kenny in general). People blindly defend or even ruthlessly demonize characters solely based on how they look to them and whether they get together with the character they want them to. When I said that I didn't like some of the hate he was getting, this is why: people projecting their own assumptions onto him without giving heed to the actual bad or good traits to his personality. I've since learned to try and ignore that stuff if it isn't as bad as it could be. Since I didn't play Season 2 until back in June, the entire thing had been out for discussion for two whole years(fuck!) and Luke's character as a whole was available to analyze. I personally like Luke because of his positive traits, namely his desire to do the right thing even though he never gets very far with that notion, but his negative traits are something I also keep in mind because without them, his positive traits wouldn't be nearly as strong. I understand that you were around since the heyday of Season 2's release, but I also want to encourage you to try and look past that when possible--Spare yourself the aggravation, you know?
You're partially right in that the increasing mistakes on his part may have been meant to show that his feet are made of clay, but I think it goes further than that. I plan on writing a critique about this in that thread I just linked, but Luke seemed like he was made to be something of a composite idea of Lee and Carley: someone Clementine could always fall back on when she needed to talk to someone or a partner for carrying out a task--basically, an Ideal Hero! The problem I noticed with his character is that it feels like so much effort went into making him this Paragon, that there wasn't as much put into making him a character. During the first 2 1/2 episodes, Luke is mostly portrayed as a nice guy who tries to do the right thing and keep the group on the straight and narrow, even standing up for Clementine whenever Rebecca, Nick, or Carlos bothered her. Aside from a few instances of him screwing up or being overshadowed(another critique I want to do at some point), he was made out to be a heroic underdog, with his friends Nick and Bonnie mentioning him as someone they really admire and his rivals Kenny and Carver badmouthing him as being a flake.
However, one of the earliest spoilers I ever saw during my waiting period was the TVTropes YMMV that mentioned that he and a spoilered character(Kenny) had something of a rivalry going on, with Team Kenny citing him as being too naive and idealistic compared to the awesomely trustworthy Kenny, while Team Luke found him to be genuinely nice and likeable over the brash and selfish Kenny, indicating that this positive image of him was being divisive. And as I've since learned, Kenny vs. Luke was indeed a big thing, so showing the strengths and weaknesses of both feels like it had become intention by Amid the Ruins, where Kenny blamed Clementine for Sarita's death and became overly dedicated to taking care of AJ, while Luke started feeling bad about himself and got too distracted doing Jane to warn the group about the approaching herd, nearly causing Rebecca to miscarriage.
To get back to Luke himself, I believe this was indeed intentional to giving him his character development: Luke's whole thing up til that point was trying to encourage everyone to do the right thing and keeping the group together, but as of Amid the Ruins, he proves Walter's words true when he starts to feel bad about himself for failing to save everyone, is reeling from the injuries Carver, Troy, Tavia, and possibly Sarah gave him, and does something legitimately selfish at the group's risk. This makes it clear that despite all his attempts to act otherwise, he's just a regular person trying to survive like everyone else. And since people were already liking or hating him for whatever reason they could find, why not give them something legitimately bad to debate over? Yes, it could've been handled and paced better, but those are problems with Season 2 in general. They did the same with Sarah and technically Arvo and the opposite with Kenny and Jane, at least when they weren't trying to make the other look good in comparison.
Sorry this got a bit long. I have a habit of doing that.
lol.
The way you feel with Sarah is how i felt with Ben in season one, i thought his speech to Kenny and his small improvement could've been a sign going forward of him improving for instance, he wants to die in the bell tower, and you have the chance to save him, only to have him die half through the next episode. Like Sarah, you put that effort into convincing her to get out of the trailer only to have her die in the deck collapse. What was the point in saving those 2 characters, only to have them die pretty soon after the events? Sarah didn't get a chance to improve because she was pushed to the back once she the choice was made to save her, but we've all seen that once a characters fate is die or be saved, they don't show much value anymore after it until they die for good.
I can see why people would feel sympathy for him with what Kenny did to him, it was brutal some of the things he did, me personally, i feel he deserved it by what he did but we all have our on opinions and beliefs, i dont understand why people feel sympathy even though i can see why people would even though i dont understand it, same with the people who feel that way wouldn't understand why i would think a man bashing him is okay.
His beef was with Jane and i can agree with him if he was coming after her, but coming after Clementine and the group even if she doesn't steal is foolish, he could've said to his group that jane stole from him and that clementine wasn't at fault but what can you do.
Also to was because Kenny chased arvo that everyone kind of lost their strides and if Kenny didnt chase after arvo, they probably could've been able to help Luke(i dunno) but having another person shooting, could've made a difference.
Didnt he fall in because he was running or going quickly? That will happen if you start walking to fast or running.
Iagree, Jane was to blame for all of it, but as i said above, Arvo couldve said that it was her and not try to frame the group.
Yeah but the thing is that Arvo was the one who lead them to them, and said that it was clementine who robbed him, he made the mistake by saying that and then tried to make a mends for it but it was too late.
No, i meant when Mike offers arvo a drink when his tied up and he starts yelling to be left alone, that's when Kenny hits him multiple times. which was probably for the good because his yelling could've attracted walkers and obviously talking to him wasnt going to help.
It was like the Luke thing with the sleeping with Jane, they made these 2 characters appear likable or sympathetic, then all of a sudden, they do 1 fucked up thing and then they're selfish or bad. too me, Arvo was always dodgy, he just was weak minded, my problem with the shooting of clementine was that people still felt sorry for him because of what happened to him, where as say if ben did it, he would be hounded with hate because he wasn't portrayed as sympathetic, more a stuff up.
Lol no i understand, coming from someone like yourself who has all the info and the episodes all out rather then one by one releases, it's easier to get a full detail where as back in my day so to speak, you had to speculate more because you had to wait 2 months or so for the next chapter, im just saying that back then, it was more of a "his so cute" type of thing, sure, there were people who liked his character not because of his looks, but a lot of the positive response was because fangirls found him attractive, which pans into every day life, girls find a celebrity attractive, they can do no wrong. it's the way we are even with characters we like over others on these games, the ones we like tend to do little wrong, and the ones we hate tend to do more wrong more from a biased viewpoint.
I actually thought that the end was going to be between Kenny and Luke, swap Jane with Luke. i thought the way they built him and the importance of him and Clementines friendship, that it was going to be put up against Kenny and Clementines long emotional friendship. That was what i thought at the ski lodge scene with who you sit next to, both guys are visibly upset if Clementine doesn't sit next to them.
A lot of those people who disliked Kenny to, are theones who felt he should never of been in season two, so a lot went to Lukes side because he was a new character trying to get development like the rest of season two and those fans thought Kenny was overshadowing them and taking the spotlight.
Ithought the only good thing that came out of what Luke did was that it proved that someone can be really nice, but be selfish and perverted as well. Because we all know that men think with what's downstairs more then women do, so it was good to show that Luke was no different, as he said, Jane made an offer and Luke if he was the nice guy he claimed, would've said "No, im not interested, i have a job to do, and that is keeping a lookout to make sure rebecca, her baby and the group are safe". Guys would call me gay because i turned down a chick for sex lol but that's what he shouldve said and it could've made Jane out to be the bad one because she wanted to have sex and be selfish which would've effected the end decision between herself and Kenny.
Lol its cool i have a habit of going on as well, im a bit obsessed with these games. as you can tell, im one if not the only person who still comments on this forum who was joined in 2012.
I agree vehemently on that. It's not like Ben wanted Katjaa and Duck to die. What Luke did was really disappointing though. I'm not gonna hate him but that's just... wow
And you know what, that's the thing that everyone brings up: Sarah for whatever reason caused people to compare her to Ben, in terms of her status as a "liability". The difference is obviously huge: Ben made a conscious choice that eventually got some of his friends killed despite his opposing intentions, was determinately saved in the penultimate episode, get's numerous nondeterminate moments dedicated to his presence, and plays a key role in Kenny's character development, to the point that his determinate murder in the previous episode makes the final one feel noticeably empty without him; Sarah unintentionally does a few minor things that do more to hurt herself than anyone else, is determinately saved in the fourth episode, has some contrasting comments aimed at her that are apparently setting up the direction for the next step in her arc, mostly hangs out in the background, has a few optional dialogue choices, and thanklessly saves everyone from Jane and Luke's negligence before dying in the exact same episode with little to no actual purpose, input, variation, or payoff, with her determinate abandonment only causing Rebecca to briefly break into tears before everything else plays out more or less the same, to the point that the camera briefly alludes to the intended location of her unconscious body.
As people point out, it feels like determinate characters are fated to eventually be killed off at a relatively later time, which is sometimes a necessary evil. The big difference is the execution: Carley or Doug are alternatively saved in the first episode, have the same basic scenes with huge differences that take their personalities and abilities into account, before finally dying in the third at the hands of Lily under slightly different circumstances; Ben is either saved and gets several scenes where he gets some cool moments and a chance to redeem himself before ending up in a fatal situation to help wrap up Kenny's arc, with the conflict between the two having been put to bed; Nick is determinately killed at the hands of a kindly minor character who not too much later ends up dead depending on Clementine's dialogue in the second episode, gets mentioned a few times in passing if determinately killed, gets very few major character specific moments in the third episode if spared, adds in very brief lines in scenes where his presence is incidental, and finally dies offscreen in the penultimate episode in a lazy death I think had some decent thought put into it but loses power due to how little focus he got beforehand, how his walker's put down was needlessly graphic, and how disrespectful it is to him and his fans, with the only benefits being that he was basically used to give Jane a bonding moment, the implied additional punch it is to Luke, and Rebecca crying when she learns.
But for me, Sarah is undoubtably the worst, since not only are both of her deaths in the same episode, in addition to all the things I listed above, but the "canon" death shits all over the first death, does little to nothing to give her [main since Episode 1] character any meaningful focus or closure, isn't acknowledged by anyone beyond Clementine and Jane, the only effects are two different sets of dialogue options immediately afterward and an excuse for Jane to sneak off afterward (the latter of which is in turn completely pointless because she returns in the next episode with her role Sarah's death being completely unaddressed), has very short term or negligent impact on any of the characters besides Luke, was completely pointless given a much more meaningful ending happens literally two scenes later, makes some of the lyrics of the credits song a little odd, and generally causes all sorts of other problems(logical, emotional, moral, sequential, etc.) for the story both going forward and retroactively.
Yeeeah...as I pointed out in my old analysis of him, Arvo isn't as bright as his glasses suggests. He seemed to only single out the group because he remember Clementine being there and actually had to be reminded "Oh yeah! That's alabaster skinned lesbian was the one calling the shots and threatening me when she could've just let me go. Where is she? It's a trap, I know it!"
I even pointed out how he and Jane made some really dumb decisions toward each other, with the possibility of getting Clementine to help him get back at her being highlighted as a smart move to get Buricko to back down or at least aim his dickishness in another direction.
Pretty much. Luke simply put too much weight on one foot, while Arvo clearly underestimated how thick the ice was and opened a hole himself that he easily could've fallen in had he been any slower.
"It's everyone's fault." lol
Oh, okay. Not sure what that has to do with helping Mike, buy okay.
Also, that's an example where Kenny being too rough with him not only making sense, but actually helps the story. Kenny really felt that Arvo could hurt someone even though he was tied down and defenseless, so he just acted. So, when Mike tells Kenny that he went too far, Kenny--actually listens! He honestly explains that he didn't mean to knock him out, he didn't want him hurtin' anybody and he just moved. All the other times, it just felt like he was excessively attacking Arvo over the smallest thing just because he felt like it, but this makes it clear that he does have good intentions but that he's trying too hard to help propagate them.
Yeah, that's it all kinda falls a little flat. Arvo shooting Clementine was likely supposed to be him actually doing something undeniably bad after a few relatively small offenses mixed with signs that he isn't a bad person, but because he wasn't nearly antagonistic or meanspirited beforehand, especially when compared to pretty much everyone not named Clementine or Sarah, it can easily feels like he finally snapped from being constantly and unfairly abused and Clementine just happened to be there when it happened.
The funny thing is that him being weakwilled is part of what makes him initially neutral rather than good or bad: he doesn't want to actually do anything he feels is unjust but he can be pressured into doing it because of his passive demeanor.
Something else I brought up when someone compared him to Lilly is that, not matter how good you feel he might be normally, no matter how nice you act when around him, Arvo and Clementine were never really allies. Lilly shooting Carley or Doug, even though it was unintentional, means more because she was a leader and a friend who killed one of her own. As Arvo himself points out, he and Clementine should've met under different circumstance because when they had a chance to spend time together, it was too late for that.
From what I understand, that was the intention at one point, but it got changed somewhere along the line. While I do think Jane makes a little more sense given her actual interaction time with Clementine, I feel bad for the people who waited so long expecting such and such to happen, only to get something else instead.
I feel that Kenny simply being in Season 2 shouldn't be a problem, but the overprominence he had over so many of the original characters is where things started falling apart. I believe it was @wdfan who describe Kenny as "having it all" because there was always controversy whenever he was involved, which is ironically not only one of the things I don't like about him but also an issue that Season 2 tried to get by on.
It's evident even in Episode 1 that someone had a hard on for Kenny, since not only did Clementine have her picture of his family(understandable) but Nick is clearly modeled after him to the point of wearing the same shirt. While Episode 2 was the best in my opinion because it balanced things out, Kenny being there was strategically orchestrated so that his being there felt like it was important. Then Episode 3 came along with it's bareboned nature and Kenny became the protagonist in everything but name, doing more to drive the story than Clementine herself; even having Carver, the main villain of the Season, basically be an evil version of him in the previous episode and trying to distract from the screentime and development the other characters weren't gonna get with nostalgia and "fanservice," ironically making these problems even more noticeable in the process. And the last two episodes was basically setting him up to go rabid and eventually clash with Jane, who, while sporting some of the same problems he had, actually managed to be developed as a different character in the process. Eventually, the game can very well end with the ultimate proof that the writers cared more about Kenny than anyone else: Jane has been killed by him after she (ironically, successfully) tried to show Clementine how dangerous he can be, Mike and Bonnie are put in a position where their legitimate fears and concerns lose some power because they're taking Arvo and his belongings to safety without stopping to consider the welfare of AJ, Arvo is more forced into being a villain than he should've been because "Kenny said so" despite his submissive nature and ironically becomes embittered because of Kenny's constant and sometimes unnecessary abuse of him, and his biggest detractors Carlos, Nick, and Luke die sudden deaths that are primarily outside of their control. Only Rebecca, who some players never forgave due to her 180 from her bitchy attitude, and Alvin are portrayed in a positive light at this point due to putting her trust in him and being the parents of the baby who would motivate Kenny to behave much more actively aggressive towards friend and foe alike.
To put it bluntly: Kenny should've been a highlight, not a big focal point.
Lol its cool i have a habit of going on as well, im a bit obsessed with these games. as you can tell, im one if not the only person who still comments on this forum who was joined in 2012.
Technically, it did as far as I'm concerned: I was willing to forgive Luke for his negligence not only because I understood his dilemma at that point, but because he has a history of going out of his way to help people, keep the peace, protect the group's best interests, and just try to do the right thing, even if he wasn't very successful; Jane, on the other hand, had more than proven that she was not to be trusted since she showed that she'd gladly betray those who had outlived their usefulness, had similar beliefs to Carver, attempted to abandon Clementine, Rebecca, and Sarah, seemed to have some unusual ideas for when the baby was born, tried to convince Clementine to just up and give up on the people she cares about, pressured Clementine into randomly robbing another group, basically took advantage of Luke's regret at the cost of nearly getting the group killed, and of course everything involving her and Sarah. Luke may not be the most successful hero, but Jane easily outclasses him in terms of callousness.
I didn't hate Luke, but I felt pretty disappointed in him.
I can understand wanting to give in to temptation to feel something good for once when everything is going to hell around you, but I expected more from him. I expected him to put the groups safety above his selfish needs.
Ben did do some indirect stuff like taking the machette off the door that was stopping the walkers.
Carley and Doug both have different impacts. Carley is more important then Doug, because if you save Doug, you cant tell anyone about your past which is a big storyline.
Nicks to me is the worst because he had a motive and a good background with hismother, his unclepete giving him shit and trying to make up for stuff but they just threw him away after episode 2 which was dissapointing.
No i meant Mike helping Arvo well trying to with the drink. I think Kenny just got worried that Arvo yelling would've attracted walkers, and being it Arvo, thats why he knocked him out but indirectly.
Well Nick was suppose to be like a troll to the players who thought Kenny was coming in episode 1,i remember a real popular meme was a picture of Nick scratching his head saying"Sorry im not Kenny guys" or something like that.
At the time playing the season, i had no problem with Kenny because i loved season one and i loved his character and i nebver connected with seasons twos character so i was always happy that kenny was there. i blamed Clementine for the development of season 2's characters, yeah Kenny was a big part, but Clementine hogged the majority of the screen time in episode 1 which if you remember in season 1 episode 1 it wasn't all lee, all the characters all had time to develop a decent amount of time to the player, season 2s didn't because Clementine took the most game time up then Kenny came and they had no hope.
i tihk that was the thing, Jane wasn;t trustworthy, to many Luke was, so when it happened, people were more angry at him then her, and i even think some chose to forgive him because they felt the writing was poor and didn't want to believe it.