Yeah, Conrad is taking drastic decisions but it wasn't because he was losing his mind, it was because he heard about Clementine lying about her involvement with the new frontier, he obviously cares for the girls because he wants to take Clementine has a offer to the new frontier, was grabbing Gabe too much?Yes, but he knew it would make Javier agree with him or possibly shoot him.
Yes the Gabe thing was too far, im not disagreeing with you.
That's the same as point 2.
That;s a canon death, its made to tell the player you have to make a choice, normally when those happened, it was because a walker killed the player or the player fell and died, because there's no other way for a respawn to happen because the walkers cant get in, then they had to make Conrad shoot Javier and Gabe.
His doing it for the girls safety, and also because Clementine lied about her involvement so he doesn't trust her, and Clementine killed Eli in cold blood remember.
Yeah, doesn't mean he has to shoot Conrad.
That's the same risk he'd take with trusting Clementine, she's lied this season and we don't know exactly what she's doing, iff you shoot Conrad, she takes off, she seems very keen to avoid the new frontier, whats she hiding? It's your choice decision, Conrad might snap again, and Clementine might have other lies for us. Pick your poison.
I mean, if you had the option to shoot him, it means he was probably going to die a few minutes later anyway (maybe during that same scene).… more Besides, no one threatens Clem and lives!!1!
edit: In all seriousness now, here's why I shot him: https://telltale.com/community/discussion/111155/spoilers-why-it-makes-sense-for-javier-to-side-with-clem go to the Conrad decision if you don't want to read the wall of text.
The person's post was in favour of Clementine, and saying to me , who am i to chose this and that? That's not attacking me?
Back to my point, the persons response was just to favour Clementine, without adding that the girl killed the man in cold blood.
Like i said, if i started swearing and abusing the person ,that would be attacking, did i insult and abuse the person?
Sorry stating the truth to you means it attacking someone. Next time i'll lie like that person and 90% of the people did for Clementine after Elis death, oops.
I'll spell it out for you.
"Clementine picture : Check." Here you are attacking their choice of avatar, not their post.
"Sticking up f… moreor Clementine for shooting a unarmed man in cold blood : Check." Here you're attacking them for their opinion instead of actually addressing what is wrong with their argument. Also, whether or not it was in 'cold blood' is the premise of the posters argument, but you asserted it in your statement as if it were not the premise but an agreed upon fact, without providing an argument for it yourself.
"Justifying her actions : Check." Yes, and...
"Yep we have one guys." argumentum ad hominem.
Actually, she doesn't want to at first, but then decides to just to blackmail Javier in stealing his van which she knows is what he needs to survive, so she's willing to take him back to his family but leave them stranded just for her to better herself, is this the same Clementine in the previous seasons?
Not betraying, because you can go the whole season not trusting Clementine, so you're only talking for a gamer who sides with Clementine.
Lol nice excuse for Clementines personality. Just need to make an excuse for her current personality didn't you.
When someone lies, you can't trust them again, Clementine lied, and while Conrad held Gabe hostage, his looking out for the group and to him Clementine can't be trusted and i agree with him ,it doesn't make you wrong, it means you're not trusting someone who lied to you. What's wrong with that?
Conrad took a hostage to force you to do exactly what he wanted.
Clementine did the exact same thing when she forced you at gun point to … moreagree to give her your van.
But here's the crucial difference for me: When Clem takes you hostage, you are not a member of her group; you are a stranger who could be dangerous in a world where resources are extremely scarce and during the time you're together, she risks her butt to help you out.
Conrad takes a GROUP member hostage to coerce another group member into betraying a different group member and point's his gun at all three. The fact he has no problem threatening group members makes him unpredictable and dangerous and I have no reason to think he wouldn't do it again.
Clem's flaky as fuck, but at least her behavior is predictable and was not a direct threat to javi or his kin at the time, whereas Conrad's behavior was.
If you're not gonna look out for the people you're with, then you … [view original content]
Do you mean back off as in the punching? You can punch him a few times, then when the cut scene finishs and you;re back to punching, you can stop and then you'll get off him. So, you punch him at the start because if you don't, he'll flip you over but after the cut scene, he can't defend himself, butpeople still punched him because to some they thought it was funny seeing his face fucked up.
He still wanted to fight, he might've been beaten, but he was willing to keep fighting. Im saying that if you kill the brothers, it has an effect on Clementine and people didn't want to do it. I mean, you're saying the thing about Javier and Gabe, yet your ultimate choice was because of Clementine the liar.
Yeah it's a canon death, not part of the storyline.
Don't forget, Andy held a gun to 2 kdis heads and could've killed them at anytime, what about Andy grabbing a 8 year old girls hair and yanking her back? Conrad was trying to agree to a plan to help the girls, Andy did it to eat the kids and everyone. Tell me who is really the worse person
While I did shoot Conrad because of Clementine, it's very understandable to shoot and neutralize him because he has his (Javi's) nephew at g… moreun point, and tried to force you into agreeing. (Shooting both of you if staying silent just underlines the choice to shoot him).
Andy is an entirely different matter. He tried to kill Lee on the electrical fence, Lee manages to fend him off, and beats him to pulp in the heat, NOT killing him. BTW, you don't get the option to back off of Andy.
After beating him down, it's over for him. What else can he do? No gun, no power to beat down any one of the group. He's done for and no threat at all; even more so while walkers are shuffling towards all of them.
I didn't shoot Andy, because there was no need to. I also didn't kill Danny with the fork in the barn. He was done for, why accelerate the process?
Conrad, as mentioned, was holding a gun to someone else's head and was able to end his life at any… [view original content]
Actually, she doesn't want to at first, but then decides to just to blackmail Javier in stealing his van which she knows is what he needs to… more survive, so she's willing to take him back to his family but leave them stranded just for her to better herself, is this the same Clementine in the previous seasons?
Not betraying, because you can go the whole season not trusting Clementine, so you're only talking for a gamer who sides with Clementine.
Lol nice excuse for Clementines personality. Just need to make an excuse for her current personality didn't you.
When someone lies, you can't trust them again, Clementine lied, and while Conrad held Gabe hostage, his looking out for the group and to him Clementine can't be trusted and i agree with him ,it doesn't make you wrong, it means you're not trusting someone who lied to you. What's wrong with that?
Of course he has a right not to trust her, it's normal not to trust strangers what I meant is him using someone as a bargaining chip against their will. If she wants to leave so much, just let her go. she doesn't owe them anything and he doesn't have to trust her in return therefore she has a right to have her secrets just like him. It wasn't up to Conrad to decide for her what she wanted to do for herself. Yeah it was annoying, just like using their grief as an excuse to act like jerks to others but at least it's much more believable than everybody instantly trusting Javier and act like if he's the leader of the group no matter what you do.
You don't trust her, fine. Thanks to her reaction when she learned about the New Frontier taking over Richmond and the following flashback, I do. Like I said, neutrality is almost always the best option, so I don't try to act like I'm biased toward my family. I won't force anyone to do anything against their will.
Actually I like season 2 and 3 so far but it lost a lot of details that I loved in season 1, doesn't mean I won't criticized them. Hating games is pointless if you ask me and a complete wast of time.
So what am i nice trying about?
You thinking every decisions is about us just making excuses for Clementine.
Well in one of my save file she should have, I never had her steal or kill anybody but I guess it was too hard for them to make a different line depending on your previous decisions but I least I recognize her wanting to help people in need but when the time comes she finds her own way, so there's that.
As for Eli, she didn't know the bullet would work hence her shock when the gun actually the second time. If he truly feared for his life he wouldn't have acted so smug about her proving he traded her the bullets and when she pointed the gun at him. Too bad there was no variation of her not being phased by his death, would have been interesting to see.
Maybe she'll be the one to kill Conrad for using her in one playthrough or watching him being killed without doing anything to help, there's a lot of possibilities with the ending of episode 2. Hopefully they don't screw it up.
Exactly what you said, she doesn't feel obliged to but then she decides to cut him free and blackmail him saying well i know you need to get… more to your family and the car is your ticket to survival, but im going to just blackmail and steal it when too be honest Javier had a right not to trust her. I was only going by your logic that you said Javier was crying over his family, so it must mean so was Clementine when she first met Lee.
We don't know that yet, all we know is that she was a part of them, we can't trust her yet. She runs off if you kill Conrad, why is she so against being noticed by them? It has nothing to do with our desire, it's the fact that she lied, so she cant be trusted, if we use her because she's been there, it might help save the girls, for me it's time to look out for the other characters, not just Clementine.
the misleading markertings been there since season 1 , remember the trailers that were completly different to… [view original content]
Traitors are to be punished by death. The one who offers, no DEMANDS, to sell one of his community members, and he knows that they will brutally butcher this person, is a traitor. And, even if we ignore the fact that Clem was main character before, and treat her as brand new person, she helped Javi and others. Or, do you think that if they'd hand Clem to New frontier still at the gates, they won't pillage their town and torment Conrad's wife just for fun? Sure they would! Who'd miss the chance to rob when having enough firepower, in those conditions? They killed that girl (don't remember name, Javi's niece) just for fun, they saw she was an unarmed child! And to betray one of your own to make piece with fascists?! What's there to think about?
Well, we still don't know what Clem did to enrage them so much. Maybe in next episodes we will find out that she killed and ate all their babies. Now, that is something completely different. But, until I see absolute proof of something like this, I'll treat her as good side, that should be protected, and new frontier as evil that should be opposed.
This is probably my second biggest issue with the season... Clementine is involved in a lot of the choices, and it of course will influence the results. I really hope this isn't a build up to something similar to what they did with Kenny in Season 2, because that was one of the reasons that season didn't hold up for me. There was too much "side with the older character, or the newer character" moments. I do love Season 3 better than Season 2 so far though, and can only hope they don't make the same mistake that disappointed me previously.
Everyone has their own biases, they don't have to justify themselves just like them deciding to kill Larry, Andy/Danny, Ben or abandoning Li… morelly etc... I didn't kill him either because it felt wrong and I know Clem is going to find a way out of it as always, I'm still waiting for her epic "Fuck you" speech like Ben did to Kenny back in season 1. He'll probably die in next episode anyway since he's determinant. As for her still being with them, I found it really unlikely, especially with a suspiciously absent AJ and her freaking out about the NF taking over Richmond. She wasn't obliged to tell you anything about her past but she did anyway not matter if you sided with her or not despite knowing the risks of them using that against her but I think the Clem I shaped the past seasons will understand why he did that.
"The person's post was in favour of Clementine, and saying to me , who am i to chose this and that? That's not attacking me?" No, it's not. They were pointing out that you are not the arbiter of what is or is not morally justifiable, any more than any other player. That is not a denigration of your character, nor is it trying to invalidate your choice. You seem to be under the false impression that someone having a different opinion of what's right and wrong from yours is somehow an indictment of you personally.
"The persons response was just to favour Clementine, without adding that the girl killed the man in cold blood" This is a fallacy known as 'Begging the Question,' you're taking your conclusion (that it was done in cold blood) and trying to use it as a premise. Why would they add that Clem killed Eli in cold blood when their entire argument was made in opposition of that assertion? You haven't convinced them yet. And again, you accuse them of arguing in bad faith due to a bias towards Clem, but completely ignore the actual argument itself, which is as follows: "I felt her killing the guy was justified because he almost got Clem killed with the bullets he sold her, then tried to stab her and Javi." This is what you should be arguing against if you want to gain any ground.
"If i started swearing and abusing the person ,that would be attacking, did i insult and abuse the person?" You seem to be misunderstanding what I mean by the word 'attacking,' so let me make myself clear. It is not an accusation of being inflammatory, you do not have to be using curse words to be attacking someones character. What I'm saying is that what you are doing is trying to attribute what you perceive to be a character flaw, i.e. being a clementine fanatic, to them and using that to dismiss their argument out of hand. That is the ad hominem fallacy I was referring to in my previous post.
The person's post was in favour of Clementine, and saying to me , who am i to chose this and that? That's not attacking me?
Back to my poi… morent, the persons response was just to favour Clementine, without adding that the girl killed the man in cold blood.
Like i said, if i started swearing and abusing the person ,that would be attacking, did i insult and abuse the person?
Sorry stating the truth to you means it attacking someone. Next time i'll lie like that person and 90% of the people did for Clementine after Elis death, oops.
I dont trust Conrad 100%, but i trust him a lot more then Clementine.
She's lied to Javier, Conrad, while he did to Gabe what he did, hasn't lied to us about his involvement like she has. Im playing as Javier, and with what Clementine has done, she has granted no reason why he should trust her.
You know you can argue on and on about how you dont trust clementine but most players do.
Even if you dont trust her your really saying you trust conrad more than her
She told Javier about the new frontier, about what they did and she even (if you stay with Clementine) fought of the guys with Javier. Then she tells him as they're almost at the new frontier, that she was apart of them, she said all this stuff about them, fought them off then just says "Oh, i was apart of them at one stage" Considering what they did to Javiers family and that the girls had drove to their base, what do you really expect Javier would be like? Oh, that's cool Clementine, nothing malice in t. She lied, liars deserve no respect no matter who you are. I said him taking Gabe was bad, but it's either agree with Conrad, or Shoot him, and im not gonna kill the guy when he grabbed Gabe because his motive was because of Clementine. In the end, imo agreeing with him is the best choice, think about the effect of the other members of the group if you kill him.
I took it as if she was hiding something, but that's just me. And to add to the fact that she was trying hard to escape the situation of having to go face to face with them to. I feel like she's panicking because she has other stuff to hide, maybe to do with aj? i dont know because the episodes aren't out, maybe it is just her not wanting to go their because they were bad people, but i got the vibe she's hiding something.
That's why i don't hate them, there's stuff in them i didn't like of course, but i enjoy these games. That's what pissed me off when i saw people whinging about Javier because of Clementine, we need to enjoy it because the alternative, is there is no games.
The majority of the decisions are, in Conrads case it is because the options the are the majority are Clementine or Gabe. I've lost count how many times ive heard someone say "No one does that to my clemy".
I don't know why telltale is making her reckless, there's a difference betwenn her being a badass and reckless. Clementine in the first 2 seasons would never point a gun at a unarmed guys face or lie about something serious.
Well, she couldve pointed it at the ground, she didn't need to point at his face, and you can see he was very scared, he was begging her to take the batteries, but she refused and pulled the trigger, i guess Eli probably didn't expect her to pull the trigger.
Given his determinant, i can't see him lasting long, so probably be something like that and if you side with him, it'll have an effect on the relationship with her two, like if you sided with Kenny or Lily, the relationship varies depending on who you sided with.
Of course he has a right not to trust her, it's normal not to trust strangers what I meant is him using someone as a bargaining chip against… more their will. If she wants to leave so much, just let her go. she doesn't owe them anything and he doesn't have to trust her in return therefore she has a right to have her secrets just like him. It wasn't up to Conrad to decide for her what she wanted to do for herself. Yeah it was annoying, just like using their grief as an excuse to act like jerks to others but at least it's much more believable than everybody instantly trusting Javier and act like if he's the leader of the group no matter what you do.
You don't trust her, fine. Thanks to her reaction when she learned about the New Frontier taking over Richmond and the following flashback, I do. Like I said, neutrality is almost always the best option, so I don't try to act like I'm biased toward my family. I won't force anyone to do anything against… [view original content]
That's rich dude, really. Because my opinion isn't a biased Clementine fan, it's them who have the false impression. Tell me, you're not that naive. Everytime someone has a opinion that isn't biased towards her, they cop shit. Don't believe me? Look at this thread, look at the youtube comments of people saying something negative about her. This person commented on here attacking me because said person is a Clementine fan, if i didn't say nothing negative, they wouldn't of said anything.
I don't need to argue, because when someone types what they believe, but can't respond back, then i know it was just a typical "ill post a comment, but then ill be too scared to reply" because people are scared of confrontations real life and internet. This person can reply back at anytime but choose not to but ill be in your little mind youll say "Oh, but you didn't write a response, you bashed them ,so why should they reply". White knight alert.
Ill make it real simple for you okay? This person is talking out of a biased opinion towards a character he/she is biased between. Said person is justifying someone shooting someone in cold blood because that person "almost got people killed", Now, Clementine shot a man in cold blood who was unarmed and begged to trade back. This person fails to mention this because they're trying to make it sound like Clementine is all clear and saying ti's alright for her to shoot him. Did he dog her with the bullets? Yes. Is it acceptable for her to shoot an unarmed man in cold blood? N o it is not. There is no justification in it.
It's not perceiving if it's facts dude. The person is a Clementine fan , i was merely being a smart ass indication points why, And don't think the person was being respectable to me saying what gives you the right blah blah blah. Smart ass comments get smart ass replies, fairs fair. In Clementine fans cases though, it's all about protecting her. Even if she kills someone unarmed in cold blood.
"The person's post was in favour of Clementine, and saying to me , who am i to chose this and that? That's not attacking me?" No, it's not. … moreThey were pointing out that you are not the arbiter of what is or is not morally justifiable, any more than any other player. That is not a denigration of your character, nor is it trying to invalidate your choice. You seem to be under the false impression that someone having a different opinion of what's right and wrong from yours is somehow an indictment of you personally.
"The persons response was just to favour Clementine, without adding that the girl killed the man in cold blood" This is a fallacy known as 'Begging the Question,' you're taking your conclusion (that it was done in cold blood) and trying to use it as a premise. Why would they add that Clem killed Eli in cold blood when their entire argument was made in opposition of that assertion? You haven't convinced them yet. And again, you accu… [view original content]
I really think that, even if you want to play as if you only had Javier's knowledge about Clementine, shoot Conrad is still a choice that make sense.
Most of the people talking about that choice are too pragmatic for me : they are like "we only know Clem since one day, we can possibly save our family if we betray her, so let's do it"
Things are not that simple. Even if it's true that Conrad's plan can save Javier's family, it's not an easy choice to make to sacrife a child for that. Because yes, that's what Clem is : a child. And she saved his life !
And Javier saw what The New Frontier did to his niece , so he knows that they are capable to kill a child without any hesitation.
I think that, in this situation, anyone would ask themselves : "what does this choice make of me ? What kind of person I want to be". And it depends on how you want Javier to be. We don't have the same Javier.
So both choices make sense for me.
It's like in season 1 episode 1, when we didn't know if Duck was beaten or not. The pragmatic choice would have been to agree with Larry. After all, we only met Kenny's family in the morning, and if Duck was beaten it would have been a real problem for everyone. But still, my Lee couldn't agree with killing a child, even if it put everyone in danger. To kill a child is not an easy choice to make.
I'm saying, if he CAN die in that moment, he is a determinant character, therefore you can bet he is going to die in the next episode. Probably by doing something stupid like opening fire on TNF or something.
Yeah, Conrad is taking drastic decisions but it wasn't because he was losing his mind, it was because he heard about Clementine lying about her involvement with the new frontier, he obviously cares for the girls because he wants to take Clementine has a offer to the new frontier, was grabbing Gabe too much?Yes, but he knew it would make Javier agree with him or possibly shoot him.
Sorry, but shooting a shotgun in a tunnel full of walkers is losing his mind to me. 4 years into the apocalypse and he does shit like that? And I don't believe for a second he gives a crap about Kate when he is willing to put Javi's nephew at gunpoint to make him agree to his plan. What he wants is probably revenge for Francine's death. The fact that you seem to be ok with him DEMANDING everyone to agree with his plan, otherwise he starts killing people, is just slightly disturbing. Personally, I don't want someone like that around my family.
His doing it for the girls safety, and also because Clementine lied about her involvement so he doesn't trust her, and Clementine killed Eli in cold blood remember.
Doesn't change the fact that she is a kid and that he knows the kind of people TNF are (the kind that has no problems in killing kids). Eli's death was an accident. She never meant for that to happen. She was reckless by pointing the gun at him not knowing 100% if the bullets would work or not, but she never meant to "kill him in cold blood".
Yeah, doesn't mean he has to shoot Conrad.
Well the options were, shoot Conrad or accept his plan, sooo. I'm only saying that Javier had a clear shot of him, so there was a low chance he would miss and shoot Gabe instead.
That's the same risk he'd take with trusting Clementine, she's lied this season and we don't know exactly what she's doing, iff you shoot Conrad, she takes off, she seems very keen to avoid the new frontier, whats she hiding? It's your choice decision, Conrad might snap again, and Clementine might have other lies for us. Pick your poison.
She only lied saying she was their prisoner. And depending on what dialogue you choose she can say "after what happened to your family, I didn't know how to tell you". So can you blame her for making a mistake of not revealing the truth straight away? It seems you just have a grudge against Clementine to be honest. Because you are willing to excuse a grown ass man threatening a kid (while wanting to send another kid to a group of monsters), in order to force you to agree to his plan. But you aren't willing to forgive a young girl's mistake she clearly regrets. Besides, Clementine's lies never put Javier and his family in danger, Conrad on the other hand is intentionally doing it.
But he doesn't die though if you agree with him.
* Yeah, Conrad is taking drastic decisions but it wasn't because he was losing his min… mored, it was because he heard about Clementine lying about her involvement with the new frontier, he obviously cares for the girls because he wants to take Clementine has a offer to the new frontier, was grabbing Gabe too much?Yes, but he knew it would make Javier agree with him or possibly shoot him.
* Yes the Gabe thing was too far, im not disagreeing with you.
* That's the same as point 2.
* That;s a canon death, its made to tell the player you have to make a choice, normally when those happened, it was because a walker killed the player or the player fell and died, because there's no other way for a respawn to happen because the walkers cant get in, then they had to make Conrad shoot Javier and Gabe.
* His doing it for the girls safety, and also because Clementine lied about her involvement so he doe… [view original content]
Good points, to me as im playing i think to myself
"Okay, Conrad has Gabe hostage, that's a bad thing to do, But i also think that shooting Conrad doesn't sit well with me because i feel it's to far too shoot someone and let Clementine who lied to Javier free" Now, if Clementine hadn't lied and she was honest straight up and Conrad had been a dick the whole time, i would've shot him but he saved Javier, and Clementine lied about the new frontier, so to me it makes sense to agree with his plans. Im also looking out for the others like the girls, and how Tripp feels because if you kill Conrad, it effects Tripp as well.
Well we see Duck not get bitten, the walker is on top of him, and when Carely shoots him, you clearly see Duck is not bitten, so weather we trust Kenny or Not, we know for a fact Duck wasn't bitten, so if he wasn't bitten and someone accuses him off been, we say the truth. It's a bit different to the Conrad thiing.
(Sorry for my English, I'm french)
I really think that, even if you want to play as if you only had Javier's knowledge about Clementine, … moreshoot Conrad is still a choice that make sense.
Most of the people talking about that choice are too pragmatic for me : they are like "we only know Clem since one day, we can possibly save our family if we betray her, so let's do it"
Things are not that simple. Even if it's true that Conrad's plan can save Javier's family, it's not an easy choice to make to sacrife a child for that. Because yes, that's what Clem is : a child. And she saved his life !
And Javier saw what The New Frontier did to his niece , so he knows that they are capable to kill a child without any hesitation.
I think that, in this situation, anyone would ask themselves : "what does this choice make of me ? What kind of person I want to be". And it depends on how you want Javier to be. We don't have the same Javier.
So both… [view original content]
No i meant Gabe, not Conrad. You made a comment about Conrad shooting Gabe and Javier if you don't choose a decision, but it was a canon death, like if you don't say anything to Kenny in the train, he kicks you out and you return and the group is all dead and Duck has turned into a walker and kills Lee, then it respawns back to the Kenny scene.
He panicked, they entered a tunnel and it was pitch dark and they didn't realise how many walkers were in there, it was a moment of desperation. He says that by giving Clementine to the new frontier it can help the girls, if he doesn't care about anyone, why did he help Javier get up the roof? Too be honest, im more disturbed at why so many people sided with Clementine considering she lied to us. It's saying that liars can get away with it as long as they re cute or a favourite character.
"You ain't a boy or girl, you're a living thing" - Chuck . You can't use the kid card excuse. As far as im concerned, i couldn't care if Clementine was killed, she lied to us, and they have hostages who are far more important then Clementine at the moment. She pointed the gun at him and pulled the trigger, weather or not she knew it was loaded or not, she still didn't care if there was bullets. She could've pointed it at the ground, and don't forget, he pleaded with her to have batteries and she totattly wasn't interested.
And im saying that regardlass of the target, he didn't need to, shooting someone and letting a liar go is wrong .
Prisoner? She was ONE of them. If you choose not to go with the girl in the flashback, Clementine can say she wasn't interested but that they're persuasive. She had intentions to join their group. When she described them to Javier, that's when she should['ve told him, straight away his niece was shot.
Like i have said on here, it's the fans that make me not want to get on board with her, because they're too biased. Clementine lied, and Conrad is more suitable to me then she is, she is hiding something that's why she is so on edge about going to the camp. If she didn't lie, Conrad, would never of done what he did, he did it because of Clementine, he grabbed Gabe because he tried to bait Javier to reason with him, if you let him talk, you can see he is being sincere and when youre look at it, besides him grabbing Gabe, clementine is being a dick, insulting Conrad then turning on Javier if you say the plan could work. She's clearly all about herself, as soon as you say something against her, she abuses you, Conrad at least tries to reason with you.
But he doesn't die though if you agree with him.
I'm saying, if he CAN die in that moment, he is a determinant character, therefore … moreyou can bet he is going to die in the next episode. Probably by doing something stupid like opening fire on TNF or something.
Yeah, Conrad is taking drastic decisions but it wasn't because he was losing his mind, it was because he heard about Clementine lying about her involvement with the new frontier, he obviously cares for the girls because he wants to take Clementine has a offer to the new frontier, was grabbing Gabe too much?Yes, but he knew it would make Javier agree with him or possibly shoot him.
Sorry, but shooting a shotgun in a tunnel full of walkers is losing his mind to me. 4 years into the apocalypse and he does shit like that? And I don't believe for a second he gives a crap about Kate when he is willing to put Javi's nephew at gunpoint to make him agree to his plan. What he w… [view original content]
"Actually, she doesn't want to at first..." Ok, I'm not entirely sure which part of my post you are addressing here but I think it's the part about her risking her butt to help you, so that's what I'm gonna assume until you say otherwise. Like I said, she's flaky as fuck and if I had the option to try to escape at that point I would have done it. But this is normal behavior in The Walking Dead Universe when having a run in with a stranger, so I don't really hold it against her. Really, most people would have just shot you instead.
"Not betraying, because you can go the whole season not trusting Clementine, so you're only talking for a gamer who sides with Clementine." Actually, I'm talking as a gamer who has done both on multiple playthroughs; but that's irreverent. It's not about you not trusting her, it's about her trusting you enough to tell you about her past and as soon as she does you use it against her, that's what makes it a betrayal.
"Lol nice excuse for Clementines personality. Just need to make an excuse for her current personality didn't you." Again, not sure which part of my post you're talking about, but come to think of it, I don't really care either. Her personality's fine, it doesn't need me to make an excuse. If you don't like it, well no one cares because it's all subjective.
"When someone lies, you can't trust them again, Clementine lied..." That's a bit dogmatic; Lee lied about being a murderer for months, what should the group have done with him? Her lie was so inconsequential that I honestly can't understand why people get as worked up about it as they do. First off, she wasn't obligated to tell you anything her past at all and she only really lies if you stay to help her fight in the junk yard. After you bury Mari when she says she was with them but "Not by choice," this was the only part that was a lie and if you don't fight with her it doesn't come up anyway, she just tells you that they're called TNF the next time she see's you. Can you tell me what exactly the consequence of omitting the fact that she used to be with them willingly, was? What do you think it would have changed? The only thing that I can think of is if she told you right off the bat, you could have used her as a bargaining chip sooner, which I'm sure crossed her mind also. Considering that Badger wasn't too keen on keeping his end of a bargain, that probably wouldn't have ended to well for anyone anyway.
"...while Conrad held Gabe hostage, his looking out for the group..." I don't know how you can say he's looking out for the group when he used his gun to threaten 50% of the group in the span of five seconds. And don't tell me he's thinking about Kate; I don't think he's said a single word to her the entire game and he's threatening to take the lives of the only family she has left (that she knows of). The only people he might care about is Tripp and Eleanor and that hardly constitutes the whole group.
"...and to him Clementine can't be trusted and i agree with him ,it doesn't make you wrong, it means you're not trusting someone who lied to you. What's wrong with that?" Nothing's wrong with that. But we're not talking about trusting Clementine, are we? We're talking about trussing her up and hanging her out to dry.
Actually, she doesn't want to at first, but then decides to just to blackmail Javier in stealing his van which she knows is what he needs to… more survive, so she's willing to take him back to his family but leave them stranded just for her to better herself, is this the same Clementine in the previous seasons?
Not betraying, because you can go the whole season not trusting Clementine, so you're only talking for a gamer who sides with Clementine.
Lol nice excuse for Clementines personality. Just need to make an excuse for her current personality didn't you.
When someone lies, you can't trust them again, Clementine lied, and while Conrad held Gabe hostage, his looking out for the group and to him Clementine can't be trusted and i agree with him ,it doesn't make you wrong, it means you're not trusting someone who lied to you. What's wrong with that?
He panicked, they entered a tunnel and it was pitch dark and they didn't realise how many walkers were in there, it was a moment of desperation. He says that by giving Clementine to the new frontier it can help the girls, if he doesn't care about anyone, why did he help Javier get up the roof? Too be honest, im more disturbed at why so many people sided with Clementine considering she lied to us. It's saying that liars can get away with it as long as they re cute or a favourite character.
They knew the tunnel was crawling with walkers before he started shooting. You're full of double standards. It's ok for Conrad to threaten people to make them agree with his plan, but it's not ok for Clem to lie once? Clem also helps Javier and saves his life countless of times. At the junkyard, if you don't kill certain walkers she kills them for you and saves you in some occasions. She stays behind and covers you and/or your family. I'm not saying Conrad is a monster, I'm just saying Francine's death made him unstable and he is a danger to the group at that point. I wouldn't choose to shoot him if I had a third option, like retrain him or something, but there was no way I was agreeing with his plan and let him go back to the group with a gun in his hand.
As far as im concerned, i couldn't care if Clementine was killed
Yeah, it's pretty obvious from your comments that your problem is not that she "lied to us" is that she's Clementine and you seem to hate that some people love her and will protect her no matter what.
She could've pointed it at the ground, and don't forget, he pleaded with her to have batteries and she totattly wasn't interested.
She was pointing at him because he tricked her, gave her bad bullets that could cost her life and she thought all the bullets didn't work. She was trying to intimidate him. And let's not pretend he is some innocent little lamb here, he fucking pulled out a knife and tried to kill her, or are you forgetting that?
And im saying that regardlass of the target, he didn't need to, shooting someone and letting a liar go is wrong .
And I'm saying pulling a gun and point it at your nephew's head (when Conrad knows you just lost your niece) to make you go along with his plan of sentencing a girl who has been helping you to death, torture, slavery, etc. in the hopes that TNF will even listen and agree to help you, while letting that person go and rejoin the group like nothing happened and risk something like that again, is wrong.
Prisoner? She was ONE of them. If you choose not to go with the girl in the flashback, Clementine can say she wasn't interested but that they're persuasive. She had intentions to join their group.
You're right, WAS one of them. She clearly isn't anymore, since she's with you, killing members of TNF and clearly wants to avoid them. Being persuasive can mean a lot of things. It can mean they took AJ (since Ava knew about him) and made Clem join them. You don't know, so stop judging her before you get the whole story.
Like i have said on here, it's the fans that make me not want to get on board with her, because they're too biased.
Yeah, and you're too biased against her. That's not any better you know? From your comments, it's clear you are willing to give other characters that did shitty things the benefit of the doubt but since it's Clementine, she can go to hell. So I don't even know why I'm discussing this with you and wasting my time since you proved you are not willing to properly discuss her reasons for doing things because you hate her.
No i meant Gabe, not Conrad. You made a comment about Conrad shooting Gabe and Javier if you don't choose a decision, but it was a canon dea… moreth, like if you don't say anything to Kenny in the train, he kicks you out and you return and the group is all dead and Duck has turned into a walker and kills Lee, then it respawns back to the Kenny scene.
He panicked, they entered a tunnel and it was pitch dark and they didn't realise how many walkers were in there, it was a moment of desperation. He says that by giving Clementine to the new frontier it can help the girls, if he doesn't care about anyone, why did he help Javier get up the roof? Too be honest, im more disturbed at why so many people sided with Clementine considering she lied to us. It's saying that liars can get away with it as long as they re cute or a favourite character.
"You ain't a boy or girl, you're a living thing" - Chuck . You can't use the kid card excuse. As far as im co… [view original content]
Considering Javier was bounded, he was no threat to her, she had a gun on him, and i get the fact we dont have a decision for Clementine to walk away and leave, but we play as the game tells the story, and the story is that she didn't want to at first, but then decided to but blackmailed Javier that she'll take his car which you have the option to say that they need the car for survival. She's really doing none of them a favour, she takes him back to his family, but her plan is to leave them stranded a lone with no food or water or car. Not really caring considering she wants people caring for her i.e lie about Eli and shoot Conrad.
Well actually, she tells you after Javiers niece gets shot, and it's her choice to tell you, so it's her own doing and i chose to go with the family and had no scene of her telling me yet the game still played as if she did. Too her you're betraying her because she will always think that if you choose against her, but for me as Javier, im not because i haven't played through where me picking Conrad is betraying her. It's her own fault if she thinks that with the way i treated her. But it's the games way of trying to make us feel like we have to choose her over Conrad, making Conrad grab Gabe is begging us to kill him. That his a maniac asshole who needs to be killed and it makes people forget that Clementine lied and is trying so hard to avoid the interaction with the new frontier.
Obviously you cared to make a comment about it. And just a fyi, the comment was because you said she was "flaky as fuck", but said that it's better then Conrad because his was direct and hers was predictable. You said she was flaky but made an excuse for it to try and say well shes not bad like Conrad is.
Lee never mentioned the killing to anyone of the group. He gets confronted about it by Carley because she's a reporter, then when Clementine asks him he tells her the truth (but because shes only 8 he sugarcoats it) He tells Carley on the way to the dairy because she asks him and then when she says to him its best to tell people, he does depending on who the player chooses to pick, he never says to the group "there was a incident where my wife cheated on me with the senator" and then later says "by the way, i killed the guy". He does say he was on his way to prison but that was to Hershel and Hershel asks him who he was with, nothing to do with why.
Clementine on the other hand talks about the frontier about how they are and what they do, then says "hey, i was one of them" it's 2 different things.
Okay first off, not by choice means forced to be with them, she wasn't forced, she went on her own free will so that's a big lie of the bat and 2nd, Had she been straight up from the start, i highly doubt Javier would be as mad as when she told him later on, also, this was before the girls went to Richmond by themselves, so how do you know Conrad would use her ? The deal is to give them Clementine for the girls, if the girls aren't going to Richmond without knowing who's there, what else could they do? Shoot Clementine? Wouldn't be so bad.
Eleanor and Kate at the time have went to Richmond, we don't know what's happened to them, he says if we use Clementine, we can make a deal with them pretty much, he cares more for them then Clementine does, If you side with Conrad, he comes with us to try and make a deal, Clementine? She leaves us, she showed no care for the 2 women, only herself, how you can she cares when she does that is beyond me.
Hey, remember, she lied to us, and because the episodes arne't out yet, we don't know what her connection was with them, she said she was made by her not having a choice when she did it for herself, she can reject the girls offer but then said they were very persuasive, so how do we know there isn't more to this story then we already know?
"Actually, she doesn't want to at first..." Ok, I'm not entirely sure which part of my post you are addressing here but I think it's the par… moret about her risking her butt to help you, so that's what I'm gonna assume until you say otherwise. Like I said, she's flaky as fuck and if I had the option to try to escape at that point I would have done it. But this is normal behavior in The Walking Dead Universe when having a run in with a stranger, so I don't really hold it against her. Really, most people would have just shot you instead.
"Not betraying, because you can go the whole season not trusting Clementine, so you're only talking for a gamer who sides with Clementine." Actually, I'm talking as a gamer who has done both on multiple playthroughs; but that's irreverent. It's not about you not trusting her, it's about her trusting you enough to tell you about her past and as soon as she does you use it against her, that's what makes it a betray… [view original content]
Did you not see how many were there when he started shooting? No, i never said him grabbing Gabe was good, but it all revolved around her, and the fact she lied. She shouldve been straight from the start. Thats what a group does, they help each other, what about Javier when she had fake bullets? Or lying for her when she shot Eli? Seeing how if you shoot him she takes off and leaves you, that's enough evdience to prove that she's in for herself.
My comment meant if she was killed, i wouldn't care and bitch like all the clementine fans would and say " we riot if she dies". Big deal, we have other characters, it's not all about her.
Again, listen to what i say he pleaded with her to the trade, she had already scared him, he was pleading, she didn't have to pull the trigger, and if she did, she shouldve done it on the ground, how can you say that pulling the trigger and shoving a gun in someones face is right? Biased much?
See, you go on about how it's bad for Conrad to hold up Gabe (which i agree) but then you end it with that clementine will ge tortured. If she lies, that's her fault, not ours. if she did something to that group she should have to pay for what she did.
And you don't know either, so stop making accusations that you don't know. Until we find out what happened we both don't have a leg to stand on, i could say to you "how do we know there isn't more to the story" im speculation just as much as you are, so lets wait and see what happens.
Not true, and maybe you shouldn't jump the gun without knowing your facts, i've stood up for Clementine in the past 2 seasons, but this season, she's deserved no sympathy. She tried to blackmail us in taking our car, lied to us about her involvement with the new frontier, shot a man unarmed in cold blood then begged us to lie for her, wanted us to stay and fight instead of worrying about our family, runs off if you kill Conrad and shows no respect for the Eleanor and Kate. Tell me again why i should like her in this season?
He panicked, they entered a tunnel and it was pitch dark and they didn't realise how many walkers were in there, it was a moment of desperat… moreion. He says that by giving Clementine to the new frontier it can help the girls, if he doesn't care about anyone, why did he help Javier get up the roof? Too be honest, im more disturbed at why so many people sided with Clementine considering she lied to us. It's saying that liars can get away with it as long as they re cute or a favourite character.
They knew the tunnel was crawling with walkers before he started shooting. You're full of double standards. It's ok for Conrad to threaten people to make them agree with his plan, but it's not ok for Clem to lie once? Clem also helps Javier and saves his life countless of times. At the junkyard, if you don't kill certain walkers she kills them for you and saves you in some occasions. She stays behind and covers you and/or your family. I'm not saying … [view original content]
Traitors are to be punished by death. The one who offers, no DEMANDS, to sell one of his community members, and he knows that they will brut… moreally butcher this person, is a traitor. And, even if we ignore the fact that Clem was main character before, and treat her as brand new person, she helped Javi and others. Or, do you think that if they'd hand Clem to New frontier still at the gates, they won't pillage their town and torment Conrad's wife just for fun? Sure they would! Who'd miss the chance to rob when having enough firepower, in those conditions? They killed that girl (don't remember name, Javi's niece) just for fun, they saw she was an unarmed child! And to betray one of your own to make piece with fascists?! What's there to think about?
Well, we still don't know what Clem did to enrage them so much. Maybe in next episodes we will find out that she killed and ate all their babies. Now, that is something completely different. But, unti… [view original content]
Did you not see how many were there when he started shooting?
Exactly, there were many. Someone even says "they are everywhere!". The fact that you can see dozens of them with just a few flashlights, is not a good sign. So shooting a shotgun is the most stupid and irresponsible thing you could ever do in that situation. You are going to kill what? One or two? But then the whole herd is going after you.
No, i never said him grabbing Gabe was good, but it all revolved around her, and the fact she lied. She shouldve been straight from the start. Thats what a group does, they help each other, what about Javier when she had fake bullets? Or lying for her when she shot Eli?
What you're saying doesn't even make any sense. You are saying a person lying about something is worse than a person threatening to kill a member of your family, of the group. I don't even know what you mean with "what about Javier when she had fake bullets". Javier's life was also at risk because he was with her when the bullets didn't work. And she can even say "it could've gotten both of us killed". The reason why my Javier covered for Clem was because it was an accident, she didn't do it on purpose and she was the one taking Javier back to the junkyard. Besides, I didn't see a reason to defend a dead asshole that just tried to kill both Javi and Clem.
"Thats what a group does" oh and threatening to kill one of the members of said group while taking another as hostage is what a group does?
Seeing how if you shoot him she takes off and leaves you, that's enough evdience to prove that she's in for herself.
When she tells you the truth she says she can't let TNF see her and that she's leaving either way. Like I said, we don't know what happened between her and them so you can't really judge right now.
My comment meant if she was killed, i wouldn't care and bitch like all the clementine fans would and say " we riot if she dies". Big deal, we have other characters, it's not all about her.
Okay.... And? That's your opinion. If other people would get mad, it's their opinion. What's your point? You still obviously hate Clem, so my point stands.
Again, listen to what i say he pleaded with her to the trade, she had already scared him, he was pleading, she didn't have to pull the trigger, and if she did, she shouldve done it on the ground, how can you say that pulling the trigger and shoving a gun in someones face is right? Biased much?
Again, listen to what I said. She didn't know some of the bullets would work. Which is why she was pointing the gun at him and pulling the trigger. She wanted bullets that would work, she didn't want the batteries back. Again, it was an accident, she didn't want to kill him. I'm not saying what she did was right, pointing a gun at someone, even when a gun is not loaded is dangerous. But you're acting like she had all the intentions in the world in killing him.
See, you go on about how it's bad for Conrad to hold up Gabe (which i agree) but then you end it with that clementine will ge tortured. If she lies, that's her fault, not ours. if she did something to that group she should have to pay for what she did.
I said it was mistake from her part to lie, obviously, but I can understand why she did. And she then fixed it by telling the truth a few hours later. She didn't put anyone in danger. Yes, she can be tortured because TNF has proved they have no problems in killing kids. It's not her fault that a crazy asshole pulls a gun on her and makes Javier accept a plan that takes her right into the middle of the people she's trying to avoid.
And you don't know either, so stop making accusations that you don't know. Until we find out what happened we both don't have a leg to stand on, i could say to you "how do we know there isn't more to the story" im speculation just as much as you are, so lets wait and see what happens.
Lol are you serious right now? Read your own comments and take your own advice. I'm not accusing anyone, you are! You are the one accusing Clem that she lied and deserves all the bad things coming her way for lying once. And you're assuming the worst because she joined TNF. I'm only giving her the benefit of the doubt, which you are not willing to do because you hate her or hate her fans, or whatever your reason is. I am accusing Conrad for what he did and I have every right to because, good intentions or not, he put Javier's family in danger and threatened to kill his nephew. That's not how shit works. You don't make people agree to your plans. That's not how groups work and if you can't understand that then GTFO. That's how I see it.
Not true, and maybe you shouldn't jump the gun without knowing your facts, i've stood up for Clementine in the past 2 seasons, but this season, she's deserved no sympathy. She tried to blackmail us in taking our car, lied to us about her involvement with the new frontier, shot a man unarmed in cold blood then begged us to lie for her, wanted us to stay and fight instead of worrying about our family, runs off if you kill Conrad and shows no respect for the Eleanor and Kate. Tell me again why i should like her in this season?
No one is talking about past season though. I already gave my reasons in the link on my first post (I doubt you read the whole thing but if you want to know my opinion go read it because I'm not going to repeat myself). If you don't agree with it, fine, it's your opinion. It's not a matter of liking her or not, it's a matter of understanding her reasons, even if you don't agree with it, but it seems you have no intentions to do.
Did you not see how many were there when he started shooting? No, i never said him grabbing Gabe was good, but it all revolved around her, a… morend the fact she lied. She shouldve been straight from the start. Thats what a group does, they help each other, what about Javier when she had fake bullets? Or lying for her when she shot Eli? Seeing how if you shoot him she takes off and leaves you, that's enough evdience to prove that she's in for herself.
My comment meant if she was killed, i wouldn't care and bitch like all the clementine fans would and say " we riot if she dies". Big deal, we have other characters, it's not all about her.
Again, listen to what i say he pleaded with her to the trade, she had already scared him, he was pleading, she didn't have to pull the trigger, and if she did, she shouldve done it on the ground, how can you say that pulling the trigger and shoving a gun in someones face is right? Biased much?
See, you go o… [view original content]
I agreed with Conrad because I didn't want any bloodshed. I was hoping we could lie to him to let him cool down but when Javier actually gave Clemntine to the New Frontier, I was like "well, shit". It had taught me to take responsibility for my words.
I still don't know whether I should redo this choice or not. I do regret it, but changing my playthrough seems like cheating.
Yes, i can understand your way of thinking. Personally, I choose to shoot him because for me, after the death of his niece and Kate's injury, Javier could not just let go of what Conrad did. And he couldn't send a child to death. It's true that Clementine lied to us, but finally she told us the truth, and she didn't have to. If she wanted, she could have just left us before we get to Richmond, without any explanation. But she chose to be honest with us.
I find it ironic that many people are angry with her because of her lie, when in reality it's because of her honesty that all this mess with Conrad starts.
But yeah, I understand the reasons why some people choose to betray her. My comment was mostly for those who think that shoot Conrad is just fanboyism with Clem.
For Duck, I didn't remember that it was so obvious that he wasn't bitten, but I believe you.
Good points, to me as im playing i think to myself
"Okay, Conrad has Gabe hostage, that's a bad thing to do, But i also think that shootin… moreg Conrad doesn't sit well with me because i feel it's to far too shoot someone and let Clementine who lied to Javier free" Now, if Clementine hadn't lied and she was honest straight up and Conrad had been a dick the whole time, i would've shot him but he saved Javier, and Clementine lied about the new frontier, so to me it makes sense to agree with his plans. Im also looking out for the others like the girls, and how Tripp feels because if you kill Conrad, it effects Tripp as well.
Well we see Duck not get bitten, the walker is on top of him, and when Carely shoots him, you clearly see Duck is not bitten, so weather we trust Kenny or Not, we know for a fact Duck wasn't bitten, so if he wasn't bitten and someone accuses him off been, we say the truth. It's a bit different to the Conrad thiing.
I meant as in because there was so many, he panicked, he had a gun, there were heaps of them so he shot a few, when you panic, you don't think properly. You just can't seem to let this guy catch a break, everything he does seems to be negative. I suppose him pulling Javier up was bad to right.
I said him holding Gabe was bad and does he shoot Gabe? Take the canon death out, does he? Yes or no? You were going on about how she saved Javier multiple times , the fake bullets thing was who saved her when they didnt work? Javier, my point is that people have saved Clementine as well. Eli may have been an asshole, but he didnt deserve to be shot. He pulled a knife out, got restrained, was unarmed and she pointed the gun in his face and pulled the trigger, she doesn't deserve someones lies to cover up for her, she needs to be made accountable for what she has done.
When that group member lies about her background story, yes it does. She runs off if you kill Conrad, what does that say about her character.
Exactly, we have to wait but the fact that she doesnt want them to see proves she doesnt want something to come out. Not shifty at all.
And thats YOUR opinion on who i hate and who i don't. Like i said, it's the fans that ruin it.
That's why you point the gun at the ground, Remember what Lee said about how you only aim the gun at someone when you want to hurt them. She couldve shot the gun at the ground and go "see, they don't work" Yes, she wanted bullets, not batteries but he was willing a trade back regardless, she didn't want to hear it and she was reckless.
If she didn;t lie, Conrad wouldn't of done what he did. His motive was because Clementine lied, she put them all in danger, you can say "Conrad did it by grabbing Gabe" But would he have done it if she didn't say that? If she said it at the start like she should've, the whole of prescott would've decided what to do and don't forget, Conrad's girlfriend was still alive, so he wouldn't of flipped out that bad.
What nerve did i hit there? You got pretty fired up. And guess what? You don't lie, and have people give you the benefit of the doubt because they're biased towards you, that's not how the world works. I think you should read your own comments, that was because you told me i don't know and i replied with neither do you, truth, no? My complaint is because she lied, i don't know what happened, i have said that it MUST be bad if she's avoiding it, why else would she want to?
No it does matter, you're claiming that i hate her and all this stuff, yet im clearly telling you that i liked Clementine in earlier seasons, you just expected me to not say i liked her, so you're trying to discard it because it makes you look bad, nice try. Why would i want to read the whole thing,? I read your motive on Conrad, and that's all i wanted to read, cheers.
Did you not see how many were there when he started shooting?
Exactly, there were many. Someone even says "they are everywhere!". Th… moree fact that you can see dozens of them with just a few flashlights, is not a good sign. So shooting a shotgun is the most stupid and irresponsible thing you could ever do in that situation. You are going to kill what? One or two? But then the whole herd is going after you.
No, i never said him grabbing Gabe was good, but it all revolved around her, and the fact she lied. She shouldve been straight from the start. Thats what a group does, they help each other, what about Javier when she had fake bullets? Or lying for her when she shot Eli?
What you're saying doesn't even make any sense. You are saying a person lying about something is worse than a person threatening to kill a member of your family, of the group. I don't even know what you mean with "what about Javier when she had fake bullets… [view original content]
I admit I did that too with Jesus. I mean, Javier just met this shady looking guy that tricked him and pointed a gun to his head yet I still decided to choose to trust him because he's one of the good guys in the comics.
You know, the same thing can be said about you. You just can't seem to let this girl catch a break, everything she does seems to be negative. I suppose she staying behind to cover for you and your family was bad too, right.
It's not about if he shot Gabe or not. It's about him pointing a gun at his head, threatening his life, to make Javier agree with his plan. I didn't say Eli deserved to get shot. I didn't say what Clementine did was right. I simply said she didn't mean to do it, it was an accident. My Javier didn't see a reason to be a self-righteous asshole and throw her under the bus when she was the one who was going to take him back to his family. That's my opinion. Do with it as you please.
She doesn't run off because you killed Conrad. Are you even reading what I'm writing? And have you actually listened to what she said when she told the truth? She said she was going to leave even before Conrad pointed a gun at her. She said she couldn't let TNF see her. Again, we don't know why. We don't know what happened so you're letting your hatred for her get the better of you and you're jumping to conclusions.
It doesn't prove anything. You're just speculating.
Sorry but that's a bit childish, hating a character just because others love her unconditionally. Can you not think for yourself and not let others influence your opinion on things? What does it matter if people play their games thinking of Clem's safety? Just play your game, be an asshole to Clem, who cares? Just stop complaining about how others play theirs.
Doesn't change the fact that it was an accident and that she didn't mean to kill him.
Lmao how the heck did she put them in danger by lying she was ONCE part of TNF? You're just grasping at straws now. TNF went to Prescott because Javier stole and killed some of their guys, this has literally nothing to do with Clem. Conrad's girlfriend is dead and Prescott fell because of Badger. You seem to believe Conrad gives a shit about Javi or his family. Well, he proved he doesn't care about Gabe, otherwise he wouldn't threatened to kill him. And he obviously doesn't care about Javi, otherwise he wouldn't threaten his nephew either. So why would he care about Kate when he didn't even speak to her at all? And what he says during that whole confrontation is: "We bring her to Richmond, they give us whatever we want. Medical help for Kate." and then later on he says "This helps both of us." So it's clear his reasons aren't the same. He's just trying to make Javier agree to his plan by bringing up Kate, but he doesn't give a shit about her and that's not why he wants to bring Clem to them. I'll gladly eat my words if this turns out to be wrong, but I highly doubt it. Just watch, he will do something stupid next episode, like open fire inside TNF or something and it will get him killed.
Sorry, you already proved you hate Clem in season 3 and that you will always side against her because "the fans ruined her for you". It's pretty obvious reading your comments too. I give you solid arguments to Clem's reasons and you just ignore it and say "but but- she lied!!1!!" so yeah, not very convincing.
I meant as in because there was so many, he panicked, he had a gun, there were heaps of them so he shot a few, when you panic, you don't thi… morenk properly. You just can't seem to let this guy catch a break, everything he does seems to be negative. I suppose him pulling Javier up was bad to right.
I said him holding Gabe was bad and does he shoot Gabe? Take the canon death out, does he? Yes or no? You were going on about how she saved Javier multiple times , the fake bullets thing was who saved her when they didnt work? Javier, my point is that people have saved Clementine as well. Eli may have been an asshole, but he didnt deserve to be shot. He pulled a knife out, got restrained, was unarmed and she pointed the gun in his face and pulled the trigger, she doesn't deserve someones lies to cover up for her, she needs to be made accountable for what she has done.
When that group member lies about her background story, yes it does. She runs of… [view original content]
I can definitively say the saying the truth got her in trouble, that's why Conrad completely lost it. Actually he started to lost it a little earlier when he fired a goddamn shotgun in a tunnel full of walkers. That, to me is much more dangerous to the group than Clementine not saying the whole truth. Actually I can accept lies if telling the truth that could endanger the safety of loved ones, and clearly Clem is hiding AJ's existence to the group and for good reason. I clearly don't share your view that lying is a criminal offense but to each his own, I guess.
I hope telltale is going to show me something that makes me believe that this is the character I shaped in 2 seasons. Why and how did she change so much that she acts more like Jane when that's not how I played her at all.
Again if people choose to act because they act Clementine, that's their reason. Where's the harm in that? In season 1 we acted as a father figure to her, then in season 2 we directly controlled her, so maybe people thinks she's not that bad and can be trustworthy because they know her. Maybe Javier wouldn't but again so all character who think he's their buddies and their leader. Tripp has more experience with Prescott but he says "you're the boss". That just doesn't make any sense.
Conrad to me is mostly looking for revenge and since he's determinant, either he will had some lines before his death or he will provoke people someone like Badger and end up the same way as Mari.
She told Javier about the new frontier, about what they did and she even (if you stay with Clementine) fought of the guys with Javier. Then … moreshe tells him as they're almost at the new frontier, that she was apart of them, she said all this stuff about them, fought them off then just says "Oh, i was apart of them at one stage" Considering what they did to Javiers family and that the girls had drove to their base, what do you really expect Javier would be like? Oh, that's cool Clementine, nothing malice in t. She lied, liars deserve no respect no matter who you are. I said him taking Gabe was bad, but it's either agree with Conrad, or Shoot him, and im not gonna kill the guy when he grabbed Gabe because his motive was because of Clementine. In the end, imo agreeing with him is the best choice, think about the effect of the other members of the group if you kill him.
I took it as if she was hiding something, but that's just me. And to add to t… [view original content]
With the difference being we weren't able to act in the instance they grabbed Clementine by the hair. If we had a gun in the dining room I bet my ass people would've shot Andy and Danny because it was an immediate threat.
You might not see a difference there, I do. I differentiate between immediate threat, and past threats.
As in Conrad is an immediate threat, whether or not you agree with the plan objectively, and Andy/Danny were a past threat. Killing them then, while being incapacitated, would be vengeance.
Do you mean back off as in the punching? You can punch him a few times, then when the cut scene finishs and you;re back to punching, you can… more stop and then you'll get off him. So, you punch him at the start because if you don't, he'll flip you over but after the cut scene, he can't defend himself, butpeople still punched him because to some they thought it was funny seeing his face fucked up.
He still wanted to fight, he might've been beaten, but he was willing to keep fighting. Im saying that if you kill the brothers, it has an effect on Clementine and people didn't want to do it. I mean, you're saying the thing about Javier and Gabe, yet your ultimate choice was because of Clementine the liar.
Yeah it's a canon death, not part of the storyline.
Don't forget, Andy held a gun to 2 kdis heads and could've killed them at anytime, what about Andy grabbing a 8 year old girls hair and yanking her back? Conrad was trying to agree to a plan to… [view original content]
There is one point though. When she got a car, and brought Javier back to Prescott, she could've just left if she didn't give a shit. But what did she do? She waited at the car, probably for Javier giving the OK. She could've left then and avoided The New Frontier, which would've resulted in Javier's death, because Clementine was the one who took the shot on the woman that held a gun to Javi's head.
Considering Javier was bounded, he was no threat to her, she had a gun on him, and i get the fact we dont have a decision for Clementine to … morewalk away and leave, but we play as the game tells the story, and the story is that she didn't want to at first, but then decided to but blackmailed Javier that she'll take his car which you have the option to say that they need the car for survival. She's really doing none of them a favour, she takes him back to his family, but her plan is to leave them stranded a lone with no food or water or car. Not really caring considering she wants people caring for her i.e lie about Eli and shoot Conrad.
Well actually, she tells you after Javiers niece gets shot, and it's her choice to tell you, so it's her own doing and i chose to go with the family and had no scene of her telling me yet the game still played as if she did. Too her you're betraying her because she will always think that if you choose against h… [view original content]
Because later on you could possibly use him? Shooting Conrad there IMO was the most weakest option. But many players are generally too narrow minded and don't think outside of the box and pick the easiest ever choices to appeal to Clem. Because Clem you know.
Oh well at least he doesn't have to put up with the horror of walking dead fanfiction new frontier any more.
Seriously though, why in the… more hell would ANY players give a shit about this random guy and his wife dying or possibly consider siding with him over Clementine with a plan that sounds dumb even if you've just met both characters.
How am I doing that, exactly? Because I said that "You don't know why people do what they do, you can only know what they told you"? This is not "pretending to know what goes in people's heads", this is a fact, unless you are a mind reader and actually do know what goes in other people's heads.
I am going exactly by what people are saying their motives are, while telling you my own, while you are accusing people of lying about their motives. When someone says their reasons to do something are X, and you say "no, your actual reasons are Y", you ARE pretending you know what goes in their heads, while you do not. I did not at any point say the motives of anyone were different from what they said they were. You are not only doing that, you are actually being extremely rude and offensive while doing that.
That's exactly what I'm saying. You made up a justification for what they did as to try to align two completely different situations and claimed that to be the truth for everybody. This is simply false. You are saying people are lying about their reasons. How can you possibly know?
You are pretending the situation is about "this character did X", while the situation is actually "this character was doing X at the time we were given the choice to kill them" as to justify the way you tried to make the situations equal, while they are not.
Have you not read this entire thread? Have you not seen the people saying they shot him because of Clementine? lol, pro Gabe and not pro clementine? I suggest you re edit that and save yourself further embarrassment.
I said MY upvoted posts (the ones I posted, the ones posted by ME and upvoted by other people) were all pro-Gabe. This is the truth, and you can quote my posts that were pro-Clementine if you wish. You will find none because I posted none, because as I said before I don't care about Clem, but go ahead and do it. Find one single post I posted that is pro-Clem.
Haha wow, so now you're boasting about your opinion in the game, that's rich when you've tried to lecture me about my opinion being better then everyone else, it's get better each comment.
"Boasting"? Where did you even get that from? No, I am explaining my choices. And my opinion on the game is regarding MY actions and MY reasons. That's the difference. Your opinion is that "everybody is lying about their motives and they are hypocrites if they killed this character but not the other", they are regarding other people's actions and their reasons to do so. I did not at any point "tried to lecture you" about your opinion on the game, at all times I only pointed out how your opinion on other people's actions was biased.
And I don't know if I posted this on this thread already, but I surely did post on other threads, but I am of the opinion that all of the major decisions on episode 1 and 2 make sense one way or the other, so I find nothing wrong with your decision to keep Conrad alive, if that's what you are saying I "tried to lecture you" on. I do have an issue with you saying that your decision is the only good one and saying everybody else is wrong and are hypocrites for making the other decision, because they "must be lying about their motives". And that's the big difference. Also, you are STILL calling me names and being overall aggravating for no reason.
I'm with you on this, as I tried to explain my view on shooting Conrad and also on the comparison with St. Johns and Conrad.
But, c'mon man, how can you not care about our Clementine!?
How am I doing that, exactly? Because I said that "You don't know why people do what they do, you can only know what they told you"? This is… more not "pretending to know what goes in people's heads", this is a fact, unless you are a mind reader and actually do know what goes in other people's heads.
I am going exactly by what people are saying their motives are, while telling you my own, while you are accusing people of lying about their motives. When someone says their reasons to do something are X, and you say "no, your actual reasons are Y", you ARE pretending you know what goes in their heads, while you do not. I did not at any point say the motives of anyone were different from what they said they were. You are not only doing that, you are actually being extremely rude and offensive while doing that.
That's exactly what I'm saying. You made up a justification for what they did as to try to align two completely different situations and c… [view original content]
I'm sorry, I know people care for her a lot, but there are some characters that I just can't get invested on
I don't dislike her, and I don't think that she is a bad character by any means. I think she is well-written, I think her voice acting is great, but I just don't care for her any more than I would care for any other character.
I think it is mostly because I didn't "do the waiting" on the first two seasons. I bought the whole seasons when everything was out, and I think that greatly diminished my enjoyment of both of the seasons and also my attachment to the characters. The only character I really, really cared for was Luke. Maybe Lee. Today, I consider the waiting between episodes and discussing them in the forums absolutely essential to the "TellTale experience".
I'm with you on this, as I tried to explain my view on shooting Conrad and also on the comparison with St. Johns and Conrad.
But, c'mon man, how can you not care about our Clementine!?
Sheesh, does EVERY player have this mindset about characters? If so, there is no hope for humanity =_=
Mourning and holding grudges is NOT whining. They are holding grudges and mourning with good reason; so many people have lost the ones they care about and love, and if it were you in their shoes (not running away in them, mind you) you would react the same way. You ALWAYS need someone to blame but yourself, someone to take the anger out on. That's not whining.
By definition, actually, whining is either a loud and high pitched sound or a feeble complaint. I hardly call mourning a complaint.
Boring whiny character holding another moody character hostage while threatening a character I used to like before she got plastic surgery s… moreo we can maybe save a druggy stoned mom and her "doctor" friend.
Pretty easy choice, shoot whiny character and continue. Even if I was invested what was the worse that could happen
Comments
But he doesn't die though if you agree with him.
The person's post was in favour of Clementine, and saying to me , who am i to chose this and that? That's not attacking me?
Back to my point, the persons response was just to favour Clementine, without adding that the girl killed the man in cold blood.
Like i said, if i started swearing and abusing the person ,that would be attacking, did i insult and abuse the person?
Sorry stating the truth to you means it attacking someone. Next time i'll lie like that person and 90% of the people did for Clementine after Elis death, oops.
Actually, she doesn't want to at first, but then decides to just to blackmail Javier in stealing his van which she knows is what he needs to survive, so she's willing to take him back to his family but leave them stranded just for her to better herself, is this the same Clementine in the previous seasons?
Not betraying, because you can go the whole season not trusting Clementine, so you're only talking for a gamer who sides with Clementine.
Lol nice excuse for Clementines personality. Just need to make an excuse for her current personality didn't you.
When someone lies, you can't trust them again, Clementine lied, and while Conrad held Gabe hostage, his looking out for the group and to him Clementine can't be trusted and i agree with him ,it doesn't make you wrong, it means you're not trusting someone who lied to you. What's wrong with that?
Do you mean back off as in the punching? You can punch him a few times, then when the cut scene finishs and you;re back to punching, you can stop and then you'll get off him. So, you punch him at the start because if you don't, he'll flip you over but after the cut scene, he can't defend himself, butpeople still punched him because to some they thought it was funny seeing his face fucked up.
He still wanted to fight, he might've been beaten, but he was willing to keep fighting. Im saying that if you kill the brothers, it has an effect on Clementine and people didn't want to do it. I mean, you're saying the thing about Javier and Gabe, yet your ultimate choice was because of Clementine the liar.
Yeah it's a canon death, not part of the storyline.
Don't forget, Andy held a gun to 2 kdis heads and could've killed them at anytime, what about Andy grabbing a 8 year old girls hair and yanking her back? Conrad was trying to agree to a plan to help the girls, Andy did it to eat the kids and everyone. Tell me who is really the worse person
You know you can argue on and on about how you dont trust clementine but most players do.
Even if you dont trust her your really saying you trust conrad more than her
Of course he has a right not to trust her, it's normal not to trust strangers what I meant is him using someone as a bargaining chip against their will. If she wants to leave so much, just let her go. she doesn't owe them anything and he doesn't have to trust her in return therefore she has a right to have her secrets just like him. It wasn't up to Conrad to decide for her what she wanted to do for herself. Yeah it was annoying, just like using their grief as an excuse to act like jerks to others but at least it's much more believable than everybody instantly trusting Javier and act like if he's the leader of the group no matter what you do.
You don't trust her, fine. Thanks to her reaction when she learned about the New Frontier taking over Richmond and the following flashback, I do. Like I said, neutrality is almost always the best option, so I don't try to act like I'm biased toward my family. I won't force anyone to do anything against their will.
Actually I like season 2 and 3 so far but it lost a lot of details that I loved in season 1, doesn't mean I won't criticized them. Hating games is pointless if you ask me and a complete wast of time.
You thinking every decisions is about us just making excuses for Clementine.
Well in one of my save file she should have, I never had her steal or kill anybody but I guess it was too hard for them to make a different line depending on your previous decisions but I least I recognize her wanting to help people in need but when the time comes she finds her own way, so there's that.
As for Eli, she didn't know the bullet would work hence her shock when the gun actually the second time. If he truly feared for his life he wouldn't have acted so smug about her proving he traded her the bullets and when she pointed the gun at him. Too bad there was no variation of her not being phased by his death, would have been interesting to see.
Maybe she'll be the one to kill Conrad for using her in one playthrough or watching him being killed without doing anything to help, there's a lot of possibilities with the ending of episode 2. Hopefully they don't screw it up.
Traitors are to be punished by death. The one who offers, no DEMANDS, to sell one of his community members, and he knows that they will brutally butcher this person, is a traitor. And, even if we ignore the fact that Clem was main character before, and treat her as brand new person, she helped Javi and others. Or, do you think that if they'd hand Clem to New frontier still at the gates, they won't pillage their town and torment Conrad's wife just for fun? Sure they would! Who'd miss the chance to rob when having enough firepower, in those conditions? They killed that girl (don't remember name, Javi's niece) just for fun, they saw she was an unarmed child! And to betray one of your own to make piece with fascists?! What's there to think about?
Well, we still don't know what Clem did to enrage them so much. Maybe in next episodes we will find out that she killed and ate all their babies. Now, that is something completely different. But, until I see absolute proof of something like this, I'll treat her as good side, that should be protected, and new frontier as evil that should be opposed.
This is probably my second biggest issue with the season... Clementine is involved in a lot of the choices, and it of course will influence the results. I really hope this isn't a build up to something similar to what they did with Kenny in Season 2, because that was one of the reasons that season didn't hold up for me. There was too much "side with the older character, or the newer character" moments. I do love Season 3 better than Season 2 so far though, and can only hope they don't make the same mistake that disappointed me previously.
calm down, clem isnt gonna die ffs
Where did I imply that?
true love
"The person's post was in favour of Clementine, and saying to me , who am i to chose this and that? That's not attacking me?" No, it's not. They were pointing out that you are not the arbiter of what is or is not morally justifiable, any more than any other player. That is not a denigration of your character, nor is it trying to invalidate your choice. You seem to be under the false impression that someone having a different opinion of what's right and wrong from yours is somehow an indictment of you personally.
"The persons response was just to favour Clementine, without adding that the girl killed the man in cold blood" This is a fallacy known as 'Begging the Question,' you're taking your conclusion (that it was done in cold blood) and trying to use it as a premise. Why would they add that Clem killed Eli in cold blood when their entire argument was made in opposition of that assertion? You haven't convinced them yet. And again, you accuse them of arguing in bad faith due to a bias towards Clem, but completely ignore the actual argument itself, which is as follows: "I felt her killing the guy was justified because he almost got Clem killed with the bullets he sold her, then tried to stab her and Javi." This is what you should be arguing against if you want to gain any ground.
"If i started swearing and abusing the person ,that would be attacking, did i insult and abuse the person?" You seem to be misunderstanding what I mean by the word 'attacking,' so let me make myself clear. It is not an accusation of being inflammatory, you do not have to be using curse words to be attacking someones character. What I'm saying is that what you are doing is trying to attribute what you perceive to be a character flaw, i.e. being a clementine fanatic, to them and using that to dismiss their argument out of hand. That is the ad hominem fallacy I was referring to in my previous post.
I dont trust Conrad 100%, but i trust him a lot more then Clementine.
She's lied to Javier, Conrad, while he did to Gabe what he did, hasn't lied to us about his involvement like she has. Im playing as Javier, and with what Clementine has done, she has granted no reason why he should trust her.
wrong comment sorry
She told Javier about the new frontier, about what they did and she even (if you stay with Clementine) fought of the guys with Javier. Then she tells him as they're almost at the new frontier, that she was apart of them, she said all this stuff about them, fought them off then just says "Oh, i was apart of them at one stage" Considering what they did to Javiers family and that the girls had drove to their base, what do you really expect Javier would be like? Oh, that's cool Clementine, nothing malice in t. She lied, liars deserve no respect no matter who you are. I said him taking Gabe was bad, but it's either agree with Conrad, or Shoot him, and im not gonna kill the guy when he grabbed Gabe because his motive was because of Clementine. In the end, imo agreeing with him is the best choice, think about the effect of the other members of the group if you kill him.
I took it as if she was hiding something, but that's just me. And to add to the fact that she was trying hard to escape the situation of having to go face to face with them to. I feel like she's panicking because she has other stuff to hide, maybe to do with aj? i dont know because the episodes aren't out, maybe it is just her not wanting to go their because they were bad people, but i got the vibe she's hiding something.
That's why i don't hate them, there's stuff in them i didn't like of course, but i enjoy these games. That's what pissed me off when i saw people whinging about Javier because of Clementine, we need to enjoy it because the alternative, is there is no games.
The majority of the decisions are, in Conrads case it is because the options the are the majority are Clementine or Gabe. I've lost count how many times ive heard someone say "No one does that to my clemy".
I don't know why telltale is making her reckless, there's a difference betwenn her being a badass and reckless. Clementine in the first 2 seasons would never point a gun at a unarmed guys face or lie about something serious.
Well, she couldve pointed it at the ground, she didn't need to point at his face, and you can see he was very scared, he was begging her to take the batteries, but she refused and pulled the trigger, i guess Eli probably didn't expect her to pull the trigger.
Given his determinant, i can't see him lasting long, so probably be something like that and if you side with him, it'll have an effect on the relationship with her two, like if you sided with Kenny or Lily, the relationship varies depending on who you sided with.
That's rich dude, really. Because my opinion isn't a biased Clementine fan, it's them who have the false impression. Tell me, you're not that naive. Everytime someone has a opinion that isn't biased towards her, they cop shit. Don't believe me? Look at this thread, look at the youtube comments of people saying something negative about her. This person commented on here attacking me because said person is a Clementine fan, if i didn't say nothing negative, they wouldn't of said anything.
I don't need to argue, because when someone types what they believe, but can't respond back, then i know it was just a typical "ill post a comment, but then ill be too scared to reply" because people are scared of confrontations real life and internet. This person can reply back at anytime but choose not to but ill be in your little mind youll say "Oh, but you didn't write a response, you bashed them ,so why should they reply". White knight alert.
Ill make it real simple for you okay? This person is talking out of a biased opinion towards a character he/she is biased between. Said person is justifying someone shooting someone in cold blood because that person "almost got people killed", Now, Clementine shot a man in cold blood who was unarmed and begged to trade back. This person fails to mention this because they're trying to make it sound like Clementine is all clear and saying ti's alright for her to shoot him. Did he dog her with the bullets? Yes. Is it acceptable for her to shoot an unarmed man in cold blood? N o it is not. There is no justification in it.
It's not perceiving if it's facts dude. The person is a Clementine fan , i was merely being a smart ass indication points why, And don't think the person was being respectable to me saying what gives you the right blah blah blah. Smart ass comments get smart ass replies, fairs fair. In Clementine fans cases though, it's all about protecting her. Even if she kills someone unarmed in cold blood.
(Sorry for my English, I'm french)
I really think that, even if you want to play as if you only had Javier's knowledge about Clementine, shoot Conrad is still a choice that make sense.
Most of the people talking about that choice are too pragmatic for me : they are like "we only know Clem since one day, we can possibly save our family if we betray her, so let's do it"
Things are not that simple. Even if it's true that Conrad's plan can save Javier's family, it's not an easy choice to make to sacrife a child for that. Because yes, that's what Clem is : a child. And she saved his life !
And Javier saw what The New Frontier did to his niece , so he knows that they are capable to kill a child without any hesitation.
I think that, in this situation, anyone would ask themselves : "what does this choice make of me ? What kind of person I want to be". And it depends on how you want Javier to be. We don't have the same Javier.
So both choices make sense for me.
It's like in season 1 episode 1, when we didn't know if Duck was beaten or not. The pragmatic choice would have been to agree with Larry. After all, we only met Kenny's family in the morning, and if Duck was beaten it would have been a real problem for everyone. But still, my Lee couldn't agree with killing a child, even if it put everyone in danger. To kill a child is not an easy choice to make.
I'm saying, if he CAN die in that moment, he is a determinant character, therefore you can bet he is going to die in the next episode. Probably by doing something stupid like opening fire on TNF or something.
Sorry, but shooting a shotgun in a tunnel full of walkers is losing his mind to me. 4 years into the apocalypse and he does shit like that? And I don't believe for a second he gives a crap about Kate when he is willing to put Javi's nephew at gunpoint to make him agree to his plan. What he wants is probably revenge for Francine's death. The fact that you seem to be ok with him DEMANDING everyone to agree with his plan, otherwise he starts killing people, is just slightly disturbing. Personally, I don't want someone like that around my family.
Doesn't change the fact that she is a kid and that he knows the kind of people TNF are (the kind that has no problems in killing kids). Eli's death was an accident. She never meant for that to happen. She was reckless by pointing the gun at him not knowing 100% if the bullets would work or not, but she never meant to "kill him in cold blood".
Well the options were, shoot Conrad or accept his plan, sooo. I'm only saying that Javier had a clear shot of him, so there was a low chance he would miss and shoot Gabe instead.
She only lied saying she was their prisoner. And depending on what dialogue you choose she can say "after what happened to your family, I didn't know how to tell you". So can you blame her for making a mistake of not revealing the truth straight away? It seems you just have a grudge against Clementine to be honest. Because you are willing to excuse a grown ass man threatening a kid (while wanting to send another kid to a group of monsters), in order to force you to agree to his plan. But you aren't willing to forgive a young girl's mistake she clearly regrets. Besides, Clementine's lies never put Javier and his family in danger, Conrad on the other hand is intentionally doing it.
They make a perfect couple :')
Good points, to me as im playing i think to myself
"Okay, Conrad has Gabe hostage, that's a bad thing to do, But i also think that shooting Conrad doesn't sit well with me because i feel it's to far too shoot someone and let Clementine who lied to Javier free" Now, if Clementine hadn't lied and she was honest straight up and Conrad had been a dick the whole time, i would've shot him but he saved Javier, and Clementine lied about the new frontier, so to me it makes sense to agree with his plans. Im also looking out for the others like the girls, and how Tripp feels because if you kill Conrad, it effects Tripp as well.
Well we see Duck not get bitten, the walker is on top of him, and when Carely shoots him, you clearly see Duck is not bitten, so weather we trust Kenny or Not, we know for a fact Duck wasn't bitten, so if he wasn't bitten and someone accuses him off been, we say the truth. It's a bit different to the Conrad thiing.
No i meant Gabe, not Conrad. You made a comment about Conrad shooting Gabe and Javier if you don't choose a decision, but it was a canon death, like if you don't say anything to Kenny in the train, he kicks you out and you return and the group is all dead and Duck has turned into a walker and kills Lee, then it respawns back to the Kenny scene.
He panicked, they entered a tunnel and it was pitch dark and they didn't realise how many walkers were in there, it was a moment of desperation. He says that by giving Clementine to the new frontier it can help the girls, if he doesn't care about anyone, why did he help Javier get up the roof? Too be honest, im more disturbed at why so many people sided with Clementine considering she lied to us. It's saying that liars can get away with it as long as they re cute or a favourite character.
"You ain't a boy or girl, you're a living thing" - Chuck . You can't use the kid card excuse. As far as im concerned, i couldn't care if Clementine was killed, she lied to us, and they have hostages who are far more important then Clementine at the moment. She pointed the gun at him and pulled the trigger, weather or not she knew it was loaded or not, she still didn't care if there was bullets. She could've pointed it at the ground, and don't forget, he pleaded with her to have batteries and she totattly wasn't interested.
And im saying that regardlass of the target, he didn't need to, shooting someone and letting a liar go is wrong .
Prisoner? She was ONE of them. If you choose not to go with the girl in the flashback, Clementine can say she wasn't interested but that they're persuasive. She had intentions to join their group. When she described them to Javier, that's when she should['ve told him, straight away his niece was shot.
Like i have said on here, it's the fans that make me not want to get on board with her, because they're too biased. Clementine lied, and Conrad is more suitable to me then she is, she is hiding something that's why she is so on edge about going to the camp. If she didn't lie, Conrad, would never of done what he did, he did it because of Clementine, he grabbed Gabe because he tried to bait Javier to reason with him, if you let him talk, you can see he is being sincere and when youre look at it, besides him grabbing Gabe, clementine is being a dick, insulting Conrad then turning on Javier if you say the plan could work. She's clearly all about herself, as soon as you say something against her, she abuses you, Conrad at least tries to reason with you.
"Actually, she doesn't want to at first..." Ok, I'm not entirely sure which part of my post you are addressing here but I think it's the part about her risking her butt to help you, so that's what I'm gonna assume until you say otherwise. Like I said, she's flaky as fuck and if I had the option to try to escape at that point I would have done it. But this is normal behavior in The Walking Dead Universe when having a run in with a stranger, so I don't really hold it against her. Really, most people would have just shot you instead.
"Not betraying, because you can go the whole season not trusting Clementine, so you're only talking for a gamer who sides with Clementine." Actually, I'm talking as a gamer who has done both on multiple playthroughs; but that's irreverent. It's not about you not trusting her, it's about her trusting you enough to tell you about her past and as soon as she does you use it against her, that's what makes it a betrayal.
"Lol nice excuse for Clementines personality. Just need to make an excuse for her current personality didn't you." Again, not sure which part of my post you're talking about, but come to think of it, I don't really care either. Her personality's fine, it doesn't need me to make an excuse. If you don't like it, well no one cares because it's all subjective.
"When someone lies, you can't trust them again, Clementine lied..." That's a bit dogmatic; Lee lied about being a murderer for months, what should the group have done with him? Her lie was so inconsequential that I honestly can't understand why people get as worked up about it as they do. First off, she wasn't obligated to tell you anything her past at all and she only really lies if you stay to help her fight in the junk yard. After you bury Mari when she says she was with them but "Not by choice," this was the only part that was a lie and if you don't fight with her it doesn't come up anyway, she just tells you that they're called TNF the next time she see's you. Can you tell me what exactly the consequence of omitting the fact that she used to be with them willingly, was? What do you think it would have changed? The only thing that I can think of is if she told you right off the bat, you could have used her as a bargaining chip sooner, which I'm sure crossed her mind also. Considering that Badger wasn't too keen on keeping his end of a bargain, that probably wouldn't have ended to well for anyone anyway.
"...while Conrad held Gabe hostage, his looking out for the group..." I don't know how you can say he's looking out for the group when he used his gun to threaten 50% of the group in the span of five seconds. And don't tell me he's thinking about Kate; I don't think he's said a single word to her the entire game and he's threatening to take the lives of the only family she has left (that she knows of). The only people he might care about is Tripp and Eleanor and that hardly constitutes the whole group.
"...and to him Clementine can't be trusted and i agree with him ,it doesn't make you wrong, it means you're not trusting someone who lied to you. What's wrong with that?" Nothing's wrong with that. But we're not talking about trusting Clementine, are we? We're talking about trussing her up and hanging her out to dry.
They knew the tunnel was crawling with walkers before he started shooting. You're full of double standards. It's ok for Conrad to threaten people to make them agree with his plan, but it's not ok for Clem to lie once? Clem also helps Javier and saves his life countless of times. At the junkyard, if you don't kill certain walkers she kills them for you and saves you in some occasions. She stays behind and covers you and/or your family. I'm not saying Conrad is a monster, I'm just saying Francine's death made him unstable and he is a danger to the group at that point. I wouldn't choose to shoot him if I had a third option, like retrain him or something, but there was no way I was agreeing with his plan and let him go back to the group with a gun in his hand.
Yeah, it's pretty obvious from your comments that your problem is not that she "lied to us" is that she's Clementine and you seem to hate that some people love her and will protect her no matter what.
She was pointing at him because he tricked her, gave her bad bullets that could cost her life and she thought all the bullets didn't work. She was trying to intimidate him. And let's not pretend he is some innocent little lamb here, he fucking pulled out a knife and tried to kill her, or are you forgetting that?
And I'm saying pulling a gun and point it at your nephew's head (when Conrad knows you just lost your niece) to make you go along with his plan of sentencing a girl who has been helping you to death, torture, slavery, etc. in the hopes that TNF will even listen and agree to help you, while letting that person go and rejoin the group like nothing happened and risk something like that again, is wrong.
You're right, WAS one of them. She clearly isn't anymore, since she's with you, killing members of TNF and clearly wants to avoid them. Being persuasive can mean a lot of things. It can mean they took AJ (since Ava knew about him) and made Clem join them. You don't know, so stop judging her before you get the whole story.
Yeah, and you're too biased against her. That's not any better you know? From your comments, it's clear you are willing to give other characters that did shitty things the benefit of the doubt but since it's Clementine, she can go to hell. So I don't even know why I'm discussing this with you and wasting my time since you proved you are not willing to properly discuss her reasons for doing things because you hate her.
Considering Javier was bounded, he was no threat to her, she had a gun on him, and i get the fact we dont have a decision for Clementine to walk away and leave, but we play as the game tells the story, and the story is that she didn't want to at first, but then decided to but blackmailed Javier that she'll take his car which you have the option to say that they need the car for survival. She's really doing none of them a favour, she takes him back to his family, but her plan is to leave them stranded a lone with no food or water or car. Not really caring considering she wants people caring for her i.e lie about Eli and shoot Conrad.
Well actually, she tells you after Javiers niece gets shot, and it's her choice to tell you, so it's her own doing and i chose to go with the family and had no scene of her telling me yet the game still played as if she did. Too her you're betraying her because she will always think that if you choose against her, but for me as Javier, im not because i haven't played through where me picking Conrad is betraying her. It's her own fault if she thinks that with the way i treated her. But it's the games way of trying to make us feel like we have to choose her over Conrad, making Conrad grab Gabe is begging us to kill him. That his a maniac asshole who needs to be killed and it makes people forget that Clementine lied and is trying so hard to avoid the interaction with the new frontier.
Obviously you cared to make a comment about it. And just a fyi, the comment was because you said she was "flaky as fuck", but said that it's better then Conrad because his was direct and hers was predictable. You said she was flaky but made an excuse for it to try and say well shes not bad like Conrad is.
Lee never mentioned the killing to anyone of the group. He gets confronted about it by Carley because she's a reporter, then when Clementine asks him he tells her the truth (but because shes only 8 he sugarcoats it) He tells Carley on the way to the dairy because she asks him and then when she says to him its best to tell people, he does depending on who the player chooses to pick, he never says to the group "there was a incident where my wife cheated on me with the senator" and then later says "by the way, i killed the guy". He does say he was on his way to prison but that was to Hershel and Hershel asks him who he was with, nothing to do with why.
Clementine on the other hand talks about the frontier about how they are and what they do, then says "hey, i was one of them" it's 2 different things.
Okay first off, not by choice means forced to be with them, she wasn't forced, she went on her own free will so that's a big lie of the bat and 2nd, Had she been straight up from the start, i highly doubt Javier would be as mad as when she told him later on, also, this was before the girls went to Richmond by themselves, so how do you know Conrad would use her ? The deal is to give them Clementine for the girls, if the girls aren't going to Richmond without knowing who's there, what else could they do? Shoot Clementine? Wouldn't be so bad.
Eleanor and Kate at the time have went to Richmond, we don't know what's happened to them, he says if we use Clementine, we can make a deal with them pretty much, he cares more for them then Clementine does, If you side with Conrad, he comes with us to try and make a deal, Clementine? She leaves us, she showed no care for the 2 women, only herself, how you can she cares when she does that is beyond me.
Hey, remember, she lied to us, and because the episodes arne't out yet, we don't know what her connection was with them, she said she was made by her not having a choice when she did it for herself, she can reject the girls offer but then said they were very persuasive, so how do we know there isn't more to this story then we already know?
Did you not see how many were there when he started shooting? No, i never said him grabbing Gabe was good, but it all revolved around her, and the fact she lied. She shouldve been straight from the start. Thats what a group does, they help each other, what about Javier when she had fake bullets? Or lying for her when she shot Eli? Seeing how if you shoot him she takes off and leaves you, that's enough evdience to prove that she's in for herself.
My comment meant if she was killed, i wouldn't care and bitch like all the clementine fans would and say " we riot if she dies". Big deal, we have other characters, it's not all about her.
Again, listen to what i say he pleaded with her to the trade, she had already scared him, he was pleading, she didn't have to pull the trigger, and if she did, she shouldve done it on the ground, how can you say that pulling the trigger and shoving a gun in someones face is right? Biased much?
See, you go on about how it's bad for Conrad to hold up Gabe (which i agree) but then you end it with that clementine will ge tortured. If she lies, that's her fault, not ours. if she did something to that group she should have to pay for what she did.
And you don't know either, so stop making accusations that you don't know. Until we find out what happened we both don't have a leg to stand on, i could say to you "how do we know there isn't more to the story" im speculation just as much as you are, so lets wait and see what happens.
Not true, and maybe you shouldn't jump the gun without knowing your facts, i've stood up for Clementine in the past 2 seasons, but this season, she's deserved no sympathy. She tried to blackmail us in taking our car, lied to us about her involvement with the new frontier, shot a man unarmed in cold blood then begged us to lie for her, wanted us to stay and fight instead of worrying about our family, runs off if you kill Conrad and shows no respect for the Eleanor and Kate. Tell me again why i should like her in this season?
Preach it sis
Exactly, there were many. Someone even says "they are everywhere!". The fact that you can see dozens of them with just a few flashlights, is not a good sign. So shooting a shotgun is the most stupid and irresponsible thing you could ever do in that situation. You are going to kill what? One or two? But then the whole herd is going after you.
What you're saying doesn't even make any sense. You are saying a person lying about something is worse than a person threatening to kill a member of your family, of the group. I don't even know what you mean with "what about Javier when she had fake bullets". Javier's life was also at risk because he was with her when the bullets didn't work. And she can even say "it could've gotten both of us killed". The reason why my Javier covered for Clem was because it was an accident, she didn't do it on purpose and she was the one taking Javier back to the junkyard. Besides, I didn't see a reason to defend a dead asshole that just tried to kill both Javi and Clem.
"Thats what a group does" oh and threatening to kill one of the members of said group while taking another as hostage is what a group does?
When she tells you the truth she says she can't let TNF see her and that she's leaving either way. Like I said, we don't know what happened between her and them so you can't really judge right now.
Okay.... And? That's your opinion. If other people would get mad, it's their opinion. What's your point? You still obviously hate Clem, so my point stands.
Again, listen to what I said. She didn't know some of the bullets would work. Which is why she was pointing the gun at him and pulling the trigger. She wanted bullets that would work, she didn't want the batteries back. Again, it was an accident, she didn't want to kill him. I'm not saying what she did was right, pointing a gun at someone, even when a gun is not loaded is dangerous. But you're acting like she had all the intentions in the world in killing him.
I said it was mistake from her part to lie, obviously, but I can understand why she did. And she then fixed it by telling the truth a few hours later. She didn't put anyone in danger. Yes, she can be tortured because TNF has proved they have no problems in killing kids. It's not her fault that a crazy asshole pulls a gun on her and makes Javier accept a plan that takes her right into the middle of the people she's trying to avoid.
Lol are you serious right now? Read your own comments and take your own advice. I'm not accusing anyone, you are! You are the one accusing Clem that she lied and deserves all the bad things coming her way for lying once. And you're assuming the worst because she joined TNF. I'm only giving her the benefit of the doubt, which you are not willing to do because you hate her or hate her fans, or whatever your reason is. I am accusing Conrad for what he did and I have every right to because, good intentions or not, he put Javier's family in danger and threatened to kill his nephew. That's not how shit works. You don't make people agree to your plans. That's not how groups work and if you can't understand that then GTFO. That's how I see it.
No one is talking about past season though. I already gave my reasons in the link on my first post (I doubt you read the whole thing but if you want to know my opinion go read it because I'm not going to repeat myself). If you don't agree with it, fine, it's your opinion. It's not a matter of liking her or not, it's a matter of understanding her reasons, even if you don't agree with it, but it seems you have no intentions to do.
I agreed with Conrad because I didn't want any bloodshed. I was hoping we could lie to him to let him cool down but when Javier actually gave Clemntine to the New Frontier, I was like "well, shit". It had taught me to take responsibility for my words.
I still don't know whether I should redo this choice or not. I do regret it, but changing my playthrough seems like cheating.
Yes, i can understand your way of thinking. Personally, I choose to shoot him because for me, after the death of his niece and Kate's injury, Javier could not just let go of what Conrad did. And he couldn't send a child to death. It's true that Clementine lied to us, but finally she told us the truth, and she didn't have to. If she wanted, she could have just left us before we get to Richmond, without any explanation. But she chose to be honest with us.
I find it ironic that many people are angry with her because of her lie, when in reality it's because of her honesty that all this mess with Conrad starts.
But yeah, I understand the reasons why some people choose to betray her. My comment was mostly for those who think that shoot Conrad is just fanboyism with Clem.
For Duck, I didn't remember that it was so obvious that he wasn't bitten, but I believe you.
I meant as in because there was so many, he panicked, he had a gun, there were heaps of them so he shot a few, when you panic, you don't think properly. You just can't seem to let this guy catch a break, everything he does seems to be negative. I suppose him pulling Javier up was bad to right.
I said him holding Gabe was bad and does he shoot Gabe? Take the canon death out, does he? Yes or no? You were going on about how she saved Javier multiple times , the fake bullets thing was who saved her when they didnt work? Javier, my point is that people have saved Clementine as well. Eli may have been an asshole, but he didnt deserve to be shot. He pulled a knife out, got restrained, was unarmed and she pointed the gun in his face and pulled the trigger, she doesn't deserve someones lies to cover up for her, she needs to be made accountable for what she has done.
When that group member lies about her background story, yes it does. She runs off if you kill Conrad, what does that say about her character.
Exactly, we have to wait but the fact that she doesnt want them to see proves she doesnt want something to come out. Not shifty at all.
And thats YOUR opinion on who i hate and who i don't. Like i said, it's the fans that ruin it.
That's why you point the gun at the ground, Remember what Lee said about how you only aim the gun at someone when you want to hurt them. She couldve shot the gun at the ground and go "see, they don't work" Yes, she wanted bullets, not batteries but he was willing a trade back regardless, she didn't want to hear it and she was reckless.
If she didn;t lie, Conrad wouldn't of done what he did. His motive was because Clementine lied, she put them all in danger, you can say "Conrad did it by grabbing Gabe" But would he have done it if she didn't say that? If she said it at the start like she should've, the whole of prescott would've decided what to do and don't forget, Conrad's girlfriend was still alive, so he wouldn't of flipped out that bad.
What nerve did i hit there? You got pretty fired up. And guess what? You don't lie, and have people give you the benefit of the doubt because they're biased towards you, that's not how the world works. I think you should read your own comments, that was because you told me i don't know and i replied with neither do you, truth, no? My complaint is because she lied, i don't know what happened, i have said that it MUST be bad if she's avoiding it, why else would she want to?
No it does matter, you're claiming that i hate her and all this stuff, yet im clearly telling you that i liked Clementine in earlier seasons, you just expected me to not say i liked her, so you're trying to discard it because it makes you look bad, nice try. Why would i want to read the whole thing,? I read your motive on Conrad, and that's all i wanted to read, cheers.
I tied him up, whatever.
You know, the same thing can be said about you. You just can't seem to let this girl catch a break, everything she does seems to be negative. I suppose she staying behind to cover for you and your family was bad too, right.
It's not about if he shot Gabe or not. It's about him pointing a gun at his head, threatening his life, to make Javier agree with his plan. I didn't say Eli deserved to get shot. I didn't say what Clementine did was right. I simply said she didn't mean to do it, it was an accident. My Javier didn't see a reason to be a self-righteous asshole and throw her under the bus when she was the one who was going to take him back to his family. That's my opinion. Do with it as you please.
She doesn't run off because you killed Conrad. Are you even reading what I'm writing? And have you actually listened to what she said when she told the truth? She said she was going to leave even before Conrad pointed a gun at her. She said she couldn't let TNF see her. Again, we don't know why. We don't know what happened so you're letting your hatred for her get the better of you and you're jumping to conclusions.
It doesn't prove anything. You're just speculating.
Sorry but that's a bit childish, hating a character just because others love her unconditionally. Can you not think for yourself and not let others influence your opinion on things? What does it matter if people play their games thinking of Clem's safety? Just play your game, be an asshole to Clem, who cares? Just stop complaining about how others play theirs.
Doesn't change the fact that it was an accident and that she didn't mean to kill him.
Lmao how the heck did she put them in danger by lying she was ONCE part of TNF? You're just grasping at straws now. TNF went to Prescott because Javier stole and killed some of their guys, this has literally nothing to do with Clem. Conrad's girlfriend is dead and Prescott fell because of Badger. You seem to believe Conrad gives a shit about Javi or his family. Well, he proved he doesn't care about Gabe, otherwise he wouldn't threatened to kill him. And he obviously doesn't care about Javi, otherwise he wouldn't threaten his nephew either. So why would he care about Kate when he didn't even speak to her at all? And what he says during that whole confrontation is: "We bring her to Richmond, they give us whatever we want. Medical help for Kate." and then later on he says "This helps both of us." So it's clear his reasons aren't the same. He's just trying to make Javier agree to his plan by bringing up Kate, but he doesn't give a shit about her and that's not why he wants to bring Clem to them. I'll gladly eat my words if this turns out to be wrong, but I highly doubt it. Just watch, he will do something stupid next episode, like open fire inside TNF or something and it will get him killed.
Sorry, you already proved you hate Clem in season 3 and that you will always side against her because "the fans ruined her for you". It's pretty obvious reading your comments too. I give you solid arguments to Clem's reasons and you just ignore it and say "but but- she lied!!1!!" so yeah, not very convincing.
I can definitively say the saying the truth got her in trouble, that's why Conrad completely lost it. Actually he started to lost it a little earlier when he fired a goddamn shotgun in a tunnel full of walkers. That, to me is much more dangerous to the group than Clementine not saying the whole truth. Actually I can accept lies if telling the truth that could endanger the safety of loved ones, and clearly Clem is hiding AJ's existence to the group and for good reason. I clearly don't share your view that lying is a criminal offense but to each his own, I guess.
I hope telltale is going to show me something that makes me believe that this is the character I shaped in 2 seasons. Why and how did she change so much that she acts more like Jane when that's not how I played her at all.
Again if people choose to act because they act Clementine, that's their reason. Where's the harm in that? In season 1 we acted as a father figure to her, then in season 2 we directly controlled her, so maybe people thinks she's not that bad and can be trustworthy because they know her. Maybe Javier wouldn't but again so all character who think he's their buddies and their leader. Tripp has more experience with Prescott but he says "you're the boss". That just doesn't make any sense.
Conrad to me is mostly looking for revenge and since he's determinant, either he will had some lines before his death or he will provoke people someone like Badger and end up the same way as Mari.
With the difference being we weren't able to act in the instance they grabbed Clementine by the hair. If we had a gun in the dining room I bet my ass people would've shot Andy and Danny because it was an immediate threat.
You might not see a difference there, I do. I differentiate between immediate threat, and past threats.
As in Conrad is an immediate threat, whether or not you agree with the plan objectively, and Andy/Danny were a past threat. Killing them then, while being incapacitated, would be vengeance.
There is one point though. When she got a car, and brought Javier back to Prescott, she could've just left if she didn't give a shit. But what did she do? She waited at the car, probably for Javier giving the OK. She could've left then and avoided The New Frontier, which would've resulted in Javier's death, because Clementine was the one who took the shot on the woman that held a gun to Javi's head.
Because later on you could possibly use him? Shooting Conrad there IMO was the most weakest option. But many players are generally too narrow minded and don't think outside of the box and pick the easiest ever choices to appeal to Clem. Because Clem you know.
How am I doing that, exactly? Because I said that "You don't know why people do what they do, you can only know what they told you"? This is not "pretending to know what goes in people's heads", this is a fact, unless you are a mind reader and actually do know what goes in other people's heads.
I am going exactly by what people are saying their motives are, while telling you my own, while you are accusing people of lying about their motives. When someone says their reasons to do something are X, and you say "no, your actual reasons are Y", you ARE pretending you know what goes in their heads, while you do not. I did not at any point say the motives of anyone were different from what they said they were. You are not only doing that, you are actually being extremely rude and offensive while doing that.
That's exactly what I'm saying. You made up a justification for what they did as to try to align two completely different situations and claimed that to be the truth for everybody. This is simply false. You are saying people are lying about their reasons. How can you possibly know?
You are pretending the situation is about "this character did X", while the situation is actually "this character was doing X at the time we were given the choice to kill them" as to justify the way you tried to make the situations equal, while they are not.
I said MY upvoted posts (the ones I posted, the ones posted by ME and upvoted by other people) were all pro-Gabe. This is the truth, and you can quote my posts that were pro-Clementine if you wish. You will find none because I posted none, because as I said before I don't care about Clem, but go ahead and do it. Find one single post I posted that is pro-Clem.
"Boasting"? Where did you even get that from? No, I am explaining my choices. And my opinion on the game is regarding MY actions and MY reasons. That's the difference. Your opinion is that "everybody is lying about their motives and they are hypocrites if they killed this character but not the other", they are regarding other people's actions and their reasons to do so. I did not at any point "tried to lecture you" about your opinion on the game, at all times I only pointed out how your opinion on other people's actions was biased.
And I don't know if I posted this on this thread already, but I surely did post on other threads, but I am of the opinion that all of the major decisions on episode 1 and 2 make sense one way or the other, so I find nothing wrong with your decision to keep Conrad alive, if that's what you are saying I "tried to lecture you" on. I do have an issue with you saying that your decision is the only good one and saying everybody else is wrong and are hypocrites for making the other decision, because they "must be lying about their motives". And that's the big difference. Also, you are STILL calling me names and being overall aggravating for no reason.
I'm with you on this, as I tried to explain my view on shooting Conrad and also on the comparison with St. Johns and Conrad.
But, c'mon man, how can you not care about our Clementine!?
I'm sorry, I know people care for her a lot, but there are some characters that I just can't get invested on
I don't dislike her, and I don't think that she is a bad character by any means. I think she is well-written, I think her voice acting is great, but I just don't care for her any more than I would care for any other character.
I think it is mostly because I didn't "do the waiting" on the first two seasons. I bought the whole seasons when everything was out, and I think that greatly diminished my enjoyment of both of the seasons and also my attachment to the characters. The only character I really, really cared for was Luke. Maybe Lee. Today, I consider the waiting between episodes and discussing them in the forums absolutely essential to the "TellTale experience".
Sheesh, does EVERY player have this mindset about characters? If so, there is no hope for humanity =_=
Mourning and holding grudges is NOT whining. They are holding grudges and mourning with good reason; so many people have lost the ones they care about and love, and if it were you in their shoes (not running away in them, mind you) you would react the same way. You ALWAYS need someone to blame but yourself, someone to take the anger out on. That's not whining.
By definition, actually, whining is either a loud and high pitched sound or a feeble complaint. I hardly call mourning a complaint.