Side with Clementine or not (Biased or Moral)
Why do people keep saying that people who agree with Clementine are just biased?
I love Clementine, I loved Lee, I loved Kenny.
I didn't always agree with Kenny, and in fact he didn't help Lee when he had to find Clementine. I killed Kenny my first playthrough despite the fact I loved him more than any character. (However that changed when Jane lied)
Now all of a sudden it's wrong for us to stick up for Clementine? It's sort of weird that we are biased. We have no reason to even turn against her. Because she acts mean? She has saved us, helped us, trusts us.
She killed Eli, accidental for sure, but why would we not cover for her, she was helping us and we were even attacked by Eli, giving us every reason to kill him. Also, why would we just throw her under the bus? Eli's death was highly justified!
Now on to leaving your family or staying with Clem. This is a hit or miss. In a way, both need us. Our family was hurt and killed, so we should go back with them, however, TNF are shooting at us, and will come after us, so it makes since to stay and fight the threat. Covering your family is just as important as leaving with them, but you're also leaving a little girl alone to deal with a bunch of enemies. Both ways are justified in their own way.
Lastly, I don't see why it's wrong to shoot Conrad. He's unstable, of course that's no reason to kill him as Kenny was very unstable as well. But, just like Kenny, he threatens another human and it's not an empty threat hence why he will shoot both you and Gabe and take Clementine. He threatened your nephew, so he deserved to die already. Lastly, look at it at a moral stand point. Who has helped you most, Clem or Conrad? Clementine has given up a lot to help you guys (Despite her wanting to get a car and leave). She also trust you a lot and proves to be one of the main member he can trust as well. Conrad knows she is not TNF anymore, but he still wants to use her for a group SHE is scared of so he could get inside. He had good intention for the group, but planned to use a little girl for that plan, which could of led to something awful for Clem, maybe even death.
The choice then becomes, Shoot Conrad because he's unstable and threatened your nephew and also plans to use a little girl despite the consequences and torture she will receive just to get inside; OR you could accept the plan for a sure fire way of getting into the TNF's gate and keep everyone alive, because life matters.
Either way, it's your opinion whether or not you side with Clementine based off of biased opinion or on a more moral stance.
I love Clementine, but I will not agree with her 100% of the time because she's my favorite, I just look at the bigger picture before making bigger decisions.
Comments
Bump, I look like a dick for this, but I want to start a discussion.
With Kenny, you have to side with him on everything pretty much, or say Clementine is my family to him. His all about loyalty that man.
I think the percentage is about 90% siding with her? So, it's only a small piece of the people who play the game who "betrayed" her.
I guess because people thought what she did was reckless and there are some people that don't want to lie and would prefer to tell the truth, it's not really throwing her under the bus if you don't try to get a long with her. There are some people who don't play the games to be a friend of Clementine. I'd say Eli's death is how the person feels towards it, the majority would say it's justified, a small percent will say it was cold blood or reckless by her, it's up to us to decide.
You answered your own question regarding the stay or leave point. You pick, do you stay with Clementine and try to kill them or do you go and help your family. I think Clementine says she'll be alright or she encourages you to go with your family if you choose to go with your family. Correct me if im wrong.
Conrad decision is again up to the player. Depending how you played, there are factors regarding it. 1: He held Gabe at hostage to convince Javier to agree to his place which is bad. 2: He wants to take her as a hostage because she lied about her involvement with TNF saying she was forced to be with them but later said she joined them on her own will, and that giving her to them as part of a trade would help Eleanor and Kate, so his intention is to help the girls. The canon death of Javier and Gabe is a game over death that is a way of saying "You didn't make a choice, so we have to put a game over death scene in" and given there was no other way Javier could die in that situation, they did that. And Conrad does help when the walkers are about to get Javier by extending his hand to pull him up.
That's a fair point about wanting to protect Gabe and Clementine, which is the opposite of why i chose to agree to his plan. I was looking out for Eleanor and Kate and we needed a a chance to save them and ill get backlash for this as i did in the past, but Clementine lied to me, so at the moment, i can't trust what she says about TNF, we don't know the circumstances about AJ either, and if you do shoot Conrad, she runs away and leaves the group to deal with it. Now, i could be wrong and she isn't bad and ill gladly eat my hat, but she's been shady this entire season and i can't trust her at the moment.
But like i've said, there is no wrong answer, because we ourselves choose how we want to play the game, the choices are there so it's use who chooses it, weather we lie for her, don't, kill Conrad or don't, none of the choices are wrong just because say 90% choose one option, doesn't mean the 10% are wrong, it's how we view it and make the choice.
Here's the thing for me at least. You can side with clementine without bias if your siding based on the situation and circumstance vs just blindly siding with clementine. So for me I don't think just siding with clementine in itself is bias but the reasons of why you sided with her more so. I know people can play however they want which is fine but I think it's ridiculous when people solely and blindly play the game to appease and support clementine. I get she's a lovable char and all but revolving your entire gameplay around her I feel greatly takes from the gaming experience.
This is exactly why, if Telltale wanted to exercise their Artistic Integrity and have a game about pet project Javier, it should have been a spin off while Season 3 focused on Clementine.
As it is right now, the Javier fans are unhappy about being friendly to a hostile Clem
The pro-kind Clem fans are unhappy about her stealing/swearing/killing and want to play as her to change it
The pro-scumbag Clem fans are unhappy about being forced to be friends with "Javi" and would rather shoot him (with bonus smoker/drinker Clem/Kate relationship)
I'm not going to lie and say that while I did try and look at each decision logically in the time that was given, I undoubtedly had factored in some form of a bias to Clementine and gaining her favour which may have changed the decisions I made. However, even if Clementine were swapped in these situations with different characters, I still like to think that I would have taken the same decisions regardless. Like with the first decision especially - I saw it explicitly as a 'gain favour with Clementine' or 'tell the truth for morality's sake' sort of decision, and of course I sided with Clementine because I would rather build a friendship with a character, especially the one character who we actually know previously, and saw it as more useful than standing up for the truth.
Is this the wrong attitude to take? You are effectively using meta knowledge, your views from previous seasons, to influence your decisions. If some people want to try and play the game and the story to "role-play" fully from Javier's perspective, then fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with viewing what Clementine has done so far with a level of suspicion. I've chosen every decision in favour of Clementine (not because of her past seasons but because it made sense to me in those decisions) and even I'm convinced she can't entirely be trusted on some things because of her potential story with The New Frontier and AJ.
But if a game requires you as a player to subvert your natural instincts because it "wouldn't make sense from Javi's perspective" or whatever as a way to how the game should be played 'correctly', then that's a problem with the game, not the players. You can't expect, when making these decisions, for every player to automatically disregard their past experiences with Clementine especially since she effectively is the central piece to the plots of the prior two games, and expect them to go against Clementine's actions "just because."
I really hope TellTale factored this in when making these decisions and I have to say, I have a slight feeling they underestimated how much the fanbase would support Clementine. I remember before the game was released, Job J Stauffer (or someone in TellTale) made a tweet saying something along the lines of "It's interesting seeing how different newcomers to ANF react to Clementine as opposed to older players." There's a part of me that says that people in TellTale may have acknowledged themselves a Clementine bias in the community, but expected the 'tough' decisions the player gets put through and the expectation that players would modify their view on Clementine to fit Javi's role as the protagonist to balance out the decisions, plus the inclusion of a new fanbase that would see Clementine in a different light would also fix the stats in a more 'truthful' way.
Obviously, the stats backfired and most people picked Clementine, as should have honestly been expected.
"These hard hitting decisions in the moment will clearly give a balanced, fair reaction from the community!"
"Wh-Why are 9/10 people picking one character from two games over a cast they've known for less than two hours!?"
Clementine = Shepard
Javier = Catalyst
Telltale = Bioware
I actually agree with most because overall it's your own story, I however don't agree with people calling all who sided with Clem being biased.
Also, the part about leaving with the family or not, Clementine says it both ways.
"I think you saved my life" if you stay.
"I'll keep fire, go and don't stop" (Not exact) if you leave.
Either way, that choice comes to waht you believe. I looked at it as, leave a child behind or go with your family, however I believed both ways would have protected the family fine, you provide cover one way, and the other way, you physically leave and protect them.
All in all, I prefer the much more heartwarming burial scene over the disgusting surgery scene haha.
I actually don't disagree with Betraying Clementine. In fact I have another play through going with that choice. She did lie, but I still don't believe we should allow a 13 year old girl to be hurt or even killed for our own gain. She lied, it is true, but in a way she gained my trust when she actually told me the truth. As far as afterwards I don't agree with Conrad at all, I say he is overreacting (which he is) and I call Clementine a friend (which she is).
Well I don't find her killing Eli justified at all. I only sided with her because I wanted to play as her character so the least I could do was keep her relative to the story without being separated from Javier.
As for Kenny he helped me find Clementine, you had to choose the "show them the bite" option for him to go help look for Clementine. I suppose when the stakes are high Kenny comes to the rescue but when he doesn't know you're bit he was going to just hang back.
People that don't like Clementine or they refused to side with her due to her actions I have nothing against, that's their play style I suppose.
Which is something I avoid, I didn't agree on everything Kenny did and even killed him in my initial playthrough.
Clementine is the same way, I choose based on the whole picture which frankly many see differently. I saw the plan Conrad proposed to be wrong because he is offering to use a 13 year old girl to bargain with when she could be put to death or tortured. However, I and many others don't want to just kill Conrad because of a disagreement.
Overall, I believe every choice can be justified in the game for one side or the other. I personally hate Jane and all she did, and how she hung herself (coward), but my friend adores her.
Regardless, if the people want to choose everything based off of Clementine, might as well let them, if she does something incredibly stupid, then I guess people will have to live with her dumb decision. I hope more people will look at the bigger picture when they choose though.
I loved Season 2 Clementine, but why are people mad? She is, in a way, both qualities. Caring, but cold.
She has a heart, but sometimes she acts heartless.
Hopefully people can get over Clementine not being playable, she's my favorite character, but I heavily enjoy playing as Javier and fleshing him out.
Also I can't get over his great voice acting. Lee was a great character, but sometimes his acting wasn't the best haha.
For sure. Choose how you want to choose. People keep seeing it as a problem that people are both biased towards Clementine and people want to role-play Javier.
Who knows, maybe the last choice may be between Gabe and Clementine. (Which would suck, because that means they both would die in the beginning of Season 4).
Well that's good.
It's the beauty of these games really, I personally feel like Eli's death (bullet trader) was highly justified, while you don't.
I love that this game gives you the option to choose how you feel, and although not a major change, it shows your impact on the decision and allows you to create your own story.
Some are certainly biased but others think it was simply the right thing to do. I love Clementine but there's been moments where I've sided against her.
I actually haven't sided against her much as of yet. I did question my choice for betraying quite a lot, but I did end up believe I chose the right decision of shooting Conrad.
What was your toughest decision so far?
Hmm I suppose you found it justified because he pulled a knife on you but the way he did it to me was he deliberately did it slowly as a gesture to threaten he even said "oh brother in a sarcastic tone and not in a I'm going to kill you! way but not really do anything serious. Plus Clem was firing her gun at him first regardless of them being defective or not besides she was actually wrong some of those bullets did fire and that was the one she killed him with.
Yeah, according to the different view points it's not justified.
But I saw and still see him pulling out the knife to kill Clementine.
So, I believed that it was truly justified despite it being an accident. Otherwise, I also wouldn't betray the only one I really trust at the moment in that place.
Overall, I do love how differently we can mold choices and make our own decisions.
The toughest decision has to be what happened with Conrad. I am so against killing in this game but I actually considered shooting Conrad. In the end I did not shoot Conrad and I felt like a scumbag afterwards.
Well everyone has their opinion on others, thatt's just what people do. As long as you know the choices you make are the best ones, that's all that matters. I did a post about how everyone who sided with Clementine was biased, but looking back on it, i went over the top and shouldn't of said everyone. I still stand by my argument that a lot of people did it because they showed a bit of biased opinion towards her, but a lot more did it out of moral reasons and for Gabe and that they felt Conrad was a danger to the group so i admit i went too far.
Yeah, i knew she said something like that. I don't think she made a big deal out of it, because i think she understands that you'd have to go with your family if you chose that option.
That's fair enough, i mean you argue to that Like you said, you're returning the fire to help them and also Tripp or Eleanor are there to help Kate ans Gabe, so there's nothing wrong with choosing to stay.
Unless you're into the graphic display telltale showed us with Kate lol.
Yeah we are all different, some of us can forget and forgive, others can't. I can understand people forgiving her, you can say she didn't know how to tell Javier and that she had no idea TNF was at Richmond, im just one of those people who are big on trust, and if someone lies, it's hard for me to trust them again but she may prove me wrong.
Yeah he went over the top when he grabbed Gabe, but i think his intentions are to help the others, he just did a more hostile approach to it and given the fact his trying to give TNF to Clementine and he grabbed a kid as hostage, it doesn't give him much hope that people are gonna side with him. 10% did but it's interesting to know how many actually wanted to side with him or just did because they did a 2nd playthrough to see different choices.
It was the hardest for sure. I hate killing as well, so ultimately I hated it when I chose to shoot him.
I did create an alternate playthrough to see how it will play out, because that decision is such a hard call. Betray or Slay.
Overall, I do think calling Clementine your friend after wards is a really impactful scene that I am glad that they have a good voice actor for Javier.
I agree with everything you said, overall we all got different mindsets haha.
However, I have a huge feeling that the main reason why people shot Conrad was because he grabbed Gabe to be honest. If he didn't do that, it could of upped the percent of people who accepted the plan.
It would of made me think harder, but I still would personally hate using a girl that I (not everyone however) trust for a bargaining chip.
The Walking Dead: Feel bad simulator is how it feels to me sometimes haha.
Haha yeah true, doesn't mean we are wrong, we just view things different, it's all cool though.
That was the main reason a long with Clementine on the thread but thats just a small percentage of people who played, there were the odd "No one fucks with my Clementine" comments but yeah it was mainly because Conrad went a bit loopy and because he grabbed Gabe, oh and also if you don't make a decision he shoots Javier and Gabe so that didn't help his odds haha.
If you think she's saved your life and you trust her yeah, it would be throwing her under the bus.
Lol no one said it would be easy, and there are choices in the games that will make us feel bad regardless of what we choose like having to save someone and let someone else die when you'd love to save both.
Yeah. I hope the final decision of this game will not be between choosing to save Clementine and Gabe.
Gabe will seem the like the reasonable choice now, but I assume that Javier will most likely grow and very close relationship with Clementine because they most likely got rid of Mariana for a reason. If they can fully evolve the relationship between the two, it will make the choice a lot harder.
Technically they both aren't your children, but (if they flesh out their relationship) Javier would see Gabe as his son and see Clementine as his daughter.
Im sure even you choose a Javier who doesn't trust Clementine, he still cares for her more so with what happened to Mariana, but seeing how they killed her off, it wouldn't shock me if they killed Gabe off in a similar way. Telltales not giving anyone an inch even with Conrad and if you don't make a decision in time, you'd think he'd only shoot Javier but he shoots both him and Gabe.
I'd say the only one who is safe besides Javier is Clementine but it wouldn't shock me if they would have an option not to save her.
Imagine that, Save Clementine or Save Gabe for example. That be interesting to see the stats, Pick family or Pick Clementine.
Being totally honest it is biased, but what do people expect clementine was one of the main characters in season 1 and 2. For most people this isnt a role play so they are going to make the choices they want to and therefore help and side with clementine
That'd be a very hard decision for me to make haha.
I think Clem is just hiding away her true personality, my Clem was very survival minded, and didnt always have the positive outlook that Lee did, but she was kind when she could, but sometimes you have to make sacrifices for your own preservation (such as doing my own work at howes instead of helping Sarah, while I was kind to Sarah most of the time, and even tried to save her, she was beyond saving, and me getting beat up over not doing my work at Howes wouldnt help anyone, considering Clem was a big part of the escape plan in Howes)
Clem is, in a way, scared to get to know people again, so she hides away her kind side, and shows her survivor side, also, acting heartless is sometimes necessary in this world, I know its harsh to say, but you cant solve every conflict, you cant help every man. We have already seen glimpses of the heart that Clem has, in the AJ flashbacks, the real Clem shows, the happy, kind hearted Clem, and she has started opening up to Javier and show him her real side as well.
While I dont necessarily agree with the choice to not play Clem, I can get over it, and playing as Javier is kind of interesting, although what they have shown of his family so far, I dont really care for them, only Mariana, and well.... she gone, Kate seems like she kind of cares about being a good person, but at the same time she seems really careless, and I have rejected all romantic advances from her. All I hope for, is that Telltale doesnt just ditch Clem after this season, I still think a game protecting AJ as Clem has huge potential
I like to think that my decisions werent biased either, I supported Clem every time, because I felt like she was in the right, maybe except for the Conrad choice, but Conrad was way out of line, and I am not gonna go and bargain with a fucking 13 yearold, especially not when that 13-yearold kicks everyone else in the groups ass, Clem is way more reliable and trustworthy than any of the other characters so far in my opinion, and thats not bias, thats based on what we have seen in the game so far, she has not given me any reason to doubt, heck, she told the truth about The New Frontier in the end, obviously she didnt trust Javier enough at the junkyard
I would also rather have Clem as an ally, rather than the rest of the group, Clem is reliable, and we have seen how bigger groups always lead to strife, and in turn, the destruction of the group
If Clem start kill people and eat them, i only say:
I dont like killing needlessly either, but I have come to realize, that sometimes its necessary, such as with Rebecca in season 2, you cant always pick the right choice, and keeping Clems allegiance is gonna benefit more than having Conrad around ever will, also, while not a good reason in game, all I really care about is Clem and AJ, so I need Clems help, I am also not gonna bargain with a 13 yearold, considering we dont even know what her relation with the new frontier was, other than she was branded.
Also, Conrad was out of line, he threatened Gabe, and Threatened Clem, and so far, Gabe and Clem have done more, and given me more reason to trust them than Conrad ever had
I hope that this season won't be the end of her story! Same with Javier as well, I really enjoy him and his speeches are something else!
Hell I had goosbumps when he said Clementine was his friend after he betrayed her and when was burying Mariana.
My honest to God answer is yes, I am very Clem biased.
But come on, logically, I know Clem to be a good and honest person. She has no underlying motive and she is literally a survivor. Taking her side is not to take the side of what's bad out there. Until we get shown that Clem has ill intent towards me, and would kill me for food, I'll be taking her side. She's one of the few honest good people out there, even if cold. You can hardly blame her after what she's been through. She's not trying to manipulate or play me, why should I her?
Whenever Clem do something, just try to see it from her perspective and u may understand why she did it.
But when I actually play as Clem or Javi, whenever I had to pick a choice, I try to take it from my perspective, (because they supposed to represent my character and thoughts right?)
With that being said, I understand why Clem lied, because from her perspective, she had lost too many people and it's too hard for her to trust new people, and she is afraid from knowing new people cuz she is afraid from the same thing happen again (she literally tell you that in ep2)
So when she first meets Javi she just tell him she was their prisoner, she was afraid if she told him the truth he maybe judge her too fast and turn against her or start thinking she is a villian or something.
I mean what would you do if you ran into someone you're just met and barely know him?? would you really tell him your secrets and be sure he will immediately understand it??
But still, despite the fact that she barely know him, she saved his life twice and she got him back to his family. And that alone is really kind from someone u just met on the street and have no idea about you.
after the shock of TNF controlling Richmond, and after everything they're been through she felt that Javi is a good person and he may understand her secret, but before she tells him, Telltale gave us that Clem flashback and it was there to justify her joining TNF, and make players know why did she joined them.
she basically had nobody, she had no food, and she had a hungry baby to take care of, so forgiving her was an easy decision for me.
And despite all of that, she didn't continue on the lie and she was brave enough to tell Javi the truth and she trusted him in that, and that's something.
So don't call me a Clem-biased just because i always side with her, I just put myself in her shoes and tried to know why she did it, and i found it enough reason to trust and believe her, and back her up.
People tend to be stupid when it comes to thinking plot through. Siding with Clem makes as much sense as not siding with her in these instances.
Throwing her under the bus for the accident would be a wuss move, especially if you feel you owe this kid for helping you and you don't trust the others either and fear they'll be too harsh on a kid before they get the facts.
Helping your family is a legit choice, but after some pricks shoot your niece in the head? A lot of people would want to fight back and would feel like you're betraying you're niece by running off too quick. Plus you want to cover the van. If Clem wasn't going to stay and there was no cover, why wouldn't the attackers shoot and chase as you escaped with wounded?
As for Conrad, sure, you're angry with Clem for being tangentially associated with the enemy, but she just helped us shoot and kill them too, so any decent person would know that she isn't the enemy, that her story is more complicated than that. And in this crappy WD universe where folks prey on each other mercilessly, if you want to be the one halfway decent human being, you'd want to insist on giving someone who just helped you fight the enemy a chance to explain. Using her as bait or a bargaining chip, despite the help she gave and despite your understanding that nothing is black and white and folks are often forced to make choices they regret in the WD world, sort of makes you as heartlessly practical as the enemy. And when a decent person, like Conrad, snaps and shows himself to be heartlessly practical, and TT like the limited storytellers they are hamstring you into shooting Conrad or selling Clem like cattle (when in reality, the reasonable choice is to say put the gun down and we'll talk about this with the rest of the group... Cuz regardless we have a ways to walk before we get there...), it is perfectly reasonable to shoot Conrad. Because in that moment, he is being the more unreasonable prick.