What makes a character or their actions unforgivable in your opinion?
This goes out to all lovers and haters of controversial characters. By what process or logic do you decide who gets crap-listed and who gets a pass? Let me put this is perspective.....
Ben = scared kid or insufferable nincompoop
Lilly = overzealous protector/distraught daughter or cold-blooded killer
Sarah = gentle soul or burden/liability
Bonnie = practical escapee or heartless deserter
Jane = level-headed survivalist or self-serving manipulator
Kenny = loyal father figure or controlling maniac
I'm not saying characters can't be both :P but ppl are usually biased negatively or positively toward them. What makes it or breaks it for you? If u use season 3 examples please put spoiler tags on ur comments. Thanks.
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The only time I find myself not being able to forgive a character is if they're truly evil or have sinister intentions like The Stranger or Carver. Otherwise, I don't get angry at all or get over it pretty quickly.
Is this for base-breaking characters specifically or is this a general hard to forgive thing?
It's funny, but usually after a bit of time has passed, I don't find any of these characters as completely irredeemable. Sure, some of their actions can be pretty messed up, but there's almost always a side to them that's still human. That's one of the great things about the walking dead - watching people's morals break down as they're forced to adapt to an apocalyptic world, but still knowing that deep down there's a part of them that wants to do good by the people they care about.
I think one of the best examples would be Lilly. A lot of people initially called her a cold, heartless bitch, particularly after shooting Carley/Doug. But if you really dig deeper and try to figure out all of the shit that lead her up to this point, I actually find her to be one of the most tragic characters of season one. A lot of the motel group often mistook her cold nature as just her being an asshole, when in fact she could've been seen as the defacto leader up to a certain point. She sorted out the rations, got the adults on a regular firearms training schedule, tried to help keep order and safety around the motor inn, etc.
Was I pissed at first when she killed Carley the first time I went through the game? Yeah, and I figured a large portion of people were. But then, similar to my experience with Jane, I played through it some more times. And the more I went through it, the more sympathetic I became, up to the point where I immediately went back onto the RV, tried to talk to her and explain things, and even told her I'd get Clem and leave.
Point is, I can feel sympathy for pretty much anyone here, which, come to think of it, probably makes the emotional impact on me more complicated than it probably needs to be
Betrayal is the worst and hurts really deep. One must really elaborate their reasons to make it undetectable for me; it would be very hard to put trust (again) in someone disloyal or double-faced. I'm not saying it should be punished with death, but it surely does say something about a person.
That's why I had troubles with Ben, however he was very naive and easy to manipulate and I guess worth the second chance you could give him, especially because it pays off at the end. I've had the same dilemma with Stephanie (400 Days) or Mike and Bonnie; though it was such little time to judge them back when it happened, outta nowhere. Now I can't imagine meeting them back again, I wouldn't be able to be around those backstabbing egoists, and even though I understand their motives, I would never forgive them.
People I would never forgive are:
I usually do not forgive when someone screwed me over big time.
Betrayal usually does it for me, particularly nonsensical betrayl. Badly written characters also succeed in me not caring
I typically end up being very forgiving towards the characters in my playthrough even if I do feel initially hurt or betrayed by their actions. I couldn't bring myself to drop Ben in the bell tower even though I was furious at him over Carley's death, I didn't leave Lilly on the side of the road even though she had killed one of my favorite characters in cold blood, I didn't give up on Kenny even when he gave me every reason to do so in my season one playthrough. As Lee, Clem & Javier, I find it difficult giving up on people I've created a bond with in some way. I find myself in the long run attempting to extend compassion, love and understanding towards the people in my group rather than never ending hatred.
I'm a person who tends to hold grudges over long periods of time. People who stab me or others in the back would only be able to grant my will to reclaim the possession of my trust through apologizing in a wholeheartedly sincere, merciful and potent manner or a bold act to redeem themselves. Take Ben for example, I pulled him up because he knew and admitted himself as a dragging burden to the group and begged me to let him go for the sake of safety for the group rather than tugging at my sleeve and screaming for me to pull him back up. I thought it was pretty ballsy of him to let that off his chest.
My line will endure or end for someone depending on how they deal with the aftermath of betrayal.
Both. I'm gonna reignite the Kenny VS Jane war lol but it got me to wondering why players love certain characters and hate others. Like on what basis do you judge individual actions....especially when I can draw parallels between certain ones of the disputed characters.
When a character betrays you for no reason
If they kill a member of the group or a character i like.
Betrayal.
Oh, okay. I'll follow up with a seperate post when I get the chance.
Btw, you wouldn't happen to know @zombiebonnie, would you?
Nope.
Okay, just checking.
We're not supposed to discuss banned users.
Okay, here's a few characters that I'd call pretty reprehensible on one level or another:
"Jake" the Save Lots Bandit #1/Leader
"Bart" the Save Lots Bandit #3
Linda
Gary
Danny St. John
Oberson Crawford(which is his first name?)
Nate
Winston of the North Carolina Scavengers
William "Bill" Carver
Troy(originally at least)
Jane
Buricko(according to script)
Randall Monroe
Lieutenant Badger
Head of Diplomacy Joan(pending?)
I'm curious.....why Jane? and why not the St. John's?
Betrayal, hurting Clem.
There is no coming back from either of those in my mind.
This is exactly how I am. I forgive all others as I have been forgiven.
I listed Danny St. John.
Anyway, Jane is one of the most reprehensible characters I've seen, given her self-righteous air, fantastic racism, disregard for human life(including minors), and quite literally lethal hypocrisy in spite of how the narrative actually treats her. There's a reason those traits are often reserved for villainous characters.
I developed a hatred for Kenny over bad editing. In season one I was always there for him and his family but I made the choice of saving Doug which meant it was impossible to tell Kenny about being a murderer so he was left angry at me. As a result, when I asked for him to help find clementine and he said "no". I was done. Killed his ass in an instant at the end of season 2. Loved saying "Kenny was a monster" in the season 3 episode 4 Jane flashback.
You must've fucked up big time if he said No. Only that murder topic alone won't have him say no.
You need to reach a certain number of points, and if you don't, you'll have to convince him, if you have way too low points, he'll refuse you outright. But for that to happen you need to be against him at least 90% of the time.
First of all as Tobi said, you must have been against him 90% of the time and didn't convince him in Episode 4. Second, not telling Kenny about Lee's past is not the reason he doesn't determinantely go with you in Episode 4.
Shame you have a lot of hatred, as far as wanting to kill someone and can't show forgiveness for someone's bad actions even when said person redeems himself in the end.
Btw "Loved calling Kenny family in the season 3 episode 4 Kenny flashback"
Wow. Ok I thought Jane made some fair points but she was really aggressive, like too aggressive. And leaving Sarah was unconscionable even though she WAS a burden. Like I said I picked Kenny...probably for those reasons.
I chose Doug and Kenny went with me so I call BS on that...
Just curious, what major choices did you make regarding Kenny that made him say no (despite always being there for him)? If you were 100% by his side he should always be with you so I'm not sure why he didn't join your team.
Depends on what they do, their intention/mindset, and whether they can make up for their actions. If they accidentally kill someone and feel great remorse for it (Zachary in Michonne), I'll forgive them. If they kill people for no reason other than to show dominance (Carver), I won't ever forgive them. If they sell you out to a group that wants you dead (Eleanor) for their own safety, I most likely won't forgive them (unless Eleanor can somehow redeem herself next episode).
Basically as long as they admit their faults, don't flat out betray me, and can redeem themselves of their actions, then I will usually forgive them.
Well I can't remember if I had to convince him or not but I remember the first thing I chose was "fuck you" also I let lilly back in the RV and didn't drop Ben but that's just human empathy so Kenny can go die in a hole
Did you really think it was worth it when you could have easily said Clementine was Lee's family? What's the point of that option anyway? It's for scumbags only.
Well, scumbags or people who are just plain sick of putting up with Kenny's selfish bullshit.
Well, was it ever hard to choose "She is my family"?
No. It's just that my 2nd playthrough featured a more blunt but still caring Lee/Clementine who wasn't afraid to call people out on their shittiness or stupidity. And Kenny was definitely a right prick.
I think what makes characters irredeemable for me is being petty. The characters that come to mind immediately as irredeemable for me are Kenny (S1) and Eleanor (S3).
I didn't agree with Kenny on a lot of things, but we were still civil, and I trusted he'd help take care of Clementine, being a dad himself. Season 1 finale comes along and he won't come help me save Clem cause he's pissed at me.
Eleanor found out I killed Conrad, who had a gun to my nephew's head and immediately sells me out (as well as endangers Tripp) to be in some shitshow community. Just damn petty.
There might be others but I can't think of em.
She does that regardless though.
lol that makes it worse
More like confusing, even with the setup and foreshadowing.
Agreed. It really doesn't fit her personality, especially endangering Tripp. Clearly, she wasn't ready to be in a relationship with him again, but it was obvious she cared about him.
I get the whole surprise betrayal thing Telltale was trying to pull but nothing about her (to me at least) gives her off as that kind of character besides Clem not liking her.
Pretty much. The actual setup was supposed to be in her both scenes beforehand, which is really easy to overlook because there's more attention-grabbing going on in both(Tripp going on about marrying her; Gabe getting mad at Tripp, Kate, and determinately Javier) and even then, I think would've missed the actual implications because they're too busy being butthurt about her talking to Joan.
Do you have any thoughts about Lilly? Lol. What about Kenny?