Just curious: why is S2 regarded as better than ANF?
I personally think they're in par with each other for different reasons, but I've seen more people say Season Two is better than New Frontier, so, uh, yeah. The discussion title.
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Because:
I think it's because, in addition to certain problems with these games getting worse with each installment, Season 2 featured a lot of things that people could mostly agree could've been good if they had been handled better and/or carried through all the way, even when they didn't necessarily like it. It's also worth noting that Season 2 had considerably more goodwill going into it and had more time to stew in people's perspectives than ANF does, which is an important factor as well.
For example, I'm pretty sure we can agree Luke, Rebecca, Sarah, and Jane had more energy, possibilities, and/or stronger followings behind them than Kate, David, Tripp, and Gabe. Yes, there are always room for exceptions to any rule and there are indeed dissenters and mediators(right here) who can make conflicting/compromising cases, but that's just what it comes down to.
Eeeh...debatable.
I agree with everything else, though.
Carver, Troy and Arvo are much better than Joan. Joan is easily one of the worst and most cliched villains ever.
Dont forget Jane
Joan was fine enough until the rewrites--then she became pretty damn hamfisted, not to mention inconsistent. Carver was pastiche on the first impression and appropriately flopped when the so-called "mystique" around his character wasn't delivered on, not that it would've helped that much anyway.
Troy is...okay, I guess. Not on any of their levels story-wise, but that's fine.
I will say that I do like Arvo more, but then again I'm biased. Also, what I said below.
Yeah, she made me hate her much more than Joan did.
Well, Season 2 felt like a continuation while ANF felt like a whole new story.
The first two episodes of S2 were A LOT better than any ANF episode.
Main focus was on Clem and Kenny who were from S1.
S1 choices were remembered in S2, unlike ANF where it seemed like S1 never even existed.
More memorable characters (Cabin Group > Garcia/Prescott group)
Relied more on group drama and internal conflict rather than action like a movie.
Characters were more developed and realistic than ANF.
That wasn't intentional, mind you.
Season 2 has a lot of problems on it's own, but when compared to ANF, it is superior in many different ways:
You play as Clem, a character from a previous game. Playing as Clem is a logical continuation of the story. Clementine in ANF brings no value to the story, she is just there for fan service. And since she is an NPC now, she often may act OOC, inconsistent with your Clementine from Season 2.
The Episodes are longer. They are not long enough, but at least they are relatively long. ANF Episodes are jokingly short.
I actually find it worse... marginally.
The pacing was abysmal and not one single piece of information was learned throughout Season 2, nothing pertinent anyway. Season 2 starts with Clem alone in the woods or with one person and ends with her alone in the woods or with one person.
Beyond that, although the character interactions were arguably worse in ANF, nothing genuine came from interacting with the stupid, marginally-above-the-mentally-retarded-IQ-level characters S2 constantly slung at you throughout 7 hours of total game time before giggling and giving you multiple shitty endings.
It was glib, depressing, uninteresting, unpleasant, boring, and an overall inane fare of sloppy writing, pacing, and structure.
Uh, yeah, no, not really.
Eh...you can go either with this, honestly. Hell, you can play Lee as a scumbag but he'll still ultimately earn the group's loyalty and die having freed Clementine and taught her how to survive.
When exactly was this?
And this is one of the exact reasons I haven't bothered to fully complete the episode myself and don't really care for Clementine this time around since there's a chance she'll fuck me over.
Okay, can I say I don't really get this complaint? Each of their motivations made sense for what was established their characters and/or was set up beforehand.
Sure, David calling it quits on his own fucking plan could've been seguewayed into better and Gabe's determinant outburst in the apartment in particular really was severely fucked over by the bafflingly shitty story and gameplay integration, but they still count.
Clearly, you've never been mad at a family man then. That's very realistic and it's in character.
In fact, I would've been legitimately surprised if he just [non-determinately(?)] said "Fuck you, David!" and called it a game, whether I think it's the most appropriate course of action or not.
Really, the only thing ANF does better than S2, (and I would also say S1) is being much more merciful to determinant characters. Conrad is by far the best determinant character that Telltale has made for this series. Being able to be killed 3 different times, and as early as episode 2, to possibly surviving the whole game.
Well that and the characters are far nicer to and more understanding of each other.
Yeah, I showed no mercy to having Gabe dead.
I really don't like that that's a thing, personally.
I suppose. The first time playing though, I didn't really invest into anyone other than Javi, Clem, Mari, Tripp, & Eleanor. The latter two I stopped caring about after Gabe threw his little tantrum, over shooting Conrad.
I'll respect that.
Thanks, I guess.
I mean, I suppose you could argue that at least his ending was probably the best one and he's still technically the most stable support for Javier unless you wanna count Eleanor, but it still pretty much fucks over the point of ANF, Javier, and especially his story arc and more importantly, leaves him with these unnecessary stigmas/restriction on his character.
Hey, I'm glad Gabe can be killed too. I'm just saying I think having a lot more determinant characters is ONE good thing that they learned after slaughtering so many characters in S2. (Regardless of whether or not you like those characters).
Everyone says that he was the best determinant character but in Ep5 he only shows up at the end to read a damn book - what’s the point? In Ep4 he leaves only to then show up again at the end (I guess he’s handled well to an extent). In Ep3 he’s handled well though - he’s integrated into the main story well.
I believe he is one of the best determinant characters along with Carley and Doug, but in Ep4 and especially 5 he barely does anything.
But Ben is the best, as we all know.
Anyway, it's the thought that counts. The issue with Jane and especially Sarah's cases is that there was barely any thought put into them beyond , spite/malicious, confusingly lazy, or hackneyed ones.
In his defense, that's a problem with ANF in general. Max/Lonnie & Joan/Clint completely vanish after episodes 3 & 4 respectively. Considering the last two episodes were completely rewritten, there may have been things involving him that were omitted, but that's just what I think.
As for the book, to me, that's eerie foreshadowing for what will happen in Season 4.
I don't know if I'd call Ben determinant, since he dies regardless. But I do agree that he develops greatly if you let him live til NTL. If he is to be considered determinant, I'd say he's the runner-up to Conrad, for the reasons I just mentioned.
Oh don't even get me started on Sarah... X'(
Because Clem is better in S2
They were planning one or two more scenes with him, including the possibility of dying again, but resources and time constraints meant they just decided to leave it out.
uhhhhh...
To bookend his character arc.
I thought as much. GG, Telltale.
She dead. =(
At the very least, her death made sense and served a purpose, which is better than pretty much everyone besides Ben, David, and Conrad.
True. To me though, Determinant = A character who can live throughout the entire game, depending on your choices.
Anyone else like Carley, Doug, Ben, Nick, Sarah etc. is just delaying the inevitable.
Personally, I don't usually mind as long as it serves a purpose and does [relatively(?))] right by the character.
Except with characters like Gabe. That was just unnecessary and a copout.
Agreed. It's a shame some characters never got a chance to redeem themselves or have their chance to shine.
I would've had Nick sacrifice himself to save Sarah at the balcony, then have her possibly use a gun during the shootout, if Clem taught her how to use one.
I'm just rambling at this point, but that's what talking about TWD does to ya.
I can't help but wonder if that was gonna be the intention at one point before his voice actor was apparently found unavailable?
It also reminds me of a scenario where Troy actually joined the group, but that's something else entirely.
.
If that genuinely was the reason, I am going to be livid. Throwing away two great characters, just because one voice actor wasn't available at the time.
Well, technically, they still really could've done shit with Sarah, especially once you notice all the subtle buildup and relevance to her in that episode, but you know....
Still, while I was personally okay with how they handled Nick and understand why they ended up in that situation since A House Divided, I also understand people feeling cheated about him and that is was disrespectful.
Assuming they killed him for the reason you mentioned, I don't see why they couldn't just get someone else to voice Nick. Ben changed voice actors between the preview for SFH & the final episode. It was just laziness on Telltale, if you ask me.
To be fair, Ben's was changed before his first appearance was completed and available, while Nick had been around for multiple episodes. However, given he doesn't/couldn't say/do much during In Harm's Way, it was still an option they could've taken.
What I meant is that A House Divided made him determinant right before the episode where not only was the Cabin Group's secrets were supposed to be revealed(her her), which was also the episode that had to juggle 22+ characters in roughly 90 minutes, with no established personal beef with Carver like the other 5 or most of what was relevant to his character dealt with. Add in the change in writers, Nick Breckon's plans either not being available or being ignored, and the increased focus on building up the rivalry between Luke and Kenny and it's clear why he barely said, much less did anything in the episode--there wasn't much material or room for him at that point!
Then in an episode that was supposed to be focused on the fallout from escaping Howes, Sarah/Jane getting development, Carlos/Kenny recovering from his own trauma, and the anticipation of Rebecca's baby being born, having his voice actor be unavailable just killed what little interest they might've had in actually having him do stuff at that point.