It's really sad because Telltale i genuinely believe has/had good intentions for this season but the execution was not the best. The way I personally would have done it would be to have clementine as the primary playable character with plot relevance at the beginning of the series and also have Jaiver as a playable character. This way people are satisfied with clementine being the main character and they don't resent or dislike Jaiver because they feel he's overtaking clementine and taking her spotlight. With that said as the season progresses slowly make Jaiver more and more involved with the plot and a playable character so this way fans are able to warm up to Jaiver and naturally like him and become ok with him being the main character by the end of the series. Telltale completely messed up by automatically making Javier the main character and sidelining clementine to a minor role with little playtime.
I think they're actually doing a decent job with Javier, he's like the missed potential of Luke in S2 and as long as they keep fleshing him out, I'm on board with him sticking around. But I agree Telltale has backed themselves into a corner with the Clementine situation. Introducing a new protagonist is fine, but it would've been a smoother transition if they hadn't immediately gone full-on, 'It's HIS story now' and awkwardly shoehorned in Clementine for five minutes of playtime an ep. They also talked a big game about molding and carrying over your Clementine that just built up expectations and then resentment when it didn't amount to anything (thus far). It should've either been dual protagonists, or if Clem isn't going to be very playable, pay off our past actions in shaping her personality in meaningful ways, but instead they didn't give us either.
Most critically though, TT really just doesn't make games anymore that create characters three-dimensional enough, with arcs and journeys they spend enough time with to be able to compete with a character like Clementine. I mean, I want to get invested in new characters beyond, 'They're okay, I guess' and 'Oh, that sucks' when they quickly and unceremoniously die off, but it requires an approach that TT seems to have left behind. Until then, they shouldn't be surprised that so many people are going to stick with Clem and act with her interests in mind before everyone else's.
I completely disagree on your point of telltale "not having" to put clementine in the season. Look at how people are reacting to Clementine … morebeing barely playable and imagine that but far worse and rightfully or wrongfully a good amount of people at this point play TWD for clementine therefore removing her would most likely reduce the sales and excitement of this game which telltale does not want to happen. That's why they kept clementine in so that they could please older fans of the series and still keep the older fans engaged with the product. I'm not saying it's right but from Telltale's point of view it would be a absolute disaster to not have put her in
Playing as new character doesn't work because it feels like those filler episodes in the show! I know people didn't like playing as Clementine in season 2 because she was made smarter and more capable then the adults in the game. However since she is a teenager I think playing as her for more than five minutes would've made this season much better! TellTale please make Clementine come back as the main playable character!
Some people tend to be overprotective of a character they've spent two Seasons with, the first Season literally protecting as Lee, and the second season surviving as her.
I think that's completely untrue. Javier's a great character and I love playing as him. Though disappointedly some players are unrealistically over protective of Clementine but I think it still works.
Because in the end, they are still people and I don't doubt that many staff members do care about the fans greatly but they're likely not the ones in charge.
Why do we have to be nice to Telltale? I don't get it, I won't break the rules, but they obviously do not care about us or the things that matter to us, so why do we have to tip toe around their feelings?
I think I would've preferred if Clementine wasn't put into this season because let's face it, she overshadows Javier and all the new characters - perhaps not for everyone but for allot of people she does and that's part of the problem for some of them.
I DO NOT GIVE EVEN THE TINIEST LITTLE MICROFUCK ABOUT JAVIER.
I came here for Clementine, you know, the character we've been … moreplaying with since S1?
You're still getting Clem. She's just in a different role this time.
Try to appreciate the additional time you've been given with her. They didn't have to put her in the season, but they did.
Some people tend to be overprotective of a character they've spent two Seasons with, the first Season literally protecting as Lee, and the second season surviving as her.
It was the only reasonable thing they could do, considering how much of a mess playing as Clem was in season 2.
I like Javier and the new characters, though I have to agree I am very biased with my choices whenever Clem is around because I know her and I like her. When it's up to me to decide whether someone else has to die or Clem, it will always be the "someone else". Even that one time I decided to play the role of Javier better and let him stay with his family instead of staying with Clem, I felt really shitty about it afterwards because I thought Clem might need the backup more. I doubt Javier, as a character, would normally have cared in any way at all about that. He would have stayed with his family without a moment of hesitation.
The fact that we are playing a new guy, indeed, doesn't work, because we as a player are biased. But it's still the better call than letting Clem be the protagonist again.
That's just the problem with Lee dying. And it will be the reason why we won't be seeing Rick's death anytime soon, either. You kill the guy who has been the protagonist from the start in a post apocalyptic story? You lose. There won't be a character the viewers/player will ever even remotely feel as attached to again as before.
Javier is just such a bland character.
Lee was someone we slowly learned about through fairly well delivered expository dialogue and was … moresomeone who could reflect the tensions of being in a newly changed world. Trying to turn over a new leaf for others and even help a child reunited with her family, all the while letting us control how she could perceive the hostilities of the world.
The next season we were the child, now lost and alone in a ever-present world of death. Trying to straddle along and keep some level of decency. However, it was also more about resourcefulness and keeping sharp. Seemingly blurring the lines of good and bad...
Then No Going Back happened, and it was about out-idioting everyone else, but I digress.
Now we play largely a character who's entire backstory is explained within the first 6 minutes and who has expository machines disguised as people telling stories of yesteryear and smoking the dankest OG kush… [view original content]
They should've continued Clem story at a later point then. Obviously the writing is dog shit at the moment. Also she certainly IS the center of the game. All the other mini series and dlcs don't sell even 1/3 of what a Season with Clementine sells.
I'm all for violence as a major narrative construct for engaging the player.
However, whenever it's "kill dude or don't," "kill dude or don't," "harm guy or don't" with little pausing for reflective choices that help participate the player in a far more engaging story and helps world-building, then I feel creative liberties are being crippled.
The only somewhat interesting choice to lie about what Clem did to that dude-bro was severely hampered because we're almost immediately given a flashback about Clem that is used to make us sympathize with her rather then having an engaging conversation with her, voicing our outrage or capitulation much like season 1's after segment to the meat locker where the game actually allows players to, through dialogue, decipher their own initial point of view of Kenny's actions.
Structuring are in choice-driven games for a reason and I don't like when some of them just do one thing after another without any pausing.
Screw this javi character and jus give us clem back . Shit they should have pulled this new crappy character shit in s2 and clem back for s3 older, bolder and much more a soldier.
Screw this javi character and jus give us clem back . Shit they should have pulled this new crappy character shit in s2 and clem back for s3 older, bolder and much more a soldier.
I think that TT wants to cling on to Clementine (she is the game's Rick Grimes) for future episodes, but the last season didn't really make sense since a little girl being practically the leader of a group of grown-ups is just ridiculous.
I think it would have worked if the new character's (Javier's) goal was to find Clem because of ... reasons. Someone who knows her joins Javier, gives him a quest to find her and tells him about her (with some playable flashbacks with Clementine from this other person's perspective). Clem would have been present without overshadowing the story, and in season 4 when she is maybe 17 and old enough to be a credible self reliant character, we can take over playing as her again.
For the rest of this season the best choice is probably to make her disappear as much as possible.
Then they should have been truthful and upfront. They could have told us that Clem would take a backseat, and that Javier would be the main character. But no, instead they tell us that we play as both characters. Is that true, not fully. We only get Clem in bits n pieces (ie flashbacks), and we are forced to play Javier. Unless the remaining episodes at least let you switch between the two of them, like how you play with Trevor, Franklin, and Michael in GTAV. Then we have been give truths to. And that was not cool on TTG end.
If they wanted to go a different way, give us a new character, a new chapter, and a new story in the Walking Deadverse. That is 100% fine. But then at least tell us that, don't string us along with the promise of a character that has become believed to many players, then not give us access to her. That's a low blow.
I DO NOT GIVE EVEN THE TINIEST LITTLE MICROFUCK ABOUT JAVIER.
I came here for Clementine, you know, the character we've been … moreplaying with since S1?
You're still getting Clem. She's just in a different role this time.
Try to appreciate the additional time you've been given with her. They didn't have to put her in the season, but they did.
Honestly, if they wanted to tell a new story then they should have used either Krista or Lily. We already know them, some people might even have liked them, and some of their back story was already established. And we could play as them. Clem didn't even have to be involved. I would have liked that. Knowing just what happened to Krista's baby. And how did she escaspe those me chasing her and Clem. Or where did Lily got after being left on the side of the road.
Those stories had/have promise and TTG should have capitalized on them. But instead they forced Javier upon us. Someone we (at least many of us) just don't care about. Can't even build up mild interest in him.
You know how Javier would have worked well?
They should have introduced his character in a Season 3 where we played as Clem first, to not… more break the pattern to suddenly. This could be as a more or less supporting character, there would have been many ways to do it.
After that we should have played him in a "origin" type of story where we learn about him and shape him as the outbreak happens, I mean no one can ignore those 4 years that just passed, that's dumb.
Then we could have moved on to the Clem-partnership story.
They should have had one episode dedicated to this new player, and the next to Clementine, and then in episode 3 (or later) had them meet up… more and then you control one of them for half the episode each. That way, the new character would have had the time to make us care about them and their family (that's a big maybe, I haven't been impressed with what we've gotten so far.)
The big problem lies in Javier and the side characters being bland af. A game all about choices doesn't have much impact when you don't care about how your choices affect the characters.
It's just frustrating because the Clem I'm seeing now in S3 is the one I've wanted to play as all along. All that great build up and backstory has finally paid off! Except it hasn't. Because she's not playable.
Then they should have been truthful and upfront. They could have told us that Clem would take a backseat, and that Javier would be the main … morecharacter. But no, instead they tell us that we play as both characters. Is that true, not fully. We only get Clem in bits n pieces (ie flashbacks), and we are forced to play Javier. Unless the remaining episodes at least let you switch between the two of them, like how you play with Trevor, Franklin, and Michael in GTAV. Then we have been give truths to. And that was not cool on TTG end.
If they wanted to go a different way, give us a new character, a new chapter, and a new story in the Walking Deadverse. That is 100% fine. But then at least tell us that, don't string us along with the promise of a character that has become believed to many players, then not give us access to her. That's a low blow.
She should have been a larger support character in S2...maybe playable in parts....maybe with Christa in the protagonist position....but then Christ's dies in episode 4....episode 5...we play as Clem....God I have this after the fact script writing skill leveled to 9000.
We've endured one good season and one really poorly written season with Clementine.
The quality of the writing fluctuated, but I wou… moreldn't say it was consistently bad. Episode three featured some of the most exciting and suspenseful action I've seen in a Telltale game.
No, they always stated that you would be playing as both. Not only 10 seconds of Clem and the rest of the time as Javier. They should have made that 100% clear. They didn't though.
True, within the last month. The majority of the time from E3 onwards Javier was described as a new playable character who would be joining Clementine. Well, their exact words were he'd be playable "in addition to" Clementine. Hell, almost everything we saw before the VGAs featured Clementine or had Javier with her. Some people still held out hope that they'd do the dual protagonist scenario that had been promoted for so long, as her inclusion was a major draw for some returning players.
No, they always stated that you would be playing as both.
You are playing as both.
Yeah, you could say that only two instances of Clem playability (so far) isn't enough, but it's still not a lie in any way.
They promised control over Clem and you got it. Just not in the way you assumed you would, despite them constantly saying that this is Javier's story.
They could have told us that Clem would take a backseat, and that Javier would be the main character.
They have. They have so many times. People were just so blinded by their love for Clem that they weren't listening.
Javier's face is even the largest in the cover art. They've been upfront about Clem not being center stage, yet fans still came to the conclusion that she'd be playable more often than not.
This isn't Telltale's fault. You made the assumption. You set yourself up for disappointment.
No, they always stated that you would be playing as both. Not only 10 seconds of Clem and the rest of the time as Javier. They should have made that 100% clear. They didn't though.
No, they always stated that you would be playing as both.
You are playing as both.
Yeah, you could say that only two instances of… more Clem playability (so far) isn't enough, but it's still not a lie in any way.
They promised control over Clem and you got it. Just not in the way you assumed you would, despite them constantly saying that this is Javier's story.
They could have told us that Clem would take a backseat, and that Javier would be the main character.
They have. They have so many times. People were just so blinded by their love for Clem that they weren't listening.
Javier's face is even the largest in the cover art. They've been upfront about Clem not being center stage, yet fans still came to the conclusion that she'd be playable more often than not.
This isn't Telltale's fault. You made the assumption. You set yourself up for disappointment.
lol "kill them there". I mean, what can we expect? It's TTG, of course they would kill them. They can't be arsed to make a complicated story that divides your CHOICES in the game.
Tales of the Borderlands did it really nice with switching character and basically having 2 new main characters.
I still prefer Javi over C… morelem. I wish they didn't include her and did a mini DLC with here. Maybe 2 mini DLCs to please Kenny and Jane fans and then kill them there instead of a flashback ? Idk
But the poster is introducing them side by side, Clem actually appears to be a bit in front of them taking the lead while it centers on Javier right next to her. The appearance put the emphasis on the two of them after the announcement there would be two playable characters. Even the reveal trailer does a slow camera pan to reveal Clementine, followed by Javier walking up beside her saying "we must be getting close." I think people wouldn't have been jumping the gun for thinking they'd both be seeing a pretty equal role in the game up until about 20 days ago, can't remember exactly when the VGAs were. It just kinda seemed like a big change to reveal so close to release date.
I can't really say its appropriate to call TT out just yet, we're not even halfway through the season and I understand pushing Javier to get him established as a character early on. I do think a lack of diversity in the remainder of the season will rub some people the wrong way because of the timetable of the information release.
That photo seems pretty accurate to the final product, if you ask me...
Besides, a simple poster like that isn't enough to come to a conclusion about Clem's level of playability.
lol "kill them there". I mean, what can we expect? It's TTG, of course they would kill them. They can't be arsed to make a complicated story that divides your CHOICES in the game.
Playing as Javier is okay but yeah, it would be great to see signs of the Clementine I shaped in the past two seasons. Otherwise why even bother to make a story generator, that doesn't make any sense.
I don't know if it's just me, but Jane's model is quite disturbing to me (the one in S03 that is) I love my S02 Jane model, but they definitely didn't even try this season.
Those people acknowledge that they're biased and do not have reason to complain. They are the ones who might be favoring Clem unjustly, and they are the ones that have the faculty to acquire a different perspective.
Some people tend to be overprotective of a character they've spent two Seasons with, the first Season literally protecting as Lee, and the second season surviving as her.
Why do we have to be nice to Telltale? I don't get it, I won't break the rules, but they obviously do not care about us or the things that matter to us, so why do we have to tip toe around their feelings?
I don't know if it's just me, but Jane's model is quite disturbing to me (the one in S03 that is) I love my S02 Jane model, but they definitely didn't even try this season.
Comments
It's really sad because Telltale i genuinely believe has/had good intentions for this season but the execution was not the best. The way I personally would have done it would be to have clementine as the primary playable character with plot relevance at the beginning of the series and also have Jaiver as a playable character. This way people are satisfied with clementine being the main character and they don't resent or dislike Jaiver because they feel he's overtaking clementine and taking her spotlight. With that said as the season progresses slowly make Jaiver more and more involved with the plot and a playable character so this way fans are able to warm up to Jaiver and naturally like him and become ok with him being the main character by the end of the series. Telltale completely messed up by automatically making Javier the main character and sidelining clementine to a minor role with little playtime.
I think they're actually doing a decent job with Javier, he's like the missed potential of Luke in S2 and as long as they keep fleshing him out, I'm on board with him sticking around. But I agree Telltale has backed themselves into a corner with the Clementine situation. Introducing a new protagonist is fine, but it would've been a smoother transition if they hadn't immediately gone full-on, 'It's HIS story now' and awkwardly shoehorned in Clementine for five minutes of playtime an ep. They also talked a big game about molding and carrying over your Clementine that just built up expectations and then resentment when it didn't amount to anything (thus far). It should've either been dual protagonists, or if Clem isn't going to be very playable, pay off our past actions in shaping her personality in meaningful ways, but instead they didn't give us either.
Most critically though, TT really just doesn't make games anymore that create characters three-dimensional enough, with arcs and journeys they spend enough time with to be able to compete with a character like Clementine. I mean, I want to get invested in new characters beyond, 'They're okay, I guess' and 'Oh, that sucks' when they quickly and unceremoniously die off, but it requires an approach that TT seems to have left behind. Until then, they shouldn't be surprised that so many people are going to stick with Clem and act with her interests in mind before everyone else's.
I meant from a story perspective, she's not a requirement.
For sales, yeah, it was a smart choice.
Playing as new character doesn't work because it feels like those filler episodes in the show! I know people didn't like playing as Clementine in season 2 because she was made smarter and more capable then the adults in the game. However since she is a teenager I think playing as her for more than five minutes would've made this season much better! TellTale please make Clementine come back as the main playable character!
Sorry, but how is that TT's fault that you don't care for the new characters? I thought they did a alright job with them
Some people tend to be overprotective of a character they've spent two Seasons with, the first Season literally protecting as Lee, and the second season surviving as her.
Because in the end, they are still people and I don't doubt that many staff members do care about the fans greatly but they're likely not the ones in charge.
I think I would've preferred if Clementine wasn't put into this season because let's face it, she overshadows Javier and all the new characters - perhaps not for everyone but for allot of people she does and that's part of the problem for some of them.
I did the same thing.
It was the only reasonable thing they could do, considering how much of a mess playing as Clem was in season 2.
I like Javier and the new characters, though I have to agree I am very biased with my choices whenever Clem is around because I know her and I like her. When it's up to me to decide whether someone else has to die or Clem, it will always be the "someone else". Even that one time I decided to play the role of Javier better and let him stay with his family instead of staying with Clem, I felt really shitty about it afterwards because I thought Clem might need the backup more. I doubt Javier, as a character, would normally have cared in any way at all about that. He would have stayed with his family without a moment of hesitation.
The fact that we are playing a new guy, indeed, doesn't work, because we as a player are biased. But it's still the better call than letting Clem be the protagonist again.
That's just the problem with Lee dying. And it will be the reason why we won't be seeing Rick's death anytime soon, either. You kill the guy who has been the protagonist from the start in a post apocalyptic story? You lose. There won't be a character the viewers/player will ever even remotely feel as attached to again as before.
They wrote them. Lol.
This. So much this.
They should've continued Clem story at a later point then. Obviously the writing is dog shit at the moment. Also she certainly IS the center of the game. All the other mini series and dlcs don't sell even 1/3 of what a Season with Clementine sells.
I'm all for violence as a major narrative construct for engaging the player.
However, whenever it's "kill dude or don't," "kill dude or don't," "harm guy or don't" with little pausing for reflective choices that help participate the player in a far more engaging story and helps world-building, then I feel creative liberties are being crippled.
The only somewhat interesting choice to lie about what Clem did to that dude-bro was severely hampered because we're almost immediately given a flashback about Clem that is used to make us sympathize with her rather then having an engaging conversation with her, voicing our outrage or capitulation much like season 1's after segment to the meat locker where the game actually allows players to, through dialogue, decipher their own initial point of view of Kenny's actions.
Structuring are in choice-driven games for a reason and I don't like when some of them just do one thing after another without any pausing.
Screw this javi character and jus give us clem back . Shit they should have pulled this new crappy character shit in s2 and clem back for s3 older, bolder and much more a soldier.
What they should've done is what I've been saying since it was revealed we would be playing multiple characters through multiple timelines.
Just have either Clementine or Javier, cause all this "widening the pool" only makes it more shallow.
I think that TT wants to cling on to Clementine (she is the game's Rick Grimes) for future episodes, but the last season didn't really make sense since a little girl being practically the leader of a group of grown-ups is just ridiculous.
I think it would have worked if the new character's (Javier's) goal was to find Clem because of ... reasons. Someone who knows her joins Javier, gives him a quest to find her and tells him about her (with some playable flashbacks with Clementine from this other person's perspective). Clem would have been present without overshadowing the story, and in season 4 when she is maybe 17 and old enough to be a credible self reliant character, we can take over playing as her again.
For the rest of this season the best choice is probably to make her disappear as much as possible.
Then they should have been truthful and upfront. They could have told us that Clem would take a backseat, and that Javier would be the main character. But no, instead they tell us that we play as both characters. Is that true, not fully. We only get Clem in bits n pieces (ie flashbacks), and we are forced to play Javier. Unless the remaining episodes at least let you switch between the two of them, like how you play with Trevor, Franklin, and Michael in GTAV. Then we have been give truths to. And that was not cool on TTG end.
If they wanted to go a different way, give us a new character, a new chapter, and a new story in the Walking Deadverse. That is 100% fine. But then at least tell us that, don't string us along with the promise of a character that has become believed to many players, then not give us access to her. That's a low blow.
Honestly, if they wanted to tell a new story then they should have used either Krista or Lily. We already know them, some people might even have liked them, and some of their back story was already established. And we could play as them. Clem didn't even have to be involved. I would have liked that. Knowing just what happened to Krista's baby. And how did she escaspe those me chasing her and Clem. Or where did Lily got after being left on the side of the road.
Those stories had/have promise and TTG should have capitalized on them. But instead they forced Javier upon us. Someone we (at least many of us) just don't care about. Can't even build up mild interest in him.
YESSSSS!!!!!!!!
They did, though.
Several times.
She should have been a larger support character in S2...maybe playable in parts....maybe with Christa in the protagonist position....but then Christ's dies in episode 4....episode 5...we play as Clem....God I have this after the fact script writing skill leveled to 9000.
3 was ok...just seems to me that Carver was too easily defeated.
No, they always stated that you would be playing as both. Not only 10 seconds of Clem and the rest of the time as Javier. They should have made that 100% clear. They didn't though.
True, within the last month. The majority of the time from E3 onwards Javier was described as a new playable character who would be joining Clementine. Well, their exact words were he'd be playable "in addition to" Clementine. Hell, almost everything we saw before the VGAs featured Clementine or had Javier with her. Some people still held out hope that they'd do the dual protagonist scenario that had been promoted for so long, as her inclusion was a major draw for some returning players.
You are playing as both.
Yeah, you could say that only two instances of Clem playability (so far) isn't enough, but it's still not a lie in any way.
They promised control over Clem and you got it. Just not in the way you assumed you would, despite them constantly saying that this is Javier's story.
They have. They have so many times. People were just so blinded by their love for Clem that they weren't listening.
Javier's face is even the largest in the cover art. They've been upfront about Clem not being center stage, yet fans still came to the conclusion that she'd be playable more often than not.
This isn't Telltale's fault. You made the assumption. You set yourself up for disappointment.
They did kinda back pedal at the last minute though, man. This was what we got at the announcement.
That photo seems pretty accurate to the final product, if you ask me...
Besides, a simple poster like that isn't enough to come to a conclusion about Clem's level of playability.
Imagine if they killed Clem. Holy shit... I can't even phantom (see wut I did there?) the shitstorm that would happen.
lol "kill them there". I mean, what can we expect? It's TTG, of course they would kill them. They can't be arsed to make a complicated story that divides your CHOICES in the game.
But the poster is introducing them side by side, Clem actually appears to be a bit in front of them taking the lead while it centers on Javier right next to her. The appearance put the emphasis on the two of them after the announcement there would be two playable characters. Even the reveal trailer does a slow camera pan to reveal Clementine, followed by Javier walking up beside her saying "we must be getting close." I think people wouldn't have been jumping the gun for thinking they'd both be seeing a pretty equal role in the game up until about 20 days ago, can't remember exactly when the VGAs were. It just kinda seemed like a big change to reveal so close to release date.
I can't really say its appropriate to call TT out just yet, we're not even halfway through the season and I understand pushing Javier to get him established as a character early on. I do think a lack of diversity in the remainder of the season will rub some people the wrong way because of the timetable of the information release.
At least have a dedicated chapter for them. Instead of just in a flashback. A bad one that is
Playing as Javier is okay but yeah, it would be great to see signs of the Clementine I shaped in the past two seasons. Otherwise why even bother to make a story generator, that doesn't make any sense.
I don't know if it's just me, but Jane's model is quite disturbing to me (the one in S03 that is) I love my S02 Jane model, but they definitely didn't even try this season.
They only introduced Javier because they couldn't facilitate the alternate paths in a good way.
Basically, they were lazy and wanted to try and narrow down the work with alternate paths as much as possible.
Those people acknowledge that they're biased and do not have reason to complain. They are the ones who might be favoring Clem unjustly, and they are the ones that have the faculty to acquire a different perspective.
You are on their forum.
Tell me you were being sarcastic.
If you're able to put aside your biased perspective, you will find it easy to accept that Javier is the main playable character.
Yeah I was not happy about it either. Then I thought at least Jane has the same character. Nope. That's not Jane I loved