Season 3: What Went Wrong?
Ok lads, consider this group therapy. In this thread we discuss what went wrong, how things could be improved, and why things are the way they are. Please be constructive in criticism.
So let's get started. What went wrong?
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It can't.
It's ruined beyond repair.
There isn't a season 3 anyway. Its just A New Frontier
Yeah, you might be right. While a part of me thinks maybe a Season 4 could redeem this one, I don't think we'll be seeing another season after this.
Oh there will be another season.
It'll just be pointless, that's all.
Yeah I know. I call it season 3 although it is more of a soft reboot of the series. That's probably my biggest issue with the game.
Before release I was thinking "i don't care what they call it, Its season 3"
After release "this is NOT season 3"
Gabe.
You think? I mean I'd believe it but the fans have been just so disappointed by this season that it seems weird to try and force these characters down are throats for another season.
Ah yes...has there been a more disliked character in a telltale game?
That didn't stop them making this.
Besides, they don't care what we want anymore.
I mean after countless of topics about criticism of S2, didn't affect the company at all.
Lack of character development, lack of HUB-areas, story is very rushed, ANF is forcing us to care about specific characters before actually giving us some development about them, the story is full of plot holes and is badly written in general. Those are the main issues in ANF in my opinion.
As for how it could have been fixed, it's pretty simple. The story should go forward in a more slowed pace. We would have had more time for character development and area exploration and other stuff that contributes to the story. Now it feels like it's super rushed. And if it's rushed, there's little time for the things I mentioned earlier. Also, the infamous plot holes of ANF could have been filled.
We don't have those "slow" moments in ANF like we had in Season 1 (for example: Greene Farm, Drugstore, Motel, Train, Mansion, Crawford). But in ANF, there's pretty much none. And if there were, we weren't still given enough time to actually explore places like Prescott, Richmond, Quarantine Cell, Warehouse near Richmond and Eleanor's "apartment". There were many opportunities to just "stall" the game and explore the area and character relationships instead of going full speed action QTE shenanigans mode all the time.
Those are my thoughts. I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but it is what it is.
TLDR: Story is too rushed, could have been fixed with just slowing the pace down a little.
You pretty much nailed it right on the head there.
By the way, is that a Nightingale avatar you've got there by any chance?
1. The lazy deaths of Jane and Kenny
I get that Telltale didn't want to get them involved with the current story.. but come on. Every single person here could come up with a better solution to (temporarely) keep them away from the current season without killing or giving them the "Christa-treatment".
The important message is.. please don't throw your characters away like that, Telltale.
People will stop caring about characters and their bonds with each other if they all die or disappear at the beginning of the next season anyway. Omid, Christa, Jane, Kenny. The aftermath is already noticeable, just look at how many people do not care about ANF-characters at all. I have a hard time with that myself. Even though I like Javi, Kate and Ava, their deaths would never pierce my heart as much as Lee and Kenny's deaths did. Ava, one of the best characters this season.. her death had no impact on me, which is sad to admit. Telltale can't expect us to care if their imminent deaths are already sealed from the beginning.
2. The new engine/artwork
Sure, it does have it's benefits, but has been very lacking several times as well. They should've kept the S1/2 art and polish the textures even more instead.
3. Lack of explorable hubs
Tons of people were and still are complaining about the "short" episodes and overall lack of hubs to explore. These hubs extended the length of episodes, added more gameplay and provided more, optional dialoge.. which all in all added to the authenticity of the story, the characters and the game-world itself.
Remove all hubs from the two previous games and the episodes would have the same length as in S3/A New Frontier. Adding such hubs would make everyone happy and really isn't too much to ask for.
I personally think that the pacing is the biggest problem (and the episodes length).
I mean, there are no breaks, no small moments of breather, nah just teleport to the same location in one episode, who cares...
Oh yes. Nightingales for life.
Uh, Larry.
Everything.
I mean S2 was flawed yes. But it was no ANF. It still had a lot of the tone and writing style of season 1. ANF feels like completely different game which is why it's so infuriating.
Not after Episode Four, I don't think.
Sarah, Duck, Ben, Kenny and Jane are runners-up, though.
The episode length is the most baffling thing to me. People complain about it endlessly yet the first two eps in the season were barely an hour long. Does Telltale really not care about the criticism they receive? I'm not saying the length needs to be long to be amazing (example TWAU ep 5), but this season is so rushed beyond belief. I don't care about literally any of these characters accept Clem and the only reason I care about her is because I've had two other seasons to bond with her.
S1 E5 was also "just" 1.5h as well. The mix does it. S1 ranged from 1.5-2.5h, depending on episode and sub-plot in any given episode.
ANF is pretty rushed indeed.
i don't think he's most hated in twd, but maybe one of them.
Season 2 happened the way it did. All the red flags were there folks.
Hell yeah!
The fandoms a pretty big problem but I doubt anyone would find that a satisfying answer despite how true it is.
Honestly I love this season, more so than even Season 1. Does that mean there's nothing wrong with it or no room for improvement? Of course not, there's always room to improve.
It doesn't bother me that much but since so many people want it I think more hubs where you can interact with all the characters is an obvious thing they need to implement more often.
The biggest thing is that determinant character deaths always tick people off, especially if they die in a way that feels like they only died because they're determinant. If they must die then at the very least their presence has to feel like it matters. Make the player feel rewarded for saving them. Don't fade into the background, give them involvement in the scenes. Conrad's a great example of this, not once has his presence ever felt like it doesn't matter, hell even his death has a pretty big impact in episode 4. Kenny and Jane are a bad example, while I'm not angry like so many others I can tell that they died because their determinant and they're involvement in the plot is very minimal, almost no relevance. Telltale needs to avoid handling determinant characters that way.
That's all I can think of right this second. Like I said I'm pretty happy with ANF.
For me, it's mainly the lack of consistent, adequately milked, and/or properly paced focus on the various character-driven subplots, with Clementine's grudge against the New Frontier being the closest to achieving that on some level. I plan on going more in detail about this (excluding the few instances where I already have of course) when From the Gallows is out and ANF is over.
The lazy inconsistency of certain characters and the lack of screentime and importance for some is another one.
I'm sorry but I just don't see how. The writing is worse than S1 and S2. Let me ask you this, do you genuinely care about any new characters this season? Why? I'm actually curious as all of the new people in the game are extremely boring to me.
I think ep 3 and 4 were very solid and definitely better than season 2 the problem is how godawful episode 2 is and episode 1 is not much better those were the episodes to do character development for Tripp and Eleanor as episode 3 and 4 are dominated by the Garcias. Unfortunately time was wasted on a comic character, the big dumb Conrad decision, and the big shock death in ep 1. That wasted time means even determinant ass Conrad is more of a complete character than Tripp and Eleanor.
With that said I much prefer something to end strong than start strong so I have high hopes for ep 5
Sounds like a joke.
I do genuinely care about the new characters. More so than Kenny or Clementine? I wouldn't go that far. I find the characters likeable and I'm invested in their struggle. I don't have any in depth answers for you, sorry.
Why attempt to belittle my opinion?
That you like ANF better than S1 and S2. I dunno. If you mean it, fine. I just don't see it.
You don't have to, nor do you even have to agree. But don't start labelling my honest opinions as bad jokes.
Honestly, Telltale has been making improvements on ANF since the release of Episodes 1/2 really hit some criticisms. They added hub areas to Ep 3/4. They extended a determinant character's role to such an extent that Conrad has become a fan favorite. It's still not what I would prefer it to be, but I can't say Telltale hasn't been addressing feedback.
Where it most strongly went wrong for me personally - the decision to play the game through flashbacks. This can be a good tool for certain things ( Kenny and Jane had a fantastic send off flashback that really made up for the one in Ep 1/2 ). What I'm addressing here is like playing a game out of sequence. This means certain events occur prior to any format of investment in characters. This more than anything I think ensured that a lot of the fanbase couldn't get behind characters they easily could have.
So what's the solution for this? - The best solution for another season would be to play events through in sequential order. If we're introduced to new survivors - it needs to be at the beginning of something, not the middle. It wouldn't even have to be at the start of the outbreak. We could be a group of survivors at the beginning of creating our own outpost or community.
Hub areas for those wanting more dialogue between characters - Telltale mostly created areas for us to explore, while smaller than we might've liked, it was provided.
An easy solution for this - I think the best bet would be the outpost scenario. It would give the writers an easy out to satisfy both sides of the player base that want that additional nuances, and those that would rather skip ahead to the action. I also think this could add some nice choices that we haven't experienced before - as in deciding where to use our resources to build or fortify. It allows for plenty of action possibilities on supply runs for food and medicine to introduce any plot elements or conflicts both internal and external.
My apologies.
True, that's because S2 continued S1's story... unlike "S3" who jumps the shark.
Don't you find that hypocritical?
It's okay for you to disregard constructive criticism of "the fandom", but you feel offended if someone can't take you seriously?
Especially, if you can't give any profound reason to back up your opinion of "ANF being the best game in TTG's TWD series with only little room to improve".
Okay, yes you make a good point and I don't mean to belittle anyone's opinions so I'm sorry if I've ever come across that way. What I said was mostly out of frustration with the way people here been acting. I mean go to the waiting thread and if anyone says anything remotely positive about ANF you get a passive-aggressive meme or someone tries to tell you that you're wrong. So again sorry if my frustration got the wrong message across.
Secondly I do not have to come up with a paragraph to make my opinion valid. What I believe is what I believe, I don't have to justify it. And those are improvements that I came up with on the top of my head. I'm certain there's lots of areas for Telltale to improve upon.
Alright, I see where you come from. I can only recommend you reading this. So, maybe you will reevaluate the way you look at word "opinion", because maybe your opinion is actually wrong. We have 3 other TWD games and one of the most successful comics other than ANF to compare it to and ANF is worse story wise. That's what most of the people care about and everyone is sad to admit it, but it's true. So, in order to improve it people are pointing out that it's bad and engage in discussions with those that think it's good in order to prove their point. If it weren't the case...I'm pretty sure someone would already make a thread about how good ANF's story is.
Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm...could you explain me how ANF is better than previous seasons based on those questions(just copy pasted some questions in order to critique novel and edited slightly for video game):
I just can't see a point of view where you can answer this questions and come to a conclusion that ANF is good at least on 1/3rd of it. I feel like I could write an 100+ page essay on how weak ANF's story is.