While this is not a direct reply to the thread, since folks are talking about the handling of models, I like to have a say.
To be fair, Telltale has reused textures/models in previous Walking Dead games. Take Nate's hat, a blue version of Kenny's. Mark's black shirt is a re-colour of Lee's with an added imprint on the back. Clem's S1 Ep2 look is an edit of Ep1's. The RV from the motor inn, same one in S2Ep4 trailer park. And then there's Sarah's backpack too. I can go on.
As for using same models with minor changes in ANF, some are laughably noticeable (such as the Rufus guy) but I think Telltale considered to use extras in the same manner as with their walkers, of course those who are recognizable shouldn't be seen as a different person later on.
Finally, when reusing one's model to form another character (for example Clem and Mariana, Kenny and David) I think it helps. Think of drawing a picture, you create a basic shape of the person, chances are you use the same shape but you build something from that shape into something different. Take Resident Evil 4's Ashley Graham for example, Jill Valentine's model (REmake) was used as the base and from there it was made into a new character. As long as it's done well, then it's not exactly a problem (of course, Kenny's S3 beard would like to have a word with me or how Jane's S3 model is seen as an edited extra in the Prescott bar) but you get the idea. I have no problem with reuse of models, as long as it's done cleverly and with respect.
Of course, misusing models and the misconceptions/nonsensical moments as what others pointed out is definitely an issue.
I think you may have misinterpreted it. They were going to Richmond and just found Eleanor and Kate were in danger so now they had an excuse to go after TNF. Francine is the reason he said that.
Because it's seen as splitting 2 hours worth of content which could have easily been consolidated into one episode and having it take up two places in the season.
Therefore, we essentially get two halves of one episode across two episode spaces.
And so it sets up a worrying line of questioning - is every episode going to be this size? How much work is being put in if the length of each episode is turning even smaller than previous additions? How do we know that subtracting an episodes worth of content from the season isn't being done under the justification of cutting costs? Can we hope to see an improvement from TellTale in this area?
I think you may have misinterpreted it. They were going to Richmond and just found Eleanor and Kate were in danger so now they had an excuse to go after TNF. Francine is the reason he said that.
Because it's seen as splitting 2 hours worth of content which could have easily been consolidated into one episode and having it take up two… more places in the season.
Therefore, we essentially get two halves of one episode across two episode spaces.
And so it sets up a worrying line of questioning - is every episode going to be this size? How much work is being put in if the length of each episode is turning even smaller than previous additions? How do we know that subtracting an episodes worth of content from the season isn't being done under the justification of cutting costs? Can we hope to see an improvement from TellTale in this area?
As I said in other threads, Game development isn't as easy as "flipping a switch to make everything awesome."
Telltale is probably laughing at posts like yours, because of the absurdity that comes with your claims. I mean, i certainly do.
There is a reason, why there are no Telltale Staff members in this section of the forum anymore. I'd actually say it's probably the worst forum i've ever been part of. All this toxic behavior without proper knowledge of game development.
Some people should really think about how certain things work, before claiming that someone is lazy.
I would say it's greedy more than lazy because of all the talk of having to split episode 1 into two because it's too big and the episode being as an average season 2 episode when it's played together.
It's greedy because its asking the same amount of money for five episodes when they've only done four.
It's lazy because they could only come up with four episodes worth of story and felt the need to pretend the episode was too big.
How about when you sneak up on Jesus he had his coat and hat set up like a dummy. But when you turn around he's wearing the same coat and hat. Pretty damn lazy right there to be very certain.
Just because he wanted payback for Francine didn't guarantee that Tripp would go after the New Frontier for what happened to Prescott. Plus, they were going to Richmond for help and didn't know the New Frontier had occupied it yet, so now their interests convened.
There seems to be a very bright light coming through the blinds of Carver's office, and it looks like sunlight, which I don't know how is possible considering his office is quite high up and deep within the building.
I believe the concept art that came out a while before release implied that the place was somewhat falling about, as the office was in noticeable disarray and the sunlight could be seen through the windows as well. Maybe there's a hole in the roof or something.
To clarify: i didn't liked the episodes either. I actually think, that those two episodes are the weakest episodes of all TWD Seasons. And again, i actually agree with most, if not all, complains, but these flaws aren't because of the lazyness of the devs, but because of missmanagement of the whole team. They should've planned at least several seasons ahead, instead of writing the seasons as they go. But again, neither the writers nor the actual devs decide, when they can work on it. It's the Management that does.
And regarding the splitting part: I don't say, that it's complex to cut one Episode into two, but there has to be done some coding for it to work. Not much, but some. And if you keep in mind, that the Telltale Tool is held together by duct tape, it can actually take time to get it to work. So they have to use menpower to do it, which is critical, if you consider the rather small size of the team.
Then you have the constant rewrites, which made it pretty much impossible to get a cohesive Story done. Working on an Episodic Game with insane deadlines means only one thing: Crunch. We like to think about the writers, if we discuss an episode, but there are dozens of people working on an episode. The Writers may be the most essential part of the story, but everything that ties all that shit together is because of the actual devs. artists, programmers, designers, sound designers and many more.
I'm sorry, that i came of as an asshole. This is a difficult discussion for me for several reasons i cannot talk about. I just hope people start to respect the actual devs a little bit more. It's really not their fault. Who ever is in charge of the management and it's decision should get all the shitstorms they can get for what they burden the devs with. The Gaming industry is really exploitative in regards to it's staff and its practises.
Honestly, I don't know that I would call them lazy for the simple fact that 6 months before the game was launched, it was announced by a company in a video that had no idea what they were going to do. They said as much about the E3 trailer when asked about Javiers tattoo, and there's so many things pointing towards this based on the loose descriptions of what the game was up until the VGA trailer. "Javier will be playable in addition to Clementine", "This is a new story as much as it is a continuation", etc.
Javier has not been a playable protagonist in addition, he's the primary protagonist and it is no where near parallel to being a new story as much as it is a continuation, this is just a new story. The only callbacks to the previous game are the very short flashbacks and Clementine/AJ, both of whom would work in a brand new game with the way they're presented in the story. Short flashbacks to show she wasn't always alone, then its back to doing whatever it is Javier does. I really don't think they had any idea where they wanted to go until the eleventh hour.
The poor quality of Jane and Kenny's models are upsetting, but it kinda ties into my next thing regarding the timeline and reused assets. The game was announced for release in November, but then it was radio silence until the final days of the month when the delay was revealed, because the "episode was too big for one release" and we essentially got 2 episodes slightly longer combined than a season 2 episode, and about equal or shorter in length to a season 1 episode. It would not surprise me at all if they didn't start throwing ideas around for what to actually do in November or October as far as the story goes. And now you've got this extremely short amount of time where they're putting the story together, and it ends up with "hey, lets introduce two large communities at once, one with enough firepower to overrun other groups with ease and another that won't make it past two visits from Javier."
So in addition to the main, named characters we've got a bunch of throwaway bullet magnets who will, at best, get 5 minutes screen time or at worst, a few seconds and absolutely no lines of dialogue. The detail on the primary characters is great, work went into them and it shows. Kenny, Jane, the NF foot soldiers, the citizens of Prescott, they're all assets that will barely be used because the writers want the game to be bigger than it should or needs to be, in some epic story where we've got a bunch of people who mean absolutely nothing because only the main characters will have any meaningful interaction. Even the bandits in S1E3 had a confrontation with the main characters, most of these NF grunts and Prescott citizens are there purely to show they existed before they died. So is the actual settlement of Prescott, all of that put together to say "hey, this was here before it wasn't" and we're then sent immediately on the road. A lot of the previous seasons episodes took place in central locations, the drug store, the farm, the train, Crawford, the cabin, Kenny's groups place, the Hardware store, the groups camp. Episode 5 is when the big exodus took place, not when the seasons started. And even then, there was never a reliance on the existence of unnamed characters being seen once or twice so the player would know they existed.
So considering the entire nature of what Telltale told us about the game and story changed within weeks of release after a last second delay and completely new description of the game, I don't really blame the developers for reusing assets because I don't really think they had a lot of time to create them. I put this solely on the many writers throwing as much into the game as they could with as little time as they had because they felt an grand epic tale would be more suitable for a game that's followed a few characters on a personal journey until ANF released. They've not only discarded the previous seasons and left the one remaining character in the background, they've changed the entire feel of the game unnecessarily and with unrealistic expectations of the people who have to make it actually come to life.
It's a little thing, but when the walkers overrun the gas station later in episode 2, Conrad will blame Clementine for the fall of Prescott … moreeven if you chose to open fire.
When Clem tells Tripp to calm down, Conrad just comes out of nowhere and goes "we wouldn't even be in this mess if it wasn't for you!" It also made Conrad seem like even more of an ass.
Mistakes isn't a word i would use to describe Season 3. More like a travesty.
Actually come to think of it, mistake is kind of the right word...it was a mistake to even make this 3rd game
There seems to be a very bright light coming through the blinds of Carver's office, and it looks like sunlight, which I don't know how is po… moressible considering his office is quite high up and deep within the building.
I believe the concept art that came out a while before release implied that the place was somewhat falling about, as the office was in noticeable disarray and the sunlight could be seen through the windows as well. Maybe there's a hole in the roof or something.
Comments
Episode 2 - Conrad: "Now we have a reason to go after those fuckers" Wasn't losing Francine your reason prior to meeting Jesus?!?!?!?!?
While this is not a direct reply to the thread, since folks are talking about the handling of models, I like to have a say.
To be fair, Telltale has reused textures/models in previous Walking Dead games. Take Nate's hat, a blue version of Kenny's. Mark's black shirt is a re-colour of Lee's with an added imprint on the back. Clem's S1 Ep2 look is an edit of Ep1's. The RV from the motor inn, same one in S2Ep4 trailer park. And then there's Sarah's backpack too. I can go on.
As for using same models with minor changes in ANF, some are laughably noticeable (such as the Rufus guy) but I think Telltale considered to use extras in the same manner as with their walkers, of course those who are recognizable shouldn't be seen as a different person later on.
Finally, when reusing one's model to form another character (for example Clem and Mariana, Kenny and David) I think it helps. Think of drawing a picture, you create a basic shape of the person, chances are you use the same shape but you build something from that shape into something different. Take Resident Evil 4's Ashley Graham for example, Jill Valentine's model (REmake) was used as the base and from there it was made into a new character. As long as it's done well, then it's not exactly a problem (of course, Kenny's S3 beard would like to have a word with me or how Jane's S3 model is seen as an edited extra in the Prescott bar) but you get the idea. I have no problem with reuse of models, as long as it's done cleverly and with respect.
Of course, misusing models and the misconceptions/nonsensical moments as what others pointed out is definitely an issue.
That particular instance isn't laziness with A New Frontier.
That's just Conrad being his idiot/grieving self.
HOW is splitting up a decently-lengthened episode into two "episodes" NOT lazy?
I think you may have misinterpreted it. They were going to Richmond and just found Eleanor and Kate were in danger so now they had an excuse to go after TNF. Francine is the reason he said that.
How is it lazy, though?
Yeah, it's more greedy than lazy
Because it's seen as splitting 2 hours worth of content which could have easily been consolidated into one episode and having it take up two places in the season.
Therefore, we essentially get two halves of one episode across two episode spaces.
And so it sets up a worrying line of questioning - is every episode going to be this size? How much work is being put in if the length of each episode is turning even smaller than previous additions? How do we know that subtracting an episodes worth of content from the season isn't being done under the justification of cutting costs? Can we hope to see an improvement from TellTale in this area?
Don't blame the character, blame the writing.
So losing their entire community to The New Frontier wasn't reason enough?
Uhm, no. An unlikeable character doesn't mean the writing is bad. Some people just suck.
ANF had some lackluster writing, but not for that reason.
No, I'm just saying that he wanted to go after them, but they couldn't because it wasn't safe, now they had an excuse to do it anyway.
If it were only one episode, the game would have more content, like one more episode.. I believe.
Splitting an episode into two episodes requires additional work. It's greedy, not lazy.
"Kenny will remember that" what are Clem going to meet Kenny and Lee at spirit world or something?
As I said in other threads, Game development isn't as easy as "flipping a switch to make everything awesome."
Telltale is probably laughing at posts like yours, because of the absurdity that comes with your claims. I mean, i certainly do.
There is a reason, why there are no Telltale Staff members in this section of the forum anymore. I'd actually say it's probably the worst forum i've ever been part of. All this toxic behavior without proper knowledge of game development.
Some people should really think about how certain things work, before claiming that someone is lazy.
I would say it's greedy more than lazy because of all the talk of having to split episode 1 into two because it's too big and the episode being as an average season 2 episode when it's played together.
It's greedy because its asking the same amount of money for five episodes when they've only done four.
It's lazy because they could only come up with four episodes worth of story and felt the need to pretend the episode was too big.
I'm pretty sure he had two pairs.
I mean did you WANT to see Jesus naked?
Why would he have two sets? And why do you think he would be naked under the coat and hat?
Why would he have two sets? And why do you think he would be naked under the coat and hat?
Isn't everyone in a trench coat and hat naked underneath? I mean I usually am.
Just because he wanted payback for Francine didn't guarantee that Tripp would go after the New Frontier for what happened to Prescott. Plus, they were going to Richmond for help and didn't know the New Frontier had occupied it yet, so now their interests convened.
[removed]
Bingo.
I believe the concept art that came out a while before release implied that the place was somewhat falling about, as the office was in noticeable disarray and the sunlight could be seen through the windows as well. Maybe there's a hole in the roof or something.
Literally everything is a mistake.
I think that this game is a disgrace not only to the game series, but to the entire franchise.
To clarify: i didn't liked the episodes either. I actually think, that those two episodes are the weakest episodes of all TWD Seasons. And again, i actually agree with most, if not all, complains, but these flaws aren't because of the lazyness of the devs, but because of missmanagement of the whole team. They should've planned at least several seasons ahead, instead of writing the seasons as they go. But again, neither the writers nor the actual devs decide, when they can work on it. It's the Management that does.
And regarding the splitting part: I don't say, that it's complex to cut one Episode into two, but there has to be done some coding for it to work. Not much, but some. And if you keep in mind, that the Telltale Tool is held together by duct tape, it can actually take time to get it to work. So they have to use menpower to do it, which is critical, if you consider the rather small size of the team.
Then you have the constant rewrites, which made it pretty much impossible to get a cohesive Story done. Working on an Episodic Game with insane deadlines means only one thing: Crunch. We like to think about the writers, if we discuss an episode, but there are dozens of people working on an episode. The Writers may be the most essential part of the story, but everything that ties all that shit together is because of the actual devs. artists, programmers, designers, sound designers and many more.
I'm sorry, that i came of as an asshole. This is a difficult discussion for me for several reasons i cannot talk about. I just hope people start to respect the actual devs a little bit more. It's really not their fault. Who ever is in charge of the management and it's decision should get all the shitstorms they can get for what they burden the devs with. The Gaming industry is really exploitative in regards to it's staff and its practises.
Honestly, I don't know that I would call them lazy for the simple fact that 6 months before the game was launched, it was announced by a company in a video that had no idea what they were going to do. They said as much about the E3 trailer when asked about Javiers tattoo, and there's so many things pointing towards this based on the loose descriptions of what the game was up until the VGA trailer. "Javier will be playable in addition to Clementine", "This is a new story as much as it is a continuation", etc.
Javier has not been a playable protagonist in addition, he's the primary protagonist and it is no where near parallel to being a new story as much as it is a continuation, this is just a new story. The only callbacks to the previous game are the very short flashbacks and Clementine/AJ, both of whom would work in a brand new game with the way they're presented in the story. Short flashbacks to show she wasn't always alone, then its back to doing whatever it is Javier does. I really don't think they had any idea where they wanted to go until the eleventh hour.
The poor quality of Jane and Kenny's models are upsetting, but it kinda ties into my next thing regarding the timeline and reused assets. The game was announced for release in November, but then it was radio silence until the final days of the month when the delay was revealed, because the "episode was too big for one release" and we essentially got 2 episodes slightly longer combined than a season 2 episode, and about equal or shorter in length to a season 1 episode. It would not surprise me at all if they didn't start throwing ideas around for what to actually do in November or October as far as the story goes. And now you've got this extremely short amount of time where they're putting the story together, and it ends up with "hey, lets introduce two large communities at once, one with enough firepower to overrun other groups with ease and another that won't make it past two visits from Javier."
So in addition to the main, named characters we've got a bunch of throwaway bullet magnets who will, at best, get 5 minutes screen time or at worst, a few seconds and absolutely no lines of dialogue. The detail on the primary characters is great, work went into them and it shows. Kenny, Jane, the NF foot soldiers, the citizens of Prescott, they're all assets that will barely be used because the writers want the game to be bigger than it should or needs to be, in some epic story where we've got a bunch of people who mean absolutely nothing because only the main characters will have any meaningful interaction. Even the bandits in S1E3 had a confrontation with the main characters, most of these NF grunts and Prescott citizens are there purely to show they existed before they died. So is the actual settlement of Prescott, all of that put together to say "hey, this was here before it wasn't" and we're then sent immediately on the road. A lot of the previous seasons episodes took place in central locations, the drug store, the farm, the train, Crawford, the cabin, Kenny's groups place, the Hardware store, the groups camp. Episode 5 is when the big exodus took place, not when the seasons started. And even then, there was never a reliance on the existence of unnamed characters being seen once or twice so the player would know they existed.
So considering the entire nature of what Telltale told us about the game and story changed within weeks of release after a last second delay and completely new description of the game, I don't really blame the developers for reusing assets because I don't really think they had a lot of time to create them. I put this solely on the many writers throwing as much into the game as they could with as little time as they had because they felt an grand epic tale would be more suitable for a game that's followed a few characters on a personal journey until ANF released. They've not only discarded the previous seasons and left the one remaining character in the background, they've changed the entire feel of the game unnecessarily and with unrealistic expectations of the people who have to make it actually come to life.
Mistakes isn't a word i would use to describe Season 3. More like a travesty.
Actually come to think of it, mistake is kind of the right word...it was a mistake to even make this 3rd game
I think that Conrad blames Clementine because she was the one that suggested that they should go to Richmond, and they were trapped because of that.
You are right on that.
you can look down into his office through the sky light.
get rid of that Cosby shit!
Oh, that's right!
Nope, it a hard work omg is not that simple as you think (talking with title)