There is a underlying tone in her character that is hard not to notice. I don't recognize parts of her character, but it has been two years … moreafter all.
I'm going to hold out hope that they take their time to write more elements into her character now though. Three episodes to go..
I guess you could justify siding with Clementine right after the moment she killed that guy is because she knows the way to the junkyard and is the only person willing to help find your family. Javier dosnt need any more setbacks and Clem getting punished wouldn't do well for Javier's situation. Obviously it didn't work out that way, but that's only looking back in hindsight.
After spending so long loving Clem, and waiting for her return in a new game, I can't help it. It was like the first play-through of S2 seeing Kenny in the lodge, I felt some weird "connection" to his character DESPITE how much he bothered me in S1 and butted heads with Lee.
That being said, though, I have played through the first two episodes three times now and switched up my possibilities for first instinct, siding/protecting Clem, and then playing as Javi, and I don't know, I like it better when Clem softens up a bit for a moment. Makes me nostalgic or somethin' in my old age.
If you dislike her, or never felt attached to her in the first place, then of course you have no idea how it feels to be overprotective of her, because you don't feel inclined to do so.
I said in the thread I do love her and I feel attached to her, but "is not my call", is Javier. And, when I play as Javier, I'm not attached to her, cuz we just met. Is one thing how I feel, is another how Javier feels. I don't know if this make any sense. lol
I mean, can you blame us? Like you said, in season 1 you did everything to protect her and teach her how to survive and in season 2 we get t… moreo further shape her into our own Clementine. Can you blame people for wanting to protect her at all times? For being attached to her? Specially since she's the only old character in a group of new ones. I agree that it doesn't make sense for Javier to choose Clem over his family but as a player, it's hard to ignore the fact that you watched that girl grow and know what she's been through and want her to be safe. If you dislike her, or never felt attached to her in the first place, then of course you have no idea how it feels to be overprotective of her, because you don't feel inclined to do so. I don't feel like this ruins the game for me. It is a bit frustrating in a sense, because I know that in all choices that will involve Clem and other characters, I will go for Clem immediately. But so far, choosing… [view original content]
I think telltale thought that given how popular she was in season 1 and how much positive feedback she got, they thought putting her as the player character for season 2 would (i know, it might sound foolish) be bigger then season 1 because you always try to top the original rarely happens though. And even though reviews were still good, it didn't get the sort of feedback season 1 got and there were people who didn't like her as the player character and felt they changed her personality from season 1 to a more colder version and her apparent strength for her age was unrealistic. So now, they've killed off Kenny and Jane and pretty much erased the last 2 seasons and Clementine has been reduced to a minor character who they've made into a girl who lies, and kills people in cold blood and tries to tell Javier to stay with her instead of his family in a selfish kind of way. It's too far gone to change her given her star power and you're right, if they try to, people are going to rebel and choose to side with her. Imagine if telltale decided to kill her off during the season. Man, wouldn;'t it be a scene on this forums once everyone found out. I wonder how the sales would go if they killed her off and they made a season 4.
Of course. She's a long standing staple in the series, trying to replace her and push her into the background after being MIA for over 2 yea… morers isn't suddenly going to make people care less about her and more about the new additions, that's just making it all the more difficult to find and connection to them. Especially when she's written as such a minor characters who's actions seem completely out of place with the one a lot of us looked after and shaped since the first game. They went out of their way to push #MyClementine as the theme in season 2, this is just an overall poor handling. If they're going to actively try to get me to dislike or distrust her character after all of that, it'll get to the point where my actions are out of spite towards the writers who thought this was a good idea.
Oh, that would just be anarchy lol. I want to think the first two episodes were what they were because of needing to establish Javier and his family as characters, and the storytelling is going to get a bit more diverse as the season rolls on, but with it stands right now the lack of emphasis on what we've experienced in favor of creating a new and disconnected experience is kind of making it difficult for me to form any connection to Javier and his plight. I can't speak for everyone who isn't too high on the season, but Javier its really not so much about me hating his new character as it is disinterest in him right now.
I think telltale thought that given how popular she was in season 1 and how much positive feedback she got, they thought putting her as the … moreplayer character for season 2 would (i know, it might sound foolish) be bigger then season 1 because you always try to top the original rarely happens though. And even though reviews were still good, it didn't get the sort of feedback season 1 got and there were people who didn't like her as the player character and felt they changed her personality from season 1 to a more colder version and her apparent strength for her age was unrealistic. So now, they've killed off Kenny and Jane and pretty much erased the last 2 seasons and Clementine has been reduced to a minor character who they've made into a girl who lies, and kills people in cold blood and tries to tell Javier to stay with her instead of his family in a selfish kind of way. It's too far gone to change her given her star power and you're right, if… [view original content]
Can i ask, what is it about Javier that makes you not interested? You said lack of emphasis to what we've experienced before, but is just Javier that's not working for you? TNF's new characters or the story? Im not mad, im just curious as to someone's reason why.
Oh, that would just be anarchy lol. I want to think the first two episodes were what they were because of needing to establish Javier and hi… mores family as characters, and the storytelling is going to get a bit more diverse as the season rolls on, but with it stands right now the lack of emphasis on what we've experienced in favor of creating a new and disconnected experience is kind of making it difficult for me to form any connection to Javier and his plight. I can't speak for everyone who isn't too high on the season, but Javier its really not so much about me hating his new character as it is disinterest in him right now.
I guess you could justify siding with Clementine right after the moment she killed that guy is because she knows the way to the junkyard and… more is the only person willing to help find your family. Javier dosnt need any more setbacks and Clem getting punished wouldn't do well for Javier's situation. Obviously it didn't work out that way, but that's only looking back in hindsight.
I absolutely understand where you're coming from and before I read your thread, I hadn't even considered how.. reckless and almost OOC (for a newly introduced character in the zombie apocalypse held at gunpoint when first meeting Clem) to try and cater to Clem's safety over the safety of the rest of Javi's new group. So I appreciate the perspective! Might have to play it another time with this more in mind.
I understand. The thing is: Clem knew Kenny. They spent a lot of time together, they started that shit together. So is justified.
Javi ne… morever met Clem untill the moment she threatens and robb him. So side with her is kinda... weird. I don't know.
But I understand cuz I like Clem as well, and want what is best for her.
Clementine assures herself that you cant trust people and Tripp has a slighlt attitude towards you and Clem, but both get over it. The chances they find out the truth any other way would be impossible. Lying is bad obviously, but to survive or it's justified/for the greater good (I know completely subjective) it should be considered.
I thought of that, but I don't know. Lying to strangers doesn't seem like a good deal to me.
Only Clem treat you different if you lie, or the others members of Prescott as well?
Clementine assures herself that you cant trust people and Tripp has a slighlt attitude towards you and Clem, but both get over it. The chanc… morees they find out the truth any other way would be impossible. Lying is bad obviously, but to survive or it's justified/for the greater good (I know completely subjective) it should be considered.
Things Javi knew about Clementine at the time: She had a chance to kill him, but she didn't. She could have stolen the chocolate, but when Javi said it was for his niece, she didn't. She clearly can take care of herself. She knew where the Junkyard was and how to get there.
Things Javi knew about the people in the community at the time: They were people living in a community.
Exactly. I didn't knew anything about the people in the community... If they are ok, if they are not. But I guessed they weren't nice, so telling the truth was the smart move for Javi. I don't know. lol I just couldn't lie in that situation.
Things Javi knew about Clementine at the time: She had a chance to kill him, but she didn't. She could have stolen the chocolate, but when J… moreavi said it was for his niece, she didn't. She clearly can take care of herself. She knew where the Junkyard was and how to get there.
Things Javi knew about the people in the community at the time: They were people living in a community.
I get what you're trying to say but the thing is, Javier is you. Why would I play the game thinking "what would Javier want" if I'm him and he is supposed to be my character? My Javier cares about his family obviously, but he also trusts Clem and wants her to be part of the group. And like I said, so far my decisions to help Clem seemed reasonable because the choices were always tied to himself and/or his family and their safety too, not just Clem's.
If you dislike her, or never felt attached to her in the first place, then of course you have no idea how it feels to be overprotective of h… moreer, because you don't feel inclined to do so.
I said in the thread I do love her and I feel attached to her, but "is not my call", is Javier. And, when I play as Javier, I'm not attached to her, cuz we just met. Is one thing how I feel, is another how Javier feels. I don't know if this make any sense. lol
I think you missed the point. At that point, Clem showed that she was a decent person and even trusted Javier (by taking his binds off) and she was valuable to him because she was going to take him back to the junkyard. In the meantime, you knew nothing about the people in the community (imagine what they could do to her if they were bad people and you would throw her under the bus). So in that scenario it makes sense to side with her. If nothing else, then because you need her to find your family. I sided with her mainly because the guy attacked her and Javier in the first place and he sold her ammo that didn't work properly which also put their lives at risk before. I wouldn't choose to just kill the guy, and Clem also didn't, it was an accident. So there were multiple reasons to cover for Clem in that situation. And it's not lying, not entirely. What Javi says it's the truth, the guy was crazy and did attack them and almost took his eye off.
Exactly. I didn't knew anything about the people in the community... If they are ok, if they are not. But I guessed they weren't nice, so telling the truth was the smart move for Javi. I don't know. lol I just couldn't lie in that situation.
Hmmm... I guess the overall presentation? I don't think it would have compromised Javiers story if the first episode would have spent more time with both of them, and been a decent length. Javier at the start of the apocalypse for the opening flashback. 2 years later, Clementine in whichever ending she ends up with, hopefully more than a 5 minute write off scene like we got, then to the present with Javier.
We can get the introduction going all the way back to the beginning, give us more of a follow up on the previous season, something more than a quick QTE scene, it at least establishes the new character while also giving a sense of what's happened since we last played. As it's presented now, its he's being pushed into the story while she's relegated to more of an "Well, she's still in there" character. They went less with integrating Javier and his family into the game, and more with just outright replacing the previous characters and by extent, burying all that history.
Can i ask, what is it about Javier that makes you not interested? You said lack of emphasis to what we've experienced before, but is just Ja… morevier that's not working for you? TNF's new characters or the story? Im not mad, im just curious as to someone's reason why.
Don't know how Jesus will be in the game, but I also didn't put cuffs on him, because I knew him from the show. I still felt uneasy though. Didn't know, If I could trust him.
I did back up Clem in that situation but none of my choices will have bias toward Clementine. The minute it gave me the option to leave with my family i took it. Yeah, i would have liked to bury Mari but i also still have a nephew and sister in law/love interest to take care of. Barring David, i'll always choose my family over Clem.
Agreed, my inter voice, was that of Lee saying" The fuck's wrong with you?". The whole seen reminded me of the"Put the Gun down Bitch" out come. I'm a Clem fan. A keeper of the faith as it were. But this scene is'nt bad writing. It clearly shows who Clem is becomeing as a person. Like Kenny, Jane or Lee. She is reactionary when put under threat of death like Kenny. She has Jane's trite way of proving a point. And the same imposeing manner as Lee. But she's a teenage girl who's lost everything and everyone she even barely cares for. Most of whom died to keep her alive. Trust won't come easy for her. The scene works!
I agree and I thought that Clementine was tactless and incompetent in both situations. Killing that man and almost getting herself thrown ou… moret and telling Javier she was part of the other crew. She should have listened to the advice she was given. Kenny's style was always "don't trust people fully if you don't really know them and they aren't going to ride for you". He might not have told her that flat out but that was always his philosophy. Jane always told her not to get too comfortable in big groups like that.
Something about Clementine seems off anyway. I can't really explain it. Maybe it's just that she went from a deep character in deep character driven games to a side character in action driven games.
I did back up Clem in that situation but none of my choices will have bias toward Clementine. The minute it gave me the option to leave with… more my family i took it. Yeah, i would have liked to bury Mari but i also still have a nephew and sister in law/love interest to take care of. Barring David, i'll always choose my family over Clem.
The biggest difference is probably not being able to bury your niece. If you go back with the family it's assumed that her body was left there. You can then either keep the walkman to yourself or give it to Gabe instead of burying it with her.
The biggest difference is probably not being able to bury your niece. If you go back with the family it's assumed that her body was left there. You can then either keep the walkman to yourself or give it to Gabe instead of burying it with her.
Honestly I was with Clem the whole time. No matter what she did I still backed her.Even though thats not really fair but i cant let anything happen to her.
What if Clem is killed off in Episode 4 or 5?I wouldnt be able to take it and now I have the fear that they are going to kill her off since in the picture for Episode 5 it's only Javier and no sign of Clem.
What does everyone else think on this matter?Is Clem going to be killed off?
Why would I play the game thinking "what would Javier want" if I'm him and he is supposed to be my character?
It's complicated. It's not about playing thinking what would Javier want, but what would I want if I was Javier. And, by his point of view, trusting Clem in that beginning sounded far fetched. For me, at least. I try to forget everthing I played in the 2 seasons, even though it's hard, so I can make Javier decide, not my Season 1 and Season 2 brain who want to protect Clem at all costs.
And I think is fun that way. The dynamic between my Javi and Clem can be rough, and who knows, perhaps she even betray me for what I did (even though I doubt it. If she is going to betray us, it's going to happen no matter our choices). I would like to see that.
I get what you're trying to say but the thing is, Javier is you. Why would I play the game thinking "what would Javier want" if I'm him and … morehe is supposed to be my character? My Javier cares about his family obviously, but he also trusts Clem and wants her to be part of the group. And like I said, so far my decisions to help Clem seemed reasonable because the choices were always tied to himself and/or his family and their safety too, not just Clem's.
Sure, let's trust a girl who almost got us killed by cutting down a tree (which I don't really see Clem doing), threaten us, robbed us (she didn't take the chocolate, but took other stuff), shot a guy in cold blood even though she didn't mean it.
Seeing this by Javi's point of view, is REALLY hard trusting her. But we, as players, trust her. And people can deny all they want, but most will side with Clem for the fact she is Clem.
I think you missed the point. At that point, Clem showed that she was a decent person and even trusted Javier (by taking his binds off) and … moreshe was valuable to him because she was going to take him back to the junkyard. In the meantime, you knew nothing about the people in the community (imagine what they could do to her if they were bad people and you would throw her under the bus). So in that scenario it makes sense to side with her. If nothing else, then because you need her to find your family. I sided with her mainly because the guy attacked her and Javier in the first place and he sold her ammo that didn't work properly which also put their lives at risk before. I wouldn't choose to just kill the guy, and Clem also didn't, it was an accident. So there were multiple reasons to cover for Clem in that situation. And it's not lying, not entirely. What Javi says it's the truth, the guy was crazy and did attack them and almost took his eye off.
And, by his point of view, trusting Clem in that beginning sounded far fetched.
What's the difference between trusting Clem, a 13 year old kid, or trusting Eleanor or Tripp? It's like when you meet Jesus, Tripp says "I don't know, we just met this guy" and Clem says "We ALL just met" which is true. You just met those people and yet there they are, helping you. Is that not enough to trust them a little bit or at least not throw them under the bus?
And I also play the game thinking of what I would do if I was Javier. I covered for Clem because the guy was a dick and a crazy bastard that 1) put their lives at risk by giving her bad bullets and 2) tried to stab them. Maybe he didn't deserve to die, but what good would it do to sold out Clem? Specially when she was the one who was going to take Javier back to the junkyard? Like I said, if at that point you didn't care much for her, you should at least think about your family and how you are going to get to them. Obviously Tripp and Eleanor then offer to take you there but at that moment, Clem is your only shot.
Why would I play the game thinking "what would Javier want" if I'm him and he is supposed to be my character?
It's complicated. It's… more not about playing thinking what would Javier want, but what would I want if I was Javier. And, by his point of view, trusting Clem in that beginning sounded far fetched. For me, at least. I try to forget everthing I played in the 2 seasons, even though it's hard, so I can make Javier decide, not my Season 1 and Season 2 brain who want to protect Clem at all costs.
And I think is fun that way. The dynamic between my Javi and Clem can be rough, and who knows, perhaps she even betray me for what I did (even though I doubt it. If she is going to betray us, it's going to happen no matter our choices). I would like to see that.
Sure, let's trust a girl who almost got us killed by cutting down a tree (which I don't really see Clem doing)
She cut down the tree because she wanted to stop the car. Her plan wasn't to kill anyone.
threaten us
It's funny that you don't seem to want to trust her and yet you expect her to trust you? She's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, she was being careful.
robbed us (she didn't take the chocolate, but took other stuff)
Again, she's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, can you blame her? And she had the decency of not taking the chocolate bar.
shot a guy in cold blood even though she didn't mean it.
Yeah, she didn't mean it.
Seeing this by Javi's point of view, is REALLY hard trusting her. But we, as players, trust her. And people can deny all they want, but most will side with Clem for the fact she is Clem.
Well, obviously you have your mind set on it. So what's the point of even trying to discuss this with you if you can't seem to understand that, as Javier, it's not completely out of character to side with Clem. I've explained why in another comment but you don't seem to even consider what I said.
Sure, let's trust a girl who almost got us killed by cutting down a tree (which I don't really see Clem doing), threaten us, robbed us (she … moredidn't take the chocolate, but took other stuff), shot a guy in cold blood even though she didn't mean it.
Seeing this by Javi's point of view, is REALLY hard trusting her. But we, as players, trust her. And people can deny all they want, but most will side with Clem for the fact she is Clem.
I don't know. I don't know why people think that now they are in an outside position, and a more powerful person than Clementine, Javier must be Lee reincarnated. I get that we all have our stories with Clementine, but the "protect Clementine" game is over. Season 1: "Protect Clem"; Season 2: "Keep The Group Together"; S3/ANF: "Protect your Family".
It's extremely clear that Clementine can handle herself now. She's cunning, quick on her feet, and has become a much different person than we last saw her in Season 2. 2 years alone without any real friends or family can take a toll on someone. I guess that's why Clem is always a moody, dark teen this season. You can't stay the same person throughout 2 years in the apocalypse...
People of the forums, listen..: You can think what you want about Clem, and you can protect her if you want, but I just want to say that this friendship may not last. The season's end may have Clem and Javi part ways, in ANF, Clem isn't supposed to be the child in your care, she's the more capable survivor that tops Javier (from what I've seen). This may sound cheesy, . Don't underestimate Clementine.
Who said I trusted any of them? lol I just didn't want to take the blame for something I didn't do.
You just met those people and yet there they are, helping you. Is that not enough to trust them a little bit or at least not throw them under the bus?
That was one of my problems with the game. How in the hell people trust each other fully like, 24 knowing each other in the apocalypse? Don't make any sense to me.
The guy was crazy, but Clem was also being crazy at one point there. She should deal with the consequences of her actions, like all of us.
And, by his point of view, trusting Clem in that beginning sounded far fetched.
What's the difference between trusting Clem, a 13 ye… morear old kid, or trusting Eleanor or Tripp? It's like when you meet Jesus, Tripp says "I don't know, we just met this guy" and Clem says "We ALL just met" which is true. You just met those people and yet there they are, helping you. Is that not enough to trust them a little bit or at least not throw them under the bus?
And I also play the game thinking of what I would do if I was Javier. I covered for Clem because the guy was a dick and a crazy bastard that 1) put their lives at risk by giving her bad bullets and 2) tried to stab them. Maybe he didn't deserve to die, but what good would it do to sold out Clem? Specially when she was the one who was going to take Javier back to the junkyard? Like I said, if at that point you didn't care much for her, you should at least think about your family and how you… [view original content]
She cut down the tree because she wanted to stop the car. Her plan wasn't to kill anyone.
She is smart enough to know that should kill someone if the truck hit the tree.
It's funny that you don't seem to want to trust her and yet you expect her to trust you? She's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, she was being careful.
I don't expect her to trust me. I actually dislike how fast she trust us, since my Lee told her to never trust anyone.
Again, she's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, can you blame her? And she had the decency of not taking the chocolate bar.
Ok. Let that pass because of the chocolate.
I've explained why in another comment but you don't seem to even consider what I said.
I've consider it, I just don't buy it. (EDIT) And I say MOST of the people. Not everyone of them. You can be the excepction, but I think that is a fact.
Sure, let's trust a girl who almost got us killed by cutting down a tree (which I don't really see Clem doing)
She cut down the tree… more because she wanted to stop the car. Her plan wasn't to kill anyone.
threaten us
It's funny that you don't seem to want to trust her and yet you expect her to trust you? She's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, she was being careful.
robbed us (she didn't take the chocolate, but took other stuff)
Again, she's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, can you blame her? And she had the decency of not taking the chocolate bar.
shot a guy in cold blood even though she didn't mean it.
Yeah, she didn't mean it.
Seeing this by Javi's point of view, is REALLY hard trusting her. But we, as players, trust her. And people can deny all they want, but most will side with Clem for the fact she is Clem.
Well, obviously you have your mind set on it. So what's the point of even … [view original content]
We have raised her as our own daughter since she was 8-9 years old. And even though she can very obviously handle herself very well (trading batteries for bullets, scrounging up gear for herself, etc...) :
We still remember her as this funny child with a quirky sense of dress that's scared of spiders.
Don't assume people's reasons just because they made a decision different of your own.
Besides, every single major decision in the two episodes make sense for Javi, because all of them can be justified by him wanting to protect his family. Siding with Clem or not is a side effect.
The most obvious justifications for Javi's actions when he sides with Clem:
1 - Telling the lie to protect Clem. Javi wants her to take him to the junkyard so he can rescue his family.
2 - Trusting Clem and waiting until morning. Javi doesn't know anyone in the town so it makes sense for him to take the advice of the one person he exchanged more than a few words with so that he can go back to his family.
3 - Staying with Clem instead of going back with your family. On this case, Javi is emotionally unable to leave Mariana there like that and wants to shoot the people who killed her. It is a case of emotion over reason.
4 - Killing Conrad. That's the easiest one, since the threat to Javi's family is immediate and direct, with Conrad having Gabe at gunpoint.
I'm glad TellTale made sure that siding with Clem would make sense for the character and not only for the player. I think they did a good job.
She cut down the tree because she wanted to stop the car. Her plan wasn't to kill anyone.
She is smart enough to know that should ki… morell someone if the truck hit the tree.
It's funny that you don't seem to want to trust her and yet you expect her to trust you? She's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, she was being careful.
I don't expect her to trust me. I actually dislike how fast she trust us, since my Lee told her to never trust anyone.
Again, she's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, can you blame her? And she had the decency of not taking the chocolate bar.
Ok. Let that pass because of the chocolate.
I've explained why in another comment but you don't seem to even consider what I said.
I've consider it, I just don't buy it. (EDIT) And I say MOST of the people. Not everyone of them. You can be the excepction, but I think that is a fact.
I assume people's reasons based on what I see in the forums. I made this thread after reading others.
And I still don't get it why having Javier taking the blame and possibly having him be tortured, hurt or murdered can help Javier's family in any way. She can take him to de junkyard, but so can the people of the community, since it's obvious they know the region from the get go.
I don't think Telltale did a great job making decisions envolving Clem. Almost everyone will side with her, even though doesn't make sense trusting her. You think it does, I think it doesn't. People have a hard time trusting each other after months in that universe. And yet is justfied trusting Clem, even when we have all the reasons for not trusting her.
Don't assume people's reasons just because they made a decision different of your own.
Besides, every single major decision in the two ep… moreisodes make sense for Javi, because all of them can be justified by him wanting to protect his family. Siding with Clem or not is a side effect.
The most obvious justifications for Javi's actions when he sides with Clem:
1 - Telling the lie to protect Clem. Javi wants her to take him to the junkyard so he can rescue his family.
2 - Trusting Clem and waiting until morning. Javi doesn't know anyone in the town so it makes sense for him to take the advice of the one person he exchanged more than a few words with so that he can go back to his family.
3 - Staying with Clem instead of going back with your family. On this case, Javi is emotionally unable to leave Mariana there like that and wants to shoot the people who killed her. It is a case of emotion over reason.
4 - Killing Conrad. That's th… [view original content]
snicker this thread tho. Makes me even more upset that we can't play Clem. HOPEFULLY, this isn't really season 3, but a spinoff. But I wouldn't hold my breath.
As far as the topic. Like someone else said. We got so much of clem (even when we were playing Lee) that we almost would do anything for her. Yes even if it meant maybe not doing the "right" thing. Oh well. Not like it matters, Its not like most of your choices matter, which a shame. Clem will still act the way she acts and your outcome will probably be the same. If the protagonist changes again, Javier is a side character your choices will him won't matter either. So stupid.
Considering how much Clementine has changed in the past two years, just as she had changed in the exact same amount of years from between Season 1 and 2, she might not even be the same Clementine we knew and trusted anymore.
Perhaps Telltale's true goal in Season 3 is to test just how far we will go to give everything up for Clementine's well being, and then deconstruct the idea of sacrificing everything for the sake of one girl Javier barely even knows, to the point where the player pays dearly for it.
If Clem is killed, I am done with Telltale, I don't say that lightly with games. Creating a character you nurture for 2 seasons, just to eliminate is so sloppy and dumb I have no words. They obviously can't write stories as well as they think they can. Even for a Walking Dead character, killing someone off that had lots of fans this early is just not cool.
Honestly I was with Clem the whole time. No matter what she did I still backed her.Even though thats not really fair but i cant let anything… more happen to her.
What if Clem is killed off in Episode 4 or 5?I wouldnt be able to take it and now I have the fear that they are going to kill her off since in the picture for Episode 5 it's only Javier and no sign of Clem.
What does everyone else think on this matter?Is Clem going to be killed off?
I mean, sure, whatever works for you in the end. I mean, for me, it's the apocalypse, so all of this righteousness doesn't make much sense to me personally. Specially when that guy just tried to kill them both just like that. At that point, I may have only known Clem for a few hours, but I trusted her not because she is Clem but because of her actions that I already mentioned. I also know it was an accident. I wasn't going to throw a kid under the bus because of that, specially when I needed her to go back to my family.
Who said I trusted any of them? lol I just didn't want to take the blame for something I didn't do.
You just met those people and yet … morethere they are, helping you. Is that not enough to trust them a little bit or at least not throw them under the bus?
That was one of my problems with the game. How in the hell people trust each other fully like, 24 knowing each other in the apocalypse? Don't make any sense to me.
The guy was crazy, but Clem was also being crazy at one point there. She should deal with the consequences of her actions, like all of us.
Comments
We'll likely see more flashbacks to Clem's time with the New Frontier to expand on why she's become so hardened.
I guess you could justify siding with Clementine right after the moment she killed that guy is because she knows the way to the junkyard and is the only person willing to help find your family. Javier dosnt need any more setbacks and Clem getting punished wouldn't do well for Javier's situation. Obviously it didn't work out that way, but that's only looking back in hindsight.
After spending so long loving Clem, and waiting for her return in a new game, I can't help it. It was like the first play-through of S2 seeing Kenny in the lodge, I felt some weird "connection" to his character DESPITE how much he bothered me in S1 and butted heads with Lee.
That being said, though, I have played through the first two episodes three times now and switched up my possibilities for first instinct, siding/protecting Clem, and then playing as Javi, and I don't know, I like it better when Clem softens up a bit for a moment. Makes me nostalgic or somethin' in my old age.
I said in the thread I do love her and I feel attached to her, but "is not my call", is Javier. And, when I play as Javier, I'm not attached to her, cuz we just met. Is one thing how I feel, is another how Javier feels. I don't know if this make any sense. lol
I think telltale thought that given how popular she was in season 1 and how much positive feedback she got, they thought putting her as the player character for season 2 would (i know, it might sound foolish) be bigger then season 1 because you always try to top the original rarely happens though. And even though reviews were still good, it didn't get the sort of feedback season 1 got and there were people who didn't like her as the player character and felt they changed her personality from season 1 to a more colder version and her apparent strength for her age was unrealistic. So now, they've killed off Kenny and Jane and pretty much erased the last 2 seasons and Clementine has been reduced to a minor character who they've made into a girl who lies, and kills people in cold blood and tries to tell Javier to stay with her instead of his family in a selfish kind of way. It's too far gone to change her given her star power and you're right, if they try to, people are going to rebel and choose to side with her. Imagine if telltale decided to kill her off during the season. Man, wouldn;'t it be a scene on this forums once everyone found out. I wonder how the sales would go if they killed her off and they made a season 4.
Oh, that would just be anarchy lol. I want to think the first two episodes were what they were because of needing to establish Javier and his family as characters, and the storytelling is going to get a bit more diverse as the season rolls on, but with it stands right now the lack of emphasis on what we've experienced in favor of creating a new and disconnected experience is kind of making it difficult for me to form any connection to Javier and his plight. I can't speak for everyone who isn't too high on the season, but Javier its really not so much about me hating his new character as it is disinterest in him right now.
Can i ask, what is it about Javier that makes you not interested? You said lack of emphasis to what we've experienced before, but is just Javier that's not working for you? TNF's new characters or the story? Im not mad, im just curious as to someone's reason why.
I understand. The thing is: Clem knew Kenny. They spent a lot of time together, they started that shit together. So is justified.
Javi never met Clem untill the moment she threatens and robb him. So side with her is kinda... weird. I don't know.
But I understand cuz I like Clem as well, and want what is best for her.
I thought of that, but I don't know. Lying to strangers doesn't seem like a good deal to me.
Only Clem treat you different if you lie, or the others members of Prescott as well?
I absolutely understand where you're coming from and before I read your thread, I hadn't even considered how.. reckless and almost OOC (for a newly introduced character in the zombie apocalypse held at gunpoint when first meeting Clem) to try and cater to Clem's safety over the safety of the rest of Javi's new group. So I appreciate the perspective! Might have to play it another time with this more in mind.
Clementine assures herself that you cant trust people and Tripp has a slighlt attitude towards you and Clem, but both get over it. The chances they find out the truth any other way would be impossible. Lying is bad obviously, but to survive or it's justified/for the greater good (I know completely subjective) it should be considered.
Yep. I lied to the assholes of New Frontier saying I was alone when they ambush me for the gasoline. So lying sometimes is necessary, I guess.
Things Javi knew about Clementine at the time: She had a chance to kill him, but she didn't. She could have stolen the chocolate, but when Javi said it was for his niece, she didn't. She clearly can take care of herself. She knew where the Junkyard was and how to get there.
Things Javi knew about the people in the community at the time: They were people living in a community.
Exactly. I didn't knew anything about the people in the community... If they are ok, if they are not. But I guessed they weren't nice, so telling the truth was the smart move for Javi. I don't know. lol I just couldn't lie in that situation.
I get what you're trying to say but the thing is, Javier is you. Why would I play the game thinking "what would Javier want" if I'm him and he is supposed to be my character? My Javier cares about his family obviously, but he also trusts Clem and wants her to be part of the group. And like I said, so far my decisions to help Clem seemed reasonable because the choices were always tied to himself and/or his family and their safety too, not just Clem's.
I think you missed the point. At that point, Clem showed that she was a decent person and even trusted Javier (by taking his binds off) and she was valuable to him because she was going to take him back to the junkyard. In the meantime, you knew nothing about the people in the community (imagine what they could do to her if they were bad people and you would throw her under the bus). So in that scenario it makes sense to side with her. If nothing else, then because you need her to find your family. I sided with her mainly because the guy attacked her and Javier in the first place and he sold her ammo that didn't work properly which also put their lives at risk before. I wouldn't choose to just kill the guy, and Clem also didn't, it was an accident. So there were multiple reasons to cover for Clem in that situation. And it's not lying, not entirely. What Javi says it's the truth, the guy was crazy and did attack them and almost took his eye off.
Hmmm... I guess the overall presentation? I don't think it would have compromised Javiers story if the first episode would have spent more time with both of them, and been a decent length. Javier at the start of the apocalypse for the opening flashback. 2 years later, Clementine in whichever ending she ends up with, hopefully more than a 5 minute write off scene like we got, then to the present with Javier.
We can get the introduction going all the way back to the beginning, give us more of a follow up on the previous season, something more than a quick QTE scene, it at least establishes the new character while also giving a sense of what's happened since we last played. As it's presented now, its he's being pushed into the story while she's relegated to more of an "Well, she's still in there" character. They went less with integrating Javier and his family into the game, and more with just outright replacing the previous characters and by extent, burying all that history.
Don't know how Jesus will be in the game, but I also didn't put cuffs on him, because I knew him from the show. I still felt uneasy though. Didn't know, If I could trust him.
I did back up Clem in that situation but none of my choices will have bias toward Clementine. The minute it gave me the option to leave with my family i took it. Yeah, i would have liked to bury Mari but i also still have a nephew and sister in law/love interest to take care of. Barring David, i'll always choose my family over Clem.
Agreed, my inter voice, was that of Lee saying" The fuck's wrong with you?". The whole seen reminded me of the"Put the Gun down Bitch" out come. I'm a Clem fan. A keeper of the faith as it were. But this scene is'nt bad writing. It clearly shows who Clem is becomeing as a person. Like Kenny, Jane or Lee. She is reactionary when put under threat of death like Kenny. She has Jane's trite way of proving a point. And the same imposeing manner as Lee. But she's a teenage girl who's lost everything and everyone she even barely cares for. Most of whom died to keep her alive. Trust won't come easy for her. The scene works!
What happens, if you choose to go with the family ?
You drive back and have to help Eleanor and Gabriel (Determinant I think) with getting the bullet out of her and sew her.
Then Gabe runs off and you get to talk to him and walk around in a hub.
I hear you still do all that if you stand with Clementine. I hope it has a impact on Gabriel later in the game to stick with family.
The biggest difference is probably not being able to bury your niece. If you go back with the family it's assumed that her body was left there. You can then either keep the walkman to yourself or give it to Gabe instead of burying it with her.
because she is my daughter
You also didn't have to bury it with her if you stayed.
Honestly I was with Clem the whole time. No matter what she did I still backed her.Even though thats not really fair but i cant let anything happen to her.
What if Clem is killed off in Episode 4 or 5?I wouldnt be able to take it and now I have the fear that they are going to kill her off since in the picture for Episode 5 it's only Javier and no sign of Clem.
What does everyone else think on this matter?Is Clem going to be killed off?
It's complicated. It's not about playing thinking what would Javier want, but what would I want if I was Javier. And, by his point of view, trusting Clem in that beginning sounded far fetched. For me, at least. I try to forget everthing I played in the 2 seasons, even though it's hard, so I can make Javier decide, not my Season 1 and Season 2 brain who want to protect Clem at all costs.
And I think is fun that way. The dynamic between my Javi and Clem can be rough, and who knows, perhaps she even betray me for what I did (even though I doubt it. If she is going to betray us, it's going to happen no matter our choices). I would like to see that.
Sure, let's trust a girl who almost got us killed by cutting down a tree (which I don't really see Clem doing), threaten us, robbed us (she didn't take the chocolate, but took other stuff), shot a guy in cold blood even though she didn't mean it.
Seeing this by Javi's point of view, is REALLY hard trusting her. But we, as players, trust her. And people can deny all they want, but most will side with Clem for the fact she is Clem.
What's the difference between trusting Clem, a 13 year old kid, or trusting Eleanor or Tripp? It's like when you meet Jesus, Tripp says "I don't know, we just met this guy" and Clem says "We ALL just met" which is true. You just met those people and yet there they are, helping you. Is that not enough to trust them a little bit or at least not throw them under the bus?
And I also play the game thinking of what I would do if I was Javier. I covered for Clem because the guy was a dick and a crazy bastard that 1) put their lives at risk by giving her bad bullets and 2) tried to stab them. Maybe he didn't deserve to die, but what good would it do to sold out Clem? Specially when she was the one who was going to take Javier back to the junkyard? Like I said, if at that point you didn't care much for her, you should at least think about your family and how you are going to get to them. Obviously Tripp and Eleanor then offer to take you there but at that moment, Clem is your only shot.
She cut down the tree because she wanted to stop the car. Her plan wasn't to kill anyone.
It's funny that you don't seem to want to trust her and yet you expect her to trust you? She's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, she was being careful.
Again, she's a kid, alone in the apocalypse, can you blame her? And she had the decency of not taking the chocolate bar.
Yeah, she didn't mean it.
Well, obviously you have your mind set on it. So what's the point of even trying to discuss this with you if you can't seem to understand that, as Javier, it's not completely out of character to side with Clem. I've explained why in another comment but you don't seem to even consider what I said.
I don't know. I don't know why people think that now they are in an outside position, and a more powerful person than Clementine, Javier must be Lee reincarnated. I get that we all have our stories with Clementine, but the "protect Clementine" game is over. Season 1: "Protect Clem"; Season 2: "Keep The Group Together"; S3/ANF: "Protect your Family".
It's extremely clear that Clementine can handle herself now. She's cunning, quick on her feet, and has become a much different person than we last saw her in Season 2. 2 years alone without any real friends or family can take a toll on someone. I guess that's why Clem is always a moody, dark teen this season. You can't stay the same person throughout 2 years in the apocalypse...
People of the forums, listen..: You can think what you want about Clem, and you can protect her if you want, but I just want to say that this friendship may not last. The season's end may have Clem and Javi part ways, in ANF, Clem isn't supposed to be the child in your care, she's the more capable survivor that tops Javier (from what I've seen). This may sound cheesy, . Don't underestimate Clementine.
Who said I trusted any of them? lol I just didn't want to take the blame for something I didn't do.
That was one of my problems with the game. How in the hell people trust each other fully like, 24 knowing each other in the apocalypse? Don't make any sense to me.
The guy was crazy, but Clem was also being crazy at one point there. She should deal with the consequences of her actions, like all of us.
She is smart enough to know that should kill someone if the truck hit the tree.
I don't expect her to trust me. I actually dislike how fast she trust us, since my Lee told her to never trust anyone.
Ok. Let that pass because of the chocolate.
I've consider it, I just don't buy it. (EDIT) And I say MOST of the people. Not everyone of them. You can be the excepction, but I think that is a fact.
Why so overprotective? Simple:
We have raised her as our own daughter since she was 8-9 years old. And even though she can very obviously handle herself very well (trading batteries for bullets, scrounging up gear for herself, etc...) :
We still remember her as this funny child with a quirky sense of dress that's scared of spiders.
Don't assume people's reasons just because they made a decision different of your own.
Besides, every single major decision in the two episodes make sense for Javi, because all of them can be justified by him wanting to protect his family. Siding with Clem or not is a side effect.
The most obvious justifications for Javi's actions when he sides with Clem:
1 - Telling the lie to protect Clem. Javi wants her to take him to the junkyard so he can rescue his family.
2 - Trusting Clem and waiting until morning. Javi doesn't know anyone in the town so it makes sense for him to take the advice of the one person he exchanged more than a few words with so that he can go back to his family.
3 - Staying with Clem instead of going back with your family. On this case, Javi is emotionally unable to leave Mariana there like that and wants to shoot the people who killed her. It is a case of emotion over reason.
4 - Killing Conrad. That's the easiest one, since the threat to Javi's family is immediate and direct, with Conrad having Gabe at gunpoint.
I'm glad TellTale made sure that siding with Clem would make sense for the character and not only for the player. I think they did a good job.
I assume people's reasons based on what I see in the forums. I made this thread after reading others.
And I still don't get it why having Javier taking the blame and possibly having him be tortured, hurt or murdered can help Javier's family in any way. She can take him to de junkyard, but so can the people of the community, since it's obvious they know the region from the get go.
I don't think Telltale did a great job making decisions envolving Clem. Almost everyone will side with her, even though doesn't make sense trusting her. You think it does, I think it doesn't. People have a hard time trusting each other after months in that universe. And yet is justfied trusting Clem, even when we have all the reasons for not trusting her.
Anyway, "I've said my piece" - Kenny
snicker this thread tho. Makes me even more upset that we can't play Clem. HOPEFULLY, this isn't really season 3, but a spinoff. But I wouldn't hold my breath.
As far as the topic. Like someone else said. We got so much of clem (even when we were playing Lee) that we almost would do anything for her. Yes even if it meant maybe not doing the "right" thing. Oh well. Not like it matters, Its not like most of your choices matter, which a shame. Clem will still act the way she acts and your outcome will probably be the same. If the protagonist changes again, Javier is a side character your choices will him won't matter either. So stupid.
Considering how much Clementine has changed in the past two years, just as she had changed in the exact same amount of years from between Season 1 and 2, she might not even be the same Clementine we knew and trusted anymore.
Perhaps Telltale's true goal in Season 3 is to test just how far we will go to give everything up for Clementine's well being, and then deconstruct the idea of sacrificing everything for the sake of one girl Javier barely even knows, to the point where the player pays dearly for it.
If Clem is killed, I am done with Telltale, I don't say that lightly with games. Creating a character you nurture for 2 seasons, just to eliminate is so sloppy and dumb I have no words. They obviously can't write stories as well as they think they can. Even for a Walking Dead character, killing someone off that had lots of fans this early is just not cool.
I mean, sure, whatever works for you in the end. I mean, for me, it's the apocalypse, so all of this righteousness doesn't make much sense to me personally. Specially when that guy just tried to kill them both just like that. At that point, I may have only known Clem for a few hours, but I trusted her not because she is Clem but because of her actions that I already mentioned. I also know it was an accident. I wasn't going to throw a kid under the bus because of that, specially when I needed her to go back to my family.