Okay, so off the top of my head:
Lilly and/or Christa deserve some love given how notable/important they are. Lily in particular is one of those characters that left the story in a way that felt like a hook for another story and her continuity limbo status should be capitalized on as well.
Tavia is a weird one in that I feel like her character should've been developed more when it was relevant, but the lack of that and any real focus on her character, combined with her role in the story/backstory, makes her return a potentially interesting one.
Arvo was the character that I usually wanted to return the most since he falls into the same category as Lilly and his unique character presented a lot of possibilities that Season 2 ignored or outright wasted. However, I lost a significant amount of interest around the time ANF was being officially promoted.
Believe or not, I kinda don't want Gabe to return for too long for a number of reasons. So, of course, I have to fall back on the 2nd most wasted character of ANF--Kate. Granted, her involvement is more limited than Gabe's, but she suffered heavily from being neglected when it was pretty clear she was supposed to be more important. And while I really wish they had simply had Gabe disappear as well instead of the copout they pulled at the last minute, Kate definitely needs the screentime and focus more.
My top two are Christa and Lily. I'm 99% sure Christa will make an appearance because Telltale said they haven't forgotten about her.
Kenny too if you have the Wellington ending. Have him show up in the last episode but only if Clem doesn't decide to return to Richmond.
As for who I don't want to see, definitely Joan if she's alive. God, her character was so boring and terrible. I hope she isn't the main antagonist again.
I'm certain we'll see the Garcia's again since Telltale said they'll make an appearance in the final season. As for their role, they won't do anything major besides showing up in the last episode if Clem decides to go back to Richmond.
Season 1: Lilly (don't think I need to explain why)
400 Days: Nate (we seriously need him back. he has the potential to be one of the better antagonists in TWD)
Season 2: Christa (sigh, don't think I need to explain why)
Michonne: Pete (very unrealistic and very unlikely, but I'd love to see the "cooler" Pete back)
Season 3: Eleanor (would be interesting to see if Telltale actually manages to do something interesting with her, despite the fact that she was one of the most disappointing characters in ANF in my opinion)
Why?: These two are some of the very few characters from Season 1 that have not (determinantly or otherwise) crossed paths with Clementine and do not have a determinant status. If they were to run into Clementine in The Final Season it would both feel the most realistic out of all the characters to return from Season 1 since Telltale wouldn't have to pull another "small world" excuse due to them having no history with Clem, and also not being determinant would allow them to not have their characterization limited. On top of that I just find their personalities pretty compelling and I would love to see how the time gap has changed them since 400 days.
Season 2: Arvo
Why?: I found the interesting idea of a Russian group trying to survive in a zombie infested America kinda let down by No Going Back's quick disposal of all of Arvo's group except him. I would love to see how Arvo managed to survive after Season 2, hear why he ended up in America to begin with, and finally be able to tell him why Clem shot his sister.
Michonne: Paige
Why? I don't know, I just like Paige the most out of all the non determinant characters. I would choose Sam but sadly her determinant status means it's pretty unlikely to return or at the very least have some sort of impact on The Final Season's plot.
Why?: I found the interesting idea of a Russian group trying to survive in a zombie infested America kinda let down by No Going Back's quick disposal of all of Arvo's group except him. I would love to see how Arvo managed to survive after Season 2, hear why he ended up in America to begin with, and finally be able to tell him why Clem shot his sister.
Agreed. Though honestly, I'd think he'd have learned/realized that in the time he's been absent.
Season 1: Eddie and Nate
Why?: These two are some of the very few characters from Season 1 that have not (determinantly or otherwise) cro… moressed paths with Clementine and do not have a determinant status. If they were to run into Clementine in The Final Season it would both feel the most realistic out of all the characters to return from Season 1 since Telltale wouldn't have to pull another "small world" excuse due to them having no history with Clem, and also not being determinant would allow them to not have their characterization limited. On top of that I just find their personalities pretty compelling and I would love to see how the time gap has changed them since 400 days.
Season 2: Arvo
Why?: I found the interesting idea of a Russian group trying to survive in a zombie infested America kinda let down by No Going Back's quick disposal of all of Arvo's group except him. I would love to see how Arvo managed to survive after Season 2,… [view original content]
This thread doesn't actually specify whether or not flashbacks can be counted for "returning characters," so I'm going to have separate lists for this.
"definitely" alive/no flashbacks:
Season One: Lilly or Christa
400 Days (which people don't seem to count as part of the season): Eddie
Season Two: Arvo
Michonne: Paige
A New Frontier: Kate/Gabe
flashbacks:
Season One: Lee or Omid
400 Days: no-one worth flashbacking to alone
Season Two: Luke or Sarah (alternatively, anyone from the cabin group, ski lodge, or Carver)
"definitely" alive/no flashbacks:
Season One: Lilly or Christa
Season Two: Arvo
A New Frontier: Kate/Gabe
flashbacks:
400 Days: no-one worth flashbacking to alone
Season Two: Luke or Sarah (alternatively, anyone from the cabin group, ski lodge, or Carver)
A New Frontier: Ava
This thread doesn't actually specify whether or not flashbacks can be counted for "returning characters," so I'm going to have separate list… mores for this.
"definitely" alive/no flashbacks:
* Season One: Lilly or Christa
* 400 Days (which people don't seem to count as part of the season): Eddie
* Season Two: Arvo
* Michonne: Paige
* A New Frontier: Kate/Gabe
flashbacks:
* Season One: Lee or Omid
* 400 Days: no-one worth flashbacking to alone
* Season Two: Luke or Sarah (alternatively, anyone from the cabin group, ski lodge, or Carver)
* A New Frontier: Ava
I really don't understand what people saw in Lily. She was dangerously paranoid and unstable. She suspects someone in the group, pressures Ben into admitting it was him or giving up Carley. Carley stands up to Lily and... Lily shoots Carley... without any proof that it was even Carley. Was what Ben did cowardly and stupid? Sure. Should they have kicked him out? Maybe. But none of that justifies Lily shooting Carley.
Season 1: Lilly (don't think I need to explain why)
400 Days: Nate (we seriously need him back. he has the potential to be one of the bet… moreter antagonists in TWD)
Season 2: Christa (sigh, don't think I need to explain why)
Michonne: Pete (very unrealistic and very unlikely, but I'd love to see the "cooler" Pete back)
Season 3: Eleanor (would be interesting to see if Telltale actually manages to do something interesting with her, despite the fact that she was one of the most disappointing characters in ANF in my opinion)
It's not about what she did or her actions, it's about what she brings to the story as a character. The thread isn't titled "Which character did you like that you want to see return?"
I really don't understand what people saw in Lily. She was dangerously paranoid and unstable. She suspects someone in the group, pressures … moreBen into admitting it was him or giving up Carley. Carley stands up to Lily and... Lily shoots Carley... without any proof that it was even Carley. Was what Ben did cowardly and stupid? Sure. Should they have kicked him out? Maybe. But none of that justifies Lily shooting Carley.
It's because she was actually a very compassionate person who's main priority was looking out for the group's best interests despite Larry's habits and influence not earning her much love, before or after Kenny killed him. Could she be a bit too brusque at times? Yes, but she generally had a good point for her observations, never actually followed through on her harsher points, and even made accommodations when she could've just enforced her way. Ben was initially a demonstration of all of that, for better or worse.
Btw, It's actually worse in Doug's scenario. At least in Carley's case, she was legitimately on the right trail even if she handling it wrong due to her instability, paranoia, and anger about what's happened getting the best of her but Carley unfortunately got a little too brazen with her words at the wrong moment.
I really don't understand what people saw in Lily. She was dangerously paranoid and unstable. She suspects someone in the group, pressures … moreBen into admitting it was him or giving up Carley. Carley stands up to Lily and... Lily shoots Carley... without any proof that it was even Carley. Was what Ben did cowardly and stupid? Sure. Should they have kicked him out? Maybe. But none of that justifies Lily shooting Carley.
Okay, so off the top of my head:
Lilly and/or Christa deserve some love given how notable/important they are. Lily in particular is one of… more those characters that left the story in a way that felt like a hook for another story and her continuity limbo status should be capitalized on as well.
Tavia is a weird one in that I feel like her character should've been developed more when it was relevant, but the lack of that and any real focus on her character, combined with her role in the story/backstory, makes her return a potentially interesting one.
Arvo was the character that I usually wanted to return the most since he falls into the same category as Lilly and his unique character presented a lot of possibilities that Season 2 ignored or outright wasted. However, I lost a significant amount of interest around the time ANF was being officially promoted.
Believe or not, I kinda don't want Gabe to return for too long for a number of reas… [view original content]
It's not about what she did or her actions, it's about what she brings to the story as a character. The thread isn't titled "Which character did you like that you want to see return?"
It's because she was actually a very compassionate person who's main priority was looking out for the group's best interests despite Larry's… more habits and influence not earning her much love, before or after Kenny killed him. Could she be a bit too brusque at times? Yes, but she generally had a good point for her observations, never actually followed through on her harsher points, and even made accommodations when she could've just enforced her way. Ben was initially a demonstration of all of that, for better or worse.
Btw, It's actually worse in Doug's scenario. At least in Carley's case, she was legitimately on the right trail even if she handling it wrong due to her instability, paranoia, and anger about what's happened getting the best of her but Carley unfortunately got a little too brazen with her words at the wrong moment.
I honestly have a hard time legitimately caring at this point. And can you blame me?
Still, I suppose I will consider this query and try to respond later.
Edit: Lol, "Arlo" and "Happy ending."
400 days people can appear in season 2 so they would count for season 2. In the video I said they had to be alive. All the people you chose are dead I think.
Season 1: Kenny
Season 2: Jane
Season 3: Not sure... Edith I guess.
Ideally Kenny and Jane would have their own feature length games in… more an attempt to save the series.
Edit:
Are we including 400 days? If so then I would bring back Becca or Nate, preferably Becca as a rival to Clementine.
Okay, so off the top of my head:
Lilly and/or Christa deserve some love given how notable/important they are. Lily in particular is one of… more those characters that left the story in a way that felt like a hook for another story and her continuity limbo status should be capitalized on as well.
Tavia is a weird one in that I feel like her character should've been developed more when it was relevant, but the lack of that and any real focus on her character, combined with her role in the story/backstory, makes her return a potentially interesting one.
Arvo was the character that I usually wanted to return the most since he falls into the same category as Lilly and his unique character presented a lot of possibilities that Season 2 ignored or outright wasted. However, I lost a significant amount of interest around the time ANF was being officially promoted.
Believe or not, I kinda don't want Gabe to return for too long for a number of reas… [view original content]
My top two are Christa and Lily. I'm 99% sure Christa will make an appearance because Telltale said they haven't forgotten about her.
Ken… moreny too if you have the Wellington ending. Have him show up in the last episode but only if Clem doesn't decide to return to Richmond.
As for who I don't want to see, definitely Joan if she's alive. God, her character was so boring and terrible. I hope she isn't the main antagonist again.
I'm certain we'll see the Garcia's again since Telltale said they'll make an appearance in the final season. As for their role, they won't do anything major besides showing up in the last episode if Clem decides to go back to Richmond.
Season 1: Lilly (don't think I need to explain why)
400 Days: Nate (we seriously need him back. he has the potential to be one of the bet… moreter antagonists in TWD)
Season 2: Christa (sigh, don't think I need to explain why)
Michonne: Pete (very unrealistic and very unlikely, but I'd love to see the "cooler" Pete back)
Season 3: Eleanor (would be interesting to see if Telltale actually manages to do something interesting with her, despite the fact that she was one of the most disappointing characters in ANF in my opinion)
Yeah I picked Arvo too (I called him Arlo by mistake in the video). I think we need to bring back characters who were kind of unfinished to end their story in a sense.
Thank you for watching the video and for the comment.
Season 1: Eddie and Nate
Why?: These two are some of the very few characters from Season 1 that have not (determinantly or otherwise) cro… moressed paths with Clementine and do not have a determinant status. If they were to run into Clementine in The Final Season it would both feel the most realistic out of all the characters to return from Season 1 since Telltale wouldn't have to pull another "small world" excuse due to them having no history with Clem, and also not being determinant would allow them to not have their characterization limited. On top of that I just find their personalities pretty compelling and I would love to see how the time gap has changed them since 400 days.
Season 2: Arvo
Why?: I found the interesting idea of a Russian group trying to survive in a zombie infested America kinda let down by No Going Back's quick disposal of all of Arvo's group except him. I would love to see how Arvo managed to survive after Season 2,… [view original content]
This thread doesn't actually specify whether or not flashbacks can be counted for "returning characters," so I'm going to have separate list… mores for this.
"definitely" alive/no flashbacks:
* Season One: Lilly or Christa
* 400 Days (which people don't seem to count as part of the season): Eddie
* Season Two: Arvo
* Michonne: Paige
* A New Frontier: Kate/Gabe
flashbacks:
* Season One: Lee or Omid
* 400 Days: no-one worth flashbacking to alone
* Season Two: Luke or Sarah (alternatively, anyone from the cabin group, ski lodge, or Carver)
* A New Frontier: Ava
Yeah Joan was basically a female governor, but I definitely want to see Christa because I feel like her story is unfinished.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
Well he's a great character, even if you like him or dislike him. He's one of the most realistic and well written, as well as one of the most deep, complex and interesting. He deserves his own spin-off. I only wish we had that DLC about his Savannah escape with him as the playable character.
No offense since I don't actually disagree with you in areas, but Kenny's about as complex as an arithmetic problem. His character and motivation are relatively simple when you think about it and the "complexity" came from something several other characters were denied in part because of him: screentime, focus, and different plot elements centering around him to make it all feel fleshed out and what not. There's always characters to kowtow behind him(Katjaa, Sarita, eventually Rebecca), characters for him to engage in increasingly one-sided challenges(Lilly, Luke, Carlos for one weird minute), and characters who make sure he looks good in comparison(Larry, Carver, Jane). They always give him chances to try and win you back over, whether it be by getting emotional scenes or making sure the competition doesn't seem as good to him. And while all that might be perfectly fine storytelling methods at times, the sheer abundance of it concentrated into him and him alone gets very tiresome after a while and it doesn't help that Telltale obviously can't seem to let him go and do something different.
If people really like him, I'm more than fine with that--being happy is better than being frustrated all the time, afterll---, but I personally have gotten over-gorged with him.
He deserves his own spin-off. I only wish we had that DLC about his Savannah escape with him as the playable character.
If that happened, I'd rather play as Sarita, thank you. Learn something about her while experiencing their meeting and journey together.
Well he's a great character, even if you like him or dislike him. He's one of the most realistic and well written, as well as one of the mos… moret deep, complex and interesting. He deserves his own spin-off. I only wish we had that DLC about his Savannah escape with him as the playable character.
I'm with you Carver wasn't just some old villian remake. He had is own character which separated him from the villains from both the show and the comics, But with Joan it's like "Hmm we need a villain, hey the governor was good." "But we have him" "Oh right, okay we'll make a female version it'll be fine."
Joan was basically a female governor
Which is fucking dumb, by the way. I'm mostly going off of what I've been told, but at least make a new character if you really wanna do that shit.
Telltale's lack of writing ability these days in my opinion wouldn't have made a lot of difference had Kenny not returned in Season 2 anyway. Seriously! I honestly believe they wouldn't have developed characters any better as Season 3 demonstrated that their quality writing team has diminished
No offense since I don't actually disagree with you in areas, but Kenny's about as complex as an arithmetic problem. His character and motiv… moreation are relatively simple when you think about it and the "complexity" came from something several other characters were denied in part because of him: screentime, focus, and different plot elements centering around him to make it all feel fleshed out and what not. There's always characters to kowtow behind him(Katjaa, Sarita, eventually Rebecca), characters for him to engage in increasingly one-sided challenges(Lilly, Luke, Carlos for one weird minute), and characters who make sure he looks good in comparison(Larry, Carver, Jane). They always give him chances to try and win you back over, whether it be by getting emotional scenes or making sure the competition doesn't seem as good to him. And while all that might be perfectly fine storytelling methods at times, the sheer abundance of it concentrated i… [view original content]
I don't know about the first part, but what made it frustrating in Joan's case is that she had a much different, more morally ambiguous characterization initially and instead of taking full advantage of that for once, they just decided to dramatically shift it for the sake of it.
I'm with you Carver wasn't just some old villian remake. He had is own character which separated him from the villains from both the show a… morend the comics, But with Joan it's like "Hmm we need a villain, hey the governor was good." "But we have him" "Oh right, okay we'll make a female version it'll be fine."
Comments
I honestly have a hard time legitimately caring at this point. And can you blame me?
Still, I suppose I will consider this query and try to respond later.
Edit: Lol, "Arlo" and "Happy ending."
Season 1: Kenny
Season 2: Jane
Season 3: Not sure... Edith I guess.
Ideally Kenny and Jane would have their own feature length games in an attempt to save the series.
Edit:
Are we including 400 days? If so then I would bring back Becca or Nate, preferably Becca as a rival to Clementine.
Okay, so off the top of my head:
Lilly and/or Christa deserve some love given how notable/important they are. Lily in particular is one of those characters that left the story in a way that felt like a hook for another story and her continuity limbo status should be capitalized on as well.
Tavia is a weird one in that I feel like her character should've been developed more when it was relevant, but the lack of that and any real focus on her character, combined with her role in the story/backstory, makes her return a potentially interesting one.
Arvo was the character that I usually wanted to return the most since he falls into the same category as Lilly and his unique character presented a lot of possibilities that Season 2 ignored or outright wasted. However, I lost a significant amount of interest around the time ANF was being officially promoted.
Believe or not, I kinda don't want Gabe to return for too long for a number of reasons. So, of course, I have to fall back on the 2nd most wasted character of ANF--Kate. Granted, her involvement is more limited than Gabe's, but she suffered heavily from being neglected when it was pretty clear she was supposed to be more important. And while I really wish they had simply had Gabe disappear as well instead of the copout they pulled at the last minute, Kate definitely needs the screentime and focus more.
Also, no Becca, Jane, or especially Kenny.
No one other than Clementine and AJ. Let Telltale introduce new and interesting characters and let us get to know them and give them time to develop.
My top two are Christa and Lily. I'm 99% sure Christa will make an appearance because Telltale said they haven't forgotten about her.
Kenny too if you have the Wellington ending. Have him show up in the last episode but only if Clem doesn't decide to return to Richmond.
As for who I don't want to see, definitely Joan if she's alive. God, her character was so boring and terrible. I hope she isn't the main antagonist again.
I'm certain we'll see the Garcia's again since Telltale said they'll make an appearance in the final season. As for their role, they won't do anything major besides showing up in the last episode if Clem decides to go back to Richmond.
Lily, Luke, Tripp.
Except Lee? I would bring back Luke, definitely and nobody else
Lilly and Christa. I miss them.
Season 1: Lilly (don't think I need to explain why)
400 Days: Nate (we seriously need him back. he has the potential to be one of the better antagonists in TWD)
Season 2: Christa (sigh, don't think I need to explain why)
Michonne: Pete (very unrealistic and very unlikely, but I'd love to see the "cooler" Pete back)
Season 3: Eleanor (would be interesting to see if Telltale actually manages to do something interesting with her, despite the fact that she was one of the most disappointing characters in ANF in my opinion)
Season 1: Eddie and Nate
Why?: These two are some of the very few characters from Season 1 that have not (determinantly or otherwise) crossed paths with Clementine and do not have a determinant status. If they were to run into Clementine in The Final Season it would both feel the most realistic out of all the characters to return from Season 1 since Telltale wouldn't have to pull another "small world" excuse due to them having no history with Clem, and also not being determinant would allow them to not have their characterization limited. On top of that I just find their personalities pretty compelling and I would love to see how the time gap has changed them since 400 days.
Season 2: Arvo
Why?: I found the interesting idea of a Russian group trying to survive in a zombie infested America kinda let down by No Going Back's quick disposal of all of Arvo's group except him. I would love to see how Arvo managed to survive after Season 2, hear why he ended up in America to begin with, and finally be able to tell him why Clem shot his sister.
Michonne: Paige
Why? I don't know, I just like Paige the most out of all the non determinant characters. I would choose Sam but sadly her determinant status means it's pretty unlikely to return or at the very least have some sort of impact on The Final Season's plot.
Agreed. Though honestly, I'd think he'd have learned/realized that in the time he's been absent.
Season 1: Lilly
400 Days: Nate
Season 2: Bonnie
ANF: David
This thread doesn't actually specify whether or not flashbacks can be counted for "returning characters," so I'm going to have separate lists for this.
"definitely" alive/no flashbacks:
flashbacks:
Agreed.
I really don't understand what people saw in Lily. She was dangerously paranoid and unstable. She suspects someone in the group, pressures Ben into admitting it was him or giving up Carley. Carley stands up to Lily and... Lily shoots Carley... without any proof that it was even Carley. Was what Ben did cowardly and stupid? Sure. Should they have kicked him out? Maybe. But none of that justifies Lily shooting Carley.
It's not about what she did or her actions, it's about what she brings to the story as a character. The thread isn't titled "Which character did you like that you want to see return?"
It's because she was actually a very compassionate person who's main priority was looking out for the group's best interests despite Larry's habits and influence not earning her much love, before or after Kenny killed him. Could she be a bit too brusque at times? Yes, but she generally had a good point for her observations, never actually followed through on her harsher points, and even made accommodations when she could've just enforced her way. Ben was initially a demonstration of all of that, for better or worse.
Btw, It's actually worse in Doug's scenario. At least in Carley's case, she was legitimately on the right trail even if she handling it wrong due to her instability, paranoia, and anger about what's happened getting the best of her but Carley unfortunately got a little too brazen with her words at the wrong moment.
Why not Kenny? If you don't mind me asking.
Oh, all right.
I typically want to distance myself from unstable, paranoid people.
Yeah my bad I meant Arvo.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
400 days people can appear in season 2 so they would count for season 2. In the video I said they had to be alive. All the people you chose are dead I think.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
Yeah I picked Christa from Season 1 and Arvo from Season 2. I basically picked people who's stories were unfinished.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
I guess but I feel like in the finally we need some nostalgia.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
Yeah Joan was basically a female governor, but I definitely want to see Christa because I feel like her story is unfinished.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
I said they couldn't be dead in the video.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
I said they couldn't be dead in the video. From those who lived.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
Yeah me too.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
Good choices, Yeah Eleanor was disappointing.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
Yeah I picked Arvo too (I called him Arlo by mistake in the video). I think we need to bring back characters who were kind of unfinished to end their story in a sense.
Thank you for watching the video and for the comment.
God bless you.
Good choices.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
Good choices.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
Yeah I want Arvo too, and Christa because I feel like both have unfinished stories.
Thank you for the comment.
God bless you.
Because he's had waaay more than his fair share of love in-universe and we really don't need much any more of that overexposed Creator's Pet.
Which is fucking dumb, by the way. I'm mostly going off of what I've been told, but at least make a new character if you really wanna do that shit.
Well he's a great character, even if you like him or dislike him. He's one of the most realistic and well written, as well as one of the most deep, complex and interesting. He deserves his own spin-off. I only wish we had that DLC about his Savannah escape with him as the playable character.
No offense since I don't actually disagree with you in areas, but Kenny's about as complex as an arithmetic problem. His character and motivation are relatively simple when you think about it and the "complexity" came from something several other characters were denied in part because of him: screentime, focus, and different plot elements centering around him to make it all feel fleshed out and what not. There's always characters to kowtow behind him(Katjaa, Sarita, eventually Rebecca), characters for him to engage in increasingly one-sided challenges(Lilly, Luke, Carlos for one weird minute), and characters who make sure he looks good in comparison(Larry, Carver, Jane). They always give him chances to try and win you back over, whether it be by getting emotional scenes or making sure the competition doesn't seem as good to him. And while all that might be perfectly fine storytelling methods at times, the sheer abundance of it concentrated into him and him alone gets very tiresome after a while and it doesn't help that Telltale obviously can't seem to let him go and do something different.
If people really like him, I'm more than fine with that--being happy is better than being frustrated all the time, afterll---, but I personally have gotten over-gorged with him.
If that happened, I'd rather play as Sarita, thank you. Learn something about her while experiencing their meeting and journey together.
I'm with you Carver wasn't just some old villian remake. He had is own character which separated him from the villains from both the show and the comics, But with Joan it's like "Hmm we need a villain, hey the governor was good." "But we have him" "Oh right, okay we'll make a female version it'll be fine."
DabigRG
Telltale's lack of writing ability these days in my opinion wouldn't have made a lot of difference had Kenny not returned in Season 2 anyway. Seriously! I honestly believe they wouldn't have developed characters any better as Season 3 demonstrated that their quality writing team has diminished
I don't know about the first part, but what made it frustrating in Joan's case is that she had a much different, more morally ambiguous characterization initially and instead of taking full advantage of that for once, they just decided to dramatically shift it for the sake of it.