Clem and Javier = Disappointment
Am I the only one disappointed with the way Clem's and Javier's relationship is turning out? I thought the main focus would be how these two would go from thinking the other one is an asshole and would leave the other behind the first chance they get, to genuinely caring for each other's safety through gradual bonding and having each other's back which in turn, would build trust between the two. To the point where they'll risk each other's life for the other. I know that Clementine has built up walls against people to prevent herself from ever having to go through the pain of losing someone else and I think AJ was the final nail in the coffin.
She tries to act detached and pretends that she doesn't care about people, but in reality... she's broken. Broken by all people she let into her life and how they were each ripped away from her, one by one. She believes that everyone she loves will die because of her so what's the point in even caring about people if it'll only lead into more inevitable pain? However, I really believed that Javier would be the exception. I hoped he'd be the one that Clementine would finally lower her walls for slowly and show her vulnerable side to. Letting him in unknowingly to point where she doesn't even realize just how important he is to her until either something almost happens to him or he goes missing which leads her to breaking down into tears in front of Javier and telling him that she can't allow herself to care for him because then he'll leave her by herself just like everyone else she loved did. And in the end, he consoles her and possibly shows her that she can allow herself to let people in and care for them. And he won't leave her no matter what.
I absolutely adored the moments when Javier would say something genuinely sweet to Clem and her face would light up with a smile even if it's for a second, but then she would catch herself and try to play it off by saying something cold like "this doesn't make us friends or anything." It added a certain depth to her character and showed that she may have complex emotions towards Javier. Watching her struggle to keep her walls up at all times since she's only human, but her trying anyways definitely made me feel horrible for Clem. It's the moments where she smiles that we can almost see reminisce of the old Season 1 Clem that we all knew and loved, before she remembers the grief and tragedy. So much potential...wasted. We hardly see Clem this season and instead we get this whole New Frontier storyline that honestly nobody asked for. Unfortunately the villain also leaves much to be desired for, Joan is quite the lame, predictable, and cliche villain. I didn't expect Javier to be the new "Lee" or anything like that, but I did expect him to be the one to teach Clem that survival isn't the only important thing and what's the point in surviving when you're alone and empty?
Comments
Might wanna change the title to be a lil more specific. Also maybe shorten it a bit so it doesn't feel like im reading a book. Anyways I wholeheartedly agree and its such a shame that it feels like they're using Clementine as an excuse for people to buy the game but then they have her story have nothing to do with Javi's. So lame.
The first time I heard we're gonna play as a new character alongside Clem I thought to myself "Huh what a cool idea to interact with her" and I thought she will turn from a stranger to our sidekick, meaning she would be there with us for a good portion, if not all, of the game's story. I thought we're gonna build a relationship with her until the point when we risk our life for her and she does the same (I even thought the ending will be Javi sacrificing for her or vice versa)
I got so excited when I saw the teaser thinking "ok we're gonna play as a new character that's pretty cool huh, Clem is surely gonna be an important character since Job said she and Javi have a common enemy, we're gonna tear shit apart, fighting alongside her to reach this enemy" but I guess it didn't turn out that way.
I'm disappointed as well, it could have been an interesting game
What's unfortunate is that this could have been a good way to expand Clementine's character more while changing it up just enough so it doesn't become stale. It's difficult for Clem to receive any character development when you play as her since they have to cater to your choices and not to her character, but with her not being playable I thought this would've been the perfect way to add more layers to an already amazing character.
Javier can side with Conrad over Clem in Ep2 yet if you do this, Clem still treats Javier exactly the same way despite seemingly being pissed off with him at the end of the previous episode. Telltale just forget or are just too lazy to show differences in their games now. What happened to Kenny and Lilly having a different relationship with Lee depending on choices in season 1? Or the way Vernon treats you depending how you treat him? Why couldn't Telltale have Clem even mention that she still felt annoyed with Javier for letting Clem be taken hostage by Conrad? They could have had Conrad or someone else save Javier from the walkers with the baseball bat but no matter what she still treats him the same way, they can even hug! It's like Telltale don't give a shit and just put the choices out there now for something to do. Our choices don't ever feel like they matter anymore.
Honestly, what you described would have been such a great game... I really hope that in the next 2 episodes the game follows such a track.
It will just make the game so much more emotional and give us all what we want: character depth that will act as a medium for us to connect with the characters. If they did this, even those who may have a dislike for Javi might subconciously change their mind about him when they witness to what extent Javi would go out to protect and care for Clem, similarly our admiration for Clem would strengthen when we see her 'smile' more towards Javi (as you suggested) and slowly opening up to him (note that the smiling is simply a generic example I just reused from your own examples. Clem could show her reciprocated affection in other forms too).
I don't know if you can relate, but for me that hug scene in Episode 3 was one of my favourite moments as it allowed us to show her (as Javi) our affection towards her, and even though she did rather quickly back away I do hope that the choices we make that show fondness to her actually do have an impact and in the next 2 episodes manifests itself in the form of a Clem that has created a bond between Javi and herself.
Regardless, @JaydenAceRider , I found your points to be very effective and do wish the game was structured in the way you have proposed. I will still remain hopeful for the next 2 episodes, though.
It would have been really interesting if your relationship with Clem is determinant. Like by the end she can either absolutely love you or downright hate you. Strange how whether you treated her like your own child or just treated her like trash, she always responds the same way to Javier.
That's where Telltale lied to us though! They said our season 2 end choices would determine Clem's personality in this Season and yet she is the same in every single scenario! The S2 endings meant nothing. I just don't get why Telltale have to lie? They think we won't remember their words?
(?)dan290786 will remember that.
Is it sad that I'm actually caring about other characters now? Believe it or not, I was almost more interested with Javier, David, Tripp, and Jesus over Clementine; though I did give a squel when she came back.
Honestly... I enjoy her place in the game, she is practically immortal, but she's not the only one getting recognition, which I feel like a majority of the people want.
Yeah I can get what you mean with Clementine and Javier. I've been a little disappointment by that too, especially when before the game came out they said something about the dynamic between those two being special. I'm really enjoying the character building with the cast and all the stuff with Javi's family, but I'm kinda bummed out Clementine isn't around more and doesn't feel as important as she should be.
And if that dynamic is supposed to be special, I'm not feeling it that strongly yet, at least not in a Lee Clementine way. I mean yeah there are a couple of nice character moments [not to mention that hug, oh god the hug!] If I remember right, they said Javi would need Clem, but we've not yet hit a point in his character where he's a broken man and needs snapping out of it. So is Clem stepping in for Mariana as the niece? Because if anything by the end of the season, I get the sense Clementine is going to leave if she's not helped pulled out from her 'I won't stick with groups, and can't trust/lose people again' mindset.
God dammit!
ADOPT HER JAVI!
MAN UP AND BE A DADDY FOR THE STRAY ORPHAN GIRL!
I think that it's quite possible that this will be the outcome of ANF.
What I noticed is that even if you choose the more negative responses towards Clem, in some cases, there were moments when you could only act in a certain way towards her. Like during her flashback with AJ in Ep. 3, if I recall corrently your only option is to try and console her. And when you meet David in the warehouse, Javi is quite visibly pissed at him for what he did to Clementine.
So in other words, I believe no matter what, he has a certain amount of sympathy for Clementine. Of course if you pick the positive choice when interacting with her, it's even more obvious.
Again, those are my observations, I could be wrong.
What I found odd is that even if you betray Clem and Javi basically says that she's not family so they'll use her as a bargaining chip as gunpoint, Clem still acts the same around you and even allows you to hug her. That seems quite out of character for her and I feel that's only the case because we're the main character and not because we actually bonded with her.
I believe the problem is that they're trying to do too many things at the same time with such a short time. Unlike Season 2 & 3, Season 1 knew the perfect balance between character interaction, solving puzzles, decent amount of hubs, and the relatability of normal people just trying to survive in any way they can. It also doesn't help that just one episode in Season 1 was longer than two episodes combined in Season 3. That's not enough time to develop characters.
Season 1 had such a simple concept and I believe that's what made it so effective. This season is about a corrupt settlement is attacking peaceful communities so we must put a stop to their destruction by working together with our brother who we thought was dead for years and was actually the leader of this settlement, but we find out he didn't know about their amoral ways so together we must stop their reign of terror once and for all. Oh but don't forget the family drama of the forced romance we have with his wife which will, in all likelihood, lead to conflict with our brother down the road after we defeat the New Frontier. The story is quite predictable and honestly going all over the place with what it wants and trying too hard to be over the top with it's drama that they forgot what made Season 1 so great. The characters.
I don't feel like Javi taking on Clem in any sort of parental or guide role fits well in the current narrative. The writers have created a version of Clem that is much more savvy and advanced in dealing with walkers/combat than Javier. She's rescued him an embarrassing amount of times this Season. ( I thought that would change when Javi was given a bat to work with.. and she has to save him with it. )
As it stands, I'm not even seeing a good scenario where Clem remains in the story as she said once she had gotten AJ she was taking off. Taking a toddler into combat to save Javi yet again would be a terrible plan, and so would leaving him somewhere in the hopes she'd survive against a complex of people with weapons. With the direction the story has taken, I feel it's a disservice to all characters involved to have Clem shoehorned into it. For me, it makes Javi look weak and incapable - which he shouldn't be. He'd managed to protect and keep his family alive for four years until now. Rick Grimes, Michonne, Daryl... heck all of the 'badasses' of TWD lost more in four years. It's also a disservice to Clem to only have five minutes per episode of development after four years of surviving raising a baby.
Clem and Javi's relationship summarized
Javi: Hey CLEM!!!! Let me do literally anything to ensure your survival.... because reasons
Clem: K cool I'm leaving now (returns half an episode later)
Javi: CLEM!!!!!! YOU'RE BACK HOLY FUCK let me do literally anything to ensure your survival
Clem: Kk thx I'm leaving again
Rinse and repeat for 4.5 episodes.
This is what I dislike about this season, the Conrad choice especially, Clementine went from hating Javi, to not caring in less than 5 minutes, what happened to the season 1 relationships, where Kenny could hate you, or love you, and he would react differently to what you had to say, in A New Frontier, when the game says ?Someone will remember that, they might mention it in ONE line down the line, but it doesnt really affect their disposition.
I really hope Clementine brings up the Conrad choice again, or that it determines her allegiance towards Javi at the end of the game, since right now, shooting Conrad is 100% negative, and there should never be a "right" choice IMO, there should always be consequences on both sides of the choice
I really hope that the finale will somehow incorporate some sort of system for Clementines disposition towards Javier, and make her decisions revolve around how you have been treating her, sort of like how they did at the end of season 1, for example, selling out Clementine to Conrad would be a big minus in having Clementines alliance, and not letting David in would count towards earning her trust/allegiance
At least, they absolutely HAVE to bring up the Conrad choice later, and make it have some consequence between Clem and Javi if you chose to sell out Clementine, since right now, there is no negatives in selling out Clem, and no positives towards Clementine if you shoot him
I think it would be a nice way to transition into season 4, Clementine is obviously way more experienced than Javi (since he has spent 4 years in a van), let Clementine take the wheels again in season 4, and let us teach Javi and (perhaps) Gabe how to survive proper, its almost embarassing how bad Javi is at times, and frankly its putting me off quite a bit, since oftentimes there are way better ways of dealing with situations than he does.
I would really like in future, some choices that involve how to deal with walker attacks, where you have to be smart, or your character could get hurt if you dont play it smart, (I remember in season 2 there was a choice between kicking a walker in the knee, or attacking its head, but that choice amounted to nothing, since apparently attacking the head or the knee (dont remember which), didnt amount to anything, and you had to choose the other
It's gotten to the point where it's beyond obvious telltale has really no interest in keeping clementine around yet they do to throw a bare bone to fans.
Clementine just doesn't fit in here. She would be better off if she never appeared, or had her own separate game.
Yup, Javiers story should have been a spin off and season 3 should have been an actual continuation of season 2, now we have to sit through this half assed shit that obviously has little to do with the prior seasons.
I see where you're coming from with your argument and have no objection against your points. I must agree that given the time of each episode, they may be trying to incorporate too much, 'tell' a very perplexing 'tale', if you will. I believe that had the episodes been lengthened by more hubs and interactions in this season reinforced with clear character development a lot of issues would have been fixed, giving Javi's story a good shot in the TellTale TWD series.
One 'issue' that I had with the choice of complying with Conrad / shooting him in Ep 2 is that I feel in the heat of the moment, I as Javi may have decided to comply with him with the intention of saving Clementine and Conrad as I understand Conrad may not be exactly himself. In other words, it may have been a desperate attempt at making a quick plan to get Clementine out of that situation, but once we actually got to Richmond, I'd do anything and everything to keep her safe as I truly care for her. I would have liked it if we could actually express our emotions and thoughts to Clementine, such as this one. So for example if we chose to go with Conrad - not saying I necessarily did, by the way - I'd like to later down the line (maybe using a hub as a medium) get to explain myself to Clem, so that she knows that I did that to save her and thought it was best at the heat of the moment. This is so that Clementine doesn't keep a grudge against me. Not that this matters so far as it seems that it hasn't had a vital difference in her interactions thus far. Implementing something like this further makes the story seem alive as we are able to have more life-like conversations with Clementine. Please highlight the word 'conversations'! So far, we have had ample time to speak to Clem, let alone get closer to her / give her the chance to 'lower her walls'; this may be one issue which I desperately hope Telltale will fix.
Ultimately, in my very honest opinion, ANF & Javi have so much potential that it would be sheer stupidity to let that go to waste - this in regards to how the story links with Clementine. I think that many people are concerned that Clementine is here only to serve the fans and has little to no impact, and with the evidence they bring they are quite justified to think that way. I really hope that Telltale will prove us all wrong and by the end of the season, we have a firm story with a fantastic ending which would hopefully be saved by the last 2 episodes. I just hope that Javi and Clementine will be able to 'bond' as you say, and give us moments where we can actually appreciate and sympathise with the one we've watched grow up, hopefully Clementine will also reciprocate that - that would be such a great game...
I hope someone read this novella of a comment haha.
Clem may end up getting dragged in the conflict in the end. From what we know so far she still has some friends in the ANF, but getting to them during what we could call a civil war would be difficult. So until things cool off, she will either have to wait it out or get involved to speed things up in order to find AJ faster. But taking into consideration just how important AJ is to her, I don't think she will wait things out.
Now we also know that Lingard took care of AJ, but if we choose to stay and help David and we bring Max along, he takes Joan's side, that too might pose a problem for Clem, since Joan's faction is not really that sympathetic towards her.
They could've made Javi's story instead of Michonne's, no harm done.
Well Javi too does rescue Clem during Ep. 1 when Eli gets pissed and tries to attack her. Also earlier at the gates when the walker grabs Clem. It's true that she rescues him but I don't think that means he is helpless or incapable. He handled Eli, Badger and from what I have seen is quite proficient in a firefight.
The way I see it, Javi relies on his strength more since he was also a professional baseball player while Clem relies more on what she learned along her journey from the people she met. She is generally quite resourceful, probably more so than Javi.
Now as for AJ, the plan is to get him and leave, but that's just the end goal, the path to that may prove to be full of obstacles. As I said in a comment in this thread, getting to AJ might drag her willingly or not in the upcoming civil war if we could call it that. We have to wait and see.
I do agree that we need more playtime as Clementine though.
For what it's worth, I actually really liked the implication that he had it under the control but she picked up the bat while he was distracted and stepped in anyway just in case. It allows the two to have each others' back and give Clementine a "cool" moment without necessarily dragging down another character to make it happen.
I really hated how Season 2 constantly did that with Kenny and Jane.
I agree that was annoying in Season Two with Kenny and Jane. What I keep hoping for is since Telltale has declared Javi the main character for this season, a better showcase of his skills. I'd like more opportunities for the Garcia family to shine, or at least one really good moment to point to and be able to say that must be the reason they managed to survive for four years as well off as we met them in Episode 1 and 2.
For that reason, I'm hoping that in the next episode we're given different avenues as to how the Garcia brothers escape. 1 - Gabe and Kate are responsible giving both characters screen time/character development and the fandom that's romancing Kate/supportive of Gabe's growth some exposure. 2 - The Garcia brothers save themselves, strengthening blood bonds and determinedly gain the assistance of the merc they spared and/or one or more of the other leaders. 3 - Clem saves the day.
It's reaching at best. Having diverging paths in more than a couple of dialogue changes isn't really something TellTale is known for providing, but not entirely unreasonable in that they all could merge to the same place at the end.
Ive heard alot of people say that they think Conrad should "redeem himself" to Clementine, or that Javi should be able to justify his actions, and I feel like its the wrong mindset, there is already literally no consequence to agreeing to Conrads plan, Clementine doesnt care after 5 minutes, in fact, so far, there is literally no negatives to agreeing to Conrads plan, Clementine is still buddy buddy with Javi, she still hugs Javi, she still saves Javi from the walkers, it just seems bad, I am sincerely hoping there will be some consequence down the line for agreeing with Conrad, such as Clementine having doubts about whether or not Javi is on her side, and depending on your choice she will either leave or stay, or that the finale is something like season 1, where the people supporting you in the fight for Richmond will be dependant on how you acted throughout the season.
I just feel like a choice shouldnt have an objectively "right" choice, which the Conrad choice has so far, one should be able to justify both choices with differing logic, but at the moment shooting Conrad or agreeing to his plan amounts to the same, Clementine still likes Javi, but now Conrad is alive, so its objectively better, which seems wrong for a game supposedly about choices, and "choices affect your story" as they like to write at the start of every game
It hasn't been played as much as I had hoped myself. You can see they're trying to build up their dynamic, their scenes together are good for the most part but then as they build it up-- it seems to drop moments later. Main problem is that Clem just sorta comes and goes very often and there isn't many moments where they effect one another (the Conrad choice is one but the affects are barebones).
It's one of the weak points I have taken notice.
Agreed. And since they're nearing the finale anyway, they should go all out with the choices, perspectives, and the gameplay options.
I thought these 2 where guna be a team but turns out clem has to save Javi's ass every episode 3 times
._____________________________.
I forgot I was following this thread. Sorry to say but even after episode 4 its still a disappointment. Itd be better if Javi was gone all together.
It would be better if this "season" was made as a spin-off and Clementine was gone all together. I like Javier and this "somewhat bad?" story fits well with him. Clementine is the one who doesn't fit here.
And it would also be better, if we had an ACTUAL Clementine focused season 3. Without Javier and his family. Clementine and the Garcia family just doesn't fit well together. (Or it would have, but Telltale fucked up their synergy)
I think it's Javi's family that is fucking up the story since the story is basically pushing them on you while Clem gets 10 minutes of screentime and has been reduced to a love interest for Gabe. And if you don't approve of their relationship, Javi says that it's because of Clem that might be the bad influence, not Gabe.
You love cringy drama, huh? That sounds terrible, no offense.
Yes, Clem is broken and therefore keeps a distance between herself and other people now. But she already showed her vulnerable side and actually did let her guard down towards Javi.
Ah yes. This scene especially makes sense when you betray Clem and tell her she's nothing but a liar to you. It makes no sense why she would let Javi even touch her since even if you were nice to her, she still met you a couple of days ago max.
Don't blame the game for your stupid decisions. Why would anyone "betray" Clementine and call her "nothing but a liar"? Choices like these are only tokens in order to create the illusion of choice.
So? I've said it in a different topic already. The amount of time spent together IS NOT a valid measure of if a person is trustworthy, good, likable etc. or not.
One of my best friends became that close to me after only two school days, since the chemistry between us was instantly right. It's not impossible. And Javi is a good guy, why would you think a short time spent together would not be enough to form a bond with someone, especially when the time spent together was intense and you supported each other in a conflict about life and death?
In my play through I saved Conrad. When I selected the hug option, I thought I was going to get a violent response because I betrayed her. Like and slap and don't you touch me reaction.
So I'm stupid for wanting variety in my choices rather than for the same outcome to happen no matter how I treat a person? Sorry, but the only stupidity in this situation is you.
And meeting a friend in school and meeting a stranger in a zombie apocalypse are two COMPLETELY different things. Can't believe you think they can even be compared. Again, if my choices are "stupid" then why even have them as choices in the first place, huh?
good point
Conrad already apologised that timeline. So I assume Clem just understood the situation.