* Sarah wouldn't have died.
* Clementine would have figured out the guts trick in In Harm's Way.
* Troy wouldn't have been castrated and e… moreaten by the herd. I hate Troy, but this would be prevented.
* Vitali would have killed Kenny in No Going Back.
* Maybe Mike or Bonnie would go with Clementine at the trailer park.
* She wouldn't have been killed by Kenny in No Going Back based on the character's choices.
That's all I can think of right now at least.
Of course, she would have. If Jane and Clementine had not been able to find Luke and Sarah in the room of the trailer, walkers would've broken in and devoured them both. Jane's existence is necessary for Sarah to survive that situation.
Clementine would have figured out the guts trick in In Harm's Way.
Agreed.
Troy wouldn't have been castrated and eaten by the herd. I hate Troy, but this would be prevented.
I agree that mutilating Troy and leaving him to be devoured was immoral, but, again, the group would not have been able to get past that point. If it weren't for Jane's sweet-talk, all characters would've been mowed down with bullets of the assault rifle.
Vitali would have killed Kenny in No Going Back.
Since the conflict with Arvo's group happened as a result of Jane taking his revolver and his bag of supplies, the shootout would not have happened—all characters would have been killed by Troy; or at least we can conclude so.
* Sarah wouldn't have died.
* Clementine would have figured out the guts trick in In Harm's Way.
* Troy wouldn't have been castrated and e… moreaten by the herd. I hate Troy, but this would be prevented.
* Vitali would have killed Kenny in No Going Back.
* Maybe Mike or Bonnie would go with Clementine at the trailer park.
* She wouldn't have been killed by Kenny in No Going Back based on the character's choices.
That's all I can think of right now at least.
Didn't Rebecca have Carver's magnum? She could technically have killed Troy before he killed all of them, although I doubt Rebecca had a hidden quickdraw talent.
Of course, she would have. If Jane and Clementine had not been able to find Luke and Sarah in the room of the trailer, walkers would've broken in and devoured them both. Jane's existence is necessary for Sarah to survive that situation.
What if Mike or Bonnie went with her (Clem) instead?
Agreed.
Good.
I agree that mutilating Troy and leaving him to be devoured was immoral, but, again, the group would not have been able to get past that point. If it weren't for Jane's sweet-talk, all characters would've been mowed down with bullets of the assault rifle.
I didn't say Jane shooting Troy was bad, but okay.
Since the conflict with Arvo's group happened as a result of Jane taking his revolver and his bag of supplies, the shootout would not have happened—all characters would have been killed by Troy; or at least we can conclude so.
Sarah wouldn't have died.
Of course, she would have. If Jane and Clementine had not been able to find Luke and Sarah in the room of … morethe trailer, walkers would've broken in and devoured them both. Jane's existence is necessary for Sarah to survive that situation.
Clementine would have figured out the guts trick in In Harm's Way.
Agreed.
Troy wouldn't have been castrated and eaten by the herd. I hate Troy, but this would be prevented.
I agree that mutilating Troy and leaving him to be devoured was immoral, but, again, the group would not have been able to get past that point. If it weren't for Jane's sweet-talk, all characters would've been mowed down with bullets of the assault rifle.
Vitali would have killed Kenny in No Going Back.
Since the conflict with Arvo's group happened as a result of Jane taking his revolver and his bag of supplies, the shootout would not have happened—all characters would have been killed by Troy; or at least we can conclude so.
Considering he was more interested in yelling at them demanding to know what's going on, I somehow doubt he would've gotten that far. If one of the group didn't kill or at least persuade him to calm down, the walkers likely would've come after him. Granted, him shooting at them would spook the others, but the point still stands.
Not to mention assuming he'd just up and kill them is a bit much considering how lazy he seemed, along with the fact that Carver clearly wanted Rebecca and Carlos alive.
I hate how Clem is now though, I spent two seasons to keep her from turning into someone like Jane. And the fact that it still happens even if you go against Jane and hold family to a higher regard pisses me off infinitely.
I think Jane definitely positively impacted Clementine. The knowledge and clever characteristics Jane passed to Clem were definitely benefic… moreial to her and I believe not many other people could of shaped Clementine to be as hardcore and impenetrable as she is in S3, Jane helped shape Clem to be this way
I wouldn't say Jane was very crucial to Clementine's survival. Sure, the knee thing, whatever, there are plenty of ways to kill a walker, for an infinite amount of examples look at Carl. What else did Jane teach her? How to be a survivor? I wouldn't even say that. With how Jane was living she was just one of the walkers, there was nothing there that made her human anymore.
Would Clementine even survive after season 2 if she didn't learn the things that Jane taught her?
This sounds truly groundbreaking, … morebut was Jane really a prominent figure of mentor there? Clem has already used this knee trick back on that bridge. She is one smart sweet pea, ingenious and clever enough to figure on her own every other "lesson" that Jane has taught her. Making a fire using a nail file? Wow, I'm sure no one else (for example Christa) ever showed her how to make a fire. TBH none of them lessons was really innovative, it was just the game which tried to quick-build a relationship to get Clem and Jane closer for the final fight between her and Kenny.
The group would have gone through with another plan that might've ended in the collective deaths of many more people, or maybe they all would have come to their senses and decided to stay in the camp until they got an opening. Let's just say that they got out somehow and people lived though. Carlos might have survived, which would have kept Sarah afloat and probably even prevented her death. Sarita might have never died, preventing the unhinging of Kenny and possibly causing him to be more cooperative. Nick and Luke would have never been looking for Sarah, Nick would have lived. I would assume everything would play out the same until the walker attack, where Rebecca would give birth as normal. Luke would have never been off guard and, if they got the gift shop opened in the first place, the group might have been able to fight off the walkers. Clementine might not have been as hardened, but I'm sure Kenny would show her the way. I'm going to stop there because anything could happen with that many variables, people might have even survived the season.
God damnit I really wish telltale did this, I mean if we the fans can figure out a way to make seasons 2 decisions matter like this example, it really blows my mind how telltale cant. They should really just take a whole day and think about everything.
It would make perfect sense if Clementine's portrayal in S3 depended on S2 endings. If only...
* with Jane - Clem is isolated, focused … moreonly on surviving, she avoids contact with others; holds back her emotions and is sceptical or even negative about being with other people and bonding with them.
* with Kenny - Clem cares about AJ more than anything else, does whatever it takes to keep him safe and alive; she might be looking for a community or friendly group to join them and create appropriate conditions for AJ to grow up.
If I recall correctly, you have to kick the knee in order to progress. It was another walker you're talking about, with it you got the choice to either pick up a pipe or Luke's machete and then stab that walker in the head, torso or stomach.
With how Jane was living she was just one of the walkers, there was nothing there that made her human anymore.
The only thing left inside of her now is her urge to feed. Without her mind, there will be no more human attachments to distract her. Now, she is pure.
I wouldn't say Jane was very crucial to Clementine's survival. Sure, the knee thing, whatever, there are plenty of ways to kill a walker, fo… morer an infinite amount of examples look at Carl. What else did Jane teach her? How to be a survivor? I wouldn't even say that. With how Jane was living she was just one of the walkers, there was nothing there that made her human anymore.
It would make perfect sense if Clementine's portrayal in S3 depended on S2 endings. If only...
* with Jane - Clem is isolated, focused … moreonly on surviving, she avoids contact with others; holds back her emotions and is sceptical or even negative about being with other people and bonding with them.
* with Kenny - Clem cares about AJ more than anything else, does whatever it takes to keep him safe and alive; she might be looking for a community or friendly group to join them and create appropriate conditions for AJ to grow up.
She wouldn't do The knee thing
Yeah clem did it from before but that dosen't mean clem was going to make it as a basic move to her till jane told her to make it so will have a clementine with Random capabilities survival instead of clem who we know.
Sarah will die any. way cus she lost it even if luke go down for her he will never be able to help her cus she was Panicked and luke was messed up the only way she might survive was mike he got the power.
Clem without what jane told her might keep using the axe to kill the walkers and i agree its the worse surviving tool you might use to kill a walker.
How should clem be if she go with kenny or jane
Clem of jane:
Without emotions and rational think first before acting
care only about surviving and mading the hard choice for that
Skilled and a smart surviver with the safety first as the main target to her
alone wolf dosen't trust no one
Clem of kenny
very emotinal girl who her emotiones may drag her far away.
Care about the safety of ppl she like before her safety
Random capabilities survival
A groupe member can trust ppl around her and ppl trust her
Any way if there is something i can say its all telltale mistake for her bad writing i mean what the use of five ending if they have no imapact on the main character.
why i go with jane if she told me nothing more.
why i go with kenny if any other clementine in the other 3 flash backs can drive.
why i go to willington if i gonna end up out of her any why.
Wouldn't it? I mean, Jane's existence doesn't affect Arvo coming to the observation deck to hide the meds. At best, there would be no option to rob Arvo, but his group would still be notified of our existence and they would've come after us as in the original.
Only if someone actively confronts him. Remember that Clementine only got caught cause she picked the cannon as a hiding spot while Jane picked the corner(and somehow avoided detection with despite looking like a butch Naruto),so she might not have been seen had she picked that instead. Even then, its very likely the same circumstances would've been avoided for the most part had Luke, Mike, or even Sarah had tagged along. Also, Arvo didn't seem recognize Kenny or Rebecca for some reason, so he might not have known about the group's existence without meeting Clementine.
Wouldn't it? I mean, Jane's existence doesn't affect Arvo coming to the observation deck to hide the meds. At best, there would be no option… more to rob Arvo, but his group would still be notified of our existence and they would've come after us as in the original.
I hate how Clem is now though, I spent two seasons to keep her from turning into someone like Jane. And the fact that it still happens even if you go against Jane and hold family to a higher regard pisses me off infinitely.
Sarah will die any. way cus she lost it even if luke go down for her he will never be able to help her cus she was Panicked and luke was messed up the only way she might survive was mike he got the power.
She wouldn't do The knee thing
Yeah clem did it from before but that dosen't mean clem was going to make it as a basic move to her till ja… morene told her to make it so will have a clementine with Random capabilities survival instead of clem who we know.
Sarah will die any. way cus she lost it even if luke go down for her he will never be able to help her cus she was Panicked and luke was messed up the only way she might survive was mike he got the power.
Clem without what jane told her might keep using the axe to kill the walkers and i agree its the worse surviving tool you might use to kill a walker.
How should clem be if she go with kenny or jane
Clem of jane:
Without emotions and rational think first before acting
care only about surviving and mading the hard choice for that
Skilled and a smart surviver with the safety first as the main target to her
alone wolf dosen't trust no one
Clem of kenny
very emoti… [view original content]
Clem would have been peachy keen without Jane's influence. These are the "lessons" that Jane taught Clem, based on the story generator:
Survival if you're not breathing, nothing else matters. Do what's necessary. Stay alive.
Cunning in a world of constant danger, dont take anyone at their word. Nothing is as it seems.
Independence don't rely on others. You need to get by on your own, because that's probably how you'll end up.
Wow, what absolutely pessimistic "lessons". I'm pretty sure that this is the opposite of how we tried to raise Clementine throughout season 1 as Lee. Lee did not want to raise a selfish, distrusting asshole that cared about nothing except drawing her next breath. Meanwhile Kenny taught Clem about honesty, determination, and family. Luke taught her compassion, cooperation, and trust.
Along with Jane's suicide, Telltale practically spelled it out for us that Jane was a poor mentor and guardian. Oh, and Clem already knew the knee trick lol.
God damnit I really wish telltale did this, I mean if we the fans can figure out a way to make seasons 2 decisions matter like this example,… more it really blows my mind how telltale cant. They should really just take a whole day and think about everything.
Clem would have been peachy keen without Jane's influence. These are the "lessons" that Jane taught Clem, based on the story generator:
… more
* Survival if you're not breathing, nothing else matters. Do what's necessary. Stay alive.
* Cunning in a world of constant danger, dont take anyone at their word. Nothing is as it seems.
* Independence don't rely on others. You need to get by on your own, because that's probably how you'll end up.
Wow, what absolutely pessimistic "lessons". I'm pretty sure that this is the opposite of how we tried to raise Clementine throughout season 1 as Lee. Lee did not want to raise a selfish, distrusting asshole that cared about nothing except drawing her next breath. Meanwhile Kenny taught Clem about honesty, determination, and family. Luke taught her compassion, cooperation, and trust.
Along with Jane's suicide, Telltale practically spelled it out for us that Jane was a poor mentor and guardian. Oh, and Clem already knew the knee trick lol.
Would they have known? If Clem was all by herself and never robbed Arvo he had no way of knowing Clem was part of a group.
I highly doubt the group would send the 11-year-old to check the observation deck by herself. I believe she would be sent there with Luke, maybe someone else, but alone? I don't believe it.
Not to mention that if Clem really went alone the whole group would've died since, unlike Jane/Luke (and Lee too!), Clem doesn't know how to pick a lock.
Clem was all by herself and she wouldn't need to mention she was with other people because she had no intention of robbing Arvo in the first place.
Even if Clem was somehow sent alone to check the observation deck, and the group somehow survived Rebecca's labor without shelter, the Russian group surely would still come after Clem. I can't see what's the difference between knowing about Clem's existence and knowing about Clem's and Jane's existence.
nevertheless, if you find an 11-year-old all by herself, I think Arvo would assume that she was with other people, no?
So no, Arvo would not have been able to notify of the group's existence, hence the ambush would have never been planned.
Ok, maybe it was my wording. Arvo might not have been able to tell Clem had a group, sure, fine, even though he probably would have assumed it, but knowing about one person only or knowing about a whole group would not have made the ambush not happen.
Well considering that Arvo's group don't even know about Clem's group
Instead of knowing about Clem and Jane they would instead only know of Clem, which makes no difference. In hindsight, in the original, he doesn't even know about the "group". He only knows about Clem and Jane and that's enough to make the ambush happen.
Revenge and 'justice' was a huge driving force for the Russian's attack on the group. Arvo's group members found it amusing that two girls, especially a young child, robbed Arvo, you could tell they thought it was humorously humiliating. If Jane and Clem never robbed Arvo, the group would have had no proper reason or driving force to ambush Clem's group. Again, this is if they even meet at all.
You can not rob Arvo though and they still come after you. The Russian group (more specifically Buricko and Vitali (and Natasha?)) comes after us to steal from us, not "revenge". You can tell as much when they decide to outright ambush us instead of simply asking for the pistol/meds back, like a group of good people would.
I believe their motivation was to get supplies from us, because they are bandits.
Only if someone actively confronts him. Remember that Clementine only got caught cause she picked the cannon as a hiding spot while Jane picked the corner(and somehow avoided detection with despite looking like a butch Naruto),so she might not have been seen had she picked that instead.
Again, are we assuming Luke just sends the eleven-year-old to scavenge on her own? ^~^ I firmly believe that someone else would've gone with her, probably Luke who would probably try to reason/talk with Arvo.
Also, Arvo didn't seem recognize Kenny or Rebecca for some reason, so he might not have known about the group's existence without meeting Clementine.
Yeah, I didn't express myself very well. What I meant is, the Russian group would still know of Clem's existence and gone after her.
Uh, hi. So... I'm not sure if you tagged me to answer to this but... I will anyway.
What else did Jane teach her?
The cow catcher technique to get past a very dense cluster of walkers.
To keep an eye out for fresh walkers since those are more prone to having stuff on them (i.e. bullets, knives, guns, holsters, etc.)
To always make sure a walker is really dead before searching or get close (which actually helps Clem the fight scene after).
To use piercing weapons (screwdriver) instead of heavy hitting weapons (Luke's ax) because the latter are more prone to get stuck.
The knee trick, as you mentioned. Also worth noting that this trick has clearly become a habit of Clem's, something she does pretty much intuitively. Which means that for the past 2-3 years this trick as been keeping her alive and kicking, which proves just how useful it really is.
To stab/pierce/hit walkers in the back of their head, rather than try to stab their skull (I still don't get how in the hell people in TWD can just pierce a human skull with some petty knives).
She tells and (determinant) shows her that a fire can be started by using a nail file.
And let's not forget, all this, in the timespan of 2 days, which is pretty damn much.
We can also assume that Jane taught Clem to drive during their time at Howe's and how to tend to the greenhouse.
On top of all that she also generally gives good advice. She is the one who thinks of the plan of going back to Howe's, which, should you chose to pursue, proves to be a success and a great idea.
With how Jane was living she was just one of the walkers, there was nothing there that made her human anymore.
Prior to her return in No Going Back? A big, big maybe on that, but in No Going Back definitely no.
When she came back she showed to have realized that her way of living wasn't that good. She showed to want to stick with our group, she even says it "I want to make this work". She even believes at first that Kenny can be "brought back". Can you look at Jane joking around with the others near the campfire and tell me that she wasn't being as "human" as anyone of them? Or in the moments when she had playful banter with Clem? Or when holding the baby? Jane had found a new purpose, a new way of life when she decides to come back to our group once she hears the gunshots. She wanted the group to work and she intended to stick with us, that, of course, until Kenny happened and the group fell apart and so did Jane's new objective.
What else did Jane teach her?
Oh, @IronWoodLover!
With how Jane was living she was just one of the walkers, there was nothing … morethere that made her human anymore.
The only thing left inside of her now is her urge to feed. Without her mind, there will be no more human attachments to distract her. Now, she is pure.
Something I believe most people are missing is that Clem picked up Jane's bad traits, sure, she is antisocial, distrusting and quick to judge (though that can be easily associated with the constant loss of people since the apocalypse began and the isolation and frustration of having to deal with a baby on her own for years.)
But if you look closely with the eyes of the other side, you'll also see a frustrating amount of Kenny in her, more specifically, her temper and lack of control over her emotions. Things such as "Fuck you Conrad!" or "If you wanna shoot me, just shoot me!" or "I'm old enough to put a bullet in you!" are things that my loyal to Jane Clementine would never say, yet you can clearly see where she got that temperament from: Kenny.
So, the way I see it, S3 Clem has picked up both Jane's and Kenny's major flaws. It is not one-sided.
I hate how Clem is now though, I spent two seasons to keep her from turning into someone like Jane. And the fact that it still happens even if you go against Jane and hold family to a higher regard pisses me off infinitely.
Again, are we assuming Luke just sends the eleven-year-old to scavenge on her own? ^~^
Aw, but don'cha know? She's a very valuable little girl.
I firmly believe that someone else would've gone with her, probably Luke who would probably try to reason/talk with Arvo.
True enough.
What I meant is, the Russian group would still know of Clem's existence and gone after her.
That'd be really dickish if they did that, though. I mean, yeah, while what little we see of them shows that they're "nawt nice peep-ple" and even Nick was smart enough to realize Clementine couldn't be in the Cabin area on her own, I just don't see them immediately going "Oh, a little girl, huh? Time to ride that hog!"
. @TWDazehnuu
Would they have known? If Clem was all by herself and never robbed Arvo he had no way of knowing Clem was part of a grou… morep.
I highly doubt the group would send the 11-year-old to check the observation deck by herself. I believe she would be sent there with Luke, maybe someone else, but alone? I don't believe it.
Not to mention that if Clem really went alone the whole group would've died since, unlike Jane/Luke (and Lee too!), Clem doesn't know how to pick a lock.
Clem was all by herself and she wouldn't need to mention she was with other people because she had no intention of robbing Arvo in the first place.
Even if Clem was somehow sent alone to check the observation deck, and the group somehow survived Rebecca's labor without shelter, the Russian group surely would still come after Clem. I can't see what's the difference between knowing about Clem's existence and knowing about Clem's and Jane's ex… [view original content]
I think that Clem would still be the loner survivor that stays away from groups because the stay away from groups thing came from Christa. And the kick the leg technique is learned regardless whether or not you use it. So, essentially Ill just be a Clem that met one less person.
Uh, hi. So... I'm not sure if you tagged me to answer to this but... I will anyway.
I did. I just didn't know how to do that singsongy thing without losing the link.
Can you look at Jane joking around with the others near the campfire and tell me that she wasn't being as "human" as anyone of them? Or in the moments when she had playful banter with Clem? Jane had found a new purpose, a new way of life when she decides to come back to our group once she hears the gunshots.
Admittedly, I recently realized that was a major contribution to why she was such a huge problem with the last episode and why I couldn't help but start outright hating her.
Oh, @IronWoodLover!
Uh, hi. So... I'm not sure if you tagged me to answer to this but... I will anyway.
What else did Jane tea… morech her?
* The cow catcher technique to get past a very dense cluster of walkers.
* To keep an eye out for fresh walkers since those are more prone to having stuff on them (i.e. bullets, knives, guns, holsters, etc.)
* To always make sure a walker is really dead before searching or get close (which actually helps Clem the fight scene after).
* To use piercing weapons (screwdriver) instead of heavy hitting weapons (Luke's ax) because the latter are more prone to get stuck.
* The knee trick, as you mentioned. Also worth noting that this trick has clearly become a habit of Clem's, something she does pretty much intuitively. Which means that for the past 2-3 years this trick as been keeping her alive and kicking, which proves just how useful it really is.
* To stab/pierce/hit walkers in the back… [view original content]
I think Jane did an impact on Clem, too. Since Clem and her friends only made it out of Carver's from Jane's idea of covering yourself in walker blood to make them not know they don't know who you are in their blood. And we see Clem using these new skills from Jane in S3: ANF when she first meets Javier and handcuffs him. So she may not have survived S2 without Jane.
I don't really think she picked that up from Kenny, but that's an interesting way to look at it. Clementine is literally the embodiment of Jane's flaws, and that's because they both came from similar situations. I think we can agree on one thing though, the fact that Clementine is nothing like the way we raised her is just shitty.
Something I believe most people are missing is that Clem picked up Jane's bad traits, sure, she is antisocial, distrusting and quick to judg… moree (though that can be easily associated with the constant loss of people since the apocalypse began and the isolation and frustration of having to deal with a baby on her own for years.)
But if you look closely with the eyes of the other side, you'll also see a frustrating amount of Kenny in her, more specifically, her temper and lack of control over her emotions. Things such as "Fuck you Conrad!" or "If you wanna shoot me, just shoot me!" or "I'm old enough to put a bullet in you!" are things that my loyal to Jane Clementine would never say, yet you can clearly see where she got that temperament from: Kenny.
So, the way I see it, S3 Clem has picked up both Jane's and Kenny's major flaws. It is not one-sided.
What else did Jane teach her?
Oh, @IronWoodLover!
With how Jane was living she was just one of the walkers, there was nothing … morethere that made her human anymore.
The only thing left inside of her now is her urge to feed. Without her mind, there will be no more human attachments to distract her. Now, she is pure.
I don't really think she picked that up from Kenny, but that's an interesting way to look at it. Clementine is literally the embodiment of J… moreane's flaws, and that's because they both came from similar situations. I think we can agree on one thing though, the fact that Clementine is nothing like the way we raised her is just shitty.
Jane was changing for the better, that's why I said the way she was living. She would have changed had Luke survived, and that's what killed the group, not Kenny. Luke helped keep everyone together, and without him Kenny had another reason (at least in his mind) to hate Arvo.
A big, big maybe on that
Why though? Jane trusted absolutely no one, killed callously, and I would make a bet Arvo wasn't the first person she robbed out of necessity. After Jaime died she put surviving first, above all else, but in doing so she lost touch with her human side.
We can also assume that Jane taught Clem to drive during their time at Howe's and how to tend to the greenhouse.
Wasn't she worried about running out of the food they had? I think with only the two of them they had a hard time supporting themselves.
What Jane taught her definitely helped Clementine but I don't think it was life or death advice. We don't know what Clementine has been through though so it could've saved her. I need to see more before I can one hundred percent say anything one way or another.
Oh, @IronWoodLover!
Uh, hi. So... I'm not sure if you tagged me to answer to this but... I will anyway.
What else did Jane tea… morech her?
* The cow catcher technique to get past a very dense cluster of walkers.
* To keep an eye out for fresh walkers since those are more prone to having stuff on them (i.e. bullets, knives, guns, holsters, etc.)
* To always make sure a walker is really dead before searching or get close (which actually helps Clem the fight scene after).
* To use piercing weapons (screwdriver) instead of heavy hitting weapons (Luke's ax) because the latter are more prone to get stuck.
* The knee trick, as you mentioned. Also worth noting that this trick has clearly become a habit of Clem's, something she does pretty much intuitively. Which means that for the past 2-3 years this trick as been keeping her alive and kicking, which proves just how useful it really is.
* To stab/pierce/hit walkers in the back… [view original content]
Personally i feel ShitTale made Clem to be the way she has been in S3 just the way "they" want her to be. No influence from Kenny or Jane and they obviously have cast Lee out of her mind. Telltale don't give a shit about fans and continuity.
Something I believe most people are missing is that Clem picked up Jane's bad traits, sure, she is antisocial, distrusting and quick to judg… moree (though that can be easily associated with the constant loss of people since the apocalypse began and the isolation and frustration of having to deal with a baby on her own for years.)
But if you look closely with the eyes of the other side, you'll also see a frustrating amount of Kenny in her, more specifically, her temper and lack of control over her emotions. Things such as "Fuck you Conrad!" or "If you wanna shoot me, just shoot me!" or "I'm old enough to put a bullet in you!" are things that my loyal to Jane Clementine would never say, yet you can clearly see where she got that temperament from: Kenny.
So, the way I see it, S3 Clem has picked up both Jane's and Kenny's major flaws. It is not one-sided.
Comments
Well, if Jane wasn't around, she wouldn't have stolen from Arvo and his group, so the whole conflict with the Russians probably wouldn't even happen.
Of course, she would have. If Jane and Clementine had not been able to find Luke and Sarah in the room of the trailer, walkers would've broken in and devoured them both. Jane's existence is necessary for Sarah to survive that situation.
Agreed.
I agree that mutilating Troy and leaving him to be devoured was immoral, but, again, the group would not have been able to get past that point. If it weren't for Jane's sweet-talk, all characters would've been mowed down with bullets of the assault rifle.
Since the conflict with Arvo's group happened as a result of Jane taking his revolver and his bag of supplies, the shootout would not have happened—all characters would have been killed by Troy; or at least we can conclude so.
The entire group—including Clementine—would've been killed by Troy.
Didn't Rebecca have Carver's magnum? She could technically have killed Troy before he killed all of them, although I doubt Rebecca had a hidden quickdraw talent.
What if Mike or Bonnie went with her (Clem) instead?
Good.
I didn't say Jane shooting Troy was bad, but okay.
Good point.
Considering he was more interested in yelling at them demanding to know what's going on, I somehow doubt he would've gotten that far. If one of the group didn't kill or at least persuade him to calm down, the walkers likely would've come after him. Granted, him shooting at them would spook the others, but the point still stands.
Not to mention assuming he'd just up and kill them is a bit much considering how lazy he seemed, along with the fact that Carver clearly wanted Rebecca and Carlos alive.
I hate how Clem is now though, I spent two seasons to keep her from turning into someone like Jane. And the fact that it still happens even if you go against Jane and hold family to a higher regard pisses me off infinitely.
I wouldn't say Jane was very crucial to Clementine's survival. Sure, the knee thing, whatever, there are plenty of ways to kill a walker, for an infinite amount of examples look at Carl. What else did Jane teach her? How to be a survivor? I wouldn't even say that. With how Jane was living she was just one of the walkers, there was nothing there that made her human anymore.
The group would have gone through with another plan that might've ended in the collective deaths of many more people, or maybe they all would have come to their senses and decided to stay in the camp until they got an opening. Let's just say that they got out somehow and people lived though. Carlos might have survived, which would have kept Sarah afloat and probably even prevented her death. Sarita might have never died, preventing the unhinging of Kenny and possibly causing him to be more cooperative. Nick and Luke would have never been looking for Sarah, Nick would have lived. I would assume everything would play out the same until the walker attack, where Rebecca would give birth as normal. Luke would have never been off guard and, if they got the gift shop opened in the first place, the group might have been able to fight off the walkers. Clementine might not have been as hardened, but I'm sure Kenny would show her the way. I'm going to stop there because anything could happen with that many variables, people might have even survived the season.
God damnit I really wish telltale did this, I mean if we the fans can figure out a way to make seasons 2 decisions matter like this example, it really blows my mind how telltale cant. They should really just take a whole day and think about everything.
No he's right it is a choice go look it up
Oh, @IronWoodLover!
The only thing left inside of her now is her urge to feed. Without her mind, there will be no more human attachments to distract her. Now, she is pure.
To fallandir: I actually like those ideas you put out better than what Telltale did. It would've made a whole lot difference for Clementine.
A New Frontier would never have happened. Interpret that as you wish.
She wouldn't do The knee thing
Yeah clem did it from before but that dosen't mean clem was going to make it as a basic move to her till jane told her to make it so will have a clementine with Random capabilities survival instead of clem who we know.
Sarah will die any. way cus she lost it even if luke go down for her he will never be able to help her cus she was Panicked and luke was messed up the only way she might survive was mike he got the power.
Clem without what jane told her might keep using the axe to kill the walkers and i agree its the worse surviving tool you might use to kill a walker.
How should clem be if she go with kenny or jane
Clem of jane:
Clem of kenny
Any way if there is something i can say its all telltale mistake for her bad writing i mean what the use of five ending if they have no imapact on the main character.
that BS telltale and you know it.
They wouldn't have escaped from Howe's, and if they did, Kenny would have died at the shootout.
Wouldn't it? I mean, Jane's existence doesn't affect Arvo coming to the observation deck to hide the meds. At best, there would be no option to rob Arvo, but his group would still be notified of our existence and they would've come after us as in the original.
Only if someone actively confronts him. Remember that Clementine only got caught cause she picked the cannon as a hiding spot while Jane picked the corner(and somehow avoided detection with despite looking like a butch Naruto),so she might not have been seen had she picked that instead. Even then, its very likely the same circumstances would've been avoided for the most part had Luke, Mike, or even Sarah had tagged along. Also, Arvo didn't seem recognize Kenny or Rebecca for some reason, so he might not have known about the group's existence without meeting Clementine.
You say that like that'd a bad thing
Same! Does anything matter Anymore?!
Yeah that's pretty much my thought as well.
"Only the reaper wins in the end."
Pretty much how I felt after Sarah
Clem would have been peachy keen without Jane's influence. These are the "lessons" that Jane taught Clem, based on the story generator:
Wow, what absolutely pessimistic "lessons". I'm pretty sure that this is the opposite of how we tried to raise Clementine throughout season 1 as Lee. Lee did not want to raise a selfish, distrusting asshole that cared about nothing except drawing her next breath. Meanwhile Kenny taught Clem about honesty, determination, and family. Luke taught her compassion, cooperation, and trust.
Along with Jane's suicide, Telltale practically spelled it out for us that Jane was a poor mentor and guardian. Oh, and Clem already knew the knee trick lol.
And it's not even rocket science, just something that comes naturally in terms of general character development.
I agree, Jane was an important person to have in the group but she's not who I want Clementine to be.
. @TWDazehnuu
I highly doubt the group would send the 11-year-old to check the observation deck by herself. I believe she would be sent there with Luke, maybe someone else, but alone? I don't believe it.
Not to mention that if Clem really went alone the whole group would've died since, unlike Jane/Luke (and Lee too!), Clem doesn't know how to pick a lock.
Even if Clem was somehow sent alone to check the observation deck, and the group somehow survived Rebecca's labor without shelter, the Russian group surely would still come after Clem. I can't see what's the difference between knowing about Clem's existence and knowing about Clem's and Jane's existence.
nevertheless, if you find an 11-year-old all by herself, I think Arvo would assume that she was with other people, no?
Ok, maybe it was my wording. Arvo might not have been able to tell Clem had a group, sure, fine, even though he probably would have assumed it, but knowing about one person only or knowing about a whole group would not have made the ambush not happen.
Instead of knowing about Clem and Jane they would instead only know of Clem, which makes no difference. In hindsight, in the original, he doesn't even know about the "group". He only knows about Clem and Jane and that's enough to make the ambush happen.
You can not rob Arvo though and they still come after you. The Russian group (more specifically Buricko and Vitali (and Natasha?)) comes after us to steal from us, not "revenge". You can tell as much when they decide to outright ambush us instead of simply asking for the pistol/meds back, like a group of good people would.
I believe their motivation was to get supplies from us, because they are bandits.
. @DabigRG
Again, are we assuming Luke just sends the eleven-year-old to scavenge on her own? ^~^ I firmly believe that someone else would've gone with her, probably Luke who would probably try to reason/talk with Arvo.
Yeah, I didn't express myself very well. What I meant is, the Russian group would still know of Clem's existence and gone after her.
Uh, hi. So... I'm not sure if you tagged me to answer to this but... I will anyway.
And let's not forget, all this, in the timespan of 2 days, which is pretty damn much.
We can also assume that Jane taught Clem to drive during their time at Howe's and how to tend to the greenhouse.
On top of all that she also generally gives good advice. She is the one who thinks of the plan of going back to Howe's, which, should you chose to pursue, proves to be a success and a great idea.
Prior to her return in No Going Back? A big, big maybe on that, but in No Going Back definitely no.
When she came back she showed to have realized that her way of living wasn't that good. She showed to want to stick with our group, she even says it "I want to make this work". She even believes at first that Kenny can be "brought back". Can you look at Jane joking around with the others near the campfire and tell me that she wasn't being as "human" as anyone of them? Or in the moments when she had playful banter with Clem? Or when holding the baby? Jane had found a new purpose, a new way of life when she decides to come back to our group once she hears the gunshots. She wanted the group to work and she intended to stick with us, that, of course, until Kenny happened and the group fell apart and so did Jane's new objective.
. @Yellowsno
Something I believe most people are missing is that Clem picked up Jane's bad traits, sure, she is antisocial, distrusting and quick to judge (though that can be easily associated with the constant loss of people since the apocalypse began and the isolation and frustration of having to deal with a baby on her own for years.)
But if you look closely with the eyes of the other side, you'll also see a frustrating amount of Kenny in her, more specifically, her temper and lack of control over her emotions. Things such as "Fuck you Conrad!" or "If you wanna shoot me, just shoot me!" or "I'm old enough to put a bullet in you!" are things that my loyal to Jane Clementine would never say, yet you can clearly see where she got that temperament from: Kenny.
So, the way I see it, S3 Clem has picked up both Jane's and Kenny's major flaws. It is not one-sided.
Aw, but don'cha know? She's a very valuable little girl.
True enough.
That'd be really dickish if they did that, though. I mean, yeah, while what little we see of them shows that they're "nawt nice peep-ple" and even Nick was smart enough to realize Clementine couldn't be in the Cabin area on her own, I just don't see them immediately going "Oh, a little girl, huh? Time to ride that hog!"
I think that Clem would still be the loner survivor that stays away from groups because the stay away from groups thing came from Christa. And the kick the leg technique is learned regardless whether or not you use it. So, essentially Ill just be a Clem that met one less person.
I did. I just didn't know how to do that singsongy thing without losing the link.
Admittedly, I recently realized that was a major contribution to why she was such a huge problem with the last episode and why I couldn't help but start outright hating her.
I think Jane did an impact on Clem, too. Since Clem and her friends only made it out of Carver's from Jane's idea of covering yourself in walker blood to make them not know they don't know who you are in their blood. And we see Clem using these new skills from Jane in S3: ANF when she first meets Javier and handcuffs him. So she may not have survived S2 without Jane.
I don't really think she picked that up from Kenny, but that's an interesting way to look at it. Clementine is literally the embodiment of Jane's flaws, and that's because they both came from similar situations. I think we can agree on one thing though, the fact that Clementine is nothing like the way we raised her is just shitty.
That sounds like something Alpha would say from the comics.
Well, that and the fact that Jane was apparently meant to be a dark future version of Clementine.
Jane was changing for the better, that's why I said the way she was living. She would have changed had Luke survived, and that's what killed the group, not Kenny. Luke helped keep everyone together, and without him Kenny had another reason (at least in his mind) to hate Arvo.
Why though? Jane trusted absolutely no one, killed callously, and I would make a bet Arvo wasn't the first person she robbed out of necessity. After Jaime died she put surviving first, above all else, but in doing so she lost touch with her human side.
Wasn't she worried about running out of the food they had? I think with only the two of them they had a hard time supporting themselves.
What Jane taught her definitely helped Clementine but I don't think it was life or death advice. We don't know what Clementine has been through though so it could've saved her. I need to see more before I can one hundred percent say anything one way or another.
Personally i feel ShitTale made Clem to be the way she has been in S3 just the way "they" want her to be. No influence from Kenny or Jane and they obviously have cast Lee out of her mind. Telltale don't give a shit about fans and continuity.
But good post, i see what you are saying anyway