Hmmm that would have been interesting during the first year...but almost 4 years in...would be hard to even justify..well there is always meth and shrooms lol.
Hmmm that would have been interesting during the first year...but almost 4 years in...would be hard to even justify..well there is always meth and shrooms lol.
I have faith in Telltale that they'll make an awesome story. I really would love episode 1 to be a flashback and explain what's going on with Kenny or Jane. I hope that he/she is being held by the Caprikorn guys and aren't just killed off on in a 2 minute flashback. That would really, really suck.
You know what'd actually be more interesting? What if Clementine actually Discovered Lily's dead body sometime during the Season.
Or bett… moreer yet, what if Javier found the body and had a Decision to hide it before Clementine discovered it, or let her see it.
Now THAT would create some tension, and a bit of Nostalgia.
I'm just tired of seeing people so crystal clear as the good guy (Omid/Luke), hero (Lee/Clementine), bad guy (St. Johns/Troy), or villain (The Stranger, Carver). I know usually in stories you want to make it clear who the audience should root for and against, but I think we've ascended to a point of storytelling where we go against that ideal; that's why it's normal for people to like a villain more than the hero sometimes.
That's sorta what I expected from Season 2 to a certain degree. I'd say that Jane and Arvo got pretty dang close, but everything else was pretty clear cut.
I believe that it's ultimately the player's responsibility to rid themself of these preconceived classifications, as long as Telltale also sets it up in the first place.
I'm just tired of seeing people so crystal clear as the good guy (Omid/Luke), hero (Lee/Clementine), bad guy (St. Johns/Troy), or villain (T… morehe Stranger, Carver). I know usually in stories you want to make it clear who the audience should root for and against, but I think we've ascended to a point of storytelling where we go against that ideal; that's why it's normal for people to like a villain more than the hero sometimes.
That's sorta what I expected from Season 2 to a certain degree. I'd say that Jane and Arvo got pretty dang close, but everything else was pretty clear cut.
I believe that it's ultimately the player's responsibility to rid themself of these preconceived classifications, as long as Telltale also sets it up in the first place.
Players accept and view these characters as ambiguous.
In this case, it is ultimately our own responsability to accept that characters are morally ambiguous, though there are biased people who would only consider the protagonist and allies' positive traits and the antagonists' defects.
Oh, okay. I definitely believe that a good guy's positive traits should be what makes them a hero in the end and a bad guy's negative traits should be what makes them a villain. Outside of that, there's plenty of room to make a good guy not the most righteous and the bad guy less despicable for the sake of making them more multi-layered characters.
For example sake, Luke should've had more moments where he got to save the day on his own as well as moments where he isn't the nicest, to show that just because he's trying to do the right thing doesn't mean he isn't capable of having bad moments on his own. Conversely, Carver should've had his history with Luke, Alvin, Carlos, and Rebecca explained so as to make it clear that while he is ultimately the evil one, he does have at least a few legitimate reasons to be so angry towards them and he really was doing what he decided was best for his community outside of this.
* Telltale writes morally ambiguous characters.
* Players accept and view these characters as ambiguous.
In this case, it is ultima… moretely our own responsability to accept that characters are morally ambiguous, though there are biased people who would only consider the protagonist and allies' positive traits and the antagonists' defects.
I view both of your examples as effective, but I like to play with moral boundaries further than that, and to throw the terms "good," "evil," "heroes" and "villians" out of the window!
I want the characters in the fiction that I consume to feel authentic, just like the people who we encounter on a daily basis, so that we can successfully empathize with every single one of them, even if to varying degrees. It's why I am in the early stages of producing fiction of my own; I promise, @Lilacsbloom, that my current writing style is much more vivid than what you read a couple of months ago.
Oh, okay. I definitely believe that a good guy's positive traits should be what makes them a hero in the end and a bad guy's negative traits… more should be what makes them a villain. Outside of that, there's plenty of room to make a good guy not the most righteous and the bad guy less despicable for the sake of making them more multi-layered characters.
For example sake, Luke should've had more moments where he got to save the day on his own as well as moments where he isn't the nicest, to show that just because he's trying to do the right thing doesn't mean he isn't capable of having bad moments on his own. Conversely, Carver should've had his history with Luke, Alvin, Carlos, and Rebecca explained so as to make it clear that while he is ultimately the evil one, he does have at least a few legitimate reasons to be so angry towards them and he really was doing what he decided was best for his community outside of this.
Clem and Javier setting up some kind of camp or community like Howe's or Wellington. Them being the big bosses of such a big survivalcamp. That would be so cool, because Clem can actually make it work.
Been away for about a week or so, just saw all the notifications. Looking forward to reading all of this, thanks again, everyone. Also let's hope we get some season 3 news by next week, it's already 11/11!
Agreed, Rhys. As long as she doesn't have character degrowth (couldn't think of a better term); like Carol in the show was starting to revert back into weakness. It's a weak spot to me to see a character going through an emotional breakdown, but there still needs to be progression.
Clementine's past catching up to her, emotionally. If she fell apart from all the shit she's done and saw slowly during the season would be interesting for me.
I want to see Clementine have a love interest, it'll be cute and awkward like Northstars said, but fun nonetheless. Like being a father/mother and seeing your kid finally go on their first date. It'll also spark hope that maybe she can live a normal life (as normal as it ever could be all things considering). As long as it isn't forced, though! There should be an option to avoid it in case people really don't want that in their gameplay.
I remember a while back there was a thread about Clementine getting a love interest and a lot of people I think were against it. But I would… more actually be really interested to see a relationship of some sort to develop between Clementine and someone else. It doesn't have to be a big deal, maybe just subtle lines and eye contact at first, and if you want it to, you can have it develop further.
How old is Clementine now? 13? 14? It's unrealistic to think that, yeah even though it's a zombie apocalypse etc, Clementine wouldn't be thinking about romance or love. How many couples has she been surrounded by? There was Lee and Carley kinda (I'm sure Clementine picked up on Lee's feelings for her), Kenny and Katjaa, Omid and Christa, Rebecca and Alvin, Matthew and Walter, Kenny and Sarita, hints of Luke and Bonnie and Luke and Jane... I just think a small crush would be quite sweet and allow Clementine to be a little innocent, naive kid for a while.
Outstanding topic for a thread, Bundy!
The most recent decision I could think of is the decision to steal from Arvo; medicine is great… more, but you are taking away from someone else who needs them. But with that said, I don't want it to be as clear as that. Obviously the right thing to do would be to NOT steal from someone, right? So people who want to keep playing on the good and straight line of morality, they won't steal. I want decisions that blur those lines. (…)
I will suggest a simple scenario that I believe accomplishes this.
Away from the junk yard that he calls home, Javier is scavenging abandoned buildings to find anything of use; sister mentioned that she could use a notepad and color pencils, and mom asked for boxes of cigarettes if he could get his hands on them.
The branches of the thicket scrape his face as he kneels.
She must be in her thirties, the woman with the revolver; her greaseless blonde … [view original content]
For you DabigRG
This is done in the first person.
The smell of burning buildings and flesh still hangs in the air.
Two days sinc… moree we were attacked by raiders.
It was not easy, it is never easy when your opponents are humans like us.
Looking at my hands, my trigger finger still aches from all the shooting.
I cannot believe they drove a herd of walkers through our gates just to distract us from their raid on the children's center.
All around the remains of the center there are so many of our people just standing, dazed, their children gone..taken by those people.
A tear tries to roll down my cheek, wipe it away. I am thirteen and a half...I have known for awhile now that I probably wont see my next birthday.
Why should I, hell sometimes I feel that I do not deserve too.
I miss Lee, I miss him a lot. He died to save me, he died because I believed a man that said he had my parents.
I sit myself down and lean a… [view original content]
I want to see Clementine have a love interest, it'll be cute and awkward like Northstars said, but fun nonetheless. Like being a father/moth… moreer and seeing your kid finally go on their first date. It'll also spark hope that maybe she can live a normal life (as normal as it ever could be all things considering). As long as it isn't forced, though! There should be an option to avoid it in case people really don't want that in their gameplay.
Okay I think I got something, er, things. Been pondering on these ones for a little, and I know I'm not using them for anything I'm writing so I've got no problem sharing these as being things I'd like to see, even if it's not in Season 3. The clips and such are the closest examples in other video games series I could find without delving into real-life events, which for some of these I didn't really feel comfortable doing.
Walker Arena
You know how Minecraft Story Mode had that Gladiator vibe in the finale of the Adventure Pack? Yeah, not quite like that. But, the concept is of having to fight walkers against a person's will in a type of arena or an enclosed area, either with spectators, or just one or a few psychos involved [or just a bunch of assholes] who gets kicks out of watching people suffer. Because that's probably something that could happen, given the ZA would be a playground for a serial killer, because nobody's going to stop them capturing and killing people for fun…but all the same, avoiding the torture porn thing, because Saw gives me PTSD.
So aside from the QTE business that would be involved with this, the player choice is them being given the option of what type of weapon the character uses to take on the walkers, such as a pipe, a knife or an axe [basically no guns or spears that can be turned on the ones that trapped them in there] which would alter the fighting styles on how the undead are killed. So it’s either game over if the person is bitten, or they die being munched up by walkers. Also if somebody else is in there with them, it could be a player’s decision on morality if they choose to help that stranger/strangers or sacrifice them to the dead to remain alive, and then getting gut punched when later you meet a relative of that person you off'd and they ask 'hey have you seen my dad?' and you either tell them to truth or right out lie to them and live with the guilt .
Other ways an idea like this could screw with a character’s head, is if somebody or people they know, either friends, family or a loved ones are zombified and are in that arena with them, and now they have to off them. But overall there may be no end game, that they’re forced to stay in there like penned up animals until they’re as good as dead, resulting in them needing to find a means of escape.
[7:30 Minutes in and onwards]
Wildlife Threats
[17:30 Minutes in]
We all know about threats posed by people and the undead, but animals can be just as problematic. Something like a snake bite, or an allergic reaction to a bee sting could be life-threatening even if the injured person is in a community. And say they aren’t, would they have to go to a community begging for antivenom or an epinephrine shot if they even have any? What if a player’s efforts to go through all that was all for nothing and on returning the snake bite victim was already dead? Or what if you’re not fast enough in your decisions or making the right calls that their fate is determinant? Maybe the characters have to go to a hospital to find what they need, or right out steal from some group with the repercussions occurring later altering depending on the course of action you took or if you killed anybody to get those meds.
Perhaps there’s a scenario where a character needs to get somewhere or some supplies, but some feral dogs or wolves are preventing them doing so, and they don’t have guns or they’re limited in their ammo use against them. Maybe they don’t want to harm those animals and the player has the option of distracting or getting rid of the pack by more peaceful methods that don’t result in death. Or could it be the characters are starving and don’t have any choice but to kill dogs/wolves in order to get a meal much like the show did with the feral dogs. Maybe the characters come across a cat and her litter of kittens, and the player is tested with ‘can you be so cruel?’ because somebody might be sick or starving and if you don’t get them the food and energy they need, they might not pull through, that or can you bring yourself to let them go hungry just to spare the adorable little kittens?
Or maybe we could skip all that dramatic stuff and have Clementine and Javier run for their lives from a scary bear, because that’s some good action shit I wanna see!:
Fallen Community
The concept of finding a community that’s fallen either from bandit attacks or walkers could be equivalent of being in the aftermath of a natural disaster, or real-life tragedies where large groups have been massacred. Walking upon the site of where a large loss of life could have a really big emotional impact, especially if the characters have been there prior and feel both mortified and powerless to have been unable to help anybody or prevent it, or maybe their own actions elsewhere inadvertently caused for the community to fall.
So very much like what we saw with Michonne on the boat with the people Randall killed, but on a much, much bigger scale and perhaps even a connection to the those at the community where the characters spoke to people there, met families or kids, and then having to see those same people dead or as walkers, children as walkers, or a baby in its cot having turned because nobody was around to take care of it. Howe’s hardware store was pretty messy when Clementine and Jane returned there in one of Season 2 endings, so imagine that from somewhere that left a positive impact, where you thought that might be hope for those people. It would be horrible, especially if they'd only said goodbye to the place a few hours or a few days before.
The worst part of that would be trying to find somebody alive, or someone the characters had a connection with, and either finding them dead or as a walker, or not finding them at all, and the characters being devastated because of not knowing what’s happened to them, and if they’ll ever be seen again…but of course they will, just like Christa dang it! T.T
Raptors
Imagine how amazing it would be to watch Clementine and Javier ride into battle on the backs of raptors. Clearly if the undead are rising, then dinosaurs can come back from extinction and we can finally get ourselves some motherfudging raptors.
Something better then the player being asked to trust a psychotic redneck whose had the people he's "loved" die multiple times and an almost exact replica of previous character development. And possibly better then having an infant violently contort the entire ongoing story all the while being used as a prop to try to get people to feel any sense of vain hope.
Nice ideas! Game of Thrones (TTG) actually had a sequence where you're fighting in an arena. You get to choose between several weapons. Maybe we'll see something like that again in TWD, but even better.
Okay I think I got something, er, things. Been pondering on these ones for a little, and I know I'm not using them for anything I'm writing … moreso I've got no problem sharing these as being things I'd like to see, even if it's not in Season 3. The clips and such are the closest examples in other video games series I could find without delving into real-life events, which for some of these I didn't really feel comfortable doing.
Walker Arena
You know how Minecraft Story Mode had that Gladiator vibe in the finale of the Adventure Pack? Yeah, not quite like that. But, the concept is of having to fight walkers against a person's will in a type of arena or an enclosed area, either with spectators, or just one or a few psychos involved [or just a bunch of assholes] who gets kicks out of watching people suffer. Because that's probably something that could happen, given the ZA would be a playground for a serial killer, because nobody's going to sto… [view original content]
I'd love to see Clementine interact with other survivors of her age group. Just a contrast between her and them. I was hoping Becca and Clementine would have scenes together, but the 400 Days characters were pretty much swept under a rug. Now I'm not saying I want Clementine to be bullied, but just interactions with other kids her age; we can either befriend them or not. We've seen Clementine do a lot of adult things, but rarely see her just be a kid, imo.
Nice ideas! Game of Thrones (TTG) actually had a sequence where you're fighting in an arena. You get to choose between several weapons. Maybe we'll see something like that again in TWD, but even better.
Okay I think I got something, er, things. Been pondering on these ones for a little, and I know I'm not using them for anything I'm writing … moreso I've got no problem sharing these as being things I'd like to see, even if it's not in Season 3. The clips and such are the closest examples in other video games series I could find without delving into real-life events, which for some of these I didn't really feel comfortable doing.
Walker Arena
You know how Minecraft Story Mode had that Gladiator vibe in the finale of the Adventure Pack? Yeah, not quite like that. But, the concept is of having to fight walkers against a person's will in a type of arena or an enclosed area, either with spectators, or just one or a few psychos involved [or just a bunch of assholes] who gets kicks out of watching people suffer. Because that's probably something that could happen, given the ZA would be a playground for a serial killer, because nobody's going to sto… [view original content]
Comments
Ok, you go ahead, dont want it to go back to normal already ,:D
Sorry, I wasnt sure what you meant youd trantum over, or if you meant tantrum.
Not sure if you liked it or not lol.
I'd like to see a character struggle with drug addiction after all the drugs are gone.
Hmmm that would have been interesting during the first year...but almost 4 years in...would be hard to even justify..well there is always meth and shrooms lol.
Oh, I do! I was just highlighting by referencing Max Payne 2.
omg I loved watching my brother play that game and the first one.
True. There might be some alcohol or cigarettes left though maybe, and you could create a similar arc with those.
I have faith in Telltale that they'll make an awesome story. I really would love episode 1 to be a flashback and explain what's going on with Kenny or Jane. I hope that he/she is being held by the Caprikorn guys and aren't just killed off on in a 2 minute flashback. That would really, really suck.
You know what'd actually be more interesting? What if Clementine actually Discovered Lily's dead body sometime during the Season.
Or better yet, what if Javier found the body and had a Decision to hide it before Clementine discovered it, or let her see it.
Now THAT would create some tension, and a bit of Nostalgia.
How would Javier know how Lilly was? Or even what she looked like.
That's sorta what I expected from Season 2 to a certain degree. I'd say that Jane and Arvo got pretty dang close, but everything else was pretty clear cut.
I believe that it's ultimately the player's responsibility to rid themself of these preconceived classifications, as long as Telltale also sets it up in the first place.
I honestly had a hard time getting what you mean due to the Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness. Wanna clear things up a bit?
Telltale writes morally ambiguous characters.
Players accept and view these characters as ambiguous.
In this case, it is ultimately our own responsability to accept that characters are morally ambiguous, though there are biased people who would only consider the protagonist and allies' positive traits and the antagonists' defects.
Oh, okay. I definitely believe that a good guy's positive traits should be what makes them a hero in the end and a bad guy's negative traits should be what makes them a villain. Outside of that, there's plenty of room to make a good guy not the most righteous and the bad guy less despicable for the sake of making them more multi-layered characters.
For example sake, Luke should've had more moments where he got to save the day on his own as well as moments where he isn't the nicest, to show that just because he's trying to do the right thing doesn't mean he isn't capable of having bad moments on his own. Conversely, Carver should've had his history with Luke, Alvin, Carlos, and Rebecca explained so as to make it clear that while he is ultimately the evil one, he does have at least a few legitimate reasons to be so angry towards them and he really was doing what he decided was best for his community outside of this.
I view both of your examples as effective, but I like to play with moral boundaries further than that, and to throw the terms "good," "evil," "heroes" and "villians" out of the window!
I want the characters in the fiction that I consume to feel authentic, just like the people who we encounter on a daily basis, so that we can successfully empathize with every single one of them, even if to varying degrees. It's why I am in the early stages of producing fiction of my own; I promise, @Lilacsbloom, that my current writing style is much more vivid than what you read a couple of months ago.
Clem and Javier setting up some kind of camp or community like Howe's or Wellington. Them being the big bosses of such a big survivalcamp. That would be so cool, because Clem can actually make it work.
Clementine would've obviously told him, She should have at some point.
Been away for about a week or so, just saw all the notifications. Looking forward to reading all of this, thanks again, everyone. Also let's hope we get some season 3 news by next week, it's already 11/11!
Agreed, Rhys. As long as she doesn't have character degrowth (couldn't think of a better term); like Carol in the show was starting to revert back into weakness. It's a weak spot to me to see a character going through an emotional breakdown, but there still needs to be progression.
I want to see Clementine have a love interest, it'll be cute and awkward like Northstars said, but fun nonetheless. Like being a father/mother and seeing your kid finally go on their first date. It'll also spark hope that maybe she can live a normal life (as normal as it ever could be all things considering). As long as it isn't forced, though! There should be an option to avoid it in case people really don't want that in their gameplay.
That was pretty good, nice work.
That was awesome.
But I'm not sure if I'd like the determinant character from season 2 to die that early...
Just not Clementine, please.
Thanks!
Yes! The animals are the antagonists.
The goats saw the apocalypse as the perfect opportunity to get revenge on the humans for farming them for so long, and now they are farming humans...
Oh my god, replace the walkers with killer goats and this game would be funny as hell. It'd be Black Sheep, but with goats:
This exists...
There's a film about killer goats!? o_o
Yes!! I totally agree!
Okay I think I got something, er, things. Been pondering on these ones for a little, and I know I'm not using them for anything I'm writing so I've got no problem sharing these as being things I'd like to see, even if it's not in Season 3. The clips and such are the closest examples in other video games series I could find without delving into real-life events, which for some of these I didn't really feel comfortable doing.
Walker Arena
You know how Minecraft Story Mode had that Gladiator vibe in the finale of the Adventure Pack? Yeah, not quite like that. But, the concept is of having to fight walkers against a person's will in a type of arena or an enclosed area, either with spectators, or just one or a few psychos involved [or just a bunch of assholes] who gets kicks out of watching people suffer. Because that's probably something that could happen, given the ZA would be a playground for a serial killer, because nobody's going to stop them capturing and killing people for fun…but all the same, avoiding the torture porn thing, because Saw gives me PTSD.
So aside from the QTE business that would be involved with this, the player choice is them being given the option of what type of weapon the character uses to take on the walkers, such as a pipe, a knife or an axe [basically no guns or spears that can be turned on the ones that trapped them in there] which would alter the fighting styles on how the undead are killed. So it’s either game over if the person is bitten, or they die being munched up by walkers. Also if somebody else is in there with them, it could be a player’s decision on morality if they choose to help that stranger/strangers or sacrifice them to the dead to remain alive, and then getting gut punched when later you meet a relative of that person you off'd and they ask 'hey have you seen my dad?' and you either tell them to truth or right out lie to them and live with the guilt .
Other ways an idea like this could screw with a character’s head, is if somebody or people they know, either friends, family or a loved ones are zombified and are in that arena with them, and now they have to off them. But overall there may be no end game, that they’re forced to stay in there like penned up animals until they’re as good as dead, resulting in them needing to find a means of escape.
[7:30 Minutes in and onwards]
Wildlife Threats
[17:30 Minutes in]
We all know about threats posed by people and the undead, but animals can be just as problematic. Something like a snake bite, or an allergic reaction to a bee sting could be life-threatening even if the injured person is in a community. And say they aren’t, would they have to go to a community begging for antivenom or an epinephrine shot if they even have any? What if a player’s efforts to go through all that was all for nothing and on returning the snake bite victim was already dead? Or what if you’re not fast enough in your decisions or making the right calls that their fate is determinant? Maybe the characters have to go to a hospital to find what they need, or right out steal from some group with the repercussions occurring later altering depending on the course of action you took or if you killed anybody to get those meds.
Perhaps there’s a scenario where a character needs to get somewhere or some supplies, but some feral dogs or wolves are preventing them doing so, and they don’t have guns or they’re limited in their ammo use against them. Maybe they don’t want to harm those animals and the player has the option of distracting or getting rid of the pack by more peaceful methods that don’t result in death. Or could it be the characters are starving and don’t have any choice but to kill dogs/wolves in order to get a meal much like the show did with the feral dogs. Maybe the characters come across a cat and her litter of kittens, and the player is tested with ‘can you be so cruel?’ because somebody might be sick or starving and if you don’t get them the food and energy they need, they might not pull through, that or can you bring yourself to let them go hungry just to spare the adorable little kittens?
Or maybe we could skip all that dramatic stuff and have Clementine and Javier run for their lives from a scary bear, because that’s some good action shit I wanna see!:
Fallen Community
The concept of finding a community that’s fallen either from bandit attacks or walkers could be equivalent of being in the aftermath of a natural disaster, or real-life tragedies where large groups have been massacred. Walking upon the site of where a large loss of life could have a really big emotional impact, especially if the characters have been there prior and feel both mortified and powerless to have been unable to help anybody or prevent it, or maybe their own actions elsewhere inadvertently caused for the community to fall.
So very much like what we saw with Michonne on the boat with the people Randall killed, but on a much, much bigger scale and perhaps even a connection to the those at the community where the characters spoke to people there, met families or kids, and then having to see those same people dead or as walkers, children as walkers, or a baby in its cot having turned because nobody was around to take care of it. Howe’s hardware store was pretty messy when Clementine and Jane returned there in one of Season 2 endings, so imagine that from somewhere that left a positive impact, where you thought that might be hope for those people. It would be horrible, especially if they'd only said goodbye to the place a few hours or a few days before.
The worst part of that would be trying to find somebody alive, or someone the characters had a connection with, and either finding them dead or as a walker, or not finding them at all, and the characters being devastated because of not knowing what’s happened to them, and if they’ll ever be seen again…but of course they will, just like Christa dang it! T.T
Raptors
Imagine how amazing it would be to watch Clementine and Javier ride into battle on the backs of raptors. Clearly if the undead are rising, then dinosaurs can come back from extinction and we can finally get ourselves some motherfudging raptors.
BRING ON THE RAPTOR WARS!
Something better then the player being asked to trust a psychotic redneck whose had the people he's "loved" die multiple times and an almost exact replica of previous character development. And possibly better then having an infant violently contort the entire ongoing story all the while being used as a prop to try to get people to feel any sense of vain hope.
Nice ideas! Game of Thrones (TTG) actually had a sequence where you're fighting in an arena. You get to choose between several weapons. Maybe we'll see something like that again in TWD, but even better.
I'd love to see Clementine interact with other survivors of her age group. Just a contrast between her and them. I was hoping Becca and Clementine would have scenes together, but the 400 Days characters were pretty much swept under a rug. Now I'm not saying I want Clementine to be bullied, but just interactions with other kids her age; we can either befriend them or not. We've seen Clementine do a lot of adult things, but rarely see her just be a kid, imo.
Luke back
I need to take a look at that. Do you remember what episode it featured? o.o
I believe it is the fifth episode.
I really like the dangerous wildlife idea, even though we've already had a fight with a dog, I think it could work.
I really like all the ideas here. Err, except for the raptors...
Luke is dead. It's very unlikely he could survived a walker pulling him in cold water.